User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Paid Commercial editing

We have had long discussions about paid editing. I have taken the most evolved draft of the paid editing policy proposals and copied it to Wikipedia:Commercial editing, and marked it as a guideline. Please have a look. We may proceed to have a discussion whether to upgrade that page to policy.

Jimmy, your comments would be very helpful to establish consensus. We have a parade of editors who drop by at every proposal and state oppose with fatuous reasoning. If there is a paid editing problem, it is not unreasonable to assume that the paid editors would monitor these discussions and do whatever they could to frustrate consensus. Jehochman ^Talk 13:53, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing in WP:Commercial editing that prevents creation of articles via the Articles for Creation process, and neither does it prevent paid editors from circulating drafts of text for articles and having it incorporated within articles. So I don't think this accomplishes much of anything, other than to put in writing the status quo. Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

The status quo clearly isn't changing one way or the other on this question, so there's no harm in putting it in writing, eh? Carrite (talk) 16:45, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Now having read the proposal, I find it unacceptable because it focuses upon the editor rather than the edits, prohibiting paid editors by rule; yet at the same time recognizing that real life identification of such paid editors is expressly prohibited under WP rules. This is absolutely unworkable, yet another attempt to move the status quo where it is not going to go. We've got to make a choice: either anonymous editing or a prohibition of paid editing. You can't have them both, it can't work. Failing an end to "outing" rules, concentrate on the edits (NPOV and sourcing rules) not the editors, that's as far as things are going to go... All that a formal ban of paid editing + anonymous editing does is drive the paid editors underground, making their potentially problematic editing harder to locate and supervise. Carrite (talk) 16:52, 8 November 2013 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 16:59, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Any rule regulating paid editing, by definition, necessarily focuses on the editor and not the content. The absence of such a focus is the weakness in the status quo, and is the flaw in the current COI rules. It says in boldface: "when advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." That makes COI an entirely subjective issue totally existing within the mind of an editor, rather than an objective fact caused by payment or other factors. Anonymity does conflict with this. However, by making paid editing in all its forms a black-hat practice, a prohibition would draw clear lines that transgressors would be unethical to cross, as doing so would violate site policies. Right now, a paid editor can do pretty much anything and it is allowed by the rules. If paid editing is prohibited, a paid editing firm cannot advertise that it can "get you in Wikipedia" without admitting that it engaged in a practice that is violative of Wikipedia rules. Wikipedia can advertise, on its main page, that organizations engaged in such business do so in violation of Wikipedia policy. That would go a long way toward curbing the practice. Obviously unethical and unscrupulous people will evade such a rule, but they would evade any rule. That is not an argument for not having rules. Coretheapple (talk) 17:11, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

What you propose are ceremonial and utterly unenforceable rules that will have no effect other than to drive the paid editing that has happened, is happening, and will always happen further underground. What needs to happen is to bring the underground paid editing into the light by recognizing the fact that it is not prohibited under policy and guidelines (which is true) and making it non-punitive for such editors to follow recommended practice of declaring COI and making their work more readily available to scrutiny. To my mind the fundamental defect with WP is the fact that any bozo with a computer can create an account or not create an account and make an unsupervised change to content. That's the problem that needs to be fixed, the fact that paid agents can corrupt the database is a symptom of the illness, not the cause. Vandalism is likewise enabled by our ongoing failure to end the cult of anonymity. —Carrite (logged out due to a WMF server glitch). 24.20.128.148 (talk) 18:38, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

But don't you see? As you point out, paid editing is not prohibited by policy and guidelines yet it is already underground. Editors are already ashamed of it, even though it is permissible, and yes, they will have more reason to be ashamed of it if it is prohibited. But if that happens, the practice of large-scale advertising for Wiki editors, a greatly corrupting influence, would be greatly eroded if not stop, and the WMF may even have legal recourse against firms that conspire to violate its TOS. It would elevate Wikipedia's faltering reputation, as it would mean that Wikipedia has decided to join the rest of the civilized world and would no longer countenance a practice that is considered black-hat, illegitimate, corrupt and sleazy everywhere else. I think the argument that "they'll go underground" presupposes a degree of sleaze on the part of PR people and paid editors that I do not believe they possess. If Wikipedia outlaws paid editing, it will be greatly reduced because only the cretins (rogue firms and rogue editors willing to violate policy) will engage in it, which is something they already do. I don't see legit firms becoming illegit. There are other ways for them to make money off their clients. Getting into Wikipedia is desirable but not the be-all and end-all. No, nothing can be done to prevent the real bad guys from harming Wikipedia, but the solution is not to legitimize what they do, and make it easy for everybody to corrupt Wikipedia. Coretheapple (talk) 20:13, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Remember too that you're dealing with a small group of self-interested businessmen. This is not a societal problem, yet people address it as if it is drug addiction or illegal immigration, using rhetoric similar to "giving illegal aliens a path to citizenship" and "getting them out of the underground economy." This is a black-hat practice that hurts Wikipedia. Ban it. Period. Coretheapple (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid editing is underground because about 1/3 of the Wikipedia community believes it should be banned and acts as though it already is — harassing and blocking whether backed by actual policy or not. Nasty templating of user pages, blocking of accounts on technicalities... This all is much akin to efforts to stamp out liquor during the 1920s or marijuana in the current era, which is to say: effective only in driving things underground. Now, to your comments: Wikipedia's reputation isn't "faltering," there's no sound data on this, one or two journalists spouting off does not a trend make. My own belief is that WP's content credibility is at a record high. Carrite (talk) 00:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe I missed something in this wall of impenetrable text about what's really happening here, but when did paid advocacy transmogrify into paid editing? Who cares if someone's paid to write an article, good luck to them, but that's a far cry from advocacy. Eric Corbett 01:07, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

At the top of this thread, Jehochman wrote "We have a parade of editors who drop by at every proposal and state oppose with fatuous reasoning." There are reasonable arguments on both sides of this issue, and in addition some proposals are much better or worse than others. Simply dismissing every oppose vote (or every support vote for that matter) as "fatuous reasoning" qualifies for the Not Helping Award. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:29, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Guy Macon's comment is a typical strawman logical fallacy, and attempts to use rhetoric to validate a losing argument. I did not say that there were not legitimate opposes. I said that there are many paid editors who have a strong interest, and who are swaying consensus against the proposal. We need help to generate a consensus that is representative of the entire Wikipedia community, not just the paid editors and a few others who happen to take an interest in the issue. Jehochman ^Talk 12:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If there was any strawman here, this is it => "I said that there are many paid editors who have a strong interest, and who are swaying consensus against the proposal." You need diffs to back up the argument that many of them are paid editors.--v/r - TP 15:54, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid editing is definitely not underground. As a scientist at a university, I'm paid to do outreach in my area of research, which would include things like writing articles for Wikipedia (as an example of a paid editor being above board). Paid editors who're in violation of WP:NPOV, WP:NOTADVOCATE, and similar things are underground, but they're already acting in violation of policies. WilyD 06:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Carrite (talk · contribs), when a company, politician, or other large public institution is caught editing its own Wikipedia page, it is regularly crucified in the press. These sort of expose articles in the press come out pretty regularly, and have been coming out since the mid-2000s, when Wikipedia became large enough to gain public notice. Companies don't worry what Wikipedians think of them--an angry editor or two is hardly worth a second thought. Companies fear being exposed in the press as editing their own page. The present uncertainty in policy also denies them a public defense of "we followed policy." WilyD (talk · contribs), I can understand the distinction you're trying to draw, but Wikipedia needs fewer legalisms and technical terms. When someone says a police officer can't accept gifts, they don't mean departmental bonuses. When we say editors can't accept pay, I think it is pretty clear what we mean, and it does not include an academic who is paid to do research writing in their field of expertise. We can spell it out in policy, but creating the technical terms "paid editing" and "paid advocacy" leads to two outcomes: it makes discussions less accessible to new-comers and it gives outfits like Wiki-PR ammunition to continue their fight to be profitable at Wikipedia's expense. I know a lot of folks have started drawing the distinction, but I would say we should be cautious in inventing new technical terms when the meaning is generally clear without them. --TeaDrinker (talk) 07:54, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If we know what we mean, we should say what we mean. The potential policies say something very different, and it seems either we don't know what we mean, or we don't all mean the same thing. There's dispute over whether what TParis did was a problem, further up this page. You shouldn't assume what you think the problem is is what everybody thinks the problem is. Jimbo asserts, for instance there are people who're compliant with WP:NPOV, WP:NOTADVOCATE, etc, whose behaviour still needs to be curtailed because they're a problem. If that doesn't mean people like me, I can't begin to guess who it does mean. WilyD 09:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It means you and me and anyone who is writing expressly about their employer/benefactor. Have you ever been criticized for a financial conflict of interest? Concepts, like physics, which one may safely write about, assuming one does so appropriately, are not persons or organizations that pay people to write about themselves. And yes, each one of us has to manage our own conflicts of interest. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:32, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. That's why I changed the name of my proposal to "Commercial editing" from "Paid editing" because that helps distinguish between the two cases. You can be paid to edit a topic, so long as that topic is not closely related to the people doing the paying (or a competitor). Apple can't pay you to edit iPad, nor Microsoft, but they can pay you to edit any generic topic in computer science. Jehochman ^Talk 12:38, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

