Talk:George Floyd

Is this article necessary?

Not to deviate from the gravity of the issue, but is George Floyd as a person noteworthy? To me it seems the only thing he is known for is the unfortunate manner of his death. Aside from that, had he not been arrested and killed, this page would not exist. When people type "George Floyd" in the search box it is likely that they are seeking information on the police brutality case and expecting a redirect to "Killing of George Floyd", not his life story.

I support incorporating/merging certain details in this article into the Killing of George Floyd article, but certain other information such as his "Discography" (which do not link anywhere else) should be omitted or used in other existing articles e.g. Screwed Up Click.

Again, as with most people throughout the world I am sad and outraged over how he met his end, but at the same time we need to keep things balanced in Wikipedia.

Yekshemesh (talk) 03:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, in my opinion George Floyd as a person does not seem to meet the notability standards set for noteworthy. Specifically, George Floyd's role in the incident was that he was stopped by the police and murdered, his discography or where he was born played no role in that. I agree with rolling major biographical details into the Killing of George Floyd article.

Sean0987 (talk) 04:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems like a clear cut case to keep the article about the murder, not about the man. St.nerol (talk) 13:12, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

i concur. 71.209.73.127 (talk) 17:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Just checked out this page after viewing Heather Heyer's section in the Charlottesville car attack page. Concur on merge with larger article. 50.106.142.26 (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this article is absolutely necessary, and

No, this article should not be merged into the Killing of George Floyd page. Mr Floyd absolutely needs a bio, which would otherwise be sub-merged in any other article.

And clearly, whoever put the merger flag up in a drive by edit, doesn´t know their business, because they didn´t leave a message on this page, as is customary, starting a proper discussion. As there is no section of discussion of the merger, (it should have it in the title) I am leaving my opinion here.--Wuerzele (talk) 21:23, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Wuerzele: The merge discussion is at Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Proposed_merge_of_George_Floyd_into_Killing_of_George_Floyd. You probably missed the "Discuss" link of the main page's notice.—Bagumba (talk) 03:23, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this article is absolutely necessary. This one man destroyed so many lives for these 10 days, it is insane. Actor on The Flash was fired because of him. See the tweets (from 8 years ago) he was fired for, this is insanity 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:90E:C8C1:D28A:1A59 (talk) 17:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

They should include his arrest record on the page then , including how he served 5 years after robbing a pregnant lady at gunpoint in her own home in 2007 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:160A:C2C5:4415:90EE:28D1:CDA1 (talk) 23:27, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Where did George Floyd die?

It says in Minneapolis, but where? Which street or intersection? 97.113.131.139 (talk) 19:18, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

He was pronounced dead at 9:25 p.m. at the Hennepin County Medical Center. The knee-on-the-neck, which left him unconscious and pulseless, happened at the intersection of E. 38th St. and Chicago Ave South, roughly between 8:20 and 8:30 p.m. I'm not sure if being pronounced dead at 9:25 at the hospital means he was still alive (in some medical sense) when he arrived at the hospital. See Killing of George Floyd for details and sources. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 19:40, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

When your heartbeat and breathing stops, you're dead in the medical sense. For reasons largely unknown to science, some dead people respond to cardiopulmonary resuscitation efforts and some do not. At 9:25, it just became apparent to a doctor that all hope of a "miraculous recovery" was lost this time. The ticker stopped at the intersection, underneath the police, and remained still until it was removed at the morgue around 9:25 the next morning. So safe to say he was killed on the streets of Minneapolis. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:12, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Safest to just say Minneapolis, the location of both the neck hold and the hospital.—Bagumba (talk) 04:28, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The medical examiner reported "Location of death: Hennepin Healthcare - ER" [1], so it was not on the street. WWGB (talk) 04:56, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Officially, pronouncement time is correct. Biologically, you need vital signs to live. Report notes CPR began "at the field" (on the scene), indicating cessation of life already occured. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:13, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

so many related articles...

