Talk:Jesus

Citation(s) Needed

This article does not reference one multi source historical fact in relation to Jesus. In fact, it doesn't reference 1 source who was alive within 100 years of his life time. As such, in no way should it be presented as fact as the wording currently implies. In addition, a large portion of the citations used to justify the statements here in are opinion pieces, not researched historical papers.

Flavius Josephus

I think Flavius Josephus could be put in a new section for proof of Jesus', that is if anyone thinks if it's a need. User:BennyK95 21:59, October 2 2009 (UTC)

Flavius Josephus is not useful to prove anything about Jesus. St.Trond (talk) 09:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Recent Archive log

Complete archive key

• Talk:Jesus/Archive 97 Removal of spurious representations of Jesus' appearance, trilemma, Mandaean views,scripture removed from historical Jesus section, Vanadalism, Pictures of Jesus, The Truths About Yeshua, Ehrman on harmonies
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 98 Proposal, Possible NPOV Violation in the Geneology Section, first paragraph, at least three years in Jesus' Ministry, this article is too big.
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 99 Literature to be mentioned, Timeline of birth, four gospels, lead; nontrinitarianism, historical Jesus, Jesus as myth, Manichaeism, year of jesus's birth, Edit at top of Jesus page, Colored Yeshua, Image of Jesus which currently exists, Proposal
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 100 Historical Jesus, The To-Do Section, commenting out instead of deleting, 2008 Islamic movie on Jesus, Historical section/Christian views section, Laundry list of non-history scholars and works (alternative proposal), Its latin, isnt it?, this page may display a horizontal scroll bar in some browsers, Proposal on archives, First Section, The historical Jesus
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 101 Edit war over capitalization, Historical Evidence for Jesus' Homosexuality, Carlaude's Majority view, What exactly did Jesus save us from and how?; Carlaude's Majority view part two., Title, PRJS, Dazed and Confused, Why was Jesus baptised?, Dates, Infobox vs. the historical Jesus
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 102 religion founder, Other parameters, He is not God But rather a Demigod, Heavily christian-centric article, Jesus' Birthdate, Jesus in Scientology, Jesus name - Yeshua in Hebrew, means "Salvation" in English
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 103 Writing clean-up, Jesus name in Sanskrit, Reforem Judaism, Jesus and Manichaeism, Bertrand Russell and Friedrich Nietzsche, Recent removal, NPOV, Detail about Buddhist views of Jesus that does not make sense, The Religious perspectives section
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 104 Black Jesus, "Autobiography" of Jesus, Genealogy - Via What Father?, Addition to "Genealogy & Family", Resurrection, according to whom?, Bhavishya Purana, Christian history category, Quick Comment, BC/BCE?, The Truth, Was he any good at his day job?, In Popular Culture, jesus picture, views on Jesus and Muhamma, Occupation, New Dead Sea Discovery- Gabriel's Revelation, Some comments
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 105 Genealogy "reloaded", Place of birth, Which religions?, was jesus ever bar miztvahed?, Bot report : Found duplicate references !, Jesus and the lost tomb, Some believe that Jesus was of middle eastern ethnicity, and not a caucasian, Mispelled cat at the bottom of this talk page, Harmony, Dating system, "Transliteration"
• Talk:Jesus/Archive 106 8 B.C., ref name="HC13", Cause of death, Renewed Discussion Concerning AD/CE debate

Subpage Activity Log

• Discussion on Judaism's views moved to Talk:Jewish views of Jesus/Judaism's views of Jesus.
• Buried vs. entombed," alleged "lack of sources" archived to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro.
• New subpage created, Talk:Jesus/Historical Jesus, with several models of the historical Jesus and a list of sources.
• Baptism, blasphemy and sedition discussions moved to Talk:Jesus/2nd Paragraph Debate.
• Sudden move of Christ: discussion moved to Talk:Christ.
• Disputed tag and "Christian Mythology": moved to [Christian Mythology Talk] for relevancy reasons
• User:Andrew c/Jesus: sorting data b/w New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christian views of Jesus#Life, and Jesus#Life and teachings based on the Gospels.

Appearance and relationship to other religous denominations

I do not understand why Jesus is portrayed as a Caucasian, when it is quite clear that would not be what he looked like, and I am aware that the image comes from the 6th century. Also many aspects of this article are very POV, which I'm pretty sure makes it not an encyclopedia article but a piece of propaganda. Historical evidence is being taken out of books full of metaphor, It's like trying to nextract historical Evidnece from The Lord of The Rings. There is also no mention of the relationship between Jesus and other gods of the time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chesterowens (talk • contribs) 06:06, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

1 That he looks white is simply a result of artistic representation of him. Everyone knows he was most likely olive skinned, and there are even some depictions of him like that in the article. But for the most part, we simply display the popular depictions of him. This issue has been discussed before. I suggest checking through the last couple of pages of archives and looking for previous discussion on the subject. 2 If you think that many aspects of this article are POV, then pick one and specify. Simply calling them POV does not help us, especially since this article has seen tons of edits by tons of editors who overall agree that it is generally neutral. Pick a sentence you see as POV and expound on the issue and a possible solution for it. We'll go over it and once it's fixed, we can move onto the next one. It's slow and tedious, but it's the only way to get things done. 3 It is true that historical evidence is being taken out of books full of metaphor, but the bible is still a historical book. Many people seem to forget that. Historians fully accept it as an authentic historical text and extract some of the events of history from the scriptures. It takes a lot of thinking and studying to figure out exactly what is literal history and what is not, but they do a pretty good job of it. For example - that Jesus existed and was tried for sedition is pretty much obvious history. That he performed miracles is not.

