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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Hellsepp (talk | contribs) at 18:12, 7 December 2021 (→Kristubhagavatam: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good articleSanskrit was one of the Language and literature good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 10, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
September 14, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
April 17, 2007Good article nomineeListed
June 8, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
October 20, 2014Good article nomineeNot listed
February 1, 2016Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Delisted good article

RfC on usage of "impact"

Given that the usage of the word impact is figurative in all instances in the article and is prefaced or otherwise surrounded by language that conveys "significance", should the instances of the word be reworded?

  • Option A: Yes, the word impact means "a significant/marked influence" or "to influence significantly" and/or is jargon, so having the words significantly, etc. is redundant. Reword the instances of impact to be effect/influence and/or affect/influence so that words like "significantly" are no longer redundant.
  • Option B: Yes, the language conveying "significance" should be removed since that is implied in using the words impact.
  • Option C: No, there is no problem with the way things are currently worded.

—Getsnoopy (talk) 09:14, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the choice of the word "impact" is not particularly felicitous, especially in the area of cultural influences. This is mainly because "impact" in its figurative usage obviously tends to connote a violent, intense and instantaneous effect, owing to the original usage of "impact", which tends to refer to "balistical" type of events. I also see that there is much dispute in academia about the appropriatenesse of this word in literary usage (the noun and the verb), so it is probably best avoided. More subtle words such as "influence" are much more appropriate in this context, illustrating diffuse and delicate cultural phenomena developping over the centuries. This will be my only comment here, as I do not intend to be drawn into a sterile, far-fetched argument over minutiae. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 09:51, 11 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Delicate" cannot be applied to the world's oldest form of apartheid, racism, and semi-slavery that began in South Asia with the arrival of Sanskrit and the Indo-Aryans. No event in India of later vintage, the arrival of the Turkic-Muslims or the British came anywhere near creating the kind of trauma Sanskrit did for the vast majority of South Asia's population. As the migrating Indo-Aryans (on their fabled domesticated horses and chariots) were mostly males, they also began the world's oldest surviving forms of institutionalized misogyny (female infanticide, dowry, and a taboo on widow remarriage) in order to monopolize privilege and property rights. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS Sanskrit above = archaic Sanskrit Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:41, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Mr F., it's not that kind of "impact" I had in mind when talking about the impact of a language on other languages. Dr F, maybe you can advise Mr F to strike out the erratic rambling from this discussion among grown-ups (take this from someone who sang his children to sleep in the language of Hitler, Eichmann and Mengele). –Austronesier (talk) 15:37, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I know you did not have that kind of impact in mind, but to misquote Shakespeare, how many moments hence shall these your noble words be reinterpreted in states unborn and accents yet unknown. I wasn't rambling, by the way, but being perfectly serious. The Indo-Aryan migration did have a cataclysmic impact on the ancestors of what today are the lower castes in India and women, which together comprise 85% of India's population, if not more. Sanskrit, or its progenitor language(s), did not themselves cause the pain, but it was part of a culture that did:
Quotes from Tim Dyson's A Population History of India, OUP, 2019
the settlement of the Ganges basin by Indo-Aryan-speaking people was an extremely long and arduous process. The texts of the Vedas refer to Arya victories over dasas, their darker-skinned enemies. And the process of settlement well may well have involved driving communities out, appropriating women, and the enslavement of pre-existing peoples. (p. 11) ... Accordingly, as tribal societies were encountered by the expanding Indo-Aryan societies, so the evolving caste system provided a framework within which—invariably at a low level—tribal people could be placed. ... the Aranyachará (i.e. forest people) were grouped with the most despised castes. (p. 19) ... the results of genetic research can be seen as tentatively consistent with some of the conclusions from linguistic research. In particular, and broadly mirroring the contrasting Indo-Aryan and Dravidian language distributions, most of the subcontinent’s people appear to be characterized by various degrees of mixing of two major and genetically distinct populations (as well as other elements). These have been called the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) respectively. In genetic terms, the former are relatively closely related to populations living in the Middle East, Central Asia, and Europe. Relatedly, levels of ANI ancestry are appreciably greater among people who speak Indo-Aryan languages and people from higher castes. Notice that these indications are at least consistent with the suggestion that the caste system was most fully developed by people who lived in the north, and that the southward spread of a heightened system of caste involved the progressive incorporation of pre-existing peoples at lower levels. ... The evolution of Indo-Aryan society in the centuries before c.200 bce not only saw increased segregation with respect to caste, it also seems to have seen increased differentiation with respect to gender. Arya kinship was patrilineal—i.e. descent was reckoned through the male line. As perhaps might be anticipated, then, women were seen as inferior. ... later Sanskrit texts (e.g. the Mahabharata) contain clear signs of female abuse. Therefore, by the time of the Mauryan Empire the position of women in mainstream Indo-Aryan society seems to have deteriorated. Customs such as child marriage and dowry were becoming entrenched;65 and a young women’s purpose in life was to provide sons for the male lineage into which she married. (pp. 19-20). ... Practices such as female infanticide and the neglect of young girls were possibly also developing at this time, especially among higher caste people. Further, due to the increasingly hierarchical nature of the society, marriage was possibly becoming an even more crucial institution for childbearing and the formalization of relationships between groups. In turn, this may have contributed to the growth of increasingly instrumental attitudes towards women and girls (who moved home at marriage). It is important to note that, in all likelihood, these developments did not affect people living in large parts of the subcontinent—such as those in the south, and tribal communities inhabiting the forested hill and plateau areas of central and eastern India.67 That said, these deleterious features have continued to blight Indo-Aryan speaking areas of the subcontinent until the present day. (p. 20).)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:19, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Across a large part of the subcontinent, this has resulted in what Freud might have called identification with the aggressor. No one wants to chuck the caste system (except some in South India and some Buddhist Dalits; and perhaps Dalits generally because they remain socially walled out); they only want to move up it. The endogamy and social exclusion still thrive, even if the economic stratification has ameliorated somewhat. But since I respect you, and you know about Austro-Asiatic languages, whose ancient speakers were at the receiving end of Sanskrit's violent "impact," I have struck my previous comment. I've been in academics too long; I never say anything unless it is sourced. It is now in plain sight. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:24, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Tim Dyson, Professor Emeritus of Historical Demography at LSE gave the keynote address that the UN Population Conference in New York a few years ago. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:32, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"The texts of the Vedas refer to Arya victories over dasas, their darker-skinned enemies." Absolute nonsense. This Tim Dyson seems confused between dasa(servent) with dasyu(enemy). WP:FRINGE 103.76.82.105 (talk) 07:57, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Same word. The "servant" meaning comes from their subservience to the Aryans. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 09:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support using "influence" if it will improve the article Spudlace (talk) 06:13, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And who will bell the cat? