Talk:Visual novel

Redirect

Shibboleth, why did you redirect the page, despite the passionate comments by the previous anonymous contributor? Paranoid 10:41, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Changes

Nice to see an "anime game" section article that was actually balanced, mostly accurate, and well written. I've made several changes to correct a few misconceptions that had crept in, particularly:

• "Kinetic Novel" is a proprietary term that refers only to the VisualArt's titles "Planetarian", "Maiden Halo", "カレと彼の間で", "TRANCEキッス", and "神曲奏界ポリフォニカ".
• Visual novels were never always ren'ai games - there are horror examples from the mid-1990s on the Super Famicom ("Otogirisou", "Kamaitachi no yoru", "Gakkou de atta kowai hanashi" and so on).

Haeleth 22:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Why thank you. --Shii/Ashibaka (tock) 22:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

VN. vs AVG

An acquaintance of mine who is knowledgable about the genre (Olf le Fol; you may know him) complained that this article is backwards; visual novels are a subset of adventure games, not the other way around. He also said that some game articles are tagged as VNs when the Japanese consider them AVGs (Atlach=Nacha was implied, though I haven't played it, and Yami to Bōshi to Hon no Tabibito is probably one from my own observations.) If this is the case, can we remedy this without making the article terminally confusing for the English-speaking gamer? -Seventh Holy Scripture 17:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I read it as giving NVL and AVG as roughly synonymous, which in practice I think they are, in English usage. (I know Olf's a stickler for Japanese usage, but this is the English wikipedia... ;))

I suspect this whole area of terminology is already terminally confused, though, so if you can think of a way of rephrasing that more accurately describes the Japanese usage, go right ahead. — Haeleth Talk 19:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Blade

Blade is a commercial product with no English games produced with it. Ren'py has had several games produced with it. Please stop spamming this page. Ashibaka tock 22:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it's commercial. Isn't it free? And is the basis for banning Blade the fact that Ren'py is already cited?--SidiLemine 14:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The "free" version is crippled nagware, designed to sell a forthcoming commercial version. It is also currently an insignificant product, with very few users and no particular notability within the English-language visual novel community.

The purpose of mentioning any visual-novel engines in the article is to give people representative examples, not to produce an exhaustive list of all available tools. We therefore cite NScripter, because it is a major product that has been used to power multiple A-list commercial visual novel games, and we cite Ren'Py, because it is a free-as-in-freedom product that is the most popular engine among English-language amateur visual novel authors. Those two are adequately representative of the range of engines available.

An additional reason to object to the Blade links is that the Blade engine is being promoted in the USA by a company called CuriousFactory Inc. The Blade links are being added to this article by a user called Curiousfactory. It doesn't take much of a leap to deduce that there's a connection, and we simply cannot condone companies adding links to their own products. — Haeleth Talk 16:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Very fine with me. I was just surprised to see a revert conflict without any discussion on it on the talk page. The reasons looked quite obvious, but there are surptises in those disputes. Did anyone asked for him to be blocked already?--SidiLemine 10:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I blocked him after I noticed Hareth gave him a "final warning" two days prior. Ashibaka tock 22:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I readded improper link w/o checking the chat area first. I'm a wikipedia newbie.. Whisperstorm 09:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources

This is a great article, well written and all. However it could probably benefit from a few good references at the bottom of the page.--SidiLemine 11:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Images

While I recognise that free images are vastly preferable to copyrighted images, I don't think it's really reasonable to illustrate an article about a game genre with a fake "screenshot". Particularly not if the caption claims it's a real screenshot of a "typical" game, which the Wikipe-tan image definitely would not be. (For one thing, typical visual novels are not written in Romance languages... appropriate though it would be if they were!)

A better solution, if the Kanon image is felt to be undesirable, would be to use a screenshot of a free game, or otherwise to acquire permission to release a screenshot under a free license. There are plenty of authors, certainly of free games, who would probably be very happy to give permission to place a single screenshot in the public domain or under the GFDL. If time permits, I'll put some feelers out. — Haeleth Talk 17:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's completely reasonable because we're not talking about a specific game, but how visual novels typically look (some type of cute-ish young girl in front of a backdrop image with a dialog box). If someone can get a screenshot of a "real" game released under GFDL then that would be great, and I would indeed encourage that.

WP:FUC has a "quick test" at the bottom of the page, it says "As a quick test, ask yourself: "Can this image be replaced by a different one, while still having the same effect?" If the answer is yes, then the image probably doesn't meet the criteria above." Thus, the Kanon image doesn't meet the fair use criteria, even if it is far more desirable to use real screenshots. -- Ned Scott 05:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, "probably" does not mean "definitely"; secondly, that "quick test" would rule out pretty much any use of screenshots at all, since any screenshot of a game could be replaced with pretty much any other screenshot of that game. (Even a screenshot of a one-time revolutionary innovation, used to illustrate a description of that innovation, could almost certainly be replaced with a screenshot taken half a second sooner or later.) Therefore, it cannot be intended to be a universal rule.

As for the use of non-free game screenshots to illustrate genre articles, I would point out that it is completely standard practice across the whole of Wikipedia, and if you wish to change it here, I suggest you also look at the following articles:

• Bishojo game (a featured article!): 3 screenshots of copyrighted games, 2 scans of copyrighted game covers.
• First person shooter: 10 screenshots of copyrighted games
• Real-time strategy: 10 screenshots of copyrighted games
• Shooter game: 6 screenshots of copyrighted games
• Computer role-playing game: 3 screenshots of copyrighted games
• Console role-playing game: 3 screenshots of copyrighted games
• City-building game: 3 screenshots of copyrighted games
• Flight simulator: 2 screenshots of copyrighted games
• God game: 2 screenshots of copyrighted games

...and I stopped looking after that. I submit that there is ample precedent for treating illustration of a genre as a fair use for a non-free screenshot, and any move to change that status should be discussed centrally and then implemented consistently. — Haeleth Talk 08:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

You can still use a fair use image if that image adds something to the article that the first does not. The Kanon image adds nothing more than the Wikipe image. The Quick test isn't about any other image, but rather, a fair use image vs a free image (can a fair use image be replaced by a free image). It obviously is not talking about two images from the same source.