TParis may be able to get away with commercial editing because he has really high Wikipedia skills. 98% of editors who attempt commercial editing produce poor quality articles and damage the encyclopedia. We need to lose the 2% good in order to get rid of the 98% bad. All engineering involves a trade off. The argument, "This isn't perfect so we can't do it", does not convince me. TParis, I hope you don't mind me using your situation as an example. Please let me know if you do and I'll revise this comment. Jehochman ^Talk 12:17, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It's a fair criticism.--v/r - TP 15:20, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

One of the things that worries me sometimes is in the history of paid editing discussions, from MyWikiBiz to Wiki-PR, the quality of the contributions has been uniformly poor. One explanation is that the folks who try to make a business of Wikipedia editing are, on average, pretty poor writers. An alternative explanation is that the good writers never get noticed, taking pains to fly under the radar (either working through an existing PR firm or advertising freelance without connection to a traceable username). They are not going to spend time working on a client's Wikipedia page, they are going to edit the pages that congressional staff look up when policy discussions use technical terminology. If you want to get the most bang for your buck, edit the pages (with citations) to support the policy objectives you want congress and the public to take. To be clear, I have no evidence that this takes place. But I do know medical students who spend more time looking up material on Wikipedia than in their textbooks (and tend to view Wikipedia as more current). I know lots of educators who check Wikipedia's articles on current discussions in class, in hopes of gaining something that was not included in textbook's perspective. I don't really move in political circles much, but I would put good money that congressional aides check Wikipedia when formulating policy recommendations for their boss. Given that, there is a clear financial incentive to employ good writers to subtly change the perspective of key articles to support policy objectives. Billions of dollars are spent on these lobbying and PR campaigns, and the bang-for-the-buck that any of these firms could have by changing Wikipedia is far more than hiring think tanks to write books. We don't generally see those, but I think the incentives for PR firms being on Wikipedia are so large we have to assume they are here. It is that sort of paid editing that worries me the most--not your occasional contract, not the college kids who build a start-up to copy corporate websites into Wikipedia--but heavy hitters of PR getting involved, exploiting the current grey areas in paid editing. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

We already have heavy-hitters engaged in such exploitation, in two widely-publicized cases involving multinational oil companies. Staffers of the public affairs departments of those two companies became major contributors to the talk pages of those articles, and the article itself for one company. That was what sparked my interest. But you raise a good point. The job market being what it is, I can see cash-starved college students selling themselves as paid editors, and who can blame them? Given the juvenile character of some of the defenses I've seen of paid editing, I'd wager that a lot of what we're seeing are teenage paid editors venting their spleens. But since there is no disclosure requirement whatsoever, we can only guess. Coretheapple (talk) 16:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Editor survey

Surprisingly, almost everybody on this thread seems to agree on something - that for big issues, the consensus system doesn't work very well. At a minimum, a discussion among 100 editors is very hard to follow, easily sidetracked, and generally forked. The idea that a small group of editors with a very specific concern can sidetrack a whole discussion and prevent anything from changing on Wikipedia is expressed very often, whether it supposes some sort of evil intention, or just some type of "single purpose editors." This "evil cabal" type thinking has, as far as I can tell, never been tested and might even seem as untestable as the usual conspiracy theory. But actually, the general idea is very testable.

The WMF could have a simple editor survey done. Instead of a self-selected group 100 editors having their opinions considered, in an RfC cacophony, 1000 or more editors could be easily heard and have their opinions compiled in a rational way. The wording of the questions asked, would of course be a key factor, but we could have community members suggest wording to the WMF and have them decide on the final wording. The experiences and opinions of readers could also be included, perhaps in their own survey. Readers are often ignored in Wikipedia and their opinions are really very important here. Admins might have their own survey as well. At the end of say a week-long survey, the WMF could compile the results, come up with 4 or 5 general conclusions, and then go back to the editorship and say "Please come up with policies designed to implement these general principles."

Otherwise, I think we are going to be stuck with a couple of small groups at constant loggerheads who can't do anything to solve a problem that will continue to come up every 3-6 months in outside media, and will continue to destroy Wikipedia's credibility. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Consensus can work for big decisions, but it needs to be more structured. Take the 2nd RFC on the Manning naming dispute for instance. If I could make a suggestion, let's plan out an RFC in 6 months. In the meantime, I propose we build a poll on editors opinions on different parts of paid editing. We should also begin building academic opinion and build it all into an RFC that breaks each opinion into it's individual parts. Similar to the Arbcom election RFC.--v/r - TP 15:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The very problem with an RfC as opposed to a discussion on the Village Pump is that an RfC can be daunting to newbies with all the subsections and different issues broken up instead of a straight discussion; and even established users will ignore an RfC of a discussion they JUST had the village pump (and possibly other places simultaneously). The problem is not getting MORE editors involved. It is this- once a topic comes up at a noticeboard, policy talk page, or village pump and a decision is made (or not made) then all parties need to understand that IS IT. Once a decision is made "yes there is a problem at a policy wording, it is going to be changed" it gets done and no one complains- "I wasn't personally involved, call an RfC!" Too much talk goes on Wikipedia and not enough action. If there is consensus at a discussion that nothing should be done, then nothing shall be done, we don't continue discussions until your conclusion is the one that wins; and really that's all that happens around here, everyone keeps working on a topic until they "win".

I don't know where everyone has this idea that "if only we got more people involved" things will be better... democracy is the worst form of government, Winston Churchill said so himself ("except for all the others ever tried" is the rest of the quote) but we ARENT an experiment in democracy or government, except that we are, we are constantly experimenting with how to "govern" ourselves and create new !rules. In an encyclopedic adventure like we are on, democracy is not the best we can do and wanting more people involved is not the way to go. I don't want people just randomly answering questions on a WMF poll or survey. This isn't a popularity contest, decisions are made by who has the strongest case. Wikipedia to an extent is, and should be, an oligarchy, a constantly changing oligarchy for each discussion of those informed in that discussion and able to make a decision. And that decision should be implemented regardless of who was left out.Camelbinky (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Except that some editors here are calling for a ban on 'informed' editors if they fall on the wrong side of a line. That way, the only informed editors are those who support their position and will guarantee the outcome they want and expect.--v/r - TP 15:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

(@TP) Oh please. This is an endless, fruitless, energy-wasting time suck, and what your suggesting would drag out the process even more. This is an issue for the WMF, which needs to get off its duff and ban paid editing as a core principle. The Foundation needs to take action against the corruption of Wikipedia, especially now that it has become clear that administrators have been editing for money. That's the last straw. No more talk. Time for action by the Foundation, leading from the top. Coretheapple (talk) 15:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

The Foundation doesn't take action on things that arn't a legal threat. They have consistently waited for the community to develop it's own rules. Jimbo has been advocating against paid editing for years and hasn't made a decree. Waiting for that is going to take you much much longer than what I suggest. What I suggest is how we've historically come to decisions. We did it at the Manning RFC, we did it for the pending changes RFC, we do it every year for Arbcom elections, ect. You can't just open a thread and say "I think BLAH" and expect it to solve a question. RFCs with many participants need structure so ideas are clear. A long list of opinions hardly ever works out. What other reason do you wish the WMF to take a stand other than it's guaranteed to go your way?--v/r - TP 15:51, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I have to tell you very frankly that I am not comfortable with an editor such as yourself, who has accepted money for editing in the past, taking such an aggressive stance on this. I appreciate your frank disclosure of your past paid editing (at [1] above), I really do. But I frankly am not interested in hearing your opinion on what the Foundation will or will not do. I'm really not, and I mean that with the greatest respect. I would like to hear such things from the Foundation, directly, not from third parties and not from third parties who have, in the past, engaged in paid editing. Coretheapple (talk) 15:56, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

