Talk:French language

Lenlo's intervention - Ethnologue

If you use Ethnologue for the total native speakers of the french language, you should use Ethnologue for the german language in order to have equal treatment... German native speakers are only 77 millions according to Ethnologue https://www.ethnologue.com/language/deu --In vino vinitas (talk) 10:56, 16 November 2016 (fr)

That's actually a very valid observation. Yet nobody adressed it for almost 6 years now. Intuslegere (talk) 22:23, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

But according to Enthologue, German isn't spoken in Austria. But we count it, so that country alone would add 9M to the total. The difference is because the para-French languages have all been driven nearly to extinction, while many of the para-German languages like Bavarian are doing well. — kwami (talk) 21:46, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Syria on the map

French is not a minority or secondary language in Syria. The color on that country should be removed from the map. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Somuchknowledge (talk • contribs) 01:54, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Addressed below. — kwami (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Infobox map

We have no criterion for what counts as a local minority, and coloring a whole state fluorescent green because there are expats in one city is misleading (plus why shouldn't, say, Mexico count?), so I removed the green. Vietnam isn't even 1% francophone. I'm happy to put it back if we can come to an agreement as to what should count as green. However, I did change Romania to light blue, as it's part of the francophonie, and added Andorra. (Though removed Syria.) And added the Channel Isles as official. From this map I rediscovered that French is an official language of Puducherry, so I added that to the infobox of this article.

Anyway, if there are other changes that need to be made to the map, could people list them here? Is the green worth restoring? Maybe as small squares the way it's done on e.g. the map for Italian? — kwami (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Surely being part of the Francophonie (Romania) is not enough on its own, since you excluded Vietnam (which is also a member)? Double sharp (talk) 07:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I'll remove Romania.

Romania's made a big deal about French, Vietnam not so much, and there are many more French speakers in Romania, percentage-wise, though all the talk might be part of separating itself from the Eastern Block and re-orientating to the West. By raw numbers, there aren't as many Francophones in Romania as in several other European countries which are left grey (Netherlands, Italy, Portugal). — kwami (talk) 07:52, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Thanks!

When I read such language maps, honestly the questions I'm most interested in are: if I go there, (1) will the signs be in language X? (2) will a significant number of people generally understand me if I speak to them in language X? (3) do people naturally speak language X to each other, or do they just learn it for school and chatting up foreigners? (4) even if (1) and (3) aren't true in most regions, might they be true for a region where a linguistic minority is concentrated? I guess Romania might fit (2) but not (1), (3), and (4), based on the high percentage of French speakers. But I think (2) is a separate thing not on the map (it's more like the map under English language#Geographical distribution), though I'd be curious about it for de Swaan's 13 supercentral languages. (And for (2) as phrased, I guess it would become tricky for cases of mutual intelligibility, like going to Azerbaijan and speaking to the locals in Turkish.) Double sharp (talk) 08:32, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree Romania (and Syria) should be removed. French Polynesia and New Caledonia should be dark blue as French is the largest language spoken at home in those terrirories. It would be cool if there was some way to show the significant populations of native French speakers in Libreville, Yaoundé, and Abidjan even if the countries as a whole are not native francophone. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 17:49, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

@Joiedevivre123321: all but the last had already been done, but someone replaced the corrected map with an old one. I restored it -- is that better?

We could certainly add francophone communities in cities. The question for me would be consistency -- do we have a RS for which cities to include? E.g. London was once counted as one of them. — kwami (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! This map is much better. I feel like the overseas territories should all be dark blue though. Reunion, Guinee Française, Guadeloupe, and Martinique are all majority native Francophone. Mayotte is mostly French as a second language so I think the lighter color is appropriate for that one. That's just me being nitpicky though the map looks great! Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 19:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

According to Ethnologue, Reunion is 20% natively French-speaking, French Guiana 8%, Martinique 4% and Guadeloupe 2%. — kwami (talk) 20:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Good catch. I guess the creoles are often not fully intelligible with French from the Hexagon and are their own thing. Merci pour la carte! :) Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 14:14, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Kwamikagami,

If there is a way we could show native proficiency of French in Gabon.

Based on this research, it is apparent French is natively spoken at an ever increasing rate across the entire country.