Historians fully accept the bible as an authentic historical text? Many fictional texts contain event references, place names, and the names of important historical figures, but are not considered "historical documents." Jesus existed and was tried for sedition is pretty much obvious history? I can find no definitive statements on this, just arguments. Can you site your references for either statement? Akuvar (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

4 There is no mention of the relationship between Jesus and other gods of the time simply because there exists no relationship between Jesus and other gods of the time. I know the Zeitgeist video and Religulous say otherwise, but it is an unfortunately common mass of misinformation. There are several big similarities between Mithra and Jesus, actually. However, all mention of Mithra before the NT was written tells us nothing about him and the documents about Mithra that do imply similarities were written after the NT was, suggesting that it is Mithra that is a clone of Jesus and not the other way around. Either way, it would be pointless, as this article is about Jesus himself. There are other articles about the supposed similarities between Jesus and other ancient Gods, and that information would belong there instead anyways.Farsight001 (talk) 06:25, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

My main concern would be during the "Constructing a historical view". "Scholars of historical Jesus distinguish their subject from the "Jesus Christ" of Christianity.[7] Other scholars hold that Jesus as presented in the gospels is the real Jesus and that his life and influence only make sense if the gospel stories are accurate." I find this method of referring to "Scholars" without naming examples, even if they are referenced misleading. I mean if the practice of generalising with evidence is unacceptable for a ninth grade level then shouldn't we set a higher standard here.

Speaking of Zeitgeist i found that all over the place, as if it could have been three separate films. By the way sorry about my earlier post it was mostly ramble. Chesterowens (talk) 16:49, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Is someone trying to tell me that Religulous is not the enlightened work of the intellectual elite and that Frodo really did not touch the one ring that binds us all? I am stunned. I know for a fact that Bill Maher is the most intelligent man that ever was and his film is only based upon complete, total truth and fact. In addition, I am almost positive I saw Frodo this past March 17...but I don't recall seeing the ring with my own eyes at that time. :)--^StormRider 17:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

• • According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_Mysteries the mysteries of Mithra started around 1 AD. This seems to be at odds with information on the Jesus page and the Mithra page stating Mithra is "Thousands" of years old. Is there a piece of clear evidence to support this? If not, I think an admin should strike the remark from the two pages and replace it with "about 2000 years old". If Mithra is indeed related to Zoroastrianism, there should be something from the archeological record to support this claim.-Knowl -<(I am questing for Knowledge!) (talk) 16:53, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"House of Unas" gibberish

Just wanted to comment that I am baffled as to how that "House of Unas" wound up in there under my name. The edit I intended to make was in response to an anon IP who challenged the historicity of Jesus. The text that wound up being inserted and that Afaprof1 reverted was some gibberish (as she correctly identified it) that had been originally inserted by another anon IP about 26 days ago. I don't know if it was some error on my part in trying to revert in the deletion of the section by Ohnoitsjamie but, in any event, my "real" edit was lost and that gibberish was inserted instead. Afaprof1 right in reverting it out. I just wanted you declare that the reinsertion of the gibberish wasn't intentional on my part and that I am NOT a kook, at least not intentionally. --Richard (talk) 15:51, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's what all the kooks say! ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:01, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

It is okay Richard and we know that you really don't see little blue men that sing and dance on your bed at night. Just stay calm and we will have some nice men come to assist you. :)--^StormRider 16:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The House of Unas will crush you all HAH HAH HAH!!! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposed mergers

There are many articles on Jesus, as can be seen at Jesus and History. Much of the content overlaps. Would it not be a good idea to merge these sites, with brief and focused fork articles to expand on certain points without repeating all the detail over again? Wdford (talk) 10:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Virtually all of those articles used to be sections of this article i.e. we had one article. That was too long. So we broke it up into these distinct articles. My recollection is one (good faith) editor did the creation of new articles by himself without much discussion. So if you afe saying that this could have been done better, and we now need to reorganize linked articles, merging some, okay, I would love to hear the plan but this time let's discuss it.Slrubenstein | Talk 18:35, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Infobox

Can someone please explain why it is POV to mention Jesus' crucifixion in the infobox? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 22:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

It's POV because of Islamic view of Jesus' death. This article is not about Christian views of Jesus and it's not about Jesus in Islam either. This article is about a man who is important for Christians and Muslims. The latter don't believe that he was crucified; they don't believe he died at all. His death deserves more than one word. Insisting on mentioning Christian belief and ignoring Islamic belief is a POV. Surtsicna (talk) 22:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason why the Christian belief in crucifixion cannot be mentioned in the infobox. It is biased POV only if it is the only belief that is expressed. Including the Islamic belief that Jesus' body did not die, but instead was raised into heaven (please note that Christians also believe that his body was gone from the the sepulcher and had risen into heaven, alive again) bypassing the crucifixion, erases the bias and makes the infobox neutral.

 —  ^{.`</sup>^) Paine Ellsworth<sup>diss`cuss} (^^`.  10:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

"Cause of death" seems like an odd parameter for infobox person in the first place. What other articles include that parameter in the infobox? I'm just curious. LonelyMarble (talk) 11:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Any suggestion of Jesus being raised to heaven or arising from the dead pushes a religious POV (as opposed to atheist). However, the fact that Jesus was crucified is well documented beyond the religious arena so I see no reason to bring the views of any religion into it. It seems a little unnecessary to clutter the infobox with citations when it's well documented in the adjacent article, but I guess we can if necessary. Jminthorne (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Parallels in pre-Christian mythology...