I think it's become kind of silly that we have multiple articles about his death, the protests, etc., but not a bio. This seems to be no longer a matter of notability based on one incident. —valereee (talk) 17:48, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: My issue with this biography is that it's basically a subset of the information in the article Killing of George Floyd. Also, adding a biography does not solve the problem of multiple articles about George Floyd's death, but instead exacerbates the problem. I'm sure that once the dust settles he will get a proper biography, but while events are unfolding it seems very confusing. --Elephanthunter (talk) 18:09, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Elephanthunter, a lot of the bio information that was in Killing of GF shouldn't be in that article, and I've moved quite a bit of it to this bio. —valereee (talk) 18:28, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I feel like this page is fine but it shouldn't be a reason to remove info from the Killing of George Floyd page. Because that is the one people are seeing right now. Also, we need to make sure people can easily find links between this page, Killing of George Floyd, and George Floyd protests. The Spirit of Oohoowahoo (talk) 19:02, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The various articles are a little confusing, I have to admit. Perennial Student (talk) 19:36, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: This will cause an overlap of information with Killing of George Floyd, as is already happening (eg the reference to the state autopsy which is repeated, for balance we're now going to have to add the independent autopsy, and as you can see, this quickly becomes repetition of material). Although some page splits and merges are needed, I think they're currently not being discussed enough and being done hastily. I think perhaps some more waiting should've been done before creating this page. I'm not sure how much more can be elaborated here. It may end up being the case that much of the information in the killing page should be moved here or elsewhere, like the Rodney King article, but I think it's a bit premature currently. The current design might just cause confusion, poorer access to information by readers, and repetitiveness. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 19:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

ProcrasinatingReader, overlap of information isn't a problem for WP. Most of our articles overlap to some degree with other articles. We deal with each subject as if it were independent; if we can use information from another article, that's great! New York (city) can use information from Manhattan. —valereee (talk) 02:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Valereee: Yup, we discussed on the other merge discussion :). I was more concerned with the direction some users' edits to this page were going - to possibly duplicating content copiously. That would be pretty excessive imo, if we're spending paragraphs talking about the same aspects of the death as another page, on the exact same topic. But I don't have much opposition to expanding on the background, and other topics, of the individual here. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 02:42, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Details of home invasion

Note: I've been informed by an editor that I'm posting defamatory information. The UK newspaper Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8366533/George-Floyd-moved-Minneapolis-start-new-life-released-prison-Texas.html) has posted extracts from the police documentation regarding the 2007 home invasion case. The documents state that mr. Floyd (along with others) invaded a private house and put a gun to the stomach of a woman. There have been further claims made about the race and state of that woman which I can't confirm on the basis of the documents in the Daily Mail article (I apologize for making the claim in the previous version of this post). If I understand the abbreviation "yoa" correctly, there was a year-old child in the house. This seems like relevant information and reference to include in the article, bearing in mind that it by now includes a discography.46.109.77.155 (talk) 03:18, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not considered a reliable source on Wikipedia. While the home invasion side has been added by me (as it's supported by the Guardian and other sources), the Daily Mail facts are omitted precisely because they are not reliable. The info in the Daily Mail cannot be "vouched for" by a reliable source, per WP:SYNTH. Perennial Student (talk) 03:31, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Did you see the article? It includes scanned documents, that's what I'm basing this on, not the article itself. I find it REALLY hard to believe that even Daily Mail would dare forge court documents regarding a recently murdered man!! 46.109.77.155 (talk) 03:33, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The "consensus" section regarding Daily Mail that you quoted states that it is "generally unreliable" and should not be used when other sources exist. However, other sources do not exist. The consensus mentions "poor fact checking, sensationalism, and flat-out fabrication": the court document includes the name and the correct date, which seems to exclude poor fact checking; flat-out fabrication seems totally improbable - it would require them to decide to forge an official US court document along with signatures and seals! And while it is sensationalist, that would only concern notability. Reminder, the article currently includes a discography, so standard of notability seems to be low. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 03:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"As a result, the Daily Mail should not be used for determining notability, nor should it be used as a source in articles." The over-lords have spoken. Perennial Student (talk) 03:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Perennial Student, it may be that reliable sources will eventually support what the Daily Mail is saying, but right now we don't know. Would you like to clarify what you mean by "the over-lords have spoken"? —valereee (talk) 04:07, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Should this remain on this talk page, I would like to add a little fact-check regarding some rumors floating around on youtube and facebook. <REDACTED> 46.109.77.155 (talk) 04:23, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You're free to make any requested changes you'd like, if you back them up with reliable sources. Best to do them in new sections so they don't get lost in this one. Perennial Student (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@46.109.77.155: I've redacted the rumors, which are also unsourced. Please see the policy WP:BDP on recently dead people. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 05:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

All right, but you do understand that if respected outlets simply ignore this story (clearly for PC and not sourcing reasons), conspiracy theorists and far-right people will run away with it, and with some justification, because you seem to be intent on whitewashing the man! I've been editing wikipedia on and off for years, and I've never had a comment of mine removed from the TALK PAGE just for the sin of mentioning a rumor, that I explicitly marked as a rumor and even debunked in the same sentence! 46.109.77.155 (talk) 05:41, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Which part of the WP:BDP policy you mentioned applies to comments in talk pages, according to you? It seems to be about "articles". 46.109.77.155 (talk) 05:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

See the top of that WP:BLP page: Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page.—Bagumba (talk) 06:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

