Talk:Tiger

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Liger refernces

The article makes some statements about growth inhibiting and growth promoting genes in the development of ligers, but references "Sequence analysis in a nutshell". I think a better reference for this could be found. Does sequence analysis in a nutshell have a discussion about ligers? Even if it does, is there a more easily accessible reference? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.88.0.18 (talk) 21:04, 14 October 2008 (UTC) Why not also mention cross breeding experiments between tiger and leopard in captivity, and the possibility that tiger/leopard hybrids may exist in the wild? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 14:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

tigers vs bears

It's reasonable to mention that brown bears also killed tigers (including adult male tigers). Otherwise this section is looking somewhat biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.218.12.80 (talk) 20:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

No because that isn't a common occurance at all, and when this does occur this is mainly because of a fight over food or protecting cubs. However, the opposite can be said as adult siberian tigers have killed adult brown bears. There are some that even put bear cubs as a prey item of tigers because this tigers killing bear cubs isn't out of the ordinary.Mcelite (talk) 21:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)mcelite

What does your "no" mean? There is an account of tigers killed by brown bears (including male adult tigers). Your "no" means that you want to favor only one side of the conflict. Did you read any original research paper on this subject?

My no means that it doesn't happen often enough to mention. Yes adult male tigers have been killed by brown bears and vice versa. I do study all big cats including the small cats. There has been some research done on this, but not extensively. You could even watch Animal Planet or Discovery Channel programs which sadly at times out due scientific journals because you can visually see what's going on.Mcelite (talk) 03:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)mcelite

In Peter Matthiessen's book, Tigers in the Snow , he writes that fights have gone both ways, and that both species avoid the adult male of the other. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kron650 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Very true especially since cats often try there hardest to avoid fights which is an actually reason why house cats run away from dogs. They try to avoid confrontation as much as possible.Mcelite (talk) 17:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)mcelite

"My no means that it doesn't happen often enough to mention". Killing adult brown bears by tigers does not happen often enough, however, it's mentioned. The other way around happens as well, I don't see any reason to hide this info. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.64.77.99 (talk) 10:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well it has to be cited from a reliable source that shows that the fights do go both ways and that it is not biased.Mcelite (talk) 16:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)mcelite

+1--Altaileopard (talk) 18:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Tiger/Archive 2#brown bear as prey--Altaileopard (talk) 18:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

For instance, russian scientist Kostoglod examined all reliable encounters (until 1977) and found that in 9 cases a brown bear has killed a tiger and in 11 cases the other way around.

Kostoglod V.E. Relations between Amur tiger and Brown and Black Asiatic Bears in the Primorsky region // Rare mammal species and their conservation. Moscow, "Nauka", 1977

Another modern scientist, I. Seredkin, has mentioned 12 known cases when a tiger was killed by a brown bear.

Seredkin, Ivan. The ecology, behavior, management and conservation status of brown bears in Sikhote-Alin (in Russian). Far Eastern National University, Vladivostok, Russia, pp. 1-252

There is no modern or historical evidence of male fully-grown brown bears killed by tigers. The largest one (see Geptner and Sludsky) is a 170 kg male adult bear which is far from being a big Ursus arctos lasiotus. Brown bears are also known to kill adult male tigers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.218.12.80 (talk) 14:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

page can not open. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pharohxz (talk • contribs) 23:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

"There is no modern or historical evidence of male fully-grown brown bears killed by tigers."

Did you not read the wikilink?: Talk:Tiger/Archive 2#brown bear as prey.--Altaileopard (talk) 14:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

