Talk:France

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Anonymous-raccoon.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:45, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

"$2.938[9] (7th)" is unclear.

"$2.938[9] (7th)" is how the reader is informed of the GDP of France. It is not at all clear to the majority of readersArctic Gazelle (talk) 17:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC) what this means. How about $2,938,000,000,000[9] (7th)" instead?

 Already done 1 trillion=1000,000,000,000 Dinesh | Talk 05:00, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 November 2021

Change France flag colour to new dark blue colour 88.207.116.72 (talk) 19:41, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:57, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Flag change

I have noticed that the flag has been changed, which I assume is to do with Macron's unilateral decision to change the blue colour of the flags that are hung on some official buildings. However, it's worth mentioning that the sources do note that not all flags of France have been replaced. M.Bitton (talk) 20:24, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Interesting indeed ... Maybe a funding issue ? --Sapphorain (talk) 21:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Daran755: I've noticed that most wiki's use the 1958 variant when most sources I have seen state that the color changes uses navy blue, similar to the 1794 flag. I'm no color expert but I feel like the 1958 variant is more darker than the actual flag change. I only restored the lighter version temporarily as I'm considering to change it back if the situation with the flag is more clearer. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 14:07, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

The new flag is no more official than the old and no instructions have been given to change all the official flags. The change has been described by the Élysée as an incentive (apparently, Macron's entourage has no desire to give the image of a president who touches the deep symbols of the country). M.Bitton (talk) 14:37, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@Britannicus the Scot: The situation of the flag is not as simple as it looks. Whether we keep the old known flag or adopt the new one is something that needs to be discussed. M.Bitton (talk) 15:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@Daran755: Apart from reverting others, do you anything of value to add to this discussion? M.Bitton (talk) 16:11, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Do we need to discuss the fact that Joe Biden became president in order to update his page? What do you need to discuss other than the fact that the change is official? Even if some buildings might still be using the lighter shade version as the change is recent, that doesnt negate the fact that the official flag is now using the navy blue color, as per the Elysee statement. Refer to the French wikipedia page, or French media that confirmed the change of flag before starting a stupid revert war. Daran755 (talk) 16:19, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

You're comparing oranges to apples. As I explained, the new flag is no more official than the old one (the one that is commonly used). What someone managed to impose on the French Wikipedia (through an edit war) is irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 16:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@Daran755: According to your sources, the flag was changed last year yet no one changed the flag until recently. Besides, the variant you want to use isn't even the correct version as the French Wikipedia has more accurate shades as seen but that doesn't even matter as the French government hasn't made any official shades as of November 2021. SuperSkaterDude45 (talk) 16:33, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@SuperSkaterDude45 Can you actually read French? Do you know how France works? Did Valérie Giscard d’Estaing hold a vote or make a big announcement on TV when he changed the flag to a lighter shade version? The answer is no, he did the same way that Macron is now doing. The change is recent because it was recently confirmed by the French presidency that they changed the shade of the flag, making the change official, that’s kind of how it works! Daran75 (talk) 16:40, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

You're still not addressing any of the issues that have been highlighted. As for the French wiki, have a look at the discussion that's taking place there. M.Bitton (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

I believe that as the French wiki decides to change the flag, then the English wiki should too. similarly, the Flag of France page puts the darker variant over the lighter one, where it used to be the other way around. if Macron loses the election and the victor chooses to keep the flag lighter, then that should be that. Spaceexplorerer ᐵ ^(talk) 00:34, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I fully agree with you, but some people are just too keen on gatekeeping the lighter flag for some reason... Daran755(talk) 13:16, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

French Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and each language's Wikipedia has its own guidelines. So, for example, when considering the notability of a French person, company, or tourist attraction, we make our own determination, we don't go by whether French Wikipedia has affirmed their notability. French Wikipedia is relevant here only insofar as individual points raised or information provided in the discussion there may be equally valid and useful to the discussion here. Largoplazo (talk) 13:27, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

COMMENT No opinion on the flag, but if I consider that edit warring is occurring, I will be taking administrative action, be it locking the article, blocking editors, or both. You have been warned. Mjroots (talk) 18:52, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

References

Compromise suggestion

The only thing that is clear about the shades of colour on the flag is that there is no right or wrong version. There was evidently a tacit but stable position position for many decades with dark shades, then for the last 40 years there was a no less tacit but widespread acceptance of lighter colours, now we know that one very influential Frenchman prefers the darker version, but France is not a dictatorship and Macron's shift of opinion/usage is not legally definitive (but neither is custom over the last 40 years).