Paper: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327159_From_foreign_to_national_a_review_of_the_status_of_French_in_Gabon

Key facts:

"It has been noted that French is increasingly be-coming the mother tongue and the initial language of the younger generations in urban Gabon (Pambou, 1998:147; Ndinga-Koumba-Binza, 2005a:72 & 2005b:141; Idiata, 2008:85; cf. Blanchon, 1994). In fact, studies by Ntong Amvame (1984), Bouché (1998), Mbondzi (1998), Ompoussa (1998), Itembo (1999) and Mouloungui Nguimbyt (2002) have shown that pupils of various ages and grades at schools learn French more efficiently than any other Gabonese language. Idiata (2008:200 & 2009:126) has also noted that some pupils do not speak any of the Gabonese native languages at all.

One of the reasons for this phenomenon (i.e. French being the mother tongue of younger generations) is cross-ethnic marriages.

In fact, many couples of mixed ethnicity prefer French rather than Gabonese native languages as the code for better communication within the family. Children from a family of this kind have no choice but to acquire French as their first language. The children learn the language at home from the parents before they even get to school, therefore lessening the chances of learning any of the Gabonese native languages.

This urbanisation is also to be considered as a cause for French being the initial language of Gabonese younger generations. In fact, “in certain urban contexts there is a large degree of learning by contact at an early age” (Lafage, 1993:216)."

1. 80% of the country speaks French. ( La Francophonie dans le monde 2006-2007 published by the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie. Nathan, Paris, 2007)
2. French is spoken natively in the urban areas. (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267327159_From_foreign_to_national_a_review_of_the_status_of_French_in_Gabon)
3. Urbanization rate of Gabon is at 90.42% in 2021. (https://www.statista.com/statistics/526989/urbanization-in-gabon/)
4. Almost every adult in Gabon can speak French. (https://www.britannica.com/place/Gabon/Economy)

It is clear this is more than just an official language.

It is similar to the Portuguese language in Angola, and the status should be reflected as such.

Thanks! IntelloFR (talk) 04:18, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

(sorry the link for point 4 should be this: https://www.britannica.com/place/Gabon ) IntelloFR (talk) 04:25, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

I had no idea Gabon was so urban! Our map at 'urbanization' shows it as perhaps the highest in Africa.

I agree, if Gabon fits the criteria, it should be colored appropriately. Do you know of any actual figures? Because what you have basically just says "a lot", which while interesting isn't helpful. — kwami (talk) 04:38, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Ethnologue has the following:

1,515,000 [French-speakers] in Gabon, all users. L1 users: 265,000 in Gabon (2021). L2 users: 1,250,000 (Marcoux et al 2022).

That's for a population of 2,233,000 [no date].

From that, it would seem that Gabon is 2∕3 French-speaking, but only 12% natively French-speaking. That's still a high number, and promises to only increase, but it's not high enough to warrant coloring Gabon as an L1 rather than L2 French-speaking country. — kwami (talk) 04:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

That is fair! Thanks for checking - I agree, it will only increase in the coming years IntelloFR (talk) 05:54, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Kwamikagami @Joiedevivre123321

Mali no longer lists French as an official language, and the map should be updated.

https://www.africanews.com/2023/07/26/mali-drops-french-as-official-language//

https://www.okayafrica.com/mali-replaces-french-as-official-language/

https://allafrica.com/stories/202307270365.html

https://www.wionews.com/videos/mali-13-other-spoken-languages-to-receive-official-status-620315

https://africafeeds.com/2023/07/26/french-is-no-longer-malis-official-language/

Thanks IntelloFR (talk) 02:23, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

According to the map key, med. blue is for 'States where [Frech] is an official or administrative language', which it still is in Mali. I updated the key here to agree with the one on the map itself. — kwami (talk) 05:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I see Laos and Cambodia have been added back: is this correct? Double sharp (talk) 09:02, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

User Moalli added them back in w the edit summary "SE Asian countries where French is still used in administrative settings." If that's not supported, we can remove them again. — kwami (talk) 12:16, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Laos and Cambodia should absolutely not be on the map. Not sure how we got back to this version haha. Even in the Francophonie's annual document they say concerning Laos "l n’y a pas de filière francophone à proprement parler en dehors des départements de français et de 2 écoles normales supérieures qui forment des professeurs de français" and concerning Cambodia they outline the small number of Francophones for example "L’anglais est la première langue d’enseignement et LVE enseignée dans le supérieur ; suivi par le français, qui est utilisé comme langue d’enseignement pour certains cursus, surtout dans les programmes de co-diplomation." There are certainly francophones and French learners in these countries but it's not an administrative language. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

