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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 93.103.223.236 (talk) at 00:00, 5 April 2022 (→‎Video of mass grave being filled from mid-March). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Was it the Chechnyans?

Maybe it was Kadyrov's group? They were in Bucha. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-04/ukraine-accuses-russia-of-massacre-city-strewn-with-bodies/100963106 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.213.214.140 (talk) 06:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC) https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18105417/chechen-soldiers-ukraine-war-russia-vladimir-putin-ramzan-kadyrov/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.213.214.140 (talk) 06:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There were eyewitness accounts from the people living there, and none of them have said it was Chechens. Also, there were a lot of Russian dead bodies recovered, none were Chechen as far as I know. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've at the very least read one eyewitness testimony in this article by Reuters - https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-street-corpse-with-hands-bound-bullet-wound-head-2022-04-03/ - that she thought some of them were Chechens.
Quoting: 'She said a fighter with the Russian forces who she believed was from Russia's semi-autonomous Chechnya region warned he would "cut us up." She did not say how she knew he was Chechen.'
Furthermore, a lot of testimonies refer to them as "Russian troops" - this could potentially mean either group. But similarly, the article doesn't currently attribute the deaths to any specific group within the Russian military. 212.187.165.227 (talk) 10:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Chechen fighters did not appear to have any special role in this event. If they were there, they didn't do anything special. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 12:52, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ukraine has thousands of Chechen immigrants, so she could well be able to recognize a Chechen person.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 19:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Independent sources?

Is it truly 100% confirmed it was the russians or it's just alleged?

Could it be a case of Atrocity propaganda? BlackYaroslav (talk) 04:49, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The residents have confirmed it, including eye witness accounts given to Human rights watch and various reporters, including Reutuers. I mean, the twon was under Russian occupation, so who else was it going to be? Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:51, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Playing devil's advocate, some photos could be easily staged. Specially the ones of civilians with their hands tied behind their back. Given that it's in Ukraine best interest to increase western involvement in the war, and the previous pro-ukrainian stories that have been debunked, i'd say there's reason for skepticism. BlackYaroslav (talk) 05:00, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Plenty of reputable, independent journalistic sources are backing this up. While it's possible it's all an elaborate hoax, there's no reason to believe and edit under that assumption at present. We can rewrite the article when and if that comes to pass. It's a current event and things will no doubt change significantly over the coming days. We can certainly include caveats, where necessary, to that effect. ThirdDolphin (talk) 05:44, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Are we saying the Ukrainian army got dead bodies, tied their hands behind their backs, shot them in the head, and then littered them all over the streets of Bucha to make it look like the Russians did it? Because if we are, no sources are saying that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:16, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no evidence at this point this was committed by Russian forces. This could be either side, and as such is alleged. There is no image or video confirming the Russian Army did this, and no court has ruled on this. The word of journalists and local residents is not a trustworthy source. Desuwulf (talk) 19:34, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong on that, sorry. We do trust journalism, if published in media satisfying WP:RS. Jeppiz (talk) 19:42, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, news sources can be reliable, per WP:NEWSORG. — Newslinger talk 07:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I saw only fresh corpses. but russian troops starts to retreat 3-4 days ago. Ukranian political and information space is tottaly cleaned from any different opinions so there is no point to believe any allegations from them. 46.187.84.238 (talk) 14:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russian retreat was covered by artillery, the place is infested with mines all over and saboteurs are everywhere. It is not a 30-minute walk to re-enter the occupied town. There are hundreds of dead bodies and it takes TIME to find them, document and identify. All this process is witnessed by independent media. And how do you define "freshness" in video? Ганнуся (talk) 15:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is there any evidence that the artillery fired from the Russian side and did not cover the advance of the Ukrainian forces? By the way, if saboteurs were left there, then why risk shelling the territory in which they are located? As far as I know, in Kyiv, a considerable number of civilians were killed by mistake by territorial defense. Also, white armbands were seen on some of the civilians killed in Bucha. 46.187.84.238 (talk) 16:38, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't answer the question - how do you define "freshness" in video? Ганнуся (talk) 18:07, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Livor mortis. Skin changes color. If dark spots appear on the skin of the fingers, then it passed about a day. After a week, the skin acquires a common dark yellowish tint. 46.187.84.238 (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also add that there was posted a video by a Ukrainian soldier from the BOATSMAN BOYS in Bucha where he discussed with a fellow solider if it was acceptable to shoot civilians without blue armbands and got a reply "Yes, for sure". He already removed this video but it is there in some (yes, pro-Russian) channels. E.g. here https://t.me/swodki/59478 5.228.35.252 (talk) 21:24, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't discuss any video from propagandists' channels. Ганнуся (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also sorry but you need to, cause otherwise you will not build the full picture of this terrible event.
Please notice that the video I'm referring to was recorded by a Ukranian patriot. It was only shared by the propagandists' channels. So I'd be glad to know your opinion on it. 5.228.35.252 (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I also do not open any propagandists' channels due to personal security reason. Ганнуся (talk) 21:50, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
0:46 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5zEmbGVcYA this man was killed around 24-48 hours. This video from media that banned in Russia. Is this a sufficiently independent media for your non-totalitarian country? 46.187.84.238 (talk) 22:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Check this page to see why and how much they are questionable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
It is extensive and with many elements.
"Its founder, Robert Bernstein, accused the organization of poor research methods and relying on "witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers."
"According to The Times, HRW "does not always practice the transparency, tolerance and accountability it urges on others." The Times accused HRW of imbalance, alleging that it ignores human-rights abuses in certain regimes while covering other conflict zones (notably Israel) intensively. "
"In May 2014 an open letter was published criticising Human Rights Watch for what were described as its close ties to the government of the United States. The letter was signed by Nobel Peace Laureates Adolfo Pérez Esquivel and Mairead Corrigan, former UN Assistant Secretary-General Hans von Sponeck, United Nations Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Richard A. Falk, and over 100 scholars and cultural figures."
And so on. Exolind (talk) 06:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Reuters compromised itself many times. Russian troops left Bucha on 30th of March and there were no corpses according to photos. The next day a video was made with Ukrainian soldier calling to shoot people with white bandages (civilians). And finally on 4th of April Ukrainians shoot a video with corpses that a 24-48 hours dead. How do you think, who killed them? Vladkras (talk) 09:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There was a scene of mass atrocities, and this was definitely done by the Russians. It could be possible that some stories were exaggerated, but overall there was a series of major war crimes. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, there is nothing "definit" in the fog of war.
Ukrainian National Police was / is cleaning up Bucha from the supporters of Russia and it might have led to a set of very tragic events which might explain that many bodies have white armbands (meaning pro-Russian). 5.228.35.252 (talk) 22:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Human Right Watchs has already been mentioned by many as a questionable source with a bias (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch), including its founder, prize nobel winners and many scholars. I put extracts as a reply below
- Although it's from a different source, which has to be verified, here are other versions here, with pictures, mentioned alegedly by "french journalists":
https://detv.us/2022/04/03/russian-war-reporter-on-the-real-perpetrators-of-the-bucha-massacre-rt-en/
This version shows a dead body with white armband.
It mentions russians left on March 30-31st (as confirmed by the mayor before)
That the dead bodies are "new" (or "fresh").
That some wear a russian-support white armband.
That some hold a ukrainian passport in their hand, as if trying to prove they are ukrainians (which they won't have to do if faced with russian forces, but would have to do if faced with ukrainian forces accusing them of being saboteurs, for instance).
It puts claims and evidence which can be indicative of "a massive purge" by ukrainian security forces, conducted on April 1st and 2. Exolind (talk) 06:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your detv.us link is a republication of RT (Russia Today) (RSP entry), which is a deprecated source. RT is not reliable and cannot be used in this article.
Per the talk page guidelines, the purpose of a talk page is to improve the article, and not to speculate about the article subject. To everyone on this page, please limit suggestions to claims that are supported by reliable sources, and include those sources in your comment. — Newslinger talk 07:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image licensing issues