It is not the place of Wikipedia to take a stand on such a debate: our purpose is to produce a stable and informative encyclopaedia. Stability is best achieved by meeting the expectations of all editors, and that goal (and neutrality in the debate) is probably best served by having both flags in the infobox. Template:infobox country allows it. Is there any good reason not to? Kevin McE (talk) 12:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

@Kevin McE: I personally think having two flags would look a bit messy, I still think we should display the version that is used by the government and by the presidency, if the darker version is no more official than the ligher version, the lighter version is not more official than the darker one either, we might as we display the one that is used internationally now. Eventually the lighter blue flags will be replaced across the country following that decision. User:Daran755 22:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

we might as well display the one that is used internationally now Which one would that be (assuming you have a reliable source to back your claim)? M.Bitton (talk) 22:56, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Of course you are entitled to your opinion as to what might look messy, but the community has obviously decided that the idea of having two flags is not out of the question for aesthetic reasons, as the template allows it. Have you trialled it, or are you just assuming that you won't like the look?

On what evidence do you claim that the darker version is used by the French Government? I see three representations of the flag on the first page of www.gouvernement.fr/en, all of which are light blue; 4 of the 6 at homepage of www.elysee.fr/en (website of the Presidency) are . As regards international use, I'm not sure what you mean by that, but uk.ambafrance.org (French consulate), the list of member nations at un.org, the country profile at https://european-union.europa.eu, and the US embassy in Paris (fr.usembassy.gov) all use the lighter colours. You seem to be attributing the full force of law to one informal action of the president, but that is not how law works in a parliamentary democracy. Perhaps you would like to present your evidence for the claim that the darker version is predominantly used by either the government or the presidency, or the international community.

If it becomes the case that the darker version replaces the lighter one "across the country", and becomes dominant as the lighter one has been in recent years, then the decision to relegate the prominence of the lighter one here can (and should) be made here, but to claim now that that will happen is WP:CRYSTAL. Macron might not be president in 6 months, and such a change is likely to take much longer than that. Kevin McE (talk) 23:11, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

The darker blue flag is displayed at the Elysee, within French government ministry buildings, displayed behind ministers when giving a speech, and used at international summits by the Presidency.

Now I would be interested to know where you have learned that France is a parliamentary democracy? Because I'm pretty sure it's a semi-presidential democracy, in which most powers reside in the hands of the President. Really seems like you don't know much about France to be honest. The websites you refer to are using the darker blue version like here: https://www.gouvernement.fr/en/the-tricolour-flag // the lighter blue picture you see on the Elysee website is from Macron's official portrait which was taken in 2017, well before the change. I didnt know also that the U.S. embassy in Paris decided which flag is the official flag of France. Unless you have real arguments, you might as well sit this one out. Nor the UN or the EU decide which flag is the French flag either by the way. Speculating on the next election is also irrelevant. Daran755 (talk) 9:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

You are the one who said, "we might as we display the one that is used internationally now." I have provided evidence as to which flag is being used internationally now. Where is your evidence for international use of the darker version? By what principle of Wikipedia do you think we should anticipate popular acceptance? And you haven't given any reason why your assumption about what might look messy should trump the long term principle in the template that display of two flags can be considered. Kevin McE (talk) 11:47, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Alternate proposal

Flag conforming to the official definition of the flag of France but with shades of blue and red not found in any actual French flag

I propose (tongue-in-cheek, of course) that we display this. Then it will be equally correct regardless of which set of shades a given president is requiring at a given moment. After all, since the shade isn't official, it doesn't matter which shades we use in our version of it as long as it conforms to those specifications that are official (bleu, blanc, rouge).

As far as I can tell, the only pronouncement that's more specific than this is the latest declaration that has been issued by a sitting president. So we can go by mine, or we can go by that. If we go by whichever version happens to be flying in front of such-and-such buildings, that's original research, isn't it?

