Talk:Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson and slavery, summary style

I just removed one of twelve paragraphs in the section about slavery, for reasons of synthesis. More paragraphs should be removed, reduced or condensed so that only two or three remain. Per Wikipedia:Summary style, most of the detail about the sub-topic should be placed in the main article about that issue: Thomas Jefferson and slavery. Only the major themes should be presented here. Binksternet (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

In the various Jefferson articles there is sometimes a rather large area of overlap as content goes, especially when a given article lends itself to a subject just as, or near, as much. This is not to say that the the biography here should have as much coverage, or weight, as a dedicated article(s) covering a topic, sometimes. Many topics are just as pertinent to the Jefferson biography as they are to the other various pages that (may) cover any given subject. As for synthesis, you didn't articulate this idea much at all. You may want to review that policy so as not to make the typical mistake/oversight that is common to this policy. i.e OR and advancing new positions, which has not occurred on this page. -- Gwillhickers 05:39, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Wha..? There should never be a "large area of overlap", not to the tune of 12 paragraphs.

As far as synthesis goes, believe me, I know the policy. You should not be using various primary sources to arrive at an interpretation of Jefferson's thoughts and actions. Binksternet (talk) 06:28, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

You need to put your horses in front of your cart. Please explain your issues before coming in and making sweeping changes. Most of the content on the page here was arrived at by, often lengthy, discussion. Overlap exists everywhere on WP, sometimes considerably so, and rightly so, so readers don't have to hop around from page to page to read about a topic that is well suited on a given page. You also might want to peek into some of the dedicated pages to see if they're covering things as well as you seem to be claiming they are. Have you done so first before coming here, perhaps half blind? Where are these "twelve paragraphs" -- all on one other page? I don't think so. Again, highlight your issues and then if need be cite the exact policy that you feel may support it rather than coming in here with a disruptive approach. Also, the listing in the infobox was arrived at by much debate and including 'architect', then 'amateur architect' was agreed on as a compromise. Please review the discussion to see if it covers any issues you may have here also. If not, feel free to raise any issue that wasn't addressed several times already. -- Gwillhickers 16:52, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, have you read Wikipedia:Summary style and WP:NOTPAPER? While I understand the desire for well-rounded articles, summary style is a long-standing and widely respected guideline. It sometimes leaves somewhat jarring holes, but, on the other hand, if we put everything of interest into this article, we will arrive at something akin to Dumas Malone's Jefferson biography. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:09, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

If you would like to scale down the slavery section kindly make specific points below. We can do this so long as the section doesn't read like a police report without any balance. 'Summary style' doesn't mean giving a depleted and out of context account of the issue. We've all been down this road, but if you prefer to ignore the rest of the article for the next several months we can discuss what has been discussed many times -- all over again. -- Gwillhickers 17:46, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, with this edit you have violated WP:BRD. Your talk page response here is just general stonewalling rather than reasoned defense of specific paragraphs that I removed. The burden is on the person who wants to include text, not remove text. The burden is on you.

Certainly, this section of the biography has been the subject of past discussion. In August 2009 at the GAR discussion, Cmguy777 noted that the article lacked any mention of slave life at Monticello, and that it should have "one or two paragraphs" of such material. Cmguy777 was commenting on this version of the article in which the slavery section was already too large at 1158 words including some long quotes sourced to primary documents. This version of the article lost its GA status in September 2009. The slavery section crept larger and larger but was intermittently reduced again, for instance this large cut by User:Brad101 in May 2012. The slavery section was the focus of a lot of back-and-forth editing activity in July and August 2012. By mid-August, Brad101 observed that the slavery section was "full of cherry picked quotes" and was too large at 641 words. The tempering hand of Brad101 stopped appearing here later that month. Without him, your version today has ballooned to 1453 words, wasting the reader's time with details.

Gwillhickers, I can see in past discussions on this matter you have had to defend the article against editors who seemed to want to paint TJ as a cruel slave master. Counter complaints were lodged against you that you wanted a white-washed version instead, with slave life at Monticello depicted as an idyl. Count me out of that discussion—my only concern here is brevity. I will leave it to topic experts to compose two or three succinct paragraphs about the most important themes relevant to the biography and to decide which portions should be taken to the sub-article. I'm not going to weigh in on the question of what kind of slave master was TJ; I trust you and the other editors here to get it right. The result should be a summary. Binksternet (talk) 18:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

All of the fussing and fighting over this article is but only one reason why I've been gone almost a year now. I'm sick to death of this article because of Gwill and CMguy. They've held this article hostage for over two years with this bullshit. I've stated here repeatedly until I was blue in the face about the article size and it's really not a surprise that it ballooned up again while I wasn't looking. Also not a surprise are the boatloads of discussion wasted arguing about something as stupid as 'architect' and forgetting about any main objective to move the article along. And CMguy still hasn't learned how to indent his responses. Good luck. I'm done with this crap. Brad (talk) 00:53, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

As painful as it must have been, thank you for weighing in. I think it's important to have the perspective of editors such as yourself who were active on this article a year ago. Binksternet (talk) 01:41, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Blinkerset. "Amateur architect" is what Jefferson is refered to by sources. Gwillhickers edit, in my opinion, was extremely conservative and done out of compromise between editors. The slavery section, possibly could be resummarized, but we really worked hard on the first paragraph, the most important in the slaves and slavery section. Please do not change that first paragraph. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Working on summary of slavery

Here are what I think are the main themes of the slavery section:

• TJ lived in a slave society
• TJ believed slavery was bad for the slave and the master
• TJ believed slavery was economically necessary for agriculture in the South
• TJ owned and sold many slaves, about 600 over his life, about 130 at Monticello
• TJ believed the Negro race was inferior
• TJ proposed slavery should end in the West after 1800
• TJ drafted 1778 Virginia law forbidding slave importation
• TJ was criticized for allowing slavery in the Louisiana Purchase
• TJ's views on Gabriel's Rebellion
• TJ opposed the Missouri Compromise, he thought the slavery issue would split the country
• TJ signed into law the 1808 Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves
• TJ was in favor of a gradual phasing out of slavery in the US
• TJ was against international slavery
• TJ was relatively kind to his slaves, providing for them relatively more generously
• TJ eschewed the extremes of violent punishment of slaves, though this wish was not always carried out

Here is what I believe to be excessive detail for this biography. (The details can be taken to Thomas Jefferson and slavery:

• Whether TJ's debt influenced his owning slaves
• Missouri "exploded" the issue of slavery
• TJ refuses one case where overseer kills slave by whipping. (This is just one case, after all.)
• When and where TJ acquired or sold slaves
• People who provided slaves to TJ
• People who obtained slaves from TJ
• Letter to John Holmes
• Details of what slaves did for TJ
• Details of what TJ did for his slaves
• "Moral obligation"
• family separation
• Edward Coles
• General Tadeusz Kościuszko
• Hemings family preferential treatment

Please discuss. Binksternet (talk) 15:07, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I would add 1774 attack on King re slave trade; 1780s law fobid slavery in all territories (lost by one vote but incorporated into NW Territories law). You can drop "TJ was criticized for allowing slavery in the Louisiana Purchase" (that was never on the table); and *TJ's views on Gabriel's Rebellion [minor issue]. Maybe add haiti. Rjensen (talk) 15:38, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Binksternet and Rjensen, and think his view of Haiti was important. Also, I believe that TJ thought that freed slaves could not be integrated into U.S. society and should be repatriated to Africa, which should also be mentioned. TFD (talk) 16:14, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Also largely agree, but do you mean by TJ being against international slavery that he was against the trans-Atlantic slave trade?

