Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies.

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Getting rid of fair use

I'm seeing this issue come up over and over again. Most wikipedias prohibit fair use. Although I can see legit reasons to include some truly fair use images on en, I've observed that in practice it just leads to a whole lot of problems. A lot of people are claiming fair use for any image that they want to include, regardless of the legitimacy of the claim. A lot of people are spending time arguing over what is/is not fair use. I'm beginning to think that it's really just not worth it and it's greatly reducing the freeness of the english wikipedia. I know that a lot of people will object to depreciating fair use on wikipedia, but I also know that I've heard a lot of people voicing similar concerns to mine. How can we move towards putting this bad idea behind us? Matt 00:37, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for it, with one exception: when the image itself is the subject of an article, such as Raising the Flag on Iwo Jima. --Carnildo 03:59, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Err, that would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If we remove all fair use images, we'll leave a great many articles with no illustrations (perhaps permanently):

• Almost all articles dealing with modern art. This includes basically all movies, TV shows, paintings and other graphic arts, etc.
• Almost all articles dealing with fictional subjects.
• Many articles dealing with aspects of modern history not witnessed by US government photographers. Note that this would probably include all situations where the exact copyright status is unclear (i.e. Nazi photographs).
• And various others.

Aggressively pushing for free content is very good, of course; but let's not forget that we also want to be an encyclopedia, and one that can be competetive with commercial ones. Decimating our image libraries isn't really going to help in this regard. —Kirill Lokshin 05:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

I am not convinced that the "baby" in this case is all that valuable. We might end up with articles without illustration, so what? It would be interesting to see what percent of EB's articles include illustration (I don't know the answer to this). EB's article on Salvador Dalí (from what I can see from [1]) has no images. To say that we need "fair use" to compete with non-free publishers seems to me to be an argument for why a free encyclopedia can't be done. But de.wikipedia.org is doing it, and by most measures has been more succesful than en (unless you measure an encyclopedia by the number of pokemon articles). Matt 17:50, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

EB gets less than 1% of Wikipedia's hits so it is really rather insignificant as a competitor. We are competing with the whole (very well illustrated) www. Osomec 16:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There is so much abuse of the "fair use" that we need a stronger wording that currently exist to discourage uploaders. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

NO! Getting rid of Fair Use will cripple Wikipedia. The IP laws are already restrictive enough, I don't see any reason not to take advantage of the little freedom we are given under law. We should encourage replacing Fair Use images where possible, but there are many instances where it is NOT possible ever (such as articles on video games and movies), where Fair Use is absolutely essential for a good article. Loom91 15:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

It is possible ever -- when the copyrights expire. Wikipedia would survive. It would also be more free, and more reproducable outside the US, both of which are healthy aims. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 15:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Copyrights only expire theoretically—no copyright has expired during the lifetime of Wikipedia. Passage of the Copyright Term Extension Act in 1998 (and its international counterparts), and the failure of legal challenge to it, virtually guarantees that another extension effort will occur before 2019 (the next time that copyrights might expire). Making policy decisions based on the assumption that copyrights will eventually expire seems overly credulous. I think we have to assume that nothing presently copyrighted will ever transfer into the public domain. --TreyHarris 16:31, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I think there's some intermediate choices. We could establish an arbitrary limit, like one-per-article (with some sort of special procedure for granting exceptions). Right now, there's no incentive to make free images, because so many articles are already crammed-full of non-free ones, which are usually "prettier" than the free ones. --Rob 15:37, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree getting stricter on fair use is a decent idea. i disagree with arbitary limits though. Screenshots and suchlike are essential to proper critical commentry on software products.

As for copyrights expiring yes that will happen eventually but for many things probablly not in our lifetimes. ALSO if we get rid of non-free images now then we still won't have them when thier copyrights expire unless someone else archived them! Plugwash 16:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

PD-user Disclaimers??

Why does the {{PD-user}} license have "Subject to disclaimers"? Other PD licenses such as {{PD-self}}, {{PD-old}} and {{No rights reserved}} do not have this disclaimer clause. —Pengo 09:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I had noticed that, but never bothered to say anything. It seems to me that the disclamer notice should be on all of the templates, or none of them. ~Linuxerist L / T 07:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

inappropriate username blocks and summaries

Recently, there has been much debate on the subject of blocking inappropriate usernames. Some administrators are regularly blocking such usernames as per policy, but with undescriptive block summaries. When new users see "user..." as the blocking reason, chances are that they will have no idea why they were blocked. I'm pretty sure that we have already lost potential contributors this way.

So I have been unblocking and reblocking such usernames with more better block reasons, and guess what, someone files an RfC against me for doing so.

I have therefore modified MediaWiki:Blockedtext to reflect this issue and added a link to the username policy. However, I'm not sure if that is enough to keep new contributors from being driven away.

Any thoughts? --Ixfd64 06:03, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

• I'd agree in the sense that a blocking summary should always give some sort of indication why the block took place. Also, where edits are carried out by a bot this should be indicated in the summary as well. (More or less, the same standards that apply to edit summaries should apply to blocking summaries as well.) Christopher Parham (talk) 20:00, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

• The RfC doesn't mention that you've reblocked any of these usernames, or even that the "user..." summary is the big problem. If this is really the issue, why don't you bring it up at the RfC? So far, the RfC seems to be about you unblocking users and not reblocking them. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggest we comment in the appropriate place on the RfC page, as I have. John Reid 19:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm hoping to push through the proposed policy Wikipedia:Censorship. If it suceeds, then we may have a strong case against overturning the username policy itself, which is one of the policies most contrary to the spirit of Wikipedia. Loom91 15:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for making your intentions clear. If further demonstration was needed, this certainly provides enough to doom that "proposal". Wikipedia is not a democracy. Have a nice day. 134.10.12.226 01:22, 25 March 2006 (UTC) (User:JesseW/not logged in)

Future of wiki

If the Board decided to fold, or ran out of money or the servers were seized or destroyed in a fire ... What would happen to wikipedia. What contingency plans are there? Mccready 11:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Good question. I think the short answer is None. The longer answer is that Wikipedia is heavily mirrored; if Florida vanished in a pillar of nuclear flame tomorrow, the project could and would be reconstructed very quickly. But it's not clear who would be the main projector and who the mirrors; the event might lead to all sorts of fragmentation and forking.

This leads to the question, Who owns Wikipedia? I don't speak of the trademark or logo, but the content itself. Since it's all licensed under GFDL, the content may be edited and published by anyone, even for profit. There are both mirrors and forks, even now.

I don't think there's any immediate danger of disaster; relax. Backups are the least of our worries. John Reid 18:19, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

We probobly should promote a mirror to "Official Backup Source" or something just in case Deathawk 23:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

And if the "Official Backup Source" blows up? ...sorry, I'm just a really big pessimist. --Eilu 20:16, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

See meta:Contingency planning for some out of date plans. The content is constantly backed up, and not just by Wikimedia developers, but by anyone downloading the database dumps, so there's no chance of most of that being lost, and the GFDL ensures it will always be freely available regardless of what happens to the Wikimedia Foundation. Angela. 13:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Website articles

AfD gets a significant amount of websites on it. There are obviously people out there who are putting articles on Wikipedia about companies for $$$. These companies will get a Google PageRank boast for being linked to by Wikipedia. So, what I am proposing should deal to that. In the link, put rel="nofollow" so that Google bots know not to follow them. This can be done for all new links in Wikipedia. Then an admin could have the ability to remove the rel="nofollow" tag if they feel that the link is appropiate and not spam. This would reduce the gain from putting adverts on Wikipedia and thus, would reduce the number of adverts. This may require a software change, I don't really know. If it does, then it should be something to be thought about whenever the software is next updated. --Midnighttonight 03:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd never heard of 'rel="nofollow"' so I googled around to educate myself. It's explained here for example. (Actually, rather misexplained, as the article almost consistently uses the word "attribute" to mean not "attribute" but "value". The attribute is "rel"; what's proposed is a new understanding of the value "nofollow".) Putting aside software issues and the extra work it would mean for admins, this seems a superb idea. What I worry about, though, is the scope it would give for actual spammers, fanboy near-spammers, innocent apparent spammers and jes' plain good folks for banging on about how this or that link should be "de-nofollowed", and how this or that admin has behaved capriciously or unfairly in "de-nofollowing" link X and not link Y. -- Hoary 06:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the attribute is rel="nofollow". The attribute name is rel. </pedant> · rodii ·