Resolved
 – A properly licensed image was released and has been placed into the article. ThirdDolphin (talk) 03:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The image heading this article has problems with it's licensing that may lead to it being deleted: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Battle_for_Bucha_form_vokzalyna.jpg

We should consider swapping it out when a better, licensed image becomes available as this one is liable to be deleted. ThirdDolphin (talk) 06:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Allegedly" should be removed

I noticed someone placed "allegedly" in the lede "The Bucha massacre was a slaughter of civilians in the Ukrainian town of Bucha, allegedly by Russian troops involved in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine." Seriously? If civilians are dead, their hands tied behind their back, and shot in the head, who did that? Did they all do it to themselves? I have not seen any source challenge the fact it was the Russians, and there are plenty of articles that indicate it was. I move that the allegedly is removed. Deathlibrarian (talk) 07:11, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No, it should not.
Particularly when the Ukrainians have been repeatedly caught lying about such things and are waging a massive propaganda war.
Vilhelmo De Okcidento (talk) 13:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Until proven by indpendent bodies and investigation it should be kept. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 14:17, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
checkY Fixed. I also wrote it in a more neutral tone. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No reliable sources have so far suggested that it was faked, or that anyone else is responsible, except for Russia, as they were the occupying power. There is plenty of RS here to indicate it was Russia, including eye witness accounts. If anyone is proposing that some other country did this, or that it was faked, then they should bring forth some RS to support that proposition. Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As only opposing countries have done finger pointing towards the Russian Forces, and local residents are not a verified source(an extremely easy to make lie), the first sentence of the article should have "alleged" too. There is no resolution from the UN on this, there is no Court of Justice that ruled on this. Let's not take war propaganda of either side as word. Desuwulf (talk) 19:36, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Too easy to succumb to this sort of emotional appealings and early reports. It will take some time for a better secondary sources to emerge. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 23:24, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ukrainians did, videos emerged of same people on streets before that where in basement wearing white ribbons indicating they are Russia sympathizers, molested by Ukrainians, then shot dead, then dragged on streets, also on separate video filmed on same day. Also video of same street empty without bodies on same day emerged. And this is not alleged but in article we should replace Russian atrocities with Ukrainian atrocities. Loesorion (talk) 17:52, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For the time being, I think we should attribute the claims to Ukraine. Journalists and Western governments have not conducted independent verification yet. We don't know what claims are true and what information has been lost or misunderstood in the fog of war and the haste to report these alleged war crimes. RSs are beginning to avoid the "it appears"; once they fully abandon it, then we should also. Solipsism 101 (talk) 20:48, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Whether you believe it's reasonable or not, it's true that these are still alleged to be committed by Russia, not confirmed to be. AriseYeWretchedOfTheEarth (talk) 15:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Personally I think Russia was responsible. But using the term war crime suggests a formal determination through convictions in court or a determination by an international body(like the ICC). A NPOV would require us to use "alleged" for now, I think, or at l:east some way of making it clear no legal determination has been made. 331dot (talk) 23:58, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Allegedly is necessary to be on the page, because it has to be unbiased. Unless international organisations would confirm it to be Russian act, or by Russian opinions, it should be treated as "allegedly" SwampKryakwa (talk) 21:41, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Using "alleged" or "allegedly" isn't always neccessary, but it often is wise / more accurate to use it.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 22:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Determining the verbiage to use depends on a lot of factors. The word "allegedly" is typically used in criminal courts when the standard of proof is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt". However, in this article, there appears to be eye-witness testimony to support who committed the killings. In addition, this is not a court of law and many articles cite that the Russian army was the ones who committed the killings. Given the evidence and widespread coverage of the incident(s), I believe that one could make the argument to remove the term "allegedly". There have been several articles to "fact-check" the claims (see https://www.bbc.com/news/60981238) and unless there is evidence to support the contrary, the use of allegedly is not needed. Jurisdicta (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian "denial"?

I'm talking about this statement here in the Aftermath section:

Russian authorities denied that their forces had targeted civilians during the battle.[1]

The problem is the source never talks about specific Russian responses to the incident in Bucha. The closest thing I could fund in the source is this quote:

Despite the Russian authorities claiming that their forces are not targeting civilians in Ukraine, there is clear evidence of the opposite. Russian forces have repeatedly attacked densely populated residential areas of Ukraine’s cities with missiles, air bombs, and artillery.