That's fine, buddy. Do you want to know what I'm up to today? I've been writing code to convert the WP:Unblock Ticket Request System from WP:Toolserver to WP:WMFLabs. None of the other developers have time for that. I've been spending hours writing code for Wikipedia when I could be picking up PHP freelancer jobs and getting paid. I have a client paying me $50/hour to work on his website, I should be doing that. Essentially, I'm losing money right now to help Wikipedia when I could be getting paid to work on another website. The toolserver goes down permanently next month, the WMF and WMDE arn't funding it anymore. I was also implementing a new OAuth protocol to make it easier for WP administrators to do review unblock tickets and make the process faster. But apparently I'm not a good enough editor here. My opinion isn't valued. My experience isn't valued. Any all of the time I put into this project behind the scenes isn't valued because I've written an article for pay before. Have I made money off Wikipedia? If you actually look at net profit and loss, I've lost a lot of money. But I care about the project so I feel it isn't any different donating time than donating money. What have you done for this project? Spend some of your 'free time' to edit some articles. Good for you. I've been around this project for a helluva lot longer than you. Whether I am more valued than you or not isn't the point. The point is, I've got a ton more experience than you. When I tell you what the WMF has historically done or not done, that's not my opinion. I'm sharing with you what has and hasn't happened. But go ahead, wait for them to ban this outright. It only serves paid editors if you wait for WMF to finally do something. Tell me, what exactly gives you more right to an opinion than me and the right to express it? Is this private website owned by you?--v/r - TP 16:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not asking for you to respect my contributions. I'm just saying that I'm not interested in your opinion on the WMF's view of paid editing. I'm also saying that your aggressive stance on this issue makes me uncomfortable because you have accepted money for editing in the past. That's all. Nobody can stop you from opining on this subject or being as aggressive as you have been. I'm just registering my objection. While I'm at it, I think that given the fluid nature of Jimbo's talk page, and the fact that sections are frequently archived, you should voluntarily self-disclose in every new discussion on this subject that you have accepted money for editing. Coretheapple (talk) 16:32, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I think I've well enough disclosed. A pet peeve of mine is people telling others where they are and are not allowed to give an opinion. With the exception of the WMF, no one has that right here alone. Please do not expect me to respect your requests on Jimbo's talk page. If you want me to stay off yours, that's fine. If he wants me to stay of his, that's fine. But this isn't your space to make those rules. I've politely ignored them in the past. I'm also rather perturbed at your accusations that I am aggressive. I've defended this, I've not aggressively defended it. I can be aggressive, I just was a moment ago. Me arguing with you isn't me being aggressive. If you hear an aggressive voice in your head when reading my comments, that's your voice in your head; not mine. Back off the accusations here buddy. They, and not my defense, are harming open discussion of this issue.--v/r - TP 16:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I think I've well enough disclosed. Where? I see no disclosure in this section, only in an early discussion on this very large page that is going to be archived fairly soon, in accordance with the 24-hour practice on Jimbo's page. Coretheapple (talk) 17:09, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

You're making an arbitrary rule. It is clear from the context of our discussion. I've already disclosed on this page and others. There is no requirement to disclose in every thread. The next requirement you'll make of me is that I disclose it in every single comment. And then every single edit summary. After that, every 3rd word will need a disclosure in parenthesis. It's silly. I'm following policy, my disclosure is evident.--v/r - TP 17:13, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm making a reasonable request, one that I think is reasonable for all paid editors. Coretheapple (talk) 17:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't find it reasonable, No one here is unaware of who I am. I therefore reject your request as unreasonable. You may seek to change the WP:COI policy on this if you choose.--v/r - TP 17:27, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Well I hope that you'll reconsider when paid editing arises on pages in which you have not made a previous disclosure. Please think about it. Also I hope that you'll revise your opinion generally on paid editing, as I would like to see you on the other side of the issue instead of butting heads. Coretheapple (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with TParis participating in this discussion. He's explained that he does some paid editing, so we all know where he stands. The policy would affect him, and he should have a say because of that. TParis, what do you think about having commercial editing restricted to userspace drafts or talk pages, and having to get a neutral editor to review the work before copying it into article space? Could you live with that process? It might be a little burdensome, but if it removed the controversy, and gave you a way to legitimize the activity 100%, would it be worth it? Jehochman ^Talk 16:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I was a great deal more comfortable with TParis engaged in this discussion until his posts here, when I noticed that he was not disclosing that he is a paid editor, and then aggressively advocating what amounts to a "talk-it-to-death" proposal for paid editing. That made me extremely uncomfortable, and my discomfort is not decreasing. Coretheapple (talk) 17:05, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman - I'm comfortable with whatever the community decides and the policy says. It's a bit difficult finding editors to do a NPOV check and make the edit but if we were to maybe merge the idea into the AfC process or even have something similar to {{editprotected}} then it could work.--v/r - TP 17:11, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I tend to see TPairs's paid editing participation a bit like they reporter whose lunch was once paid for by a city councilman about whom he was writing a article. Maybe it is an issue, but it such a small amount I don't really anticipate any substantive effect. Part of the problem in the paid editing discussions is we discuss these grey area examples extensively, when it is the clear cut examples which are causing problems. There is no question TParis is a superb editor whose work we would all do well to try to emulate. I, for one, value what he has to say here, regardless of his paid editing status. The concern about paid editors stacking the discussions and advocating for a continued expansion of paid editing is real, but a focus on TParis seems to look on what is at best a supremely minor transgression at the expense of the larger and more pertinent issues. We should indicate that a ban on paid advocacy should include a ban on paid advocacy in policy/guideline discussions, or at least we should determine how to deal with it. --TeaDrinker (talk) 17:14, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I think that a more direct analogy would be to a reporter taking $100 to draft an article that appeared in the publication, if one uses Dennis Lo as an example. Reporters take meals with sources all the time; that's not considered a black-hat practice. I'm not trying to single out TParis here, but he has injected himself into this discussion, in his vigorous defense of paid editing in the previous discussion, and now he is continuing his participation here. I realize that he has a right to participate, but there needs to be transparency and disclosure. Had I not raised the issue, there would not be any in this discussion. To respond to his post above, I think that once per discussion makes sense. When editors are directly impacted, off-wiki, by a policy, that should be disclosed. That goes for all editors, not just him. Coretheapple (talk) 17:19, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Most reputable newspapers and magazines have pretty strict rules against reporters accepting even meals from article subjects. Coretheapple, I wonder if you could clarify your position on one thing - and I apologize if you've been clear about this somewhere else and I've missed it. You've been critical, if I have understood you, of paid advocates even editing on talk pages to suggest changes. That seems a step too for me. I think it's ideal if paid advocates come to the talk pages, openly declare their position, and point out errors or request improvements. Banning even that seems precisely the step too far that will lead people, out of desperation and a feeling that there is no legitimate avenue to proceed, to go underground. My view is that we need both the carrot and the stick. The carrot already exists, despite some people's claims that it doesn't - approach us honestly and openly and problems really do get resolved very effectively. We should not make that harder.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:32, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

(restore indentation) I think that it's OK for subjects of articles to come to talk pages and ask for fixes, updates or improvements in the article. But what we've seen in some articles is that this privilege has been abused. The PR people for large companies have made lengthy drafts of entire swaths of text, posted it on the talk pages and as subpages on their own user pages, and those texts have then been placed within the articles by other editors. That complies with current practices. However, I have three problems with this:

1. Theoretically, editors should thoroughly vet the material posted by the companies. But as a practical matter that doesn't happen, and the result is that the text went into the articles, and the text provided by the companies has been flawed in various ways: mainly by giving short-shrift to negative information.

2. More broadly, this practice breaches the reader's expectation that what appears in Wikipedia is drafted by uninvolved, unpaid editors, not by the company. There is a signficant qualitative and quantitative difference between drafting an entire updated section on a company's ongoing litigation, using sources suggested by and text written by the company, and merely correcting errors or updating numbers.

3. In some instances, corporate employees have become the dominant voice on the talk page of articles, giving them a role in the editorial process that they should not have.