He's not a living person. Obviously you've put together the strictest definitions from different parts of the policy to deduce that "the editor can do what he wants" and "talk page posts need to be sourced". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.109.77.155 (talk) 06:32, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"... because you seem to be intent on whitewashing the man": See WP:NOTFORUM. If you said it's a rumor, and you "debunked" it (, and it was unsourced), this conversation should be over.—Bagumba (talk) 06:24, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Well you tell that to Steven Crowder who's running away with the <REDACTED> and <REDACTED> version of the story because there's no one debunking it, no one even touching the story with a very long stick. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 06:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Valereee Did you mistake me for the OP here? If not, I didn't mean to imply that the DM* claims could never be supported by an RS. For clarification, I mean the policy about the Daily Mail has been effected by others and it's not for me to make or change it. Given OP was trying to convince me to disapply the policy. Perennial Student (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It is a very sad state of affairs if information clearly appearing in court documents is excluded because copies of these documents appeared in a publication that is not considered reliable - even through there is no dispute about reliability of the said information. - BorisG (talk) 13:48, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@BorisG: Per WP:ONUS, we don't automatically include everything because it's true. It's all subject to consensus.—Bagumba (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

BorisG, what court document? Are you talking about the probable cause statement? Do you realize that contains allegations, and not findings? So, for us to say in wikivoice that "x happened" and cite to a probable cause statement would be to take allegations and say they were true. That would be a very sad state of affairs. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:50, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

A woman accused him of invading her home, and then he spent 5 years in prison. Seems like there might be a causal relationship there, no? If the document with the "findings" is not forthcoming, surely there are ways to phrase it differently: "served 5 years in prison after being accused of...", or "allegedly committed", etc. In the current atmosphere, is it also not relevant to note that the victims (accusers) were persons of color, judging by their names (Hispanic)? This would make the accusations much more credible for many people, since according to the stereotype the police are less likely to frame a black man for the sake of non-white victims. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 22:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Btw, a probable cause is in fact a "finding". It is not a transcript of the victim's accusation (as you seem to believe), but a statement from a "peace officer" confirming that he has FOUND these accusations credible, and "believes and has reason to believe" that the defendant in fact committed the crime. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 22:53, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

More sources confirming George Floyd had criminal record:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52871936

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/05/remembering-george-floyd-devoted-father-gentle-giant-200531070908430.html

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/george-floyd-family-police-video-death-minneapolis-15298275.php

https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-george-floyd-biography-20200528-y3l67rrmfnb3dh4x3i5iipneq4-story.html Cherubic (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The article avoids saying he actual did or committed or was convicted of any crimes. It says he was "arrested", "charged", and "took a plea deal". He was convicted of something serious if he spent 5 years in prison, even if he did a plea deal. I could not find what the Wikipedia policy is--some articles on criminals flatly state they robbed a bank or murdered (Charles Manson, Brenden Abbott), others (Bill Cosby) just say he was found guilty. Is there a reason I should not add that he was convicted? - Ttulinsky (talk) 06:14, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

"Took a plea deal" is why he was "convicted"; it means he agreed to be convicted. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

No, it is not. You can withdrew your plea. 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:9CF8:F8C6:8370:8A43 (talk) 23:28, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

This is censorship supported by an exuberant amount of wikilawyering. In an unbiased encyclopedia, this article should have started with 'George Floyd was an American criminal, and was killed when being arrested for etc., etc. - BorisG (talk) 13:54, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

New York Post source

@Valereee: Hiii Val! I think I disagree with including this (the entire sentence, not just the parts added in that edit) sourced to the New York Post, which is like a tabloid rag known for gossip and sensationalism, in my humble opinion. I can't find this being reported in any better-quality RS (although it is out there on the internet). I can't help but think that if top tier media aren't reporting it, it's undue for us to include. What do you think? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 23:08, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd prefer more reliable sources noting this to be sure it's not WP:UNDUE mention.—Bagumba (talk) 00:57, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's better to wait. It's not in the BBC source, for instance. —valereee (talk) 10:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• There seems to be consensus that the court record published by Daily Mail is verifiable. If not, let someone step forward and explain why the court record is not verifiable. The court record states that Floyd was identified as holding a gun on the victim. Let someone step forward and explain why this information should be excluded from the article.Asgrrr (talk) 15:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