I'm not opposed to the use of fair use images, and I think they usually add great value to our articles. I'm usually on the side defending the use of a fair use image. However, in this article, this specific article, that kanon image does nothing more than the Wikipe image. If fails policy. This is not optional. Had that image actually added some value to this article that Wikipe-tan's could not (an image of a girl in front of a backdrop with a dialog box) then you might have a point, but that's all the image is. This is not the same as those other articles you listed.

It fails the following requirements to be included in this article: WP:FUC #1, #8, and #10 (no fair use rational written on the description page of the image). -- Ned Scott 09:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I am still waiting for you to explain how this is different from all the other examples I gave. How is using a picture of Pia Carrot 3 to illustrate the concept of a bishoujo game any different from using a picture of Kanon to illustrate the concept of a visual novel? Please clarify. — Haeleth Talk 14:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

We could use Kanon before because we didn't have a free example for visual novel, but now we do. When we get a free image for bishoujo then the fair use images on that article should also be removed (unless the additional images provide some additional insight, significantly different example, or relates to a section written directly about that game and the image aids in the reader's understanding of that section, etc etc). In other words, we can still use fair use images on this article even with a free image, but they must provide something significant to the article that the Wikipe-tan image does not. In most cases using a fair use image should only be seen as a temporary measure until a free image can be obtained. That is what's different. -- Ned Scott 20:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of taking the Wikipe-tan image and an image of a classroom I found in the Wikimedia commons, plugging them into Ren'Py, and producing the image you see to the right. While it is in English, it does have the advantage that the drop-shadowing is similar to what you see in real games, rather then the odd blurring used in the current shot.

I think a screenshot from a real game would probably be the best thing, but hopefully this screenshot is better than an image made in photoshop. I can fairly easily change the text to whatever is wanted.

I'm not going to add this to the page without someone more wiki-competent approving. PyTom 21:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer her saying something less self-promotional. And "tan" isn't capitalized. _dk 22:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

It's easy to make those changes, but I don't know what she should say. Any suggestions? PyTom 00:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

"I heard Watanabe-san was going to make his own visual novel so that we would have some free images to use on Wikipedia! That's the kind of guy who keeps the Internet alive, don't you think?" Ashibaka tock 15:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Is that a suggestion for what she should be saying? If so, I can implement it. Or is it that someone else will make a VN. PyTom 17:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC) (A little out of it.)

It's a suggestion :) Ashibaka tock 20:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I took a screenshot with your suggested text. (I still don't get who Wantanabe-san is.) PyTom 21:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It means "Mr. Smith". Ashibaka tock 15:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a pretty blatant self-reference. Surely someone can make one that at least doesn't explicitly reference Wikipedia, and preferably doesn't use Wikipe-tan (do we have any other freely licensed anime-style drawings?). --SPUI (T - C) 22:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

While it's true that free images are better than copyrighted ones on which we assert fair use, this image doesn't seem to fit very well. While all we're trying to get is the general idea of visual novels, this is just self-promotion (see WP:ASR). I think it would be best to at least simulate what a visual novel might say instead of the current caption, and we should still try to get a producer to release a screenshot under a free license, as that would be the best thing for sure. --Rory096 03:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The text used is a bit silly, and the image doesn't have to actually say "Wikipe-tan". Even with that, this isn't a self-promotion, it's just an example that uses Wikipedia. See the image on Datamatrix, or on Mozilla Firefox (a featured article), they both use images that specifically mention Wikipedia.

Being a self-reference isn't always an issue. Note that WP:SELF says "To ease reusability, never allow the text of an article to assume that the reader is viewing it at Wikipedia, and try to avoid even assuming that the reader is viewing the article at a website." One of the reasons we avoid self-references is because things wouldn't make sense if you were reading it on paper, possibly under a different "brand" than Wikipedia. Using "Wikipedia" as an example in an image doesn't make the content or information dependent on being on Wikipedia. Such examples still hold the same value even when used off-site. -- Ned Scott 04:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, Wikipe-tan has been used in a bunch of other articles as well, and one of her pictures is a featured picture. She's even been seen on the Main Page twice, once for a "did you know" and once for her featured picture showing. This has come up in discussion many times, and we've basically concluded that this use is not the same kind of issue that WP:SELF tries to avoid. -- Ned Scott 04:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

My objection is not mainly to the use of Wikipe-tan (though I would prefer another character, at least if we had one) but to the text. --SPUI (T - C) 06:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I was asked on my talk page if I could change the text of the image. I don't mind doing that, but I would prefer not to be the one to decide. -- PyTom 04:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It should actually be possible to find a decent freely-licensed screenshot; there are freely-licensed visual novels, though there quality is presumably usually low. I tried going with a comedy option (MIT license) but couldn't find a good place to screencap; we should be able to find a somewhat better-quality free game. I'd assume that [1] (Narcissu) does not allow for screenshots under a free license. --SPUI (T - C) 06:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If we do use a modified version of the current image, I suggest the following:

1. Rename the character - she looks more like a student than a teacher, so Teacher wouldn't work. Maybe Wik as her nickname? Or a completely different name?
2. For the text, something generic like "By applying these calculations to our example, we can determine that the buoyancy of the submarine is not enough to allow it to reach the surface."