The above is also why I think that paid editors using Articles for Creation is also a bad idea. Coretheapple (talk) 17:44, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If your gripe is that the reviewers of paid editing arn't qualified to recognize NPOV, then that applies to all editors. In which case, anything that any Wikipedian writes is potentially biased and slanted. And then it's impossible through editing to ever find NPOV because we're not qualified to find it. The root of your problem is that it's premise is a failure on all editors to be able to recognize and write neutrally which means this project has already failed.--v/r - TP 17:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Volunteer editors are very good at recognizing blatant examples of imbalance and puffery. But when a skilled PR person or experienced paid editor drafts text, what we see time and time again is that the text seems OK, but is not. Material facts are not included. (See the concerns raised re Dennis Lo in the discussion above this one, in which an NPOV check of an ostensibly neutral paid-for article proved inadequate.[2]) There is also a question of equity. It is not fair to ask unpaid editors to volunteer their time to vet the work of paid editors.

In addition to the above, there is the question of disclosure to readers and the fundamental unreliability of material that is from COI editors. See the discussion of academic practice in [3] and the post at the top of [4]. Coretheapple (talk) 17:57, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

There is no question that the academic experience with conflicts of interest is that even with extensive expert reviewing, a substantial bias slips into academic articles about purely factual claims when editors have a conflict of interest. New graduate students are trained (or should be trained) to check the conflicts of interest section of papers and discount the conclusions accordingly (see, for example, the advice of Greenhalgh's How to Read a Paper). Wikipedia has a somewhat greater task--non-experts reviewing editorial decisions (as opposed to factual claims) in a haphazard way, with no accessible disclosure to the ultimate reader that the source of the material was coming from someone with a conflict of interest. In that sense, we can say with a good deal of confidence that the talk page only approach will lead to a bias in favor of those who pay. The question is first, whether that is preferable to the alternative of a total ban (which, as noted, might well drive well-intentioned editors underground), and second, whether other actions can be taken to ameliorate the issue. --TeaDrinker (talk) 18:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Except that the result of a badge of shame on the article is, again, paid editing will happen underground. A method needs to be developed that trusts Wikipedians to make a NPOV check and encourages paid editors to be up front and honest.--v/r - TP 18:33, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec - @TeaDrinker) I'm not in favor of a total ban. That wouldn't be fair to subjects of articles when there is factually incorrect or biased material. But there has to be some kind of limit to the use of talk pages by subjects, so that they don't become de facto article authors or lead editors. Re "drive underground": I don't buy that argument for reasons I've indicated previously. Paid editors are rational businessmen, not agenda-driven POV-pushers. If Wikipedia or the Foundation lays down the law and bans paid editing, you won't eliminate it completely but you'll go a long way toward curbing the practice totally. Coretheapple (talk) 18:34, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

If paid editing is a huge problem, and the thought of it being driven underground isn't 'bought', then where are all the other paid editors? Why am I the only one open about it? I'll give you a hint, it's because I care more about Wikipedia than paid editing. But what about all the people ont he flipside who care more about getting paid. You think they are open? You think your badge of shame is going to make them come out?--v/r - TP 18:49, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Quite a few paid editors are open about it, but only a few have the "chutzpah" to aggressively fight for their right to be paid. As for "badge of shame," I have no idea what you're talking about. Coretheapple (talk) 19:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

For your information: I became interested in this subject when I edited a corporate page in which a p.r. person was open and active. I was not even aware that there was this "cottage industry" phenomenon until quite recently. Something else you ought to know: every single paid editor I've ever encountered has claimed on a stack of bibles that he places the interests of Wikipedia above his employer, his flag, apple pie and mother. Coretheapple (talk) 19:12, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Anecdotal at best.--v/r - TP 19:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I am curious what kind of evidence you would find convincing. Can you describe the sort of non-anecdotal evidence that would indicate to you paid editors can be a problem? --TeaDrinker (talk) 20:19, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't have to prove to me that paid editors can be a problem. You have to prove all the other wild accusations. Coretheapple is questioning whether I am a good faith editor or not, by using anecdotal evidence to say he hears the same thing I've said a lot. That's anecdotal. Real evidence would be in the form of diffs (or an RFC/U with diffs) that demonstrate that I'm not here to build an encyclopedia.--v/r - TP 20:42, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

We're here to discuss policy on paid editing. It's not about you. We already discussed your paid editing above[5], when you arrived and aggressively put forward your view that paid editing is not a bad thing. We discussed that in full. We can do so again, but that's not the purpose of this discussion. Coretheapple (talk) 20:51, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Here's a list of about 400 paid editors informally compiled at Wikipediocracy (basically just obvious paid editors that contributors have stumbled upon). Perhaps it will be of some use in whatever it is you all are trying to do here.Dan Murphy (talk) 18:55, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

That's helpful. Thanks. Coretheapple (talk) 19:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Id like to point out that the link to Idiocracy (oops Wikipediocracy I mean) is to a thread that contains some information about editors that if it were directly posted here on Wikipedia it would be in direct violation of the outing policy. I recommend that it be removed. You want to go play over there, that's your problem; but don't take their crap and post it when it violates policy.Camelbinky (talk) 20:36, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

(sigh) You're probably right. Coretheapple (talk) 20:39, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, how goes the "Remove That Link!" campaign? The link is still there. Also, we note that you call "crap" one of the most important aspects of any serious investigation: the gathering of factual evidence. But, thank you for inadvertently pointing out the basic reason why Wikipedia will never have a serious policy against paid editing -- Wikipedia's "No Outing" policy (and culture) will always be more important than the discovery process required to identify paid editors. - 2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61 (talk) 16:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

There is so much paid editing going on that I don't think it takes Sherlock Holmes to find it. I just started using an automated vandalism-fighting tool called STiki, and just today I stumbled upon two articles with blatant COI editing. One article led to a half-dozen obvious paid editors. However, I have to admit that one has to get out of one's little niche to find such things. As I said, I became interested in this by becoming involved in a Wiki article about a large oil company that had a PR person stationed on the talk page, and at the time had no idea that what seemed like a peculiarity in one or two articles was actually a cancer that had metastasized throughout Wikipedia. Every day I'm finding something new. Really interesting! Coretheapple (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• Leaving the thread I'm leaving the thread, and really Jimbo's talk page for the time being. I don't know why I even participated. Ya'all have nothing but anecdotal evidence and indignation on your side. That'll never convince the community. And Jimbo and the WMF will never make a decree. It's not how the WMF operates, it's not how Jimmy operates. Jimmy has always been hands off except on legal issues. It's a core principal of his character to defer to the community and it made Wikipedia what it is. He offers his well thought opinions but he doesn't push it on the community. Change is going to have to be brought by the community and with significantly better arguments than anecdotal evidence, circular reasoning, and 'it should be obvious'. I still think my RFC idea is a good one, structure is what the community needs to solve this, so anyone interested can ping me.--v/r - TP 20:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

"I don't know why I even participated." Wasn't it to vigorously defend paid editing? Coretheapple (talk) 14:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

• The list posted by Dan Murphy appears to be impermissable, but I've just become aware of another location where paid editing is given a forum by Wikipedia, a kind of Paid Editing Marketplace: something called the Reward Board, Wikipedia:Reward board. I had no idea that this existed until now. Amazing. Coretheapple (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that someone who has been editing Wikipedia since at least September 2012, who hadn't yet discovered the Wikipedia:Reward board until November 2013, probably shouldn't be heavily participating in discussions about paid editing on Wikipedia, because they have clearly not done much background research to fully inform themselves of the situation. This is not meant to be a slap in the face; just a basic observation that Coretheapple was until two days ago entirely ignorant of one of the key justifications in favor of paid editing on Wikipedia. (And by "heavily participating", I am talking about the fact that at least 178 of Coretheapple's most recent 500 edits to Wikipedia spaces have centered on paid editing (nearly 36%). Coretheapple would likely benefit from learning more about the problem, saying less.) - 2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61 (talk) 16:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

IPv6, please don't be rude. We are especially interested in the opinions of new editors. How else can Wikipedia continue to attract editors if we do not listed to the ones recently joining? Jehochman ^Talk 16:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Jehochman, sorry if this is off topic, but you bring up a subject that is of interest to me, i.e. the opinions of new editors. Off hand would you happen to know of any threads (current or archived) where I could look at discussions involving or relating to that topic? No problem if you don't. Thanks. -- Jodon | Talk 15:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

If we have already listened 177 times, perhaps the 178th breaks the camel's back. - 2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61 (talk) 16:07, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

IP, you appear to be an experienced editor. What is your user name? You do realize, I presume, it doesn't seem very kosher to not log in to avoid scrutiny. Or is that like paid editing: another unethical practice that is permitted and even encouraged in the Bizarro World of Wikipedia? Coretheapple (talk) 16:19, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