  There seems to be consensus – Huh? To be clear, I do think we'll be including something like this in due course, but only after we have RSs for it (read: no, not the Daily Mail). Even if (as I have little doubt) the court records are for the right person, there's the question of interpretation of them e.g. multiple charges after refer to only a single incident. I can definitely imaging NYT giving an informed interpretation while the Daily Mail just barfs out something from a database search. It's a great example of (a) why we use only reliablesources (with good editorial oversight) even for things that seems "obvious" and (b) WP:NOR. EEng 15:23, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• There it is: https://thecourierdaily.com/george-floyd-criminal-past-record-arrest/20177/ As requested, NOT the Daily Mail. It has all the court papers. On page three of the court papers: https://thecourierdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/george-floyd-criminal-record-3.jpg Near the bottom, it is clearly stated that the victim identified George Floyd as the man who held a gun to her abdomen. Not a lot of room for interpretation there. Asgrrr (talk) 15:30, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

  Sorry if you thought I meant that any source other than the Daily Mail would qualify as reliable. Reliable means (among other things) having a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy (see WP:RS). A website that calls itself a global news company specializing in breaking news stories. Our coverage spans a large variety of topics not limited to Finance, Science, Technology and Health, with no apparent named writers or editorial staff, [2] doesn't qualify. EEng 15:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Redux

In 2007, Floyd was charged with armed robbery in a home invasion in Houston, in which another man posed as a water department worker in an attempt to gain access to a woman’s residence, according to court documents.

When the woman realized he wasn’t actually a water department worker, she tried to close the door. That’s when five other men got out of a car that had just pulled up and forced their way inside.

According to charging documents, the largest man in the group, whom the victim identified as Floyd, “forced his way inside the residence, placed a pistol against the complainant’s abdomen, and forced her into the living room area of the residence.”

Floyd in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal in the case.; Cherubic (talk) 17:20, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Agreed. I think now we have enough sources to include that, perhaps as its own separate section. What do others think?

Cheers,Λuα ^{(Operibus anteire)} 03:08, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, those documents also seem to mention that there was a 1 year old child in the home at the time, at least I think that's what the abbreviation "1 yoa" ("years of age") means. Perhaps someone can correct me on that? 46.109.77.155 (talk) 22:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Hang on a second. There are two issue at play, WP:UNDUE (part of WP:NPOV), and verification (WP:V).
  • If you look at the BBC article, this is what it says: His life then took a different turn, with a string of arrests for theft and drug possession culminating in an armed robbery charge in 2007, for which he was sentenced to five years in prison.
  • Al Jazeera: Floyd was charged in 2007 with armed robbery in a home invasion in Houston and in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal, according to court documents.
  • Houston Chronicle: Starting in 2009, Floyd served a five-year prison sentence as part of a plea deal on a 2007 charge of aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon, Harris County court records show.
  • Chicago Tribune: Floyd was charged in 2007 with armed robbery in a home invasion in Houston and in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal, according to court documents.
  • Atlanta Journal-Constituion: Floyd was charged in 2007 with armed robbery in a home invasion in Houston and in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal, according to court documents.
  • The Guardian: His life later took a different turn and in 2007 Floyd was charged with armed robbery in a home invasion in Houston and in 2009 was sentenced to five years in prison as part of a plea deal, according to court documents.
  • Texas Monthly: Floyd was arrested and charged with theft in 1998, and later with drug possession. In 2009, Floyd went to prison after pleading guilty to aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon. He was paroled in 2013, after four years at the Diboll Unit in East Texas.
  • Little more than a sentence in each source. No details about the crime. Nothing about a woman or child in the house.
  • We should certainly not be citing to the probable cause affidavit directly; those are allegations, not a description of what was proven true. Because this was a plea deal, nothing was every "proven" true. There was no trial, no verdict.
  • So the proposed paragraph above isn't verified by those links, and I don't think we should include anything more than a sentence saying that he pled guilty to armed robbery and did five years in prison. Basically, I think it's good the way it is now. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 15:46, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

People plead guilty to all sorts of things, for all sorts of reasons, especially if there's a plea deal involved. A plea alone leaves a lot of room for conspiracy theories. Was he caught in the dragnet, and made the deal just to avoid a harsher sentence? Was the police looking to fill out the numbers with any black man they could pull in? We have a solid document stating that Floyd was identified at the scene threatening a victim with a gun. That is VERY relevant information. Asgrrr (talk) 16:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Asgrrr: What "solid" document are you referring to? Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 16:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

https://thecourierdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/george-floyd-criminal-record-3.jpg Asgrrr (talk) 16:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Asgrrr, so why do you consider that a "solid" document, and what about the things I said about it above? It's a probable cause statement, containing allegations, signed by one person... this does not strike me as a reliable source. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:07, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

This is an official document prepared and signed by a public servant, who is supervised by others in authority. Falsifying such a document carries severe penalties. I fail to see how that is less reliable than a media article signed by a single person, quite the opposite in fact. Asgrrr (talk) 17:16, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:RS explains why a media article (which is independent and subject to editorial review) is more reliable than a probable cause statement by a police officer. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:21, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I fail to see that. Can you point to the specific clause(s) that explain that? Asgrrr (talk) 18:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Asgrrr, the specific section you want is WP:RSPRIMARY. The court document is a primary source. —valereee (talk) 18:34, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

