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Style guideline of gay vs homosexual

This in reference to me changing the offensive term "homosexual" to "gay". Are there similar WP:MOS guidelines on referring to classes of people? Common sense tells me and probably most people not to refer to black people as nigger or Jewish people as kike, but it's a little different in reference to gay vs homosexual. Is this better discussed at WT:MOS? CTF83! 08:38, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

If a quote uses "homosexual" then go with that, otherwise use the more preferred term(s). I don't at all like the connotations of "homosexual" and it's mainly used by homophobes and religious speakers who are again quite often homophobes. Probably better to try WT:MOS. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 09:27, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I hope British and Australian users can also comment on that. For me (a non-native speaker), it's puzzling that bisexual and omnisexual aren't considered offensive by the Americans. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 09:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

As Jenova said on my talk, and is said in the GLAAD term reference guide "homosexual" is a term from the 1970s and before when being gay was considered a disesase. As GLAAD says, "the word 'homosexual,' it is aggressively used by anti-gay extremists to suggest that gay people are somehow diseased or psychologically/emotionally disordered". I'm unaware of the term "bisexual" being labled as a disease even back in the 1970s...well maybe the gay half of them.

Also, FYI, Jenova is British.CTF83! 10:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Maybe people will leap to assumptions about me on the grounds of this, but I certainly do not recognise the term homosexual as outdated, aggresive or biased. I would consider it as simply the opposite of heterosexual, and compared to gay, more formal and technical, and therefore more suited to a project that is meant to have a formal tone. Kevin McE (talk) 11:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, that there are people that want to avoid use of the term does not mean that Wikipedia ignores reliable sources out of sympathy for a particular point of view. When one term has several meanings, some of them pejorative, and the other is a formal term with a precise and unambiguous meaning, I don't think it makes sense to avoid the formal wording for the sole purpose of avoiding offense to a minority of individuals. - SudoGhost 11:44, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure I'll draw criticism from this but of course you don't think the word homosexual is outdated being a Catholic Ministry of 21 years, those are exactly the kind of people who promote that word as all link to the past clinical connotations of the word. like I've said before we don't use nigger anymore because it offends black people, it doesn't offend me but the fact that offends a group of people we shouldn't use it. CTF83! 11:48, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Too damn true you will draw criticism for personalised prejudice. You know nothing of the position I took in disputes when I was a member of the church, of my reasons for leaving ministry, or of my current beliefs. Blatant prejudice of exactly the type that I'm sure you think you are railing against. Kevin McE (talk) 12:08, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

For the record, CTF83 has been asked to consider either justifying or retracting this highly prejudiced comment, but deleted the request, made an unfounded accusation on my talk page, and then threatened to report me at admins' noticeboard, without specifying what offence I am meant to have committed. Kevin McE (talk) 14:39, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

You've already been told that using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views is rather inappropriate, and has no bearing on how Wikipedia articles are presented. You've ignored this request on my talk page, but please show any evidence that "homosexual" is anywhere near the same as "nigger". This argument of yours has absolutely no weight, as reliable sources do not use that racial term to describe people, where as reliable sources do use homosexual. - SudoGhost 12:12, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

"However, this does not mean that Wikipedia should include material simply because it is more offensive". To me that says if there is the less offensive word that means the same that should be used instead CTF83! 12:01, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

"simply because it is more offensive" is kind of the key part there. It being "more offensive" is rather disputed, and a less precise term being percieved as "less offensive" does not take priority over everything else. - SudoGhost 12:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Even though I agree with you for the most part, you have offended me for addressing me a "minority". Intended or not, I sincerely ask you to strike your last sentence. SudoGhost. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 12:11, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I have not addressed you at any point; that you share this viewpoint is not intended to be an insult and no insult is intended, but I don't see how it being a minority viewpoint is offensive. If you can show any reliable sources that contradict what I said then I'll gladly strike it, but since it's relevant to discussing the implementation of Wikipedia policy, it's kind of relevant. - SudoGhost 12:19, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflicts) Context, context. When used as a noun, "homosexual" is widely considered offensive (see Usage Note here); such usage should be eschewed in favor of "gay" if possible, but it isn't always possible (e.g., in certain instances dealing with historical figures or events, "gay" would be an anachronism). When it isn't possible, an alternative is to use a phrase such as "homosexual persons" or "homosexual men". That approach can lead to tedious prose if it has to be repeated over and over in an article, but there certainly are fewer objections to the adjectival usage of the word. It's probably worth noting that many people who self-identify as LGBT do not consider the word offensive, even when used as a noun, and that's true among Wikipedians as well as in RL. There may be generational, geographical, and various other cultural differences in play here, and I'd suggest that a one-size-fits-all solution may be a tall order to fill. Rivertorch (talk) 12:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Grossly biased selectiveness in quote of thefreedictionary.com there: it says of homosexual, " It is generally unobjectionable when used adjectivally". Kevin McE (talk) 13:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