By the way, the specific images used in the collage should be cited so as to satisfy the attribution requirement of the GFDL. --SPUI (T - C) 07:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

What about using Image:Wikipe-tan_visual_novel.png? --humblefool® 07:29, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That has similar self-reference issues and isn't in English. I believe the current image was made to replace that, which is apparently also made in a graphics editor rather than a real visual novel engine. --SPUI (T - C) 07:53, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

SPUI, the text doesn't have to be anything in particular. Just suggest some lorem ipsum stuff yourself if you don't like it. Ashibaka tock 05:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

He did. -Seventh Holy Scripture 05:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Time to go back to reading comprehension class. Ashibaka tock 06:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to figure out if there's consensus here as to what the image should be changed to. I can make just about anything using Ren'Py, but I need to know what I should do. Is an image of Wikipe-tan okay, as it is on Moe anthropomorphism... or should I looks for a screenshot of an actual game? Or should I just be leaving well enough alone? PyTom 07:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think just the text needs to be changed. Like I've said before, we don't even have to name Wikipe-tan in the image, if we want to take it that far. -- Ned Scott 09:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of updating the text under Wikipe-tan's pic to, "An image of a visual novel: Visual novels (this example featuring Wikipe-tan) are commonly characterized with dialog boxes and sprites determining the speaker..." Hope it's ok... Anon. 63.97.219.197 05:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Fan Translation Section

I've reverted User:SeizureDog's removal of the fan translation section, as I disagree with the reasoning that "Fan translations are technically copy-vios and Wikipedia cannot support them.". Some (most?) fan-translations of doujinshi are done with the consent of the copyright holder, so I don't think that's a problem. Even if it was, I don't think that a mention counts as support... Wikipedia has plenty of articles that mention things that are illegal (For example, Bong describes how to use the device in question), and I don't think that counts as support.

That being said, I think that this section could probably use some work. It might make sense to cover commercial translations as well as fan-translations, and maybe find some sources for it. Or something like that. PyTom 23:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it shouldn't matter if they're a copyvio or not. We have articles about people who have killed other people, but that doesn't mean we're "supporting" them. (That being just an example, I would not call fan-translations similar to murder :) ) What we should avoid is linking to places where someone can find copyvios, etc, but we can still cover the topic. -- Ned Scott 00:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Translation patches aren't really copyright violations anyway... they simply contain data to be altered. Doujin games that are distributed as the actual English versions are free to begin with. Every translation group that's done a commercial (or just for-pay) game has gone out of their way to make sure that their patch isn't distributed with the game, anyway. I don't think there's a problem with a fan translation section at all, especially since it forms an important part of the western VN community. Moogy ^(talk) 01:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

No, translation patches are actually copyright violations. The right to create derivative works (including translations) is covered in copyright. Translation patches are only legal if you don't share them, or if you create an entirely different story to fit in (and thus is not a derivative work of the original). It doesn't matter if the original version is free (unless you mean free use use), it still is covered by copyright. Now, companies may not mind that patches are being made, but like fan fiction, it's still technically copyright infringement. Legality aside, it's really not encyclopedic to talk about unofficial stuff like this. And I hardly see how "international visual novel fans rely mainly on fan translations" when only 2 games have been fully fan-patched when at least 50 have been officially brought over. Basically what this says to me is that 'international' fans are too cheap to buy official visual novels and mostly just pirate them. Which you have to admit, is mostly true anyways; I myself have done so a couple of times, but at least I plan to buy some of them eventually (right now I've got my eye on Kanon for Dreamcast). Of course, we don't get any of the actual popular series, but that still doesn't justify it. I'm not saying we really need to avoid mentioning that visual novels are sometimes fansubbed, but we do need to avoid giving details such as which have been; because then it starts reading like promotion for the translation groups.

Observe this potential slippery slope:
"Some games have unofficial translation patches made for them." (Informs the reader of the practice, but gives no help for obtaining them. This is what I'd be ok with.)
"Planetarian and Tsukihime have had unofficial translation patches made for them." (Implies "this is what you can steal, now go search for it". To me at least.)
"The group Anime Fanboys has created unofficial translation patches for Planetarian and Tsukihime. Download them here." (Full blown promotion.)

On another point, there's really no need to mention dojinshi being translated; with the author's permission or otherwise. Dojinshi are almost by defination non-notable (unless, like Type-Moon, you just happen to get famous later). Anyways, I'm talking too much.--SeizureDog 11:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"No, translation patches are actually copyright violations." You are wrong. Narcissu and the al|together translations are 100% legal. Ashibaka (tock) 00:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not wrong. You just provided an exception. It's legal if permission is granted to do so of course. The copyright owner has waived his rights. Read Fan translation, "fan translations are indisputably illegal".--SeizureDog 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This isn't different from some of the other articles, however. For example, Final Fantasy V has: "That same year, an unofficial English fan translation patch for the Final Fantasy V ROM image was released on the internet by translation group RPGe.[29][30] It is often cited as the first RPG to be completely translated.[31]" In fact, that gives one a much more direct link to the translation. Heck, there's List of fan translated games.