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:45, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Fowler&fowler: I would not support diminishing the traumas of apartheid or psychology of language and identity but the current uses are routine things like "significantly impacted Sanskrit's morphological system". The RfC outcome would not be construed to prevent future uses of the word "impact" for the impacts on people. Spudlace (talk) 07:00, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Spudlace: That's a smart comment. I have just realized that I have not read the RfC's statement. I have assumed it is a continuation of the more general (and fruitless) discussion of the previous sections. The nominator had been opposing the use of "impact," noun or verb, in any context. His new oppose seems to be of the collocation "significant impact," and its verb forms, limited now to the context of this article. I don't know if this means he has accepted "lasting impact" in the lead, but, regardless, there is only one way to settle the dispute, and that is by examining if those expressions appear in reliable sources, especially the scholarly ones, in the context of Sanskrit, and more generally the classical link languages. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:58, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PS And that I propose to do very soon as rigorously as I can. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:59, 23 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option C per Fowler&fowler's and my comments above. But I suggest to trim down the triple use of the verb "impact"; it's the repetitive occurrence here which makes it stylistically problematic. (It becomes "jargon" when readers feel that an author has a restricted expressive repertory that mostly consists of catchwords).
As for the arguments in Option A and B: to use "lasting" and "significant" with "impact" is not a tautology, but just adds emphasis where "lasting effect/influence" or "significant effect/influence" is too weak. And in the current case of the noun in the lede, it is too weak, as can be seen from two trivia from SE Asia (the region I know best):
  1. The official name of Bangkok (Krung Thep Maha Nakhon...) is almost completely made up of Sanskrit loanwords with a few splashes of Pali; the only non-Indic component is krung.
  2. Indonesian has tons of loanwords from Sanskrit: many of these already entered during the early history of Malay (on which Indonesian is based), but many others were sucessfully coined by language planners after independence post-WWII. At that time (more than 400 years(!) after the collapse of Majapahit, the last major Hindu kingdom in the archipelago), Sanskrit was felt as a "neutral" heritage language which could be tapped as source to create neologisms so that the new national language would be neither overly "westernized" (as opposed by Muslim elites), nor too "Arabized" (as feared by the non-Muslim minorities).
A general comment about style guides as "WP:RS": every statement in this encyclopedia should be verifiable, have due weight in the given context, and be written in a way that is comprehensible and stylistically acceptable for a general audience. For WP:V and WP:WEIGHT/WP:NPOV, we indeed rely on external reliable sources, but comprehensibilty and style are a matter of editorial judgement by the collective of WP users. It is a personal choice to have your stylistic judgement shaped by exisiting external style guides, but pointing at style guides doesn't add additional weight to your personal preference.
So while "impact" may be generally frowned upon in certain circles because of its excessive use in other circles (which is amply verified by citations from usage guides in the above discussion), we are nevertheless free to use it where it deems us apt, especially when we are in good company, as the attestations in this search show. Yes, some of these results indeed do belong the category of heavily jargonized texts, but in most previews I do not get the impression that the use of the phrase "had a lasting/significant impact on" will be felt as a stumbling stone by average readers, nor that it necessarily carries the connotation of a "violent, intense and instantaneous effect".
–Austronesier (talk) 11:24, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As this RfC is about trivia in the first place, I would like to add to your examples of trivia from Southeast Asia where I too have traveled in my day. The regnal name of the late King of Thailand was Aduldej Bhomibol (cf Sanskrit: Atulya (incomparable) tej (brightness) bhumi (earth) pal (keeper, ruler)). When the current king (Vajiralongkorn) was not in the royal family's good graces a couple of decades ago, his younger sister Princess Sirindhorn began to be groomed for a greater role and was given the title of "Mahachakri" (cf Sanskrit: Maha (great) chakra (wheel, but in this instance of Dharma)). When the princess drives to Hotel Erawan (cf Sanskrit Airawat, Indra's elephant), she might first find herself being driven on Wireless Road, the official Thai name of which is Thanon Withayut (cf Sanskrit vidyut = electricity). Thailand is a Buddhist monarchy. Nearby Indonesia is a Muslim-majority nation. Among the elite is their former president Megawati Sukarnoputri (cf Sanskrit: megha (cloud) wati (-like, -with qualities of) putri (daughter)), who is the daughter of Indonesia's founding father Sukarno, and a Muslim. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:32, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bhūmi·bala Atulya·teja - earth-power unparalleled brightness - is perhaps the grandest name one can hope to have. And the Thais have form in raiding Sanskrit lexicon for grand names - let's start with the full name of Bangkok!
BTW, I had added some interesting examples of Southeast Asian Sanskrit use to the main page, but my edits were reverted, because quoting Wiktionary was deemed OR!! Dyḗwsuh₃nus (talk) 12:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier: to use "lasting" and "significant" with "impact" is not a tautology One could argue that "lasting" might not be, but "significant" is. That's exactly the definition of the word impact: "a marked/significant influence". Merely claiming that things like the WP style guide, let alone external style guides, are subject to personal preference does not make it so. Writing "significant impact" is like writing "ATM machine" or "Indian chai tea latte". Getsnoopy (talk) 21:24, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Manual of Style regulates a lot of things, but per default not choice of words (I think that's what Vanamonde93 meant when they advised to get the MOS amended first). MOS:VOCAB and MOS:Words to watch provide some caveats, but do not subscribe to prescriptivism.
"Impact" means "impact". A dictionary definition is by its very nature auxilliary and descriptive: the word exists before its entry. The dictionary definition is not an absolute tool to parse a word and interpret it into its "true components", which would then restrict e.g. the choice of modifiers to a noun because of a double occurrence of an adjective after "parsing" of the noun. Editors of academic publishing houses obviously not do restrict their approach to language in such a way, otherwise we wouldn't have numerous attestations of these purported tautologies. Btw, what's wrong with ATM machine or LCD display? –Austronesier (talk) 08:02, 22 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Austronesier: The definitions in a dictionary, while not prescriptive, are sources which serve as a benchmark for how words are meant to be used. If they weren't, then citing them as a reference anywhere, let alone on WP, would be pointless as per your argument, seeing as people can invent any interpretation of any word. Case in point: per se (or even "per say") to mean "particularly" rather than its actual definition, "in and of itself". Unless you're also advocating for the former as a valid outcome, especially on WP, this argument does not carry much weight, especially on WP where decisions are guided by reliable sources. Your argument seems to be that if someone somewhere has used it (including in academic sources), it must be proper usage. The problem with this reasoning is the assumption that academic sources cannot make editorial mistakes, which I've seen far too many instances of to know better. ATM machine, LCD display, and Indian chai tea latte are instances where the user of these terms clearly does not know the meaning of the core terms in question and amount to tautology. It's akin to saying "kill someone dead". They do not belong in formal speech, and they surely do not belong on WP.Getsnoopy (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, the assumption that you somehow have the ground truth because of your vivid and grandiloquent descriptions of mere claims you are making; that is exactly what advances arguments on WP. Getsnoopy (talk) 21:24, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I should also add that the MOS specifically recommends against using contested vocabulary, where it lists "impact" as one such word, so this RFC might be moot anyway. Getsnoopy (talk) 00:35, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Option C - "influence" and "effect" are rather too weak replacements for "significant impact." What is meant by the former is simply not of the same degree as what is meant by the latter. As for the word "significant" being superfluous or redundant or unnecessary with impact, I strongly disagree. In this case usage, the phrase "significant impact" almost functions as a single lexeme in and of itself - that is to say, though they be two separate words, they function as a single unit of meaning; to write that something "had an impact" without any qualifier for the word impact would be an almost meaningless statement.