My major disagreement is that I think TJ's debt was such a huge factor in his refusal/inability to free any slaves that it should be mentioned. Also, because the Hemings drama looms so large in the public mind right now, I do not strongly support getting rid of the preferential treatment they received. At the least I would say they were the only slaves ever freed. Yopienso (talk) 17:05, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Yopienso, my take on the slavery section is that it should be about Jefferson's general views about, and public practice of slavery. The Hemings material has its own section and was not part of TJ's public discourse. I think any Hemings info should be in the Hemings section but not in the general slavery section. Binksternet (talk) 04:57, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you make a good point; I concur. Yopienso (talk) 07:59, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see a proposal for consideration written along the streamlined lines suggested. As for debt, its complicated, and therefore may need to be relegated to the daughter article. TJ's wealth was slaves, was it not? More so, than land or anything else. So his borrowing was secured against his wealth (slaves). His income was slaves work, so he was sevicing his debt through slavery. (a bit of a chicken and egg problem). As long as our summary says he personally was economically dependent on slavery - that may cover it. As for the few slaves he freed (or let go) that may be a brief sentence at most: "Jefferson personally freed very few slaves; most were related to Sally Hemings." (or some such). As for Haiti, what is the wording of that proposal? Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:45, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I am for taking a more conservative approach to scaling the section down. How Jefferson treated his slaves is important for the biography article. Jefferson's view on the Missouri compromise is signifigant. He predicted the Civil War. Jefferson's letters are important in order to establish Jefferson's views on slavery. Although Jefferson stopped the Atlantic slave trade, slavery was allowed to expand in the South. General Tadeusz Kościuszko is a difficult situation since if Jefferson took on Kościuszko he probably would have been challanged by Kościuszko's family. That would be best left addressed for the Jefferson and slavery article. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

First things first

Seems we're getting ahead of ourselves here, discussing 'tactics', while no overall strategy has been agreed on other than we need to scale down the section. As we can see, there are a lot of issues to sort out. Not only do we have to chose which ones will be covered (not done) we will also be pitted with the task of 'how', and 'how much' each topic will be covered (also not done yet). To make life 'simple', we also have Hemings to deal with. Much controversy and debate has occurred, repeatedly, on that topic alone. So how do we cover all this stuff in the space of one page without the section reading like a dictionary or police report? As the topic of slaves and slavery is complex, with how they lived under Jefferson making it even more complex, we are going to need at least a page to cover this adequately.
Just recently for the first time in a long time, the talk page was involved in a long debate about a topic other than slavery. In spite of disagreements it was nice to dig, review and further explore one of the many neglected topics on this page, for a change. Now it seems were all set to tie up the talk page about slavery, once again, while the other topics rot on the vine because all the editors are dragged into the same debate that has gone on over and over, and this is my optimistic assessment. Yes, editors are free to edit other sections, but it's sort of difficult not to get pulled into the fray when the section and its topics are being skewed, under represented while other topics are highlighted. The existing section, while almost two pages long, is much better than it once was. Hemings coverage all by itself was five pages long when I called for a consensus to scale it down back in March of 2011. It was a long painstaking process but we did it. Take a look at the names who were 'for' and 'against'. Some of them are with us now and at least one has changed his tune. In any case, to cover this section fairly we are going to need at least a page, and no doubt we will have to ignore certain topics to do that. Okay. What topics do we ignore? Which one gets the most coverage? Or do we give one sentence to each topic and pile one on top of the other so we have something that looks like a list in paragraph form? -- Gwillhickers 17:57, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Bink has taken the time, now, to provide a list of topics about which ones should and should not be covered. I disagree with several items already. We need to chose which topics will get covered, first before we start pecking away at individual items. -- Gwillhickers 18:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, we could also see the proposal first. Others are suggesting their quibbles, with Binks lists (few though they maybe, so far). As for the Hemings Controversy section [1] that would seem to be a model, to aim for, since it ultimately was edited down. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

While we're dealing with slavery, once again, the Hemings subject also needs to be addressed. It has its own section. There are many topics about slavery. Does Hemings get its own section, or should it also be included in the slavery section and given summary attention like the other topics? Perhaps now you'll understand why I was opposed to the initial bulldozer approach. There is much to consider here. At least now we're beginning to do that. Given the complexity and variance involved I believe the section is okay, each topic gives special insight into Jefferson, the person, while the Hemings topic should have its own section, as this was a major controversy effecting Jefferson biographies everywhere. If anything we can do without Coles and Kościuszko's last will, but that should be about it imo. -- Gwillhickers 18:44, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, it does not seem that complicated. Both "Slavery and" and "Controversy" are separate related articles to this article, so they have their own summary section in this article. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually it isn't that complicated if we agree. The Controversy' has its own section, so now lets look at this section through the same summary lens we are looking at the Slavery' section. Will the Controversy' section be the standard we use in the slavery section to determine the summary of the many important topics there? Seems we have achieved that already, all of us, to a great degree. I like to think that what we've been doing here for the last three years wasn't a waste of our time and effort. We need to think about more than just the reduction of text space here and remember that we can easily skew a picture by leaving out some of the topics, facts and context. We can trim a few topics, but overall both the slavery and controversy sections, though on the lengthy side, have achieved optimum content and balance. GA and FA goals were recently mentioned. Many lengthy and in depth pages have achieved GA and better. One of the FA requirements is having a subject that has been extensively covered and well written. The one thing that has stood in the way of this page from achieving GA or better are the major and disputed changes that have occurred on a monthly, sometimes weekly, basis. Thanks to most of us here the sections for the first time in a while have remained basically unchanged because we've made them that way. They point to Jefferson's inconsistencies but there is balance and context about. Seems we should keep that in mind if and when we start scaling down the text, if we decide to do that in the degree we all of the sudden seem to think we should employ. I have no problems with omitting coverage of Kościuszko's last will, and Coles correspondence with Jefferson, and we can always grammatically scale down some text, but not the facts. -- Gwillhickers 22:53, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

In the Slavery' section I just removed a couple of topics, some redundant phrases and a few other excessive items, (e.g.wool for slaves, etc). I also moved a small paragraph about Hemings to the Controvery section. If anyone is opposed to these edits go ahead and revert and we'll discuss it. -- Gwillhickers 22:33, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Controversy representation in lede

Lede should reflect what the body of text says, that other historians have noted that all the evidence, most notably that DNA evidence points to other possibilities. This is a controversy and should get fair representation in the lede. There are dozens of notable historians who don't buy into the socio-politically motivated claims by much of the so called "mainstream". We've discussed this before. -- Gwillhickers 20:25, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I've just made a compromise edit. Please see these sources:

Guilty:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/enigma/ellis.html

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/rah/summary/v034/34.4bay.html

Insert : "Guilty"? This is what the closing statement says on the JHU souece :
"On both sides of today's debate, as is also true in older considerations of the Jefferson-Hemings relationship,
Hemings is largely a cipher—a blank slate on which any story can be...