I can see where you're coming from, but how much of a boost to a site's google ranking will one link from wikipedia actually give it? Before proceeding with this idea we need to decide if the problem is great enough to merit the extra work for Wikipedians that would result. Are there any particulary bad examples of abuse you can point to.Quarkstorm 14:03, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

A highly ranked site like Wikipedia can add a lot to a site's pagerank. The nofollow idea seems like a good one to me, but be warned, it's been discussed before: see [2], [3] and see especially Jimbo's position on it [4]. Based on that discussion, it just seems like it's not going to happen, though perhaps the case could be made that the situation has changed since the last time this was seriously considered. · rodii · 16:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think this would mean a lot of extra work for admins. We should concentrate more on things like vandalism. Every Wikipedian dreams of this perfect online encyclopedia, including me, but the fact tha anyone can edit it is not making it happen. So, let's be realistic and instead of putting admins to work on articles no one is going to read, admins should work on stuff like vandalism. After all, the whole pt. of wikipedia is to inform.Btw check out Portal:Rock and Roll, or better yet, help out Osbus 02:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Spacing of Disambig messages

I wanted clarification on how to space disambig messages on top of articles. It's been my preference to move them to the very top; so that articles like Benedict Arnold have their image moved down so it is in line with the text of the article, and the Disambig text is across the top. But I have come across this style so much; I'm wondering what the consensus was/is on this minor issue. - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 20:06, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you mean hatnotes (at the top), not disambig messages (at the bottom). Anyway, yes the hatnote line goes after the image in the editbox, so that the resulting text is contained in the same area as the text below it.

--William Allen Simpson 15:24, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Policies on Plot Summary

I've been around Wikipedia's articles on fictional things for a while, and I have become curious about the idea of plot summary.
1. Is there a policy on it?

2. I usually just make a very basic sentence or two on the plot of a work of fiction (IE "Don Quixote is about the misadventures of a man obsessed with the romanticized ideals of knighthood"), and then either leave the rest alone, or if it's a big topic of fan discussion, make a spoiler section. Is there any problem with this, according to policy?

3. I will sometimes see on Wikpedia articles, in the case of a TV series, a summary of every single episode (Example: Mushishi. Or, for example, if you go to Terminator 2 you will see that the plot of the movie has been spelled out in fairly high detail. Is there any problem with this, according to policy?
--Zaorish 16:52, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

No. That's what Template:Spoiler is for. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:28, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Is that "No" to all three questions? Please explain yourself a little bit more.　I know about spoiler policy already, I'm asking if really long plot summaries are discouraged or not.--Zaorish 20:41, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

"No" to all of your questions. User:Zoe|^(talk) 07:13, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no reason to discourage comprehensive plot summaries. That's absurd.--Sean Black ^(talk) 20:43, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I was not asking your personal opinion on comprehensive plot summaries. I was asking what the POLICY is/if there is a POLICY. Thanks.--Zaorish 20:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no policy discouraging comprehensive plot summaries.--Sean Black ^(talk) 20:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks--Zaorish 22:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Does RFC have any value anymore?

Recent events have led to a number of flame-prone RFCs. What I was wondering is, does RFC even have any meaning? The original point of RFC was to establish a community consensus about a particular situation or course of conduct, but most of the 'user conduct' RFCs now are about admins ignoring consensus/process - and surely if an admin (or anyone else, but most of the recent ones have been admins) is in fact ignoring consensus/process they will also ignore the outcome of an RFC (which is, after all, about consensus and process).

Unless something is done with RFC to give it some 'effect' or 'teeth', we might as well scrap it and put stuff straight into RFAr - after all thats where just about all RFCs end up going, since RFC is currently incapable of actually doing anything about the situation unless the subject of the RFC decides to listen to his/her opponents (and if they were prone to doing that, there wouldn't be a dispute, would there?). Anyone got any opinions on this? Cynical 19:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

It's an excessively slow, cumbersome and unpleasant process. I can't see why anyone bothers with it. It might as well be scrapped. Osomec 00:57, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You can't scrap it. People need a place to whinge about other users, and if you take away RfC, they'll still find another page to do that on. The change of name from Wikipedia:Annoying users to Wikipedia:Problem users to WP:RFC didn't really change the fact that the page rarely has any outcome other than some discussion about how annoying or problematic some user is. Angela. 13:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why people think it's so useless. RfC can establish consensus. If someone violates a strong concensus that can amount to disruption which can be blocked for. So RfC's can have some teeth if the consensus is strong enough. If it's not then the RfC wasn't a useful one in the first place and other methods would have worked. But in a few cases with Marmot and others, the RfC effectively established a consensus against a user's actions and enforcing it was successful with the minimum disruption I think. - Taxman ^Talk 14:56, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

And then you get the problem of deciding what 'consensus' is - and most RFCs end up in the 'grey area' which is then exploited by both sides for the purposes of further flaming Cynical 22:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Then obviously you don't have a consensus to enforce. But maybe there are individual behaviors that are disruptive or violate policies and consensus can be established for those. If that really can't be done, there probably wasn't a problem in the first place that mediation or something else wouldn't have been better for. And deciding consensus is what uninvolved admins do. Yeah technically we only have some extra tools, but if we see a consensus X behaviour violates a policy and the user knows that and does it anyway, they can be blocked to enforce the consensus. - Taxman ^Talk 23:12, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Occam's WP Razor

Sometimes proponents of a particular person or view manage to create an imposing array of links out of one website, by linking to various portions of the website. Usually seems to be a ploy to inflate the importance of something, or increase the chances that a reader will visit the site.

In cleaning one particular nest of such links, I came up with a maxim, which I would like to propose for general use:

Occam's WP Razor -- do not multiply links without necessity.

Zora 23:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Create a bot that will add this (as a HTML comment) just under every "==External links==".

More seriously, Wikipedia software should be able to record links added into an article in the past, highlight (or not allow) those that were removed before, show collection of articles containing link to given website together with information when they were added and so on. Pavel Vozenilek 21:41, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Wiki Ethics is being voted on

There is a proposed policy on ethics for wikipedia editors being voted on here. Please offer opinions. ॐ Metta Bubble ^puff 00:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

That Talk page is hilarious. User:Zoe|^(talk) 07:23, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

New guideline for Wikipedia:Logos

I'd like to propose that the following be added to the list of guidelines at Wikipedia:Logos: "Corporate logos outside of infoboxes should always have captions." There have been concerns that proposing this at Wikipedia talk:Logos is insufficent, so I'm making the proposal here as well. Ensuring that corporate logos have captions will further support the existing guideline "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote the company." Like most other images, corporate logos should have captions. Kurieeto 12:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Use of Internet Polls and User Vote Ratings in Articles

I believe that Wikipedia should establish some official policy on the inclusion of internet polls and ratings (such as IMDB ratings) in articles. The lack of such a policy is currently leading to a fierce debate on Talk:9-11: The Road to Tyranny. I myself have a few ideas, but I'd really like a broad spectrum of opinions on the matter. My Proposed Guidelines:

• Use ratings and polls sparingly to illustrate points about otherwise immeasurable public opinion. In this case, a disclaimer of some sort should be written into the article. (this needs more elaboration)
• No internet poll should be used when a more scientific poll can be found.

• Some cut-off for particpation in a poll should be established for inclusion (I don't have a specific number in mind but maybe 100 or 1000 or even 25 if the community finds that sufficient)
• Use only polls from well-known sources.