The color is for cultural use. The source for our Laos article says that a third of students study in French-language schools and that the older generation speaks it. The first claim appears to be grossly exaggerated, so I don't know how much credence to give the second. Anyway, pending consensus to change I reverted that edit. — kwami (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Zorion has been switching back to the PNG map because this one doesn't include native Francophone cities. That would be worth adding. But I haven't seen a RS yet for which cities are francophone, and know from personal experience that some of the ones shown on his map are not (L2 but not native as claimed). — kwami (talk) 12:38, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

That source is from the 90s when this was more true. Today I think there's still some TV and radio programs available in French but it's not widely spoken on an administrative or cultural level outside of people with niche interest in French. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 12:49, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't Algeria need to be darker blue then if the criteria is administrative?

Algeria has way more french speakers than Mali- and the government itself uses french in an administrative way.

Like Mali - french is not an official language, but still an administrative one. IntelloFR (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't know, but I would think that most Algerian govt docs and proceedings are in Arabic, and most Malian ones in French. Is that wrong?

Also, the Malian constitution specifies French as the working language of the govt. — kwami (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

That is incorrect. While Algeria has tried to force the use of MSA, in reality French still dominates.

Wikipedia article here: French language in Algeria

Road signs, billboards, street signs, are all in French/ Arabic: File:Tram alger travaux 3.jpg

Usage of French in Algerian Institutions: https://menaaffairs.com/three-ministries-in-algeria-end-the-use-of-french-within-their-institutions/

While this article does claim three ministries have stopped using French, it says clearly "In Algeria, most of the ministries, with the exception of the Ministry of Defense, use French extensively in their internal correspondence."

Higher education is almost entirely in French as well:

https://www.al-fanarmedia.org/2019/09/algerias-minister-of-higher-education-encourages-switch-from-french-to-english/

Again, while this article indicates that they are trying to switch to English, it clearly states:

"But Ben Sari noted that making the transition from French to English would be difficult for many students and professors because most Algerians have been educated in French from primary school onwards"

"She chose to specialize in French because, she said, “French is the main language of the labor market. Most open positions require the French language, especially in education.”"

"“Ninety percent of the professors who teach us have not mastered English. They and their students all think in French. Medicine in Algeria is taught entirely in French,” he said."

From government, education to street signed - French is dominate in Algeria.

They also have around 11.2 million French speakers, many more than Mali. (French language in Algeria#cite note-3)

It doesn't make sense to have Mali as darker blue, when Algeria is one of the largest Francophone countries. IntelloFR (talk) 17:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Please see this paper for more information on French in Algeria:

https://ir.library.louisville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1214&context=honors

Highlights:

"The advantage gained by knowing French is still observable in Algeria today."

"However, Bouteflika’s ministers and even Bouteflika himself have been known to speak French in the presence of the reporters. Sensing an easement on linguistic scrutiny, Algerian society responded by using more French (KashaniSabet 277). It reappeared on public signs, leaflets, and in advertising campaigns, even those produced by the government. Advanced research, even in the humanities, remains French almost in its entirety (McDougall 255). It would seem that not only has French not been erased from Algerian society, but that it has experienced a resurgence following a slackening of government restrictions on language"

"Moreover, despite a smaller readership, French online news sites are more common that Arabic ones'

"As more Algerians move into the middle-class social sector, more people are likely to obtain higher levels of education. The French language remains synonymous with Algerian higher education, so logically, the level of French speakers should rise. It seems, therefore, that Arabization policies have not eradicated French because they have failed to replace French with Arabic in spheres of higher education. I" IntelloFR (talk) 17:14, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay. Change Algeria to medium blue then? — kwami (talk) 19:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I would say :

1. Update the definitions.
2. Medium blue should be only those with official language - and light blue should be the cultural / administrative languages.
3. Mali would then be turned light blue.