Do note, that which I describe above is not something that you can determine from reading the dictionary entries for these words, but this describes general normal language usage, which ought to be followed in articles. Firejuggler86 (talk) 02:09, 24 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Firejuggler86: this describes general normal language usage, which ought to be followed in articles Does this mean WP articles will use phrases like per se (or even "per say") to mean "particularly", and the like? Who determines what normal usage is? And how does one settle disputes using reliable sources if someone disagrees with another?
to write that something "had an impact" without any qualifier for the word impact would be an almost meaningless statement. I think what you mean is that you interpret it as such, which is therefore your (albeit controversial) opinion. It's another matter that almost no source would agree with you. Getsnoopy (talk) 22:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spudlace: Many apologies for not furnishing the evidence I had promised in my interchange with you. This RfC, sputtering along as it has been for two months, went off my spheres of attention. The expressions "lasting impact" and "significant impact" are both used in the context of scholarly studies in Sanskrit. Here are just four examples.. Michael Witzel is the Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard, Patrick Olivelle is a Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Religions at the University of Texas, Austin; Aloka Parasher-Sen is Professor of History at the University of Hyderabad, India, where she is also Dean of the School of Social Sciences; and Kim Plofker is an Associate Professor of Mathematics at Union College; her magnum opus is Mathematics in India, Princeton University Press, 2009.