Cool3 23:28, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

T1 clarification proposal

I originally had this on the WT:CSD, but robchurch recommended that I move it to the village pump to get a wider range of opinions.

T1 is so ambiguous that nobody can agree what it means. This has caused a lot of undesirable wikiFriction as of late. If we can clarify T1, maybe we can all cool down a bit. Thus, I propose that T1 be broken into subsections that specifically state what is and what is not acceptable, with examples. For instance, T1 should state specifically whether the following controversial beliefs are acceptable in templates:

• Controversial political beliefs (ex. "this user hates George Bush")
  • General political statements that are phrased in such a way that they are only an indication of possible bias (ex. "this user has liberal political views")
• Controversial wikipedia-related beliefs (ex. "this user thinks consensus should govern all parts of wikipedia" or "this user supports pure deletion")
• Religious beliefs (ex. "this user is Christian")
• Controversial beliefs regarding other cultures (ex. "this user thinks American English sucks")
• Controversial violent beliefs (ex. "this user supports the violent overthrow of the regime of Saudi Arabia")
• Controversial identity beliefs (ex. "this user is gay")
• Attack templates (ex. "this user thinks that stupid admins should start respecting the community and following policy")
• Beliefs considered almost universally offensive (ex. "this user is a cannibal")
• Condescending beliefs (ex. "this user thinks x and thinks that everyone that doesn't think x is wrong and will go to hell")
• Controversial moral beliefs (ex. "this user supports abortion")

Such a reformed policy should also include a statement that templates that do not fall into the above categories should be decided by the TFD process. Personally, I think that if such a system were to be put into place, all of the above except for wikipedia related beliefs and general political statements that are only meant to help inform people of possible bias should be allowed. What do you people think of the matter? Where ^(talk) 04:04, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

• It makes sense to me. - File:Ottawa flag.png nathanrdotcom ^{(T • C • W)} 04:07, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I think what you're looking for is a policy, not (a) speedy delete criteria(on). --AySz88^-^ 04:09, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. What you propose is extreme instruction creep. That a template is divisive/inflammatory is readily apparent from the reaction to it, I can't see how we could make it simpler. --Gmaxwell 04:25, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Userbox_debates seems to indicate to me that different people can get different opinions on whether something is divisive or not. This T1, may require clarification. Where ^(talk) 04:29, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Support. The vagueness and misinterpretations of T1 have caused much WikiFuss and opened doors to abuse by certain people. Misza13 ^{T C} 23:05, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Support. There have been (and will probably still be) wheel wars about these templates (unless all the Admins interested in doing this are in personal RfC or RfAr, and under orders not to do it.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 17:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, I don't understand why you include homosexuality as a "controversial identity beliefs". So uncontroversial identity beliefs are okay? That seems awful ... I dunno ... tyranny of the majority. The fact of the matter is that homosexuality is only a "controversial identity belief" because there are some incredibly bigoted people out there in the world. Homosexuality occurs naturally throughout nature in a wide variety of different animals; it should be no more controversial than saying, "This user is a biped" or "This user has two eyes". But enough about homosexuality. I'd rather see a much simpler solution that clarifies the purpose of templates and categories. See Wikipedia:Proposed template and category usage policy. I think that'd be a lot less ambiguous than trying to work on T1 which is trying to make a decision about which unencyclopedic templates are acceptable and which aren't. Getting rid of all the unencyclopedic templates is a much simpler solution and doesn't allow anyone to claim bias, like I just did with the homosexuality example. --Cyde Weys 02:04, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Very good points. However, banning all uncyclopedic templates, even those that have to do with writing Wikipedia and the Wikipedia community, seems a little harsh. Where ^(talk) 11:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Censorship policy

I recently came upon the quite brilliant article Wikipedia:Censorship. I think it's one of the policy's we need most immediately. How can it be made into a policy from a proposed policy? Loom91 15:13, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

That requires a consensus to adopt. As the poll on the talk page currently stands at 22 'for' and 17 'opposed', a consensus does not exist. -- Donald Albury^(Talk) 17:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

How many opposes (or what oppose:support ratio) is the maximum acceptable? Surely we don't need 0 opposes? Loom91 18:42, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to change Wikipedia policy, I suggest you familiarise yourself with existing policy first. See Wikipedia:Consensus. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 19:46, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

For myself, I would like to say that the method is not innocent. The subject is truly important : there is one talk page and twoscore people discussing auto censorship for one million (counting non active users). Will you give your advice ? --DLL 20:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Blocking Policy Proposal

Please see WP:BPP for a new Blocking Policy Proposal. Werdna648^T/_C\^@ 05:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Is there a policy concerning Movie Trivia?

I've been noticing in some movie pages, that trivia sections have gotten out of control. Even after editing the Wallace & Gromit: The Curse of the Were-Rabbit References, background jokes, and in-jokes section, to delete trivia listings with questionable or unverifiable sources, there are still some folks trying to add two pieces of trivia that is questionable (in one case) or have two possible sources, neither of which can trump the other due to no sources cited other than wikipedia articles (in the other case). I know the policy on Citing sources, but some of the trivia from movies sometimes is hard to verify, or is more of an easter egg type of a deal meant to be in there as clever jabs or in-jokes.

Is there a policy regarding such items, or should there be one? --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There is wikipedia:trivia. The talk page of that essay also contains a fairly recent village pump discussion, generally supporting to avoid abundance of trivia. There is another village pump discussion, archived earlier this month here (sort of proposing to put trivia on separate pages - there wasn't too much enthousiasm to see that as a possible solution) --Francis Schonken 10:39, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

There is also the verifiability policy, which applies to all Wikipedia content, and which does not set a lower standard for items just because they are "popular culture" or "just fun." One needs to be reasonable, but items that are just unsourced assertions that are presumably just something that the contributor remembers (or thinks they remember) can be tagged with a {{fact}} tag, and removed eventually if no source is forthcoming. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Am I in trouble?

A while ago, I wrote a stub for the upcoming Al Pacino film 88 Minutes. I glanced at the "What links here" section for it today and saw that it was proposed for deletion and was deleted back in October. Am I in any trouble for re-creating a deleted article? (Hopefully not, because the current one is copyvio-free, which was the cause of the older one's deletion.) I want to make sure I'm not breaking any Wikipedia policies here by doing this, albeit by accident. Thanks. --Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 09:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• Oh yes, in deep deep trouble. :-) No seriously, since the previous revisions were deleted for being blatant copyvios and your version is a good effort which addresses that concern, I see no problems at all with you writing up a new article here. Indeed, thanks for doing so. The copyvio versions should not be undeleted however. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

*Okay, good. Thanks. I was worried there for a sec because I remember instances of people re-creating deleted articles and getting flogged (virtually speaking). Whew. :) Buchanan-Hermit™..CONTRIBS..SPEAK! 09:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

It's only a problem to recreate articles that are flawed for the same reasons the deleted one was. Even then, it doesn't mean the author's really in trouble. It's just that the article's more likely to be deleted and may even be speedied if there's a very close resemblance. Don't worry. Superm401 - Talk 15:11, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Citing sources

I recently added and corrected information on a page, then got reverted because I did not give any references. Is it okay to do such reversions? And if so, why do I have to give references, but do previous editors of the same page not have to do the same? - Andre Engels 14:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