There are many, many, academic sources discussing parallels in the mythology surrounding Jesus to that of pre-Christian deities (dying-god archetype). A section explaining this should be added to the article.24.190.34.219 (talk) 17:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

That research is reelevant to Christology, not this article. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Cause of death.

Don’t any other groups of people have a view on how Jesus of Nazareth died? I mean allot of non-Religious people think Jesus was a real person… --Frank Fontaine (talk) 15:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that most people who think he was historical also think he died on the cross - and those who think he is an amalgamation of various persons think that aspect comes from someone who died on the cross. Where it becomes iffy is in the details and after the crucification. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

See this article: Cross or stake as gibbet on which Jesus died --AuthorityTam (talk) 18:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

"most" used in the opening sentence, but not again after that

Saying "most Christian denominations" venerate Jesus Christ as the Son of God handles an important issue -- that some groups that have historical roots in Christianity or call themselves Christian don't do this. But unless everywhere where a comment is made about what Christians believe, we intend to use "most," it might be better to find another solution. I suggest: "...commonly venerated within Christian denominations as the Son of God..." Jacor2 (talk) 14:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue isn't the first part of the clause, which you quoted here, but the second part: "most Christian denominations he is venerated as the Son of God and as God incarnate." the problematic section being as God incarnate. And accordingly, we have a section on "Nontrinitarian views", where we explain, for example, "Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus to be God's (or Jehovah's) son, rather than being God himself", "Jesus is not worshiped as God", and "Christadelphians believe that Jesus is literally God's son, hence the Biblical title son of God,[234] not God the Son." So I believe that we already do explain why most, but not all, believe Jesus is god incarnate (and possibly even some Christian denominations not accepting Jesus as Son of God, Oneness and Unity for instance). But your criticism may be important. Do you think there is a way we could highlight these aspects more prominently so that other readers don't experiences the disconnect of content that you did?-A

==

Headline text

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ndrew c ^[talk] 15:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I hadn't realized that that was what was at stake. Makes sense though -- you make a good point. I think I would still make the same suggestion though. Isn't the issue the question of deciding which groups are classified as Christian and which are not? Or rather, isn't that the issue that calls the "most" phrasing into question? I suggested phrasing with "commonly," because it seems to me to be more neutral. Saying "most" is implicitly saying "but not all," which is, in this case, saying that some Christian denominations do not venerate Christ as such. Saying commonly avoids this assertion, but doesn't deny it -- it preserves neutrality, which serves the reader by not distracting him/her from the subject at hand. Jacor2 (talk) 20:08, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this is really a neutrality issue - it is a hard fact that not all Christian groups consider Jesus to have been God Incarnate. To imply otherwise would be misleading. I am happy to say "most" in this context, as it is more accurate. Wdford (talk) 18:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

false references

Hi. Ive spotted something that makes me think someone is deliberately lying. The article says:

"During the fourth century the birth of Jesus came to be celebrated on December 25, the same day[citation needed] ascribed to the birth of Mithras. Mithras, from the Persian god Mithra thousands of years prior", ^[31].

The reference says "Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra (1956) pp. 1-2". According to Amazon.com

Franz Cumont is a scholar who spent his entire life studying Mithras, and one which students of the New Age have been trying to "refute," debunk and reinterpret for a generation. However, Cumont remains the towering figure in the field of Mithraic research.

This 1956 work is a copy of a 1903 Dover book, which itself was a boiled-down English translation of a far larger, 2-volume French-language work published decades before in Cumont's native Belgium. Cumont surveyed literally thousands of fragments from Mithraea, the ancient worship centers of the Mithraic religion.

So I search with Google and find that the book in question (Now in public domain) is freely aviable in http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/index.htm After that I went to pages 1 and 2, which can be found here; and guess what? Yes, There is nothing like Mithra's birthday being December 25. Moreover, the refence number 33 actully says that the Mithraic cult changed the rite to december 25 because it had been established as the Day of the Undefeated Sun by a Roman Emperor... 200 years after christ.

To sum up, the paragraph is at the very least poorly referenced, if not completely invented. —Argentino (talk/cont.) 19:42, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Good work! Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Chronology

I propose to add the following paragraph under the Chronology paragraph:

Alvar Ellegård finds the existence of Jesus, at the time of Paul the Apostle, disproved by the fact that: Paul knew nothing of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary,

(May optionally be added:)

and that the following texts, (p. 31) believed to be contemporary to Paul: the Pastor of Hermas, Didache, The first letter of Clemens Romanus, The letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Hebrews and The Revelation of John, all mentions apostles (missionaries, like Paul), but none of them mentions disciples. St.Trond (talk) 09:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe that paragraph is appropriate for the Chronology section. It already existed in the historicity article, and we really shouldn't be expanding content here that is covered 100% in a spinout article. Not too long ago there is a big fuss on this page about how long it is already. I think a good compromise might be to add Alvar Ellegård's name among the list at Jesus#Mythical_view, if you believe is is as notable and prominent as Wells and Price, or list one of his books amoung The Jesus Puzzle and The Jesus Mysteries, assuming there aren't weight issues. -Andrew c ^[talk] 23:52, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I would add beyond that that we should not suggest that it is a "fact" that Paul "knew nothing of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary," as this is something which, so far as I know, is basically only believed by those who question the historical existence of Jesus. john k (talk) 00:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

In other words, the vast majority of humankind. Wdford (talk) 06:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

If you mean to suggest that "the vast majority of mankind" deny the historical existence of Jesus you are certainly wrong. Paul B (talk) 16:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean: "In other words, the vast majority of the Christians of the humankind"? Please provide a contemporary source which says that Paul knew Jesus was his contemporary. St.Trond (talk) 06:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