Not guilty:

http://spectator.org/archives/2011/09/07/challenging-the-jefferson-hemi

http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/jefferson-hemings-revisited/30273

Insert : This 'list' leaves much to be desired. There is a large list of descending historians and professors in talk page archives. If we must trudge through all of this stuff again I'll produce it. I'm hoping we've learned from past debates so we can move on to something else besides this reoccurring sideshow. If half the time and energy spent on the controversy went in to overall page improvement, this article would have been a FA a long time ago. This will never happen so long as it remains a controversy amongst us. No one will ever know the truth about the Jefferson - Hemings story for sure, so we should all learn to accept that, keep the presentation neutral and move on. -- Gwillhickers 00:33, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Also please compare the credentials of Joseph Ellis and Mark_Tooley. Basically, it's the fringe at TJHS that disagrees. Yopienso (talk) 22:02, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Appreciate the compromise -- don't appreciate your choice of words here. This so called "fringe" happens to comprise a large body of historians and professors from many notable universities. This "fringe" also includes Herbert Barger, a noted Jefferson historian who worked side by side with Foster when he was doing DNA research. It also includes a former TJF research committee member, Dr. W. M. Wallenborn, who exposed that committee for having made up their minds before they even evaluated the evidence. Agenda, peer driven, POV pushers, the lot of them. In any event, this is not a contest to see whose list is bigger than the other's -- there are enough historians and professors on both sides of the fence to warrant giving fair representation in the lede to both views. The evidence is far from conclusive so all we are doing is presenting opinion about a theory. Some buy it, other's don't. Frankely the lede should just mention a controversy and be done with it and should only give coverage to established historical fact. i.e.Jefferson was the main author of the DOI, etc. As it is, this controversy, this fuzzy theory, is covered more than any other topic in the lede -- and I'm getting sort of tired of having to drag another forget-me-not or half-clueless new comer through these points here on the Jefferson talk page all over again. In any case, thanks for keeping the Jefferson page neutral. -- Gwillhickers 00:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, you present an article questioning the Hemmings story, written by Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, "a conservative religious thinktank noted for its critique of liberal religious groups," which is called "Challenging the Jefferson-Hemings Orthodoxy". Readers of this articles want to know about what informed people think, not fringe views. TFD (talk) 01:44, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

(Insert : edit conflict) "Informed"? FYI, I didn't introduce the Tooley story -- and parroting weasel words like "fringe" only tells us how little you know about who's who out there. The 'rah, rah rah, hooray for our side' sophomoric approach doesn't change the facts, all of which point to other paternal candidates as well. Kindly not speak on behalf of all readers in some underhanded attempt to justify not keeping the section neutral and inclusive of all viable views and facts, and please keep the POV weasel words off the page. The article already mentions "most historians". -- Gwillhickers 04:59, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The mainstream view is that it was TJ's seed, not just some unnamed male family member. Once the male Jefferson line was implicated, historians zeroed in on which person was most likely, and it is TJ. There's no need to overstate the minor viewpoint which attempt to clear the name of Thomas Jefferson without actually naming someone else. Binksternet (talk) 04:49, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Any facts that they used to 'zero in on' Jefferson with also point to other paternal candidates, very easily. This will make about the 50th time this has been discussed. The article already mentions "most historians" only because a couple of highly biased sources (TJF, Brodie, etc) were arrogant enough to make such a claim. It has never been proven, not even qualified (i.e.did they conduct a poll?). There are simply too many others reputable people who can articulate the other viable possibilities, including Dr. W. M. Wallenborn, former TJF committee member who exposed the TJF committee for having made up their minds before they even evaluated the DNA and other evidence, all circumstantial. And btw, someone else has been named. His name is Randolph Jefferson. Once again, this page is not the place to educate the uninformed who come here with their minds already made up and a chip on their shoulder. There are more than enough other sources for this article to give neutral coverage of the various opinions out there. Trying to brush it off as "fringe" only reveals an inability to address this reality honestly. -- Gwillhickers 05:24, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

As stated roughly umpteen times before, opinion had significantly shifted over to TJ paternity before the DNA tests. The DNA tests only led to further confirmation of what was already the majority opinion back then. How does the fact that Jefferson was with Hemings every time she conceived, and that she never conceived when he was not with her "very easily" implicate Randolph? Anyways, sources are near unanimous, the only thing happening is that the so-called "Scholars Commission" has finally managed to publish their report as a book --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert : When DNA results were first released several publications, like Nature magazine, flat out said that the results proved Jefferson was the father. Many others news rags followed in kind eager to sell papers. Eugen Foster, the genealogist who conducted the DNA testing, Herbert Barger his historical consultant and others were outraged. This was in the 1990's and of course there was a big whoooo.. for some years that followed as most of the people in the 'get Jefferson' camp couldn't be, or didn't want to be, bothered with all the other considerations. That was then. The year now is 2013, and many have reevaluated not only the DNA evidence but have considered many other things that got drowned out and swept under the rug with all the political and racially charged hoopla. Considerations such as Randolph Jefferson and his four sons, all of age, who were known to fraternize with slaves at night, up playing his fiddle at late hours in the night. Yet we're supposed to believe that after Callander went public with his Jefferson paternity rumor, with news papers running the story while Jefferson was running for president, that Jefferson, while president, returned to Monticello and fathered two more children by Hemings, right there on the estate with family friends and house keepers all about the place. -- Gwillhickers 17:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Why wouldn't Jefferson go on sleeping with Sally? Callender's story had fizzled the first time - no because nobody believed it, but because it was commonplace in Virginia for white planters to father children with their slaves. It was not unusual, and it was something that polite society politely ignored. Note that e.g. Sally's father was John Wayles, Jefferson's father-in-law and a reasonably well-off member of the planter class. Sally actually was a half-cousin of Jefferson. That did not cause enough of a scandal to make Martha Wayles a bad catch. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:45, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The homecoming of Thomas Jefferson would occasion the overnight stays of Randolph Jefferson. If Thomas Jefferson's parentage were certainly so --- the same editors would include the observation that widower Jefferson then followed the French (Haitian) manumission practice to free all his children by a slave, and describe the 'affair' as a Virginian common law marriage by seven years' cohabitation. But they do not use their speculation on parentage in scholarly pursuit. That implies they are not sure of their parentage 'evidence' as grounds for the observations which would necessarily follow. Sensationalism is not scholarship, after all. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 10:14, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but "very easily" is not the same as "very far-fetched. So we are now to believe that Randolph came over only if Jefferson was at Monticello, and had nothing better to do than jump into bed with Sally Hemings every time over a period of more than ten years, but that he never ever sneaked in a visit when Jefferson was not at Monticello? Also note that the chance for a couple that actually tries to get pregnant are about 20-25% per month - and that's assuming they have sex often enough (or planned enough) to hit the women's fertile period. So chances for an occasional visitor to father 6 children are very low - whoever was the father would have to be in a long-term relationship with Sally Hemings. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert : Exactly. As I've maintained numerous times, any evidence that is used to "zero in" (revealing remark) on Jefferson can also be used to support several other paternal candidates. The similar appearance? Didn't Randolph, Jefferson's brother, resemble Thomas? Times of conception? Jefferson received family visitors every time he returned -- and besides, this was his home. It's not much of a coincidence that he was around when Sally was, who also lived there. Had this been some odd place and Hemings and Jefferson were both around during times of conception, that would be compelling evidence. There was also a lot made, spun, of the fact that Jefferson freed Hemings' children -- yet he didn't free Sally. As I said, much has been reevaluated since the 90s. We've gone over this time and again. The Jefferson page has remained stable for the past several months, for the first time in a while. At this point, if someone wants to further embark on the issue they should (do their homework) speak in terms of what they want to add and/or remove to/from the section, per reliable sources, not cherry picked. -- Gwillhickers 17:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The point about the lede is not whether TJ was in fact the father of Hemings's children, but that the consensus of modern historians is that he was. No one (either scholars or WP users) is saying the case is shut. Ellis, however, says, "How then to put it? To say that Jefferson's paternity of several Hemings children is proven 'beyond a reasonable doubt' sounds about right." There is no reason for me to begin to cite the many experts who concur.

Ellis further says, "No one had mentioned Randolph Jefferson as a possible alternative before the DNA study. He is being brought forward now because he fits the genetic profile. This belated claim strikes me as a kind of last stand for the most dedicated Jefferson loyalists." VaHist, do you have a source for "The homecoming of Thomas Jefferson would occasion the overnight stays of Randolph Jefferson"? Bay says, p. 411, "An infrequent visitor at Monticello, Randolph was never previously suspected as a possible partner for Hemings."