That's what I implied above, I think. Btw, thefreedictionary.com is the aggregator; the source is The American Heritage Dictionary, a major dictionary that has contained this usage note for at least the past three editions (i.e., for over 20 years). Rivertorch (talk) 14:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

One thing we should note here is that there is some slightly subtle usage differences, and context will determine which ones to use. 'Gay' can be used to refer both to people who are attracted to people of the same sex, and it can also be used to to refer to a gay identity. David Halperin has written a book on the topic that I'm planning to write an article on shortly. Chris Morris says he doesn't identify as gay in this article. There's different uses: Halperin uses it to refer to a shared culture of camp and so on, while Chris Morris is referring to it pejoratively as being like a "mask" that some people hide behind. All of this differs from Men who have sex with men, the clinical category which is used in things like HIV/AIDS prevention. I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't have a hard-and-fast rule about whether to use "gay" or "homosexual" or even "men who have sex with men". It depends on context and sources (go back far enough and we'll start talking "homophiles"). That said, I will be rather disappointed if the next time a celebrity comes out, their article gets updated to talk about how they are gender "inverts" or some such nonsense. There shouldn't really be politics here: most of the time and in most contexts, if you are referring to a man who is sexually and romantically attracted to other men, you probably want the term "gay". Probably. Not always. There will be exceptions. But that's the term that is in wide use in academic and media sources.

On a personal note, I'm not offended when someone refers to me as a "homosexual"; I just ask them whether they are going to ride in their horseless carriage to visit a phrenologist. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

All we have here is two people who don't give a shit that the term is offensive, and advocate that because it's in some publications it's okay to use. The original link I provided shows 3 major sources, too hard to look on my phone advocate using gay over homosexual, in their major newspaper publications. SudoGhost is just saying because some publications use it it's okay and doesn't give a shit what is offensive when a perfectly non offensive term can easily be inserted with updated 21st century terminology CTF83! 12:52, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

There you go again, casting aspersions against people about whom you know nothing. How about you address the direct act of prejudice that you made against me? Kevin McE (talk) 13:10, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

If you believe that "homosexual" isn't used in the 21st century and that "don't give a shit that the term is offensive" is what you took from everything that was discussed here and on my talk page, you need to go back and read a few things, because that's an incredibly over-simplified red herring. "Gay" also has pejorative uses, and there shouldn't be a blanket rule saying gay is what Wikipedia uses, even when reliable sources use something different, because context is key in understanding what words are used at any given time. . - SudoGhost 13:07, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to point back to my earlier post on this as i believe we should leave it to the editors to decide. If a quote uses "homosexual" then so should we, otherwise leave it to the editor to decide. As a personal preference and being British i certainly wouldn't use homosexual and would avoid sources using that word since they do tend to be more of the religious variety then if i search for "gay" or "lesbian" etc. Homosexual is still offensive to some and there's not going to be a policy decided on using that word in a million years because it will immediately become a thorn people will ignore or use to push POV.

