Talk:Melody (Japanese singer)

Vegan?

Does anyone have a reliable source for melody. being vegan? Thanks! --217.51.193.3 03:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Nobody...? --217.51.198.198 00:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Where does it say that she's a vegan? I can't find it being mentioned in the Biography section. --Mondorescue (talk) 02:40, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Simple as that over the rainbow 02.JPG

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Birth name?

The infobox says that Melody's birth name is Miyuki Melody Ishikawa. Isn't Ishikawa her husband's surname that she took when they got married? Can this be called a "birth name"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.146.13.162 (talk) 09:36, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Good point. A taken name is definitely not a birth name, I'll change that now. Eugeniu Bmsg 00:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

The names appear to be similar. Miyavi's name is "Ishihara". Ishikawa may well be melody.'s actual maiden name, though I can't find a source to confirm this. I'm keeping her real name as "Ishikawa" on the Dutch version of this page.CarelessTantrum (talk) 09:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved to Melody Miyuki Ishikawa. Consensus was clearly against the old title so a move was called for. The selected target seems to have had the most support. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:09, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

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Melody. (Japanese singer) → melody. – Already a redirect for her, and the period is a simple way to disambiguate. relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 18:00, 28 December 2011 (UTC) Xfansd (talk) 17:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose per MOS:TM. Should be Melody (Japanese singer). Powers ^T 19:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• Move to Melody Miyuki Ishikawa. This form of her name is from her Facebook fan page. Not exactly RS, but the best I could find. We use the full name if it is "fairly often used," according to WP:NCP. Kauffner (talk) 04:28, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Ordinarily I might agree with LtPowers. However, the article curently has her as Melody. (Japanese singer) with the period. For a comparison, Yahoo redirects to Yahoo!, and Jeopardy to Jeopardy!. To me those are strong precedents for melody. with the period. Alden Loveshade (talk) 05:35, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

What about Pink (singer) (not P!nk) or Kesha (not Ke$ha)? Many Japanese singers use all-caps on their album labels, but nonetheless get conventional capitalization on Wiki. With so many article titles on Wiki, you can go anywhere you like with these kinds of analogies. Kauffner (talk) 13:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

While this isn't an AfD, the logic behind this section applies here as well. --The Evil IP address (talk) 20:49, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Move to Melody Miyuki Ishikawa. The lower case M and the period should not be used in a page title. Paved with good intentions (talk) 00:13, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

• Move to Melody Miyuki Ishikawa. "melody" should either be deleted as miscapitalised or redirected to Melody. One singer cannot be allowed to appropriate a common English word. Peterkingiron (talk) 23:31, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. The full stop is certainly not sufficient to make the topic obvious. The proposed title would be seriously misleading. It's good as it is; a move to the full name would be acceptable also. Noetica^Tea? 21:50, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support LtPowers' move, I agree that the nom's proposal would be neat, but the period is a stylisation and should be removed. --The Evil IP address (talk) 20:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose the proposal and the current title per MOS:TM. Periods/fullstops can be highly confusing if used incorrectly. Wikipedia isn't a fan site or even a music encyclopedia (cf. Allmusic). As a general reference, it should preserve general rules of language as much as possible to aid readers who are not familiar with topics. I support either Melody (Japanese singer) or Melody Miyuki Ishikawa, whichever other users like better. —  AjaxSmack  03:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move? 2

• Full name cannot be reliably sourced and therefore violates WP:BLP. —Ryulong (琉竜) 12:19, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
• See next section above. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 15:17, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
• Move to Melody (Japanese singer) which is her most notable occupation and does not have the stylization issues. Can also include Melody Ishihara, which is her married name and what she is currently using for official Twitter and Myspace interactions. -AngusWOOF (talk) 19:23, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