Either way - Algeria and Mali need to be of equal status as they are similar in their interactions with the French language. IntelloFR (talk) 20:56, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Which polities would count for the last? Besides Mali and Algeria, we show Mauritania, Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Lebanon, Louisiana, New Hampshire and Maine. Do they all qualify if we exclude Laos and Cambodia? I don't mean L1-speaking minorities: those should probably be handled with dark blue dots if we can find a RS for them. — kwami (talk) 22:03, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

1. Cambodia and Laos do not quality - there is zero indication that French is used in an administration or even casual sense.
2. Mali and Algeria, Mauritania, Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Lebanon, Louisiana, New Hampshire and Maine should remain light blue.
3. There should be dark blue spots for cities that are now L1 speakers - like in Louisiana, Gabon, and Cameroon to name a few.

Example:

If you go to Lafayette, Louisiana, you will see French on road signs and find people who speak it: https://www.krvs.org/2023-05-30/new-speakers-of-french-in-louisiana-continuing-a-legacy

(That article also points to the native French speakers still in Louisiana today)

If you go to Cambodia, you will not find anything even remotely close:

https://www.khmertimeskh.com/490756/few-people-speak-french-in-cambodia/ IntelloFR (talk) 02:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I would say Laos, Cambodia, and possibly Vietnam should still be included on the map, but maybe not as fully colored as there is still some usage in administration in the former two and cultural connections for all three. In Laos, you will find French on street signs and on government buildings and many shops/institutions (such as the Bibliothèque Nationale/National Library) and the language is still used in administrative settings: https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/asie/Laos.htm.

In Cambodia, you will also still find occasional signage in French, and while it's true English is much more present now, there appears to be a revival in its presence in education: https://www.khmertimeskh.com/501045780/master-plan-for-french-language-2022-2025-signed/. It's also still used in courts and foreign affairs: https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/asie/cambodge.htm (the article also indicates a region of Cambodia called the "ceinture française" where French is still a second language), https://www.mfaic.gov.kh/ (website of the Ministère des Affaires Étrangèrs).

In Vietnam, French is still a working language in fields like medicine and law and it appears the government has acknowledged that it has an important cultural value in the country (https://vn.ambafrance.org/culture-5278) and is using the language to increase economic cooperation with other Francophone countries rather than resort to English, especially in Africa (https://fr.nhandan.vn/loif-et-le-vietnam-soutiennent-la-promotion-de-la-formation-a-la-langue-francaise-post81128.html). It was quite surprising to read that French was the first foreign language in 32 of the country's provinces last year according to the Ministry of Education: https://lecourrier.vn/promouvoir-lenseignement-du-francais-au-vietnam/969539.html.

If including the entire countries as light blue might be misleading, I think maybe they should be included in stripes or with a dot, to indicate there is still a cultural and administrative presence there but not so much so to the scale of say Lebanon. - Moalli (talk) 02:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Moalli,

While there are students of French in Vietnam, and it is occasionally used in medicine to an extent, it is a far stretch to say that it's a language of use in the country.

Would you be able to provide any sources on street signs in french, government websites, or examples of politicians using french?

If not, a green square might be the best option here.

I personally have asked numerous people from Southeast asia, and the same answer comes up: Its all English now. IntelloFR (talk) 05:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi IntelloFR, I do recall seeing some remnant street signage and on some buildings/structures (mostly from the colonial and South Vietnam eras) in French in Vietnam but the only thing I could find via image search is this example in Hoi An: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-vietnam-hoi-an-old-town-original-french-colonial-shop-sign-advertising-12522752.html. Some educational institutes also feature French signage such as the University of Da Lat (File:Dai Hoc Da Nang Sign.JPG). Nevertheless, I concur that this doesn't support this criteria. As for politicians, Vietnam has a diplomat tasked specifically for the OIF and he did an interview in Tunisia (in French, of course) about the importance of furthering cooperation with the OIF and other Francophone countries: https://vnanet.vn/vi/anh/anh-thoi-su-quoc-te-1049/dai-su-dinh-toan-thang-tra-loi-phong-van-ttxvn-nhan-dip-hoi-nghi-thuong-dinh-cac-nuoc-noi-tieng-phap-6447276.html (note: website is in Vietnamese but interview is in French).

Examples of government websites include the city of Can Tho (which is home to many educational institutes that use French primarily or in a bilingual manner): https://www.cantho.gov.vn/wps/portal/france and Thua Thien-Hue province: https://thuathienhue.gov.vn/fr-fr/.