That list is something that really needs to go. I AFDed it. I don't support FFV's section on the fan translation either, especially since it's impossible to use the patch without stealing the game (ROMs are illegal, at least you can buy the Japanese visual novels and then patch them). --SeizureDog 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you could easily buy a copy of FFV for the Super Famicom, dump it yourself with an SFC dumper and have a (debatably) legal ROM to use with the patch. Moogy ^(talk) 04:53, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

"Easily" is a bit of a understatement. But yeah, I know you could do that as well. But who does? And as far as I can tell, usually it's the ROMs themselves that are being distributed, not patches for ROMs you dump yourself. But even in that case, Nintendo specifically states that "copying of any video game for any Nintendo system is illegal" so it still doesn't matter.--SeizureDog 08:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen a fan translation distributed by the producers of a translation as a pre-patched ROM (unaffiliated warez sites will quite often do so, though.) And in this case, I believe Nintendo is in the legal wrong. See 17 USC 117 a1. -Seventh Holy Scripture 11:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Directly following what I quoted is: "'Back-up' or 'archival' copies are not authorized and not necessary to protect your software. Violators will be prosecuted."--SeizureDog 12:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect some of the translated doujin games (especially Narcissu) may rise to the point of notability, at least in Japan. I think this merits at least discussion of how some games have been fan-translated. I don't think mentioning some of the notable translations is out of the question here. (I do think we should improve the coverage of commercial translations... I might try to do that it my Copious Free Time.) PyTom 16:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

For the time being I've replaced the example fan translation provided with the free game (and officially approved fan translation) of Narcissu. I also generalized the section to 'Translations' and added a mention of AnimePlay. -Seventh Holy Scripture 19:05, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I added a mention of Ever17, by far the most notable commercially localized visual novel, to the section. Moogy ^(talk) 19:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that SeizureDog was requesting a citation for the Ever17 info. Well, it's pretty obvious - Hirameki is the only company that publishes non-eroge VNs in the United States, and Ever17 is their top seller, as seen here. Moogy ^(talk) 16:58, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like the solution to this problem is that we can talk about fan translations, but to do so we should cite reliable external sources. This will take care of a lot of SeizureDog's concerns, but won't ban talking about fan translations. It might be wise to place one of those edit only messages in the section as an extra reminder for WP:SPAM, WP:V, etc. It is a magnet for crap, but fan translations are pretty significant to the topic. We just gotta get sources for that info. -- Ned Scott 21:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm much more comfortable with how the section is written now. Mentions that the scene exists and gives an example of a fan-translated patch that was allowed. It's good.--SeizureDog 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

A couple of issues remain. I'm not all that comfortable with the Ever17 citation. Moogy's link is to Hirameki's direct sales division, while some of their other titles were distributed via other channels. (I once saw Hourglass of Summer in a bookstore.) So I don't think this is properly cited. I'm also not sure if it makes sense to cite the best selling non-eroge, when eroge seem to sell more. Finally, I'm not sure if it's true that "all major visual novels are produced in Japan"... are there any major VNs that are produced in China or Korea? PyTom 20:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm Chinese, and I think I can answer the last question: No. (I know some are produced in Taiwan, but they're hardly major.) _dk 21:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Would it be acceptable for me to e-mail Hirameki and inquire if they have total sales figures available for their games? I'm interested in preserving that statement, and believe it's true, but don't think there's any way to provide the necessary citation otherwise. -Seventh Holy Scripture 07:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, we couldn't use your e-mail as evidence because it's not published. We would have to cite a source anyone could look at, for example a page on Hirameki's website. Ashibaka (tock) 20:53, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

We could easily host the e-mail here or on WikiBooks. As long as it's official, e-mails can be used as references. The C Sharp article had to e-mail Microsoft Customer Support to get an answer for their "Language name" debate.--SeizureDog 22:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source." Ashibaka (tock) 23:35, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"pub·lish verb 1 a : to make generally known b : to make public announcement of
2 a : to disseminate to the public b : to produce or release for distribution
An e-mail qualifies as being a work "published work". We, the public, ask an official company, thus reliable, a question concerning their products. Really, what better source could you want for sales figures than the company itself? --SeizureDog 23:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Re: VN. vs AVG

The previous discussion was about 1 year old, so I figure I'd start a brand new section.

In Japan, Visual Novels (or just "Novels") is a distinct genre from the "Adventure Game" (abbreviated as either "ADV" or "AVG") genre. Their main difference is essentially the difference between a paper back novel and a "Choose Your Own Adventure" game book. For Visual Novels, there is no branch in the storyline, no real decisions to make, no multiple endings. For ADV, the story is actually interactive.

When do we follow what is common, and when do we accuse something of being a common misnomer?

To me, calling ADV games "Dating Sims" is as much a misnomer as calling them "Visual Novels". However, this article had a distinct treatment between their relationship. Where is the line? -Afker 10:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

ja:ビジュアルノベル has this to say about visual novels: "In a broad sense, they may be regarded as a kind of adventure game. Although the above-mentioned names are distinguished by the producers, a clear distinction is not carried out in the world in many cases." Moreover, the page reiterates the primary distinction I raised above- VNs scroll text down the screen like a novel, while ADVs present it in a textbox usually formatted as dialogue- and links to both of TYPE-MOON's games as examples, which would not be visual novels by your criteria.

"Dating sim" is a double misnomer, as not all visual novels are about dating, nor are they simulators. Our disuse of "adventure game" as a primary term is rationalized by that genre being specific to puzzle-solving, free exploration games in English (in Japanese it appears the genre encompasses both.) -Seventh Holy Scripture 12:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If visual novel is considered, in a broad sense, a subset of ADV games, wouldn't that further make it inappropriate to generalize ADV games as visual novels? Like the species spiders is considered, in a broad sense, a kind of bugs, but you wouldn't generalize bugs as spiders. You would fold spider under the bug article, not the other way around. -Afker 13:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

BTW, I apologize for mixing up the genre "novel" games from "visual novel" games. I mistakenly assumed "visual novels" are a subset of "novels", but turns out that is not the case. After carefully reading both the English and the Japanese articles' characterizations, I have arrived at the conclusion that "novel" games and "visual novel" games are two different genres of computer games in Japan, though they have overlaps. -Afker 13:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's more appropriate to consider the situation of "adventure game" similar to football, as a case where the term has taken on slightly different meanings in different nationalities. However, that analogy is complicated by at least two nationalities with different meanings for "football" (America and Britain) sharing the same language and thus the same Wikipedia. In this case, since this is the English Wikipedia, I believe these games should be referred to by the most common term among English speakers- which is "visual novel."

