Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
→‎User:Zigzig20s/Petit Gulf cotton: If you have access to Jstor though, feel free to expand it.
Line 322: Line 322:
:Well, it {{em|is}} a poor article, I agree. [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Monocotyledon&diff=420655103&oldid=420032291 This edit] way back in March 2011 added material apparently automatically translated from the Spanish article which has never since been properly copy-edited or had its references sorted out.
:Well, it {{em|is}} a poor article, I agree. [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Monocotyledon&diff=420655103&oldid=420032291 This edit] way back in March 2011 added material apparently automatically translated from the Spanish article which has never since been properly copy-edited or had its references sorted out.
:On the other hand, unlike dicots, historical monocots and modern monocots are the same taxon, so the content is actually not way out. [[User:Peter coxhead|Peter coxhead]] ([[User talk:Peter coxhead|talk]]) 20:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
:On the other hand, unlike dicots, historical monocots and modern monocots are the same taxon, so the content is actually not way out. [[User:Peter coxhead|Peter coxhead]] ([[User talk:Peter coxhead|talk]]) 20:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
::Is that a dismissal? The other references I looked at had this information and an article about the clade, not the historical concept for one clade and the apg clades for the others like Wikipedia. It is like you rewrote modern science out of old books for one article, a very important article, and used modern sources for the rest. [[Special:Contributions/50.250.153.211|50.250.153.211]] ([[User talk:50.250.153.211|talk]]) 04:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


== [[Aconitum]] ==
== [[Aconitum]] ==

Revision as of 04:25, 9 November 2014

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

Archives for WP:PLANTS (Archive index) edit



Metrosideros excelsa → Pohutukawa

I have started a WP:Requested Move at Talk:Metrosideros_excelsa that may be of interest to editors here. Stuartyeates (talk)

Comments sought on renaming Taxonomy of the Bambuseae

Please comment at Talk:Taxonomy of the Bambuseae. Thanks. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Opopanax

Opinions are invited about recent changes on Opopanax, which in part involve a difference of opinion about how to treat the multiple plants historically used, in light of a statement that currently "all production" is from one species. A copyright issue has also surfaced. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:50, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for Plant article template - Don't hide the family name

MOS says use plain English. But that does not mean we should not include the technical term after the plain English. I propose that the plant article template suggest stating a common name for the family in the lead sentence, followed by the scientific name in parentheses with a link, as here - Sarcodes. FloraWilde (talk) 15:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't "suggest", I would insist that if an English name for the family appears first, the scientific name must be given. In many cases different English names are used, often in different countries (see the discussion of the Asteraceae above), so they are not universally understood. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Many taxa (famlies, genera, species etc.) have no common name at all.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 02:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Species identification

Does anyone know what is the plant species? --Yuriy Kvach (talk) 19:05, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Were the images taken in a natural habitat? If so, where? What time of year? FloraWilde (talk) 22:45, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Southern Ukraine, near the sea beach. All the images made at June 2014. --Yuriy Kvach (talk) 07:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I made the description of each file in English. Thank you! --Yuriy Kvach (talk) 07:29, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be Zygophyllum fabago. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:42, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank You very much!--Yuriy Kvach (talk) 04:58, 18 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Araujia sericifera edit

Can anyone shed light on the veracity (or not) of this edit and its source? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It links to the Jepson Manual, which does use that spelling, and the Jepson Manual is a "reliable source". (Tropicos documents sericefera as another orthographic variant.) My first thought was that it was a mistake in the Jepson Manual, but if one goes back to Brotero's 1818 paper one finds that Brotero also used that spelling, so the Jepson Manual spelling may have been deliberate. That suggests that sericofera is a correctable spelling error under the IC(B)N. One needs a rules lawyer.
Wikipedia FR has a footnote which translates to "The original name given by Felix de Avellar Brotero was Araujia sericofera  ; it was corrected Araujia sericifera the same year".
One might question the notability of orthographic variants. Lavateraguy (talk) 07:36, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I had also wondered if the Jepson Manual was in error, but my lack of knowledge on these matters is such that I wasn't even aware that orthographic variants are not just dismissed as wrong. It seems surprising; is it not the case that names are either documented as synonyms, or just not recognised? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 07:54, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Article 60.1 of the ICN says that "the original spelling of a name or epithet is to be retained, except for the correction of typographical or orthographical errors and the standardizations imposed by [list of ICN articles]." One of the standardizations which over-ride the original spelling is Recommendation 60G, namely that compounds formed from Latin roots should use "-i-" as the compounding vowel, whereas those formed from Greek roots should use "-o-". Since sericus (also sericeus) and -fera are of Latin origin, the correct form is sericifera and any other spelling should be corrected to this. The alternative spellings aren't synonyms (because they aren't possible names under the ICN) but orthographic variants. I'm not sure when this "correction provision" came in, but as the ICN applies retrospectively, names which once would have been acceptable with their original spelling now aren't.
As a newcomer to plant taxonomy and nomenclature, I find the vagaries of the ICN quite fascinating (which is doubtless some kind of negative comment on my personality!). I've had quite a few names corrected in WCSP and elsewhere, both changes from the original version (the latest being Rhodochiton atrosanguineus which was published as R. atrosanguineum, but the ICN requires genders to be corrected, and the Greek chiton is masculine) and changes back to the original version (e.g. Allium bigelovii was published as this, but has been written as Allium bigelowii, as it's named after Bigelow, and this form was previously used in WCSP; however the original isn't changeable under the ICN since it was based on the latinized Bigelovius). Peter coxhead (talk) 10:09, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A few points: 1) So-called "authoritative sources" do make errors. The ICN exists to provide some way of solving dilemmas about which name or which spelling is correct. Imagine if authors could create as many orthographic variants as they want with no way to settle the arguments. 2) The question "Is this orthographic variant worthy of the status of formally recognized synonym?" is different from the question "Should we here at Wikipedia make note of such variant spellings in widely used sources and provide redirect pages to aid the reader in locating the appropriate information?"Joseph Laferriere (talk) 12:09, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely – I'm all in favour of as many redirect pages as editors have the energy to create, and well-used orthographic variants, some of which are historically more common than the spelling currently regarded as correct, should certainly be listed in the taxobox under "Synonyms" (labelled as "orth. var.") and be redirects. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Peter coxhead Certainly. I have been doing this for some time, except that I generally anglicise the "orth. var." to "spelling variation." No need to confuse people. "Nom. nud." I generally translate to "name published without description." Remember the motto: "Eschew obfuscation!"Joseph Laferriere (talk) 23:07, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Where would we be if taxonomists eschewed obfuscation? A heretical idea, indeed! Peter coxhead (talk) 07:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is often no link to the genus in plant articles, not in the lead, and not in the body. Conversely, there is almost always a link to the family in the first sentence. (If a user happens to know to look in the taxo-box, and there happens to be a taxo-box, that is the only place to find the genus link.) It is possible to put the link in the genus part of the bold faced binomial name, in the first sentence of the article. Other than producing bicolored binomial names, is there a good reason why this is almost never done? FloraWilde (talk) 22:54, 13 September 2014