  The use of "Melody." is fine. This is a personal (if stage) name and they are not subject to WP:MOSTM. After all, see will.i.am, kd lang, bell hooks, etc. It is also the name she is most known as. But if she now refers to herself as "Melody Ishihara" then that can be included, but "Miyuki Ishikawa" definitely does not appear in any reliable sources, just as much as the full names of her children which was also previously on the page.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:29, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose the name requested was rejected in 2011, at the time of my comment, the article is residing at Melody. (Japanese singer) ; so this should move to Melody (Japanese singer) per MOS:FULLSTOP or Melody Ishihara per her myspace and twitter accounts. Amazon.jp does not use the fullstop either. -- 76.65.131.217 (talk) 22:24, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

  WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. And personal names are not subject to much of the manual of style requirements, and we have reliable sources that almost exclusively refer to her in English as "melody." with the fullstop, including her official profile which AngusWOOF posted below. This is more than enough to show that even if WP:MOSTM applied we are currently violating it, as it's not like "P!nk" or "Ke$ha" where "Pink" and "Kesha" are used more prevalently.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:31, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  linking to WP:CCC means nothing unless you actually achieve a new consensus, which doesn't seem to be happening from the activity of this current survey. And from the responses of various editors here, MOS:FULLSTOP use the fullstop only on sentence terminals seems to be the MOS they prefer. -- 76.65.131.217 (talk) 15:35, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  The only thing that's happening here is that "Melody." is not a suitable title, but "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" was even worse as it violated WP:BLP. So long as the page is not at that title, again, I am fine with the outcome here.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

• This fullstop is a stylization which may be fine in advertisements about her but in text is a confusing breach of punctuation rules. Her name, de-stylized, is Melody, and as such needs a disambiguater. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:38, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  Tokyohive exclusively refers to her as "melody." though.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:59, 12 October 2013 (UTC)m