Do a couple google searches for both words and see what you get. It ain't pretty for "homosexual" and the amount of biased crap it brings up wouldn't be usable as reliable in any sense. And i also take offense to use of the word where it isn't necessary. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:54, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure, the point is that offensiveness isn't the issue. The fact is "gay" and "LGBT" (of which "gay" is a component part) are in wide use in academic and other reliable sources. If we are to have a general rule, it should be based on the fact that "gay" is now the widely used academic term. Whether you or I find it offensive isn't a particularly strong argument. Universities teach courses on lesbian and gay studies and so on. The argument for using the term "gay" on Wikipedia begins and ends with the fact that it is the current widely used terminology. Offensiveness doesn't need to come into it at all. —Tom Morris (talk) 13:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Google search is a horrible metric to use. For a general Google search, reliable sources are mixed in with blogspot blogs and unreliable crap on both search terms. Using Google Scholar, "gay" returns a great many more hits than "homosexual", but looking through the first few pages, it turns out that "Gay" is somewhat common last name, and the results were about documents published by indivuduals with that name, as opposed to being the subject matter. Looking deeper, it appears that in a formal context, homosexual isn't as uncommon as is being suggested. This is especially true when being used as a verb, gay is very uncommon as a verb in a formal context. I agree that there shouldn't be a blanket "use homosexual" or "use gay" guideline, because I think that context is critically more important and should be assessed at the article level. - SudoGhost 13:15, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Looking for published style guides, I note that the Guardian simply states that gay is an adjective, not a noun; the Times notes gay as a "fully acceptable as a synonym for homosexual or lesbian"; the Economist points out that homosexual refers equally to men and to women, and the Guardian and the BBC are silent on the matter. None of the online journalistic style guides linked at style guide indicate any preference between the two terms, and none deprecate homosexual. Are there major established style guides that take the opposite view? Kevin McE (talk) 13:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes.1 2 Rivertorch (talk) 14:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Those are both pressure groups for change, not established style guides of major outlets: the fact that there are such active campaigns for change demonstrates the fact that vocabulary has not changed as many here would prefer. While I can appreciate that it may be frustrating, the role of an encyclopaedia written in formal tone is to follow the practice of other publications, not to be in the vanguard of change. Kevin McE (talk) 09:54, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

That's ignorant, should we not have changed slavery laws, voting discrimination, or interracial marriage? If you actually look at the GLAAD page, you'll see they have the guidelines of the Associated Press, New York Times, and Washington Post CTF83! 10:08, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The GLAAD page is not written by GLAAD; it simply reports the style guides of the AP, the NY Times and the Washington Post. And I don't think that using "gay" over "homosexual" is anything close to putting us in the "vanguard of change". - htonl (talk) 10:22, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Kudos to those who actually followed the link, which leads to a page that resoundingly answers Kevin McE's question in the affirmative. Rivertorch (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

I just Googled for use of the word "homosexuals" and the word "gay" in the New York Times. On the first page of results, all of the results for "gay" are from 2012. The results for "homosexuals" aren't: they are mostly from the 1980s and early 1990s. A search for "gay" and "homosexuals" in The Guardian leaves the latter outnumbered "about 9,100" to "about 150,000". (One of the top results is a piece advocating that the Guardian stop using the word 'homosexual'.) BBC has the same: about 113,000 for 'gay' and "about 4,410" for 'homosexuals'. Not a scientific study, but if we're going to follow reliable sources... —Tom Morris (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I also prefer the usage of gay over homosexual especially in a non-medical article. The tem homosexual tries to emphasize the sexual nature of gays and ignores any romantic scope. Pass a Method talk 14:22, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, that is another problem with the terminology. Asexuals have started using the terminology of "heteroromantic", "homoromantic" and "biromantic" to deal with the fact that you may be romantically attracted to people of one gender, the other or both, but not sexually attracted. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:03, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I prefer to use "gay" and "lesbian" as well. But in the context of sexual orientation topics, such as homosexuality, use of "homosexual" is often fine because it's often what the scientific sources use (although they also often use "gay"/"lesbian") and consistently covers more than just exclusively gay men; as we know, it covers lesbians and can cover any same-sex sexual contact. "Homosexuality" as a term covers gay/lesbian/bisexual and any same-sex sexual contact. Also, linking to the Homosexuality article with regard to such topics is usually more beneficial than linking to the Gay article, such as in the case of the Homophobia article. Flyer22 (talk) 15:05, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention, too many people think of "gay man" when they see or hear the word "gay," as even the Homosexuality and Gay articles note that "gay" is more commonly associated with men who are exclusively romantically/sexually attracted to men. Flyer22 (talk) 15:09, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Historical articles should use the word gay with care. For example, discussions of service by gay men and women in the US military circa 1945. The word gay is jarring in that context. Many (I think just about all) of the first set of edits made last night to DADT were well considered, I thought, but ham-fisted when dealing with background decades. I figured I'd wait until the undo-ing festival ended and then do a few modest repairs, with quotes if need be, but one really shouldn't be required to re-write with quotes to make simple points. Words like homosexual and queer are occasionally appropriate. Categorical rules never work. ;) Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 15:28, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Even more so for women. There are women who had they been born today would probably self-identify as lesbians, but who, living 150+ years ago, wouldn't and didn't. It's something that curators who have put together LGBT history exhibits at museums have had to think hard about. The fact that 'lesbian' became an explicitly political label during second-wave feminism doesn't help with that. So, yeah, common sense plus following reliable sources (and by that I mean actual reliable sources, not tabloid newspapers). —Tom Morris (talk) 16:19, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