This is only about the Russian reaction in general. Not about Bucha in specific. I've added a Failed verification tag to this claim as I can't find any evidence whatsoever that Russian officials have said this, or even made an official statement on the topic. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:42, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Defence Ministry is denying it: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-60949706?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=62498d9f4f71af55b46169bc%26Questions%20over%20Russian%20Bucha%20denials%262022-04-03T12%3A46%3A56.299Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:8c3f96fe-38ea-436a-a719-f0de64607dd6&pinned_post_asset_id=62498d9f4f71af55b46169bc&pinned_post_type=share 119.74.177.38 (talk) 14:47, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I stand corrected. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:48, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Russian denial in full is here https://t.me/MFARussia/12230 16:21, 3 April 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.124.113.102 (talk)

References

  1. ^ Rudenko, Olga (2022-04-02). "Hundreds of murdered civilians discovered as Russians withdraw from towns near Kyiv (GRAPHIC IMAGES)". The Kyiv Independent. Retrieved 2022-04-03.

Article is extremely flawed

This article has serious neutrality issues, and it also editorializes in some places, adding unsourced details which seem only to be speculative. AriseYeWretchedOfTheEarth (talk) 15:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You provide no example, so impossible to follow up on your comment. Jeppiz (talk) 18:37, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I agree.
- Human Rights Watch is mentioned a questionable source on wikipedia (see the details on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch).
- There are other versions which are explained here: https://detv.us/2022/04/03/russian-war-reporter-on-the-real-perpetrators-of-the-bucha-massacre-rt-en/ , including pictures of killed people wearing a white armband, mentioning also the dates when the russians left, and mentions of some people having an ukrainian passport in their hand when they were killed. This version has not been verified but it exists and points out to other speculative information on our current page of the Bucha massacre. Exolind (talk) 07:03, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, that detv.us link is a republication of an article from RT (Russia Today) (RSP entry), which is a deprecated source. RT is not a reliable source and cannot be used in this article. — Newslinger talk 07:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ignoring RT in this situation is pretty much biasing article towards pro-Ukrainian point of view. It should be included in a separate section talking about claims of this being possibly committed by Ukrainian side 91.193.177.154 (talk) 08:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Claims that these atrocities have been committed by Ukrainians are WP:FRINGE. This can be mentioned in one sentence, but a separate section would give those stories undue weight. BeŻet (talk) 12:28, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Undermining one side of the conflict around the topic because other side's media are much more active on it is making article biased, which should be avoided SwampKryakwa (talk) 21:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For Russian state media, TASS (RSP entry) is preferred. It and some other Russian state media sources can sometimes be used with in-text attribution to convey the Russian government's position. RT, however, has a poor reputation for accuracy and the Wikipedia community has determined that it should not be used in almost all cases. (WP:ABOUTSELF is an exception, but it is not currently applicable to this article.) — Newslinger talk 21:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Completely fake

Please don't use the talk page for general discussion. See WP:NOTAFORUM for more information.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

There is a source with analyses that explaining fake with video of staging scene - Ukrainian soldiers drag dead people on street and many more. There where videos of deputy from Butcha driving same streets before journalist on same day without bodies. Also lack of logic that Russians shell themselves and when they redeploy leaving dead bodies on streets? And dead people on streets are wearing white ribbon on arm opposite from blue of Ukrainians indicating they are Russians or Russians sympathizers.

Source that discovers this is complete fake. https://telegra.ph/Situaciya-v-Buche-CHto-bylo-na-samo-dele-04-03

In one word - Propaganda. Loesorion (talk) 17:43, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A short timeline from https://t.me/mnogonazi/7837 1) Russian MD announces full withdrawal from Bucha at march 30 2) The mayor of Bucha records a vid (see the link above) in march 31 stating there are no russian troops in the town. No bodies in this vid. None mentioned. 3) Notorious neo-nazi "the Boatsman" records a vid in Bucha at april 1-2. No bodies in this vid. None mentioned. 4) Famous ukrainian politician and former wrestler Zhan Beleniuk also records a vid about the same time. Again, no traces of bodies on the streets. 5) SUDDENLY an avalanche of "massacre" vids at april 3 in an orchestrated propaganda campaign. And i'm not even talking about all the suspicious moments in these vids.

BTW why Bucha, why not Hostomel, or Irpin, or some other town russians left? I will tell you why. Just because "Bucha" sounds similar to the english "Butcher". 95.32.198.75 (talk) 18:06, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure the Russians were really thinking of the English pronunciation of place names when they were considering whether or not to commit genocide against Ukrainians from town to town. Buttons0603 (talk) 18:12, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know what where Russians thinking but what where Ukrainians thinking with dragging dead on streets? And white ribbon suggesting on what side dead man was? I do not care for name of place but I do care for that dead man and amount of propaganda used - Ghost of Kiev, 13 "dead heroes" from Snake Island proving all to be alive and well and so on? Loesorion (talk) 18:19, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It just another wagging the dog. Remember this post when things get worse. 46.187.84.238 (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Telegram (including telegra.ph) is a self-published source, and cannot be used in the article. Wikipedia articles are required to be based on reliable sources. — Newslinger talk 18:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
uh yuh, Wiki is pretty ancient in terms of its policy. only press is allowed here, the mindset of people from 20th century 91.193.179.71 (talk) 18:37, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Reliable sources for Wikipedia's standards. Reliable book and academic sources are also accepted, among others. Telegram posts are not subject to editorial oversight, which is why they are considered generally unreliable. — Newslinger talk 18:40, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Initial evidence

As of now, the article states that the first evidence appeared on April 2nd; there is actually some from April 1st: https://twitter.com/ViktoriiaUAH/status/1509985789404459011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.51.151.111 (talk) 18:10, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Video from evening of April 1. In videos that came later, bodies have a slightly different position. There are also missing cars. Conclusion - manipulations were made over the place. 2A02:2168:8E11:D700:ADF1:4C00:3EBE:AC1 (talk) 18:23, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Twitter (RSP entry) posts are user-generated content, and cannot be cited in the article by themselves. Feel free to present reliable sources, preferably secondary sources, for this claim if they are available. — Newslinger talk 18:37, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence of the "Reports" paragraph claims: "Initial video footage following the Russian withdrawal was posted to social media on Saturday, 2 April" and cites a Washington Post article. The article, however, does not claim that. It only says: "Video posted to social media on Saturday and verified...". Shouldn't the word "initial" be removed? 212.187.165.227 (talk) 10:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Timing of the liberation of Bucha and of the first appearance of war crimes videos