For those reasons, I propose that either we go with my version or with the latest version requested by a sitting president. I, of course, will find it entertaining if anyone votes for the former of these two. Largoplazo (talk) 13:48, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

It seems that the darker blue variant is at least some what used by government and the president it seems sensible to just put both flags to show that both flags are being used in some capacity. Having only one gives the impression that only the lighter blue variant is the one being used officially by government and the president. However if for stylistic reasons only one can be chosen I agree let’s just use the darker variant by the current sitting president as that’s more relevant. Also something that should be noted I’m pretty sure google changed the flag when you search France the navy blue flag shows up. Black roses124 (talk) 23:05, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on November 21, 2021

As the editors contesting the flag change do not present any sources to back their counter-point, I suggest this page be locked for at least a few weeks to stop the constant reverts of the flag color. Daran755 (talk) 22:04, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Locked at admin level and at the wrong version™. Mjroots (talk) 13:22, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 25 November 2021

ImChessFan21 (talk) 02:51, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Largoplazo (talk) 03:23, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 5 December 2021

The flag of France has changed , you see it has changed from bright blue to navy blue Thank you 2A00:23C8:A720:9200:B02C:9E91:B68:DDA9 (talk) 20:43, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This is already being discussed above. Feel free to contribute to that discussion. Largoplazo (talk) 23:00, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 5 December 2021

The shade of blue on the French flag has changed to a darker one. Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59283134 Gamerknowitall (talk) 20:48, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done This is already being discussed above. Feel free to contribute to that discussion. Largoplazo (talk) 23:01, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of "Template:Largest cities of France"

Template:Largest cities of France has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 10:10, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Flag

France changed the flag by making the blue darker. 109.166.129.9 (talk) 19:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

France did not. For more details, see the existing discussion above. Largoplazo (talk) 20:27, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Unbalanced

Greetings,

I am just short of tagging society section with Template:Unbalanced.

The section about French society, boasts about status of women in France. Good is good no issues. But I wish to apply principle of 'where content boasts about some fundamentals then it need to be balanced by mentioning unexpected contrast, if any. If women in France still face issues like intimate partner violence/ or some other problem then that should get mention in the article, IMHO.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 08:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

The article lists things which are remarkable, things which set a country (in this case France) apart from most other countries. Your supposed unbalance and needed addition on the other hand is something that sadly happens in every single country in the world, and thus doesn´t need adding. Fram (talk) 20:38, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit requests

May we have the name King Philip Augustus changed to King Philip II & also the phrase "...of the World War II" to "...of World War II"? -- GoodDay (talk) 16:09, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

 Partly done the "of the" part is done. — xaosflux ^Talk 17:47, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

But the bio article is Philip II of France. -- GoodDay (talk) 17:59, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@GoodDay: I'm not declining this (why it is still answered=no) - just don't have time to dig through the nature of the protection dispute to see if that section is part of it or not right now. — xaosflux ^Talk 19:06, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done (not part of the edit war, which seems to be mostly about flags). — xaosflux ^Talk 12:29, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

@Xaosflux: - the FP is entirely down to the flag dispute, which doesn't seem solvable yet. Am going to raise this at WP:AN. Mjroots (talk) 17:48, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I've opened an RFC. Hopefully we can have a temporary solution to the full protection, but in the long term we need a consensus to point at. BilledMammal (talk) 22:51, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC regarding the flag

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus that option B, the "navy blue" flag, should be generally used. There is also consensus that, when the flag itself is discussed in the article, both flags should be used. There is no consensus on how to present both flags in such articles. (non-admin closure) Tol (talk | contribs) @ 04:31, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

---

"Marian Blue" flag; A

"Navy Blue" flag; B

Which flag should be used as the flag of France, including on this article? If both, please specify which flag should be used in circumstances where both is not possible.
22:49, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Survey

• B. To the best of my knowledge, there is no PAG on this, and the arguments will be mostly of a pragmatic nature. So here goes. French law does not define the specific tone of the French flag. The French Constitution only provides that the flag is blue, white and red. Dark blue has a long-standing history, stretching from the First Republic to the early years of the Fifth Republic, including Free France. What Macron has done is simply reverting to the pre-1974 practice of using dark blue, and there is every indication that this practice will progressively spread. I'm not sure what exactly we would be waiting for by choosing A. JBchrch talk 23:58, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