THAT ALtaileopard link doesn´t prove anything ( it has no scientific reports for example) is biased and full with the participation of a tiger fan that posts there what he wants. Well, tiger wikipedia link is full of BIASED SUPOSITIONS too, by the way. Is a sad true, why tiger and cat fans destroy the reality and beauty of tigers and felines in general with fantasy stories and hoaxes.I work here with fauna too, I´m a researcher and a protectionist. We are trying to protect the iberian lynx btw. But let´s separate facts from preferences,please. Is very well known that the biggest brown bear ever confirmedly killed by a siberian tiger was only a small brown bear with 170 kgs ( Kaplanov) ( Amur full grown male brown bears ( Ursus arctus lasiotus) stay at between 300-360kgs when over 15 years old). Is very well known that, on the other hand, full grown male tigers were already reportedly killed and eaten by adult brown bears ( Kostoglod,Sysoev, and many others,reported that, I can provide more scientists names and reports for whoever wants it...). People have a lot of overestimation on tigers, but lack a lot of scientific sense: First- anatomically, brown bears have denser bones, are stronger, have thick fur, much bigger stamina, than siberian tigers. Brown bear claws are no joke can reach 9 inch and teeth maybe not as long as tiger ones, when compared animals of around the same size. Though really big bears ( 1500 pounds or more) have bigger teeth and stronger bite.However bite strenght doesn´t matter for animals that use much paw strikes. And brown bears have much stronger paw striking. In californian pitfights, a grizzly bear killed male lions with few paw strikes ( I can provide the descriptions of that happening)and even bulls. Tigers are agile ( but for that they have weaker bones), have strong paws, hook shape claws ( like polar bear and american black bear), strong bite and big teeth. These are also excelent weapons. But let´s say a tiger with 500 or really big at 600 lbs, would have an hard time to fight with an adult full grown brown bear that can be on the 700, 800, 1000, 1500, or even over 2000 pounds mark ( very rarely). Russian scientists gathered data of tigers taking brown bears, and only observed female and cub killings by tigers and one young male with 170 kgs ( with an half the size of a full grown bear....). On the other hand and differently there are reports of brown bears killings and taking full grown male tigers (not to say many cubs and females). Also siberian tigers are a part of the diet of brown bears ( or were because tigers are very rare now), because brown bears were already seen killing a tiger that defend his killing carcass and after eating the carcass start to eat also the tiger. ( I can give more info about this for whoever wants it). Also there is some informations on Interspecies conflict link(http://en.allexperts.com/q/Interspecies-Conflict-3754/) and forum ( http://en.allexperts.com/q/Interspecies-Conflict-3754/) ( on which is debatable who´s the ultimate predator for example or who has advantage on a fight) that´s runned by scientists, zoologists and experts, and they all agree that big bears ( brown and polar) have an advantage over tigers. Some of them are cat specialists,by the way. So I hope that the tiger wikipedia should refer this too, and not saying, with no backup, just that tigers take black and brown bears, whenever they want. These 8 % of their diet ( that´s only true if you gather both brown and black bear) and regarding brown bears is only for juvenile and small bears, show a false pretending in favor of tigers. So this wikipedia sound like an hoax for every scientist, I´m really sorry. Tigers are also part of the menu of brown bears but is stupid to argue that they are part of their diet. Both species have more rather territory dispute than properly a prey-predator relationship, of course, specially when we talk about adults relations. The defecation act on the kills is made by both species which clearly indicates a dispute not a stupid joke like some say of prey-predator relation... So do as you wish. Interestingly, is that there are more than one tiger wikipedia, each one show different facts, as the same for bears. And contradiction is vulgar on all of them. So we should believe in which?? I believe in scientific reports, I´m afraid... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.201 (talk) 18:21, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Oviously you've never seen a tiger up close but if you want to see one in person one day I suggest you think that again - their stealth and power is amazing. A tiger can kill an adult person in just a matter of seconds!--96.232.59.59 (talk) 01:20, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes that sounds very scientific SineBot. Powley (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

A bear can kill a person with just one full paw swipe, I don´t care if a tiger kill a person in seconds... Irrelevant. A brown bear isn´t a person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.220 (talk) 03:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Now is impossible to edit this joke of wikipedia informations...LOL. So you tiger or cat fans jokes now must feel really happy... LOL. Interestingly is that your joke about tigers and bears is denied by several web links. So people find your info somewhat biased, not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.174.37.220 (talk) 03:11, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Male tigers vs. male lions

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

This is all very interesting but has nothing to do with improving the article. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Any further discussion on this should be taken off-Wiki. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 11:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, as much as it is true that the biggest male tigers are about 100 pounds heavier than the biggest male lions (400 vs. 500 pounds) one should not forget to mention that tigers live in colder countries and that therefore they are quite adipose compared to lions as they are made almost solely of muscles and bones. And also one should mention the dense mane is a superb protection of the endangered neck and throat area. Tigers have a naked neck and lack this protection. Regarding all this a male lion is much stronger and a better fighter than a male tiger. --Mustafa Mustamann (talk) 01:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, biggest of tigers can out grow biggest of lions by 150 to 200 pounds. Secondly most tigers live in India and India is a very hot place. Bangal Tigers are like lions build in muscles and bones. Amur tigers have thick fat laylers. So, your argument that tigers are adipose is false. I think you have never seen a tiger-versus-tiger fight. They usually fight to the end. And who said that lions are stronger than tiger. Tiger are symbol of power for a reason and that's because they are very, very powerful and much stronger than lions. So in an epic battle between an adult male tiger and adult male lion, the tiger would win but the fight would be really close and to the end.Upol007 (talk) 14:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC) Male lion is called king of the jungle he dosn't even live in the jungle; they live in grass lands. The male tiger is the biggest of all the big cats —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.15.160 (talk) 15:43, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, in fact the male tiger is the biggest cat found in the wild, but the biggest cat of all is the Liger. They can weigh as much as 1000 lbs, twice as much as a very big lion Upol007 (talk) 14:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It is not a real species though. So it doesn´t count as it doesn´t occur naturally in the wild. It's rather a human-made experiment —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.183.20.76 (talk) 00:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed interesting to know who the winner of this big fight would be but considering some research I did, the tiger would win most of the time. In fact, the only time the lion was a winner was in a unfair male lion vs. tigrees fight and even then it bearly won (thanks to its big mane). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.93.76 (talk) 04:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This isn't such a close fight as some people may think. Rather, the tiger is a clear winner in my mind, and, when statistics are counted, which cannot be ignored, give it the edge. This argument is mainly based on the fact that tigres are larger than lions. In fact, much larger than lions sometimes. They will weigh about 160-210 pounds more campared to the African lion (the Siberian tiger was the one compared), so I think this can make all the difference. However, body mass is not the only major weapon that the tiger has. Tigers have larger paws as well, with which by the way they will swipe faster than lions. The canine teeth of an average tiger can grow as long as four [4] inches, while a lion has canines that measure 3.1 or 3 inches (this can make a difference whent it comes to the fatal bite), and speaking of the final bite, I may say that the bite of a tiger has more pressure as its skull structure is wider rather than longer as opposed to that of the lion. Agility is without doubt a factor ... and the tiger has it too.