What we got here is 2 people advocating for homosexual, and several for gay when content approriate. If you look at my original edit/summary I didn't change homosexual when in quotes or in reference to pre-1970ish references. I don't have a problem with the word homosexuality, there is no equivelant word excpet gayness maybe, my problem is calling gay people homosexuals. CTF83! 23:23, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Homosexual is an outdated term that presently is employed by the religious right to further the campaign to denigrate LGBT people. Except in medical usage we should avoid the term, and even medically, non-heterosexual and MSM is used. Sources that prefer the term are generally homophobic or demonstrating how homophobic someone is for using it. The famous example of this is the religios-based hate group American Family Association's news website, OneNewsNow. In 2008 they replaced all instances of "gay" with "homosexual" in re-posted Associated Press articles – changed an AP profile of Olympic sprinter Tyson Gay, rendering his name as "Tyson Homosexual". OneNewsNow similarly altered the name of basketball player Rudy Gay, naming him "Rudy Homosexual". Insomesia (talk) 00:04, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

The only problem is that reliable sources don't agree with that assessment. We don't pick and choose only sources that agree with our viewpoints, and dismiss any that say something we don't like. - SudoGhost 00:53, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

In the absence of use in a medical article, "gay" and "lesbian" should be used instead of "homosexual", given the context and history of the word. Referring to gay people as "homosexuals" isn't proper. As many others have pointed out, using it does generally portray a prejudiced attitude towards gay people, and that's not neutrality. It's different if you are directly quoting a source. Teammm ^talk
_email 00:42, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

So, what's your argument, Sudo? That because right wing and religious sources use the word homosexual, which as Teammm and others pointed out doesn't follow WP:NPOV, we should use the term? CTF83! 00:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Sudo is clearly biased when I call him/her out on their shitty sources. CTF83! 00:58, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

If that's still the tired old story you're sticking to, you need to read what's already been said. The term "homosexual" is used in a formal medical context among other things. Wikipedia does not value sources based on how "left wing" or "right wing" they are; we don't use only sources we agree with, and that precludes the fact that your assessment of the type of sources that use the term is inaccurate. Newspapers, sure. Medical journals et al use the term, it's inappropriate to claim that a given term is "inappropriate" at any given time without actually looking at the source and the situation it's used in; that is a context-blind analysis and I seriously doubt you'll get any consensus to implement any such "blanket" prescribed rule. I'll forgive your ignorance, but your analysis of "stay off my talk page" leaves much to be desired, especially because your "calling out" wasn't very well done, you pointed out things that I had already said and blissfully ignored half the sources, but that's fine since you have made your point clear. Calling me "clearly biased" is rather hypocritical of an editor that only wants others that agree with his points of view to discuss the topic, using personal attacks to discredit those that disagree with them. - SudoGhost 01:09, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Like removing only some of what is said on a talk page that someone doesn't agree with, oh, I see. CTF83! 01:23, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

If that's what you took from that, you have an amazing way of coming so close to what actually happened, and then steering very, very far away from it. However, that has nothing to do with this discussion, and shows the merit of your argument. - SudoGhost 01:32, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Mind you CTF83! Alt, I consider "shit" swear and unconstructive in any discussion. If you would, please stop using such word and labeling people biased who doesn't pro your view. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:45, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

FYI sudo users have agreed to using homosexual in a medical context what you and sameboat reverted was not in a medical context. CTF83! 02:53, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

That kind of goes back to the blanket generalizations thing. I don't see how you came to the leap of logic that "I believe users agreed to one thing therefore everything else must be the opposite." On that, you're not going to find a consensus to agree to any context-blind generalization. - SudoGhost 11:14, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Can we try to establish what we agree on here? How does everyone feel about the following points?