With the limited resources that I have found so far, I think that Vietnam's color inclusion on the map would not be as strong as that of Laos and Cambodia. However, I don't agree with bringing back the green squares again as those were controversial and might trigger other editors placing them in questionable places such as London (large French expat community yes, but significant and influential cultural influence no). I would say that Laos and Cambodia should be colored light blue again or at least striped in that color if many believe that the scale of French usage there shouldn't reflect equivalence to others in that color like Mauritania. I have personal connections in Laos and can attest that French still indeed has a presence at the administrative level despite a rising use of English.

As for Vietnam, maybe a light blue dot would work better to keep with consistency on the legend as in the previous map used on here to acknowledge its cultural role. After all, it seems like Vietnam is becoming rather ambitious in asserting its presence and acknowledging its role in La Francophonie in the last decade, with the language's popularity rising after being dormant for a long time:

* https://en.vietnamplus.vn/vietnam-calls-for-intensive-cooperation-within-francophonie-community/139974.vnp

* https://en.vietnamplus.vn/oif-secretary-general-attends-launch-ceremony-of-francophone-space-in-hanoi/224075.vnp

Separate issue, shouldn't Tunisia and Morocco also be shaded medium blue if Algeria and Mali are as well? The usage of French in both countries seems to be of similar scale and much more than in the other light blue locales like Lebanon. - Moalli (talk) 09:25, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I think part of the problem might be not having clear criteria for distinguishing the different colors. If French is the language of govt and education in Mali and Algeria, I can see coloring them the same as countries where it's the official language. The difference is a legal technicality. But if some other language is used in govt/administration and education, then what is the cut-off point for coloring the country light blue?

I agree about blue dots for cities with native L1 populations (and not just expats). We can find sources for individual cities, but that could bias the map toward the areas we bother to check. Do we have a source for L1 francophone populations in Canada, for example? Can we find a RS for such populations across the world, so we don't introduce a regional bias?

The PNG map has blue dots for Lome and Cotonou, but AFAIK those are not L1 francophone cities: the people speak Gbe (Ewe and Fon), and although there is mixture from other parts of the country, so some immigrants may need to rely on French (many if not most will simply pick up Gbe), their children will generally speak Gbe. So AFAICT that's more like French expats in London. — kwami (talk) 19:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Zorion:

I am pinging Zorion because I think we should coordinate with WP-fr. — kwami (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

First, this discussion needs to be moved to where it should be,here (talk:Map-Francophone World.svg). If you move your last comment, I'll respond to it. If you can separate Canada issues from Africa issues, It will be appreciated. -- Zorion ^blabla 22:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Language proportions within the EU

The text about language proportions within the EU (and the associated map) evidently pre-dates Brexit and needs some update. 2A01:CB15:8068:9B00:35D3:50DE:59E2:ACC9 (talk) 20:10, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

States field in infobox

Hi Blaze Wolf and DeSant05134, came across this page and saw

Native to France, now worldwide

"now worldwide" seemed very ambiguous and not exactly accurate, the template gives this field the descriptor:

countries in which it is mainly spoken. You do not have to define both this and region. Do not use flag icons except for national or official status (WP:INFOBOXFLAG). Direct links to country articles are generally not useful, and distract from useful links. Consider 'Languages of [country]' or '[ethnicity] in [country]' links instead.

The edit appears to have originated from Special:Diff/1115324987 by Moalli since around half a year ago. "France, Switzerland, Belgium, Luxembourg" was listed prior. Similar pages appear to do similar things. "now worldwide" was removed a week ago by DeSant05134 and reverted by Blaze Wolf.

Not exactly what to change it to, just "France" fits the Template descriptor, doing something like Chinese language linking to Francophonie seems good as well. The one prior might work as well. Justiyaya 04:28, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I changed it to "France, Switzerland, Belgium, Canada, and other locations in the Francophonie", as those are the main countries where it's native, but there are also e.g. cities in francophone Africa with large populations of native speakers. Do you think that's missing anything critical? We can't give all the details, of course; the info box is just an overview. (Also, for Spanish I removed Eq. Guinea and added the US.) — kwami (talk) 01:02, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Note that for English language we don't use that parameter at all. Another option would be just a note such as "see Francophone world". — kwami (talk) 02:06, 2 April 2023 (UTC)

Don't think anything huge is missing, thanks Kwamikagami :D think the note would work as well but not a lot more different. Justiyaya 07:38, 2 April 2023 (UTC)