Talk:First Crusade

Watch the anti-islam slant

It would be good to include some detail to avoid unintentional religious slander. Specifically, protection of Christians under Islamic rule was an explicit teaching of Muhammad and the status quo of islam since its earliest expansion, not a secular relaxing of Islamic values.

"But beginning in the early eleventh century, Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah began to persecute the Christians of Palestine. In 1009, he destroyed Christianity's holiest shrine the Holy Sepulcher. He eventually relented and instead of burning and killing, he implemented a toll tax for Christian pilgrims entering Jerusalem. The worst was yet to come. A group of Turkish Muslims, the Seljuks, very powerful, very aggressive and very stringent followers of Islam, began their rise to power."

The Seljuks could not be said to be 'stringent' followers of Islam: stringent followers of Islam must respect 'people of the book', i.e. Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, and Sabians. The manner in which they are to be respected is also spelled out fairly clearly in the Qur'an. One might call the Seljuks radicals, or militants, or possibly fundamentalists, but not stringent followers. I admit this is a small detail, but in it is the proverbial 'devil' of anti-Islam. A further point: the reasons for the Muslim crackdown on Christian pilgrims is a delicate matter, as an overstatement of malice or ommission of grievance could again produce a biased, inaccurate account. Please reference these details so we can evaluate your sources and get this right. 130.195.86.37 (talk) 02:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)Aidan MacLeod

Watch your own bias. All of the points you contest are well known points. The Turks attacked Byzantium and thus triggered the call for the Crusades. The Turks have always been very powerful and their conquest of the region points to them being aggressive too. That is not to say that the Crusades were correct, or not aggressive. On the contrary, aggression was met with aggression; religious intolerance was met with religious intolerance - although in the Crusader states, Muslims were tolerated - hence at the Siege of Jerusalem in 1187, Saladin was concerned for the safety of the Muslims, and Balian of Ibelin had a small amount of negotiating power when he negotiated its surrender.Gabr-el 23:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

There were 600 000 crusaders in this crusade but they didn't have an army organization.Turks defeat them all.You didn't write 600 000 crusaders and the gerilla war between turks and crusaders.Crusaders went to Jarusalem but with 50 000 men in 3.Crusade.Turks killed all crusaders at the Anatolia.You should write it i think. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.86.125 (talk) 17:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The Persecution of Jews: While it was true indeed that the crusaders (and most of the european people of the time)terribly persecuted jews ,it is important to say that it was not the official first crusade(the princes crusade) that promoted the first holocaust ,but the crusade of the people.I think that detail is important and must be said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.13.38.152 (talk) 07:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

FA review

Gwinva and Wandalstouring have asked me to add references to make this article fully verifiable. While I don't think that will be possible by the deadline given by the FA people (October 20), it should be quite easy to reference everything with the most up-to-date academic research. The problem is that the literature on the First Crusade is extremely vast; almost everything can probably be found in Thomas Asbridge's "The First Crusade: A New History", but there are dozens of other books and articles that we could also use.

Some other problems: how much of this article should focus on the origins of the crusades? The origins of the crusades in general and the First Crusade in particular are obviously very closely linked; the crusade article should go into more detail (although that article is probably beyond salvaging) but some detail is necessary here as well. Also, the influence of Steven Runciman might remain a problem. He was once a great historian and author, and his history of the crusades is still the basis for basically all popular knowledge of the period, but it's very outdated. I know various editors will add info from Runciman or other popular histories based on him, but I think we should try to avoid this. If Runciman has an especially noteworthy opinion on something that differs from current scholarship, I suppose it would be worth mentioning, but otherwise, I hope we can stick to more recent works.

If I ever do get around to this, I think I'll use Asbridge as the basic guide, and probably Jonathan Riley-Smith for stuff about the origins, and branch out from there. Any help and suggestions are welcome, of course. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Map of the path taken of the First Crusade

I have fixed the "problem" of copyright. I am quite sure that BigDaddy had placed the Copyright notice there on by accident and has many times kindly allowed me to edit his maps. Consider the issue resolved. Gabr-el 03:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Infobox / Territorial changes

"Anatolia and Levant captured for Christendom" This is a bit exaggerated. Not 'all' Anatolia or Levant was captured by the crusaders. Lysandros (talk) 09:36, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Review of the opening statement

We have to put historiography on its place.