SOME MORE ARGUMET:

Largest lion in the wild -- 690 lbs. [male man-eater shot dead in Africa]

Largest Siberian [Amur] tiger in the wild -- 840 pounds

Largest Bengal tiger in the wild -- 870 pounds

Largest lion in captivity -- named Simba. It weighed it at more than 820 ponds

Largest tiger held in captivity -- forgot its name. Was of the Siberian subspecies and had a mass of about 1,024 pounds.

So, I hope a good idea is created - TIGER IS THE STRONGER FIGHTER ! - --96.232.63.175 (talk) 23:53, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am loving seeing people try to outright throw it down. Please don't state things as fact and pretend like you actually know what you are talking about. This is all theory. And there has been discussion about size. First of all that is not all that matters especially when there are other contributing factors TO size (and otherwise for that matter) such as climate and fat content. Carrying on- to people who say Bengal Tigers are heavier (which they are, BTW)...150-227 KG for a male lion...180-248 KG for a male Bengal Tiger. (except in colder climates where they will have more FAT)Powley (talk) 20:23, 5 August 2008 (UTC).

Tiger's poor fate

To me tigers are mysterious,dangerous, and adorable ...of course ppl would think why do you find an animal that can rip your face off so adorable?

Well if you knew as much as i did about tigers you would know that as cubs their fathers will sometimes attack and possibly even kill their cubs just because of pure jealousy...of course if the mother were to interfere then they would die as well...

Because of their beautiful coats they are able to hide in their environment....but are also hunted because of it...of the many types of tigers 3 are extinct just because of this...and now all of the tigers are highly close to being extinct...they are very endangered.

I'm sure those have heard that there are people that tearing down trees...where if you look at it over 3 billion species live...including the tiger in these areas...this is why the zoos have been taking special care of them and why there are secret locations on where they are trying to regain the loss of tigers.

Many people in China have a belief that various tiger parts have medicinal properties killing them for purposes of medicine. There is no proof to support these beliefs. The use of tiger parts medicine use in China is already banned, and the government has made it clear that if they were to be caught this would be punishable by death. This has been banned in China since 1993. Still, there are a number of tiger farms in the country where they are breeding the cats for MONEY. It is estimated that between 4000 and 5000 captured, wild animals live in these farms today.China's wealthy businessmen are known to eat tiger penis as they feel it is a must do thing.

As you can see some people are sick...truly sick...but its in there heritage and though we have laws,there is somehow still animal cruelty and there is nothing we can do as hard as we try...fortunately there are people who but their lives in danger not only by being around these ferocious cats but because people are still hunting them and yet as they put their lives in danger they take care of these big cats and usually create a special bond with them appears...

I find hippos adorable and people often ask me, "Jay, why do you find hippos so adorable when they could rip your face off?" All fun aside, there's a good book about the use of tigers in Chinese medicine called "Tiger Bone & Rhino Horn" and the IUCN and WWF operate a program called TRAFFIC which monitors illegal trades in the animals. traffic.org. Both would be good sources for improving this article's coverage of those topics, imo. --JayHenry (talk) 04:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Tiger (6 votes) is the collaboration for April-May 2008

Nominated 2008-02-01;

Support:

1. .Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
2. --JayHenry (t) 06:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
3. --Altaileopard. Looks good. Some more citations in the text would be nice... and I will expand the range a little more.
4. -- Bobisbob (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
5. -- Anaxial (talk) 07:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
6. -- Shyamal (talk) 11:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments:

• Like lion was last year, large and a bit of a mess. A few have poked into it a bit but would really need a concerted push and a collaboration would facilitate this. Also instrumental in making a Big Cats Featured Topic. A con is we have a number of cat articles so it may be good to do something really different....cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Visibility/importance. This article gets viewed over 200,000 times a month! --JayHenry (t) 06:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Looks good to me. Bobisbob (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
• Time for another high profile animal - and they don't come much higher than this. Anaxial (talk) 07:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Just in case it's useful, my sister is a tiger expert at ZSL. I'd be happy to contact her to try to get pointers to sources needed, if that would be helpful. Mike Christie (talk) 22:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

---

I agree with you. I love tigers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apollo81001 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

How long can they live?

I wanted to know how long tigers can live but it is not written in the article. Is their average life span comparable to the average life span of lions? --Tubesship (talk) 07:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Tigers and lions have similar life spans, but cosidering the "royal" fight some male lions have for power, they only live up to ten years in the wild, while tigers tend to live slightly longer. In captivity, both lions and tigers live up to 25 years, but most tipically bettween 18-22.

