Talk:Joe Biden

Requesting new occupation to be added - Academic

Hello guys, could anyone please add the occupation of academic in the biodata too? He was an adjunct professor of law at the Delaware Law School for 17 years. Not to mention his brief stint as the Benjamin Franklin Presidential Practice Professor at UPenn.

https://www.widener.edu/news/news-archive/he-was-mr-president-he-was-professor-biden-his-widener-law-students

Sidebar

The sidebar containing Template:Joe Biden series was removed as a result of this discussion. This discussion had two in favor of removal and two against removal; I would argue that is not a consensus for removal but that is besides the point.

The two main criticisms of the sidebar brought up was that 1) it invades into the early life section and pushes an image found within and 2) has repeated information with the Template:Joe Biden at the bottom.

First, the Wikiproject for US Presidents has a style guide for all presidential sidebars and clearly states that "When placing a series box, ensure that it does not conflict with the article's body, and rearrange any photos necessary to make the box fit cleanly, and effectively." This seems to remedy the first criticism, just move the photo found in the Early Life section so it does not conflict with the sidebar.

But secondly and most importantly, every US President since LBJ have the exact same 'issues' within their own articles. All of their series boxes are somewhat intrusive into their main articles and all repeat the same information at the bottom. The result of this consensus has now impacted all of those articles as well because if we kept consistent ideas it would mean the removal of all of their sidebars on their pages. The sidebar should be reinstated immediately to fall in line with the consistent nature of every other modern US President's page. Yeoutie (talk) 21:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The style guide you mention also clearly states: "Not every president warrants a series box." Images should not be moved to accommodate non-essential templates; images should be placed in paragraphs in which they are relevant, per MOS:IMAGELOCATION. If all these series boxes are "somewhat intrusive" and if "all repeat the same information", as you say, then Wikipedia would be better served by removing sidebars from those other articles than by adding one to this article. Surtsicna (talk) 23:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, I deleted these 'series boxes/side bars' from the articles of all the US presidents & the few vice presidents that had them. I find these boxes merely crowd up the infobox, as well as article content. GoodDay (talk) 20:12, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Add this

All I see in this Article are positive things about Biden, it's maybe time to make this article seem less biased and add some criticism. I request this to be added. Feel free to shift a few words so it matches with other sentences.

During the press conference at the Geneva Summit, Biden stated that "as usuals," he had been given a list of reporters to call upon to ask questions. Conservative figures such as Rep. Greg Steube reacted on Twitter by asking: "How is this acceptable?" and Steve Guest, a special advisor for communications for Sen. Ted Cruz, called it "embarassing." Reavery (talk) 08:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

References

NOt sure this is a major (or even minor) controversy.Slatersteven (talk) 09:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. Two WP:FOXNEWS links does not a story make. AllegedlyHuman (talk) 02:33, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Lol, Fox Hysterics. Nope. Zaathras (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is the issue of Biden's fitness to serve as president not treated at all?

I've of course checked this article occasionally and have been doing so long time before I became a Wikipedia editor myself. One thing has never ceased to astonish me: the biggest issue concering Biden, his campaign and ultimately his time already served in office is not covered at all. I checked this talk page archive and I could find some threads where the question was raised but it never led to any changes.

So I'd ask myself: why does the article not treat this issue? Reliable Sources, that demonstrate media's and public's widespread concerns over Biden's cognitive state can easily be found. Please Google just "Joe+Biden+dementia". Will this topic ever be discussed in the article, and if not, why?

For comparison, take a look here: Donald Trump#Public profile. Not exactly a hagiography.Potugin (talk) 08:18, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

That is a fair question, Potugin. Can you find articles in which reputable media (such as these) discuss this? Surtsicna (talk) 09:37, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

As above, lets see some of these RS.Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm in Europe at the moment, so I may not be able to access all the media outlets I'd like to. Sky News has stuff to offer for example: [1]. (I think some of you might discard Boston Herald as it's a tabloid). Also, I'm a relatively new and infrequent user, so I won't be able to edit the article myself, however, anyone can make suggestions I guess, I'll make mine, you make yours.Potugin (talk) 10:59, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

And there is the issue, Alan Jones is not really medically trained, thus it's only an uniformed opinion (in an opp-edd piece), by a highly controversial figure. Now if you are saying you want something about how some in the media have said he is unfit, OK I can agree with that. But then we need to discuss proper wording. That does not violate wp:undue or wp:fringe. It might be best if this was in fact in an article about his presidency.Slatersteven (talk) 11:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