"The First Crusade was launched in 1095 by Pope Urban II with the dual goals of reconquering the sacred city of Jerusalem and the Holy Land and freeing the Eastern Christians from Islamic rule." Pope Urban II never launched any First Crusade. All accounts mentioned that on Council of Clermont Urban II called for armed pilgrims that hundreds of years laters called First Crusade by historian. The armed pilgrims took cross and sworn to go to the Church of Holy Sepulchure.

The so called "dual goal" never existed in the history, perhaps it is a part of some historical analysis.

"What started as an appeal by Byzantine Emperor Alexius I Comnenus for western mercenaries to fight the Seljuk Turks in Anatolia quickly turned into a wholescale Western migration and conquest of territory outside of Europe." Alexius applied for assistant from Roman Catholic Church on Council of Piacenza. Request for western mercenaries, if any, has no relation with the First Crusade. Most of 40.000 armed pilgrims returned to Europe after Battle of Ascalon. Western mass migration was an aftermath of the First Crusade, if such thing happened (Godfrey mobilize local Arab Christian, Baldwin stick with Edesa population, Behemund occupy Antioch with local Syrian & Armenian). Reopening international trade also an aftermath of the First Crusade. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mudy s (talk • contribs) 07:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion for opening lines we put all known facts only, for example:

---

First Crusade was series of events trigerred by religious endorsement of armed pilgrimage from entire Christendom to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Pope Urban II at Council of Clermont, on August 15, 1096. The endorsement was made as respose to the request of Christendom military coalition against Moslem teritorial advances from Alexius Comnenus, Emperor of Byzantine, at Council of Piacenza. There were several armed group of pilgrims on the First Crusade, without single army chain of command. First armed group entering Asia Minor known as People's_Crusade destroyed by Kilij Arslan I (Sultan of Rum) near Nicaea. Main armed group consist of army of Bohemund I (Prince of Taranto) with his nephew Tancred, Godfrey of Bouillon (Duke of Lower Lorraine) with his brother Baldwin, Hugh I (Count of Vermandois), and Robert Curthose (Duke of Normandy), Raymond IV (Count of Tolouse), and Robert II (Count of Flanders). There were fleet support from Guglielmo Embriaco of Genoa, Edgar Atheling of England, also support from local Armenian and Syrian. At early phase they're accompanied by Adhemar of Le Puy as Pope representative and Taticius of Byzantine.

After took Nicaea, capital of Seljuk Sultanate of Rum and defeated Kilij Arslan I on Battle of Dorylaeum, the pilgrim army capture Antioch by defeating army of Duqaq of Damascus at First Battle of Harenc, army of Ridwan of Aleppo at Second Battle of Harenc, and later large army of Seljuk Turk led by Kerbogha of Mosul at Battle of Orontes. The pilgrim army then capture Jerusalem and defeat main Fatimid army under Al-Afdal in outskirt of Ascalon on August 12, 1099. Godfrey assume title of Advocate of the Holy Sepulchre, Bohemund became Prince of Antioch, Baldwin inherit County of Edessa and later on became the first King of Jerusalem.

---

With this definition (Pope Urban II Crusade) I put Crusader 1101 as aftermath of First Crusade, on other topic, since it was endorsed by different Pope (Pope Paschal II), with different goals. Also I suggest additional page on Siege of Antioch event: First Battle of Harenc (Crusaders vs Duqaq) and Second Battle of Harenc (Crusaders vs Ridwan) also Battle of Orontes (Crusaders against Keborgha). So that those battles can be refered to from First Crusade, Siege of Antioch, and other pages.

I might be able to help if anyone can tell me how the rewriting progress.

mmmm (talk) 05:34, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Review on the Background

The origins of the crusades in general, and of the First Crusade in particular, are varied and are widely debated among historians. They are most commonly linked to the political and social history of eleventh-century Europe, the rise of a reform movement within the Papacy, and the political and religious situation of Christianity and Islam in Europe and the Middle East.

No debate on the origin of the First Crusade. The debate exist regarding implicit personal and institutional reason of the First Crusade, which has no way to confirm, and therefore should be left on historiography.

Christianity, which had spread throughout Europe, Africa, and the Middle East in the early Middle Ages, was by the early eighth century limited to Europe and Asia Minor after the rapid spread of Islam.

Christianity appear also outside Europe and Asia Minor. There are Christian among Mongols, Indian’s. Strong Christian population still exist in Anatolia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and North Africa. There are involvement of local Christian at various events through out the First Crusade.