  Could I ask @JBchrch: to clarify what he means by 'PAG' here? I suspect I will not be the only one reading this who does not recognise the abbreviation. Kevin McE (talk) 18:13, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Kevin McE Policies and guidelines (WP:PAG). And yes, I do use abbreviations to show that I'm smart. JBchrch talk 18:16, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Should use panton colors as we do with most countries = "PANTONE “Reflex Blue” and PANTONE “Red 032”, or RGB (0,85,164) and (239,65,53), or CMYK (100,73,0,2) and (0,90,86,0) as outlined by Valéry Giscard d’Estaing."Moxy- 01:45, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  @Moxy I think it would be useful if you clarified why you think we should follow Giscard and not Macron. JBchrch talk 01:49, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  Because we have no panton colors for it....as seen above all just guess work of the shade.Moxy- 01:52, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  To clarify, you are !voting for A, Marian Blue? BilledMammal (talk) 01:54, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  Yes... use the registered colours for the national insignia.... not the one used by government officials.Moxy- 02:16, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  I don't plan on bludgeoning the conversation, but I will just note that we have many articles using the historical navy version, without the need for a pantone code. JBchrch talk 02:02, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  Pantone colors should be used where every possible.We should not be guessing what shade are used in modern flags.Moxy- 02:24, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

• A. Visually, I think this is what most people are familiar with. I saw the darker blue and was thinking it was the flag for another country. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

  I don't think it is that confusing since France is the only country to use a vertical tricolour design with these colours. Even if the colours are darker, the flag of France is not going to be mistaken with the flag of another country. Unlike Chad and Romania, for instance. In addition, using the "B" flag will prevent people from mistaking the flag of France with the flag of the Madriz Department (I'm aware that this scenario does not concern many people outside Nicaragua).Le Braddock (talk) 21:22, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

  It is not so much an issue of readers thinking that it is the flag of another nation as not recognising that it is France's. It should not (according to WP:FLAG) be the case, but the flag is very often shown on Wikipedia, especially in templates, without the country name. In such cases, it still communucates useful information to the reader if the flag is one they recognise, but not if they don't. Many readers will recognise both, but for those who don't (such as Deathlibrarian), the colours in option A are far more likely to be recognised, and therefore flag A will be informative while flag B is not. People will only confidently know that there is no other country with colour combination B if they believe that they know every national flag in the world. Kevin McE (talk) 15:50, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

  I understand what you are saying. But people will gradually get used to it (it's not a big change after all). The goal of the website is also to use the colours most similar to the flags used by the french government. There will always be confusion if the digital flag does not correspond to the real ones.Le Braddock (talk) 17:19, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

  I do not believe that that is at all the goal of the website. We have no mandate to act on behalf of the government of France. We use the flag that will be recognised as the flag of France. Both A and B are genuine and correct representations of the current flag of France, but A is the variant most likely to be recognised as such by most people. Of course if it becomes the case that A by law no longer fills the definition our practice must change (familiarity does not justify error), but that is not where we are. If Macron's wish, that the darker colours become more widely accepted and recognised, comes to pass, then we respond and follow that (which is why I have said we should keep it under review), but it is not the place of Wikipedia to drive for change on Macron's behalf. Kevin McE (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

  So, according to you, we should wait until the B flag becomes more popular (if it ever gets popular) to use it on the wikipedia page ?Le Braddock (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

  That depends on which Wikipedia page you mean. I have already !voted (21 Dec, below) both in relation to this page and Flag of France. In regard to other pages, where the flag usually is present via a template, then absolutely "Yes", unless or until it ceases to be legally correct before that, because there is little point in trying to communicate the concept of France by using a poorly recognised representation of France. I have already described it as a vexillological parallel to WP:COMMONNAME; surprising the reader is not our goal, and neither is pushing for the change that a politician might want. Kevin McE (talk) 15:22, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• A or B - Since both exist. GoodDay (talk) 05:44, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• A at least until there's a good source for Macron's blue. The color chosen here looks wrong to me, and doesn't match the 000080 html color Navy Blue, and I can't see where it came from. Dicklyon (talk) 07:09, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• B. Although I think either is fine and using A shouldn't be an issue, if we have to use one over the other go with B as it seems to be the one the French government prefers. There shouldn't be an issue using A outside the infobox. --Spekkios (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2021 (UTC)
• A for now in most places (which essentially means in the templates), but it seems it should be kept under review. Other than in the article about the flag and discussion of symbols in this article here, the purpose of flags in articles is to indicate France, not to inform about the flag, so until and unless the darker form becomes the image that people 'normally' associate with France, the familiar, paler ("Marian") version does that more effectively. It may well be that in a fairly short time this will no longer be the case. However, see my second !vote below. Kevin McE (talk) 18:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Both in this article and at Flag of France (but not vertically separated with no space between them as in the Option C below). At this time of a split, these are the two places that people might look to see what is correct, and it is not the place of Wikipedia to suggest that one is right and the other is wrong. Both are current, in official use, and they are equally the flag of France, so neither should be omitted at those key locations. Kevin McE (talk) 18:39, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Both at Flag of France and anywhere else the precise design or colours are discussed, A everywhere else until at least there are reliable sources indicating what the exact shade of navy blue is. Thryduulf (talk) 16:51, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
• A or Both The second design, hereafter labeled B, is uncommon and, should I say, deprecated. Using it in the article to portray the current flag of France would mean to other French people that the article is outdated if they are observant, or as for those who are not observant, they may notice the darker tones, but might think of it as an amateur graphic being used rather than an official graphic of the flag. The most B should appear in the article would be to be used to teach people about the difference between what the flag of France was versus what it is now under the history section. MarioSuperstar77 (talk) 19:27, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