No, the vast majority of mankind, which includes Christians and Muslims do by definition, but there is no tradition of denying his existence within Judaism, and it is irrelevant to Buddhism and Hinduism. Even atheists on the whole don't deny he existed, any more than they deny that Mohammed existed. Paul B (talk) 16:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. A majority of people in the world do not believe that Jesus was the Son of God. But most people do accept that he existed and was executed by Pontius Pilate. And whether or not Galatians 1:19 "really" indicates that Paul knew of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary, there are certainly many scholars who argue that it does. As such, it is completely inappropriate to present it as a "fact" that Paul does not recognize Jesus as a contemporary. It may be that the position that St. Trond is espousing is empirically correct, but it is not the dominant position in the scholarship on Paul's epistles, and as such we cannot present it as a "fact." We must rely on what reliable sources say, and there are plenty of reliable sources which dispute St. Trond's fact. john k (talk) 17:27, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

[King James' Bible, Galatians 1:19] "But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." "Brother" usually means "having the same parents" or "being a member of a fraternity or religious group ". Alvar Ellegård, (p. 215) finds that Paul uses "brethren" about "the twelve", and about 500 persons who saw "Jesus as risen". We may guess that "member of a religious group" is the appropriate meaning. Thus James is most likely one among the apostles or members of the religion at the time of Paul. St.Trond (talk) 16:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

A wholly illogical conclusion. If all the apostles were equally "brethren" then there would be no need to say "other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." If he had said "other of the brethren I saw none save James" then the interpretation would be reasonable, but the fact that he singles out James as a brother and not the other apostles strongly indicates that he means brother in the literal sense. Of course that's before any debate about the actual Greek text. Paul B (talk) 11:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems more logical that all the apostles/missionaries were out to do their work, while only brother James remained in the temple. If we all stuck to what is logical, then there had been no entry for Jesus in Wikipedia. St.Trond (talk) 11:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That James would stay in Jerusalem leading the Jerusalem group of Christians would seem illogical onlty to someone who has gicen up on the idea of a thoroughly Jewish Cristianity. In the decade following Jesus' death - when followers may have been divided as to whether he was resurrected or not, and whether God would smite the Romans and establish His Kingdom at any moment - the idea of James trying to lead a robust community of Jewish Christians in Judea is not at all illogical. St.Trond takes beliefs that he formed, a couple of thousand years after these events occured, and uses them to decide what happened. Now, that is illogical. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with the comment regarding James, of Slrubenstein above. It describes James as an exemplary brother among the Lord's apostles/brethren, a good brother at any time of the life of a religion. However, as it does not explain that James also shares one or more parents with Jesus, it does not indicate that Jesus is a contemporary of Paul. St.Trond (talk) 18:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Your interpretation seems wild and desperate distortion of plain meaning to me, but we won't get anywhere arguing the toss. Ellegård is not a reliable source. He's an amateur. His specialism is the English language, not ancient history. The sentence can't be included. Paul B (talk) 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see any evidence that Alvar Ellegård is a reliable source. I am singularly unimpressed by a purported Bible scholar relying on the King James as a source. What matters is that this is a fringe view among Bibl scholars, although persistent among some dilettantes, and the article gives it full justice. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

St.Trond is clearly trolling here. Why should we try to argue in good faith with someone who says things like, "If we all stuck by what is logical, then there had been no entry for Jesus in Wikipedia"? Let's move on. john k (talk) 18:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Chronology 2

I have reworked the paragraph, and find it convenient to reset the discussion. I propose to add the following paragraph at the end of the "Chronology" paragraph:

Alvar Ellegård finds that Paul reveals no knowledge of the existence of Jesus as his contemporary. Ellegård finds this to be a theological problem with the Christian Chronology, which has been noticed earlier. According to Ellegård, the same may apply to the following texts, which he shows to be roughly contemporary to Paul: the Pastor of Hermas, Didache, The first letter of Clemens Romanus, The letter of Barnabas, The Letter to the Hebrews and The Revelation of John. St.Trond (talk) 06:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Ellegård is not a reliable source for this article. He may be appropriate for the Jesus Myth article. Feel free to raise this at the ‎Reliable Sources noticeboard. Paul B (talk) 09:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Addition to the Purpose sub-section under '3.7 Ministry'

This section is currently good, in terms of structure: paragraph 1 quoting Jesus' description of his own ministry, followed by paragraph 2 quoting author's descriptions.

I think someone with the required permission (I'm not a seasoned editor yet) should also include the John 18:37 self-description Jesus gives of his purpose:- "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." (John 18:37)

That is all.

Rob.m.baker (talk) 00:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment on authenticity of Mark 16

Two editors (including moi) have differing views on whether a comment regarding the authenticity of the "longer version of Mark 16" properly belongs in the Jesus article. (Edit 'diff' is | here. To my way of thinking, a long(ish) article such as this, should be kept closer to the subject. The "longer version of Mark" article is already linked to in the article, so should be sufficient I think, if readers wish to explore that issue. ^rossnixon 01:39, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

History Assumed

I have read through previous posts, and though close, none that I could find specifically address the presumption in this sentence: "Most critical scholars in the fields of history and biblical studies believe that some parts of the New Testament are useful for reconstructing Jesus' life".