There is nothing in WP:RSPRIMARY that would preclude a short statement of the kind we are talking about. There is no question of OR in this instance. Asgrrr (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Asgrrr, as the information at the link says, using primary sources is tricky. For instance, this primary source appears to be a charging document. Nothing in it tells us what he was convicted of or pled guilty to. What 'short statement of the kind we are talking about' are you talking about? I don't actually see any clear short statement that anyone has suggested. —valereee (talk) 01:58, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Please add the details of the home invasion to the article. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:04, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Here you go, a short statement: "In 2009, Floyd served five years in prison as part of a plea deal after being accused by a Hispanic couple of breaking into their house with four other men and committing armed robbery." This would link to the court document where the readers could judge for themselves regarding further details (presence of child, gun in belly). Hispanic is relevant because accusations from POC victims are more credible in this context. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 22:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Or simply give the names of the complainants, since their relationship (or race) is not actually indicated. 46.109.77.155 (talk) 22:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

The details of the home invasion can no longer be ignored. I understand the Daily Mail is unreliable tactic worked for a while but now the details of the invasion have been quoted through many reliable sources and should be added. Reaper7 (talk) 13:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Reaper7, if you could provide those reliable sources? —valereee (talk) 20:50, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Please add the details of the home invasion to the article. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Overall balance

This article, while of questionable noteworthiness as raised above, reads as a contrived "apologia" for the victim, emphasising his supposed positive traits selectively. Sentences like "He was a good father to his children" evoke the tone of a funeral eulogy rather than an article that lives up to Wiki standards, particularly as it is truncated from the source, where it says "while he was around". For people working with the social fallout from broken families, this grates as a rather insulting whitewash of problematic male behaviour. 158.169.40.8 (talk) 10:05, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I took "while he was around" to mean until he died. For your interpretation, it seems like "if", "when" or "whenever" would have been used instead of "while". FWIW, I added another source where the mother of one of his children called him a "good father".—Bagumba (talk) 10:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

This is precisely what I mean. You seem to be editing this article not from an impartial point of view, but to support your agenda, in this case, to use the victim for furthering a particular reading of the events surrounding his death. "Attractive", "good father", etc. have no place in a Wiki article, at least not in the context wherein they are used here. 158.169.40.8 (talk) 12:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, Sherlock.—Bagumba (talk) 02:50, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

IP, I think you'll find that when stuff like that gets added, someone else comes along and removed it. We generally only include stuff like that when it's quoting someone. —valereee (talk) 16:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

General Organization of all Related George Floyd Pages

Logically, this page should be the head page for all George Floyd, including his killing and the protests that ensued. The contents of the pages on his killing [Killing of George Floyd]] should should be included here and that page deleted. On the other hand, the page on the protests [[George Floyd protests is probably too long to be included and should be linked to from this article. Abelian (talk) 12:01, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

@Abelian: There is an existing merge disussion at Talk:Killing_of_George_Floyd#Proposed_merge_of_George_Floyd_into_Killing_of_George_Floyd, where you can comment on this topic.—Bagumba (talk) 12:35, 5 June 2020 (UTC).

@Bagumba: This proposal is for the merge in the opposite direction. Logically this should be THE head page. If your remark is that I add my suggestion to the other talk pages, I am happy to do so.. Please note though that I observed that the protest page is probably too long to be merged into this page, but the page on the killing may be merged here. This seemed the appropriate page to make the merge suggestion. Abelian (talk) 22

• 20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd is at least as notable as the Black Dahlia [[Black Dahlia | Elizabeth Short] who was an un-notable 22 year old woman, prior to her death. Abelian (talk) 12:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd is also notable both nationally and internationally.

• The international protests seem seem largely apolitical being focused primarily on police brutality.
• The local, state and US national[ protests are partly political as testified to partly by the protests in front of the White House.
  • Many white Americans, particularly conservatives, assumed that the deaths of black men at the hands of police, were isolated incidents (source: host Joe Scarborough and other hosts, guests and commentators, June 5, 2020)
  • On the other hand, the loose umbrella organization Black Lives Matter maintains that the problem is systemic and needs to be addressed both politically and legislatively.

Abelian (talk) 12:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The legislative issue in the US at the national level, is the doctrine of Qualified Immunity advanced by the US Supreme Court in 1967, which has made prosecuting law enforcement officers more difficult.

Abelian (talk) 12:49, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Qualified ImmunityAbelian (talk) 13:53, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Ttulinsky (talk) 03:36, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Qualified Immunity makes civil suits for damages more difficult, not criminal prosecution. See Wikipedia article and https://theappeal.org/qualified-immunity-explained/.