Here is the proof that - against claims made by Russian officials - evidence for war crimes appeared almost immediately on the Internet after Bucha had been liberated: the official confirmation of Bucha's liberation by the AFU on the part of the mayor was released in the evening of April 1, the first time that I was able to find the mayor's statement published on Twitter was April 1, 18:54 PM Ukraine time (GMT+3) [link: https://twitter.com/ua_ridna_vilna/status/1509922162584526870?s=20&t=VlmgsAJs8SlxqcyEz2_S2w]. The two "infamous" clip of corpses lying on the roadside were, as far as I can see, first published on Twitter on April 1, 20:38 and April 1, 21:56 Ukraine time (links: https://twitter.com/__mr_M_/status/1509948421666443269?s=20&t=VlmgsAJs8SlxqcyEz2_S2w and https://twitter.com/GigaUra/status/1509966906018701318?s=20&t=VlmgsAJs8SlxqcyEz2_S2w ). Could someone of you please add this information to the article? 2A00:7C40:C200:34B:BC42:2FD3:D203:7AC8 (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK the mayor vid appeared on ukraininan TV at april 1, BUT in the vid itself he clearly says march 31 (bereznya) and also does not mention anything horrible nor looks concerned. 95.32.198.75 (talk) 21:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here is video from National Police of Ukraine from April 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7yIyNBMpQY
There are no dead bodies in the video. No people on the video are heartbroken by the "massacre". Why? Maybe because the performance has not been staged yet? FrozenWalrus (talk) 07:12, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Why?" Because on the video they move down the Shevchenko Street from the east to the center of the city. The street with corpses is Yablunska Street, which located in the south of the city. Fraunhofer UA (talk) 23:43, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also the Ukrainian National Police released this vid at april 2 in their official verified facebook page - again, no bodies shown nor mentioned!

https://www.facebook.com/UA.National.Police/videos/931477950850433/ and in case it will be deleted, it is saved here: https://t.me/sashakots/30778 (russian journalist channel) 95.32.198.75 (talk) 22:08, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make or what you are arguing should be done in regards to this article. Those links don't discredit the extensive other reporting. Ukrainian police not showing dead people in their video could be an editorial position to respect the dead for example. It's not indicative of anything. ThirdDolphin (talk) 22:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on. They would show Russian FrozenWalrus (talk) 07:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, come on. They would show Russian crimes as soon as possible. But staging the crime takes time for sure. FrozenWalrus (talk) 07:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Original research, including synthesis, is not allowed in Wikipedia articles. Please present reliable secondary sources that support your claim. — Newslinger talk 07:37, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No logical basis for the claim that the attacks were false flagged or faked.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2022

This is fake, staged footage. 'Corpses' move hands, get up. Check footage. 142.184.100.138 (talk) 20:27, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. MadGuy7023 (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unclear to me as well. This article goes through several of the 'it was staged' claims, e.g. the moving hand one turns out to be a water droplet moving across the windshield. Bother to share a source where corpses get up and move? Andreas Mastronikolis (talk) 17:19, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on lead

Should the lede be reformed, and if so, how? Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 20:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

List of some issues (in my opinion)

Long explanation: As I write the article's lead section looks like this:

In March 2022, during the Battle of Bucha in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian troops reportedly committed a massacre by summarily executing 300 civilian inhabitants of Bucha as well as committing other war crimes.

A few edits before, the lede was this:

The Bucha massacre refers to the war crimes committed by Russian troops in the Ukrainian town of Bucha during the Battle of Bucha of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.

I think the current lede is infinitely better but this lede also seems lacking. I will add the information/reasoning below:

  1. It is generally agreed (with the only exception being the Kremlin, which is, well, a partisan source) that a massacre/series of war crimes was perpetrated in Bucha when it was under Russian occupation. The extent to which this developed is unclear, however.
  2. As for the "300 deaths" estimate, the first source given in the infobox (The Moscow Times) only gives this figure when it quotes local authorities saying that 300 people had been buried inside mass graves. How do we know these people were "summarily executed"? What if some of them died of starvation or by accident? The second source given (The Siasat Daily) never gives a death toll estimate at all.
  3. By adding "reportedly", the lede implies that there may not have been a massacre, and as above, a massacre or at least some other atrocity definitely happened. Are there any WP:RS saying that a massacre didn't occur? Investigations by The Guardian and Human Rights Watch say there was.
  4. The biggest issue – The title feels clunky. The phrase "as well as committing other war crimes" feels unnatural, for instance.Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 20:55, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Until we have multiple independent sources for the number of deaths, we should not give them in WP's voice in the lede (reporting claims made by various sources is fine). An RFC seems premature here; the news coverage is changing too rapidly, by the time the RFC closes a good lede will probably look competely different. HLHJ (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The lede has already changed again. While generally supporting the RFC opener's concerns, I'd suggest that this RFC be closed for now. A lede RFC might be a good idea later. HLHJ (talk) 21:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"It is generally agreed (with the only exception being the Kremlin," - yeah, suuure. Everyone agrees from Beijing to Caracas. The only exception is the Kremlin. 95.32.198.75 (talk) 21:38, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV dispute?

In this edit, Curbon7 added a tag suggesting that there is an unresolved NPOV dispute. Please explain the dispute and what is preventing a resolution using ordinary editing, edit summaries and talk page discussions. If there is no dispute, then the tag should be removed. Boud (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not Curbon7 but I do think there is an NPOV issue. Explaining each war crime, including trivial ones that don't really progress the article, in embellished and extensive detail feels like a violation of WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. Just a few hours ago I had to remove statements in the article asserting that the incident was actually a genocide, although the only people saying such so far are politicians and not scholars. Another issue was the apparent exaggeration of minor details from the Human Rights Watch article (e.g., a passing mention of sniping is portrayed as Russian snipers engaging in regular machine-gunnings of civilians in the streets). Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 21:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Scholar Timothy Snyder has stated that Putin’s statements justifying the war and motivations are genocidal.[1][2] The Russian bombing of Ukrainian civilians, the denial of necessities of life, the attacks on humanitarian convoys, the forced deportations and filtration camp, and the arbitrary murder and rape will all be linked to this, so please don’t just arbitrarily delete mentions of genocide. —Michael Z. 14:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of those links mention Bucha once. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:41, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Michael Z, I can understand that for someone pro-russian opinions in this situations are unacceptable, but when trying to make a Wikipedia page, it has to be as unbiased as possible. just because one side claims other side's position "genocidal" doesn't mean that side should be ignore SwampKryakwa (talk) 21:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HRW confirms Russia has committed war crimes in Bucha