The record for a tiger living in captivity is 26 years. Lions can live up to 35 years. 20 is extremely old for a tiger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 17:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Max. weight recorded

It says, "The heaviest wild Siberian tiger on record weighed in at 384 kg..." but according to the Record's World Book, the largest male of this sub-species surpassed the 1,000-pound mark, which was almost 20 years old and held in captivity. Should we check this and maybe have some cleanup or additional info? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.93.76 (talk) 04:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The wording could be improved but I suspect there is no need to remove the 384 kg thing. While unclear, it appears to be referring to a tiger in the wild. Animals in the wild are generally smaller and don't live as long, and their characteristics in the wild are usually of greatest interest when it comes to studying of them. Of course there's nothing wrong with also mentioning a record in captivity Nil Einne (talk) 18:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You know, once I went the Bronx Zoo in the Bronx section of New York City and I watched how the zoo keepers were taking care of a couple of Siberian tigers. The zoo keepers stated that the 9-year-old male was 420 pounds (now, at age of 12, he's 460). I asked why that tiger was so light compared to other amur tigers. She said that captive tigers aren't being fed to the max. because they want them to have a trim figure, so I guess we won't be seeing a lot of 700-lb Siberians until people start paying a lot of money for that, as they did before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.82.81 (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The Tiger's name in Arabic

I suggest that this paragraph should be deleted : "Nimer" (tiger) is a common Arabic male first name,[85] fulfilling a similar function (i.e. calling a man by the name of a strong and powerful animal) as "lion" names such as Leon, Leo or Leonard in various European languagues.

since "Nimer" is not the arabic name for tiger, thats a common mistake most people make, the name Nimer means Leopard in arabic, the true arabic name for tiger is actually "Babr", thats the same as the persian name. Nimer comes from an arabic adjective "Anmar" or "Nimar" which means spotted, which in turn refers to the leopard ( check the arabian leopard sceintefic name ). The arab first knew the tigers from north iraq and from their trades with india, they couldn't have possibly called it nimer since the name doesn't describe it as it is.. I just wanted to make this point clear, thanks. MoeFe (talk) 20:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Featured Article ?

I am a tiger fan and I really like these animals a lot. So, my goal is to make this article a featured article, but I'd need some help to identify the weaker parts of this article, what should be done to feature it.--71.190.82.81 (talk) 21:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Please, use Peer review. Thanks ;) --MakE ^shout! 23:46, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Removed media

I was checking out some older versions of this article, and i have to say that great things are done here. Before it sounded so bad, really! Today, it flows so well. However, I noticed some videos at the end of the old article, which can also be used here.--96.232.61.201 (talk) 01:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Physical Characteristics

I deleted all of the descriptions from the subspecies list, and then put a table in the physical characteristics section, with the lengths, weights and descriptions of each of the subspecies.

Also, I took the weights and lengths from "Tiger Territory", www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger. I don't like using a single source (particularly from the internet) but I thought this was best for consistency, and the site is a pretty good resource. I've referenced the website.

So...what do you think of the changes? I'm not very experienced with using tables on wikipedia, so please clean it up if you think it looks too messy. Alphard08 (talk) 08:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if I like the table format. It is good that the information about physical characteristics is now in the correct section, but the table format is probably not the best solution to present it. I strongly disagree with the use of the website in favor of written books about the length and weight of some of the species, except you can explain why the author of Tiger Territory is of equal reliability as the authors of the books. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 08:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I've taken into account what you've said, and got rid of the table format. I have to admit, I think it looked a little...unaesthetic, too, as a table! As for using a website, I agree that generally written scientific texts make better resources than sites. Unfortunately, I haven't got access to a book that contains weight ranges and lengths for each of the tiger subspecies, and from what I've seen, Tiger Territory does seem to be better than most other websites - it's certainly very comprehensive. I think someone who has a scientific textbook with information on each of the subspecies should definitely verify the weights and lengths though, to make certain that they're correct. Alphard08 (talk) 12:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

changes in big cats most people failed to notice

this is true facts.as cubs of most big cats grow older, the colour of their eyes changes from blue to yellow. i've been searching on wikipedia, but only to found this fact is true after doing some own research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.93.152.21 (talk) 16:26, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

It generally takes about three months or so for the eyes of lion and tiger cubs to turn amber. However, quite a lot of animals have blue eyes at birth - the same goes for humans, too, I think - so this fact isn't specific to big cats. Alphard08 (talk) 09:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Cross Eyed White Tigers

White tigers do not have crossed eyes because of inbreeding. In 40 years I have never heard of a single case of a white tiger having a cleft palate, have you? Golden tabby tigers carry the white gene. They are usually born in litters which have white tiger cubs. If inbreeding caused white tigers to have crossed eyes orange tigers born in the same litters as white tigers would also have crossed eyes. White tigers have been reported from the wild in the Siberian tiger subspecies as well as the Bengal, according to Richard Perry writing in "The World Of The Tiger." He said that white tigers were found in northern China and Korea. White tigers are also part of the folklore in Java and Sumatra so they must have existed there as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.5 (talk) 14:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC) PS Richard Perry's book is one of the sources for the Tiger wikipedia article.