This is covered in the guideline MOS:BOLDTITLE "Links should not be placed in the boldface reiteration of the title in the opening sentence of a lead". And I agree, it would be very distracting IMHO.--Melburnian (talk) 00:19, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also, promoting having a link to the genus in the first sentence may encourage non-informative and redundant constructions such as:
Fooia communis, also known as the common fooia, is a plant in the genus Fooia.
--Melburnian (talk) 01:25, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen very few plant pages without a taxobox, and when I do find one, I generally create one. It is very frequently the only place where a link to the genus page can be found, and I think this is entirely adequate. I do not need to go looking through the text to find the link to the genus page, because I know exactly where it is. A sentence such as "Zea mays is in the genus Zea" is stating the obvious. I would much prefer an opening sentence that actually says something.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 02:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Thus it's important to botanists where a taxon is placed, but usually of little importance to anyone else. I'm as guilty as anyone else of starting genus articles with information on the family placement, but I am now convinced that the first sentence should usually be descriptive. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:14, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A few points: 1) So-called "authoritative sources" do make errors. The ICN exists to provide some way of solving dilemmas about which name or which spelling is correct. Imagine if authors could create as many orthographic variants as they want with no way to settle the arguments. 2) The question "Is this orthographic variant worthy of the status of formally recognized synonym?" is different from the question "Should we here at Wikipedia make note of such variant spellings in widely used sources and provide redirect pages to aid the reader in locating the appropriate information?" 3) Most amateur plant lovers do know what a genus is and that the first half of the so-called scientific name is in fact the genus name. Most do pay some attention to families, especially the larger and more distinctive ones such as grasses, palms, cacti, etc.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 12:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But its only restating what's in the taxobox to the right and doesn't tell the reader anything specific about the plant.--Melburnian (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Further, a reader who doesn't know that Fooia communis is in the genus Fooia won't know what a genus is anyway, so will gain nothing by being told this in the first sentence. Whereas, "Fooia communis is a small tree with yellow flowers, native to south eastern Madagascar" says something informative to everyone. For a real example of a good opening sentence, how about "Hyacinthoides non-scripta ... is a bulbous perennial plant, found in Atlantic areas from north-western Spain to the British Isles, and also frequently used as a garden plant." For completeness I'd probably add "with spikes of blue flowers" after "perennial plant". Peter coxhead (talk) 08:33, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Johnbod's sentence not only has content, it has essential content that should overtly be in the lead wording.
  • Peter coxhead's first comment above is also right on the mark, a lay-person-description is almost always best to start off with - what kind of plant (tree, shrub, perennial plant, etc.), gross appearance-to-lay-person growth form (low growing, tall, thorny, bushy), lay-person-notable colors (showy yellow flowers, whitish powdery leaves, red bark), and general range and habitat (country/region, mountain range/plains, rain forest/desert, etc.).
  • But family and genus should be overtly stated in the lead first paragraph, if not the first sentence, since it is also essential content for a large number of plant article readers. There should also be links to the terms "family" and "genus", so a reader unfamiliar with these terms, or who only vaguely recalls them from a long-ago biology class, can quickly get up to speed on them - "Fooia communis (common fooia) is a small, whitish-green tree with showy yellow flowers, that is found in moist, coastal-facing slopes of the western Wikiland mountain range. It is in the Fooia genus of the commoners family (Commonaceae)."
  • One problem with relying on taxo-boxes (other than that they might not be there at all) is that many casual encyclopedia users are "sentence and paragraph reader-types", who read the words and ignore all of the boxes and tabs appearing all over their screen (the left column Wiki box, the Wiki ad banner box at top, and the taxo-box at right until they know to look there, etc.
  • Proposal - Add to the plant article template that"

"The genus and family should be overtly stated in the lead first paragraph, with a link to both "genus" and "family", e.g., "It is in the Fooia genus of the commoners family (Commonaceae)."

.
For me, the family is acceptable, but the genus? No, sorry, I don't agree. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:40, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Re: But its only restating what's in the taxobox: this is not a good reason to keep information out of the main text of the article. The taxobox should be a summary of the structured part of the information from the article; it should not be considered a replacement for that part of the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the purpose of the opening sentence is to reassure the reader that she or he has located the correct page. A sentence such as "Gardenia is a genus of plants" may seem simplistic and redundant, but it does serve the purpose of informing the reader of the fact that this is not a page on the marine crustacean named Gardenia nor the ancient Roman Province of Gardenia.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 21:20, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, a genus article needs to say that it's about a genus of plants, but that wasn't quite the point, I think. FloraWilde seems to have been asking about species articles; my reply was directed at these. I don't believe we should say that "X y is a species in the genus X". Peter coxhead (talk) 21:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I was talking about species articles. At first I suggested linking to the genus from the title, but I changed my proposal after reading Johnbod's comment. Not only should the genus be stated in a species article, but the word "genus" itself should be in the article, with a link. And I fully agree with David Eppstein's comment. FloraWilde (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't created many plant articles (and none recently), but looking at a few (e.g. Rosa fedtschenkoana), I can see that I did state genus and family in the first sentence, my reason being that I was trying to pinpoint exactly what the article was describing. In fact, I often wrote "plant genus" or "plant family", in order to make it as clear as possible to lay readers. However, I remember I was never very happy with this construction, as it seemed inelegant and laboured, and I agree with Peter that it isn't the best approach; readers who are familiar with binomial names won't need to be told which genus a species is in, whereas readers who aren't familiar with them won't understand what a genus is anyway (and linking the terms genus and family in the first sentence could lead to excessively dense linking). Personally I favour Peter's approach of a descriptive first sentence; the taxonomy can be explained later in the article. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to prescribe any particular form of first sentence, but it should not be assumed that readers understand that the genus is part of the species name, nor should readers have to go to the infobox for any information that a general reader might want and that can easily be put in the text (as opposed to technical classification numbers etc). Johnbod (talk) 00:49, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, I was objecting to mandating a genus link in the first sentence of a species article which was the opening proposition of this discussion, not precluding a link elsewhere in the article text.--Melburnian (talk) 01:37, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Modified proposal -

"If possible, the lead first sentence should contain descriptive information in plain English that informs a general reader about the plant, e.g., growth form (tree, shrub, annual), size, flower colors, where it naturally grows, etc. Although stating what the genus is may seem redundant, given it is already in the article title, the genus and family should be overtly stated in the lead first paragraph, with a link to both the term "genus" and the term "family", so that readers unfamiliar with these concepts, or who may have learned them but do not readily recall what they learned, can quickly link to them - e.g., "It is in the Helianthus genus of the sunflower family (Asteraceae)."