(Or arguably "dating sim", but that is a blatant misrepresentation, whereas calling Japanese-style adventure games "visual novels" probably won't give any readers false impressions. In fact, there might be more false impressions were the term "adventure games" used, and Western gamers dived into Tsukihime expecting something akin to Myst or a Sierra game...) -Seventh Holy Scripture 14:05, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The flaw in the Football analogy is that in that case America and England each uses it as a "native" word, whereas "visual novel" is being treated as a "Japanese" term, yet we are not using the Japanese definition of it. 70% (number exaggerated for dramatic effect) of this article doesn't even characterize the actual Visual Novel genre, but rather characterizes how ADV games differ from visual novels. With the exception of a few games where the line is blurry, the two genres (visual novels vs ADV games) are fairly distinct, and this wikipedia article is propagating a prevalent misconception. I'm very tempted to try and clean it up, but I lack the initiative and boldness to completely nuke the article and start from scratch, nor can I find an easy means to salvage the current article so I don't have to start from scratch. -Afker 07:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Consider another analogy then: Hentai, a blatant English misappropriation of a Japanese term. Rather then restricting itself to the Japanese meaning, or redirecting to the more correct term Ecchi, the article describes the English usage with several explanatory notes on the true meaning of the word. It's quite similar to the situation we have here, in my opinion.

Anyway, to lay out my thoughts on the matter clearly:

• The Visual novel page currently expands the term to encompass games that Japanese would term "adventure games" and not "visual novels." This is inaccurate.
• However, few English speakers use the term "adventure games" to describe any of these games. The English definition of adventure games includes free exploration and puzzle-solving, things which most Japanese AVGs lack, as integral elements.
• Instead, English speakers tend to refer to all novel-type games as "visual novels."
• The distinction between visual novels and adventure games is not clear cut, according to the Japanese Wikipedia. The central game elements- detailed novel-like story, CG cutscenes, limited interactivity, etc.- are common to both genres.
• There exists a precedent on the English Wikipedia that when a foreign-language term has been misappropriated, the page on that term should nonetheless cover the English-language usage of that term, with an explanatory section describing the true meaning of the word. Such a section exists on this page.
• There is also a section of Adventure game describing the expanded Japanese usage of the genre term.
• In my opinion, it would cause more confusion to revise or rewrite this page with the correct Japanese usage of the terms involved, as this creates two dilemmas- confusion with the distinct English usage of the genre term "adventure game", and puzzlement at the non-usage of the popular English label "visual novel"- in place of one minor one: puzzlement by Japanese natives and those very familiar with Japanese culture at the misusage of "visual novel".

In any case, I'll do some rearrangement of the page to make those notes more prominent; hopefully that will be to your satisfaction. -Seventh Holy Scripture 09:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for laying out the points, especially with respect to precedents. And thanks for the rearrangement, it does read better now, and gives me the first stirrings of some idea of how to further revise the article in baby-steps that still has this article covering both genres. I'll sleep on it a bit. -Afker 10:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

History?

This article doesn't contain any info on the history of visual novels... When was the first one released? What was it like technically? Try to name a few important visual novels. Shinobu 03:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Shizuku, Kizuato, and then ToHeart by Leaf pretty much started it. I'm aware there were sound novels/random eroge beforehand. ToHeart is perhaps the most important VN of all time because it transformed the genre from mostly-ero to mostly-story and added the high school setting. Then came Kanon from Key which nearly eliminated the ero aspect in addition to being extremely popular. (Kanon was also among the first to have an anime adaptation.) And now VN is a very popular genre, with (some number over 50)% of PC games sold in Japan being VNs and then you get things like F/sn PS2 nearly outselling Super Paper Mario (insert reference here). Blah blah, somebody else reword this shit to make sense in the article if you want. Moogy ^(talk) 13:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

You missed Otogirisou —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enerccio (talk • contribs) 03:01, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Phoenix Wright coverage

Though this suggestion is not as fundamental as others here, I believe that a little better coverage of the importance of Phoenix Wright being a hit outside of Japan would enhance the article. I think it should have a small section describing how it is the first ADV game to be considered a true hit outside of fan cycles, and a "See Also:" link to the Ace Attorney wikipedia page. People reading this will become aware of Phoenix Wright being an ADV game and will see the potential the genre holds outside of eroge.Gaming otaku 21:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. Rather I suggest removing all references to Ace Attorney BECAUSE it is not a visual novel. Read the article, AA doesn't have mostly static graphics and also has more interaction than a visual novel. It's an adventure, plain and simple. I might also add that Gyakuten Saiban (AA's Japanese title) is never mentioned in the Japanese Wikipedia Visual Novel article nor is the genre of GS given as VN anywhere. Japanese Wiki has it as court battle which is probably also the official genre denomination used by Capcom. I'd like to discuss this here before removing the PW references but I will do so in a week or so. 81.210.146.224 (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you played Phoenix Wright? Static graphics abound. The Japanese article doesn't list the series as a "visual novel" because that term has a more specific meaning in Japanese that refers more to the presentation of the text (it fills the screen instead of a small box). The Ace Attorney series are visual novels with elements of more traditional adventure games.--Remurmur (talk) 00:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. The article states that the text in visual novels is all over the screen while in (Japanese) adventures it is displayed in the lower half. Like in Phoenix Wright. And yes, I played all the Gyakuten Saiban games before they were even out in the US. They are heavily animated and not static at all. VN have mostly static illustrated backgrounds for text and use animation sparsely. Also, PW cannot really be described as a novel in any sense. There's no prose, only dialogue. VN describe the environments in prose text, the actions of the characters, their expressions, etc. They're novels in the literal sense of the word. PW is more like a comic or a cartoon even. Words are only used for dialogue, environments are depicted as graphics, not described in words. Actions are depicted as graphics, not described in words. Expression as well. And if PW was a VN, it would certainly be stated in the Japanese Gyakuten Saiban article. But it is not. 81.210.146.224 (talk) 23:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