As Human Rights Watch reports that undeniable war crimes have been committed by the Russian military in Bucha, the claims made by some on this talk page that there's no outside report of war crimes has become moot. Similarly, the lede cannot say "reportedly" as per MOS:DOUBT. Russia committed war crimes in Bucha, that is the NPOV position based on all reliable sources we have. Jeppiz (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, see the RFC on the lede above. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 21:03, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
HRW neutrality is questionable. Also even they claimed only two cases of summary executions of seven men in total and only one of them in Bucha:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas So not THIS "massacre" 95.32.198.75 (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why would HRW neutrality be "questionable"? They denounce crimes on both sides.-Karma1998 (talk) 22:25, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is true, they have repeatedly criticized the abuse and torture of Russian POWs by Ukrainian forces. HRW has been criticized multiple times (including for good reasons), but overall it is (generally) considered an authoritative source when coming to human rights abuses. I also can't think of any bias they would hold when it comes to the Ukrainian conflict in particular. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 22:32, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Check this page to see why and how much they are questionable:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Human_Rights_Watch
It is extensive and with many elements.
"Its founder, Robert Bernstein, accused the organization of poor research methods and relying on "witnesses whose stories cannot be verified and who may testify for political advantage or because they fear retaliation from their own rulers."
"According to The Times, HRW "does not always practice the transparency, tolerance and accountability it urges on others." The Times accused HRW of imbalance, alleging that it ignores human-rights abuses in certain regimes while covering other conflict zones (notably Israel) intensively. "
"In May 2014 an open letter was published criticising Human Rights Watch for what were described as its close ties to the government of the United States. The letter was signed by Nobel Peace Laureates Adolfo Pérez Esquivel and Mairead Corrigan, former UN Assistant Secretary-General Hans von Sponeck, United Nations Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Richard A. Falk, and over 100 scholars and cultural figures."
And so on. Exolind (talk) 06:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Any major human rights organisation that is not being criticised is probably not doing its job properly. How many governments are willing to accept claims that they are responsible for human rights violations rather than try to "blame the messenger"? Even the Ethiopian Human Rights Commission is criticised from both sides. Of course, almost any big organisations will in general have problems for which they should be criticised. And Western mainstream media generally follows the propaganda model, based on quantitative evidence; and media in the more authoritarian countries (Western or not) generally is unreliable in much more obvious ways.
But if we exclude all sources that are subject to known biases and criticisms, then we'll have no sources left.
HRW and Amnesty International generally are reliable for the reports they make. We can to some degree bypass their biases and omissions by using a variety of sources. Same goes for other sources. Boud (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BIAS policy says you don't have to exclude reporting that is biased (on the rough assumption that everything is biased, at least to a degree)."However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone, although other aspects of the source may make it invalid. A neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view" You do need to make sure that reporting from both sides is included, in the context of balanced writing. So we can definitely use HRW as a source. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:42, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Ukrainian forces entered the town on 1 April" (wrong date)

Bucha's mayor said that Bucha was liberated by Ukrainian army at March, 31. So, please correct the date.

Src: https://t.me/uniannet/43423

92.101.176.193 (talk) 22:09, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bucha's mayor issued this announcement only in the evening of April 1 (his video was first posted on social media just before 19:00 Ukraine time, https://twitter.com/ua_ridna_vilna/status/1509922162584526870?s=20&t=VlmgsAJs8SlxqcyEz2_S2w) and he referred to the liberation of Bucha as having happened on March 31, Ukrainian troops did not enter the city on this day, though. 2A00:7C40:C200:34B:421C:83FF:FEE0:C0CC (talk) 23:18, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How could Ukrainian troops liberate Bucha on March 31 without entering it? The mayor said that Bucha was liberated by Ukrainian army. 92.101.176.193 (talk) 00:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russian forces left Bucha on either March 31 (as claimed by the Ukrainian mayor, so it was liberated then in his view) or they were still there on April 1 (as claimed by the Russian Ministry of Defense). But in any case, Ukrainian troops only entered the town on April 1. Likewise, the mayor made his announcement on April 1, at around 18:45 Ukraine time. 2A00:7C40:C200:34B:421C:83FF:FEE0:C0CC (talk) 00:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
> on April 1 (as claimed by the Russian Ministry of Defense).
Russian Ministry of Defense claims that Russian army left Bucha on March 30 (https://news.sky.com/story/war-in-ukraine-russians-pull-out-of-bucha-leaving-civilians-lying-dead-on-the-streets-12581143). 92.101.176.193 (talk) 01:53, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Initially, on April 1, the Russian Ministry of Defense (according to Interfax) claimed Russia was still successfully defending Bucha: https://web.archive.org/web/20220401071659/https://www.interfax.ru/world/832562.
Interestingly, the Russian MOD later (on April 3), changed its version. You only refer to the later statement, not to the earlier one.
In addition, there are two other sources claiming that Russian troops did not leave the town before April 1 (in the afternoon):
1) Bucha City Council Secretary Taras Shapravskiy on April 1 (published 11:34 AM Ukraine time), source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/04/1/7336277/
2) The Institute for the Study of War on April 1 19:00 ET (April 2, 01:00 Ukraine time) claimed that Russian troops withdrew from Bucha on "March 31 - April 1", source: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-1 2A00:7C40:C200:34B:E90D:8D18:603A:FFFB (talk) 06:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of the events

Since many people have questioned the timeline of the events, I'll try to write it schematically here:

  • 31 March - Russian forces leave Bucha;
  • 1 April - Ukrainian forces retake Bucha;
  • 2 April - First photos of the massacre appear on social media and traditional media;
  • 3 April - The massacre is revealed;

I honestly cannot see anything "suspicious" about the timeline. Even in our hyper-connected world, 1-2 days are a reasonable timeline, especially in war times. And I honestly don't think the Ukrainians would be able to pull up such a sofisticated charade in only 1 day, that seems extremely implausible.--Karma1998 (talk) 22:47, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good. I've two sources in Russian telling what Russian military was doing at the Bucha on March 31 and April 1, 2022. Checkout: [3][4]. Jsut to reconstruct timeline of events and find inconsitencies. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 23:20, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Alexander Davronov: Russian state-owned media cannot be considered reliable for obvious reasons. Zvezda, in particular, is well-known for his unreliability.-Karma1998 (talk) 23:35, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a consensus on that Zvezda is in particular generally unreliable? It still can be used in proper WP:RSCONTEXT. On the other side I don't insist on using such sources in the article. They just can be used to track or get certain information. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 23:39, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
They can be used to represent the official stance taken by the Russian Ministry of Defence. See WP:RSCONTEXT. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 01:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here is another two interfax sources that one may find interesting :
  • [5] - Ministry of Defense claims that civilians "were allowed to flee toward North and Belarus" and that nobody "was harmed while Buchan was under control of Russian forces".
  • [6] - On April 1 a commander of navy troop named Alexey Shabulin (Russian: Алексей Шабулин) told that Russian navy infantry were "clearing" and "reconning" nearby villages with a purpose to establish permanent presense.
AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 23:57, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I'd also like to add that the massacre has been denounced by Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, which are impartial and unbiased NGOs.--Karma1998 (talk) 22:50, 3 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The earliest social media reports were actually on the 1st of April. Here's an example: https://t.me/irpin_b_politik/1945 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.137.8 (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Unconfirmed" should be added