Cross eyed white tigers occur only in captivity, and are generally all descended from a specimen kept in a harem two centuries ago. White cubs can occur in normal, wild litters, its just that the zoo specimens all descend from very limited captive bred stock.Dark hyena (talk) 15:58, 4 October 2008 (UTC) Actually being descended from a small captive stock has nothing to do with it. If it did orange siblings of white tigers would also be cross eyed. The crossed eyes are directly linked to the white gene. White tigers have a visual pathway abnormality. This causes some to be cross eyed. Read the white tiger wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 16:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"In 40 years I have never heard of a single case of a white tiger having a cleft palate, have you?"

I certainly have. See this: http://www.bigcatrescue.org/cats/wild/white_tigers_fraud.htm Alphard08 (talk) 02:19, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. You're right about the crossed eyes being unrelated to inbreeding though (I think the error in the article was my fault - I've just corrected it, at any rate. Thanks for pointing that out). Alphard08 (talk) 04:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I do not consider the bigcatrescue website credible. Do you have any other source for a white tiger having a cleft palate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 15:23, 6 October 2008 (UTC) The bigcatrescue website does'nt seem very accurate. If that's your only source I must conclude there is no record a white tiger having a cleft palate. That website is the worst.

Well, there were photographs of a white tiger with a cleft palate in that website...(To be clearer, there were two tigers with facial deformities: one with a hairlip and cleft palate, and the other with a brachycephalic face.)

Anyway, here are other sources that mention a cleft palate as a possible consequence of inbreeding in tigers. For instance:

http://www.indiantiger.org/tigers-around-the-globe/indo-chinese-tiger.html

If you want a more scientific resource, however, there is a book called "Tigers of the World" by Ronald Lewis Tilson (a Google search will find it, and you'll be able to peruse certain pages of it). On page 196, the following may be found:

"Congenital problems have been reported, and in some instances, may be related to inbreeding. Thymic hypoplasia and lymphopenia which has caused immunodeficiency and the death of one cub (DeMartini 1974), possibly due to inbreeding, is reported in Siberian tigers. Two cardiac defects have been seen in white tiger cubs, a patent ductus asterosis and atrial septal defect (Houck pers. comm.). A survey of congenital defects reported the following defects in tigers: cleft palate, diaphragmatic hernia and umbilical hernia (DeMartini 1974, Leipold 1980). The presence of congenital cataracts has been mentioned previously. White tigers have been investigated for the Chediak-Higashi syndrome, but certain criteria could not be fulfilled to draw a correlation (Anon. 1978)."

White tigers tend to be extremely inbred, so it is highly likely that some are born with cleft palates, since it has been linked to inbreeding in tigers. Alphard08 (talk) 06:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this. I will go back and look. I do not recall anything in Tigers Of The World about a white tiger having a cleft palate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 15:23, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

I was just looking at the bigcatrescue website and it says that 80% of white tigers are stillborn ! This is absolute rubbish. This is why I don't consider them credible. I have also never heard of any other white tiger having a deformed face and there are around 600 white tigers in captivity now. There is nothing typical about a white tiger having a deformed face. The bigcatrescue website also says that white tigers have an 80% infant mortality so I wonder which is it-80% stillborn or an 80% infant mortality. Either way it's untrue.

Bigcatrescue does appear to have a tendency to exaggerate, so I don't doubt that the 80% mortality rate is a myth. However, I still posted the link simply because there were photographs of a white tiger with a cleft palate (and another with facial deformities), demonstrating that such cases do in fact occur, in response to your statement that in 40 years you have never heard of a single case of this happening.

The other website you mentioned only refers to cleft palates in "Corbett's tiger", not in a white tiger.

I know, but as I said, it made the point that inbreeding can result in deformities such as cleft palates in tigers, just as "Tigers of the World" did. Ergo, white tigers, as the most inbred of tigers, are the most likely to be born with such features. That's the point I was trying to make. Alphard08 (talk) 09:43, 8 October 2008 (UT

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC) I know we've spent enough time on this, and you've been kind enough to indulge me, but I had a look at the wikipedia article on cleft palates and it says that cleft palates occur in one in 600 births. By coincidence there are estimated to be 600 white tigers alive in the world. That would mean that if there is one white tiger with a cleft palate (and I'm not convinced there is one) that's exactly what should be expected if it has nothing to do with inbreeding, just like the crossed eyes have nothing to do with inbreeding. I don't think that white tigers are any more inbred than purebred dogs, but since they do tend to be inbred there should be a lot more white tigers with cleft palates if that was caused by inbreeding. At one time the Sumatran tigers in North American zoos were more inbred than white tigers. They were all descended from a single pair-I think at the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo. The Amur tigers in zoos are also inbred and I suspect that the wild Amur tigers are also inbred.