. FloraWilde (talk) 03:05, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know that the focus was on species pages, but my previous comment applies to any sort of page.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 09:27, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Clicking the note at the end of that statement clarifies that the restriction presumes a circular redirect. When the link goes to another page, the circular redundancy doesn't exist. If the link only uses part of the reiterated title, it is splitting the boldface reiteration between two colors that is cautioned against. HTML gives us a possible solution using <span> tags. Consider this example where only the genus is linked: Bambusa oldhamii. Perhaps this approach could quell the concern raised when a term requires only a partial link.—John Cline (talk) 07:55, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Partial links which don't show up as links because the colour is changed to black are surely an extremely bad idea – how is the reader supposed to know there is a link? I'm always and everywhere strongly opposed to linking part of a binomial. (The worst is where the genus and specific epithet are separately linked, like this: [[Fooia]] [[Fooia barii|barii]] which you occasionally come across.) Peter coxhead (talk) 16:45, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Peter coxhead as to no invisible black links, but give John Cline an "A" for HTML skills. Re my modified proposal, in trying to implement it, I found that it is going to take some getting used to, because it feels like redundancy or stating the obvious. But it is not, for those not already handy with "genus". FloraWilde (talk) 16:52, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Acacia pycnantha

Australia's floral emblem is at FAC - Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Acacia pycnantha/archive1 - any input from botanists would be welcome...cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty quiet there.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are the expression "lichenized fungus" and "lichen" synonymous?

The answer may seem obvious at first, but reliable sources are not consistent. Please contribute to the discussion here. 23:46, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Please help write taxobox and fit article into plant article template, for the "genus with scare quotes" - Dendriscocaulon

Resolved

Please help adding a taxobox and with a WP:BOLD rewrite of the Dendriscocaulon article . FloraWilde (talk) 14:41, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Resolved per article talk page. Thanks. FloraWilde (talk) 02:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A euphorb by any other name ...

I have stumbled across a vexing nomenclatural mess that I cannot solve using the on-line resources I have available. I am hoping someone with better literature as her/his disposal might be able to help. Problem concerns what the correct name is for a certain plant. WCSPF calls it "Aparisthmium cordatum." Tropicos, however, says that the genus name Aparisthmium is an illegitimate superfluous name. That means that the author who coined the name listed another name as synonym, thus voiding his own name. I do hope that he got paid for his work anyway. Tropicos says the plant should be in the genus Conceveibum A. Rich. ex A. Juss., and the species should be Conceveiba cordata A. Juss. But wait! Notice the different endings on these two genus names: "-bum" vs "-ba." There is another genus called Conceveiba Aubl. 1775, not the same thing as Conceveibum A.Rich. ex A.Juss. 1824. Are you confused? I am. What do I call this thing?Joseph Laferriere (talk) 22:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't had time to do all the digging, but an 1824 publication in Linnaea (see biodiversitylibrary.org) gives Conceveibum Bl. (not A.Rich.) as a synonym. IPNI ascribes Aparisthmium is Endl. (1840). My guess is that Endlicher validated an earlier name, and there's something wrong with Conceveibum Bl. (but there wasn't much time between Conceveibum A.Rich. and Aparisthmium Garcke & Schlect.) Lavateraguy (talk) 06:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx. The only explanation that makes any sense to me is that someone decided that Conceveibum was a spelling variation on the earlier Conceveiba. But I have not seen anyone say this.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 08:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ignore the comment about 1824 (should be 1826); I've been mislead by biodiversitylibrary.org - there seems to be an error in the date of publication column. The Linnaea paper is from 1856, and refers to Endlicher as well as Blume. Garcke and Schletchendal (Linnaea) refer to Blume, but Blume refers to A.Richard.
The source of the claim that Aparisthmium is illegitimate is here. Lavateraguy (talk) 18:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Notice that in IPNI, "Conceveibum Rich. ex A.Juss., Euphorb. Gen. 42 (1824). [21 Feb 1824]" is the only occurrence of the genus name Conceveibum – there are no species names. On the other hand there's both a genus and a long list of species if you search for genus=Conceveiba. It does make it look as though "Conceveibum" could have been an orthographic error in a list of Euphorbiaceae genera. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:00, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx. Someone else sent me some files off-list that address the issue. I have not had time to examine them today but hope to get to them tomorrow. By the way, I found another error apparently made in 1820 and passed down ever since. This involves a South African plant citing a Mexican plant as basionym.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 02:05, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, very nice discussion of this at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26033736/page%2082%20only.pdf . It all boils down to the question of whether the author who published the name Conceveibum in 1824 intended this as a variant spelling of Conceveiba or just happened to pick a similar name. So we need the services of a certain gentleman who travels in a blue British police box to go ask him. Or Aparisthmium can be declared a conserved name, which is what was proposed in this 1994 publication. Does anyone know the outcome of that proposal?Joseph Laferriere (talk) 18:01, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the conservation proposal wasn't properly published; there is no listing for Aparisthmium at Proposals and Disposals. The authors may have thought they had done what was necessary, but it seems that without a publication in the journal Taxon, justifying the proposal, it would not have succeeded. 1994 was when the first set of guidelines about making such proposals was published, and perhaps the authors never saw that. Nicolson, D.H.; Greuter, W. (1994). "Guidelines for proposals to conserve or reject names". Taxon. 43 (1): 109–112.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) says "When Taxon was initiated in 1951 it was, among other things, to provide a single place for (previously scattered) proposals of nomina conservanda. Yet so far no guidance on how to write such proposals has been provided, and although certain traditions have built up through the years the format and especially the length of proposals have greatly varied." Joseph, I would like to propose your name as a botanist who might like to undertake publishing such a proposal . Such proposals are all about how disruptive it would be to horticulture and other industries to change the name of a plant, and perhaps sorting out wikipedia could count as a consideration nowadays. (You'd need the latest guidelines, which are here.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sminthopsis84 Wow. I am honored by the suggestion. Let me think about it. I did make a proposal of that sort years ago. Problem now is that I no longer have access to an old-fashioned paper library, so I have to rely on what is on-line.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 02:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Peter coxhead Sminthopsis84 - I am reminded of a short note I saw in a journal many years ago. It was by a prominent and respected botanist whom I would prefer not to name here. Title (TITLE!!!!) of the note was "How absurd can a taxonomic proposal get?" Another botanist had published a conservation/rejection proposal for a generic name. In his arguments, he made the statement "And, besides, if this proposal is not accepted, several recombinations will be required." (A recombination is a short state formally moving a taxon from one genus to another, or else changing its rank, e.g. from variety to species). This note by this prominent botanist went on at some length on how inappropriate it was to use that as justification for such a proposal. Then he said "So, if several recombination statements are required, here they are:" and proceeded to make the formal recombination statements right then and there.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 11:28, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've seen some conservation proposals that go to considerable lengths to demonstrate that it is the best way, that the number of new combinations required would be huge or that angry horticulturists would be brandishing those dangerous tools that they use in their trade. Another advantage of making new combinations rather than a conservation proposal is that the paper could be published just about anywhere, and wouldn't have to wait in the queue for Taxon, which gets rather clogged for a couple of years and then rapidly disgorges just before each International Botanical Congress. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 13:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for expert review of an edit re holobiont theory of lichens

Is there anyone anyone with expertise on the holobiont theory of lichens who can review this edit, and verify that I correctly summarized the content of the four cited sources? FloraWilde (talk) 19:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone explain why reddish leaves might protect from intense solar radiation?