If somebody doubts unsourced information, it is ok to remove it (whether they should do it immediately or give a lengthy warning with the "fact" or "verify" tag, depends on the circumstances of the case). I suggest, simply add back the info, with sources. Also, the lack of referencing in the past, is not a good reason to repeat the problem in the future. --Rob 14:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. What happened is exactly what should happen to improve our information quality. Getting information in should require Wikipedia:Reliable references. We're hitting, possibly aided by the negative publicity from the Siegenthaler incident, a tipping point where editors are realizing additions need to be verifiable to be valuable. - Taxman ^Talk 15:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Very well, I'll go through the recent changes and revert all unreferenced changes... - Andre Engels 15:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Even better, I go and put most of my articles up for deletion, most aren't referenced, and those that are have claims added before or after they were. - Andre Engels 15:26, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Or, you could move implausible, unsourced article edits to the article's talk page, and note that they should be returned to the article when supported by verifiable external sources. This is less likely to be perceived as insulting or obnoxious by other editors, and also less likely to get you blocked for violating WP:POINT. Please don't construe poor etiquette or editing practices by other editors as a license to engage in bad behaviour yourself. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:41, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, at least now I know that it's considered poor etiquette... And others that it's a stupid thing to do. - Andre Engels 15:45, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please do revert/remove claims you're skeptical of. It's not a perfect system but it's a step towards verifiability, which is vital. Superm401 - Talk 15:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, now it's only claims you're skeptical about that should be reverted? And are you supposed to tell which claims you're skeptical about, or is it okay to just revert everything someone wrote? - Andre Engels 15:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have done that of course. But I do state which claims I'm skeptical of, and why, and do not give as my reason for being skeptic that they're unreferenced or that the editor made some other error in the same edit. - Andre Engels 15:50, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi André,

• This series of edits might seem OK at first sight, apart from not taking advantage of Wikipedia's latest cite.php technology (explained at wikipedia:footnotes), nor of the older "by template" technology explained at wikipedia:footnote3, for harvard references. Nonetheless, the four references you made on that page are none of them compliant to WP:V/WP:CITE/wikipedia:reliable sources - in fact they're self-references, qualified as "to be avoided". The fact that they're self-references to non-English parts of the wikipedia encyclopedia doesn't improve their self-reference status (additionally, the way you wrote them down they're not even complying to Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English). See also a recent talk here: Wikipedia talk:Citing sources#The leap-frogged citations problem.
  • My goodness. I have searched two books, read through them to find whether they actually mentioned the facts I stated (I would have wanted more but most of personal library happens to be in moving and several others are in Dutch or German), and now it's still not good because I cited them wrong style? I get sick with you all. - Andre Engels 16:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    Sorry, should've been more precise. Here are the 5 references you inserted in History of Australia before 1901

    • [1]: 132.162.208.117: [[:fr:Binot Paulmier de Gonneville]], 2006. French Wikipedia
    • [2]: Raymond John Howgego: Encyclopedia of Exploration to 1800, 2003. Potts Point NSW: Hordern House. ISBN 1-875567-36-4
    • [3]: Eric Newby: The Rand Mc.Nally World Atlas of Exploration, 1975. London: Mitchell Bezley. ISBN 528-83015-5
    • [4]: [[User:Adam Carr|Adam Carr]]: [[Binot Paulmier de Gonneville]], 2003-6. Wikipedia
    • [5]: [[User:Smallweed|Smallweed]], 210.9.139.131: [[Nicolas Baudin]], 2003-6. Wikipedia

    [2] and [3] are of course OK (the technology issue mentioned above is not really important); still a minor issue: there's a typo in the Newby ISBN: it should be ISBN 0528830155, not 528830155 (leaving out a zero makes it rather hard to find this book by ISBN)

    [1] is not OK (self reference to French wikipedia, has the faults as indicated).

    [4] and [5] are plain self-references to English wikipedia, as a "source citation" at least leap-frogged (and then, only provided that the Binot Paulmier de Gonneville and the Nicolas Baudin article have source references on the issue you want to point to). Not OK w.r.t. WP:V, WP:CITE, Wikipedia:Reliable sources as indicated. --Francis Schonken 17:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    • Look, that changes a lot. You said all 4 were not ok. Now suddenly 2 out of 5 'are of course ok. Could you be a bit more precise before you make me angry next time? - Andre Engels 17:31, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

      • Again, apologies. Could you nonetheless consider improving the three questionable ones (+ the typo in [3])? --Francis Schonken 17:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
        • No. 5 can simply be removed, because the fact stated by it (that Baudin circumnavigated Australia around the same time as Flinders) is also given by 3. For no. 1 (Gonneville's full name) I could probably find something on the web; if not, then we can use (2) - it does not give the full name, but it does give the part that I changed. Only for the '6 weeks' I have no further reference, so should I take that part out? - Andre Engels 17:54, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

  • So I really need to get a primary source before I may say that Luis Vaez de Torres was on the expedition of Pedro Fernández de Quirós rather than the other way around? Is Wikipedia going to pay for the costs of getting a 17th century book borrowed by my university library from another library? - Andre Engels 16:15, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Your combative attitude here is not helpful. How about take a step back and consider the best interests of the project. People are just suggesting improvements, they're not saying your references without the best style are not helpful. Hopefully you can see that the WP:POINT violations and disruption you have proposed above (Starting with "very well" and "even better") is not a good idea without us telling you. But they are bad because they are disruptive and therefore not helpful, not because the whole idea as we have explained it to you is bad. It's a method, and like anything else has to be done well in order to not offend. But in the end, information quality is the most important. - Taxman ^Talk 17:04, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
      • I agree with you about the disruption. My apologies about that. But to declare sources like "Encyclopedia of Exploration to 1800" suspect is not going to help us improve the quality of information. Except by ensuring that this fool is not going to add any information any more, perhaps. - Andre Engels 17:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
        • But that's a different issue, one of reference quality. If you cite a source with your edit and somebody reverts it without a) showing you mis-cited the source b) citing a higher quality source that refutes it or c) showing the information is irrelevant, then they are in the wrong. In either case, discussion is the answer and if someone can't substantiate their position with sources, they should conceded the point. So in that case, if you cite a source and it is reverted they are in the wrong unless they can justify their position. But since you hold the stronger position, you can afford not to revert right away and just be patient. The correct position will typically gain support on the talk page. - Taxman ^Talk 18:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
          • Let's close this off, it was based on a misunderstanding of what Francis was saying. - Andre Engels 23:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    "So I really need to get a primary source before I may say that Luis Vaez de Torres was on the expedition of Pedro Fernández de Quirós rather than the other way around?" – if that is matter of dispute: yes (apart that it doesn't need to be a primary source: in fact wikipedia steers for secondary – but nontheless external – sources, per WP:NOR). Otherwise, add the {{fact}} tag.

    • And how do I know what is matter of dispute and what is not? - Andre Engels 17:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

      Some indicators about "dispute":

      • someone reverts it, unless that's a clear case of vandalism, it might be assumed that the info you inserted is at least "disputed" by one other person. If you insert an acceptable reference, the one who reverted you would be making the fault.
      • If you're acquainted with the literature on the topic you're describing, you might also know from there which issues are "under dispute" in literature, then give sources, preferably at least for the major plausible versions of the facts you want to present. --Francis Schonken 17:44, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
        • But in this case there were close to 10 different changes I made, many of them unrelated to each other, so am I to assume they are all matter of dispute? - Andre Engels 17:49, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    "Is Wikipedia going to pay for the costs of getting a 17th century book borrowed by my university library from another library?" – no, it is you who want to insert info in wikipedia. Then, provide a reference. Whether that "reference" is a 17th century book only available in libraries, or an e-book (e.g.) available at Project Gutenberg is your choice. --Francis Schonken 17:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

    • No, it is not. You are the one saying I cannot use any secondary works as resources. But don't worry, there are 18th century books too, so why should you care? - Andre Engels 17:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

      • Sorry just saw you made the remark about the primary sources; wikipedia's policy is to use preferably secondary sources, but that doesn't include self-references, so I inserted a remark above. --Francis Schonken 17:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
        • Apologies accepted. Also my apologies for shooting out so loud... I'm getting angry much too easily in cases like this. - Andre Engels 17:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• This one maybe, but without doubt this one (emptying a complete page) are rather disrupting wikipedia to illustrate a point (don't!). The point you're apparently trying to make is that the "remove unsourced material" allowed by WP:V, is no good in your opinion. Maybe it isn't. Then discuss at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. But don't go emptying pages by way of belligerent reaction. Emptying of pages is reverted by bots [5]. There are more suitable ways to demonstrate that bots can do useful jobs ;-)