There's not enough evidence yet to really know what happened there. Pipukandrey (talk) 06:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we have video evidence, photography by various news agencies, reports from the Ukrainian government and eyewitness accounts given to reputable news agencies and then published in their titles. What other sort of evidence did you want? If you want Putin to admit it, I don't think that;s going to happen. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:15, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ukrainian sources has proven themselves questionable after posting fakes multiple times lately. Also, almost all sources on page are biased towards pro-Ukrainian side. Without further investigations and more claims from both sides, we can't say that everything is confirmed 91.193.177.154 (talk) 08:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't referring to Ukrainian sources, Associated Press, Reuters, France 24, BBC, HRW - lots of sources have reported it, and they have journalists on site as witnesses. Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is plenty of reports in multiple newspapers around the world, as well as statements from third party NGOs like Amnesty and Human Rights Watch. The Russian war crimes are well confirmed. And no, sources here are not biased, any more than sources about WWII are biased. Describing the actions of the armies of Hitler/Putin is of course negative. That's not because of bias but because of their own actions. Jeppiz (talk) 09:07, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was already mentioned that HRW is a questionable source 91.193.177.154 (talk) 09:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced it with Associated Press, happy? Deathlibrarian (talk) 09:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why replace it, Deathlibrarian? There is nothing wrong with HRW. A spa IP disliking what HRW says does in no way disqualify it. Jeppiz (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just did it to make a point that even with the HRW out, there are plenty of other accounts of the attrocities. Taking one out does nothing - and he had no answer to that! In any case, I'll put it back in.Deathlibrarian (talk) 12:37, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Photo" for "photograph"

The article should be corrected to say "photograph" instead of "photo." Using vocabulary like "gonna" isn't upon encyclopedic articles just yet. 85.240.221.174 (talk) 07:27, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The first social media report of the massacre was on the 1st of April, not 2nd

This is important because massacre denial often uses a timeline gap to claim it didn't happen. Example of a 1st of April report of the massacre: https://t.me/irpin_b_politik/1945 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.204.137.8 (talk) 11:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like this needs to be highlighted more. I have seen a lot of people believing that the first photos were released on April the 2nd (e.g. see "Timeline of the events" above), but this does not seem to be the case. There are several reports of this on both twitter and telegram channels. I honestly do not understand the objection that these sources should not be used (as mentioned on other discussions here). If the objective is to prove the time-order, why shouldn't we include those as legitimate proof? Andreas Mastronikolis (talk) 16:46, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If Bellingcat counts as a RS, this could be quoted: https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/
"Videos and photographs from Bucha, showing deceased individuals in civilian clothes, first appeared on social media channels on April 1." 212.187.165.227 (talk) 17:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done in Special:Diff/1081031322. Thank you for including a reliable source with your suggestion. — Newslinger talk 22:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nice catch. Andreas Mastronikolis (talk) 22:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perpetrator

Various Ukrainian and pro-Ukrainian sources are alleging that the 64th motorized rifle brigade of Russia and it's leader Azatbek Asanbekovich are the perpetrators of the Bucha massacre. [1] Would it be against Wikipedia standard to write that the brigade was responsible? And if not, is it too early to put both the brigade and it's leader in a Leader's section of the Battle of Bucha page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jebiguess (talk • contribs) 13:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We should get more than one source before we make a decision. I would like to note that Stopcor seems to be a reliable source as it is promoted by the European Union Anti-Corruption Initiative in Ukraine. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I included the claim that 64th Motor Rifle Brigade were present (as presumably the main Russian force) in Bucha, attributed to Ukrainian military intelligence; whether or not the brigades' members were responsible for the massacre is a different question. Being present at the scene of a crime at the time or just before the time of occurrence doesn't guarantee guilt.
I don't see how we can write that the 64th Brigade was the perpetrator until either legal charges are laid (e.g. by the ICC or by a national court under universal jurisdiction), in which case members of the brigade would be suspects or charged with. There are cases when the media and other sources overwhelmingly agree on a perpetrator prior to or without a legal conviction and Wikipedia accepts the term perpetrator, but that's generally only when the perpetrators are caught in the act (or killed), and so far, at least, that's not the case here. WP:BLP guidelines apply for the Russian soldiers in 64th Motor Rifle Brigade who are still alive.
Stopcor does seem to be a serious source, but if my understanding of the autotranslation is correct, it mainly gives details about the 64th Brigade (making it sound quite brutal), without actually making its own claim of 64th Brigade responsibility; it only seems to say that Arestovich attributed responsibility to the 64th Brigade. The statement that 64th Brigade have been accused by Ukrainian military intelligence (and by Arestovich as a spokesperson) as responsible for the massacre would seem to be usable as an accusation, though not to say that the Brigade members "were the perpetrators". Boud (talk) 22:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.stopcor.org/section-suspilstvo/news-kradizhki-didovschina-bezkarnist-chim-vidoma-vch-z-habarovska-yaka-katuvala-meshkantsiv-buchi-04-04-2022.html

Genocide

The current lead says that Ukrainian politicians have named the massacre a genocide and are asking for the ICC to investigate.

While I suppose the proposed ICC investigation is notable enough for the lead, I don't see how treating the personal opinions of politicians as equal to scholarly consensus doesn't violate WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:27, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's okay to say that it's politicians who claimed it was a "genocide" but not more than that. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 17:08, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A subsection on Intent, to cover claims of genocidal intent, would make sense if we had serious sources (academic, or from reputable human rights organisations or bodies) describing the outlines of the arguments and evidence for genocidal intent in this massacre. We don't seem to have that (yet?). Without genocidal intent, this might still be a crime against humanity. But we would need sources. Boud (talk) 21:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two columns for reactions of nations makes it easier to read / navigate: Cell phones will see just a single column

Making the article easier to read / navigate is important. When in column format, the appearance is more tidy as well.