That is a good point. First of all, I think that the figure of 1 in 600/800 births was meant to apply to humans, and I don't actually know if the same can be said of tigers. Secondly, that 1 in 600 births figure applies to a general population, which includes both inbred and other births. White tigers, however, consist of a far greater proportion of inbred individuals than a natural population, so one could expect the figure to be substantially higher. At any rate, I'm not sure that the 1 in 600 figure can be applied accurately here.

I also wonder whether that white tiger with the deformed face (Kenny) may not have that deformity because of poor nutrition or a severe injury rather than inbreeding. Since white tigers are inbred why would'nt there be more white tigers with deformed faces? Why just one out of 600? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 17:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It has indeed been speculated that poor diet could result in the tiger being born with a brachycephalic face. The wikipedia article on cephalic disorders mentions that both genetic conditions and nutritional deficiencies can give rise to this deformity. However, I personally believe that the former is more likely, considering the amount of other physical defects that white tigers may have (scoliosis, shortened tendons, abnormal kidneys, more likely to die from cancer, etc...) The messybeast page does consider the possibility of overfeeding potentially causing the "bulldog", albeit very briefly, but still lists brachycephaly as a genetic anomaly in white tigers. Alphard08 (talk) 08:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but all of the other physical defects you list are well documented. There is no record of any white tiger ever having a cleft palate with the possible exception of Kenny. I think if white tigers had cleft palates Tigers Of The World would have mentioned it. Tiger Of The World does mention a single case of a white tiger having central retinal degeneration. It was a male white tiger in the Milwaukee County Zoo. There's no mention of white tigers having cleft palaltes from any credible source. The figure I gave for white tigers-600-is the estimate of how many are alive today. You could add to that all of the white tigers which have ever been born in captivity and it would be hundreds more, and there's still no record of even one having a cleft palate, again with the possible exception of Kenny, who does'nt live at Big Cat Rescue. Big Cat Rescue's own white tiger is normal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 15:32, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I've already told you why 1 in 600 can not be a reliable estimate of the proportion of white tigers with cleft palates. To be honest though, I'm getting rather tired of this argument. If you want to dismiss every single link that I post, you can always do a thorough search in a library yourself and see if you can find a list of the physical defects of every single white tiger born in captivity over the last 50 years, or even contact a tiger expert. Alphard08 (talk) 08:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I know you've already told me why 1 in 600 cannot be a reliable estimate, and to be honest I did'nt realize we were having an argument. I thought this was a friendly discussion. My mistake. I have looked at lists of every physical defect of every single white tiger ever born in captivity over the past fifty years. I had already done this long before you made your suggestion. I am sure you can guess that cleft palates are not on any list. That was kind of my point from the very beginning. It has never been my intention to engage in an argument with you. If I had known this was an argument, as opposed to a friendly conversation, I would never have answered, because it would'nt be worth my time. Believe me I have no interest in having an argument either, with you or anybody else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.5 (talk) 14:18, 11 October 2008 (UTC) PS I have been in contact with many tiger experts, although not recently.

I'm sorry, I just meant "argument" as in the sense of "debate", rather than a heated discussion.

But, if you have looked at lists of every physical defect of white tigers, how come you didn't previously know about the brachyphaly exhibited by Kenny and several other white tigers in the United States? I mean, you said "with the possible exception of Kenny", implying that you're not exactly sure whether or not he does in fact have a cleft palate, and you also wondered if the bulldog feature may have been caused by a physical injury, when in fact it was a congenital defect, present at birth. Not to mention the cleft palate and missing upper lip that Zabu of BigCatRescue has - I know that the site is prone to exaggerate, but I'm not so sure that they would lie about a detail like that which is easy for any vet to check (and there were vets working on her when she was desexed, since she shares an enclosure with a male lion and they didn't want any ligers being produced), or indeed, any visitor to the centre that meets Zabu... Alphard08 (talk) 22:21, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to begin here. I have never heard of brachyphaly in a white tiger before. (I've never heard of brachyphaly before.) If that refers to the "bull dog" face I have read about that on the white tiger wikipedia article and on Sarah Hartwell's messy beast website. I don't recall if that expression was used, but brachyphaly does'nt appear on the lists I've seen either. I am admitting of course that I don't know whether Kenny has a cleft palate. I was entertaining the possibility that he might and that he may be the only white tiger on record with a cleft palate. I did'nt know that Zabu was missing her upper lip and had a cleft palate. I have'nt read everything on their website. By the bull dog face you are refering to Kenny's deformity, but how do we know it was present from birth and was'nt caused by an accident? Kenny was given to another sanctuary by a private breeder. They would only know what the private breeder chose to tell them. You may well be right about Kenny. It's also possible that that private breeder has white tigers which are far more inbred than most. I just know there have been hundreds of inbred white tigers without deformed faces or missing upper lips. I think the bigcatrescue website describes Kenny as "typical", when he is anything but. There's also a Dr. Laughlin associated with Big Cat Rescue. He spent a year in prison and six months in a halfway house for stealing five white tiger cubs from the Hawthorn Circus. There are so many ridiculous assertions on that website. I think it says that all white tigers are cross eyed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 17:37, 14 October 2008 (UTC) By the way I think you mentioned white tigers having kidney problems. Kidney problems are endemic to big cats in general and not to white tigers in particular. And I think that selective breeding has virtually iliminated crossed eyes in white tigers and Siamese cats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 17:51, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Kenny's face certainly exhibits brachycephalic features - and brachycephaly is congenital, present at birth. Personally, I think it's very unlikely that Kenny's face has been deformed due to injury. I agree with you though that a lot of the stuff that bigcatrescue says is pretty exaggerated (I didn't know that Dr. Laughlin had been jailed, either)