Resolved

I made this edit because it is what the RS said, "Many Sierra Nevada alpine plants have reddish or whitish leaves to protect them from damage from intense ultraviolet radiation in the alpine zone". It is plausible that if we could see UV, then UV-colored leaves would indicate protection from UV since it is reflected, but it is not clear why reddish leaves, or even whitish leaves, would. Can anyone explain why reddish leaves might protect from intense solar radiation? What about whitish leaves? FloraWilde (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

They protect from UV radiation by absorbing the UV radiation, rather than reflecting it. By absorbing the UV radiation, and transmitting the visible light, they prevent UV from reaching sensitive molecules like DNA, but allow visible light to reach molecules that use it for energy.AioftheStorm (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, talk. I presume that the UV absorbing anthocyanins are what make these particular plants red, or that it carotenoids and betalains, they similarly absorb UV. I assumed whatever is in the white reflects, not absorbs UV, like the white leaf coating here, but after your answer, I am withholding that assumption, too. FloraWilde (talk) 00:18, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Question about redirect templates

On the project page are instructions about templates to include in redirects. Which include:

Since I'm not sure of the uses that these categorizations are put to, I don't know what to do about redirects for synonyms. Linum crepitans, Linum humile, and Linum indehiscens as synonyms of Linum usitatissimum could redirect to Flax, but it is a different situation from the Pseudotsuga menziesii example. Should redirects from these synonyms include the R from scientific name template? Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:36, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is an example of one of the many problems created by using English names as article titles. In an ideal world, the synonyms would redirect to the accepted name which would redirect to the English name. But we can't have double redirects in Wikipedia. The usual approach seems to be to treat these as redirects from a scientific name (which they are), i.e. add {{R from scientific name|plant}}. I suppose there could, in principle, be another redirect template and associated category to deal with redirects from taxonomic synonyms to vernacular names, but I doubt that it's worthwhile. (I'm not really convinced of the need for the R templates in the first place – they seem to be a product of WP:WikiProject Redirect – but if the categories like Category:Redirects from scientific names are to be of any use to us here they need to be broken down by type of organism.) Peter coxhead (talk) 16:51, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder if it would be best to put in the redirects without a template, because there could be quite a lot of these, such as the various Medicago species that would redirect to Alfalfa. I'm guessing that it might not be helpful to have them clutter Category:Redirects from scientific names of plants if that list could be used in statements about how many plant species pages have a common name as a title. If we decide to omit the template, I'd like to note the decision on the project page, to prevent people becoming inspired to add the templates. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 14:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My feeling on this is that in the case of an non-accepted taxonomic synonym, it should be redirected to the same place that the accepted synonym is redirected. But in the case of two or more accepted species having the same common name, each should have its own page, each with a link to the common name page, not a full redirect.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 16:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Sminthopsis84: my understanding – which may be wrong – is that WikiProject Redirect really wants all redirects put into "maintenance categories"; see the long list at Wikipedia:Template messages/Redirect pages. Certainly when I've not added an "R" template in the past, one has later appeared, although I haven't usually checked who added it and I try not to keep redirects on my watch list. I don't quite understand this bit of your comment: such as the various Medicago species that would redirect to Alfalfa. Only one accepted species name would redirect to alfalfa, surely? (Which is Joseph's point, I think.) Peter coxhead (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, what I meant was that Medicago sativa is at Alfalfa, but has synonyms Medicago afganica, Medicago alaschanica, Medicago asiatica subsp. sinensis … that could redirect to Alfalfa, and then the number of redirects that would inflate the category is not small, and I'm sure there are quite a lot more that could be found for the unalterably common-name-titled plant articles. Ideally, Alfalfa would be called Medicago sativa and the synonyms would be redirecting there, with the template {{R from alternative scientific name|plant}}. So perhaps we need a new template (I'm in the happy position of being able to state with a smile () that I am not a template editor). Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:52, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, right. See further below. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If I add another row to the table at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Plants#R templates for redirects not involving monotypic taxa, it perhaps clarifies the issue:

To
Accepted scientific name English/vernacular name
From Accepted scientific name — {{R from scientific name|plant}}
Alternative scientific name {{R from alternative scientific name|plant}} {{R from alternative scientific name|plant}} ?
{{R from scientific name|plant}} ?
English/vernacular name {{R to scientific name|plant}} (not relevant here)

Rather than use one of the two possible existing templates, there could be a new template in the shaded cell (it would have to be called something like "R from alternative scientific name to vernacular name" with a corresponding category), but would it be worthwhile? I'd like to see some more views on this. (It would also need to be put to other relevant WikiProjects; WP:WikiProject Tree of Life should be the forum but seems inactive at present.) Peter coxhead (talk) 18:39, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As a very rough estimate of how many redirects would be involved, I looked at and counted the synonyms on:
Alfalfa 23
Flax 3
Fraser fir 4
Musk strawberry 1
Okra 9
Rusian knapweed 11
Just looking at these involved updating or adding most of the synonym lists, so a complete survey would involve adding a lot of synonyms without redirects, which I think is disruptive. This quick look convinced me not to proceed until I'm sure of whether and how to add redirects. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm responsible for placing probably 90% of the redirects now found in Category:Redirects from scientific names of plants. It was very much my intention that the category should be able to function as a "list [which] could be used in statements about how many plant species [and genus] pages have a common name as a title" (I'm not so interested in the pages where a cultivar group or a hybrid has a common name for a title; clearly nobody is going to suggest that boysenberry should be titled with the scientific name Rubus ursinus × R. idaeus). I played around with a couple different ways of creating said list before arriving on the redirect templates. The most straight-forward way, directly categorizing the common name titled articles probably wouldn't fly; a category on "Maori names for plants" was deleted as it was about an aspect of the article title (apparently not appropriate for a category), rather than a defining characteristic of the article subject. That said, I really don't want to see the category cluttered with dozens of obscure synonyms for Medicago sativa. For the most part, Category:Redirects from scientific names of plants is now a comprehensive list of our common name titled species and genus pages (as the targets of the categorized redirects), although it does have a few hybrids, and a few cases where there are two redirects to the same common name whether because of monotypy or synonymy (I'm not too worried about having both Malus pumila and Malus domestica listed, as there is an outstanding conservation proposal for M. domestica; similarly, Lycopersicon esculentum continues to enjoy currency alongside Solanum lycopersicum as a scientific name for tomatoes).

There are another 48 redirects that I know of which should go into the category eventually (see User:Plantdrew/sandbox#Single_edit_scientific_name_redirects_not_categorized, but otherwise, Category:Redirects to scientific names of plants give us a very good handle on which articles have common name titles. There seem to be less than 400, out of more than 40,000+ plant articles. In spite of common name titles being 1% of the total, almost all of our highly viewed articles (Wikipedia:WikiProject_Plants/Popular_pages)are titled by common name. The presence of Salvia hispanica (#49 most viewed, in spite of the fact that the most likely search term, "chia" is a SIA) shows that readers can still find articles even with scientific name titles (and they're not scared off by our "elitist" use of scientific names). WP:FLORA works!