The sentence would fairly read: "Most critical scholars in the field of biblical studies believe that some parts of the New Testament are useful for reconstructing Jesus' life". OR ""Most critical scholars in the field of biblical history believe that some parts of the New Testament are useful for reconstructing Jesus' life"

This removes the following problems with the original statement: 1) Critical scholars of history are often mis-represented or under-represented in biblical studies, particularly relating to the historical Jesus. 2) The word "most" implies that to-date there has been a fair assessment of a full pool of "historians". And if (1) is true, then we are using the word "most" to define a pool that is known to be based on an incomplete survey. 3) Perhaps most critical scholars dealing only in history (and not the combined history of biblical studies) would not test-out the historical Jesus. History can be clearly removed from history related to a particular text (especially a sacred text). 3) To add the weight of "most critical scholars" of history to this argument subtly reinforces the idea that there is agreement on the historical evidence of Jesus' life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.82.126.100 (talk) 23:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

After further thought, I think the entire statement should be deleted. In addition to the problems listed above, the article is about a character in the Bible (and in some related texts). To add the weight of critical scholars is presumptious and irrelevant. The entire article can be written about a character, with a less partisan approach to the history. This statement is out of place here, and maybe even of dubious quality in the article about the historicty of Jesus.

Sorry, I do not get your point. In an article on the Duke of Wellington, if we way :most historians" surely it is understood historians of modern Europe or even modern England. if we write an article on Alexander the great "Most historians" it is understood we mean historians of claasical Hellenic world. Why would anyone care what a historian of ancient greece thinks about some debate concerning the Duke of Wellington? How is a historian of modern Europe qulified to particpate in a debate about Alexander the Great? Similarly, isn't it obfious that when we refer to historians in this article we are talking about historians who are experts on the NT as a historical document (meaning, a document or set of documents composed by humans during a particular period in history under specific historical conditions) or first century Roman occupied Palestine? Why would anyone care what an expert on the Duke of Willington or the history of the Soviet Union or the history of the late Ottoman Empire has to say on the topic? Do we really ned to point out that we are NOT including people who lacks scholarly credentials for this period of history in thie part of the world? I do not get your poiNt. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:39, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

^^^^JG, 30-Sep-2009 6pm MST

Point taken, but the issue isn't that a historian on European history should know anything about Biblical history... the issue is that the historical "consensus" is really a strange subject in this article (which is about a character in the Bible), and that historians that disagree about the history are under-represented and often mis-represented. The statement is partisan, and doesn't belong in this section. In the field of sacred texts, there is often an ignored segment of counter-opinion that is brushed aside with statements like "most critical scholars agree". Part of my point comes from knowing that in fact I believe that non-partisan historians actually find meager support for the historical Jesus... which says to me that this statement is probably not justifiable and is certainly not provable (and doesn't add anything to the article--except bias). This is another subtle reinforcement of a hotly contested historical issue. Imagine this article being written in the 13th century... would this opening statement still be considered a harmless statement of fact, or would a critical scholar recognize that the claim is biased? 67.177.220.37 (talk) 17:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)JG, 02-Oct-2009 11am MST

And again, there are numerous places set-up to discuss the historicity of Jesus... this article appears to be about the character. This profile can be factually based on descriptions and discussions about the character, without any unnecessary reference to the historical debate, and certainly without any claims of scholarly consensus. 67.177.220.37 (talk) 17:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Main image: if all are equally disputed, choose what is believed by many to be the real image

Presently, under the present image of the Pantokrator, we have this statement: "no undisputed record of what Jesus looked like is known to exist."

Given this, i.e. all being equally controversial, I would like to propose that we use an image that is thought of by many people as the real image of the original Jesus: the Shroud of Turin. Although believers are the one's who mainly subscribe to its being a real image, even non-believers who dispute this record of what Jesus looked like and think it is a hoax, see that this is an excellent 13th century painting or depiction of Jesus (especially now that scientists are reviewing the radiocarbon dating).

My point is that if there exists a real image of the original Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, Benjamin Disraeli, William Gladstone, don't we usually choose to use the real image as in their present Wikipedia articles? And for Jesus, given that all depictions are equally disputed, then we should follow the logic of using the image that (a) is claimed by many to show the original visage of Jesus, (b) is the most famous image among those which purport to show the real face of Jesus, (c) is accepted by others as an extraordinary attempt in painting or depicting the original person. Historyprofrd (talk) 03:05, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, St. Trond, the devout atheist of wikipedia, for the link to McCrone's conclusion that it is "a beautiful painting created about 1355" and "an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist." It supports point (c). Historyprofrd (talk) 01:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't want this to sound like silent consensus, but I don't have much to say except that I personally don't like that idea. I think the Turin image is a bit creepy, and I associate it with 1980s Time-Life paranormal books. Doesn't seem professional. I've never encountered it in any scholarly works that I've encountered either. Also seems like a fairly controversial image (is it is real, is it a forgery, is it something else, is it a relic, etc?). Anyway, just my 2 cents. -Andrew c ^[talk] 03:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is an image of a dead man, something that many naturally find "a bit creepy"; but is that reason to exclude it? If I remember right, Wikipedia has an image of the death mask of Martin Luther. Soidi (talk) 16:54, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