My current User name is User:2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61. I am not using other named accounts in conjunction with this User name. I have as much right to my privacy as you do, "Coretheapple". Note that I have created dozens of Wikipedia articles before, using other accounts in good standing. You have not created even a single Wikipedia article in over a year's time. Why are you taking a superior attitude toward me, and lecturing on what is "kosher" or not? I help expand the world's knowledge. You hector us about the ethics of paid editing. Which of us is better fulfilling the Wikipedia mission? - 2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61 (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

When you say "hector us," do you mean "hector other IP users with four contributions"? I'd love to see your other articles. Where do I find them? Why are you hiding your Wiki-identity? Coretheapple (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Not only was I ignorant of the Reward Board but so are readers - you know, those irrelevancies. Every time I turn over a rock it seems that another form of paid editing crawls out. Every new day brings yet another discovery of the extent to which this practice has corrupted Wikipedia and has become an institutionalized practice. Originally I thought that paid editing was just the PR people of large oil companies dominating the talk pages of their articles. Over time I have come to see that it is an accepted part of Wikipedia, very much welcomed by large numbers of editors, in which administrators participate and an actual Wikipedia mechanism exists to facilitate paid editing. If this is news to me, imagine how readers feel when they discover that some of the articles they read are in fact advertorials, with the COI not disclosed? Coretheapple (talk) 16:12, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Let me help you with your perspective, Corey, with a simple re-write. "Every time I turn over a Wikipedia page it seems that another form of paid editing enlightens us. Every new day brings yet another discovery of the extent to which this practice has enhanced Wikipedia and has become an institutionalized practice. Originally I thought that paid editing was just the PR people of large oil companies dominating the talk pages of their articles. Over time I have come to see that it is an accepted part of Wikipedia, very much welcomed by large numbers of editors, in which administrators participate and an actual Wikipedia mechanism exists to facilitate paid editing. If this is news to me, imagine how readers feel when they discover that some of the articles they read are in fact gems of knowledge, with the COI properly balanced by the paid editor?" Now, go on, good WikiCitizen. Create your first Wikipedia article, and let us know how it feels to be a creator of good, rather than a curmudgeonly monster. - 2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61 (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Now I've seen it all. Putting words in a Wikipedia editor's mouth now runs concurrent with putting words in Wikipedia's mouth (i.e. paid editing). Next you'll be charging Coretheapple for ghostwriting his edits. -- Jodon | Talk 16:04, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The perspective that you envision gives Wikipedia about as much credibility as the Yellow Pages but hey, whatever floats your boat. Coretheapple (talk) 17:21, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

By the way, re "creation of my first Wiki-article": where do I sign up to be paid to create one? I don't want to be a sucker. I want to get on the gravy train like so many others. Coretheapple (talk) 17:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

If you have to ask, then you're probably not a very good independent researcher, and therefore you wouldn't likely make a very good article writer... paid or otherwise. - 2001:558:1400:10:A926:471D:C782:8A61 (talk) 20:36, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Judging from the volume of sheer garbage that gets into Wikipedia, including blatant advertising that is allowed to fester for years, I doubt that one has to be an Einstein to get a pretty good paid-editing business up and running and thriving. Coretheapple (talk) 22:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I've made an attempt at a proposed policy at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest limit. There is an RfC for it at Wikipedia talk:Conflict of interest limit. This proposal is supposed to be a minimal limited on some editing when there is a financial conflict of interest. It is meant to be independent of existing or future policies and guidelines. I do not pretend that it prevents all the bad stuff, just some of it. I would encourage you to give your support or, more likely, opposition at the RfC. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:52, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

I guess my concern about the page is that we already have so many discussions and they all seem to be endless, protracted, and heading nowhere. Without the Foundation acting, clearly nothing will happen. Coretheapple (talk) 14:04, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Then nothing SHOULD happen. If the Community is that divided then nothing should be done at all. It is ridiculous of you to believe that if you cant get others to agree with you then the WMF should step in and enforce your point of view. Well, I'm going to go around to every policy, pump, noticeboard, and discussion page and if people don't agree with me that you should shut up I'm going to start ranting that the Foundation should unilaterally shut you up. How would you feel about that? How about you stop with this and let everyone go their own ways and worry about the next drama. You are wasting valuable resources and people's time.Camelbinky (talk) 13:54, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I'll snap my fingers and immediately put a stop to the four? five? six? (and counting) paid editing proposals now underway. As for the Foundation: as I've said before, ultimately it's Wikipedia as an institution that is harmed by the hundreds of paid editors who are swarming over the project with the tacit and even explicit approval of the Wikipedia community. Obviously the community has failed to protect Wikipedia's franchise and brand name from that cancer, so if the Foundation has any sense of self-preservation it will abolish paid editing. But ultimately that's their responsibility and not the community's problem. They don't need me to tell them that.

I think that the community is acting very logically by leaving the door open to paid editing. If paid editing is allowed by the rules and is even practiced by administrators, why should anyone edit here for free? Clearly some experienced editors have a sense of entitlement, a feeling that they've worked long and hard and deserve a little gravy as compensation for all the tedious work they've put in. You can't really blame them, and if it means that Wikipedia gets several thousand more advertorials, and large corporations get hired helpmates, administrators included, to push their POV, so be it. Coretheapple (talk) 14:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• @Core. Re: "Every time I turn over a rock it seems that another form of paid editing crawls out. Every new day brings yet another discovery of the extent to which this practice has corrupted Wikipedia and has become an institutionalized practice. Originally I thought that paid editing was just the PR people of large oil companies dominating the talk pages of their articles. Over time I have come to see that it is an accepted part of Wikipedia..." - You are starting to get it. Paid editing is here, it has always been here (at least in the Years After Kohs, 2004 or whatever that was), and it always will be here as long as WP is important on the internet... The key thing isn't the editors, per se, it's what they are doing, it's the edits. The contributions of paid editors need to be watched and bad actors removed. If they all (good and bad) are being chased down by administrators with flamethrowers, they will just hide and their contributions will be more difficult to watch. We need to make them easier to watch and that means there needs to be — simultaneously — (1) a demand made that they identify themselves; and (2) a mechanism for easy identification of their edits in the edit history, a little "COI" notation next to their signature, activated by their checking a box like the THIS IS A MINOR EDIT box in the edit window or some such; with (3) real anti-stalking protection for those identify themselves and adhering to NPOV so that self-identification doesn't mean self-immolation. Real regulation of the content changes made by paid COI editors is going to require a move by the community to ultra-realism. Failing that, we have the status quo... Carrite (talk) 04:36, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I think that it has merit to identify COI edits, which at this point are not disclosed at all (though I notice that there is vociferous opposition to identifying COI edits as you suggest; I've seen paid editors and their defenders refer to such disclosure as "badge of shame"). But remember that you're talking about internal disclosure, to other editors. There would still be nondisclosure to readers, which is the only disclosure that really counts. Readers would continue to see articles that they think are created by volunteer editors but are actually created by agents of the subject.

I disagree strongly with the notion that paid editors being here is a kind of permanent condition like syphilis that has to be accepted and controlled. Paid editors are here because there are no rules against it, because of cynical, selfish abuse of the "focus on contributions and not contributor" principle, and because the COI guideline is a joke. It has got to be the most ridiculous COI guideline anywhere. It makes COI a subjective issue, existing completely in the mind of the editor rather than an objective fact cause by financial or other circumstances that are an objective reality. Under Wikipedia's cockamamie guideline, COI exists "when advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Wikipedia." I have yet to meet a COI or paid editor who didn't insist on a stack of bibles that he places Wikipedia above all else.

There are currently two forms of paid editors: the stupid ones and the smart ones. The stupid ones create user names like User:Acme Finance Company and create articles on the Acme Finance Company. The smart ones are experienced editors who create advertorials on behalf of clients and are able to stay within the rules while doing so. Passing a rule against paid editing will effectively eliminate the smart paid editors, and you'll be left with the dumb ones, who are already out there and are never going to go away no matter what rule you pass. But I do think even the dumb ones will be deterred if Wikipedia passes a rule against paid editing and then publicizes it, and places a notice on Wikipedia in a place where it can be seen. Remember that even the dumb ones are not prohibited by policy but only discouraged by a guideline.