  It seems Encyclopaedia Britannica uses the darker tones, so I'm skeptical of the argument that they would look amateurish. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

  odd the official source uses the other one.Moxy- 22:25, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  In this case, it's Encyclopedia Britannica that looks amateurish. It's been using that flag since May 2020 (before Macron's flag which appeared on July 2020) and a very odd looking one before that. M.Bitton (talk) 13:25, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

• Both where the flag itself is being discussed. No opinion about what to do in other places. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 15:43, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
• B The article on the flag of France in French Wikipedia says that at least since the Second Empire, approximately 1852, use of a dark and gloomy blue seems to have been established (un bleu sombre) - a navy blue near midnight blue - which would correspond to the B colour scheme. While there is no law defining the flag's colour tones, France's national navy has been publishing an album of flags since 1858, and there, the dark navy blue colour tone was and is used. The current version of the album, published by France's Naval Hydrographic and Oceanographic Service, defines the flag's blue as Pantone 282 C and the red as Pantone 186 C - which also match the B scheme. This classic colour scheme was used at least from 1852 till 1974, i.e. for 122 years, significantly longer than the lighter colours introduced by Giscard d'Estaing in 1974. Alternatively, we could display the B colour scheme with an option for the reader to switch to the A colours. --K1812 (talk) 20:29, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

  Source for color ....are we to use " dark navy blue colour tone" what Pantone are we to guess at?Moxy- 22:18, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  We don't need to guess what colour to use. The album of flags which is published by France's Naval Hydrographic and Oceanographic Service clearly states that Pantone 282 C should be used for the flag of France. --K1812 (talk) 09:19, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

  The only flag I can find on shom.fr is very much not navy blue. Do you have a link to this album? Does it claim to describe the national/state flag rather than (as seems likely in that context) a naval ensign? Does this album specify equal width stripes or the visual effect 30:33:37 (naval) spacing? When was this album published? If more than a few months ago, then it was clearly not trying to describe normal usage. Kevin McE (talk) 11:47, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

  Before i say anything else, i must correct myself. I found the album on-line, the download, however, is not for free. One can download an excerpt of the album for free. Luckily for our case, that excerpt shows the flag of France, and it says that the flag's blue is approximately - and not exactly - Pantone 282 C. The album seems to show a naval flag as well as the national flag. The website gives 08/04/2021 as date, which should be 8 April 2021. This is the link to the free excerpt:

  https://diffusion.shom.fr/pro/downloadable/download/sample/sample_id/73/

  The page for the album is

  https://diffusion.shom.fr/pro/album-des-pavillons-nationaux-et-marques-distinctives.html

  I also found the web site of the Société Française de Vexillologie which has additional information on the French flag (in French):

  https://drapeaux-sfv.org/vexillologie/actualites/article/a-propos-du-bleu-du-drapeau-tricolore

  --K1812 (talk) 12:57, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

  The website gives 08/04/2021 as date It's been saying the same thing since 2019 (long before Macron's flag). M.Bitton (talk) 13:25, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

  That it has said the same thing since 2019 shows that it is not claiming that there has been a change. The SVF article also says that the army uses Pantone 294U (and other, paler, options).

