Talk:The Holocaust

Edit request: German euthanasia ("Action T4") until August 1941, then Jewish genocide ("Holocaust")

Could a registered editor please replace the following confusing paragraph in the lead:

From 1941 to 1945, Jews were systematically murdered in one of the deadliest genocides in history, which was part of a broader aggregate of acts of oppression and killings of various ethnic and political groups in Europe by the Nazi regime.[7] Every arm of Germany's bureaucracy was involved in the logistics and the carrying out of the genocide. Other victims of Nazi crimes included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Romanis, communists, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses and the mentally and physically disabled.[8][9]

with this chronological correction:

Prior to the Jewish genocide, mentally and physically disabled Germans and Austrians had been secretively murdered from 1939 until 1941 under the Action T4 programme. When Action T4 was halted in August 1941 under pressure from von Galen, the personnel and the techniques were soon re-deployed to Poland for implementing industrial-scale killings in mobile death vans, and for establishing extermination camps with gas chambers for the mass murder of Jews. Other victims after August 1941 included ethnic Poles, Soviet citizens and Soviet POWs, other Slavs, Sinti and Romani (gypsies), communists, homosexuals, and Jehovah's Witnesses.[8][9]

And on a completely different matter, could this careless and unsourced sentence please be removed:

"Germany's invasion of Poland in September 1939 increased the urgency of the "Jewish Question".

I am sure it was not the Wikipedia author's intention to sound like a Nazi, but unfortunately that is what it sounds like. Alternatively, please put the sentence in quotation marks and cite a source, to make completely clear that it is not a Wikipedia point of view. Thank you.

References

konzerne - beispiele

BMW - Quandt und die Göbbels Connection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpQpgd_EeWY

Opel General Motors - David James Mooney , Vergasungs-Lkw Opel Blitz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSflzubxN5g

Volkswagen - Gründung durch Adolf Hitler, vollständige Gründung und Kontrolle des Konzerns unter Adolf Hitler https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc34hc8tXO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qd1GD9iXzo

Deutsche Bahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVLc7TwlBcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjAjMRIyOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5EGpR4we1c speditions-firma, kz deportationen

Siemens zug-bau-konzern, elektrische züge seit 1879, Betreiber des KZ Auschwitz-Aussenlager-Bobrek, strom-zaun von Auschwitz, baute die züge, mit denen kz-insassen deportiert wurden ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLZtOzHblA8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jptb4v1aBGw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUikwfkxUyQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobrek_concentration_camp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPL1iq946Pg http://www.projektzeitlupe.de/de/ernadevries/essays/gfx/siemens.jpg http://www.projektzeitlupe.de/de/ernadevries/essays/pdf/Das%20Siemens-Lager%20in%20Ravensbrueck.pdf

BASF, Bayer, Agfa, Aventis-Sanofi, Höchst, Kodak, I.G. Farben - chemie-konzern, arznei-mittel-konzern, zyklon b hersteller, präparat be1039(mengele experimente) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQPHEh0SsoA https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.G._Farben https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben#World_War_II_overview http://www.relay-of-life.org/images/speech_20071114/image12.jpg http://www.relay-of-life.org/images/speech_20071114/image15.jpg https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ig%20farben%20managers&qs=n&form=QBIR&pq=ig%20farben%20managers&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk= http://www4ger.dr-rath-foundation.org/images/igmanagers%5B1%5D.jpe

Flick - Der Flick-Konzern ist an der Errichtung des KZ Auschwitz beteiligt gewesen ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO8vmMIdUxQ https://cover.archinform.net/m/9783570551431.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Friedrich_Flick_Nuremberg.JPG/220px-Friedrich_Flick_Nuremberg.JPG

Thyssen-Krupp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JefT_xV7MRA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP5CWO0hWUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5YbGJnr9U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8AdSHKywEU

Dr. Oetker - Gründer sind NSDAP Mitglieder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzAjv76Z5c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naSs7SxQqAI

Messerschmidt GmbH - wurde von Bölkow, später Airbus aufgekauft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nNdDkyiANo

... Nasa - Raumfahrt-Konzern , Wernher von Braun, V2 Rakete https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELE1q1JzMKs

Daimler

Adidas Puma - gegründet bei der olympiade 1936 von adolf dassler und rudolf dassler, betreibt zwangsarbeits-lager in 3.welt gebieten ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4e2t0W2uIQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4i2ZUnBGLiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EApi8iKZV9k

Metro Group AG - Gründer des Konzerns ist Dr. Beisheim , LSSAH Mitglied https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bESepvE3uvw

IBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOJwA6NGZTE https://ironboltbruce.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/ibm_holocaust.jpg?w=510 https://2012patriot.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ibm-2.jpg?w=450&h=676 https://www.amazon.de/Holocaust-Verstrickung-Weltkonzerns-Verbrechen-Nazis/dp/3549071302/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1468002485&sr=8-2&keywords=edwin+black

Deutsche Bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank#1933.E2.80.931945