What the Japanese Wikipedia does or does not say is irrelevant. The meaning of the term "visual novel"--along with other words such as "anime", "manga", "otaku", and "hentai"--differs between English and Japanese.--Remurmur

Visual novel is not widely used like the terms you listed. Misuse can become the proper use over time, once the majority adopts a term in that way, like "hentai" for example. But the term visual novel is only used for Japanese games, most of which never come out here, by people who intend to use it in the Japanese sense. The majority of people refer to Phoenix Wright as a adventure (GameFAQs, Gamespot, IGN, etc.), like the Japanese do as well. The mainstream doesn't even know the term visual novel. The article obviously describes the Japanese term, there is no English term yet that differs from the Japanese. And we should keep it that way. Wikipedia is supposed to state the facts, not create them. 81.210.146.115 (talk) 19:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

(talk) 09:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I've played quite a few VNs myself, and I think that while PW has a lot of similarities, calling it one is a bit misleading... It does have much more interaction than one would typically see... 98.238.188.211 (talk) 10:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Phoenix Wright is listed under the Visual Novels section at DMOZ. Admittedly, I did this, but nobody has changed it. Shii (tock) 17:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC) I don't see a problem with listing Ace Attorney as a visual novel just because it has an above-average amount of screen animation. Plenty of games that are widely considered visual novels have a decent amount of screen animation, so I don't think that would disqualify a game. If anything, I'd worry more about the gameplay aspects of the series, but even there they seem to be dominated by the visual novel parts. — PyTom (talk) 21:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

There are no visual novel parts in Phoenix Wright. Visual novels are like Choose your own adventure books, they have a written narrative with descriptions of the surroundings, the characters, their expressions, etc. They are the electronic equivalent of books/novels. Phoenix Wright uses text mostly for dialogue, everything that can be expressed graphically is shown on screen. In visual novels graphics supplement the text, they don't substitute it like in comics, film or other video games like normal adventures. Every element you find in PW you find in standard adventures, but not necessarily in visual novels. PW has point and click interaction with the graphically depicted environments. You don't find that in visual novels at all. Set commands (talk, walk, inventory, examine) that are usable in most situations are also not present in visual novels, where the written narrative is interrupted by multiple choices that are not standardized like the commands in PW. I know, PW also features multiple choice situatiuations, but these add to the interaction and are also present in other adventures and even RPGs. What differentiates visual novels from earlier types of adventures is the severe reduction of interaction (the multiple choices are practically the only way of interacting) and the addition of a novel-like narrative featuring descriptions. 81.210.146.115 (talk) 19:46, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Plagarism from the Blade Enginge homepage?

I've noticed that part of the article seems to derive verbatim from the Blade Visual Novel Engine webpage. Mizunori (talk) 23:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

No, more likely the Blade Engine webpage derives verbatim from Wikipedia. According to archive.org, Blade's page dates from around August 7, 2006 while the text in question was written in its original form by User:Duty in late 2004. Also, I'm User:Duty under a new username, so I think I would have remembered had I copied it from somewhere. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 03:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

bluelinks in ==seealso==

I deleted those because they were already linked in the template at the top.68.148.164.166 (talk) 08:05, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Witch Hunt

Since Ryukishi07, the creator of Umineko no Naku Koro ni, appears to have officially endorsed [2] [3] the fan translation of his work done by Witch Hunt, would it now be acceptable to mention and link to it in the "Translations" section (as well as on the Umineko no Naku Koro ni page?) -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 19:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Ported to the Sega Dreamcast?

Are they still being ported to the Dreamcast, or is this statement just referring to the fact that they once were? If it is the latter, I think it should be revised to be more clear, as I was under the assumption that the Dreamcast was pretty much dead nowadays... 98.238.188.211 (talk) 10:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

According to [4], the latest Dreamcast game was released in 2007, so my assumption is that the statement is outdated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.237.223.72 (talk) 13:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Trauma Center... really?

I'll buy Ace Attorney and Snatcher as similar enough to VNs to warrant mention, but unless the later entries in the series have changed greatly since the first DS game that I played, dialogue is hardly the focus of Trauma Center. If any game with some VN-style sequences counts as a visual novel, we might as well mention games like Ar tonelico too... or why not Puzzle Quest? It's got dialogue sequences like that too.

While the page Trauma Center (series) also claims the games are visual novels, the Japanese Wikipedia pages state they are action games and as far as I can tell do not mention visual novels anywhere. I say remove it, anyone else have an opinion? Any Japanese sources that bill the games as visual novels would be of interest as well. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 04:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The Japanese use "visual novel" in a more restrictive sense than we do in the West; I have not played Trauma Center but of what I can tell the framing and narrative portions of the game are in visual novel style, interspersed with action/puzzle sequences, which would put it in the (Japanese) category of "adventure games" (not the same as Western adventure games), which in the West are lumped in with visual novels. - JRBrown (talk) 20:16, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Dubious one as titles like Rune Factory 2 also use VN mechanics to advance the plot, but also rely heavily on non-VN elements. Wikipedia does not have an article on Hybrid-genre video games, let alone a list.陣内_Jinnai 20:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Developing list of English-translated VNs

Because of the number of start/stub articles that fail and have no hope of ever passing the WP:GNG I've started up a list at User:Jinnai/VN. Right now I'm taking entries off vndb.org. This pertains only to Japanese VNs translated to English. If you want to help feel free to add entries.陣内_Jinnai 20:59, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

as far as i know you can find them all here TLwiki.Ald™ N☺Nym☻us 00:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be a problem with one part here.