1. When referring to a particular source (e.g. a quote, an opinion poll, etc.) we should use the same wording used in the source.
2. When dealing with people and events before about the 1960s we should be careful about the use of "gay".
3. We should avoid using "homosexual(s)" as a noun. (I think it's clear that this is widely considered offensive?)
4. When talking about specific modern people (BLPs in particular) we should refer to them according to the way they have identified themselves - which usually, these days, means "gay" or "lesbian" rather than "homosexual".

I'd also say that I agree with everything Tom Morris has posted here. - htonl (talk) 10:54, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• Support 100% ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 12:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• I think those are excellent guidelines. The only addition I would suggest is to the second point, to note that homosexual is also a relatively modern word and its use can be anachronistic as well. From Epistemology of the Closet by Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick:

"There is, I believe, no satisfactory rule for choosing between the usages 'homosexual' and 'gay,' outside of a post-Stonewall context where 'gay' must be preferable since it is the explicit choice of a large number of the people to whom it refers. Until recently it seemed that 'homosexual,' though it severely risked anachronism in any application before the late nineteenth century, was still somehow less temporally circumscribed than 'gay,' perhaps because it sounded more official, not to say diagnostic. That aura of timelessness about the word has, however, faded rapidly — less because of the word's manifest inadequacy to the cognitive and behavioral maps of the centuries before its coining, than because the sources of its authority for the century after have seemed increasingly tendentious and dated. Thus 'homosexual' and 'gay' seem more and more to be terms applicable to distinct, nonoverlapping periods in the history of a phenomenon for which there then remains no overarching label."--Trystan (talk) 15:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

• Yes. A good summary, and a useful addendum from Trystan. There may be valid exceptions to all of the above, but it gets the gist of it right. Rivertorch (talk) 21:55, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
• These are good points, I would amend the first one, as to use of sources, to utilizing the best sources possible and attempt to match the wording within reason. Sometimes we need to quote directly, other times we need to use Wikipedia's voice. I think we also need to underscore the legacy of homosexual which is lost on many editors but has seeped into sources for decades.

  The study of mental health of lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) populations has been complicated by the debate on the classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder during the 1960s and early 1970s. That debate posited a gay-affirmative perspective, which sought to declassify homosexuality, against a conservative perspective, which sought to retain the classification of homosexuality as a mental disorder (Bayer, 1981). Although the debate on classification ended in 1973 with the removal of homosexuality from the second edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM; American Psychiatric Association, 1973), its heritage has lasted. This heritage has tainted discussion on mental health of lesbians and gay men by associating—even equating—claims that LGB people have higher prevalences of mental disorders than heterosexual people with the historical antigay stance and the stigmatization of LGB persons (Bailey, 1999).

  The religious right still promotes the persistent use of homosexual to spread Anti-Gay Myths. Insomesia (talk) 00:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

  • I'm not seeing the connection you're making here. What you quoted is saying that homosexuality was once classified as a mental disorder, and that it is no longer. It says nothing about usage of the term in particular. The link you provided also says nothing about the term itself, but rather itself uses the term, not only when quoting "the religious right", but in their own words as well (but only as a verb, unless I'm mistaken). - SudoGhost 01:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
    • If you're not seeing the connection after it's been explained elsewhere I'm not sure how it could be more clear. LGBT people were demonized as being diseased solely on the basis of who they were attracted to and loved. This was institutionalized homophobia endemic in scientific literature. Since the mid-1970s LGBT people have fought for less demonizing self-descriptors for themselves and mainstream society has accepted gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, as well as queer and other terms replacing any usage homosexual just as negro has been replaced with more modern terms: During the American Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s, some black American leaders in the United States, notably Malcolm X, objected to the word, preferring Black,[4] because they associated the word Negro with the long history of slavery, segregation, and discrimination that treated African Americans as second class citizens, or worse. Since the late 1960s, various other terms have been more widespread in popular usage. These include "black", "Black African", "Afro-American" (in use from the late 1960s to 1990) and "African American" (used in the United States to refer to black Americans, peoples often referred to in the past as American Negroes).[5] Arguing that negro is more offensive to some people is ridiculous. That the term is offensive to anyone, specifically those to who the term would apply, is the point. Insomesia (talk) 01:54, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
      • You're still making a leap of logic there. Yes, "LGBT people were demonized as being diseased solely on the basis of who they were attracted to and loved." That isn't being disputed here, so I don't know why you're saying it, what I'm missing is where this turns into "the word homosexual is specifically where the problem is". Also I think that comparing negro to homosexual is where you're shooting yourself in the foot. Sources, including ones you're providing, use the term homosexual, in a way that you're suggesting is offensive, yet they're using the term. This seems to contradict what you're saying about the term. In contrast, I think if you're to find a modern source that uses the term negro to describe someone, it's going to be in the context of appropriateness. - SudoGhost 02:12, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

A lot of people have used the comparison between race and sexuality as both are inbedded traits. That's how hate crime laws work - you can't treat people differently for something they can't help.