--Francis Schonken 15:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

• Sheesh! This guy is a former steward and sysop, just so everyone knows. I refer him to Wikipedia:Common sense. --W.marsh 17:29, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
  • So what's your point? Is there in common sense something I should have done differently (not re-revert when reverted, not give references when asked for it, just ignore people here?) - Andre Engels 17:33, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. --W.marsh 17:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

So which one? - Andre Engels 17:38, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty confident you know the answer to that without asking. - Taxman ^Talk 18:28, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no. They all seem pretty pointless (just allowing myself to be reverted won't improve Wikipedia, not giving sources when asked for it seems very uncivil and uncooperative and ignoring people here I won't even go into) - Andre Engels 08:08, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

You've answered part of it, so you did mostly know the answer. You shouldn't revert back right away until you discuss and provide references. The stronger position will prevail so you can wait a little bit. Waiting doesn't mean you never add back the material, just give time for agreement. There are few things that need to be reverted right away. Of course you give the sources as we've discussed. That solves all the problems here. - Taxman ^Talk 14:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, may I conclude that:

• Unreferenced edits may be reverted
• This should only be done if there is a reason to doubt, not just because it is unreferenced
• It is okay to ask what point or points someone wants referenced before having to delve into books and provide them.
• ? - Andre Engels 23:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Although WP:V adds some more "ifs and buts" I think you gave a pretty good summary of the central ideas. Just still wanted to recommend the use of the {{fact}} template instead of deletion (if no outrageous unreferenced claims are made): if you're the one being asked to give references you know immediately what the potential doubts are about; if you're the one having doubts you don't have to return a second time to explain what exactly your doubts were about. --Francis Schonken 00:15, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Your second point Andre is true, that should be the case, but the burden is still on the person wanting to include the information. If someone's being disruptive about it, handle the disruption separately (through dispute resolution, etc), but still provide the sources as that makes the article better anyway. And yes you're free to ask what points they dispute, but then anyone is still free to remove anything they disagree with that you didn't cite. - Taxman ^Talk 14:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

As soon as it becomes pervasive that people reallize more and better research trumps lesser sources, then disputes will end quicker and be more useful because they will result in higher quality content due to the research. The person with the better source should always prevail and other editors should support that until another better source or new information is provided. Removing well sourced information without either consensus or a better source is disruptive and should be handled as such. And like anything else, we shouldn't view this as a battle field, but a collaborative effort. - Taxman ^Talk 14:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

One point. I would have wanted more but most of personal library happens to be in moving and several others are in Dutch or German. This seems to imply that you fear sources in Dutch or German would be thought of as less suitable or credible than, or wouldn't be valued as highly as, those in English. They'd certainly be less convenient for a large percentage (for Dutch, an overwhelming percentage) of people reading the articles, but they'd be fine all the same, I believe (and hope). -- Hoary 05:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Sources in languages other than English (I already linked to that section of the "reliable sources" guideline above) --Francis Schonken 09:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No double standards

I've been concerned lately with double standards in regards to categorization. By categorizing some groups specially and not others, we essentially center around specific groups. For instance, we have categories for "Women scientists" and "Women cricketers", where we don't have "Men scientists" or "Men cricketers", because that's seemingly "redudant". This appears to be a clear androcentric bias.

Likewise, we make classifications such as "Category:American children", but not for "French elderly", "Middle-aged Germans", etc. The term "child" is problematic since there is no world standard, and generic classifications of children are also a temporal problem because categories aren't supposed to represent people as they are now, but as they've ever been (e.g. we classify former presidents as if they're current presidents, actors as actors after they've retired, etc. without making any temporal distinction), which would mean that in order to be consistent (call this retentive if you'd like) we would need to classify anyone who grew up in the United States as "American children". I'd like to see Wikipedia apply the same standards to everyone with regard to categories, whether that means removing existing ones or creating new ones to stay consistent and NPOV.

Thoughts? Sarge Baldy 21:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality – would that be helpful? --Francis Schonken 21:52, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, yes, thanks. I see that a number of people share my concerns. The only problem is that Wikipedia:Categorization is only a guideline, where I think it needs to be turned into a specific policy, or seen as falling under current NPOV policy. Sarge Baldy 21:59, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you could successfully handle it under NPOV. Your points are exactly right, and those are biases. It's probably meant to counteract a perceived bias, but it's not the right way to go about it. A few of those could be defended under the position that they are know particularly for being something, as Curie is known for being a woman scientist in a time there weren't many. I believe that can be solved by simply requiring evidence. - Taxman ^Talk 14:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The number of redlinks as category examples in Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality suggest to me that its guidance is not being followed? Is there another policy which has superseded, or is it just a case of CfD votes not being bound to other guidelines' terms? --TreyHarris 18:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Avoid the M-word

I've come to the conclusion that most uses of the word "meatpuppet" on Wikipedia, especially on AfD, are inappropriate.

Many contributors start out as "meatpuppets". That is, people who just read Wikipedia will often get the idea to start editing because a "vote" or discussion like AfD shows up on a topic they care about. This was the case for me, for example. Such people should be as welcome as any other newbies, and their first experience in Wikipedia-space shouldn't be that they're being called names.

Note that I'm not saying we have to let anonymous and new users vote-stack on AfD! It is perfectly possible to disregard those votes, and to explain why we're disregarding those votes, without saying "Go away, meatpuppet".

It seems that we've tolerated this form of newbie-biting for far too long. Thoughts? rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 02:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the term because I tend to associate it with its alternate meaning (aka, the Jim Henson) Raul654 02:26, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm one of those editors that turned up the intensity of their participation here after being called a meatpuppet, in so many words (in Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Checkerboard_Nightmare, my vote was struck through and discounted even though I had about 80 edits at the time). I didn't really like being called that but I realised that maybe the answer back was to build up some history here, make some good contributions, and campaign against certain things (like strikeouts in these sorts of discussions, I remain convinced they are terrifically bad) which I've been doing. The question I have is, for every editor like me that turns up his contributions (and I flatter myself to think I've done some good work here although I don't have a rack of barnstars to prove it), how many are chased away entirely? So ya, dump the term. ++Lar: t/c 02:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hear hear. I have been put off by how disrespectfully this is used in AfD discussions, and how often it's used to avoid responding to the arguments the "meatpuppets" raise. · rodii · 03:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree also. Perhaps we should make an amendment to WP:NPA explicitly discouraging the "M word." --TantalumTelluride 03:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Either there or maybe WP:BITE? It is more of a biting thing than an explicit attack but it's pejoratively connotated. ++Lar: t/c 04:14, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that makes sense. By the way, whether it's incorporated as part of WP:BITE or WP:NPA, its addition should definitely be discussed on the respective talk page beforehand. The caretakers of all those policy pages always want to thoroughly discuss even the smallest of edits. --TantalumTelluride 04:40, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Correction: Actually, WP:BITE isn't an official policy. Anyway, you get the point. --TantalumTelluride 04:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey, it's already policy! The statement "Do not call such users meatpuppets; be civil." has been at the end of Wikipedia:Sock puppetry#Meatpuppets since January 8, 2006, and that page is policy. It seems we just need to draw more users' attention to it. I've proposed adding it to WP:BITE. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 06:54, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that section is (was) that, while it ended with a tacked-on note not to use the "M-word", the very same word was used in the section title and the first paragraph. The message this sent was contradictory to say the least. I've now edited the section not to use the word "meatpuppet" outside the cautionary paragraph. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 18:37, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't really think the message was contradictory -- the term is only uncivil if it is used against a specific editor or group of editors. We can refer generally to the reality that meatpuppets exist, but to (potentially unfairly) ascribe a certain intent to a specific editor whose mind we cannot read is inappropriate. Christopher Parham (talk) 14:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd say civility problem isn't about potentially unfair characterization, but simply the fact that "meatpuppet" as a word can sound extremely offensive and its implications can be insulting even in cases where the definition given at WP:SOCK is technically satisfied. However the "local jargon" may define it, in a general context the word seems to imply a "person" who is entirely devoid of intelligence or free will, mindlessly obeying the will of their "puppet master". I don't think that's what we want to call new editors, even behind their back (since they may still overhear). —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Having recently become inadvertently embroiled in a set of... let's say "interesting" discussions with a new and very wordy user after I noted a suspicion of m.../s... puppets when an AfD was flooded with unsigned comments (which all turned out to be from the one user unfamiliar with Wikipedia-space) I'll be more careful about using it in future. But when the sysops of a web forum / BBS etc. tell their members to head over and bombard an AfD because their site is up for deletion, that is still Meatpuppetry. Trying to create a new term for this may or may not work. Rational, intelligent potential new editors caught up in such will recognize why their actions were wrong if they stick around long enough. Partly due to my above experience I have drafted and proposed WP:EARLY (see below) Deizio 03:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