I suggest changing

Owing to DNA and other evidence, the consensus of most modern historians is that Jefferson fathered one or more of Hemings' children. A minority note the evidence also supports the possibility that other male members of the Jefferson family could have fathered her children.

to

Despite on-going controversy, DNA and other evidence has led to a consensus among most modern historians that Jefferson fathered one or more of Hemings' children.

Yopienso (talk) 16:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I like your second version for its trim elegance. Binksternet (talk) 16:56, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Absurd. The statement as it reads suggests that the matter has been factually concluded. Again, there are enough historians and professors on both sides of the fence to give fair representation to both views. Again, "most historians" is an unproven opinion from highly biased sources (esp TJF) and is not grounds to be skewing the presentation here. Again, the article already says "most historians". The section should remain neutral. -- Gwillhickers 17:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Historians are competent to determine what "most historian" think. Weight requires us to determine the relative acceptance of different views and it makes more sense to consult historians that to make the call ourselves. If you think the view that Jefferson was not the father should be included, then you need to establish the degree of acceptance it has in mainstream sources and we need to explain that in the article. TFD (talk) 17:44, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Typically you are speaking of historians as if they're all in lock-step on the same page. They're not. Far from it. Hence the controversy. If it were just a few obscure opposing voices howling in the wind there would be no controversy, would there? "Historians are competent"? Would that include those in the extensive list of prominent historians and professors below? -- Gwillhickers 18:13, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Lede statement for Hemings

The argument for "most historians" is academic, has never been proven and smacks of POV, made by one side arrogant enough to do so. Since we are only discussing opinion, about a theory far from proven, this topic should take a back seat to the established historical facts mentioned in the lede. Here is a statement that presents no POV and is intellectually honest.

Since the early 1800s there has been an ongoing controversy over whether Jefferson was the father of one or more children of Sally Hemings, a house slave at Monticello. However, DNA and other evidence has not proven the claims of either side of that controversy to this day.

Please leave opinions about unproven theory out of the lede. These are special details that are not afforded to any other topic in the lede. Mention of opinions, "most historians", etc should be covered in the section. -- Gwillhickers 17:23, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe this would work:

Since the early 1800s there has been an ongoing controversy over whether Jefferson was the father of one or more children of Sally Hemings, a house slave at Monticello. While DNA and other evidence have not definitively proven the claims of either side of that controversy, the consensus of most modern historians is that he was. Yopienso (talk) 02:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Awkward wording, especially the ending. I liked your previous suggestion: "Despite on-going controversy, DNA and other evidence has led to a consensus among most modern historians that Jefferson fathered one or more of Hemings' children." Binksternet (talk) 02:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I agree. Do you think this is better than what we have at the moment? Yopienso (talk) 03:26, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

alternate: There is an ongoing controversy among historians whether Jefferson fathered one or more of Hemings’ children, but their DNA has been scientifically linked to his family. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 13:48, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

There are two ways to do this in summary form, which we can support with sources, as WP:Lead would have us do, and this general article demands: 1) go with one of our longstanding iterations on "the consensus of most historians" or 2) don't bother to directly mention that there is misgiving from some minority viewpoint quarters, which is how Britannica deals with it ("Finally, in 1998, DNA samples were gathered from living descendants of Jefferson and Hemings. Tests revealed that Jefferson was almost certainly the father of some of Hemings's children." [2]) . Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:15, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I like this solution, but placed in the section addressing Sally Hemings, not in the lead. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:20, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

"Most historians"?

Below is a list of historians, professors and org's who clearly do not go along with the TJ paternity opinion.

Dr. W. M. Wallenborn, former research committee member at Thomas Jefferson Foundation
Herbert Barger, Jefferson Family Historian at Norwich University
Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society
Dr. Harvey C. Mansfield, Harvard University
Dr. David N. Mayer Professor of Law and History, Capital University
Dr. Robert F. Turner (Chairman), Professor, University of Virginia
Dr. Paul Rahe, Professor of History, University of Tulsa
Dr. Forrest McDonald, Distinguished Research Professor of History, Emeritus, University of Alabama
Dr. Alf J. Mapp, Jr., Eminent Scholar, Emeritus, Professor of History, Old Dominion University
Dr. Robert H. Ferrell, Distinguished Professor of History, Emeritus Indiana University
Dr. Lance Banning, Professor of History, University of Kentucky
Dr. Charles R. Kesler, Professor of Government, Claremont McKenna College, author of American History
Eliot Marshall, author/historian
Dr. Walter E. Williams, George Mason University
Dr. Jean Yarbrough, Professor of Political Science, Bowdoin College
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SCHOLARS: Scholars Challenge Jefferson-Hemings Allegations
J. Patrick Mullins, Ph.D, University of Kerntucky
Dr. Thomas Traut, University of North Carolina
Dr. James Ceaser, University of Virginia
Monticello Association, Url2
William G. Hyland, author of 'In Defense of Thomas Jefferson:The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal' and 'A Civil Action: Sally Hemings v. Thomas Jefferson'
Eyler Robert Coates, Sr., author of The Jefferson-Hemings Myth, Section Head (Supervisor), DBPH, Library of Congress (1974-78)
Dr. James P. Lucier, historian, journalist, foreign policy specialist, appointed as 'Scholar' in the Congressional Reading Room, Library of Congress,
served on the U.S. Senate staff for 25 years.

As I once said back in April 2012 this is not a 'challenge' to remove the statement 'most historians'. I just wanted to point out, that these people, given their prominent backgrounds, shed considerable doubt on the claim of "most historians" and any claims of "fringe" used to sweep other views under the rug. -- Gwillhickers 17:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC))

Why are we discussing this again? It was settled long ago and nothing has changed. Multiple reliable sources say there is a consensus among historians. The lede's purpose is to convey information in a summary fasion, and 'most historians conculsions are' is summary information. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Let's not mix issues. No one wants to remove "most historians" from the section, only that fair representation be given to both sides in the lede. You simply can't ignore the other side simply because an outfit like TJF has said "most historians", esp in the face to overwhelming evidence to the contrary. That claim, unproven, not even an explanation offered, does not cancel out the scores of differing opinions from the many scholars listed and elsewhere. None of the other topics in the lede are treated as the Hemings topic is, and they're all established historical facts. How do established facts get less coverage than an unsolved theory with a lot of opinion? Opinions are tangential details. Yes, nothing has changed, all we have is a couple of biased opinions, not "multiple", from highly biased sources like TJF, an outfit one of its own leading members, Dr, Wallenborn, is not in agreement with. Hemings should not be treated any differently than the other topics in the lede, none of which have quasi and unproven opinions attached to them. Keep the lede simple and neutral like all the other topics and keep the commentary and opinions in the section. Knowing how many other historians disagree with the likes of TJF I'm a bit disappointed at the effort to hide or obscure this reality. -- Gwillhickers 21:06, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

This is the same type of argument that is presented to support weight for fringe theories on 9/11, the Kennedy murder, climate change, evolution, free energy, and conspiracy theories of all kinds. Even if a number of historians hold a contrary view, they need to submit their findings to academic publications so that the academic community can assign weight to them. A brief check on some of the people listed shows that they seem to be right-wing. Harvey Mansfield is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, David N. Mayer is a "close associate" of the Atlas Society and his publisher is the Cato Institute, Paul A. Rahe is a fellow of the Hoover Institution and host at the National Review, and Forrest McDonald is a "paleo-conservative". TFD (talk) 21:20, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Except you keep forgetting that opinions that state Jefferson was not the father are not at all "fringe". Sorry, there are simply too many prominent historians and professors who have articulated their views for you to be making such silly assertions. And noting someone is a conservative doesn't come close to impeaching their credibility. We could say the TJF is a "leftist liberal" organization, some of them members of the NAACP. To impeach their credibility we would have to take the ball further than that, as Dr. Wallenborn did, and as you have not, here. -- Gwillhickers 21:26, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