Getting back on topic, we either need another template for scientific synonyms redirecting to common names, or we could just skip categorizing them for now (with tens of thousands of uncategorized synonym redirects, there's no need to push for categorizing the handful that point to a common name, but I do realize there's no guarantee that somebody won't come along and categorize them anyway). Plantdrew (talk) 21:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's your last comment that bothers me. (I recently spent some time sorting out plant categories, only to have another editor come along with a different philosophy on categorization and effectively undo much of my work.) I'd prefer to have clearly documented guidance on what should in principle be done, even if no-one actually does it at present.
What would you call the template for alternative scientific names redirecting to vernacular names? (I suggest not using "common names"; this just provides ammunition for those who believe that scientific names aren't WP:COMMONNAMEs and that WP:NCFLORA is wrong.) Peter coxhead (talk) 22:10, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: I see that {{R to vernacular name}} is available – {{R from vernacular name}} is a redirect to {{R to scientific name}} – but it's not a self-explanatory title and would be liable to be used for redirects from accepted scientific names to vernacular names. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Would someone please explain the purpose of putting redirect pages into categories? Whom does this benefit? One problem is the sheer number of synonyms involved. Estimates of the number of species of flowing plants range from 250,000 to 400,000. Most of them have synonyms, usually only a few but for widespread plants sometimes several dozen. I am guessing here, but the total number of synonyms at the species level must be a few million. Many of these are old names that have not been used for centuries. I have adopted the habit myself that I shall create a redirect page for every generic name I come across, but not for specific names unless there seems to be a good likelihood that someone might search for the name on the internet.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 02:26, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Joseph Laferriere: you're making two different points here.
  1. Should we have redirects for every synonym regardless of its usage? I think the clear answer is "no"; they are not of interest or value to readers of a general encyclopedia.
  2. Why should those redirects that are created be categorized? My answer is that the categories are, as stated at Category:Redirects from scientific names of plants for example, purely for administrative purposes. They aren't intended for readers (who anyway will almost never see them since the redirect will automatically go to the target article). They are useful or potentially useful for members of this project. For example, we can check whether the use of vernacular names as article titles is in accord with WP:NCFLORA. Thus looking at Category:Redirects from scientific names of plants I was struck by Lawsonia (plant) which redirects to Henna. Should it? (Not to be discussed here!!)
Peter coxhead (talk) 09:23, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Peter coxhead - Thanx. I concur.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 10:39, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Replying to Peter coxhead: {{R to vernacular name}} could work perhaps. It's concise, but that also means it not precise. Just before I first replied on this thread, I moved a bunch of redirects that had been misplaced by a well-meaning editor from "Redirects from scientific names of plants" to the monotypic and alternative scientific name template categories. Redirects from/to monotypic taxa and taxonomic synonyms technically are "redirects from scientific names", but they aren't redirecting to vernacular names as {{R from scientific name}} describes. However well documented the use of redirect templates ends up, it is a complicated subject, and people will end up miscategorizing redirects.
Properly categorizing multiple synonymous scientific name redirects to vernacular names is a pretty trivial concern for plant editors; we have hardly any articles at vernacular names. If there is to be a template for this class of redirects, it will have much broader potential application for animals, which are more often titled by vernacular names. Maybe we should bring this up at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Animals and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of Life? Plantdrew (talk) 05:43, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, although WikiProject Tree of Life posts don't seem to get much response at present. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:34, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Brainstorming another possibility. This would be one to discuss at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Redirect, and probably a complicated bit of work for a template editor. I wonder if there could be a pseudo-double redirect template. Maybe it would use a parameter to call another redirect template in a nested fashion, or maybe it would involve a parameter that is the preferred redirect target (as if double redirects to that target were allowed), or maybe it would inolve both parameters. The template could display a message on Medicago afganica something like "This is an [REDIRECT TEMPLATE FROM PARAMETER (in this case, alternative scientific name)] for [DOUBLE REDIRECT TITLE FROM PARAMETER (in this case, Medicago sativa)]". Details of the displayed message and template functionality would need refinement if this approach is worth pursuing.
This approach might have some use outside of organismal nomenclature. For example, lots of pop culture media franchises have the names of minor characters redirecting to a list article. If those characters have alternative names/nicknames, pseudo-double redirects might be useful. For example, Anikin Skywalker redirects to Darth Vader, but it's a misspelling of the redirect Anakin Skywalker. Tagging Anikin with "redirect from misspelling" would be misleading as Darth Vader is a totally different term, not the correct spelling. Plantdrew (talk) 18:16, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If I understand correctly, your idea is that the target of the redirect should show, instead of "(Redirected from REDIRECT-NAME)" a more complex message. In principle this seems a good idea to me, but I'm pretty certain that the message that appears when a target is reached via a redirect is generated by the MediaWiki software; I don't know any way to alter this via the template language. So it would be an issue to be raised at a much higher level than the Redirect WikiProject. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:59, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oh gosh no. I'm really thinking of something that might be appropriate at the Redirect Project level, I guess I'm not just not very aware of which displayed messages come from which code. I'm looking for something where "Anikin Skywalker" could be tagged as a misspelling, while continuing to redirect to "Darth Vader", and "Medicago afganica" would be tagged as an alternative scientific name, but would redirect to "Alfalfa". We could make {{R from alternative scientific name to vernacular name}} and which would cover the concern of this thread, but it really seems like there's a broader issue with cases where MediaWiki's disallowal of double redirects makes the redirect categorization complicated. Category intersection templates like my previous redlink or {{R from misspellings of alternative names for fictional characters}} for Anikin are possible, but there are a massive amount of potnential permutations of category intersections. Perhaps some kind of master template could handle all permutations with what should be double redirects. I'll bring it over to WikiProject Redirect though. Plantdrew (talk)
Okay, wait until you hear this one. I just discovered a page with the common name as the name of the page. The author in the text gave a scientific name. S/he then said that this species was in a monotypic genus, then listed 8 synonymic scientific names. I did a search in the trusty World Checklist to make sure this was accurate. No. The genus is not monotypic, and most of the names he listed as synonyms were not synonyms of the name s/he was using. Yet s/he had made redirect pages directing the genus name and all the alleged synonyms to the common name page. Eeee, gads. I went through and unredirected everything.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 22:33, 5 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Caloplaca albovariegata called variegated ORANGE lichen?