• Like AngusWOOF and the IP, I support Melody Ishikawa Melody Ishihara. Thousands of sites refer to this subject as “Melody Miyuki Ishikawa,” including her IMBD bio and the credits for a U.S. show she appeared on. She uses "Melody Ishikawa" "Melody Ishihara” on Twitter and MySpace. A conventional first-name-last-name format and typography looks more encyclopedic, assuming this can be justified based on real-world usage. The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 07:44, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  "Melody Ishikawa" cannot be reliably sourced. The prevalence of "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" on the internet is a result of her fans not caring that her name is not public, particularly on IMDB which is a user created website (LucyWho is questionable). Also, on Twitter and Myspace her name is her married name "Melody Ishihara", which is not the name she used professionally. I would support "Melody (Japanese singer)" (without the fullstop) as the page title, but there is still no reason to institute a double standard where we have "will.i.am" as a suitable article title. The only reason "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" was even used was because of an unofficial Facebook fanpage from two years ago when the rules on Facebook were more lax. "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" violates WP:BLP as it cannot be reliably sourced as being her full name in any sense of the word. "Ishihara" as her married name is only vaguely usable, but it wasn't the name she was best known as.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:59, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  MOS:JAPAN says, "Use the form personally or professionally used by the person (such as on their official website or official social media profile)." See? We can use Twitter and MySpace as sources. (BTW, I don't care much for this guideline, despite its usefulness in this situation.) Her full name was never a secret, so it is not like there is a privacy issue. BLP is about material, "challenged or likely to be challenged." Using it to put odd punctuation in a title is just so much Wikilawyering. The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 08:55, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  As a musical artist she was known as "melody." for much longer though, and I don't see any reliable sources that say her birth name was ever "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" so it's a BLP to say that this is the truth when there are no sources to back it up. There are also many musical artists in Japan known solely as their stagenames who have their birth names an apparent "open secret" (Yui (singer), Misia, Becky (television personality), etc.) but we cannot report on this information because there are no reliable sources that verify it, particularly the Japanese way of writing for the three I listed (their names are allegedly reported elsewhere but in English).—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:33, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  It seems to me that the period is obviously not going to happen. So you should be thinking whether you prefer her married name or the parenthetical as a disambiguator. The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 13:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  I don't see why it shouldn't. Married name isn't necessary when it's not what's in reliable sources. "melody" (lower case) is in reliable sources, and because there are other musicians known as "Melody" that means a parenthetical is fine, although the current title suffices as well.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:32, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  The Toy's Factory Japanese version lists Melody as her real name along with (メロディ). It does not specify her surname, although it has other information have publically shown her birthdate (some with month year and others with month day, year) and her birthplace (Hawaii). The rest of her profile article uses "melody." when referring to her. -AngusWOOF (talk) 18:27, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - move to Melody (Japanese singer) as Melody (Belgian singer), Melody (Spanish singer). In ictu oculi (talk) 15:55, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
• Move to Melody Ishihara or Melody (Japanese singer): The "." (and lowercasing) affectation doesn't need to be copied here (at least unless it is nearly universally applied in many reliable sources), and is a poor disambiguator by itself. We should generally try to use non-stylized names. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:52, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  Why should "melody" be forbidden when will.i.am and kd lang get this treatment?—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:30, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  I think that should depend on how universally the stylization is used in reliable sources. Wikipedia generally tries not to use strange stylizations when they can be avoided, although exceptions exist if there seems to be no way to avoid it based on reliable sources. A directly comparable counter-example is Fun (band), which uses the styling "fun." (with the "." and lowercase). —BarrelProof (talk) 19:48, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  Fun., however, is a band, and apparently band names count as trademarks. Mrs. Ishihara here is a person like will.i.am and k.d. lang and bell hooks, so her name is not subject to MOS:TM's rules and regulations.—Ryulong (琉竜) 20:06, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  I don't think it really matters whether it's a band or an artist, as far as Wikipedia guidelines are concerned – MOS:TM applies regardless, and it does not matter whether we're talking about an official registered trademark or not. It applies to all "words and short phrases used by organizations and individuals to identify themselves and their products and services" (italics added for emphasis). Another counter-example is E. E. Cummings – an individual author who primarily published using the stylization "e. e. cummings". Incidentally, I suggest that you try to take a step back in this discussion and try not to feel like you need to respond to every comment made by anyone else. Personally, I'm going to try to step away for a while, as I think I have adequately expressed my current thinking on the subject. —BarrelProof (talk) 20:48, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

  It does matter, otherwise will.i.am and k.d. lang would not be at the titles they are now. This is a constant issue with Japanese artists on Wikipedia and for the first time I have English language reliable sources that support a particular form so there is no reason "melody." should not be allowed (also E. E. Cummings#Name and capitalization disproves your point).—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:26, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

This source plainly says "[she] writes her name with a lower case m and a period". Frankly, the current page is better than having "Melody Ishihara" or "Melody (Japanese singer)". Just so long as "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" is never used again is fine.—Ryulong (琉竜) 18:42, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

• The only RS in this case is a couple of Tokyo entertainment publications with odd style rules. I find it unlikely she would get a period in her name if she was ever mentioned in something more mainstream like AP, The New York Times, or even Japan Times. My first choice is her married name. But I'd rather a period than "(Japanese singer)". The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 08:40, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