Reconguista stuff I thing reconguista stuff should be moved to general Crusade topic, not for the First Crusade. Following paragraph should be enough: Shortly before the First Crusade, Pope Urban II had encouraged Spanish Christians to reconquer Tarragona, near Barcelona, using much of the same symbolism and rhetoric that was later used to preach the crusade. --mmmm (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

To respond to both reviews, these are very good points - my only objection is that it would be awkward to rephrase the opening line. Of course Urban did not intend to "launch the First Crusade" but that is, after all, what actually happened. We'll try to deal with the rest of your comments - as you can tell, the article is currently being rewritten. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I have five organisational suggestions (spawned by my discussion with Adam and Mudy s's comments here):

1. Remove "Background" and "Historiography" sections to the general Crusades article, where the background should be covered in great detail. A Historiography of the Crusades article may be justifiable on its own, if there is anybody with the time to write it.
2. Add a "Historiography" section towards the bottom of this article, covering the primary sources (and their respective value, point of view, etc.) first and then the secondary sources insofar as the bear directly on the First Crusade. How the conquest of Jerusalem has been viewed (and used) by different generations would be an interesting topic for a subsection.
3. This article should be structured as primarily a narrative, with the non-narrative sections (like historiography) put towards the bottom, after the narrative. The first sections should deal with the subject of what motivated Urban to propose a Crusade, then with the Council of Clermont, then with the recruitment/preaching effort, and finally with the popular movements and the responses of the princes. A lot of this is already in the article. These are the subjects which are appropriately the background to the First Crusade (in my opinion).
4. The main body of the article should concern the narrative of Crusade itself, from when people started marching east until the 'kingdom' was secured (more or less) by Godfrey and/or the Crusade of 1101. This section will be difficult to subdivide, since no information should appear under a heading "Siege of Antioch" that does not have to do directly with the siege of Antioch, etc. This would actually get easier as the narrative gets longer and more detailed.
5. The final part of the article should concern the 'legacy' of the Crusade. This is where the historiography section goes and where an arts and literature section goes. There is no need for an "Aftermath" section. The aftermath is covered at other articles. Well placed links and main article/see also hatnotes will do just fine.
6. Finally, Let's not forget we can always use main article hatnotes, so we should split of information if its appropriate and we should summarise information that is already covered in depth elsewhere.

Despite the length of this post, I actually cooked it up rather quickly. (I'm busy.) Comments? Srnec (talk) 05:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The background should definitely be covered in the main Crusades article, but I think some (perhaps most) of the background is unique to the First Crusade. It happens to have been the first one, so "origins of the crusades" and "origins of the First Crusade" are essentially the same. Later crusades usually did not occur for the same reasons; they were either individual pilgrimages where someone dragged along his whole feudal levy, or responses to specific disasters in the east. (And the causes of the political and anti-heretical crusades in Europe have very different origins.) While this article is ideally one in a series, it is also a stand-alone article. We shouldn't expect a reader to begin with the Crusades article, then come here after having read all the pertinent background information. An article on the historiography of the crusades would be a good idea, although the historiography of just the First Crusade would be long enough for it's own article.

There used to be a historiography section at the bottom (inaccurate and badly written, probably by me), and now the new stuff at the top should probably be moved back there. It makes less sense at the top if a reader doesn't know the basic narrative yet. I was also planning on writing about the primary sources, eventually.

What motivated Urban is one of the major historiographical questions. That's partly why that section has ballooned at the top of the page. Where do we stop? Something like "Urban may have been motivated by x, y, or z; see historiography below for a discussion."?

Anyway, I do agree that the narrative should be the main focus. But what about specific myths/controversies within the narrative? It would break up the flow but obviously we should discuss things like the cannibalism at Maraat, the massacre in Jerusalem, Godfrey's title, etc. Should there be a "myths" section? Adam Bishop (talk) 09:30, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Great. I cant agree more for both suggestion above.