False dichotomy. The "Thomas Jefferson Society" did not recruit its researchers based on ideology. More importantly their findings have been accepted by historians, which is how we determine their weight. The approach of the TJ Heritage Foundation is typical of how views held by a very small group of people are promoted. Recruit a small number of experts who are known to share one's views. Have them write a report which could never be accepted for publication in an academic journal. Promote it heavily through sympathetic partisan media (the "echo chamber"). Hope that mainstream media picks up on it and the average person believes that there is a controversy among scholars. And if anyone points out that there is not - then accuse the academic community of being dominated by liberals, big business, communists, or whomever one perceives the elitists to be. TFD (talk) 22:41, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

I think the org you are referring to in your first sentence is the Thomas Jefferson Foundation, not Society and you are only guessing if anyone has recruited or selected scholars in the manner you claim. Do you have a source that maintains the Scholars Commission said "liberals need not apply" or turned away anyone on the basis of ideology, religion, politics, race...anything? No, you don't. None of your speculations and wishful guessing changes the fact that these scholars are accomplished historians and professors from some very prestigious Universities, etc. As recruitment goes, when the TJF conducted their research they didn't allow any independent outsiders to participate, unlike the Independent Scholar's Commission. Sorry. As for the "liberal media, communists, etc", this is all conjecture. From what source are you making these claims -- the same one's who've jumped to the conclusion that Jefferson is the father? It's like you're referring to a source written by Yaser Arafat to write about the PLO-Israeli controversy. Not a very objective opinion. Pass. -- Gwillhickers 03:12, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

The following is from the TJHS website. The bias is starkly obvious.

Purposes of the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society

To further the honor and integrity of Thomas Jefferson, and to promote his vision and ideas and their application in our times and in the future.

To stand always in opposition to those who would seek to undermine the integrity of Thomas Jefferson.

Yopienso (talk) 03:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they have a bias against anyone trying to promote falsehoods based on racially charged speculations based on sketchy evidence that would never stand up in a court if law, at least not in the free world. If you want to see acute bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF, starting with TJF board member Julian Bond, President of the NAACP and Dianne Swann-Wright, Director of African American and "special programs" at TJF. -- Gwillhickers 04:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying that because these two people appear to be African-American, they have acute bias? TFD (talk) 15:40, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh my god it just gets worse. Gwillhickers, your inference is egregious and wrong that the TJF staffers must be biased because they are African American. This is a racist reaction pure and simple. Binksternet (talk) 16:26, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

A belated 'just for the record': I was claiming they were biased because of their involvements, not 'because' of their race. -- Gwillhickers 02:18, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

A quick check of your original comment confirms that you said nothing specific about involvements of Bond and Swann-Wright. Rather, you said "look at" these staffers. Binksternet (talk) 02:57, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Presentation of "most historians" claim

The idea of "most historians" is indeed a claim and it should be presented as a claim. The section should say,

it has been claimed by some historians who feel that Jefferson is the
father of Hemings' children that their view is in the majority.

We can't pass this off as a fact, not in the face of overwhelming evidence that says otherwise. There are plenty examples where commentary has been added to the effect that it reads, Historian Smith says 'this' and Professor Jones says 'that'. The "most historians" claim should be treated no differently. -- Gwillhickers 21:26, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

That is unsourced POV, there is no source that says that, and that's not how reliable sources present it:

• Smithsonian Museum
• :American President: A Reference Resource" from the University of Virginia
• United States National Park Service Jefferson Biography. currently offline
• Monticello, etc.

-- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:12, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

(Insert -edit conflict) Presenting a self serving opinion (i.e.most people agree with us!) as a fact is the worst sort of POV. There's nothing that says we can't say Some highly visible sources in the public eye have claimed their opinions are held by a majority of historians.' In any case, we need to keep opinionated commentary out of the lede regardless if you feel their opinion is fact for the simple reason that none of the other more important topics in the lede have such opinionated window dressing attached to them. Claims and commentary from selected sources belong in the section, if anywhere. -- Gwillhickers 03:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

This issue has all been discussed in tedious detail before. For whatever reasons you reject the sources others accept on this matter. Your reasons have not changed nor improved. Anyone who reviews the archives of this talk page will realize that you are attempting to revive a WP:Stick issue. So, please let's talk about something else, like the still repetitive slavery section - that's always calming :).Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:15, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Really, one might as well suggest that the Global warming page should state: "according to some scientists, their view that anthropogenic global warming is occurring is a consensus view". FurrySings (talk) 02:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Wow, Gwillhickers, just wow. Some historians claim their view is the majority? An amazing suggestion. Binksternet (talk) 02:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

This is indeed a controversy, so self serving views should be presented as such, esp since these are unqualified claims, not proven, made by orgs in the public eye under a lot of peer, political and financial pressure. -- Gwillhickers 03:16, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Most historians means numerically there are far more historians holding that view and it is reflected in peer-reviewed articles and books. On any subject there will always be people who do not accept the generally accepted view. But unless they are publishing articles in the academic press then it is insignificant to the topic. TFD (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Give us something more than opinions. Many of these historians teach at major Universities and have indeed published many books. I at least provided a list. Even TJF's own committee member saw the railroading and goading of opinion going on over there. Eugene Foster, the one who conducted DNA testing, along with H. Barger his history consultant didn't jump to 'conclusions' and were outraged at the way their findings were presented. What can you come up with except generic claims about the academic press? Think about it. You're going along with something only because you've apparently been led to believe it. Not sure why. Do you have a lot of peers looking over your shoulder? How do you actually know "most historians" have made such ridiculous 'conclusions'? I say 'ridiculous' because the evidence is far from conclusive as there are other candidates more likely than Jefferson. How could anyone not be open to all possibilities? Jefferson was and is singled out because he's a prize catch in the 'get America' crowd who haven't grown out of the 60's yet and for those who have a racial axe to grind. There are others. Politicians and public institutions go along because they're afraid they'll be labeled "racist" by pressure groups like the NAACP who are instrumental at this sort of thing and who now dictate policy at the TJF. That's how the propaganda game works, and if you don't think that has factored into this controversy then you're twice as naive as I thought. But never mind all of that. Show us a list that at least supports your notion that "most historians" (are idiots?) go along with the Jefferson paternity theory. The only published books that I know of that claim "most historians" are by Fawn Brodie and Paul Finkleman. Maybe John Ferling. Hardly representative of "most". -- Gwillhickers 16:36, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

AlanScottWalker gave you a list of four reputable sources that make the claim "most historians" believe in TJ's paternity. You sounded shockingly racist in your 04:25, 3 October 2013 post. Yopienso (talk) 16:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh please. If you think it's above beneath the NAACP to have any racial or political bias simply because of race then it would seem you're the one who harbors racist views, so stop with the high school spit ball approach and personal attacks please. I treat anyone, black, white, whatever, equally, and hold their feet to the same fire as anyone else, regardless of race, thank you. And don't think for a minute it can't be seen that you're dodging the bias issue with this cheap stunt. -- Gwillhickers 01:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, please apologize for addressing me in that tone. We simply cannot have constructive dialogs like that. Your earlier comment seems to discount Bond and Swann-Wright because they are African-American and/or because they are involved with African-American institutions. Yopienso (talk) 06:05, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Yopienso, please apologize for saying I sound "shockingly racist", as there was nothing I said that was remotely racist and saying so was just your way of not actually coming out and calling me a racist directly. Then please apologize for disrupting the discussion surrounding bias with such underhanded tactics. Then kindly review this page. -- Gwillhickers 18:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, you once had credibility at this page but you shot it away with today's racist observation, "If you want to see acute bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF...", the comment linking to photographs of African American staffers. Binksternet (talk) 18:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The NAACP and Swainwright are not above bias, and saying so is not at all racist. Your assertion that I should not say so because simply because they are African American and involved with racial politics and social issues is what is racist. If you have a personal issue with me you should take the matter up on my or your talk page. This sort of (not so) veiled personal attack has nothing to do with the improvement of the Jefferson page, so you need to take the soapbox elsewhere. All you are doing is attempting a personal end-run around the fact that you can't argue the points honestly. -- Gwillhickers 19:25, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

You based your accusation of bias on the appearance of these staffers as African Americans rather than on any of their actions, or on the published observations of others saying that they are biased. Your reference to their appearance is what is fundamentally a racist observation. You should stand down and let uninvolved folks address this article. Binksternet (talk) 20:18, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Making reference to their race and racially based politics is not racist. Many others have made the same observations. I could easily document the number of times the NAACP has been embroiled in their own racism, so please take the soapbox elsewhere and discuss the issues directly please, if that's possible. All you are doing is trying to upstage your failed arguments with personal attacks. -- Gwillhickers 00:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers! I most certainly will not apologize to you. I suggest you submit your comment to WP:DRN to find out if only the few of us here see racism in it.