  You have to take what you get.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:25, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Actually we don't, if there are no reliable sources in English we can follow normal English MOS. メロディー likes to use "melody." in English languages materials in Japan, everyone gets that, but what the Viking says is absolutely correct; if メロディー ever got into the New York Times she'd be plain "Melody". Japanese Fashion Designer and Former Singer “Melody” Thinks 2NE1 is “Hot” 2011. We have enough eyesores on en.wp already without this one. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:02, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I've shown that there are plenty of reliable sources that use "melody." to refer to Mrs. Ishihara's stage name in an English setting, including one that plainly states "it is written with a lower case M and a period". You just can't throw them all out just because "it's an eyesore" and you don't like how this name is being formatted. But anything is better than using what was alleged to be her legal maiden name.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:26, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Well I half sympathize but the reality is that if we had a Google Books source we wouldn't be having this RM. The extremely ugly and noisy will.i.am and kd lang get this treatment not because they aren't unencyclopaedic eyesores but because Google Books discuss them with these stylisms. メロディー just isn't well known enough in English sources to disrupt en.wp's titles. In my view, others will take different views. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:06, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Although looking up I see 4 out of 4 for Melody (Japanese singer). In ictu oculi (talk) 11:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Mrs. Ishihara's stage name is "melody." not "メロディー", so you can stop referring to her as such. And whether or not you like or dislike how western musical artists have their names stylized should not have any bearing on how this page should be formatted. Mrs. Ishihara is known as "melody." in all of the sources provided, except for that "Korea.com" one, which I doubt the reliability of. Just so long as "Melody Miyuki Ishikawa" is forbidden from being used again, I will be fine.—Ryulong (琉竜) 11:12, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

@Ryulong: I suggest to try to exercise some restraint in further discussion of this. By my count, you have posted as many remarks in this discussion as everyone else combined (approximately 15 remarks each). Please read WP:BLUDGEON. It suggests that there may be a problem when "your comments take up 50% of the text" or "the person replies to every single '!vote' or comment, arguing against that particular person's point of view". I think you've met those criteria. I previously suggested that you "try to take a step back in this discussion and try not to feel like you need to respond to every comment made by anyone else", and I now repeat that suggestion. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:38, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• There seems to be some confusion regarding trademarks. A trademark is name or logo that identifies the origin of a product.[1] So it can certainly be the name of an individual or band and still be a trademark. If a customer looks at an album cover, associates the name “melody.” with a certain style of performance, and then buys a product on that basis, that’s a trademark. From Wikipedia’s point of view, the problem with trademarks is that they often include non-standard typography, in this case a period, that are added to make a name standout for promotional reasons. The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 07:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

  I still do not see a reason to treat her name any different than those of non-Japanese artists who also have non-standard typography. It is a double standard to say that because she is from Japan her name should not be parsed the way it does in reliable sources.—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:40, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

English bio profile

Toy's Factory had an English website which profiled melody. in the web archives from 2007: http://web.archive.org/web/20090821140437/http://www.toysfactory.co.jp/english/artist/melody.html

Might be useful in filling out some old information. -AngusWOOF (talk) 21:43, 11 October 2013(UTC)

Birth name

I‘d like to re-add “Melody Miyuki Ishikawa” as the subject’s birth name and source it to Lucy Who, which appears to be RS, or is at least professionally edited. Korea.com, IMBD, and Generasia give the name this way as well. These are places where people who would know this type of information are active, yet no where is it suggested that her real name is secret, controversial, or otherwise dubious. Numerous Japanese sites give the Japanese version of this name (石川 美由紀 メロディ), for example here. The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 07:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I do not believe that any of those sources can be considered reliable sources. IMDB and Generasia are both user-edited websites, much like Wikipedia, and LucyWho and Korea.com seem dubious at best, as does the "Disc-o-graphy" page. It may be an open secret that that is her full name but there are no reliable sources out there that say "melody., real name Miyuki Ishikawa..." in English or Japanese. The only thing there is online is an unnecessary flooding of search results based on a 3 year old decision on Wikipedia and the fact that everybody and their mother knows this is her name, but we cannot verify it, much like with Rebecca Eri Rabone, Yui Yoshioka, Misaki Ito, and dozens of others. It might be prevalent in web communities, but there is no official statement from the subject herself that "Yes, this is my name".—Ryulong (琉竜) 07:44, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

If there is no question that it is in fact her name, what's the problem? The sourcing rules are for controversial material. And if you don't want web results based on Wikipedia, just add "-wikipedia" to the search. The Viking at Stamford Bridge (talk) 09:44, 16 October 2013 (UTC)