@Ttulinsky: See the wikipedia page on the increasing use of the Qualified immunity in cases of Police brutality or excessive force. Abelian (talk) 22:09, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd a film actor

Hello,

I'm new here. So I can't edit the page, I think because of the "political reasons" it was closed/(semi-protected). Please add this information to occupation and to biography, that he was a pornographic film actor.

Sources: "iHarare Media" is Zimbabwe's newspaper - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_Zimbabwe : https://iharare.com/george-floyd-was-a-porn-star/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUVtrcXt2vo

I will not add "XXX" content into here. It's very easy to find it on Google. Search: George Floyd porn Kimberly Brinks

People should know the truth. Thank you, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maksimiuk (talk • contribs) 17:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

It seems WP:NPF and WP:AVOIDVICTIM apply. Plus, we don't have a reliable source for the fact. Will let a more experienced editor deal with this, though. Perennial Student (talk) 19:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:NPF is not consistent with a dedicated bio existing. It's either one or the other, which presumably the merge discussion will resolve.—Bagumba (talk) 04:04, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Administrator note unless it receives widespread mention by reliable sources, I am deeming this addition to be a BLP violation. In fact, I had already revdeleted it from the article earlier today on those grounds. I won't remove this article talk page section for the simple reason that I predict the matter will be brought up again anyway (so in that sense, to avoid a timesink). But unless the aforementioned conditions are met, further unsourced or poorly-sourced mention of this are prohibited and will be summarily removed henceforth. El_C 19:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

If the only evidence that Floyd was an adult entertainer is the first minute of an apparent porn video from thehabibshow.com on YouTube and a screen capture of Floyd and Brinks with no clothes on (showing the top only) is that good enough for inclusion? Why or why not? With that much evidence is another “reliable source” necessary? Are you saying our own two eyes are not reliable? If so, it sounds like you are suppressing factual information. It is clearly part of an amateur porn video branded by thehabibshow.com. Jasonagastrich (talk) 07:14, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Having seen the entire video, in which he introduces himself as Big Floyd from Third Ward, Houston, Texas, I understand your frustration. However, Wikipedia requires that content be supported by reliable independent sources, which we do not have. In the current climate, I doubt that any newspaper or magazine would publish such a counter-positive story. It may appear at a later time but, for now, we do not have the secondary sources to support inclusion. WWGB (talk) 07:35, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you saying our own two eyes are not reliable? Yes. See WP:NOR. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 17:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources? Why Zimbabwe's newspaper with provided facts (footage, video) is considered as "not reliable"? Who determines what is "reliable" and what is not? If a newspaper from the USA will publish the same information, it will be considered as a reliable source? That's at least is discrimination which creates an "informational vacuum/dictatorship". Currently provided information is misleading people because the provided information is given that way which leading parties/movements want to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maksimiuk (talk • contribs) 12:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

We operate on consensus on Wikipedia, such as whether a source is reliable. Moreover, per WP:ONUS, we don't automatically include everything because it's true. That's also subject to consensus. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 14:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Maksimiuk, the wikipedia editors (you and I and everyone else who edits here) decide what sources are reliable. You can discuss whether a particular source should be considered reliable at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. —valereee (talk) 16:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I would argue that the reliability of this source actually isn't the problem here. Rather, is this sufficiently noteworthy for inclusion? If only one source has reported on it (despite how much reporting is being done on Floyd currently,) I would argue that it's not. Pacack (talk) 03:28, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

The fact he was in at least 1 adult movie and the star of that film no less is certainly noteworthy. Amazed it is not already included.Reaper7 (talk) 23:14, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Please add a mention of Floyd's pornographic film to the article. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:06, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course we should mention it! One of my favourite actors from The Flash was fired because of this and tweets he tweeted 7 years ago! People have a need to know, there are tons of videos on xvideos! 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:7140:8EEB:DE15:ADB4 (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for a proper response from admin's side. "Esau, why you didn't finished your justice? Just look at this." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maksimiuk (talk • contribs) 16:14, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Maksimiuk, you received an answer. Two, in fact. What I said: the wikipedia editors (you and I and everyone else who edits here) decide what sources are reliable. You can discuss whether a particular source should be considered reliable at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. What Bagumba said: We operate on WP:consensus on Wikipedia, such as whether a source is reliable. Moreover, per WP:ONUS, we don't automatically include everything because it's true. That's also subject to consensus. —valereee (talk) 16:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Please add a mention of Floyd's pornographic film to the article. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:58, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