Continentale AG Varta - Hersteller von Reifen im 2. wk, betreiber vom kz stöcken, kz limmer Standard Oil Monsanto Bertelsmann - Verbreiter von "Mein Kampf", auch nach 1945 hat der berstelsmann konzern "mein kampf" verbreitet, Bertelsmann besitzt die RTL-Group und verbreitet haus eigene Propaganda

Die Medien-Konzerne UFA

Wiesenhof - KZ ähnliche Massentierhaltung

Aventis Sanofi - kaufte den Zyklon-B-Konzern Höchst auf

Hugo Boss - HJ uniforms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_8A9R_cafQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb2dDP3ohGE

Chase National Bank https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXh7HfEFhik

RWE, Vattenfall, Eon EnBW - lieferte den Strom für elektrische Zäune und Scheinwerfer in KZs http://www.kz-auschwitz.de/pix/photos/e_zaun09.jpg

OSRAM - Scheinwerfer in KZs

Telefunken - Hersteller von dem Propaganda-Radio, Die "Göbbels-Schnauze" genannt

Lufthansa

Arcor, Vodafone, Mannesmann http://www.gettyimages.de/detail/nachrichtenfoto/joseph-goebbels-29-10-1897-politician-nazi-party-nachrichtenfoto/548180151

Should it be called "The Holocaust"?

There were holocausts in Armenia in World War I and Ukraine in the 1930s. (IssacSterling (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC))

Those have different names entirely - Armenian Genocide and Holodomor. GAB^gab 15:53, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

They have been widely called the Armenian Holocaust and the Ukrainian Holocaust. (IssacSterling (talk) 15:57, 11 October 2016 (UTC))

This has been raised before in the past, consensus (both here and in academia) is that "The Holocaust" refers to the subject of this article. Check the archives. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:36, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Article focus

I don't think the article should focus on Jews as much as it does currently. Jews were a tragic and disproportionate portion of those killed in the holocaust, but I think the focus of the article should be on the broader (11 million) scope of the holocaust instead of a subset (6 million) for purposes of inclusion and getting the complete picture. an example of how this would be implemented in practice would be as such. Where the article currently reads: "The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about six million Jews.[4] The victims included 1.5 million children[5] and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[6] Some definitions of the Holocaust include the additional five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders, bringing the total to about 11 million. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany, German-occupied territories[7] and territories held by allies of Nazi Germany." I propose it should go more like: The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος holókaustos: hólos, "whole" and kaustós, "burnt"),[3] also known as the Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, HaShoah, "the catastrophe"), was a genocide in which Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany and its collaborators killed about eleven million people.[relevant citation number] The victims included 1.5 million children[5], six million Jews[4], and represented about two-thirds of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe.[6] Some definitions of the Holocaust focus exclusively on the six million Jewish victims of the Holocaust. Killings took place throughout Nazi Germany, German-occupied territories[7] and territories held by allies of Nazi Germany.

I will admit, the reason for my disposition towards the more complete, less Jew-focused version is due to personal experience, having personally never in my academic or personal life seen the Holocaust be used to refer exclusively to Jewish victims, it seems rather exclusionary to put such emphasis on them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yilmaz1001 (talk • contribs) 16:52, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe this issue has been settled in mainstream academic circles for decades. When scholars discuss the Holocaust of the Nazi era, they're mainly referring to the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Hitler regime and its collaborators. The Holocaust is the culmination of the Final Solution to the Jewish Question, the Nazi plan to eradicate the Jewish people. Clearly other groups, among them the Roma and Slavic peoples under Nazi occupation, were also victims of the Nazi's genocidal intentions, but European Jewry bore the brunt of these policies. They were the main target of the Holocaust, and are logically the main, though not exclusive, focus of an encyclopedic article about the Holocaust. Scaleshombre (talk) 08:28, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Scaleshombre, could you provide references for this "settled" question? Dimadick (talk) 14:05, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

On 7 March 2015, I wrote: "As I look around the books in my study, I come up with the following writers: Saul Friedlander, Peter Longerich, Michael Marrus, Robert Paxton, Christopher Browning, Deborah Lipstadt, Leni Yahil, Walter Laqueur, Arthur D. Morse, Nora Levin, Susan Zuccotti, Alexander Donat, David S. Wyman, Martin Gilbert, Yehuda Bauer, Timothy Snyder, Tony Judt, Caroline Moorehead, Ian Kershaw, and Raul Hilberg. By anybody's measure, an honor roll of the major historians of modern European history. Everyone of them uses the term "The Holocaust" to distinguish the Nazi mass murder of European Jews from other Nazi mass murders."Archive 29 Joel Mc (talk) 17:48, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2016

I'd like to add some categories if I can. Moneyball123 (talk) 23:27, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. What is the name of this category? — Andy W. (talk) 23:33, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2016

I have more information 95.147.188.126 (talk) 21:26, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. RudolfRed (talk) 22:04, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Mistake in section 3.9 "Death Squads"

The mistake is found here: "The most notorious massacre of Jews in the Soviet Union was at a ravine called Babi Yar outside Kiev, where 33,771 Jews were killed in a single operation on 29–3 September 1941."

The massacre was from 29-30 September, not from 29-3... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.178.67.182 (talk) 20:20, 29 November 2016 (UTC)