Some thougts:

1. I think Adam's method of "see historiography below for a discussion." is good, and this might also be used for unconfirmed / debated events. Perhaps we should make a different sub title: debated events or historical discussion on several events or diffent accounts on various events: canibalism on First Crussade, massacre in Jerusalem, Godfrey title, spear of destiny from antioch, etc. Events that is mentioned in the primary sources but the fact is debateble or disputed by secondary sources, and events that is mentioned differently in primary sources (including myth and legends). Ofcourse such well known events still have to be mentioned in the main body, with link to the debate below or to a dedicated wiki page. We can consider other wiki pages as part of this document.
2. However debated events (and myth) should be separate from historiography that contains historical analysis of background analysis, concept, aftermath analysis and more abstract components of the First Crusade.
3. We need to realize that Origin of the crusades / background and analysis of First Crusade has several point of view. Perhaps we should accomodate those view, at least: Christian point of view, Moslem point of view, and Current Academical/Popular/Modern point of view. Christian point of view of the First Crusade, for example, is different with other Crusade. Moslem point of view also has their own references which modern historian and Christian historian might not agree with but represent popular view in current moslem comunity worldwide.
4. We need clearer definition on First Crusade to decide whether Crusade of 1101 included in bulk or just mentioned as aftermath. As I mentioned above, I prefer to define First Crusade as Crusade called by Pope Urban II, definition that doesnt fit Crusade 1101 / Crusade called by Pope Pascal II and not aimed at taking Jerusalem.
5. Can we add "List of Battle/armed conflict on First Crusade" without naration, only wiki link, somewhere in the page?
6. Also, where should we mention games and movies related to First Crusade?

Thanks, Moody (talk) 04:32, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict: the following written without Moody's input)

Agree that "origins of the crusades" and "origins of the First Crusade" are essentially the same thing. But where does the information go? I would like (ideally) to avoid duplicating information on two pages. I understand that "later crusades usually did not occur for the same reasons", but I was thinking of the origins of crusading as a concept and a movement. As in, where did any lord get the idea of dragging his feudal levy to the Levant in response to some event X, where X is the "cause" of his Crusade? In this sense, I think the origins of anti-heretical crusading are similarly rooted even if the events which "caused" them are very different. I am less sure how to handle the background now.

Urban's motivations and all the debate they engender can be covered at the top of the article, since I think they form a part of the narrative. When I think of a historiography section, I am not envisaging dealing with specific issues like that, though there is clearly some major overlap. I will have to think some more about this.

If we can write about the historiography of the Crusades in general or any Crusade in particular at article length, then I think an article would be justified.

I also think a myths/common misconceptions section would be justified. I think we could safely relegate all nonfactual information there and keep it out of the narrative. All controversial information, on which historiography has not pronounced a certain verdict (as if it ever does), must, I guess, be a part of the narrative. I don't know how easy it will always be to distinguish "definitely not factual" from "historians are divided".

I realise I'm trying to raise some finer distinctions here (and I'm probably not doing a very good job). My suggestion may be impossible to apply/unworkable. Perhaps we should look to the History of the Crusades series (ed. by Setton) for some ideas about organisation? Srnec (talk) 04:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

To address a separate point, I'm not generally a fan of adding in sections on movies/games/fiction unless it's a "classic". Thus, mentioning Lion in Winter or Henry V in the respective monarchs articles doesn't annoy me, but I would be opposed to mentioning every computer game that mentioned the First Crusade or every book that was set during the First Crusade. Ealdgyth - Talk 05:10, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Map completely wrong

The map "Umayyad Caliphate at its greatest extent." is completely and utterly wrong, the north of portugal (above river douro) and modern day spanish galicia were never under moorish control. It's a pretty crass error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.84.70.133 (talk) 23:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

It's hard to say. They did garrison Gijón on the coast. The mountains (as in the Basque country) were probably never subdued. If they were in control of Galicia it was for a very brief period (probably no more than a few years to a decade). From what I can recall, the wording of the chronicle recording Alfonso I's conquest of Galicia implies that Galicia was a rebellious Christian province (or something like that), not a Moorish territory. But the chronicler may have considered any territory resisting the suzerainty of Alfonso (whom propaganda made "heir" of the Visigoths) to be in rebellion regardless of the exact state of things. So perhaps Galicia was without a ruler before Alfonso re-established Christian authority after the Muslim conquest. Srnec (talk) 04:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Alfonso the grandson of Pelayo_of_Asturias?? That Munuza's seat was at Gijón or León is sufficient to demonstrate that the Arabs had established their rule in the Asturias and that Pelagius was not therefore the leader of a local resistance to Arab conquest.

The map is correct. Only Kingdom of Frank survive Umayyad conquest. Pocket resistance doesnt count as teritorial control in empirium map.

Moody (talk) 05:36, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Attacks on Jews in the Rhineland section

There are some problems with this section.