I believe you edit in good faith, but it appears you do not understand what is meant by academic consensus. The academics could certainly be wrong! Consensus does shift! Next year we may have to change our statement. For now, most mainstream academics in the field of history believe TJ fathered at least one child with Hemings. Please see pp. 170-184 and note 20 on p. 194 of Thomas Jefferson: Reputation and Legacy.

Quotes: p. 170--"By the late 1990s there emerged a new scholarly consensus, which accepted that a sexual relationship between Jefferson and Hemings was probable." p. 171--"the new consensus"; p. 184--"That, by 2001, the primary 'defense' of Jefferson was maintained by a fringe group espousing reactionary politcs and employing hysterical rhetoric is testimony to how quickly the historiographical consensus regarding the Jefferson-Hemings question shifted in 1997-8." Yopienso (talk) 20:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

"Hysterical rhetoric" says it all. Binksternet (talk) 20:54, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Their views were articulated well, and the fact that no one here has squared off with any of the points made more than suggests that the only "hysteria" here comes from the one's pointing a finger as is evidenced by your personal attacks and your repeated failure to address issues and points directly. -- Gwillhickers 00:59, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I know that what "most historians" have concluded because a reliable source says so. I also know that Jefferson was an American president because sources also say that. Can you provide any sources that say the JHFTJHS's views have entered mainstream publications? TFD (talk) 16:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

You know it's so because a reliable source says so? That's really rich. Several of the books listed are used as RS's on the Jefferson page. Do you believe them too? Do you have a list of publishers that are on the "mainstream list" and ones that are not? And if such a list even exists, tell us, who decides which publishers belong and which do not. The 'God of Published Works'? Your argument is not even academic. This is just too easy. All you are trying to do is sweep other views under the rug by attaching labels like "fringe" and claiming they are not mainstream because of an obvious inability to confront any topics raised directly. Easy to see. -- Gwillhickers 01:29, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Are you addressing me or GWillickers? Do you mean TJF or TJHS? Yopienso (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. I was addressing Gwhillickers and referring to the TJHS. TFD (talk) 20:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

No problem at all; I was just wondering. :-) Yopienso (talk) 06:07, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

ASW, there are indeed sources that make the claim about "most historians" as you've pointed out and I never said there were none that did. As such we get to say this on the page, as we have already, but as I maintained, we should at least state that this is a claim, not an established fact, as no one has established it, again, not even qualified with an explanation, let alone factual proof. It is a claim made with no footnotes or reference to any bibliography on the online pages these claims are made. It should be treated like any other commentary that has even been made on the Jefferson page. e.g. Finkelman says...etc. Also, no other topic in the lede is treated with opinionated commentary, so any commentary there needs to go. I believe that is fair and objective given the controversy and biases associated with this topic. -- Gwillhickers 01:59, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

There are several reliable sources making that statement. Unless you find a significant reliable source stating that there is no consensus, we describe the consensus like the sources do. Also see WP:NPOV, WP:CLAIM. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:52, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

There is no policy that says we can't say a particular source has claimed or asserted an opinion. Commentary has been introduced to this page time and again in similar manner. Btw, Paul Finkleman once referred to Jefferson as a "monster". Are you saying we can make this statement? "Jefferson is a monster." Nonsense. If a source only makes a claim regarding a controversial topic, without qualification, explanation, let alone proof, we need to make clear to the readers that the assertion is indeed a claim, which is the truth. -- Gwillhickers 18:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The policy which has just been pointed out to you is WP:NPOV. Considering this article is about Jefferson, who is notable for many things far more important, a fringe dissenting opinion from mainstream historiography deserves little if any mention. TFD (talk) 19:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes NPOV means giving both views equal representation. At this point, after all that has been pointed out, your line is beginning to sounds like a chant. "Fringe" only tells us you have no idea of who's out there. The dissent comes from major players in the controversy along with a long line of established historians and professors. Got it this time? -- Gwillhickers 00:39, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

No it does not. It means giving every view the same representation as it receives in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The policy is found at WP:WEIGHT. 03:35, 5 October 2013 (UTC) Yopienso (talk) 03:36, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

And people like Dr. Foster, Dr. Wallenborn, Barger and all the prominent historians and professors mentioned give the other side of the controversy plenty of weight. That's why it's a controversy. Why is that so difficult for you to accept? -- Gwillhickers 05:09, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Which means that among the thousands of historians in the U.S., a handful believe that Jefferson was not the father and they have been unwilling or unable to publish their views in the academic press and have received nil acceptance of them. The same is true with virtually any fringe theory you care to name. Ergo, any controversy exists outside the mainstream and deserves little or no mention here, per policy. TFD (talk) 05:30, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Gwillhickers, you seem to have slipped back one level. We are not talking about Jefferson and Hemings sex live, we are talking about the current historical discourse. Have any of competent historians among them (and that includes neither Barger nor Hyland) claimed that there is no consensus against their position? Have they done so in a reliable publication so that we should give weight to it? Or is it your own original research that tells you "if there are so many opposed, there can be no consensus"? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 06:49, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Commentary in the lede

Either we present a balanced commentary in the lede or we should remove all commentary, esp since no other topics are treated with commentary. Simply because some high visibility websites have claimed "most historians" does not mean there is no appreciable number of others who don't agree. If there was not an appreciable number and they were all fly by night sources, there would be no controversy. There is one and it needs to be presented fairly. These attempts to skew and hide this reality are beneath anyone who tries to author a history article, which should be objective, balanced and neutral. Also, if there is no controversy, then the topic needs to be removed from the lede completely, as that was the reason for its inclusion when it was first debated back in 2011. -- Gwillhickers 19:01, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The Hemings material is significant to the historiography of Jefferson, no matter whether we think the question is now settled or whether it is still open to debate. As such, the Hemings note must stay in the lead section. Binksternet (talk) 19:22, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The Hemings issue started with a rumor and remains far from proven to this day, regardless of opinion, much of it racially and politically motivated. In order for it to be a controversy there has to be an appreciable number of people who haven't jumped to conclusions over evidence that clearly points to other paternal candidates as well. If the topic is indeed a controversy, then it needs to be presented fairly and objectively. If it is not a controversy, it is not significant to the historiography of Jefferson any more than other rumors with no factual and conclusive proof and doesn't belong in the lede, as this was the justification for having it there in the first place. Is it a controversy or not? Please don't play musical chairs with the issue. -- Gwillhickers 19:42, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I have seen no evidence that the findings are "racially and politically motivated" - can you provide any evidence for this in mainstream sources? TFD (talk) 19:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Evidently there's much you haven't seen. As I said, this talk page is not the place to be educating the uninfomred, but you have insisted:

• William G. Hyland, Jr. speaks of such bias in his book In Defense of Thomas Jefferson: The Sally Hemings Sex Scandal pp.22, 119, 166, 280, published by the award winning Macmillan press, Fifth Ave New York, a major and long established publisher.
• David N. Mayer's books are published by the University of Virginia. His essay Sally Hemings Myth and the Politicization of American History, is featured in Dr. Robert F. Turner's book, published by the North Carolina Academic Press. (Turner is a Professor at University of Virginia.)
• Turner's also writes about how DNA evidence was handled and presented in an editorial in the Wall Street Journal: The Myth of Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings
• Dr, Wallenborn, former TJF committee member himself accused TJF of political bias.
• Dr Foster and his historical consultant Herbert Barger have accused the TJF and others of bias noting that some members like Swann-Wright were African American and heavily involved with racial issues, which is a fair observation. Racial motives are constantly considered in courts of law and other places -- but not here??
• The University of Virgina Magazine has an excellent article of the various biases that have played a central role in the controversy.
• Francis D. Cogliano's book Thomas Jefferson: Reputation and Legacy, p.124 talks about how the civil rights movement pressured Montecello into making slavery the central theme in the tour of TJF Montecello.

Dr. Foster, H. Barger, Dr. Wallenborn along with the many other prominent historians and professors deserve fair representation in the lede and in the section. They are not an inconsequential, or a "fringe" group by any means, esp since Foster, Barger, Wallenborn and others were at the center of the controversy from the time DNA evidence was misrepresented. Their accounts are represented in the mainstream which is largely why the issue is controversial. If their accounts were only published by some fly by night news rag, etc, there would be no national controversy among historians and professors.

Since this has been well discussed now and there are more than enough reliable sources, we also need to mention that bias has played a major role among those who have misrepresented the evidence from the start and who have "concluded" that Jefferson was not only the father of one, but all of Hemings' children. We also have more than enough sources to mention in the lede that there are other points of view among a good number of historians. This is not Stalinist Russia guys. We need to make the article fair, balanced and objective. The website sources that say "most historians" allows us to say that, but that's it. It is not grounds to be ignoring the many other accounts as something that is inconsequential. If you maintain all of these people, Dr. Foster, Dr. Wallenberg, Barger, professors at Harvard, Virginia, et al, are of no consequence, which is absurd, then there is no controversy and we remove it from the lede. Btw, there is indeed a controversy, it should have mention, fair mention, in the lede and my advice to you would be to educate yourself on matters before you take part in a debate you evidently know little about. This debate is getting old, has been attempted before several times and has failed each time for the same reasons outlined now. Past participates that share these views are not present at this particular time no doubt because they're tired of repeating the same points over and again. -- Gwillhickers 00:28, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Your first source is a Google book search of Hyland's book for the word "bias." Page 22, which is your first reference, says, "What was their bias or...." It appears to be discussing the DNA testing. Also, I asked for evidence in "mainstream sources". Find an article in a history journal that supports your views. TFD (talk) 01:54, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

GWillhickers, the book to which you refer in your last bullet point is the same one I quoted from in small print above. Your hurried search caused you to utterly miss Cogliano's main point. I urge all editors to read pp. 123-124, from which I quote:

When, in 1998, DNA testing confirmed that Jefferson was the likely father of at least one child by one of his slaves, Sally Hemings, this development too was incorporated into the house tour. [. . .] Having conceived Monticello as a patriotic shrine to Jefferson . . . the Foundation neglected or ignored slavery during its early years. Eventually, in response to the growing literature on Jefferson's relationship to slavery . . . the Foundation began to consider slavery as an aspect of Jefferson's legacy. As an inevitable consequence of such an approach, the heroic image of Jefferson as Apostle of Freedom . . . was impossible to sustain. Yopienso (talk) 03:49, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The text indeed says that the Civil Rights movement fueled in part their decision to make slavery the central theme at Montiecllo. It is Jefferon's home and legacy. How is it that slavery takes a front seat to almost everything? -- Gwillhickers 05:50, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

And it says the TJF acted "in response to the growing literature on Jefferson's relationship to slavery - itself a product of the broader study of slavery in the United States fuelled in part by the Civil Rights movement", not that "the civil rights movement pressured Montecello into making slavery the central theme in the tour of TJF Montecello." None of which supports the claim that their findings on paternity were "racially and politically motivated." TFD (talk) 04:54, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The same feelings about slavery directly connect to Hemings who was also a slave, much of the sentiment politically and often racially motivated. Both slavery and Hemings were viewed through the same lens by many if not all the staffers at TJF and elsewhere. It has been easily demonstrated that there is a wide body of descent among people, many directly involved in the controversy along with many prominent historians and professors at major universities across the country. The evidence still supports other possible and viable candidates while there are plenty of important people who have published works in enough mainstream publications to warrant better representation of both sides of this controversy. The attempt to write it all off as inconsequential remains ludicrous and smacks of pushing a POV regarding a controversial topic. There is not one piece of evidence, DNA, looks of children, times of conception, that points to Jefferson any more than it does Randolph Jefferson and others. If so, spare us the 'fringe' rhetoric and name one. Most of the weight should be placed on the facts, not the opinions. The bulk of anything said in the lede and the section should be devoted to facts, with brief mention of the opinions out there on both sides. We can still say "most historians", but that is all you can say. It's not a license to stick your head in the sand and ignore and misrepresent everything else. -- Gwillhickers 05:50, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not the place to discuss evidence and methodology. The fact is that historians have accepted the TJF's findings and ignored your group's findings. It could be that you are right and the TJF is wrong, but it does not matter, because policy tells us to follow NPOV. If you want equal weight for fringe theories, then get Wikipedia to change that policy. TFD (talk) 07:10, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

You have cited no policy that says we can't coverage both sides of a controversy, and your claims about "fringe" remain refuted. The fact remains that historians are widely divided as is easily demonstrated, that many of them are from prominent universities and that much of their work is published by mainstream publications, also demonstrated. Once again, people like Dr, Eugene Foster who did the DNA experiments, Herbert Barger, his history consultant, Dr. Wallenborne who exposed the TJF research committee, all central figures in the controversy, are also in the group who have not taken inconclusive evidence and have jumped to such singular conclusions. You've tried to brush off all of these people as "fringe", but one look at the number of people, their backgrounds, their involvements and their publishers and that claim falls flat on its face. When you say this is not the place to discuss evidence, it only shows us that you have to stay away from the facts as far as possible to sell your opinionated and unproven claims. ASW has presented four websites that claim "most historians" and though I challenge that idea I have never said we have to remove this from the page. This is yet another distinction that seems to escape you. My only position is that we need to say something more about the other views as there are enough of them to justify doing so. Naturally you object because as soon as the other side has fair representation much of the weight to arguments shifts to the other side. -- Gwillhickers 16:26, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

The policy is "neutrality". I have never called anyone fringe. People are not fringe, ideas are. What makes ideas fringe is not that they are inaccurate, biased, poorly reasoned, not supported by facts, or that their authors are unqualified - the opposite might be true. Lots of ideas that are now generally accepted were considered fringe when they were first advocated, beginning with Ptolemy's theory that the Earth is round. Ideas are fringe when they do not attain acceptance in the mainstream, in this case, in academic writing. TFD (talk) 17:20, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