  • Witzel, Michael (2006). "Brahmanical Reactions to Foreign Influences and to Social and Religious Change". In Patrick Olivelle (ed.). Between the Empires: Society in India 300 BCE to 400 CE. Oxford University Press. p. 460. ISBN 978-0-19-977507-1. Persian cultural influence on India, including that emanating from the Near East, is visible in some new ideas in public administration, road building, town planning, public buildings, and Persian eclectic art, that is seen in Asoka's pillar capitals. However, the most important and lasting imact was the introduction of writing in Gandhara and the Panjab.
  • Parasher-Sen, Aloka (2006). "Naming and Social Exclusion: The Outcast and the Outsider". In Patrick Olivelle (ed.). Between the Empires: Society in India 300 BCE to 400 CE. Oxford University Press. p. 437. ISBN 978-0-19-977507-1. It is pointed out that whereas in the Vedic context of the Atharva Veda the suprahumans were conceived of as spirits of life, fertility, and joy that were eternally free, a new dimension was added to these interactions with humans when these spirits were assimilated into the narrative of the epics. ... In the Ramayana, the forest spirits are unequivocally represented as evil forces that have to be totally eradicated and destroyed. ... The sojourn of the brahmanas and ksatriyas in the forest and their interaction with these suprahuman spirits had a significant psychosocial impact during later centuries.
  • Plofker, Kim (2007). "Mathematics in India". In Victor J. Katz, Annette Imhausen (ed.). The Mathematics of Egypt, Mesopotamia, China, India, and Islam: A Sourcebook. Princeton University Press. pp. 504–. ISBN 0-691-11485-4. Foreign sciences became more and more widespread in India during this period, and had a sporadic but significant impact on mathematical sciences in Sanskrit
  • Plofker, Kim (2009). Mathematics in India. Princeton University Press. pp. 277–. ISBN 0-691-12067-6. While astrolabes and zij-style tables had a significant impact on the practice of second-millennium Sanskrit astronomy, other aspects of Islamic mathematical science apparently produces no detectable effects.
  • In other words, the noun "impact" preceded by intensifying or amplifying adjectives "significant," "lasting" or others, does see use in scholarly studies in Sanskrit by the best-known scholars. There are many other examples, which I won't importune you with. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:06, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Close