• The attackers of the jews in the rhineland are often described as "cusaders", although they were not part of the official Crusade, which set off later that year, on 15th August, and were a mixture of local people and unofficial groups, who mostly never reached the Holy Land. It needs to be made clear that these were rogue or unofficial groups.
• The illustration from a bible, claiming to show jews being massacred by "Crusaders", does not clearly show anything of the sort. This seems to be a fanciful attribution with no solid basis. Questions have been raised about the verifiability of this image before (File_talk:FirstCrusade.jpg). In fact it seems to show two crowned kings, (not present in the Rhineland attacks) wearing nothing to indicate that they are crusaders, attacking people (perhaps in Jewish hats) while two people (one with a halo) pray or plead imploringly, There is no original caption to the image, and nothing to indicate that it is not a bible story, or anything else. I am not sure this validates its use here, and certainly the caption should be amended. Xandar 23:00, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

Not badly written, just doesn't belong in a summary style article like this.

According to Ming and Qing dynasty stone monuments, a Jewish community has existed in China since the Han Dynasty, but a majority of scholars cite the early Song Dynasty (roughly a century before the First Crusade). A legend common among the modern-day descendants of the Kaifeng Jews states they reached China after fleeing Bodrum from the invading crusaders. A section of the legend reads, “The Jews became merchants and traders in the region [of the Near East], but new troubles came in the 1090s. Life became difficult and dangerous. The first bad news was heralded by a word they had never heard before: 'Crusade,' the so-called Holy War ... Jews were warned; "Convert to Christianity or die!"

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:First Crusade/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I will be reviewing this article. MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 07:16, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

OK, the review is now basically complete. I can see from the article's history that it was once FA, and most of the article is therefore in good shape. There were some problematic sections, which i've been WP:BOLD with, and reworked/re-written myself, quite extensively in some cases. I've also generally restructured the article, to shift emphasis onto the First Crusade itself (rather than the other events surrounding it). Anyway, I now feel the text is in very good shape, although there are clearly some problem areas. Which are detailed below.

1. There are a number of statements which require citations. These are marked with the or tags. In some cases there are whole paragraphs without citations. These need sourcing.
2. The in-line citations need to be standardised. There is too much detail in many. They should be in the format: "Brown, p. 1." Further detail should only be added when more than one source is used from the same author. Most of the citations are actually OK, but particularly at the start they are excessive. All the extra detail can be placed in the bibliography.
3. The WP:LEAD still needs to be expanded, to four paragraphs (for an article of this size). I suggest 'background', 'preparation', 'main events' and 'aftermath'.
4. A summary style description of the Battle of Ascalon needs to be added (since it was a major event on the crusade).

I think that's more or less it actually. There was a lot more that needed doing, but I figured it would take me just as long to explain what I thought needed doing as it would to just do it myself! MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 14:57, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Summary

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail: - Changed to "nay" - Chrisfow (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Previously FA

Just a note of trivia, but the article when it first became FA had no inline citations. I suppose this is why this article is missing citations. —MC10|Sign here! 20:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that was back before Wikipedia required citations. We were working on it last year, but everyone seems to have given up; I got about halfway through rewriting/citing it, and I haven't gotten back to it yet. I wouldn't list this as GA or FA yet. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:34, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm willing to help you rewrite and cite the article while I have time on my hands. I would at the moment agree, it's not ready to be listed as GA or FA. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This article has been very greatly improved recently and is now very well referenced, though there are still some outstanding tags. It has been on seven day hold now for six weeks, so I think it is time to admit that it is a GA fail and should be resubmitted when you are happy with it. I have no doubt that we will not have to wait too long to see this resubmitted. Chrisfow (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Oooops, I meant to get round to closing the review but...well...somehow it just never happened. Thanks for doing that. MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 06:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Collective memory

The article lacks an account of the collective cultural image that the First Crusade left in the islamic world (comparable in scope only with events like the Thirty Years' War or the Eastern Front (World War II) in Europe). This image still persits as a cultural and rhetorical topos and is of great importance for a proper understanding of the islamic view on western culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.160.84.118 (talk) 20:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Members of the Crusade

hi adam, in the big box, just on top right, boulogne and flandres are parts of the kingdom of france. weren´t they parts of the empire? geoffrey for example stands there as a leader for the empire, his brothers for france. i did not really get that, could you /somebody explain that? 78.50.51.229 (talk) 09:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)