Why is Caloplaca albovariegata commonly called variegated ORANGE lichen?[1] Is some commonly observable feature ever close to being orange? FloraWilde (talk) 23:22, 9 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that "orange lichen" is the supposed "common" name for every species of Caloplaca; this is then the variegated species of Caloplaca. USDA PLANTS (http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=CALOP7 see here) may be the original source of this "common" nomenclature on the internet. Plantdrew (talk) 01:16, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. FloraWilde (talk) 12:57, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aldrovanda

Question for you good people. I found a genus page for Aldrovanda, which apparently has one living species and several long-extinct species known only from fossils. I placed it in a "monotypic" category as it has only one non-fossil species. Someone reverted this and deleted the category, saying it is not monotypic because of the existence of the fossil species. Who is correct about this? The way I see it, every genus on Earth has extinct species somewhere in the history of the planet, although only a few will have left any fossils good enough to identify. Such is the nature of how fossils are made. Joseph Laferriere (talk) 09:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have a feeling we've discussed this before, but I can't find it in the archives in a quick search. Personally if the other species are long-extinct I'd treat it as monotypic, i.e. interpret "monotypic" for our purposes to mean "has only one extant or recently extinct member". I've never been sure why we have so many categories for monotypic taxa in the first place, and the concept really makes no sense in paleobotany (is Aglaophyton monotypic because the only species described so far is A. major?). Peter coxhead (talk) 13:39, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A quick clarification -- the category was not deleted, just removed from the page. I did that because, like Peter, I remembered seeing a discussion here about that but thought the conclusion was the opposite. Joseph may very well be correct that the presence of long extinct lineages that are unnamed make every taxon non-monotypic, thus requiring a different interpretation of the term. But here we actually have named extinct taxa. No editor has yet placed a monotypic category on the article for the genus Ginkgo. And yet again, the application of the term "monotypic" or "monospecific" may be temporary as even new extant species are discovered or the sole species is split apart. Rkitko (talk) 13:54, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict, and Rkitko brought up the example I was discussing) Peter, the discussion you're thinking of might have been on the Tree of Life page, here, but nothing really got resolved. I'm happy to call Ginkgo monotypic in spite of multiple fossil species (and if you google "ginkgo" and "monotypic", you'll see thaat plenty of other people use this definition of monotypy). As a reader browsing the monotypic category, I'd be interested in taxa with one living species, and I'd want to see Ginkgo included. As an editor, monotypic categories have a maintenance function, and I wouldn't want to see Ginkgo listed (it's split into separate genus and species articles with good reason). I'm not sure what the best resolution is. Plantdrew (talk) 14:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Mea culpa re imprecise wording. I said "deleted the category" when I meant "deleted the category link from the page." Just trying to save a bit of time. The term "monotypic" is horribly inaccurate and misleading, as a genus may have only one recognized species yet have types for synonyms, subspecies, etc. But there is a difference between species known only from fossils vs those known from old herbarium specimens. I have seen numerous 19th-Century names of taxa not seen in the wild since they were described. Those I simply include in the species list with a dagger (†) in front of the name. The question of whether to include the name in the categories has nothing to do with the biology, everything to do with the question of the purpose of the categories.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 14:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As an editor of fossil plant and insect taxa pages, I would fall into the category of editors that object to monotypic being used for taxa that have more then one described daughter taxa. The term monotypic is used in paleontology literature only when there is not a sister taxon, and rarely have I seen it used for a taxon simply if there is only one living taxon.--Kevmin § 02:38, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Kev Thanx. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the way I read your definition, it seems to exclude any daughter taxon with synonyms or granddaughter taxa. In other words, a genus with one species would not be monotypic if that one species had heterotypic synonyms or subspecies. Is that correct?Joseph Laferriere (talk) 18:42, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not responding for Kevmin, but it does raise the question of what precisely "monotypic" means. The Kew Plant Glossary says "(of genera) containing only one species ... (of family) containing only one genus", i.e. it seems to define "monotypic" to mean "with only one taxon at the principal rank immediately below". So a genus with only one species that has subspecies is monotypic because it is monospecific; a family with only one genus that has more than one species is monotypic because it is monogeneric. However I don't know if this is a universally accepted definition. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:34, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Correct Peter, that is the definition as I have seen it in use. One taxon having only one immediate daughter taxon. For example, when first described Trochodendron was considered monotypic having only one species Trochodendron aralioides, with the description of multiple extinct species, such as †T. nastae and †T. drachuckii, the genus is not monotypic. Even so Trochodendraceae was still consisdered monotypic, only containing the one genus. With the description of two form genera, Nordenskioldia and Zizyphoides, plus the synonymizing of Tetracentraceae, the family is no longer monotypic, however the order Trochodendrales is still monotypic, with only one family. --Kevmin § 20:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. The term appears in the code of nomenclature, but that is only because of a special case, when describing a genus and the only species it contains all at once, using a single description. The glossary states "monotypic genus: A genus for which a single binomial is validly published (Art. 38.6) (see also unispecific)." The code therefore is no guide to general usage, even though there would seem to be a connection to Type (biology). I believe that is because it is actually connected to the older meaning of type, meaning the circumscription of a taxon. I agree that monotypic means with only one daughter taxon, living or otherwise. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 21:50, 11 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Thanx for the clarification. Joseph Laferriere (talk) 08:31, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can a "coalesced" lichen have multiple fungal genes in a single lichen "organism"?

Xanthoria is described as "irregularly coalescing". Are there cases here, or in other lichen species, where the "coalescing" involves fungi in the same species, but with different DNA, coexisting in a single lichen "organism"? (This is a different question from a that of a lichenized fungal species taking over the algae from another, e.g. "[Verrucaria bernardinensis is the pale-colored lichen. It is growing out of the brown lichen, Staurothele monicae. Verrucaria bernardinensis steals the green algae from the brown lichen."[2]) FloraWilde (talk) 15:52, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is the standard case of fungal reproduction I learned in school. The genetically distinct products of two different germinated spores come together and form the fruiting body. I either didn't learn about, or had forgotten about homothallic (as opposed to heterothallic) fungi, which are self-fertile. It seems that lichens can be either homo- or hetero-thallic, though I wouldn't be surprised if homothally is more common in lichens than in non-lichenized fungi. Plantdrew (talk) 23:28, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Guava

Advice, please, on the Guava page. The genus name, Psidium, redirects to the common name page. It seems to me that the genus with taxonomic info and a list of species should be on a separate page. I can handle this, but I wanted to check with you good people to be sure that this should be done.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 12:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • agree - Psidium should not redirect to common name page guava. The hat note on the guava article says as much "this article is about the fruit", which implies it is not about the genus. Psidium should be its own separate page, with taxonomic info and a list of species, as well as other content standard to wiki articles on plant genera. FloraWilde (talk) 13:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So you're going for separate articles on Psidium and guava? Do check out Psidium guajava as well for content that might belong in the guava article. I'm not a big fan of having separate article on fruits and the plants that bear them, but it might be the best approach here. The problem is figuring out what content goes in what article. I.e., do cultivars of P. guajava belong in the article on the species, the article on the fruit, or in both articles? Plantdrew (talk) 16:14, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanx for the suggestions. I just finished listing 96 species on the genus page, and need to take a short break before looking at the others. Apparently, P. guajava is not the only cultivated species, further complicating the matter. But the list of the 96 species certainly goes on the genus page.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Masterwort move request