Look at this...

Sound Novels is a trademark of Chunsoft, which used the term for its novel games such as Portopia Renzoku Satsujin Jiken, Otogirisō, Kamaitachi no Yoru, Machi, 428: Fūsa Sareta Shibuya de (which received a perfect 40/40 score from Famitsu), and more recently 999: Nine Hours, Nine Persons, Nine Doors.

The Portopia Serial Murder Case was released roughly six years before Otogirisou, which is the one first labeled a Sound Novel. And there are some differences between Portopia and the Sound Novels of the future. Therefore, I suggest a change with that part, maybe remove Portopia entirely. That's all. 120.28.64.71 (talk) 14:53, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

If you're talking about removing it from that list of sound novels, fine. If you're talking about removing every instance of Portopia from the article, no.陣内_Jinnai 15:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll remove 999 as well from the list, then. It's more of an Escape-the-room Visual Novel. 120.28.64.76 (talk) 06:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Me again. And here's what the Japanese Chunsoft article has to say...

サウンドノベルシリーズ

   弟切草
   かまいたちの夜
   街 〜運命の交差点〜
   かまいたちの夜2 監獄島のわらべ唄
   かまいたちの夜×3 三日月島事件の真相
   忌火起草
   428 〜封鎖された渋谷で〜

No 999. Now, I removed both games. And I didn't notice the other mention of Portopia. Thought it was only mentioned in the sound novel list. 120.28.64.76 (talk) 06:27, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Visual novels as games

Can someone please explain to me how the typical visual novel is a "game"? Simply selecting a choice that affects the story is not gameplay. "Classification as by the Japanese" (though wouldn't they specifically classify these as "NVL" anyway?) or "marketing strategy" arguments are not going to help much here. A typical visual novel is little different from the Choose Your Own Adventure books, which are most certainly not games. The article even points out those visual novels which do not have choice at all... how are these games? Where is the gameplay? 174.111.81.238 (talk) 12:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Would you agree that VNs at least have game-like elements? The most significant (to me) is interactivity -- your experience of the VN is shaped by your decisions -- which is in contrast with non-game entertainment (such as novels, movies, music). Also, some VNs contain (optional) goals for players to achieve: In a bishōjo game, a goal could be to "win the heart" of a character; make the wrong choices and you fail, and you get to restart and try again. In this regard, I disagree with your assessment that Choose Your Own Adventure books are not games; in fact, they're called gamebooks. Certainly, the choice-less VNs are less game-like and more novel/movie-like than other VNs, but that doesn't mean that all VNs are not games. Polarem (talk) 16:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, it's worth noting that there are quite a few titles commonly referred to as ADVs or visual novels - Baldr Force, Little Busters!, Symphonic Rain, and Utawarerumono are examples - which contain minigames or in some cases gameplay segments as prominent just as the storytelling.

As for the original issue, it seems to boil down to a debate that is summarized under the heading Video_game#Theory; is a game defined by its multimedia presentation or its uniquely interactive nature? I believe Murray's description of the "game as a medium in which we get to become another person, and to act out in another world" applies no less to visual novels, whether interactive or not. Arguing that visual novels with no interactivity are not games, on the other hand, resembles the ludological approach. I doubt we'll have any more success resolving this debate than have the academics, so perhaps we should just recognize there is room for argument. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 19:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I will note in the west - particularly the US - there is some debate about this, but the consensus seems to be they still qualify as games, albeit generally just barely. I'm not sure though if they would say the same for stuff like Higurashi When They Cry or Planetarian: Chiisana Hoshi no Yume would be games.陣内_Jinnai 22:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

"Narratology" seems to care too much about things that aren't particularly relevant to "games", overlooking that a video game is still a type of game; ludology "wins" because it doesn't do this. "Visual novel" and "video game" can be a part of each other, but they can't really be the other. Of course, visual novels with game elements should be considered both for this reason; the big issue here is trying to deal with what would be typical video games that simply have large dialogue sections. Just like with so many words in the English language, we need less people wanting more definitions for a specific word or phrase. Instead, we need new words and phrases, and we need solid definitions for existing phrases so that they fit with others. 174.111.81.238 (talk) 01:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe that's because narratology is the study of narratives, and it classifies games as a subset of narratives (i.e. all games are narratives, but not all narratives are games); narratology is concerned with "things that aren't particularly relevant to 'games'" because it's a study of many things, not just games. Ludology says that games are NOT subsets of narratives -- they are their own category. Funnily enough, it looks like the question we've been asking is, "Are visual novels a subset of video games, or are they their own category?" As Seventh Holy Scripture pointed out, the game theorists are still developing a consistent, comprehensive framework for studying and categorizing games. Maybe when they make more progress, we can neatly specify the relationship between VNs and video games.