Lastly, you talk about "real regulation of the content changes made by paid COI editors." That's precisely the problem. Volunteers are currently wasting thousands of hours because of paid editing, in either cleaning up their messes, chasing after the crap they write, or figuring out how to curb them, It is an enormous time suck and burden on the rest of the community, and demoralizing for editors who aren't on the gravy train and who resent the ones who are, especially when they are experienced editors who exude entitlement, or who want to leave open the door to doing a little moonlighting in the future. It's hard to expect unpaid volunteers, especially academics and others who are familiar with real-world COI, to stay if you have this paid editing problem, addressed only by a clownish COI guideline, and won't fix it. Coretheapple (talk) 14:18, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

One practical issue with disclosure to the readers on the article page itself, is that articles change over time and any single edit or series of edits can be obliterated by later edits. Do you propose that a single edit by a COI editor to an article would require a disclosure to be maintained on the article page for perpetuity, regardless of the actual persistence of that change to the text? If you would not advocate something that extreme, do you see a realistic way to assess when disclosure would no longer be required (or, indeed, meaningful) for the article? alanyst 20:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

What got me interested in this subject in the first place was corporate p.r. people authoring entire segments of an article, and that was placed within the text by other editors. Then it became apparent articles are written by the subjects and placed in Wikipedia through the Articles for Creation Process. I think that you need to either abandon such practices or make a disclosure. None of the current proposals address those situations. Coretheapple (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Why would paid editors engage with such hostility?

Above, Corey describes paid editing with the following terminology liberally sprinkled throughout:

• "like syphilis"
• "cynical, selfish abuse"
• "editors who create advertorials"
• "their messes"
• "the crap they write"
• "an enormous time suck and burden"
• "demoralizing"

All of this venom is being leveled by someone who has never even created a single Wikipedia article from scratch. Tell me, why would any successful and talented paid editor even bother trying to engage someone like Corey, when there's so much hatred to chisel through before you even get to having a thoughtful discussion? - 2001:558:1400:10:74CC:4937:25F3:2294 (talk) 18:28, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh please. These are paid operatives, not blushing magnolia flowers. They're here for the buck not for accolades. But rest assured that their POV contributions very often do get accolades from naive editors, and that people concerned about their activities in the past have been hauled before various Wikipedia tribunals, for daring to not "assume good faith" of paid editors.

Speaking of editing records, what is yours? Why are you hiding your editing record by not logging in? What are you hiding? Coretheapple (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

If you want to have transparency at Wikipedia, it starts first thing in the morning when you look in the mirror. Who are you? Until you answer that, you've got no room to throw stones about others playing hide-and-seek... —Tim Davenport, Corvallis, OR /// Carrite (talk) 02:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll respond to your points in a few days after I log out to hide my previous contributions. Coretheapple (talk) 14:29, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The painfully obvious answer is that they wouldn't, and won't, engage with Wikipedia as long as they see such a welcome mat rolled out—they will continue to try and edit anonymously like nearly every other editor here. Until there is a strong WikiProject that proactively and positively engages with paid editors, they will remain underground.

The one time I ever engaged with an editor who was obviously an employee of a non-profit article that I was watching, I suggested just that: learn Wikipedia policies, edit neutrally, use reliable sources, and don't reveal yourself. I've never edited for pay, but do sympathize with the frustration that individuals and companies must feel when they see incorrect or purely negative attack/hate pieces in their subject's articles. I honestly hope that some day I can I can invite an obviously employed/paid editor to engage with editors here. First Light (talk) 19:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

They do, and happily, to the present day. While their unpaid and paid defenders clog the various boards where this practice is discussed, dominating the discussion as usually happens whenever the subject is raised, they are doing their job and smiling on their way to the bank. I have to admit, though, that whenever IP editors arise in righteous indignation to defend this loathsome practice, I have to smile. Coretheapple (talk) 20:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Cooperation exists to work with paid editors, and Wikipedia:WikiProject Integrity exists to keep a watchful eye on them. isaacl (talk) 01:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

• It is my fervent hope that paid editors - or at least the bigger outfits - will deal with the hostility some members of the community have against them, because if they continue to operate as they have been operating, WMF will eventually bring litigation against them for egregious violations of the ToU. Kevin Gorman (talk) 03:21, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Internet versus vaccines

Jimbo, do you truly believe that giving the free Internet access to the poor countries is more important than providing them with vaccines and clean water? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.41.73 (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Good job, IP. Keep Der Jimbo on the edge of his seat. Sooner or later he needs to take control of Wikipedia to institute a governance system, and on a broader level needs to make the compromises that will allow this encyclopedia—and free knowledge as a whole—to prosper. Wer900 • talk 16:35, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Two editors who are not here to build the encyclopedia. The first one is a troll asking a trick question, to which Jimbo gave a wise answer. The second is pushing an almost incomprehensible governance agenda by means of false statements, and thinks that his governance agenda is so brilliant and memorable that he expects readers of his page to have memorized it. Thank you for giving a wise answer to a trick question, Jimbo. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Give a man a fish and a fishing rod today, and then give him the Wikipedia article Sustainable fishery tomorrow --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:53, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I do not think that giving free Internet access to poor countries is more important than providing them with vaccines and clean water. I think precisely the opposite and have said so publicly many times. I am a great admirer of Bill Gates' work particularly on the development of vaccines, but also the work of the Gates Foundation more generally to take a reasoned and well-financed approach to a great many global problems. Bill Gates is a very smart man and almost never wrong about these matters.

At the same time, I think it wrong to think of these things as being "either/or" - the solution to the problems of the very poor is multi-faceted, and people who are interested to help should feel free to do so in whatever way best suits their own talents, abilities, and expertise. Giving people free access to the Internet (or to Wikipedia) will not solve their problems with lack of water and vaccines - but solving their problems with lack of water and vaccines won't automatically give them the tools they need to overcome the tyrannies that have plagued them. Wikipedia volunteers should not drop their work on the grounds that the poorest of the poor need vaccines more - most of us can't meaningfully contribute to that problem. Mobile carriers shouldn't refuse to take positive steps to offer educational/health resources for free in these areas on the grounds that they need vaccines even more.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, emergency assistance is needed in many areas, and there are a lot of organizations working on that. They do good work and should be commended for that. But over the longer term, education may allow these areas to develop the infrastructure and educated population that will render such assistance unnecessary. The Internet is a powerful tool to provide that, and so getting that to underserved populations is an important goal as well. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the Gates Foundation has a bad record in U.S. education; some of their more drastic experiments in tinkering with the structure of schools and schooling have destroyed schools and deprived students of their chances, to an extent that the students and schools involved may never entirely recover from (ask anybody involved in the "break up North Division High" fiasco here in Milwaukee). --02:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime." A great old saying, but it does not imply that a starving man should not be given a fish today (to eat while learning to fish!).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:25, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It is worth noting, as Jimbo implied, that the world economy and people of good will are capable of working on providing clean water, vaccines and improved internet access simultaneously. And several other good things as well. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Developing a modern electronic infrastructure in a developing country will allow such a country to build up their infrastructure in cheaper and more effective way. E.g. in Afghanistan it may be more practical to build mobile networks and then set up virtual government offices, virtual police stations etc. etc. That has the advantage that people from remote locations don't need to travel over poor roads. This then allows the government to have a presence also in remote locations, the lack of this presence is allowing insurgents to have more influence. A physical police station in some remote location is also an easy target for insurgents. Also, if there is a local police station in a remote location, you can't go there and report some crime without the whole village finding out about that. You can even imagine a virtual parliament were politicians can meet that is far less costly than a real physical parliament building which would require a lot of security. Count Iblis (talk) 14:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Nice response but as one of your user correctly pointed out first a man should get a fishing rod and then thought how to fish. There's something the WMF could do to help. Every year the WMF collects in donations much more money that is needed to run Wikipedia. Why don't donate a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization? 69.181.41.73 (talk) 17:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Um, is that true? Could User:Wnt or someone else knowledgeable please let us know if the WMF really collects a considerable amount of extra money.Camelbinky (talk) 17:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This wasn't my thread, but I can know as much as anyone who reads this. If I read it, that is! :) For example, I see it says that the Wikimedia Shop we were talking below processed a whole 2000 orders in 2012-13! :) Wnt (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, no, it isn't true. It is true that the WMF has been modestly increasing reserves each year in line with the overall growth of revenue/budget/projects, but that growth has been squarely in line with recommended best practices for nonprofit organizations. If we spent every penny which came in, without building a reserve, people would be rightly critical of us for doing that. If we grew a reserve endlessly and out of line with best governance norms, people would be rightly critical of that. There can and should be some debate about what the appropriate level of reserves is, and some debate about whether we should be pursuing an endowment strategy (i.e. trying to get enough money now such that Wikipedia could survive and thrive from interest earnings alone, or some other similar target). But the ip's allegation is just not very helpful nor particularly reasonable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Can WMF help sweatshop laborers avoid predatory job brokers?