I've used the same comparison before on this very page and i believe it was Teammm then who defended it against Lionelt taking offense to the use of the term "slave name".

The discussion was very similar to this one. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 11:59, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

That's quite a red herring you've made there. Nobody is saying the comparison between race and sexuality isn't valid. However, that doesn't mean that any given word is as offensive as another just because of that, and reliable sources contradict that comparison. - SudoGhost 13:58, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

No, multiple reliable sources used in this discussion have shown the opposite of your claim - the word is offensive to a large group of readers and so we should seek to minimise that where possible. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Suggested guidelines for gay and homosexual

Adding a break for accessibility, and hopefully to help coalesce agreement around htonl's suggested guidelines from above (modified):

1. When referring to a particular source (e.g. a quote, an opinion poll, etc.) we should use the same wording used in the source.
2. When using a term to refer to a period before it was widely adopted (1960s for "gay", late 19th century for "homosexual"), be careful to avoid anachronism.
3. We should avoid using "homosexual(s)" as a noun in Wikipedia's voice.
4. When talking about specific modern people (BLPs in particular) we should refer to them according to the way they have identified themselves - which usually, these days, means "gay" or "lesbian" rather than "homosexual".

Regarding the SPLC article there was some disagreement as to how to characterize its use of homosexual, which it might be helpful to clarify. It uses the noun homosexuality 28 times, including in the SPLC's voice; I don't think there is any question about this usage. Outside of quotes, it uses homosexual as an adjective 4 times (all of which occur when attributing positions to others), vastly preferring gay. It uses homosexual or homosexuals as nouns only in quotes from anti-gay organizations ("the homosexual must be completely eliminated," "the Nazi party was entirely controlled by militaristic male homosexuals"). In other words, it agrees strongly with the points suggested above. As an adjective, homosexual is occasionally appropriate, especially when paraphrasing. It should not be used as a noun in Wikipedia's voice. This is in strong agreement with the AP and WP style guides. So can we agree that the above points (with suggested modifications) are a good guideline, and that further discussion on specific uses can occur in articles?--Trystan (talk) 16:32, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, but conforming to point 3 will require changes in a lot of articles, and some of those changes will inevitably be contentious. I've stumbled across unnecessary usage of the noun form in innumerable articles over the years. I used to change it, when it seemed appropriate, but I sort of gave up at some point. Rivertorch (talk) 17:09, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Support 100% - as stated above. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 10:21, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Support. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 01:10, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Support CTF83! 00:35, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Support Pass a Method talk 22:29, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Support Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:39, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Robert Kosilek

Shouldn't Robert Kosilek be Michelle Kosilek ? 68.162.221.100 (talk) 18:00, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

 Done - Thanks for pointing that out mate! Have a nice day/evening! ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 18:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Category proposal

I suggest we create Category:LGBT people from the United States by state, and then create at least a few for the individual states, such as Category:LGBT people from California, Category:LGBT people from New York, and Category:LGBT people from Illinois (the more populous states). Its interesting that there is a deletion discussion for LGBT musicians by nationality. the numbers in these categories are going to keep on getting bigger, and we need more diffusion here. I would go ahead and do this myself, but i think having at least a few people willing to try to populate the categories would help. I am focussed on California/San Fran bay area generally in my work, and i am also not a particular expert on the LGBT community in Cali, so i might not be able to recognize names from the larger list to recategorize.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 22:08, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Portal:Society for featured portal consideration

• Portal:Society

I've nominated Portal:Society for featured portal candidacy, discussion is at Wikipedia:Featured portal candidates/Portal:Society. Thank you for your time, — Cirt (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Maps