Please see Talk:Masterwort#Requested_moves to comment on a multiple move request. The vernacular names Masterwort, Spurge Olive and Milk Parsley may refer to multiple plants and it is proposed to move these articles to scientific name titles. Plantdrew (talk) 16:48, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Great masterwort listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Great masterwort. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. 67.70.35.44 (talk) 01:34, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

generic synonyms

I have seen something on several pages that conflict with established botanical practice. The Asteraceae pages in particular seem riddled with this problem. I just thought I would make sure everyone is up to speed on this, so that you can recognize the error if you should come across it. I estimate that for me to go through the entire Asteraceae correcting this problem would take 14.3 years. Issue is generic synonyms. Let me say for example that we have a plant called Planta hypothetica. There are other species in the genus: P. realistica, P. hallucinogenica, P. somnia, etc. You decide that P. hypothetica does not belong in the genus Planta, so you create a monotypic genus Greenthingia. Thus the plant now becomes Greenthingia hypothetica. In creating a genus page for the genus Greenthingia, you list Planta as a synonym for Greenthingia on the grounds that the species now called Greenthingia hypothetica was formerly in Planta. No. This is bass-ackwards. To say that Planta is a synonym of Greenthingia is to say that Planta is no longer recognized as a distinct genus, and the type species of Planta is now included in Greenthingia. If you were to merge the two genera back together, so that the type of Greenthingia reverts to being in Planta, then Greenthingia gets listed as a synonym of Planta.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Suppose I say that Planta pro parte is a synonym of Greenthingia. In my understanding of the taxonomic use of "pro parte" this means that part of Planta is synonymous with Greenthingia – in your example just one species, but it could be more (we could be a little more precise and say Planta pro minore parte). For a real example of this usage see here: Pectis pro parte is a synonym of Hydropectis because some species have been taken out of Pectis and placed in Hydropectis. So is the only problem that "pro parte" is missing? Of course we could say that pro parte synonyms should not be included (many databases do exclude them – e.g. this one). Peter coxhead (talk) 19:09, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Peter coxhead That's the old-fashioned (i.e. 19th Century) way of doing it, from before they invited the concept of type species. The generic name follows the type species.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 20:35, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly a bot could be of assistance here. Look for instances where there is a genus article for a genus listed in a taxobox in a genus article as a synonym. Lavateraguy (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That might work, if you can rig it so that the bot alerts a human to investigate but does not make any changes itself. There are thousands of homonyms lurking around that get listed in taxoboxes while their namesakes are recognized generaJoseph Laferriere (talk) 23:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Plus there are articles on "historically recognized taxa" so the existence of a genus article does not show that it is an accepted genus. Peter coxhead (talk) 07:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Joseph Laferriere: in your response to me above you inadvertently illustrate my underlying point. There's no such thing as a "type species" in the ICN; the term appears nowhere in the Code. The type of a genus is the type of the species (see Article 10). Nevertheless the term "type species" is widely used by botanists (and indeed is used in some taxoboxes). Similarly "pro parte" synonyms are not defined in the Code, but nevertheless the term is still in use, old-fashioned or not. (For species it's very easy to find lists including p.p. synonyms; here is one from a source I've used in Wikipedia articles.) So for me the question is why the one is acceptable but not the other; it can't be a simple question of the terminology used in the Code.
By the way, presumably Synonym (taxonomy)#Other usage is wrong in your view? Peter coxhead (talk) 07:31, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just now, I reread Article 7 of the ICN. You are correct that the phrase "type species" does not occur there, but only because they generalize the wording so that it covers taxa at every level. It does say "A nomenclatural type (typus) is that element to which the name of a taxon is permanently attached." Question for us here is not what the ICN says or what 21st-Century botanists do, but how we should handle this on Wikipedia. Certainly it is appropriate to inform the reader that the species contained in one genus were formerly called by some other name. But simply listing the old name in the taxobox without qualifications is misleading. If you want to use the "pro parte" option, fine.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 10:59, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Re your comments on "type species" and Article 7.2, see "element" in the Glossary. This appears to support the concept of a "type species" since "element" is said to be "applied to a species name considered as the full equivalent of its type for the purposes of designation or citation of the type of a name of a genus", but it then cites 10.1 which, as I pointed out above, says something different. What this shows, I think, is that the Code is confusing (if not confused).
I'm not personally pushing for the use of "pro parte" synonyms. I haven't added them to articles I've created or substantially edited (so far as I recall). I'd probably agree that (normally) they shouldn't appear in taxoboxes. If they do, I certainly agree that "pro parte" (or "p.p." with a wikilink) is essential.
What we definitely should do is to add something about "pro parte" synonyms to the project page at WP:Plants#"Synonyms" of scientific names. We're very good in this project at discussing issues on this talk page and not recording a decision to guide us in the future. Peter coxhead (talk) 18:17, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly the ICN is confusing. Such would be true of any rule book written by committee then revised by another committee, then revised again by yet another committee ... My preference on this "pro parte" problem is to leave it out of the taxobox entirely. In the text, you can say "This was formerly considered part of a certain other genus," if and only if the name was done so recently that people are still using books containing the old names. The other problem with "pro parte" is that it is Latin, which many people cannot read. That is especially true on this side of "The Pond." "In part" works fine.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 22:11, 23 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Any thoughts on what to do with redirects for synonymized genera that were monotypic? Hermodactylus is now treated as a synonym of Iris, but if somebody is searching for Hermodactylus, they'll find more relevant information at Iris tuberosa than at Iris (plant). Should Hermodactylus redirect to the genus or the species? Plantdrew (talk) 18:46, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To the species, it seems to me – this is where the information is. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:01, 29 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I would agree, but some of those irises, such as Hermodactyloides are very tangled, so I think it could be a challenge to work out which ones are monotypic. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

RSN Posting

There is a question about the reliability of a source regarding plants (www.plantvillage.com) on WP:RSN here, members of this wikiproject may be helpful with regards to their expertise in this area. Thanks! Yobol (talk) 20:18, 28 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsexual speciation

Does anyone know any sources discussing the mechanism of for "Some lichens have lost the ability to reproduce sexually, yet continue to speciate"[3]? FloraWilde (talk) 12:50, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't focus on the mechanisms, but this provides a case for speciation within an asexual Lepraria clade. Note the parallel with the asexual bdelloid rotifers. Lavateraguy (talk) 15:54, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There is a more recent study but it's paywalled. Lavateraguy (talk) 16:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Plants have the same problem. Many of them reproduce asexually yet continue to evolve. As to whether or not these new forms should be called species depends on your definition of the word.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 10:31, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"प्रत्यक्श्रेणी-tʃən", and other such material found in our plant articles

Many of our English language plant articles start of with characters that few English speakers have ever seen. "प्रत्यक्श्रेणी-tʃən" is a combination of the characters found at the beginning of two articles, Jatropha curcas and lichen. (All I learned in college was that "ʃ" is read "integral of", and "ə" is read "such that", otherwise the symbols are unintelligible to me.) There seems to be a consensus to include such characters in all articles at Wiki, by good-faith special-universal-character-pronunciation-technocrats at the Wiki-pronunciation division of MOS. Few at Wiki:PLANT likely ever participated in forming this consensus. That consensus is inconsistent with the more basic consensus at MOS to use plain English, and is inconsistent with Wikipedia being accessible to English language speakers. I propose adding to the plant article templete:

"Any non-standard characters, such as for pronunciation, should not appear in the lead, so that the lead is accessible to general readers."