  And therein lies our problem: neither is wrong, both (alongside innumerable other shade combinations, as Largoplazo points out above) are equally right. So we are choosing on the grounds of usage, not legislation. I don't know how long it took the paler version to gain pre-eminence after d'Estaing expressed his preference, probably quite some time (I certainly remember the dark blue in the French classroom at school in the late 70s), but we should not be either promoting or pre-empting the rollout of the newly favoured dark shades that Macron seems to like. We should be operating a flag equivalent of COMMONNAME, and so while it should be kept under review, I think it is premature to go for the dark shades for now. Kevin McE (talk) 14:02, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

• B According to various news reports The flag color was changed to the more navy blue. While this is a subtle change the darker navy color would be more inline with the countries official stance. Tepkunset (talk) 15:36, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

  Reading the article you reference reveals that it is not as cut and dried as "the flag color was changed": "“No communication was made on this change of colour, no instructions were given to change or not all the official flags, the Élysée Palace affirms that the approach is an incentive." Kevin McE (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• B. We don't decide what flag a country use, we only show what they do use. Same as the current flag on Afghanistan's page.--Aréat (talk) 21:20, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• B – per most recent usage, as well as the long history of usage of darker blue as explained by K1812, including the links he provided. Mathglot (talk) 21:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• Both → A. Per WP:NPOV, display both flags here and at Flag of France, together with a footnote explaining their current situation. A, the most commonly used flag, in articles where it's impractical to display both. Please see this discussion for more info. M.Bitton (talk) 22:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
• B Since it is the most prevalent historically and is used by the current government. -- Maykii (talk) 17:52, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• B The old (or new) flag with dark colors is visible at every speech behind President Macron or his Prime Minister, in addition, it is also seen on several official buildings of the French government and on monuments since 2020.Therefore, I think it would be more appropriate for the dark flag to be displayed as the main flag and for the light flag to be taken as the variance. Le Braddock (talk) 23:08, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
• A with footnote, and keep under review. My opinion is both are in widespread use, and no official declaration has been made about phasing out the Marian Blue version, so I think it is too soon to make the jump. Right now, gouvernement.fr is using   #000090 Blue, which is close to Option A. I think this is very different to the Afghanistan situation because the IRA and IEA have completely different designs, while in France, the shade of blue seem to be a matter of personal choice as long as it’s "blue, white, red" according to the constitution, and there is no written law or decree that specifies an official shade. Without such law or decree, the debate over which of the sixty-six shades of blue (i.e. the blue value between 84 to 149 out of 255) is correct will continue without a clear answer. --Minoa (talk) 20:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
• B where speaking of current flag since Navy blue was stated as official. (e.g. mentioned by BBC) Where an article is showing or speaking of prior flag, then show that one. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:55, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

  Be wary of the words you use. 'Official' is a very strong word for your example - a news channel only reports on happenings. If it was official, Macron or a government employee would have stated this much. MarioSuperstar77 (talk) 14:43, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• B or both This flag has the original colours of the french tricolour.Saswiki3 (talk) 17:11, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
• B The variant of the flag in widespread use by the French government should be the version used. In the article on the flag of France both variants should be discussed. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 17:16, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

Option C

@BilledMammal: Is there a particular reason why you're not offering the community the option to select both (see the example on the right and the above discussion where this has been suggested as a compromise)? M.Bitton (talk) 23:30, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the option. I also reworded the RfC statement to make it brief and neutral (I hope you don't mind). I'm not sure about about the "including on this article" part as that is usually implied. M.Bitton (talk) 23:47, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, but I've reverted it back. I omitted the option of both because that option isn't viable for most articles where the flag is used, and because introducing a third option to a potentially contentious RFC will make it much more difficult to come to a consensus. Of course, the absence of the explicit option won't prevent editors from selecting it, though I hope if they do they also select a single flag to use in articles where both cannot be used. I also believe the statement complies with WP:RFCBRIEF and WP:RFCNEUTRAL. BilledMammal (talk) 00:09, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