The cross-eyed trait isn't as common in Siamese cats as it once was, but it does still occur occasionally (I think my friend's Siamese cat is a bit cross-eyed!). And the cross-eyed characteristic hasn't been eliminated in white tigers either - I've seen photos of white tigers with crossed eyes - although you're right in that not all white tigers have the trait. From what I've heard, I do think that white tigers are more at risk of kidney failure than most other big cats, even if it does happen often amongst the big cat family.

On the topic, I remember visiting a white tiger named Chester in Sydney's Taronga zoo. A few years later, when I visited a second time, I was very sad to learn that he had passed away. He apparently had kidney problems. Alphard08 (talk) 10:14, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the messages. I know there are still cross eyed white tigers. There's one in a zoo in Hawaii. I mean't it has been eliminated in some bloodlines. It depends on who's doing the breeding. Kidney problems are common in big cats. How old was Chester when he died? I'll bet he was a ripe old age. Did you know that he fathered the first test tube tiger? That was in the United States before he became the first white tiger in Australia. He came from the Henry Doorly Zoo in Omaha. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 14:25, 18 October 2008 (UTC) PS Somewhere I read that a majority of the Siamese cat "founders" were cross eyed, so the situation has been improved. There are several breeds derived from the Siamese which, as far as I know, are never cross eyed, like the Himalayan and rag doll etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 14:31, 18 October 2008 (UTC) I could'nt find anything about Chester dying on the internet, but his brother lived to be 18 at the Washington DC Zoo, which is a really good age for a male, and had no kidney problems. http://www.nbc4.com/news/1700325/detail.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 15:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC) They called him Taj, but his real name was Panghur Ban. I had a conversation with John Cuneo, the owner of the Hawthorn Circus, a while back and he told me that they have very few cross eyed white tigers, and that these are amongst the oldest they have. They have bred this trait out of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 17:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Chester died several years ago. He did indeed live a long time (17 years), but had ongoing kidney problems, and a spinal disorder too, apparently, and had to be euthanised eventually. He was a very beautiful tiger - I did a commemorative oil painting based on him after the second time I visited Taronga and learned he had died, that still hangs on my wall today. Alphard08 (talk) 10:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Tiger Vs Lion

Lion tamer Clyde Beatty said that whenever there was a fight between a tiger and a lion the lion always won. That's from his book "Facing The Big Cats".

Golden Tabby Tigers

Golden tabby tigers all carry the white gene. They are intermediate between white and orange. They probably result from the combination of the orange gene with the stripeless white gene.

The wide band gene that golden tabby tigers and white stripeless tigers have is separate from the white (chinchilla) gene that white striped tigers have. Do you reckon it would be clearer if I put this extra detail into the article? I didn't want to delve too deeply into the distinction when I first included the description of the Golden Tabby tiger in this article, instead leaving that to the article that focusses exclusively on this colour morph, but perhaps I should have... Alphard08 (talk) 10:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that what you're saying is correct, or that any other gene is involved here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 15:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The wide band gene and chinchilla gene are indeed distinct from each other. Here's a website that details the genetics of the golden tabby and stripeless white tiger: http://www.messybeast.com/genetics/tigers-golden.htm. This website goes into more detail: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/White-tiger#Genetics_.26_albinism.

Both colour morphs have the "wide band" gene (two copies, in fact, since it is recessive), but the stripeless white tiger also has the (double) white chinchilla gene, whereas the golden tabby does not. Alphard08 (talk) 07:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The second one is identical to the white tiger wikipedia article. I mean the nationmaster one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 15:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

It certainly is, but all the same, I could have just replaced that weblink with a link to the white tiger page and still made a valid point, because some good references are used in the white tiger Wikipedia article itself. For instance, "Robinson et al, Roy (1999). Genetics for Cat Breeders and Veterinarians. Butterworth-Heinemann. ISBN 978-0750640695" is the source used to describe the effects of the wide band gene and chinchilla gene. And the "messybeast" website is a separate site altogether. Both pages indicate that the wide band gene is responsible for the golden tabby, whereas the chinchilla produces the white tiger, and the combination of them both produces the stripeless white tiger. Alphard08 (talk) 08:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Down here I was'nt dismissing your sources. I was just making the observation that the second one was the same as the wikipedia. I just thought that was interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 17:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Bornean Tiger

Why is there no section on the Bornean tiger? i.e. Meijing, Erick. The Bornean tiger, speculation on its existence. Cat News 1999 Spring:-30:12-15 ISSN: 1027-2992 Descriptors: tigers, Panthera tigris, possible native species in Borneo, introduction at some point, discussion of reports, validity of sightings, Borneo. There used to be a lot of information on this topic on the 5 Tigers website. They had photographs of tiger skins from Borneo.