@SpacemanSpiff: Please note that this RfC began on March 11. It is now nearly two months later. There is no consensus that the expression "significant impact," "lasting impact," is either syntactically unsound or stylistically frowned upon. Could you or some other admin @Vanamonde93: (who engaged Getsnoopy upstairs), please close the RfC? As you will see, in this history, after Firejugller86's post of March 24, no one has posted other than the nominator and my response now to Spudlace above. In my count, three editors (Austronesier, Firejuggler86 and I) have voted for Option C (no change in phrasing). Two (user:Pat and the nominator) have voted for option A; and one (Spudlace) has said, "Support using "effect" if it will improve the article. Howsoever you parse the last, there is no consensus for a change. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:06, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Fringe territory"

@TrangaBellam: Regarding this edit diff, what exactly you found to be a Questionable sources including conf. papers, and Hindutva propagandists. Fringe territory? Reception in computing, unlike S. Asia, doesn't fit into your idea of "hindutva" framework. These are scientific papers with well presented results, unlike scholarships in S. Asian history. —Wiki Linuz ( 💬 ) 19:48, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One step back: what has this to do with Sanskrit? This is an article about the language, not about the history and impact of its grammatical description. Maybe it is due in Pāṇini, with some pruning of sources as indicated by TrangaBellam. –Austronesier (talk) 20:55, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
These are scientific papers with well-presented results, unlike scholarships in S. Asian history. - While I do not work in NLP, I teach statistics in university for a living and have a fair idea of recognizing valid scholarship (and their impact) in science. Crying hoarse about scholarship in S. Asian history won't help.
You cannot cite conference papers which are hardly cited by anybody - including a 40-year-old article and of all people, Subhash Kak - claiming Sanskrit to be something extraordinary unless tertiary scholarship supports such an assessment. I checked a few textbooks, taught at the undergrad and postgrad level in reputed universities, and failed to find anything on Sanskrit. If I am wrong, disprove me and insert back at our article on Sanskrit grammar. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
hardly cited by anybody, actually no; the sources that I cited through Gérard Huet or Rick Briggs's works have a major reception in computational linguistics. The other papers adds upon this structure through analyzing and unit testing the specialized NLP models and featuring the results. And I don't understand how publishing year of the theoretical modeling matters, given that, Turing machines are cited till date for obvious reasons. I don't know which reputed universities' texts you're referring to, but “text books” in computer science doesn't exactly play the same role as it does in mathematics or history. The models, specifically in computer science, are presented through scholarly research conferences or papers through reliable medium like IEEE, ACM and such (and usually implemented from there on), and doesn't necessarily be presented in a text book. Not sure why you'd detract Kak's work on this, given that he's a trained scientist, although the material isn't primarily sourced from him. However, I consent that it best fits Sanskrit grammar. Given this, the materials cited in relevance to NLP doesn't violate the policies. —Wiki Linuz ( 💬 ) 23:33, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bloomfield was a linguist, writing in the 1930s when there were no computers, not a computer scientist. Your text is WP:SYNTHESIS. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:02, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, thanks for pointing that out, Joshua Jonathan. It turns out, I did mess things up when sourcing from multiple publications. I'm rewriting it from scratch, I'll submit it for inclusion before committing the change to mainspace. —Wiki Linuz ( 💬 ) 05:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@WikiLinuz: The article Sanskrit grammar is mostly descriptive, and we don't have an article that is dedicated to the history and theory of the grammatical description of Sanskrit, so I still think the article Pāṇini is the best place to elaborate about the impact of Pāṇini's work. As for Bloomfield, Kak is not the best source to cite. Apart from him being ideologically tunnel-visioned, he is simply not a linguist. So I suggest to let the actual experts speak, e.g.
It's partly accessible on Google Books, but I'm sure you can get the full paper via Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange/Resource Request. This paper by Murray Barnson Emeneau is a bit old, but nevertheless also very enlightening.
As for NLP, you should avoid put the cart before the horse. E.g. Huet's case study indeed cites the long descriptive tradition of Sanskrit sandhi rules, but AFAICS his theoretical apparatus is not developed out of these rules; but rather, the practical implementation is just fed by these rules. –Austronesier (talk) 10:00, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Recognised minority language in South Africa"