Changes to geographical mapping of laws that are in effect is being discussed at Talk:Same-sex_marriage#Map_colour_changes. Student7 (talk) 23:11, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Brandon Teena#Definitively settling the issue of pronoun

Since this topic keeps coming up on that talk page, I figured that it might be a good idea to get more comments from this project weighing in about it on that talk page. Like I stated there, I don't feel that MOS:IDENTITY should be violated (in this case or in any other case). But others here may feel differently. And if there is anything that can be done to take away readers' confusion without violating MOS:IDENTITY, I'm open to it. At Chaz Bono, all pronouns were once excluded in a way that they weren't needed, and, when they were needed, "Bono" was used instead. That's no longer the case for that article, however. And, from what I see, given the type of text involved, it would be more difficult not to refer to Brandon Teena by male pronouns. Flyer22 (talk) 01:21, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I think a FAQ may help there, then every soapboxer or questioner can be referred there, even though there is a nice bold statement at the top of that page. Insomesia (talk) 02:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

LOL. You may be right, Insomesia. I'd seen that the same was done at Talk:Homophobia. Flyer22 (talk) 02:13, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Teena Brandon, again

We could use more eyes on the article on Teena Brandon again. See talk page for details. Thanks. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Homophobia article talk page

It looks like you guys are unpopular at ANI. My advice is for you basically ignore talk page rants. Keeping some proportions, they remind me of someone posting various nonsense at Talk:P versus NP problem; that 'someone' has been doing it for years, but it's hardly worth the trouble replying. Tijfo098 (talk) 03:42, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

I think we're dealing with an extreme case and after a year holding the talkpage hostage the editors there are seeking relief. Surely every article deserves to have a talkpage that actually functions to improve the article? At least in theory? Insomesia (talk) 08:05, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

A lot of it is a perfect example of homophobia. Case and point - we're being accused of being LGBT activists for upholding policy or disagreeing with one editor wanting to redefine the word without a single source. The editor has a lot of support from people no matter what he does quite clearly. Thanks ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 13:12, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

More eyes re Matthew Shepard

Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act and related articles have undergone some recent changes that I think are troubling in terms of undue weight. If anyone else would care to take a look, I'm stepping back and returning to RL for a bit. Rivertorch (talk) 19:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

LGBT in the USVI

Hi everyone, I've been working on Caribbean articles about the United States Virgin Islands and noticed there isn't an article for LGBT rights in the United States Virgin Islands. I'm really curious about what is legal there as its a US territory and noticed that Puerto Rico got its own article so why not one for the USVI? I would start it but have no info about the subject. I figured you guys would be the ones to turn to for help. Thanks so much. --Turn685 (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Richard Howard

After this intermittently boring and fascinating poet gave a lecture at my school, I bought one of his collections, which was largely about both his homosexuality and other notable historical gays (plus this one poem where he theorizes that Castor and Pollux were into some serious twincest). Anyways, went to his article, saw that while it was in several gay/LGBT categories, there was no mention, so I added a "Personal life" section on his sexuality and a few other things. But I was surprised that I was only able to find brief mentions of his sexual orientation in a few sources, considering he's been out in some circles since the 60s, and there's no shortage of reliable coverage of him. So I was wondering if anyone could track down anything more in-depth. (I also recommend his work to anyone who likes reading poets who see the world through a very rainbow-tinted lens. Template:Image) — Francophonie&Androphilie^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 04:14, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Disagreement

There has been a disagreement here about the usage of gay vs homosexual. We have differing interpretations of Trystan's proposal at the top of this page. Any thoughts? Pass a Method talk 13:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

An editor is removing lesbian content on Wikipedia based on his personal opinions -- WP:IDONTLIKEIT

User:MikeFromCanmore is a newly registered account and he is removing lesbian content on lesbian or lesbian-related articles in a fashion that can only be described as WP:IDONTLIKEIT. See this edit to the Lesbianism in erotica article,[1] this edit to the Cunnilingus article,[2] where he removed the lesbian image and then asserted on the talk page that cunnilingus is more commonly performed by males,[3] and these edits to the Lesbian sexual practices article.[4][5][6][7].

The editor clearly doesn't understand Wikipedia policies and guidelines, and needs a warning about what is wrong with his removals. It doesn't appear that he's going to stop reverting, and so may eventually get blocked for WP:Edit warring. 220.255.2.167 (talk) 07:53, 10 December 2012 (UTC)