It is a terribl idea. I would really like to see evidence for this claim: "even non-believers who dispute this record of what Jesus looked like and think it is a hoax, see that this is an excellent 13th century painting or depiction of Jesus." Even if true, it is a 13th century imagining ... not of Jesus's likeness but of the impression he left on his death shroud. It had importance as a relic, not as a portrait of Jesus. And there is no reason to think a 13th century imagining is any better than any other representation, including the computer-generated image of a 1st century Judean/Galilean we argued about before. We have argued about images in general, and my own view has been to oppose them as a whole. But if we are to include images, I'd rather we stuck with artist's images of Jesus throughout the ages (e.g. starting with early Byzantine) ... not an image of a fake impression of some generic person on some shroud. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:19, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Soidi. Creepiness is something subjective. For some it is not creepy at all but a a face which shows peace and calm, a face that is in fact venerated by thousands upon thousands. The problem of Slrubestein mentions is solved by the link provided by St. Trond which I referred to earlier: [1] Please read what I wrote above. McCrone's conclusion is that it is "a beautiful painting created about 1355" and "an inspired painting produced by a Medieval artist." It supports point (c). To say that it is but a relic and does not have importance as an image or portrait is not proven by facts. Kindly read Shroud of Turin and word image outnumbers relic by many. Please also read Holy Face of Jesus and word relic does not appear. The word image appears uncountable times. ;-) Just exagerrating for humor's sake.... I respect your views but IMHO here we should not base decisions on "I find" "I rather" "I personally don't like" but on solid reasons. Please take into account that the belief that it is fake is just one more. The belief that it is the real deal is widespread in the 1 billion Catholic church and 2 billion Christians. Some non-believers also see it as original but reason out based on science. So these opinions have to be taken into account. If one reason is "through the ages" then this has been venerated to be the real deal from the beginning. That it is not used in other scholarly works is not a basis. Wikipedia purports to be better, more logical and more reasonable, more groundbreaking. Historyprofrd (talk) 02:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The images in this article, while arguably not portraits of the historical Jesus, clearly are art/religious representations of Jesus, depicting religious symbolism and imagery, and/or depicting scenes from the gospels. The images are fairly broad, covering through the ages and through the sects. It is always tough to choose an image for the top of the article, because then we are giving prominence to one view. For all these images, even non-Christians can agree that the artist was intending to illustrate the character of Jesus. This is not the same for the Shroud of Turin. The images does not help the reader understand religious symbolism associated with Jesus, the image does not help the reader understand a gospel narrative involving Jesus, nor is it particularly characteristic of how a certain sect or time period depiction Jesus' appearance. The only thing going for it is that some people believe it to be an actual image of Jesus, but this is hotly debated, even among Christians and Catholics. Thus, the image is controversial, and doesn't add much understanding to the topic at hand. Furthermore, as stated above, reliable sources do not give so much prominence (if they cover at all) the Shroud of Turin. WP:V and WP:RS are still important aspect of Wikipedia, even if I personally think the image is unappealing. We mention the Shroud once in the entire article. If there was an reason to discuss the Shroud in more detail, and there was consensus, I wouldn't oppose adding an image of the Shroud further down the article in the corresponding section ("Legacy"), but I have yet to be convinced it deserves to be at the top. Arguments like this has been venerated to be the real deal from the beginning are nonsensical when the actual providence of the Shroud only goes to the 14th century. Without sources, The belief that it is the real deal is widespread in the 1 billion Catholic church and 2 billion Christians. is not helpful. If we did have notable sources claiming this is the most ecumenical image and most venerated image, that would be a better argument for inclusion at the top. -Andrew c ^[talk] 14:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

It is not a general worshipping of this medieval fake relic. It may be among Roman Catholics, as the Pope seems interested in it. If Catholics want it on the Catholic page it may be put there, but it should be rejected here. Anyway, it should be referred to as a painting and a Catholic fake relic, as that is what it is. St.Trond (talk) 15:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a good seletion of art work currently in the article and I see no reason to add a relic to the mix. --^StormRider 19:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. Let's recall the objective of Wikipedia. When someone comes to Wikipedia and wants to know about Jesus, they want to know above all about Jesus, i.e. the person, the man. Not religious symbolism about him, the gospel narrative about him, how a sect depicts him. Yes they also and secondarily want to know about these things, and somehow the shroud image shows these also (the gospel says he was tortured, this is a religious relic venerated, and this is kept by the Catholic church), but they came to here to know the man. And what a better way to know a man than to see his face, his real face. The face is the mirror of the soul, of the person, the mirror of the man. It tells a thousand words about the guy. That is why we have used the picture of Abraham Lincoln et al and not a portrait of them as the top picture. Let's also leave behind our prejudices in this discussion. To say categorically that this is actually a fake is to uncritically ignore all the biological, forensic, historical, chemical etc etc evidence in shroud science, and to accept uncritically the old and disputed 1988 radio carbon dating which the director of England's Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit wants to be reviewed. See this [2] and this [3] A more guarded scientific pressuposition is right for Wikipedia. Please try to see this objectively and see the multicultural and multi perspectives on this image of Jesus. The argument I raised takes into account these many perspectives and given that the "face is the feature which best distinguishes a person (Wikipedia on face}, and given that this is the the best and most famous image that purports to show the original, then it is reasonable to show it, together with a caption that it is disputed. Again, let me reiterate that this article itself avers that all images are disputed. That's a given. So it is reasonable to use one which has great illustrative informative capacity to give information to Wiki readers (potentially if true and artistically if fake) about this person, this man, this face. Compare this information giving power (50% possibility of being real and 50% fake) to an artist's rendition which has 0% possibility of copying the original). And with key scientists wanting to review the facts, this is not a 50:50 thing anymore, given all the other evidences. Historyprofrd (talk) 01:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

It's not 50:50 alright - it's about zero percent. There is no reliable positive evidence that the Shroud is real. There have been enough "real" splinters from the "real" cross to re-build the Victory, and many saints must have had more appendages than Cthullu to account for the number or relics. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The Shroud has no reliable history for the first 1300 years of it purported life - even if it were of the right age, the a-priory chance that it is the real thing is negligible. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"And what a better way to know a man than to see his face, his real face. The face is the mirror of the soul, of the person, the mirror of the man. It tells a thousand words about the guy????" Okay, I think this guy has had his soap-box long enough. Historyprofrd, these pages are to discuss improvements to articles in compliance with our core content policies. It is not a place for you to soapbox. Stephan Sculz is right. Let's move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Please don't give me an ad hominem argument. Or an argument that skirts my main argument by just mere assertion of opinion on the authenticity of the shroud. The content policy on verifiability and reliability are taken care of by these websites and works:

• http://www.sindonology.org/papers/papers.shtml
• http://www.shroud.com/papers.htm
• http://www.sindonology.org/conferenceReviews/dallasConference.shtml
• http://www.shroud.com/library.htm#papers
• http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/rogers2.pdf
• http://www.factsplusfacts.com/ - gathers facts

All image are disputed. And there is one that mainly purports to be the original. Historyprofrd (talk) 12:40, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The way an attempt was made simply to dismiss Historyprofrd was, I think, unjustified. I'm quite uncertain about the suitability of having his preferred image as the principal image, but I am convinced that it has at least as much right to be included as any of the artworks at present in the article. Inserting it can certainly be seen as improving the article. Soidi (talk) 15:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with this approach is that it gives credence to the disputed image, as if we are somehow giving it special status. If we use an image that everyone knows is not authentic, and state that, then we are not supporting any particular image. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Each of the images now in the article has formed the mind-picture that some people have of the subject. All but two have an indication of the century in which they were produced. Can we not add to the Shroud image an indication of the century to which it was assigned in the tests to which it was subjected? Soidi (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

The reason this painting is venerated is that it is believed by some to be produced in some divine way. If the person shown in the painting really is meant to be Jesus, then it was a medieval con to bring a dead person's soul into Paradise. If the person depicted on the shroud is for example a crusader, then it should not be indicated that it is Jesus. If it is indicated today that it may be a relic, then that is a con too. The painting should not be referred to as an image, we know how it was produced, it should be referred to as a painting and that it is used today as a fake relic. St.Trond (talk) 17:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, go ahead and call it a painting (like some of the other images/paintings already in the article), but include it. (It seems, however, that it is not in fact a painting, but a picture, an image, or whatever you wish to call it, produced by a process that did not involve paint.) The models for other images/paintings were not Jesus. Are they presented as if they were? And who is asking that it be presented as a relic? Soidi (talk) 17:47, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

These websites attest to the fact that there is a recent craze over the shroud, in part because cable and broadband has created too much TV space for broadcasters to know what to do with. I fully acknowledge that there are people who devoutly and piously believe this to be an image of Jesus, not Paul's Jesus of the spirit but Jesus of the flesh. But I know of no credible historians who believe this. I am all for Wikipedia having an article on the shroud, I do not think it belongs in this article. for what it is worth I have qualms about all the images of Jesus, but the thing is, they do not pretend to be what most historians say they are not (portraits of the real Jesus). My problem with the shroud is that it pretends to be what most historians say it is not (an image of the real Jesus). Slrubenstein | Talk 17:58, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi, where are you suggesting it be included in the article? What section? As I stated earlier, the only section that makes sense to me is "Legacy", and even given that, with the amount of corresponding text in that section devoted to the Shroud, adding the image may be undo weight. -Andrew c ^[talk] 18:07, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I hadn't at all thought about where would be the best place to insert it. But it seems to me that the obvious place would be in connection with his death.

It does not have to be presented as "an image of the real Jesus". Can it not be presented, like the others, simply as an image/picture/depiction/whatever-you-want-to-call-it of Jesus? A more famous and remarkable one than most, one which, for that reason, would add to the article. A simple link to the article Shroud of Turin should be enough to take care of questions regarding the identity of the image/picture/depiction/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Soidi (talk) 19:27, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Soidi. You have understood my arguments and did not lose focus. I specially applaud your question: "And who is asking that it be presented as a relic?" because this is all about an image. Yes I concede that it would be too much to ask for it to be made top image. I agree that its place is in the Death section. But please do not add a date to it because that means taking sides in the ongoing debate and Wikipedia is not supposed to do that. Better to replace the El Greco painting with Velasquez and then put the Shroud in place of Velasquez. There are many professional historians, of course mostly historians who are Christians, who deem the shroud authentic based on historical evidence. There are many because there are many universities set up by the Catholic church, which may not be too well known in protestant countries or secularized countries. People should take note that several websites list books and scholarly articles, not gossip trash. Systemic bias and prejudice could be at work in not understanding why the shroud image improves the article. Historyprofrd (talk) 09:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I am happy to include the shroud image, provided it is properly captioned and cross-referenced. However I strongly disagree with the suggestion that no date be added because that would be "taking sides in an on-going debate". There is no on-going debate - carbon-dating by a number of recognised scientists has shown the shroud is no older than the Middle Ages, and the debate is over. Suggestions that the portion of fabric tested may not have been original, are pure speculation. This suggests that the entire team of scientists who took the original samples were complete fools, which is baseless and thus fringe. There is no "historical evidence" that supports a 2000-year old shroud - the thing appeared out of nowhere at around the same time that the carbon-dating indicates it was manufactured. If fresh info comes to light then the records will obviously change, but for now, the accepted mainstream scientific consensus has it that the shroud is a medieval forgery, and Wikipedia is supposed to present accepted mainstream consensus. Wdford (talk) 10:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Can we agree to include the image with a caption such as: "The Shroud of Turin's image of the dead Christ. Radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the thirteenth century". The proposed statement about the 1988 tests holds, even if the scientific judgement were one day to be altered. The words "relic" and "fake" should both be avoided here. Soidi (talk) 11:18, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I have a degree of ambivalence and yet, I also fail to understand the value of this image relative to all other paintings, sculptures, etc. of Jesus. Granted I would probably delete some of the images already in the article because I personally don't care of them. What happens the next time someone wants to add another personal favorite? By choosing the Shroud of Turin what does the article gain? Is it improved or is the Shroud elevated? As far as placing it in the death or legacy section; how does any image compare to the Pietà at death? IMHO, nothing compares to that particular masterpiece.