My use of meatpuppet is the fairly specific (and, without a BBS or a clear admission on talk pages, quite difficult to prove) accusation that someone is just permitting their account or IP to be used without independent thought. I therefore believe it to be a legitimate term, although most uses of it are inappropriate, and (like any other unproven and defamatory accusation) uncivil. Septentrionalis 14:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

The problem I see is that even if that accusation -- that someone is allowing their account to be used without independent thought -- is false, that person's account is still in almost all these cases being used without a sufficient understanding of what it's being used for. Example: User X creates an article on an unencylopedic subject -- say, a dictionary definition for a neologism he invented yesterday. When it's put up for deletion, X goes to his LiveJournal. "Help!" he cries. "Those nasty Wikipedians are going to delete the article on $NEOLOGISM because they don't think it's a useful term!" User Y reads this and thinks "What are they thinking? Of course it's a useful term! Anyone can see that! I'm going to go over there and sign up for an account so I can give them a piece of my mind and help to keep the article alive!" Now, User Y is clearly acting independently -- he read User X's description of the situation and, based on that, made an independent decision to act. But because he's coming in based on a false description of what the argument is all about, and without any of the independent experience of Wikipedia which would allow him to recognize User X's description as completely incorrect, his input is unlikely to be one bit more helpful to the discussion than that of an actual meatpuppet -- a user who simply obeys User X when User X says "Go here and type this in."

So if we deprecate the use of "meatpuppet" to indicate a user of this kind, then how do we communicate unambiguously that just having an independent belief that the article should be kept is not enough, not when that belief doesn't come from an experienced and independent assessment? (I've always preferred the term "run-in voters", myself...) -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

spoiler policy

Excuse me if this has been discussed elsewhere. At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_Crying_of_Lot_49 I've been questioning the need for a spoiler. Is there 'pedia policy page on the spoiler? --Maas 04:32, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

No policy against it, just guidelines on how to politely handle it at Wikipedia:Spoiler warning to give those who wish to avert their eyes a chance to do so. As those on the Lot 49 talk page told you, you can't write an encyclopedia article about a work of fiction without describing its content. Relevant information about an article's topic will always be included, which includes what Soylent Green really is, and who shot JR. Postdlf 17:41, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting juxtaposition (that batch of Soylent Green was probably pretty oily). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I wonder how "Who turned J.R. into soylent green" would have gone over as a cliffhanger. Then he could have surprised everyone by coming back in the shower with Bobby. Postdlf 00:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Burgeoning templates

I suggested {{See also}} for deletion, and before the day was out the TfD had been removed, debate closed, as speedy keep. All this without giving me a chance to respond to some of those voting (who admitted that they didn't understand my point — perhaps because, as editors hanging round the template pages, they're so used to them that they don't understand the problems faced by other users).

I suggested it for TfD in part because, after I'd posted a comment making the same point to Template talk:See also, after some time the only response had been one that agreed with me. It seems to me that the "speedy keep" was precipitate at best. The template is frankly absurd; it offers virtually no advantages over creating a "see also" section manually, and simply places another obstacle in the way of casual or occasional editors (who are perfectly capable of adding a bulleted link to a section, but have no wish to look up the template in order to work out how to use it. It seems to me that there's a regrettable tendency in Wikipedia to replace simple editing methods with geeky ones. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:43, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that some templates are way too simple. Is it more convenient to type {{Main|Wikipedia}} or :Main article:[[Wikipedia]]? Too many silly templates on a source page can intimidate new users. As a matter of fact, I would have started editing Wikipedia several months before I did if I hadn't been turned away by all the confusing templates. I didn't know how they worked, and I was afraid to edit around them. All those templates do encourage consistent style throughout the encyclopedia, though, so it will probably be hard to change the current trend. --TantalumTelluride 01:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

See? I forgot to italicize that manual version of {{Main}}. It should actually be :''Main article:[[Wikipedia]]''. If I were editing a real article, I might not have noticed my mistake. --TantalumTelluride 01:48, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but once you'd noticed, what you needed to do was obvious — part of standard Wiki-markup. We can't legislate against typos and mistakes (you could just as easily make a mistake typing the template). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:16, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

That's true. I don't really know what the rationale is behind such simple templates, but it seems like they're always speedy keeps at WP:TFD. --TantalumTelluride 21:55, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The idea is that if the standard elements of the article are in a template it is very easy to modify them all at once. If a graphics designer will decide that the Main article should be bolded, or highlighted by color or by a glyph or put on the right side of the article, or whatever; then he or she should only modify the template. If the standard element is supported by a convention instead of a template, then such modification requires huge efforts with such tool as AWB and will pollute unmeasurable number of the Watchlists. What I would like to see is to have a button on the edit toolbox that has some sort of list of the most usable templates, so that a user would need only a couple of the mouse-clicks to insert a template. abakharev 00:32, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

WP:OFFICE intro section

I have added an introdutory section to WP:OFFICE, attempting to better explain what it's all about (and perhaps reduce the number of people confused about it). However, since the lead section will probably end up being taken as the "official" version, I would like for as many people as possible to review it and make it as clear and as close to the real policy as possible. --cesarb 02:11, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I rewrote it somewhat; my edit summary was pretty comprehensive, so I'll just repeat it here. "Rewrote introduction (removed quote, unneeded for statement of facts), made info about Danny more concise, added reason for actions (legal problems, libel, etc), added "deliberate"". // Pathoschild (_admin / ^talk) 03:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Are my changes to Transwiki article acceptable?

I have made changes to the Transwiki log article to reflect the new Proposed Deletion method. I'd like someone more experienced than myself to check to see if this sounds reasonable. Mostly what I'm looking for feedback on is the whole idea of using Proposed Deletion instead of just AfD, as the article originally suggested. This link should show what I've altered: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ATranswiki_log&diff=44923533&oldid=40396538 --Xyzzyplugh 08:23, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Image fair use clarification

We're having a bit of a problem here in the interpretation of the fair use for images. Currently, over at the article lolicon there are two images which shows the example of lolicon manga. User Brennan removed BOTH images on the grounds only one example can be posted on the article, due to his interpretation of the fair use policy. I've placed back the first picture that was in the article before the the second picture violated the fair use policy, and now this is being contested as well since, as he claimed, they both are in violation now, therefore, both must go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lolicon#Fair_use Arguments are stated above. Clarification would be most appreciated --Jqiz 19:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Ook? Putting aside the fact that I've actually only removed one of the two images ([6][7][8]) it's pretty straightforward: the fair use claim here is that this images are required to illustrate the genre. Unless we demonstrate in the text by citing third parties that there are sub-genres and that these are typical members, we can only use one image to "illustrate". There are several other hurdles to fair use here such as size and fact that it's cover art, but having a single image is the start. - brenneman^{L} 23:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

We're now arguing if lolicon manga is an example of a subgenre in lolicon, and you want a 'source' to confirm that the picture is a 'lolicon' manga? --Jqiz 02:16, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Style: MHz vs. MT/s

I'm a computer guy. I know the difference between actual measured Hertz, and effecitve data rate. Yet even in computer circles, I never see anyone outside Wikipedia (and a few other 'high minded' websites,) use the term 'Megatransfers'. I can't find in the policy documents anywhere that specifies when one is preferred over the other. Obviously, when referring to actual clock frequency, MHz/GHz would make sense. But in some articles, I see MHz used when they really mean 'effective data rate', and in other I see MT/s. While MT/s may be more technically accurate, MHz is the more commonly accepted term. Does anyone know if there is an official policy? (Yes, to me, this is a related question to the Mebibyte/Megabyte controversy, which does have a policy decision, even if it's goofy.) Ehurtley 20:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I always use Hertz trucks for my megatransfers. David91 05:44, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Biographies of Living Persons

This question has cropped up in a particular context, but I don't want to cloud the issue by putting it into context. If you want to see the context, check out the mediation subpage of the John Brignell article.