BTW, it is not porn as such, it is a reality show about/with porn! See FAQ here https://thehabibshow.com/tour/faq.php Just like bluecheckmarks on Pornhub. Also see chat with many comments RIP Floyd :( 94.29.3.116 (talk) 23:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Cause of death

His cause of death is obviously notable for the infobox, but what exactly is his cause of death? There are 2 autopsies reports that say separate things. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 19:47, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Death by sociopath would be inappropriate, of course. EEng 20:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Of course, because there is no such thing as sociopath or psycho-, as it is not accepted as official illness by ICD, look here also. There are some Anti-social behaviours of course but that is only accepted by psychologists, not by any real doctors, like psychiatrists (psychologists are not MD). 2A00:1FA0:42F3:90E6:21D1:68BC:9DCA:E134 (talk) 16:32, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• The George Floyd mural outside Cup Foods at Chicago Ave and E 38th St in Minneapolis, Minnesota.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:23, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Drugs found in his system not completely accurate

The autopsy found fentanyl and methamphetimine however this does not mean for sure that he was under the influence of those drugs at the time of his arrest. It means that those drugs were detected but he could have been under the influence the day before or several hours before. Of course it's also possible right then and there. It's also possible that he was under the influence of fentanyl but had done the other drug the day before, etc. I suggest the wording be changed to this "At the time of his death, he was possibly under the influence..". This source can be sited SilverDrake11 (talk) 22:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

SilverDrake11,  Fixed Good catch, thanks. I went with "was found in his system". As you say, we don't know if he was "under the influence" at the time of his death or any other time, and we shouldn't speculate ("possibly under the influence"). Better to just say what the autopsy said and no more. Levivich ^{[dubious – discuss]} 23:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Report says he popped for 11 ng/ml, and fentanyl intoxication was a significant condition. As with his "recent" meth use, which he seemingly was not still feeling when he died. Plenty was merely "found in his system", indicating weed, tobacco, codeine and No-Doz brand caffeine usage, but only the meth and fentanyl matter to his death (in that doctor's opinion). InedibleHulk (talk) 03:15, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Did Floyd have a history of drug addiction?

Some links mention this problem in passing, other news outlets don't even broach the subject. Reaper7 (talk) 21:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:RS/P, not conclusive on the reliability of The Washington Times, and it's considered partisan on the topic of race.—Bagumba (talk) 01:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Here is some additional detail (aside from him possessing illegal drugs and having illegal drugs in his system at the time of his killing):

• Floyd was convicted in the 1990s for possession and theft of a controlled substance (cocaine); it is not clear whether Floyd served time in prison for either of these felonies.
• Floyd was involved in two more cocaine offenses (in October 2002 and in 2004), for which he served eight-month and ten-months sentences in prison, respectively.
• Floyd was again convicted for cocaine possession in December 2005; he served 10 months in state prison, and, after a few months, his charge was upgraded, amending the cocaine amount he possessed to be about 4 grams; however, according to the records, the alleged charge was lifted because Floyd convinced the jury that he actually had less than 1 gram of cocaine.

I'm not sure that any of these details are mentioned in the current version of this article, however (despite the fact that, in this project, articles are supposed to be properly encyclopedic). 173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:56, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

Acting career

Also, George Floyd contributed to pornographic videos. He did not use staging name. He made three videos. Bybys4u (talk) 06:50, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. See existing section above. WWGB (talk) 07:47, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

Change "who was killed by police during an arrest" to "who was killed by Derek Chauvin, a former Minneapolis police officer during an arrest" 49.199.242.174 (talk) 12:31, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: It's in the third paragraph of the lead already. As he's not a household name, I think it's preferable to leave it generic in the lead paragraph.—Bagumba (talk) 13:50, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Nor should responsibility be restricted to Chauvin alone. EEng 14:39, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Is this interesting? Just an op-ed, though, and from Russia Today...

https://www.rt.com/op-ed/491203-candace-owens-george-floyd-being-hailed-as-saint/ This op-ed is crazy or not? "Floyd’s “violent criminal past” once saw him break into a pregnant woman’s home and point a loaded gun at her unborn child as he demanded money and drugs from her. It’s hard to imagine just how terrified his helpless victim must have felt with a firearm pressed against her unborn child." 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:7140:8EEB:DE15:ADB4 (talk) 15:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Not worthy of inclusion, and I don't think he should necessarily be referred to as a criminal since he cleaned up his life. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 16:00, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

There are far more reliable sources than RT and the Daily Mail detailing this incident, but like with his drug addictions and Porn film, they must not be included in the article because it could cause more riots. I suggest you re-read the article to learn the style of it. He had a quick stint as a truck driver - that is detailed in the article because it is positive. The porn film, details of the assault etc only add to the chaos. America needs no more incitement in my opinion. In a few years time we can have another look at the article when things have calmed down a bit. Reaper7 (talk) 16:05, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Can you clarify why you think it will cause more and not less rioting (I am not considering the invocation of Insurrection Act on 1 June by J. Trump (actually I am not sure of that because no military was deployed and even the article there says it is not envoked))? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:1fa0:42f3:90e6:21d1:68bc:9dca:e134 (talk • contribs)