This is pretty interesting: http://www.wildasia.net/main.cfm?page=article&articleID=89. According to this site, tigers did exist in Borneo until about 200 years ago, although it is unclear how they became extinct. The wikipedia article does mention the fact that tigers used to exist in Borneo, but only very briefly ("fossil remains"). I don't have access to the source you've mentioned, unfortunately. Alphard08 (talk) 10:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems that the 5 Tigers website no longer has information about the Bornean tiger unless I'm looking in the wrong place. The Time Life Nature book on Asia says something about the Bornean tiger and a fossil tooth. What is the scientific name of the Bornean tiger? If it went extinct that recently it should be mentioned with the other subspecies. Peter Matthiessen, writing in "Tigers in the Snow", said that tigers may have disappeared from Borneo, despite it's being good tiger habitat, because of the absence of deer. He said that deer were only recently introduced to the island. Of course he means after the tiger disappeared. If people are seeing tigers on Borneo today maybe they are swimming from Sumatra. He did'nt say that last thing I was just speculating. I believe that there are also fossil tigers from Sakhalin Island, Japan, and Beringia. That's probably in Tigers Of The World. There are also supposed to be fossil tigers from Java which are very large, from tigers which were not ancestral to the modern Javan tiger. I can't remember where I read that. On the subject of the Javan tiger I believe there was at least one in the Budapest Zoo in the 1970s, but it may have turned out to be a Sumatran tiger. It's possible that tigers lived in North America and that some tiger fossils have been mistaken for lion fossils. There are some amazing old black and white photographs of Javan tigers in the Berlin Zoo in Tigers In The Snow. I tried to find you a copy of the article online by putting IUCN Cat News into the search engines, but apparently you have to be a member: http://www.catsg.org/catnews/index.htm

Copyright?

I've made a few changes to the tiger article recently. One of them, however, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do - in "territorial behaviour", I've quoted a paragraph from one of my sources (and referenced it accordingly). Is this actually allowed? If not, I'll delete it immediately. Alphard08 (talk) 12:21, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I generally try to avoid direct quotes unless they have an intrinsic meaning or value which would be lost by paraphrasing or interpreting. There is no poetry in the passage, but it is concise and information-dense, so rewriting may be a little tricky. It is properly attributed though. I may ask others more au fait with copyright to have a look. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

African tiger

This is from Louis S.B. Leakey, writing in "Animals Of East Africa" in 1969: "In 1957 we found the largest fossil jaw of a felid yet recorded from the gorge, and its shape is more like a present day tiger's than the lion's." "The jaw of a tiger rests with a three point contact on a table, while the jaw of a lion has the lower margin curved like the rockers of a rocking chair so that if you put it on a flat surface you can tilt it back and forth easily. Our fossil mandible from upper Bed II stays as steady as a tiger's on our laboratory table. This does not mean however that the big cat of Olduvai was striped like a modern tiger. It may have been, but naturally we cannot be sure." pgs. 162-163 (I think this may have turned out to be a saber tooth tiger.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.195.4 (talk) 14:39, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Bali tiger

There's a book in the references to the white tiger wikipedia titled "Der Tiger" by Mazak. There's something else by him included in the references to this article. Vratislav Mazak was or is a Czech taxonomist, who asserted the status of the Bali tiger as a distinct subspecies. He discovered cranial variiations like a narrower occipital plane, which in theory distinguish the Bali tiger from the Javan subspecies. I don't know if this would be worth mentioning in the article. The Indo-Chinese tiger was not recognized until 1968, which means that up to that point Indo-Chinese tigers were regarded as Bengal tigers.

Japanese tiger

I found where I read the stuff about the fossil tiger from Java. It is in Tigers in the Snow by Peter Matthiessen. He said that the Japanese tiger was the same size as other island tigers. It was extinct already when people arrived in Japan. Fossil tigers from Java were as large or larger than any modern race (like most fossil tigers) and it is generally believed was not the ancestor of the modern Javan tiger. There are also fossil tigers from Lyakhov Island off the northern coast of Siberia. During the ebb and flow of the glaciers the tiger reached Sakhalin Island, Japan, and Borneo (where the Bisaya tribe still prize its few teeth, claiming their ancestors hunted them as recently as two or three centuries ago.)He also says that the tiger may have reached Alaska, but there is no fossil evidence of this. He said that there is no record of there ever having been a Bali tiger in captivity. There were Javan tigers in zoos until the end of WWII. After that it became easier to acquire Sumatran tigers for zoos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.1.206.150 (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC) I've read that in places where tigers are'nt bothered by people they are diurnal and start living in prides like lions. There was an article in the Journal Of The Bombay Natural History Society about a tiger and a leopard, which were friends, and used to share kills.

You've done quite a bit of research - do you have an account that you can use to edit the tiger article? I think it's worth trying to elevate it to FA status (currently it's rated "B"). Alphard08 (talk) 10:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I have an account, but I'm nervous using it in a library because I'm afraid I'll forget to log out and I thought this article was locked out.