The question is about what information can be put into an article about a living person? The guideline on Verifiability, section on Opinions of critics, opponents, and detractors [9] states Many persons that are notable enough to have an article in Wikipedia about them are likely to have detractors, opponents and/or critics. Their views can be presented in a biography providing that these are relevant to their notability, based on reputable sources and in a manner that does not overwhelm the article. I take this to mean that the view cannot be put into the article if it fails to meet any of these three conditions, specifically a comment from a disreputeable source cannot be put into an article about a living person.

The guideline on Reliable Sources, section on Beware false authority [10] states Would you trust a plumber to fill your cavities? Likewise, you should probably not trust someone who has a Ph.D. in plant biology to tell you about quantum mechanics. Just as actors in TV commercials don white lab coats to make viewers think they are serious scientists, people with degrees in one field are not necessarily experts in any other. Watch out for false claims of authority. Try to use sources who have degrees in the field they are discussing. The more reputable ones are affiliated with academic institutions. The most reputable have written textbooks in their field for the undergraduate level or higher: these authors can be expected to have a broad, authoritative grasp of their subject. I take this to mean that the opinion of an academic talking outside his field is a disreputable source within the meaning of the former section and thus cannot be put into an article about a living person. This is not to say that the academic is disreputable, only that his stated opinion counts as a disreputable source.

Am I full of it? Or is this what the BLP guidelines intend?

If this is what is intended, is the onus on the person making the claim to demonstrate that the his source is reputable, or on me to demonstrate it is disreputable?

Thanks for your comments. Engjs 22:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the onus is on you. Assume good faith. Wikipedia is a great way of breaking out of the narrow specialisms of academia, which impose a dead weight of convention. Hawkestone 23:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not so worried about where the onus lies, but as to whether I am interpreting the guidelines properly. Engjs 23:32, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that the word "disreputable source" is the best way to phrase it. Their opinion may not be a "reliable and reputable source" but disreputable carries negative connotations which "not a reputable/credible source" does not. --Philip Baird Shearer 23:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Agree totally, and tried to make that point above. The source is very reputable in other areas, but I can show his opinion is worthless in the case in question. But this is not the issue, which is whether I am interpreting the guidelines correctly. Engjs 01:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Yoga

User:Dandelion1 added a section to the article on Naked Yoga, a variant of Yoga. Yoga has several variants and following Wikipedia:Manual of Style, not all variants are described in the main Yoga page otherwise the page would exceed the size limit. I removed the section and added the conerned material to Naked Yoga and the moved the material which it previously contianed to Naked Yoga (film). User:Dandelion1 reverted my edits on both Yoga and Naked Yoga page giving the following reasons:

• rv last edit, unjustified, as separate article made by me was on film Naked Yoga, not variant Naked yoga and
• rv edits of User:Deepak gupta reason: this page is on a specific film not a variant of yoga.

I need some help! --Deepak gupta|सदस्य वार्ता 00:57, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

WP:EARLY

• I have proposed a policy which would allow for the early closure of AfD debates which have become nasty / personal / otherwise undesirable, and where there is already a very clear final outcome. This is in response to many AfDs where the following often apply:
  • New users unfamiliar with AfD / WP-space (see also the "Meatpuppet" section above) try to save a page that is clearly heading for deletion, and resort to taunting, insulting or abusing others
  • Arguments between editors with existing bad relationships (possibly compounded by a (suspected) bad faith nomination) spill onto the AfD board

The policy (full title:Wikipedia:Early closure to avoid unecessary confrontation) is intended to stop the hurt in such AfD's. The full draft of the policy is open for your perusal and comment. Deizio 03:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Nobel and Other Secret Prize Nominations

This started out as an edit dispute in a particular article (R.J. Rummel), but has wider implications, so I am seeking wider comment. Periodically, a bio or other article claims that a person has been nominated for a Nobel prize or (less often) another prize with similar secrecy rules. This strikes me as violating at least three policies, depending on facts and circumstances:

• WP:Verifiability. Since the nomination is supposed to be secret, any claim to have nominated is inherently unverifiable as to the fact claimed.
• Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms. Since such prizes typically receive a lot of nominations, and since the lists of semi-finalists and finalists are closely guarded, such a claim has little meaning.
• NPOV#Undue weight. Many readers are accustomed to the Academy awards and other such prizes where the term "nominee" actually means "finalist". Accordingly, any claim of being nominated for one of these prizes, even if listed, will tend to be misunderstood and should be qualified to avoid misleading readers.

I would add to this the obvious question about whether a nomination made in flagrant violation of the rules is even considered a nomination by the relevant committee. I would therefore recommend that stories about such nominations not be included in Wikipedia articles unless the claim is widely publicized and somehow relevant, in which case we have a duty to readers to clarify the doubtful nature of any such claim. Am I wrong? What does the community think? Robert A.West (Talk) 06:04, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• I should add that in the specific case, the claim is a publicized promise to nominate. This may violate WP:Not#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Robert A.West (Talk) 06:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I think that anyone can nominate anyone for the Nobel prize, therefore, any such claim is very non notable and almost certainly vanity since the info would have to come from the involved parties themselves. In my opinion it should not be included in wikipedia. David D. (Talk) 06:14, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

From Hugo Claus:

Hugo Claus has been connected with the Nobel Prize for Literature for several years now, but he himself claims to have given up hope of ever receiving it.

For me this is OK. Improvements I'd suggest concern:

• "has been connected with", find an alternate formulation applying Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words;
• Find a reference where & when Claus would have said this.

--Francis Schonken 16:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Or else the whole sentence should be deleted as non-verifiable and peacockery. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

See also Talk:Jorge_Luis_Borges#Borges_and_Nobel_Prize, which cites several sources; note that this has not yet made it into the article. Septentrionalis 22:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Nobel Peace Prize nominations are my bete-noir. I've deleted dozens of assertions of nominations from articles (including a car dealer from Ohio and a diet guru from Brazil). There are a few cases where the nominations themselves were announced by the nominators, and so are verifiable, for example Stanley Williams. However even when verifiable they are not necessarily notable, since over a hundred people are nominated annually and there is a very low threshold (any college social studies professor or any national legislator may make a nomination of any living person). In general there has been little opposition to my removal of these nominations, but I haven't been too dogmatic about it. A guideline or policy may help, but it should take into account these famous nominations. -Will Beback 22:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