It seems a bit misleading to list South Africa as recognizing Sanskrit as a minority language in the infobox. What the constitution says is that the national language board must promote respect for languages used for religious purposes such as Sanskrit. That seems distinct from recognizing it as a minority language, and so I feel that it should be removed from the infobox (was added in August) 157.157.113.198 (talk) 08:55, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have any actual figures? I know that Sanskrit is taught in some schools. St James in Durban springs to mind. I shouldn't imagine that too many of the students have the sort of background that would see them use Sanskrit for religious purposes. --Pete (talk) 09:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spoken contemporarily

Sanskrit is still used in India by native speakers.[1][2][3][4] Egon20 (talk) 09:58, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Egon20: Please read the text of the lead carefully and the references cited therein. The judgments of Sanskrit's demise are those of some of the foremost experts of the language. As for attempts at revival, which are what you have cited, those are all hopes, fond hopes. They come and go. Sanskrit has been a sleeping beauty language among the right-wing Hindu nationalists in India for years. When they come in power, the numbers of native speakers miraculously jump with many more males than females, which would be very odd for a "mother tongue," given that women statistically give birth to the same number of male babies as females. Generally, to be a native speaker, such as say an English-speaking child in Blue River, Wisconsin, your environment of social exchange needs to be English-speaking, the pastor, the choir, the butcher, the baker, the grocer, the neighbors, the extended family, and your parents, especially the primary caregiver in childhood, which has historically been the mother. For the mother to have the felicity of native speakers, who are generally able to think and speak in full clauses, takes time, at least a generation. That has not happened yet with Sanskrit. Those who call themselves native speakers, are attempting to align themselves with the prestige of the language (as the lead states). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:54, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Which reminds me that there's still an important source that hasn't been tapped for this article yet (Wire is good, De Gruyter Mouton is better). –Austronesier (talk) 11:24, 26 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kristubhagavatam

It's not without interest that Sanskrit has left its traces even in Christianity [[1]] --Hellsepp (talk)

  1. ^ https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/travel/destinations/a-village-where-locals-speak-only-sanskritmattur-in-karnataka/photostory/82595449.cms#:~:text=Welcome%20to%20Mattur%20(or%20Mathur,of%20Sanskrit%20for%20daily%20communication.
  2. ^ https://www.cntraveller.in/story/mattur-village-karnataka-speaks-sanskrit/
  3. ^ https://www.ndtv.com/karnataka-news/karnataka-mattur-the-only-village-in-india-that-still-speaks-sanskrit-1847533
  4. ^ https://detechter.com/seven-sanskrit-speaking-villages-in-india/
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