A "fringe" idea is highly unusual, weird even, with few or no facts to support it. An idea isn't fringe simply because it's not held by "most historians", whatever that amount is supposed to be. As I've said, it's an unproven mostly partisan claim. In any case, there are too many historians, professors and people central to the controversy who don't follow along to be writing off their views as fringe. The reason the Hemings topic is a controversy is because there is great opposition to the conclusions jumped to. If the opposing views were just held by a few fly-by-night websites or books there would be no controversy to speak of. As you know, there is one to speak of, which is why the topic is allowed in the lede. The opposing views have also been published in many mainstream publications as I've also pointed out. -- Gwillhickers 18:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guideline WP:FRINGE defines a "fringe theory" defines them "in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field." Fringe theatre is theater outside the mainsteam, fringe events at party conferences address minority issues,[3] etc. In this case the dissenting view has received little or not notice in the mainstream, and "neutrality", which is a policy, requires that we provide it with the same prominence. If you dislike the term, then just say outside or ignored by the mainstream. Incidentally, it is not up to us to evaluate a theory based on whether there are facts to support it. That is the role of secondary sources. And of course mainstream can ideas, such as DNA, can be weird. TFD (talk) 20:56, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Commentary in the lede2

You keep ignoring several items. One, that opposing views are indeed prominent and covered in mainstream secondary sources as was pointed out several times now, and two, WP policy says, Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints. The opposing views are indeed significant and is why there is a controversy. There is also a quote from Jimbo Wales in that same section which says If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents. (emphasis added) This was done, quite easily. The opposing views are indeed held by a significant minority, as is evidenced by numerous and established historians and professors from numerous major universities and people central to the controversy, like Dr. Eugene Foster, etc. Commentary should be limited to the section and differing views be given fair representation. Such details do not belong in the lede and not be given the same weight as the established historical facts, like the DOI, Louisiana Purchase and slavery. -- Gwillhickers 23:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you understand what "neutral" is; you posted that racist bit about "to see acute bias all you have to do is look at some of the key staff members at the TJF", pointing to the photos of black staffers. That dropped your neutrality stock to nil. Binksternet (talk) 00:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Please don't try to 'ace' the discussion with such shallow rant. You're trying to take 2 + 2 and come up with 100. I would have said the same thing about anyone involved in such a capacity, regardless of race. My referral was quite warranted. IMO, most of the NAACP, esp Julian Bond, who has a long history of divisive rhetoric and racist slurs, are stark racists and depend on 'individuals' such as yourself to hound those who may hold their feet to the same fire as they would anyone else. Please stop with your not so veiled personal attacks and use the talk page for its intended purpose. Got any thoughts on WP policy and the other finer points of the discussion? Feed that melody into your mixer and see what you can come up with. A.H. -- Gwillhickers 02:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Your racist remark is applicable because you are here arguing a finer point about how race relations are to be presented in this biography, especially with regard to slave/master relations with all the attendant need for sensitivity. We all know Wikipedia policy but sometimes there are judgement calls, and this is one of them. I don't think your judgement can be accepted here regarding race matters. Binksternet (talk) 02:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I feel the same about your assessment, given your shallow jump to conclusions. I made reference to black staffers with racial bias, as was warranted given Julian Bond's history, remarks, etc. This is not (braawk!) "racist", or do you feel they are above such scrutiny because they are black and I'm not? Read: Conditioned response. Please keep the dialog focused on WP policy and how we're supposed to present these issues to the readers. -- Gwillhickers 02:58, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You pointed to what Julian Bond looked like, not any of his history, remarks or deeds. Just his appearance—inferring very clearly that a black staffer must be biased. It is quite different to refer to deeds and say that someone has demonstrated bias, which is what I am doing now. I have no idea what you look like; I just know what you wrote. Binksternet (talk) 03:06, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Insert : Bink, I understand your point, but I did mention that he was a member of the NAACP -- and while what they stand for on the surface is commendable (equal rights, etc) too many of their members are no different than some extremist who wraps himself with the flag as a justification to do and say what he pleases. -- Gwillhickers 17:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

• Folks, apropos the lead, historiographic footnotes do not belong there.
• The issue is raised, should the phrase "consensus of modern historians" be applied in the lead. I would say no. Even were it so, it belongs in the section discussing the Sally Hemings affair/marriage.
• Further, it seems from the discussion above that the phrase at issue should be amended to the "consensus of [Foundation A] is [A], the consensus of [Institute B]" is [B]." and that observation be placed in a footnote. WP should be a place of greater information. This level of scholarly back-and-forth is not relevant to a narrative on Jefferson's life for the general reader. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. WP isn't interested in the consensus of institutions A, B, and C, but in the overall consensus of the academy--the leading scholars of history. They are not necessarily correct, but they are the arbiters of mainstream thought. Francis D. Cogliano presents an excellent historiography on the Jefferson-Hemings controversy on pp. 170-198 of Thomas Jefferson: Reputation and Legacy. The online format has two large gaps; any person in the U.S. can readily find the book at their local library or ask there for an inter-library loan. A careful reading of Chap.6 of that book should end this debate.

Half of p. 183 is given to David N. Mayer's defense of TJ, summed up by a short quote from John Works: "Defending Thomas Jefferson, therefore, has come to mean defending what America means, and we feel compelled to rise to that defense." Cogliano immediately follows with, "Among scholars, this defense has been ineffective." Both Mayer and Works are members of the TJHS, which Cogliano tells about on pp. 180-183. Wrt their report, he writes on p. 181 that "it shows that the work of the TJHS, while cloaked in scholarly objectivity, promotes an explicit political agenda." Cogliano concludes on p. 191,"Now that most scholars accept the Jefferson-Hemings relationship as a fact it will be necessary to re-evaluate Thomas Jefferson's life and character . . ." [emphasis added]

This is who Cogliano is. Yopienso (talk) 11:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree with TVH, the lede should be a summary of Jefferson's life and any topic should not get treated any differently than all the other topics there. Opinionated commentary belongs in the sections and since there is a significant minority of descending opinion regarding the Jefferson paternity theory from notable people in many mainstream sources their views should get fair representation. The attempts to obscure and hide these things from the readers are disappointing. -- Gwillhickers 17:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Yopienso, Cogliano indeed mentions that "most" scholars accept ...as a fact. 'As' a fact. The idea of Jefferson's paternity is still a theory and remains far from proven. As such, we need to be clear about that and not deceive the readers. You should be looking for legitimate ways, per WP policy, to do that, because that's the truth. -- Gwillhickers 17:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The article currently reads, "These indicators have led to a consensus among most modern historians that Jefferson fathered one or more of Hemings' children. That seems to address your concern that we do not present it as a fact, and may even understate the degree of acceptance. TFD (talk) 17:58, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

In all likelihood it may even overstate that degree given the many prominent historians, professors and other notable people (tip of the iceberg) who haven't jumped to such a narrow conclusion. In any case, giving commentary in the lede for this topic is giving it special consideration and weight over all the other established facts presented there and needs to be confined to the section.-- Gwillhickers 18:34, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide any academic paper that any of these professors have published? There are of course always experts who doubt orthodoxy, but unless they publish and their views obtain recognition it is of no relevance. TFD (talk) 19:18, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide any academic paper published from anyone in the TJF or any other web-cite sources that has claimed "most historians", etc? The Smithsonian, PBS, etc? Heck, these orgs have simply made the claim and we don't even know anything about most of the individuals there 'standing behind the curtain', pulling the ropes, so let's not start inventing requirements that WP policy has not even stipulated regarding reliable sources. -- Gwillhickers 02:12, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Yopiensko just provided you with a book published by the University of Virginia Press. TFD (talk) 04:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, the members of the TJHS are all (maybe most?) recognized scholars and more renowned than Cogliano. All or most have published, some prolifically. Not all are TJ specialists. Almost all are old white men; some are dead. There's an old white woman and an old black man among them, and one or two middle-aged men. That's the problem: they are from the passing generation, and no longer represent the mainstream, but have become reactionaries. This happens every generation or so as the trends in historiography swing lke a pendulum. For better or for worse, right now the trend is not to write hagiographies, but to paint feet of clay. Yopienso (talk) 05:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)