For the Nobel Peace Price the only information given by the comitee is who the winner is. They do not give any information about the rest of the nominees, and they advise the nominators to not publish their proposals. Almost all information about people who's been nominated and hasn't won is speculation and can't be properly verified. It is true that there is quite many nominators for the price, but it is still not quite everybody. http://www.nobel.no/eng_com_nom.html --85.165.20.90 23:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Glad someone else has the same bete-noir as I do. I take a harder line, however. A claim of nomination for a scientific prize is non-verifiable even if announced by the alleged nominator, because the list of nominators (a few hundred) is secret. The peace prize is a different matter, since any lawyer, jurist or college professor of history can nominate; however, even in this case, there is no way to cross-check the claim. If a person bioed claims to have climbed Everest, but provides no evidence outside of his claim, I would not include it, except with strong qualification, and then possibly to document the counterclaim that his inflates his resume. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree that a mere claim of nomination is non-noteworthy by itself. If the claim, however, is a subject of public debate, or a point of public notoriety (other than between wikipedia editors,) then the controversy over the claim belongs in the article. As it is impossible to verify a claim of nomination, that cements that mere nomination doesn't mean squat. (How do you verify that someone was nominated? How do you provide proof that you have nominated someone? You can't, only (in this case) the Nobel committee can "prove" it, and they don't ever reveal.) If the claim of nomination is supposedly the tipping point between the person being notable and being non-notable, then I would land on the side of declaring the person non-notable. I could have a friend of mine (a history professor,) nominate me for the Nobel Peace Prize, publicly acknowledging the claim. That doesn't mean I've just become notable. (Even if I do have a few published works, which I don't.) Any secret prize, which doesn't make its 'short list' public, mere nomination isn't worth mentioning. I haven't even read the article at the center of this debate, just the talk pages, so I have no bias toward or against the person that is being debated. Ehurtley 00:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this. If a person claims to have been nominated that is meaningless. If a qualified person makes a public claim to have nominated someone, and if there is some controversy or notoriety connected to that nomination, then it may well be notable in the context of the nominee's bio. However no one is notable simply for having been nominated. Claims that someone is a "finalist" are totally unverifiable and should not be included. -Will Beback 01:12, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

How to get permission for use of image

Hi, for an article regarding a local brewery I e-mailed them asking permission to use images from their website for wikipedia, and they agreed. What steps are necessary for me so I can include those images in wikipedia? (copyright and -tagging wise, the uploading procedure itself is clear to me.

I hope I got the right section for my question, thanks Snakemike 11:05, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Talk pages being used to draft alternate version of an article

I was doing a search on google and (for the first time) got a talk page (Talk:Scappoose, Oregon) as a content-relevant result. Going there, I discover what looks like an alternate version of Scappoose, Oregon instead of a discussion about the article. After a brief look at edit histories, I saw that 70.58.119.11 (talk · contribs) deliberately treated the talk page like an article, with a couple of dozen edits. A single change to Talk:Scappoose, Oregon by Trtracing (talk · contribs) helps discover that Talk:St. Helens, Oregon has gotten the same treatment, perhaps by the same editor (given the geographic proximity of the two towns).

As a exopedianist who has contributed without logging in since 2003, I wonder if I and other Wikipedians should care about this use of talk pages. Is this early evidence of abuse that could lead Wikipedians against anonymous editing to fight for further restrictions on those of us contributing without logging in? Priot to the Seigenthaler controversy I wouldn't have given this much thought, but it's got me thinking enough about it that I'm posting this comment.

If there's a policy or guideline about this kind of misuse of talk pages, please direct me there. Thanks. 66.167.136.185 11:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC).

I don't see (a) why it's a "misuse" of talk pages; (b) what this has to do with anonymous editing. It looks like a text dump someone put there while working on an article. Regarding (a): agreed, it might better be done on a user page or a /temp page, but it doesn't look like that user has displaced any other edits. Text is often moved to talk pages to be worked on or to hold on to while sourcing issues are resolved; what's different about this? Why not leave a note on that user's talk page or the Scappoose talk page asking that user what s/he intends? Regarding (b): what would be different if a logged-in user had done this? · rodii ·

Talk pages are not the place to put text of an article. They are there to discuss how to edit the article and what changes/improvements to make. The text should be userfied and removed from the Talk pages. User:Zoe|^(talk) 22:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this should be at best a temporary expedient, and a user page would be better. But talk pages are often used for (shorter) pieces of article text while they're in process. Accusations of "abuse" and paranoia about this leading to restrictions on anonymous editing just seem a little extreme to me, that's all. · rodii · 23:31, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

In this vein, I've seen anonymous IPs create new articles in stub templates due to a lack of other options. I find it a little sad that some people are reduced to "guerilla editing" just to add new articles to Wikipedia. Sarge Baldy 01:38, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Aha, now I begin to see a connection! Thanks, Sarge. (But why not register an account?) · rodii · 02:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone — Rodii (talk · contribs), Zoe (talk · contribs), and Sarge Baldy (talk · contribs) — for their replies. Zoe replied most directly with advice I will follow: The text should be userfied and removed from the Talk pages. I'll move Talk:Scappoose, Oregon to User talk:70.58.119.11 and Talk:St. Helens, Oregon to User talk:Trtracing, which are the users which created the bulk of the text.

As to User:Rodii's concerns that I am being "a little extreme" about the potential for further restrictions on IP-based editing, I would counter that I have created hundreds of articles without logging in and yet in the span of only a few months saw how quickly the community rallied around new restrictions since the Seigenthaler controversy. We've now got the WP:AFC process, and the WP:SEMI process, just to name a couple. Here's a plausible scenario:

• Someone creates Talk:Lee Hoffman or Talk:Jarl André Storbæk or Talk:Dani Rodrik or Talk:Kanako Otsuji, and over the course of a couple of weeks builds it up into alternate biography, with scandalous phrases tossed in here and there. Two months pass, and Mr. Hoffman or Storbæk or Rodrik or Otsuji (all of whom are Living people) googles himself, and gets back what looks superficially like a wikpedia article. How long before that turns into another Seigenthaler controversy, with follow-on Office Actions? 69.3.70.217 (f.k.a. 66.167.136.185) 06:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

New policy

I know this may seem a bit harsh, but here goes: what would you all say to a policy that makes it that people shouldn't add images to their signature. I know it may be a bit mean and it is seen only as a cosideration on Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages but mainly becuase it:

• Causes slowdown of the servers;
• If lots of people have them, then your browser has to download each indevidual and different image(s);
• It can be an ablosoulte pest when it comes to loading long pages.

What would you say? Kilo-Lima|^(talk) 16:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Disagree. To respond to your points in order:

• It doesn't necessarily affect the servers--it depends on whether the images are actusally stored on the servers. If the image is hosted somewhere else it adds no load to the Wikipedia servers at all.
• But, assuming you have reasonable caching settings on your browser, the image loads just once, or just once in a while.
• That depends on the size of the images. Page size is pretty variable. A 300-byte image on a small page might not be a problem. An SVG image--which isn't an "image" at all, but text, might even be bigger than a small gif.

So I think this policy is misguided--there is an issue here, but an image ban isn't the solution. Guidelines about how many bytes a signature should add to a page might be good, but the caching issue makes even that less serious than it might seem. · rodii · 17:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean, If the image is hosted somewhere else? Wikipedia only uses images hosted locally. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 23:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

A fourth problem: images do not resize when browsers change their font size, mucking the screen up for people with very small font sizes. I think this is something that should politely be enforced. Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 23:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC) Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 23:53, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Question regarding extreme bias

First forgive my poor English. I am relative new on wikipedia and perhaps this has perhaps already been addressed. Is there a policy regarding this and that case what policy? I will give a principal example of it:

If an editor enters the Holocaust page and it will become apparent for other editors that this person is a revisionist but pretending not to be. Further they can track this user and see that he in other places on the internet inside or outside of wikipedia promotes revisionism, uses a revisionist homepage as he’s own and so on. That he obviously is deep into this belief. And that he at the same time clams to not have this extreme view, but as a Wikipedia’n just want things NPOV. What is then the way to handle this situation? Would it be improper to raise the question of bias, even with good evidence – or would that be judged as a personal attack, and should not be done? Shall a hiding of the true agenda makes it easier for him to work this way then if he had bluntly told he’s stand in this issue?SweHomer 20:54, 24 March 2006 (UTC)