I was utterly disgusted by [6], describing how laborers to make iPhone cameras were first made to borrow and hand over huge (for them) sums of cash to broker after broker before they finally had a chance to be laid off from the Apple subcontractor and go home in debt.

Do you think it's conceivable to set up a jobs.wikimedia.org site to act as a clearinghouse for offers and tips about those sorts of positions, that would somehow work to help the companies looking for workers be able to bypass that whole crooked hierarchy? (I admit, I don't know how to do that, but I think someone does) I suppose some brokers would be inevitable, since the people lack Internet access and doubtless there are officials who need to be paid off, but is it possible for a crowdsourced resource to collapse things to one level of middlemen only? Wnt (talk) 19:05, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

You might find something of interest at User:Wavelength/About society/Ethical options.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:01, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Just curious, Wavelength, would your proposal focus on one country/language or be global in scope? I mean, this sounds like a completely new wiki. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Liz, it was Wnt who made a proposal, whereas I provided a link to a page with related information.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

This would have to be something completely new, since it would presumably contain substantial directory content, possibly including places for individuals and companies to describe themselves, and at least featuring some kind of organization tree of trustworthy intermediaries, if they exist. It's a difficult idea, I admit - what I'd like to see is a genuine way by which employers could meet up with labor without any greedy intermediaries gobbling up half a year's wages in the middle (as described in the link at top). Though in a sense it is a drastic departure from what WMF has done in the past, yet at the same time, we see many educational institutions advertising their outreach and ability to help their graduates actually get jobs. For WMF to match them, they would want to match that function also. Wnt (talk) 05:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a wiki is the best tool for this sort of directory, nor am I sure that the Wikimedia Foundation is the best organization to run it, if it is. At the same time, I think that raising awareness of this issue is of critical importance. I would suggest that the best way we might be able to help is to make sure that our articles on this and related topics are up to date and comprehensive and neutral.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

At least in the case of Apple and the iPhone they are already beginning to shift production, especially of the chip wafers, to the USA (mostly for fear of corporate espionage, but I'd bet sweat shops play into their decision). Everyone should be politically aware, write letters to Congressmen, Senators, state legislatures, governors, mayors, along with corporate heads and major stock holders; make them aware WE are aware. The US corporations may have their factories overseas but they ultimately are headquartered in the US and responsible to American law, American stockholders, and American consumers (the US remains the purchaser of last resort, giving us a huge economic voice). We cant, and shouldn't, try to pull all US company owned factories into the US, but we can make sure those that are overseas live up to common decency and standards. It all begins with not being quiet.Camelbinky (talk) 14:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree there's a lot of simple education to be done, which I need myself. It seems incomprehensible that people in Nepal are so bad off they'll put up with all that just to get a job in Malaysia. I look at these countries, and ... at least on average, people have land, they have houses and streets, they have animals and crops, why doesn't all that add up to money? How does a global economy manufacture such desperation out of a world where we have ample resources for everyone and we don't even need the labor we have? But I feel like there should be some way that educational wikis can help people directly also. Wnt (talk) 14:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a pretty sad irony that while the smart phone revolution allows for people to connect and organize and demand change, many of the people who make the components are being left out of that very revolution because the phones they make are too expensive for them to buy. From the article: "He earns less than $90 per month and owes about $300 in interest annually." The cheapest unlocked iPhone 4s that I see on apple's website right now is $450.

I wonder also whether or not a Kiva-style site where people can loan money to people trapped in these "indentured servitude" contracts at greatly reduced interest rates would be helpful. I know it might be very popular if managed well. If I'm reading this correctly, Dhong owes $1000 and this generates interest charges of $300 per year. If someone could loan him the $1000 at a more reasonable rate (even 10%) it'd made a substantial difference to his situation. Cutting his annual bill by $200 when he earns $90 per month would be a great relief.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Note that the interest rates charged by Kiva (organization) range around 30%, according to the article. The contributors who visit the site reduce the lender's risk, but don't receive any of that money. (I noticed though it does describe a "Kiva Zip" introduced in 2012 that seems different - those loans are direct,^[7] and I'm reading that the trustees aren't allowed to charge fees^[8]) Honesty is a scarce commodity, and at Wikipedia we should realize that, for all our problems, we have some ability to manufacture it. Wnt (talk) 15:06, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Much of that 30% are the fixed setup costs for the loan. So you could agree to pay the setup costs of 5 loans or whatever. Then the loan cost to recipient will reduce massively. John lilburne (talk) 16:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Does the article say that? If so you should update with your source, because I don't see so much as the word "setup" in all those statistics.

To a degree, I suppose we have a double standard about these things. Apple has said it has a policy against employees paying fees to get a job, and they're being vilified, even though they're the source of the jobs these people seem so desperate to get. If people donate to Kiva Zip, and it turns out that some of the trustees aren't actually recommending the best projects they hear about, but the people who pay the most for the opportunity, would we vilify them? My feeling though is that in either case, if we could find a way to have the donor and the recipient of the funds on the to and from lines of the same email, without any mandatory middlemen, things would be more efficient; and if a Wiki could make it possible for people to do that and at the same time have some confidence about what is really on the other end, it might be safer also. Wnt (talk) 19:33, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea who wrote the WP article and what their particular spin is. If I want information on this sort of thing I'll go to these reporters, who have been pretty good reporting on development issues for the last 40 years, and were reporting on microfinance back in the mid 1980s. John lilburne (talk) 19:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I found the following wikis, but they do not necessarily emphasize ethics.

• Academic Jobs Wiki
• Wiki-emploi (in French)
• Wikijob
• Mathematics Jobs Wiki - NotableMathWiki
• Psychology Job Wiki 2013-2014 - Psychology Academic Job Search
• Job Openings in Philosophy | Phylo
• Medical Wiki - Medical Jobs, Careers And Information
• Econjobmarket - BluWiki - 2013 Bluwiki
• Rumor Mill (Astrophysics jobs)
• Employment opportunities - sasCommunity
• Employment Assistance / Job Training - Los Angeles Homeless Resource Wiki

I also found the following wiki, about non-profit organizations.

• http://connectipedia.org (Connectipedia)

The following website is apparently not a wiki.

• Unskilled Jobs

—Wavelength (talk) 21:43, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I have admitted that this is beyond my expertise. The question: does a set of small, disjointed, niche sites with low readership mean that there is no way that a general wiki can become really popular, or does it provide evidence that a well-launched wiki by a reputable organization serving the whole world could really take off and become a major resource? Wnt (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I am more inclined toward believing the second interpretation.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:35, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The Foundation could get involved in anything that is within its tax-exempt purpose. If there's some way it could do that (which is questionable) it would be a fine thing to do and a source of positive publicity. Coretheapple (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

The proposed web address (jobs.wikimedia.org) should not be confused with any of the following.

• Work with us - Wikimedia Foundation
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs | LinkedIn
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs | LinkedIn
• Jobs — Wikimedia blog
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs, Employment in San Francisco, CA | Indeed.com
• Wikimedia Foundation Job Listings - Stack Overflow Careers 2.0
• Wikimedia Foundation Jobs | Glassdoor
• Wikimedia Foundation Questions & Answers | Jobs & Career

The web address https://www.wikijobs.org might be better, if it is available.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:06, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I actually checked that one idea before I even started this, but it is under GoDaddy domain squatters as expected. (Of course there are lots of obvious variations, but anything you would name would be owned by someone else before you went to register it. You have to seize the name before you mention it, but first, you have to be serious, so in general it's best to ignore naming ideas unless it's already reservable (like jobs.wikimedia.org) Wnt (talk) 20:16, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Ramtha's School of Enlightenment

Hi Jimbo! Looks like our first thread was archived. I see that you reviewed my draft and the current version. I left you a message about a couple of comments you made on the discussion page. Hope you can pop back over there soon. Calstarry (talk) 16:23, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

10% off sale in the Wikimedia Shop!