1) The context is that the ... is suggestive and clearly non neutral. The context (for those who not are familiar with the subject) is covered in the above discussions. 2) This is a special case which deserves to be treated as such. 3) Since its absence won't prevent the editors from selecting it, why not offer it as an option and let the case be put to bed once and for all? M.Bitton (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Added both as an option, with a request to specify which in cases where both is not possible. BilledMammal (talk) 00:37, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the broader context should be omitted from the RfC question per RFCBRIEF. I would personally not include this third choice, but I don't have strong views about it. JBchrch talk 00:28, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Removed, given there seems to be a consensus against it, though I continue to believe it is neutral and not suggestive in either direction - although as I have no opinion on this RFC beyond wanting the full protection removed, I could easily be mistaken. BilledMammal (talk) 00:33, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

If you want the full protection removed, then you must allow everyone to have their say (even if you don't agree with the third option or think it's unnecessary). Otherwise, we'll end up dealing with the same issue again as soon as the protection is lifted. BTW, there is nothing in the guidelines that prevents us from using the switcher template (which works everywhere) for the flag. M.Bitton (talk) 00:39, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

RFC's are not required to include every possible option, such as the flag proposed by User:Largoplazo above, and it is recommended to keep the options limited in order to aid in coming to a consensus - and omitting options doesn't prevent editors from "having their say" and supporting them.

I will mention that the switcher template won't work everywhere - for example, flag icons. However, as I said above, I've already added the option to the RFC. BilledMammal (talk) 00:46, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I missed your comment about the fact that you already added the mention of both. Fair point about the icons (though, that hasn't been discussed and being so small, I doubt anyone would notice). I wouldn't worry about mentioning the switcher template since the compromise suggested by Kevin McE doesn't refer to it. M.Bitton (talk) 01:06, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe I should be complemented by you thinking that something not referred to by me does not merit mention by anyone else, but mainly I would warn that you are investing more importance in my comment than I would. Kevin McE (talk) 18:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Editors are obviously free to mention whatever they want, but when it comes to formulating the RfC, adding what hasn't been discussed or suggested prior to its start (the switcher, the icons, etc.) would create more confusion than necessary. M.Bitton (talk) 00:54, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: - Protection level has been lowered, with clear warnings aplenty of the consequences of changing the flag. Obviously, if consensus is reached here to change, then that can be done without fear of penalty. Mjroots (talk) 05:03, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Does the shade really matter that much? If so, then (if anybody knows how) put in a mechanism that can change it every 24 hrs. GoodDay (talk) 05:47, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Just saying: This is technically possible and easy to implement ({{#ifexpr:{{CURRENTDAY}} mod 2|[[File:Flag of France.svg]]|[[File:Flag of France (1794–1815, 1830–1958).svg]]}} results in today) ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Thinking outside the box: How about uploading "File:Flag of France.gif", which fades between the two versions every 10 seconds? --Minoa (talk) 20:07, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close discussion

@Tol I'm not familiar with Wikipedia so I don't know if it's here that I shall reply.

"There is no consensus on how to present both flags in such articles." Why not just use this one (without the green bar though): c:File:Flag_of_France_(colour_shade_comparison)_063712.svg Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 12:09, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

@Esteban Outeiral Dias: That would probably be an acceptable method of presenting both flags, as it demonstrates the color difference, and both flags have the same content other than color. I saw consensus for presenting both flags when the flag itself is discussed, but I didn't see consensus for specifically using an image like this one to do so. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 14:55, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Protection level reduced

I've reduced the protection level to extended confirmed, per my suggestion at WP:AN and support for that move. I've also edit the page notice to include a notice warning that altering the flag without consensus will render the editor liable to a block. There is also a hidden note warning editors not to change the flag, so all bases are covered. If this proves to be effective, and the RFC above produces a consensus, then in the longer term, protection can be reduced to semi-protection. If it doesn't, then the article can always be returned to full protection. Mjroots (talk) 04:49, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

@Mjroots: now that there is a consensus on the flag, is it appropriate to reduce the protection level further? BilledMammal (talk) 04:34, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Mjroots (talk) 06:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Mjroots: Do you happen to know why Flag A has been replaced? Best, M.Bitton (talk) 17:06, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

The file "Flag of France.svg" was updated, as the consensus is that B is the "Flag of France". I've been going through trying to correct the few cases where A is the intended flag, but there are a lot of articles to check, and I'm not bothering with non-article space. BilledMammal (talk) 17:20, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Overwriting the file wasn't part of the RfC (which now looks confusing, as it discusses two flags that look the same). M.Bitton (talk) 17:24, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it is part of the question; if the consensus was that the flag of France is B, then the file "Flag of France.svg" should be updated, both to implement the change, and to prevent editors accidentally using the wrong flag. BilledMammal (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Maybe MSGJ would like to comment. Mjroots (talk) 17:30, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