FloraWilde (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation is a problem for a lot of people, especially in a language with as confused and unphonetic an orthography as English has. Giving the obvious ones seems a straightforward thing to do. They should be in a coherent style and should be well referenced (how do you pronounce lichen? I say something akin to 'likken', not included in the article). I'm sure you realise that "ʃ" and "ə" are phonetic symbols here. My Concise Oxford English dictionary indicates pronunciation by including various obscure superscripts over or after the characters. This is never part of the word in actual use, and the user needs to ignore these when finding the word. I imagine many users will find these essential. I agree there is no reason to include names in other languages in the lead without good reason, which there does not seem to be for Jatropha. Imc (talk) 13:35, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Imc: pronouncing "lichen" as /ˈlɪkən/ is interesting (to me anyway!). I wonder if it's a pronunciation shared by others – I haven't yet found it in a dictionary. If it can be sourced it should, of course, be added to the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting, Jatropha has "The name is derived from the Greek words ἰατρός (iatros), meaning "physician," and τροφή (trophe), meaning "nutrition,"", and I've recently seen the Greek letters being added to various pages. Perhaps the solution in that sort of situation is to move etymology out of the lead to a special section. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 16:59, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are two issues here: pronunciation guides and common names of species in other languages. I see no problem with the pronunciation guides as found in lichen, but the foreign language common names are a different beast. The foreign language common names are arguably useful and important, but probably should not be in the first sentence of an article, as is the case with Jatropha curcas. We also have to ask ourselves how important is that foreign language name -- is the plant native to that area? Mimosa pudica is constantly picking up new foreign language names in the article because of its status as a worldwide weed, but I usually revert them as it's not the purpose of en.wiki to chronicle all 20 foreign language common names it has been given; that's what interwiki links are for. Rkitko (talk) 22:01, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree entirely with Rkitko; these are two quite distinct issues. (1) Rightly or wrongly (rightly in my view) the use of the IPA is specifically mandated at MOS:IPA so it is required to be used if pronunciation is to be given. There is no better way of indicating pronunciation – re-spelling only works for speakers of the same dialect so is not helpful in an international encyclopedia. The obvious place to give the pronunciation of the article's title is at the start, just as a dictionary would. (2) There's a long list of non-English names towards the end of Jatropha curcas – there's absolutely no reason for a name written in Devanagari to appear at the very start of the article and I've removed it. Peter coxhead (talk) 23:23, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you are discussing the pronunciation of scientific names, there is no standard. How you pronounce it depends on who taught you how to pronounce it. Americans tend to anglicize the names, Mexicans hispanicize them, etc. And I have never heard anyone from any country pronounce the so-called Latin names the way that Pliny the Elder would have pronounced them.Joseph Laferriere (talk) 06:31, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Monocot article

Plant articles on Wikipedia have been upgraded to the latest in evolutionary knowledge except for one of the most important articles. Plants that were once considered dicotyledons link to families, orders, and appropriate unranked clades from APG3, but plants that were considered monocotyledons link to an article about the old concept monocotyledon (as the other half of "monocots and dicots") instead of to the monocot clade. There are articles based on APG3 about all of the unranked clades, except for the monocot clade. Why is such a major clade reduced to its old concept? Even if the morphologies and many of the relationships are sound, compared to the dissolution of the dicots, there should be an article on every unranked APG3 clade. The text of the article that appears in my cell phone includes only one line about the monocot clade, "The APG III system recognises a clade called "monocots" but does not assign it to a taxonomic rank." The full article compares APG3 and other systems, after more interesting information like, "The name monocotyledons is derived from the traditional botanical name "Monocotyledones," and "From a diagnostic point of view the number of cotyledons is neither a particularly useful (as they are only present for a very short period in a plant's life), nor completely reliable characteristic."

This article is very bad. It is hard to improve it because there should be an article about the monocot clade, which this article is attempting to be after a bad start as the monocotyledons article. This is not about that monocotyledons are monocots; it's about helping someone who can't make sense of the monocot clade from this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.250.153.211 (talk) 03:34, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is a poor article, I agree. This edit way back in March 2011 added material apparently automatically translated from the Spanish article which has never since been properly copy-edited or had its references sorted out.
On the other hand, unlike dicots, historical monocots and modern monocots are the same taxon, so the content is actually not way out. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is that a dismissal? The other references I looked at had this information and an article about the clade, not the historical concept for one clade and the apg clades for the others like Wikipedia. It is like you rewrote modern science out of old books for one article, a very important article, and used modern sources for the rest. 50.250.153.211 (talk) 04:25, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aconitum

Because of a story in the UK news, a number of editors are adding "toxicology" material to this page based on something speculative said during an inquest. I've been reverting but more expert eyes/views would help, as always ... Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. FloraWilde (talk) 20:25, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:Zigzig20s/Petit Gulf cotton

Hello. Is anyone here interested in helping me create a page about Petit Gulf cotton? I have started a userpage. I think this could easily become a start, but I am not an expert at all. It seems very historically significant. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 08:54, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There's some juicy bits on this in this ref, download the PDF from Stanford Univ. HalfGig talk 17:48, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There's some stuff in JSTOR too. Do you have access? HalfGig talk 17:51, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't, unfortunately.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:13, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, the Stanford PDF says, "Please do not cite without permission."Zigzig20s (talk) 18:15, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If you have access to Jstor though, feel free to expand it. Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 03:31, 9 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Request for review of lichen genus article style and format

I am starting to fill out the articles on lichen genera, from A-Z, then on species within the genera. The plant template does not quite fit when it comes to lichens. Also, I am finding variations from article to article on the format for lichen genera aricles, e.g., on lists of species being partial "selected" lists in the article body, being collapsed lists in the article body, being collapsed lists entirely contained in the taxobox and not the article body, and being their own articled that is linked from the genus article. I just did some work on Acarospora. I would appreciate it if someone could review it and make suggestions or comments for improvements, then I will use the resulting formatting and style for other lichen genus articles. (I already know one improvement is to use more sources, which I will do, especially dispositive sources on the genus. FloraWilde (talk) 20:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the lichen articles aren't within the scope of this project, so there's no reason they should follow our template. However, WP:WikiProject Fungi seems pretty inactive at present, so maybe it is sensible to ask here, although you should certainly also ask there. I note that the Fungi project page suggests Psilocybe as one of its "template" examples – it seems to follow the Plants template fairly well, except for discussing species at the end, which I think is quite wrong. The Distribution and habitat section is bound to require some mention of species. In most cases the biochemistry and pharmacology will also require information at the level of species. The history, uses and ethnography certainly do. So Taxonomy, including subdivisions of taxa, belongs before these other sections.
Collapsed lists are controversial; I've noticed experienced editors (Stemonitis is one) uncollapsing them on the grounds that information shouldn't be hidden from users. If they are present, then I think they should be the exception, not the rule.
Finally, I'd strongly suggest looking at some of the WikiProject Fungi Featured Articles. Peter coxhead (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Peter coxhead. I posted the same notice on the WP:WikiProject Fungi talk page. I will make a habit of looking at featured articles there, and elsewhere. FloraWilde (talk) 23:21, 8 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Plants&oldid=633050969"