This is the ad at the top of my screen right now. It doesn't look to be a part of the fundraising campaign and it looks like tasteless spam. Aren't we better than "10 percent off this week only!!!!" forms of advertisement? ThemFromSpace 18:49, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. - Ypnypn (talk) 19:13, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Agreed - either you're donating or you're not. If you want to drum up business, get a bigger product line. I mean, last election I looked briefly into some rubber bracelet sites, and for something like $30 you get to the lowest prices for any design you can think up; they're really cheap for flat multi colored arbitrary print-out designs, etc. You don't offer those. You don't offer coffee table books with high quality printouts of Wikimedia Commons featured images. (You don't offer junior science experiment gift kits with bundled Wikiversity instructions either, but I guess I'm a step ahead there) Also, since I had scripts off I never saw the ad until I read this. Wnt (talk) 20:13, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen the ad or the shop, but I did want to suggest that suggestions for improvements on it wouldn't best be placed with me, as I'm not directly involved with such things at all!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Buying shirts from the gift shop isn't a way to raise a lot of money on Wikipedia. T-shirts, bookbags, are dual tools: 1) they promote the product, and 2) they offer the wearer a sense of pride - kind of an "I edit Wikipedia regularly, and I even bought this f-ing t-shirt". So, for those who WANT to show their pride, it's a good day to buy a 10%-off, 100% cotton, 100%-pride-inducing piece of clothing ES&L 12:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia jobs advertised

From my Yahoo search for jobs wiki, I found the following pages.

• Wikipedia Jobs, Employment | Indeed.com
• Wikipedia Jobs | Job Search with Simply Hired
• Freelance Wikipedia Jobs

(They have jobs and seek editors, but, conversely, WikiExperts.us and Wiki-PR and http://wikipediawriters.com and http://hireprowriters.com/2011/05/wikipedia-writer/ and http://www.thewritersforhire.com/services/web-social/wikipedia/ have editors seeking jobs.)
Both functions are advertised at http://hirewiki.wordpress.com.
—Wavelength (talk) 21:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Can you reach Sir Richard Branson?

Hi Jimbo, I want to thank you for your help a few weeks ago and ask another favor. I've recently learned that you likely know how to reach Richard Branson. If so, would you please let him know that the "Distributed Generation working group on LinkedIn" mentioned on [9] is not presently connected to anything? I have been trying to reach him but have been unsuccessful, and in the past on a similar issue, his staff was very dismissive. I have very many things I would like to recommend to him and his colleagues, and I hope you will please ask him to send me a Wikipedia email if at all possible, or perhaps if he approves you might send me an email with his most appropriate contact information for such topics. Thank you for any help you may be able to provide. Tim AFS (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think Sir Richard himself is the most convenient person to report a broken link to, but as it turns out I have a contact at the Carbon War Room and so I passed along the information about the broken link to her. However, this is someone I met nearly 3 years ago, not someone I know well, so I don't know if she's the right person or will be able to reach the right person nor indeed if she still works there, even.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

My contact says "Thx" so presumably the link will be fixed soon.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:02, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, sir! I hope I am able to join that LinkedIn group. If it still doesn't exist in a month or two, I hope it's okay to ping through again then. Cheers! Tim AFS (talk) 06:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You might be able to find it by searching directly on LinkedIn - I think the problem is just a bad link on the page you originally referenced.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedians commended

Martin Poulter, at the University of Bristol, has commended Wikipedians for their contributions.

• Wikipedia contributors ‘should be proud’ | News | Times Higher Education (June 30, 2013)

—Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

That's User:MartinPoulter. William Avery (talk) 20:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Interesting, after reading the article its obvious they've never edited. Its like eating sausage...it can be delicious as long as you don't ask many questions about the process, once you are familiar with how its made though....disgusting. 138.162.8.59 (talk) 21:20, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

And yet, you keep coming back for more. Resolute 02:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Are Featured Articles permanent sacred cows?

I came across a page via RfC and have been watching for a while: new edits are routinely reversed with little explanation, while discussion, on the talk page, is dismissive and regularly becomes abusive. The only explanation given is that this was once a 'Featured Article' therefore info that doesn't have "high quality" reputable sources (not just WP:RS but 'high quality)' will be deleted - or, as one put it 'go write a book, then we'll quote it'. At what point is keeping Wikipedia FA status allowed to prevent an article from being encyclopedic? AnonNep (talk) 17:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Is this about Guy Fawkes Night? In any case, sourcing policies apply to all articles, but it makes sense to be particularly alert to them in articles that are advertised as being of the highest possible quality. Looie496 (talk) 18:11, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes. And, I'd agree, in general, but I tried suggesting a FAQ, as per pages where regular questions have been settled by consensus, but there's no clear consensus in the archives (not that the loudest, regular voices, responded anyway). And, more lately, the replies to any question (because, to some, its a FA & unquestionable) have got to the 'fuck off' stage. Its a car crash in slow motion because the badge of 'FA status' rules over everything else. I didn't think Wikipedia was designed that way. Is this a glitch in the system or a policy flaw? AnonNep (talk) 18:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This isn't any kind of policy. I notice a couple of exasperating editors over there in that discussion. That's not to say that it isn't good to keep a close eye on changes to featured articles, but the scrutiny is in making sure that sources aren't misrepresented or below the general standard, not that they meet some nonexistent "higher" standard. I should note that on a few occasions I've waded into articles on the very day they were featured and fixed some fairly serious problems - the status is by no means equal to perfection. There are some that very few people care about and some that a lot of people care about, and I don't know which is worse. :) Wnt (talk) 19:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

That issue of should a Featured Article freeze like a museum piece until it shrivels into irrelevancy still bugs me. But thank you, at least I'm not the only one who cares, or sees exasperating behaviour! :) AnonNep (talk) 20:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

You are not acknowledging how exasperating it is for content builders who create and maintain featured articles because (particularly for popular topics such as Guy Fawkes Night) there is a never-ending stream of new editors who want to make some adjustment, with the vast majority of proposals being misguided, and each requiring a page of explanation. If featured articles were like a community noticeboard where anyone could paste another note over the top, the articles would quickly turn into incoherent junk yards. Johnuniq (talk) 08:14, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Articles shouldn't be bulletin boards where everyone posts another note over the top - they should be boards where everyone can always find more space around the edges. They should continually be growing and dividing. Wikipedia is not 1% complete, and indeed this article is not 1% complete when you count all the specialized subtopics it should cover. When someone knows by living in a place that the experience of a day is different than it says, and goes out and finds a source that agrees, it's a good idea to let him add that data, and when the article gets big enough, you look for some natural line of cleavage, like Pope Day, and branch off content in WP:Summary style. Wnt (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The similarity between a resume′ writer and a paid to edit editor

Jimbo. Let's assume I wanted to hire someone to write a resume′. I would want someone who is an experienced wordsmith, adept at the subtleties of manipulating words. Someone who is able to hide the truthful embarrassing facts of my frailties and flaws. Someone who can make the sun shine during a rainstorm. I would want my resume′ to highlight only the good points of my life and to barely, if at all, mention the low points. If my terrible grades as a freshman are mentioned, they might be explained as Freshman Adjustment. The sordid event and arrest resulting from the Sorority Incident could be easily passed off as a "childish prank". Since my lawyer promised that the record was expunged, there is no real need to even mention the event. The fact that I attended maybe 10% of my classes is slander and anyway, how is that pertinent, and who is gonna prove it!. I got my degree did I not. What I want, what I am paying the resume′ writer to do, is to make me look like a $10000 tuxedo. The fact that I usually run around in sandals and shorts is unimportant. He gets paid to make me look good, even if I'm a shlub. He is paid to hide my blemishes, my warts, my scars. His job is to get me THE job. Not to worry about following the Rules. And, I'm certainly not paying him to worry about the reader of the resume′. The reader is completely unimportant except for how the reader can be manipulated by my resume′ writer. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Precisely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:11, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

That's one of the best descriptions of paid editing I've ever seen. Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It also sounds a lot like WP:BLP... Wnt (talk) 14:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It was also written by someone reprimanded today for a blatant copyright violation, who issued a flippant response when asked to remove the copyvio. Not exactly someone to be lecturing us on ethics. Little surprise that he takes such a dim view of the ethical accountability of someone who would like a resume written, and of the ethics of someone paid to do so. Little surprise that Wales would instantly agree with such a dim and unfair viewpoint. - 2001:558:1400:10:C4BC:BB5A:F1CC:8EDE (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You know, I really don't understand why the paid editing peanut gallery, both the long-established apologists for the practice and their non-logged-in clones - both of whom resort to remarkably similar personal attacks and fallacious arguments - have their knickers in a twist over this discussion. It's plain that they're going to win. It's plain that nothing is going to be done. But when you're making bucks off Wikipedia, cynically exploiting the vulnerabilities of this website and its porous rules and joke-like COI policy, any threat to the gravy train seems to be met with shrill hostility. Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No, Coretheapple, they've already lost, they just don't realize it yet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)