However I am not seeing where we have a section on Trump about unfitness for office due to health.Slatersteven (talk) 11:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Let us avoid drawing false equivalencies. There is no section on Trump's dementia, because there isn't much talk about such a thing. There is, however, a long section on False statements, for the simple reason that Trump is known for making plenty of statements that numerous sources checked and considered to have been false. So I think this is fine. As for Alan Jones not being medically trained - well, he doesn't have to be in order to qualify here. If you look at Donald Trump#Allegations of inciting violence, then the sources there are not by criminologists or professional lawyers. Potugin (talk) 11:54, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Then why raise it if it's a false equivalency (was that not what your argument was, "why do we not treat him the same as Trump?"?) And read WP:MEDRS, this is about medical diagnoses. Yes to make medical claims, the source must be qualified.Slatersteven (talk) 11:57, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Potugin, have you forgotten about the "Person Woman Man Camera TV" episode? He was talking about a cognitive test, that he took because of speculation of dementia. It's not included in Trump's article because of WP:BLP, the same reason Republican smears on Biden's mental competency are not included. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:32, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

It isn't an actual issue, it is a piece of troll advocacy by select right-wing media groups, and their fans. Zaathras (talk) 12:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

After edit conflict: I will read the policy you linked, viz. WP:MEDRS, because I was quite unaware of it. However, I presume this guideline doesn't tell us that we cannot cite a media figure (or any other relevant person) calling Biden unfit for running the country, or being incoherent, or prone to embarassing gaffes etc. A physician's estimation would be a different matter, and even this isn't difficult to source: [2]. This is quite hotly debated issue, in fact.Potugin (talk) 12:15, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

LOL "Doubts about Mr Biden’s mental health have become a right-wing talking point over the past two years.", that is the point made above, this is a manufactured "controversy" prompted by media pundits making medical judgments. Sorry but this looks more and more innaproprtate.Slatersteven (talk) 12:21, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

You really expect us to include speculation from Google? When the past 5 months in the Oval Office have provided no evidence of so-called ineptitude? And Donald Trump’s article makes no mention of alleged mental health issues or the fact that he slurs his speech. Follow BLP policy and neutrality. Trillfendi (talk) 12:22, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

What kind of straw men are you posting here? I specifically said that Trump article includes lots of unflattering material on controversial aspects of him (like his endless false statements). This is indeed the very essence of "Follow[ing] BLP policy and neutrality". I agree! However, I don't see why it should be any different here. Is there a rule that we are allowed to cite "media pundits" (Slatersteven) when they criticize Trump's false statements, but we aren't allowed to do so when they criticize Biden (like Alan Jones did, and Howie Carr etc. - see above!), say, for constantly mixing things up and revealing other embarassing signs of unfitness? OK, I'll let others speak, too now. BBL.Potugin (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

It's not different, this is about specific information, which we do not also have in Trump's article. If you want to add criticisms about his policies OK, fine. If you add to add a section about his social media activity, OK go ahead, Same with approval ratings. IN fact, I will start it off.Slatersteven (talk) 12:35, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

So now you can start to add the SAME kind of information we have on Trump's page.Slatersteven (talk) 12:39, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Why do you need to change your line so often? First it was about RS's. When it proved to be not such an arduous task, you added WP:MEDRS. This, too, isn't a mission impossible really. And now it's about "Same kind of information" once again. Why? These a very different politicans with different upsides and different downsides. And different issues of controversy. Maybe we 2 could now let others opine? Wish you all luck in improving the article with approval ratings struff.Potugin (talk) 12:44, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Medrs is part of RS.Slatersteven (talk) 12:48, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

I know that CNN (and other pro-Democratic media, like BBC news) brought up Section #4 of the 25th amendment several times, during the Trump administration. No doubt, Fox news (and other pro-Republican media, like Sky news) are bringing up the same topic, during the Biden administration. GoodDay (talk) 14:37, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

It's not included because it's a political smear. Sure, he's older and slower now, but examining his extemporaneous speech shows no signs of dementia, only occasional gaffes that anyone might make except they're more visible because of his prominence, and right-wing media pounce on every one of them and they go viral in their echo chamber, and Google picks it up creating the illusion that "everyone's talking about it so there must be something to it," creating yet another fake scandal. Same as it ever was. soibangla (talk) 15:29, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