Chesapeake77 (talk) 14:02, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:22, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have notified the provider of the photo that they didn't release their copyright properly. I did so in both English and Ukrainian.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 14:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Someone asked me to open a discussion on gratuitous images in the article

I respectfully disagree with that person. The photos in the article are not gratuitous but are descriptive and essential to conveying the topic.

I would also point out the following photo, which is from the Wikipedia article on the Holocaust--

If you enlarge the photo, you will see it contains hundreds of dead bodies.

Chesapeake77 (talk) 15:20, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As the person who disagreed with the external links being used, I appreciate this matter being brought up here and on my user page. My main objection to these images being included is that they were gratuitous only in that there were three external links being used here, which seems excessive to me. I understand that these images are noteworthy, but I personally don't see the benefit to the average reader in providing an external link to these three images in the main article, and including three in a sidebar list seems to violate WP:GRATUITOUS IMO. There are already other images of the atrocity mentioned in the article (which I personally think violates MOS:SHOCK, but that deserves a separate discussion here).
Here is the revision in question, if other editors wish to express an opinion on the topic. --QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:28, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I would respectfully point out that WP:GRATUITOUS does allow for graphic images, if they meet certain criteria.
For example, the holocaust photo (above) has been accepted into the Wikipedia Holocaust article. If you click on it, it contains hundreds of dead bodies (all severely starved and then killed).
Chesapeake77 (talk) 15:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that. Perhaps if it was one external link, I would not think the usage was gratuitous. But I am happy to be overruled if editors do favour their inclusion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:46, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the image censored if Wikipedia is not censored?

The image is blurred but has a dead body inside. Was this the best image that could be found, did we put WP:NOTCENSORED on hold because this will be a widely viewed article and WP:UNPRECEDENTED applies, or does the rule of least astonishment apply to images even if it means censorship?

So far, it's the best version of the picture currently available on Wikimedia Commons.
You (or someone) can go to Wikimedia Commons and contact the username who posted it. You, or someone, might then want to ask them if they can get an uncensored version of the photo.
They are Ukrainian and I suggest you use Google Translate (which is free, you can just Google it) (English to Ukrainian) to ask them for help. **When translating try to keep your writing simple and short, for best resuts.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 15:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (de-facto SNOW close) Not moved @Abductive: For the bot - if you remove the banner, you need to close the discussion too RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bucha massacre → War crimes in Bucha during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine – A clunky re-titling I must admit, but I feel it corresponds to Wikipedia practise (e.g. War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine). While what happened was IMHO undoubtedly a massacre, there doesn't seem to be consensus among English-language reliable sources that "Bucha massacre" is the common name for what happened. QueenofBithynia (talk) 15:43, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support yes I think that's a good idea. But only so long as "Bucha massacre" is carefully included in the article opening (or "section opening" if it becomes a section, due to other war crimes then discovered in the area).
For example: "...also known as the Bucha Massacre". (Or "also known as the massacre of Bucha"). Chesapeake77 (talk) 15:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A massacre is a single event, or chain of events linked by an intent to carry out these events. In this case, there is as of yet no prove that the single events were connected in this way, i.e. the motivations and the triggers for the events were different. Therefore, the article, as of now, is actually a collection of articles on war crimes and alleged war crimes in Bucha. In due course, it is likely that some description will emerge in reliable sources. It will be important to look at the entirety of reporting by reliable sources (both English and non-English) on the events in Bucha, not just on those reliable sources that use the most catchy phrase to describe them. At this moment, some sources use "Bucha massacre" as their own term, some use it in quotation marks (thus not owning the term), some don't use it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cs32en (talk • contribs) 16:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional Support Agreed that this renaming is more in line with other similar articles in Wikipedia, but the term "Bucha massacre" has also been widely used in reliable sources, so it should be prominently featured in the lede and there should be a redirect from Bucha massacre to this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisanthusjohn (talk • contribs) 17:06, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. It would be a war crime when a competent and indpenedent court finds so. AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 17:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongesg policy based oppose The only body that can determine if this was a war xrime is the ICC, and they aren't going to have an answer for a while. A massacre did happen- citizens were executed in a manner far worse than casualties of war, but it is 100% wrong by policy to be calling these war crimes in wikivoice. This article's text is already out of compliance with policy in that way, and the proposed title would make it worse. --Masem (t) 17:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully but strongly disagree. It is very important that "We the people" and also "Any democratic government" can also decide that something is a war crime. We the people don't have to wait 15 years for the slow machinations of the ICC or other such bodies to reach the conclusion that something is a war crime.
  • Oppose: Per coommon name. The proposed article's namer is OR. As can be shown easily by google for the exact War crimes in Bucha during the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which delivers atm exactly two results – this talk page and the template on the front. --Matthiasb (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per previous and also per WP:CONCISE: the proposed title is the exact kind of verbose invention that should be avoided; especially if it includes the strong claim that these are "war crimes" (which they probably are, but we as an encyclopedia have no need to jump the gun on that). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:46, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Until there is a WP:RS backing up an official name it should be named what most English speakers are calling it. WP:COMMONNAME The Impartial Truth (talk) 19:49, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please be careful of the wording in this article

I'd recommend putting "alleged" in front of statements that can be interpereted as fact. There have been no outside int'l organizations or media sources that have definitively reported that there has been confirmed war crimes or a massacre of any kind. Reuters and the independent media I've looked through are all employing cautious wording "Ukraine alleges..." etc. due to the nature of the developing and uncertain cituation. It could very well be an instance of atrocity propaganda - Ukrainian Ministry of Defense also hasn't been the most reliable source of information or accusation (see Snake Island.) Capery200 (talk) 15:55, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Red XN Not done: This is personal speculation. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are multiple sources referring to this as a massacre/attrocity.The only people that are challenging saying it is fake are Russian state sources... and we know how reliable they are. Deathlibrarian (talk) 23:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How much of sources have proved themselves to not be biased towards pro-Ukrainian side? Please keep in mind that all we actually do have so far are few opinions on topics, based on random witnesses. To say about certainty of someone being responsible for action, we do need to at least wait for some investigation results, better to be from generally unbiaced sources (which Ukrainian government can't be considered in the situation for example). Unless we have anything like that, it it better to state "allegedly" SwampKryakwa (talk) 23:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Zachistka