By the way, I wasn't sure what you meant by "the big issue here is trying to deal with what would be typical video games that simply have large dialogue sections". Could you please elaborate? --Polarem (talk) 14:46, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

interactivity -> game. If you object that the amount of interactivity is small, then Tic-tac-toe is not a game. --Beroal (talk) 15:22, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Visual Novel as games probably come from another element on it... since u can add RPG, RTS, or another element on visual novel. for example RPG on Utawarerumono.Ald™ ¬_¬™ 07:38, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The only difference between a VN and any other game is the ratio of interaction to cutscene. 111.69.195.193 (talk) 12:01, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Except there are many games with no cutscenes. Simply put, visual novels are interactive japanese comics, not video games. To call them games would be as silly as calling motion comics games. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.3.45.148 (talk) 23:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to observe that if you continue to push your edits (which will be soon considered edit warring, by the way), you should refrain from changing the title of Cavallaro's book in the citations. It is not within the power or purview of any Wikipedia editor to alter the titles of published books. -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 01:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Many Visual Novels are remade and sold in Japan on both mobile and console platforms, and more importantly, are then rated by video game review boards. Movies, novels, and comic books are not subjected to the same requirements but rather those of their respective mediums. The industry therefore views them as video games. Jacotto (talk) 01:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

That means nothing since "mobile and console platforms" also have cartoons and other shows, in other words non video game media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.202.8 (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

The cartoons and other shows on mobile and console platforms are not rated by a self-described video-game rating board. Visual novels are. I'm repeating myself though, and this discussion is pointless if you're going to ignore prior points made. See DSQ's post below for further information. Jacotto (talk) 13:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Acording to many sources, including wikipedia, a book is: a set of written, printed, illustrated, or blank sheets, made of ink, paper, parchment, or other materials, usually fastened together to hinge at one side. and a novel is a book of long narrative in literary prose. What I am trying to say is VN's aren't books because they aren't made of paper and they aren't electronic novels/books because you have to make choices in order to progress the story. 'Make your own adventure' books are considered games by alot of people but they are still considered books because you can get a paper version. You cannot have a paper version of a VN as many of them have animated sequences and the visuals in VN's are just as important as the prose. At best you have a argument for motion comics, but even then only maybe in my opinion. Also can whoever keeps editing this page and Katawa Shoujo page please stop until this discusion is finnished? DSQ (talk) 13:35, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, these "sources" also will tell you there are things called e-books, a physical copy has nothing to do with being a book. Visual Novels are neither books nor games, however. Oh, and I'm not sure why someone would think ratings confirm they're games, but either way it doesn't matter since according to Wikipedia the ESRB, a rating company, is "for computer and video games as well as entertainment software", visual novels are just entertainment software. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.241.173.211 (talk) 18:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

According the ESRB website, the ESRB "assigns computer and video game content ratings." Jacotto (talk) 14:29, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that visual novels are entertainment software. Also, "The Entertainment Software Association is... exclusively dedicated to serving the... needs of companies that publish computer and video games for video game consoles, personal computers, and the Internet." I agree that we can't say that "A games rating board has rated VNs, therefore VNs are games", but we can say that "the video games industry views VNs as games". Personally, I classify VNs as games because they satisfy my "game criteria" of interactivity (user actions affect the VN's outcome) and goal-achievement (users of VNs try to reach goals within the VN). Other people (including academics) might use other criteria, and reach different conclusions. May I ask what criteria you've used, to conclude that VNs are neither books nor games? Polarem (talk) 15:32, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

RPG Hybrids section, is it really necessary?

The data inside is all correct, Lost Odyssey and Sakura Wars are RPGs with VN-hybrid elements. However, they are not VNs, they simply have VN elements. Now, nothing in that section is inaccurate, but I'm just questioning the need for it to be in this article.

Note the last two edits. The unnamed editor mistakenly removed it because s/he though (as did I) that Sakura Wars should not be in there, but then I realized that the section only states it has VN-style elements. This means that the revert done right after is correct. I merely question the relevance of this entire section in the first place, as VNs are a very small part of their gameplay, thus making these sections possibly better suited within the History of Eastern role-playing video games article instead. Overmage (talk) 07:04, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it might have been added in part due to the discussion above this one, in which games in other genres with VN elements (and in some cases referred to as VNs themselves, typically when they are made by a company which is well known for developing eroge- for example, the Rance series) were brought up to justify the classification of visual novels as a subgenre of games. However, the published sources claiming that they are were really all we needed to settle that argument. (Until someone comes up with a published source claiming that VNs aren't games.) -Seventh Holy Scripture (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Hmm it just feels strange, it would be like classifying Hellgate: London inside the FPS page, if you know what I mean. Not that it's wrong, just feels like a stretch. For the record, I feel VNs are games, but the thing is, these examples here are only VNs in very small part. Are there possibly better examples (at least, better than Lost Odyssey?) Even Rance would be preferable, I think. A very large portion of Japanese games have some sort of ADV-style narrative in them, so that distinction might be a little vague. Overmage (talk) 06:30, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

...strong point of the genre

"While the plots and storytelling of mainstream video games is often criticized, many fans of visual novels hold them up as exceptions and identify this as a strong point of the genre."

Can somebody explain this phrase to me? E.g., criticized for what? --Beroal (talk) 15:24, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticized for being a crappy story. Nintendo Maniac 64 (talk) 03:06, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Criticism for visual novel in Vietnam

From this article in Vietnamese Wikipedia, there is a part that criticism for visual novel from Association of Universities and Colleges Vietnam. I think if possible, please translate it into article, to take a comprehensive look. I use Google translate for paragraph:

In Vietnam, in early September 2012, a series of articles on the website of the Association of Universities and Colleges of non-public has strongly criticized sex game and shared visual novel vie the internet in Vietnam [49]. The first articles of this series reflect only the negative consequences caused by the sex game, however the article then focuses on visual novel for that harm the visual novel is extremely large and the rating, "the vast majority" of these format is "sex game" with the contents of rape, abuse and incest; articles have even attack the player visual novel.[50][51] this has created a wave of strong opposition in the visual novel fans community in Vietnam through the forum and major website [52], and the event is ongoing.

Thanks you. --113.180.99.249 (talk) 06:20, 12 September 2012 (UTC)