It's a distraction to argue about Biden's mental state, since per synthesis, we cannot use our own speculations. The relevant policy is weight, which requires significant discussion in reliable sources before inclusion. Reliable sources exclude Fox News, the Daily Mail and opinion pieces, even if published in high quality news sources. But this issue has received little or no coverage. While it may be that the media is biased, that is not an issue we can consider. If you want this article to include speculation on dementia, you have to wait until it becomes an issue in mainstream reputable media. TFD (talk) 17:33, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

On June 18th, the Washington Post had a story about Joe Biden being accused of 'mental impairment', citing a 'white house physician' [3] the same event was also reported on by USA today [4] and The Independent [5]

March 19th, the New York Post published an article claiming stories about his health were 'ignored by press' [6]

On February 8th, an opinion in Newsweek urged him to 'discuss his mental state' [7]

The newspaper "The Hill" invited a panel discussing "Joe Biden's mental health should be on the table" [8]

The New York Times, however, referred to 'a narrative being crafted by conservative news media that he is lacking in his mental facilities.' [9]

Apologies if these are not reliable sources / otherwise not helpful to the discussion you've had, I'm not very familiar with US media. On the surface it appears to me that this is a topic of lively debate in mainstream publications.

Kaidaniel (talk) 22:08, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

NY Post is not reliable. Opinion pieces in here aren't reliable except possibly for opinions of the author but then WP:WEIGHT comes into play. The only possible story here is that a false narrative is being created by far right media but this isn't the article to include that info, as it's a general level one. Volunteer Marek 22:20, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

as I understand it, who started the narrative and its veracity are immaterial as long as it is discussed in reputable sources, but as I understand you maybe this should be included only if it turns out to prompt more publications. Kaidaniel (talk) 23:01, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

It will never be included, in the sense of "the president is mentally impaired", as there is not and has never been a story there. The notable aspect here is the right-wing smear campaign that has been invented around the false narrative of "the president is mentally impaired". Zaathras (talk) 00:25, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

A WP:BLP concern like this requires a high degree of sensitivity. ... the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. Also keep in mind that that "white house physician" is Ronny Jackson, who turned nakedly partisan even before he was forced to withdraw from his Cabinet nomination. Ronny Jackson's opinion is meaningless. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The WaPo, USAToday and Independent stories are about Ronny Jackson, Trump's physician who is now a Republican Texas congressman who said Trump "might live to be 200 years old." soibangla (talk) 00:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

I would say "Mr Biden has dementia" can definitely not be supported by reputable sources, however "there has been controversy about... Dr J has alleged... Mr Biden has denied... " arguably could be. (Similar to the example about a politician being accused (but not proven) of having an affair mentioned in Wikipedia:BLPPUBLIC.) Incidentally, this is how I came here myself, I was reading about Ronny Jackson and wondered 'sounds like an extreme partisan view, let's see if wikipedia could help me understand' and then I thought about making an edit explaining facts. Seems like wikipedians disagree so maybe best to leave it at that. Kaidaniel (talk) 20:53, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

The section about political views needs an update

It seems rather amateur that the entire section consists of apparently random ratings by politically motivated groups and think tanks. In light of his lifelong tenure in the Senate and, more importantly, his presidency, it is more appropriate to scholarly analyze (or present previous analyses of) his actions and words. The ratings are hollow and meaningless to the non-American reader whose conception of the terms “liberal” and “conservative” might be inconsistent with the American standards. They should occupy minimal space in the already politically charged and difficult to handle section. This improvements would make it suitable for Wikipedia and its high standards. 109.66.6.108 (talk) 13:22, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Seems fair.Slatersteven (talk) 13:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Created new related article - Early life and career of Joe Biden

Modeled after Early life and career of Barack Obama and many other "early life" articles, I've just created the page and would welcome everyone's help in improving it. The content was taken mostly from earlier versions of this page, before the 'Early life' section was trimmed down to its current size. Since I agree that this page's section should not be further expanded, it seemed reasonable to have a separate page where we can go into more detail. I've added some hatnotes to this article linking the new one. Ganesha811 (talk) 13:47, 23 June 2021 (UTC)