Wikipedia has an article about Zachistka, and Bucha is now mentioned there---seem to be some similarities. Only one English-language reliable source so far to explicitly refer to it as a Zachistka though, this article from The Economist, near the end. Worth a mention on the article about Bucha? Paris1127 (talk) 17:14, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Worth a mention, it is also noted by Bne IntelliNews here and by ABC.es here (I don't know Spanish so had to google translate it) Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 17:21, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither source seems to explicitly call Bucha an example of zachistka though... The Economist refers to a video where a Russian soldier uses the term (and says he was operating in Kyiv's NW suburbs), while ABC's piece refers mostly to Irpin. Paris1127 (talk) 17:29, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is only a single paragraph in the Zachistka article about the Bucha massacre. So there is no significant conflict or overlap as per "disambiguation" or "merge article" requirements.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Add Bellingcat as a source showing no falsification of the videos from Bucha.

Bellingcat looked into Russian claims of fakery as well and throughly debunked their 'evidence'. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/04/04/russias-bucha-facts-versus-the-evidence/ 2600:387:C:6B16:0:0:0:4 (talk) 19:26, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Green tickY It's been done. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 20:25, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian Reaction

It doesn't make much sense to have the reaction/denial by the Russian authorities stuck in Reactions>Countries, hidden in the bottom right corner of the page, together with Chile and Sweden. Many readers will be interested in how the Russians reacted to the accusations, thus the info is highly notable and should be more visible. This edit of mine had a point. If we don't want to have it in the "Investigation" section, then I suggest we create a self-standing section, "Russian reaction" - highly visible and well sourced. And TASS is a reliable source as far as statements by the Russian authorities are concerned, so quoting it extensively shouldn't be a problem. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 19:36, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MRDA is also a thing. We don't need to give extra emphasis to Russia, particularly if their response is exactly what you'd expect whether there allegations were true or not. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:01, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure WP:MRDA (an essay - not a policy, not a guideline) is that relevant here: "The mere fact that someone has denied unsavory allegations does not automatically merit inclusion in an article, especially if that allegation is very well sourced". But here we still don't know much about the allegations, do we? The bodies have just been found, we have reports by the Ukrainian authorities and witnesses, we don't have a closed investigation, let alone a trial and a judgement. The massacre is not, and cannot be at this early stage, "very well sourced", and what the Russian authorities say about what happened or might have happened in Bucha is relevant.
Anyway, there's another argument to into account. If (as I'm personally inclined to believe) the massacre was done by the Russian forces and the victims were mostly civilians, then it will be important to assess the level and nature of the responsibilities. Apparently the Defense Ministry is covering up what's happened. Does he know the truth? By denying the facts he is assuming a certain degree of political if not criminal responsibility. And he's not only denying, he's also making statements of fact which sooner or later it will be possible to verify: has the Russian army left on the 30th? has the Mayor released a video on the 31st? All this is highly notable, because it has broad legal and political consequences, while the reactions by Sweden, Chile, Italy etc. are less relevant and not vital for understanding and assessing the subject. The reaction of the Russian authority clearly belongs to the article and deserves an accurate account. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:04, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Flag salad "Reactions" list

As you may know, the "Reactions" section list, with its list format and flags, are despised by many editors as unencyclopedic quotefarms sourced to primary sources such as Twitter. Most of the statements are nearly identical condemnations. This article's "Reactions" section should be pruned and prosified. Abductive (reasoning) 20:03, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose While the format is unpopular, there is really no better way to write it in this case- prosifying sounds good on paper but can often read in a similar tone when the flags/bullet lists are removed. Going out of the way to delete sections because they use the {{flag}} template is rather unnecessary. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 20:13, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because it's so hard to remove the flags.... And prose is common on Wikipedia, in my experience. Abductive (reasoning) 20:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Already mostly  Done for the most part. Removing the flag salad will remove the temptation for it to keep growing to an unmanageable size with more encyclopedically irrelevant statements. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:24, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree, this is a convenient way of looking at each countries reactions.Lets see what the consensus is before removing them? Deathlibrarian (talk) 22:58, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Deathlibrarian: It isn't a convenient way; it just attracts lots of encyclopedically irrelevant material and encourages Twitter quotefarms. The article as it stands already has dealt away with this and presents only the most relevant material with prose, not listcruft. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:35, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Files

File:Місто Буча після звільнення від російських окупантів.jpg File:Місто Буча після звільнення від російських окупантів.webm --PBKIHX (talk) 20:33, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GRATUITOUS is also to be considered. One good image (such as the one currently in the article) is more effective than giving too many; and "not censored" is not a free hand to include shocking material just because it exists. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 20:40, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Occupation

According to the article, Bucha was invaded on February 27. However, according to the Moscow Times and Barrons, the occupation began on February 26. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 21:53, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Misrepresentation of source

@The Impartial Truth: Please don't misrepresent sources as you did in here (your edit summary is misleading as well). There's absolutely nothing in the source about "both" Russia and Ukraine asking for an investigation from the ICC. Volunteer Marek 23:07, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Death Count

According to CNN (https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-04-04-22/h_962b679d8247d848090323ceccf9ba7b) over 400 dead bodies have been found instead of the reported 300 in this article. Urban Versis 32 (talk) 23:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Russian claims

Re [7] I'm sorry, but no, it's not enough to say "Russia denies it and says it all fake" without actually informing the reader that these disputations of the footage are bunk and have been found to be so. Yes, this is discussed in the "Aftermath" section but this is the lede and the lede summarizes the article. If articles says XYZ then lede summarizes XYZ, not XY. Volunteer Marek 23:11, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Video of mass grave being filled from mid-March

I would like to note that one of the videos of a mass grave being filed with body bags, allegedly from Bucha, already surfaced by mid-March. https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1502776694175895557 (does anyone know of original/better source?) I think this video deserves at least a fleeting mention in the section "During the Russian offensive". 93.103.223.236 (talk) 23:19, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be used in page, it should be not treated as an original research. Better provide published sources that mention of this SwampKryakwa (talk) 23:23, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The account that tweeted this is himself a journalist, so I'm not sure if citing it can be considered "original research" per se... however, looking for better sources, I managed to narrow down google search to find a couple published articles from that time frame that also reported on that video: [1][2][3][4] 93.103.223.236 (talk) 00:00, 5 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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