Reaper7, it has nothing to do with causing more riots. It has to do with the fact none of us have seen 'far more reliable sources' covering this. If you've seen those sources, by all means bring them here. —valereee (talk) 16:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Reaper7, "by all means bring them here". Yes, please! RT is our russian fake news and is prohibited as perennial source so we cannot use it, other sources looks like they copied RT because of typo (no space in past”once). 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:90E:C8C1:D28A:1A59 (talk) 17:24, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Do we need to report that Floyd and Derek worked together?

George Floyd and now-former Officer Derek Chauvin both worked security at the El Nuevo Rodeo club on Lake Street, according to Maya Santamaria. Santamaria owned the building for nearly two decades, but sold the venue within the last few months. BTW, that club burned down in riotes. 2A00:1FA0:42F3:90E6:21D1:68BC:9DCA:E134 (talk) 16:14, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

George Floyd's death as been ruled a homicide

George Floyd's death has been ruled a homicide. To only show the negative of the two Autopsies that was done seems very wrong. It was like reading a bias article by Sean Hannity from Fox news. First time I've ever been disappointed in Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:8800:179A:A8D0:108D:526:E33A (talk) 17:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Was not it third autopsy that showed he is positive for coronavirus? 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:90E:C8C1:D28A:1A59 (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

In the second paragraph: "Later he faced several arrests for theft and drug possession; in 2009 he made a plea deal for an armed robbery serving four years in prison." (Add semi colon) Mitch.r.adams (talk) 18:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done by someone —valereee (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 June 2020

"White police officer" isn't necessary and is fuelling racism claims. Police officer and his name will do fine. There is no evidence amywhere, other than speculation, to suggest that George Floyd's death was in any way racially motivated. Whites, Asians, men, women, trans and homosexuals have been killed in the same way to george floyd and have not had any media attention. Remove the racial undertone. 80.73.208.253 (talk) 19:30, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. We cover what is reported in reliable sources. Nearly every reliable source is reporting Chauvin's race; the only exceptions seem to be those that feel it's been reported so frequently that it doesn't need to be repeated literally every time. We aren't reporting that the death is racially motivated because reliable sources aren't reporting that. —valereee (talk) 20:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

a) It was a white and an asian police officers and some others. b) the guy who killed him knew him and worked with him in the nightclub. 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:9CF8:F8C6:8370:8A43 (talk) 21:04, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Other run-ins with the law and prison stints

Why is only a single conviction and stint in prison mentioned in the current version of the article? That isn't very encyclopedic. Here are some additional details from Floyd's criminal past, which should be added to this article in order that it be properly encyclopedic:

• Floyd was convicted in the 1990s for possession and theft of a controlled substance (cocaine); it is not clear whether Floyd served time in prison for either of these felonies.

• Floyd was convicted for armed robbery (with a firearm) in August 1998, for which he served 10 months in the Harris County Jail.

• In April 2002, Floyd was sentenced to 30 days in prison for trespassing on private property.

• Floyd was involved in two more cocaine offenses (in October 2002 and in 2004), for which he served eight-month and ten-month sentences in prison, respectively.

• Floyd was again convicted for cocaine possession in December 2005; he served 10 months in state prison, and, after a few months, his charge was upgraded, amending the cocaine amount he possessed to be about 4 grams; however, according to the records, the alleged charge was lifted because Floyd convinced the jury that he actually had less than 1 gram of cocaine.

173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources? —valereee (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Wow, a guy from Charter Communications Inc according to ip! Do you have any info about beeting his wife and smth with child?? I read it in my local newspaper, obviously you should know more. 2A00:1370:812C:ADF2:90E:C8C1:D28A:1A59 (talk) 21:40, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

This article (published on June 6, 2020, and revised June 8, 2020) gives a basic overview. Aren't the people editing this Wikipedia article staying on top of the published news articles on this subject? The charges, convictions, and jail/prison records are all in the public record. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 22:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Yep, here are they https://leonardo.osnova.io/d5ddc13a-ef64-9463-4973-6143e05072fa/ Wow. 😃😃😃 Well, we have other things to do, this is open source after all... I also am trying to save that Flash actor... 94.29.3.116 (talk) 00:18, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Press mention of Wikipedia article

• https://slate.com/technology/2020/06/wikipedia-george-floyd-neutrality.html

---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:37, 9 June 2020 (UTC)