It most definitely wasn't part of the RfC which was about which flag to use in the wp articles and not which is the correct "flag of France" (we're in no position to make such a decision).M.Bitton (talk) 17:34, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

The question was "Which flag should be used as the flag of France, including on this article?" The file would appear to be part of that. BilledMammal (talk) 17:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Overwriting the file was not discussed, that's a fact. M.Bitton (talk) 17:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

If we reverted to the lighter one, we should add a disclaimer like the one that was added on the file of the Canadian flag. Here is an example:

SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 09:54, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 December 2021

The flag wich we can see on the page "France" is the old flag. On the new french flag, there is a dark blue instead the skyblue.

The new flag is this :

Drapeau

Modificateur651 (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. See#Protection level reduced. Signed, I Am Chaos (talk) 16:53, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

An ongoing discussion about whether to do this has been going on for days, above at #RFC regarding the flag, preceded by another two-week discussion at #Flag change. Largoplazo (talk) 18:26, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Edit equest on 6 December 2022

The emblem of France is showing the unofficial emblem and needs to be changed to either one. -->

Official arms of France

Official coat of arms of France

The emblem on the Wikipedia page is showing the diplomatic emblem. I need to change the emblem to the one on the right and redirect the link to the page.SaberingSidewinder (talk) 17:13, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi! I'm the editor who previously changed the emblem from the republican emblem (sorry if this terminology is incorrect) that you are requesting to the diplomatic emblem (it was discussed here). It was because at the time:

1. As far as I could find there was no law in force in France that designated the republican emblem as the official emblem of France
2. The diplomatic emblem was the only one in use by the French national government in an official capacity
3. On French Wikipedia the diplomatic emblem is used

Have these changed in the meantime, or can you elaborate on why this article should use the republican emblem instead? -Emphrase (talk) 13:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello ! Indeed, France has no official emblem, but the emblem shown by this Wikipedia is used on the main cover of our passports. I think it is correct to use this one. The emblem proposed by SaberingSidewinder is the emblem of the President of the Fifth French Republic (not present on the English Wikipedia but present on the French Wikipedia). -Cyygma (talk) 14:47, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

RFC regarding the flag (deuxième partie)

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This was discussed very recently at Talk:France#RFC regarding the flag which decided upon the "navy blue" flag (see that discussion for further information), and I see no reason to start it all off again. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:29, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

---

"Marian Blue" flag; A

"Navy Blue" flag; B

Do we think we should revert to the A shade and add a disclaimer similar to the disclaimer that was added on the file of the Canadian flag? SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 08:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• Procedural close – Wasn't this just decided three days ago, after an Rfc that ran for a month? Mathglot (talk) 09:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @Mathglot: I missed the RFC. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 09:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 13 February 2022

I think you should add napoleonic era in establishment box 2603:800C:3400:2AFB:587E:27E3:7EC3:3C74 (talk) 06:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --Ferien (talk) 12:26, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

roman empire

today we are learning about france and we need help finding out stuff so if you can help us say who dat? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.9.209.118 (talk) 18:36, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi there. On Wikipedia, an article talk page like this is only for the purpose of commenting on the state of the associated article and discussing improvements to it, not for general discussion or asking questions. However, there is a Wikipedia:Reference desk that you can visit to try to get information that you're looking for. Largoplazo (talk) 21:35, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 May 2022

"(French: République française[14])" should be "(French: République française)[14]" 84.196.39.52 (talk) 18:50, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done. Per MOS:CITEPUNCT: Where a footnote applies only to material within parentheses, the ref tags belong just before the closing parenthesis. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 20:01, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2022

The total GDP values for both PPP and Nominal should be changed from $3,667 trillion to $3.667 trillion and from $2,936 trillion to $2.936 trillion respectively. As1999610 (talk) 17:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: This article is written in British English where they use commas for decimals. DarthFlappy 19:11, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

That's incorrect. Thousands separators are governed by MOS:DIGITS and decimal points by MOS:DECIMAL, irrespective of the language variety in use. I'm going to make the change. Largoplazo (talk) 20:22, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Largoplazo (talk) 20:25, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Oops, my bad. DarthFlappy 21:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)