This entire conversation started out from the premise of "we use an image that is thought of by many people as the real image of the original Jesus". It is obvious that the intent is not simply to add another image, but it is to aggrandize the Shroud. On the other hand, that might be just reason enough to have it in the article. Of course, this is not a Christian article per se, but rather an article about Jesus in all contexts. Surely the article would be better improved by adding a picture from the other religions, which are not well represented in the image department?

Again, some ambivalence, but I still don't think the article is improved by adding it. --^StormRider 11:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

To Soidi: Why don't you want to you use "fake relic"? That is why it is venerated. What about "medieval shroud painting", or "venerated medieval shroud painting"? I am against using "image" as we know it is a painting. St.Trond (talk) 08:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

This would need a bit of education and learning from peer reviewed journals and experts:

Editor of Nature, Philip Ball, He holds a degree in chemistry from Oxford and a doctorate in physics from Bristol University. He was an editor for the journal Nature for over 10 years (Wikipedia).: "Attempts to date the Turin Shroud are a great game, but don't imagine that they will convince anyone...And yet, the shroud is a remarkable artifact, one of the few religious relics to have a justifiably mythical status. It is simply not known how the ghostly image of a serene, bearded man was made." (Nature online, January 2005)

Journal: Thermochimica Acta (Vol 425, Jan 2005) “Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin”, Raymond Rogers, "leading expert in thermal analysis" (Wikipedia): The fact that vanillin cannot be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicate that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggest the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years...The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis/ms proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud.

Christopher Ramsey, head of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit which participated in the 1988 Carbon 14 Dating of the Shroud. (Mar 2008): There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow and so further research is certainly needed. It is important that we continue to test the accuracy of the original radiocarbon tests as we are already doing. It is equally important that experts assess and reinterpret some of the other evidence. Only by doing this will people be able to arrive at a coherent history of the Shroud which takes into account and explains all of the available scientific and historical information.

Robert Villarreal, Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) chemist who headed a team of nine scientists at LANL which examined material from the carbon 14 sampling region. (Aug 2008): [T]he age-dating process failed to recognize one of the first rules of analytical chemistry that any sample taken for characterization of an area or population must necessarily be representative of the whole. The part must be representative of the whole. Our analyses of the three thread samples taken from the Raes and C-14 sampling corner showed that this was not the case. Historyprofrd (talk) 13:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Why should we express any judgement here on whether the Shroud is a relic or a fake? That is for the article(s) on the Shroud. Here we are only interested in the image on it. It is a decidedly notable image of Jesus, even if it is only of the thirteenth century. I repeat my suggestion for an NPOV caption: "The Shroud of Turin's image of the dead Christ. Radiocarbon tests in 1988 dated it to the thirteenth century."

Perhaps Storm Rider is right in attributing to Historyprofrd the aim of "elevating" the Shroud. I prefer to make no judgement on that matter. For my part, I don't think I have any such intention. I just think, as I said, that it is an image of such notability that it deserves to be included somewhere. I don't see any reason for putting it under the heading "Legacy", at least no reason more than there is for the images made for Christian devotion that are at present in the article. Putting this particular image under "Legacy" would draw attention to the claims made about it. As I also said, I think no mention whatever should be made in this article of those claims. Soidi (talk) 14:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

There are 4 images without dates and 10 images with dates. Why tilt the balance further? Historyprofrd (talk) 01:02, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi: It is a fake and not a relic: The image is made up of pigment particles of ochre and vermilion, which has only been used since the 14th century. St.Trond (talk) 06:57, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the amount of talk here is evidence of two things: (1) the article deserves its own article, that can do justice to the range of beliefs and controversies, and (2) this article cannot provide an adequate account of it without going off on an unaffordably lengthy t tangent. The article should at sope point mention Catholicism. The article on Catholicism should mention relics. The article on relics should mention the Shroud of Turin (most relics are what we would call fakes and they were hot commodities in the Middle Ages; there is a scholarly literature on this, start with Geary in the volume The Social Life of Things edited by Appadurai). Slrubenstein | Talk 10:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

StT and SlR, why do you two think this could be a place to discuss whether the Shroud is a fake or a relic? There are already two (no less) articles in Wikipedia on that matter, one concentrating on the Shroud itself, the other on the 1988 tests. So why again say that the Shroud deserves its own article, as if it didn't already have one? All that is proposed here is inclusion of the image. Anyone interested in the claims made for or against the Shroud can go to those two articles, to which links can be provided. Even if StT is right (and can source his statement) and the 1988 tests wrong, all we need do is change the indication "thirteenth" century to "fourteenth". It would be as out of place to mention relics (false or true) here as to say that a particular image is traditionally seen as wonder-working. I am only suggesting that the image be included, not a discussion of the Shroud. So what is wrong with including the image as an image? Or what is wrong with the caption I proposed? Soidi (talk) 15:42, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Fine. On the understanding that no actual portraits of Jesus exist, and that the shroud has no more claim to accuracy than any other image, I am happy to include the shroud image as one among many, with the caption "An image of the dead Christ on the Shroud of Turin, which was dated by radiocarbon-dating tests in 1988 to the thirteenth century". If anybody is strongly opposed, please could you give clear reasons and your suggested alternative? Wdford (talk) 18:08, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi you ignored my basic point which is that I think that the explanation required to explain the Shroud accurately so overwhelms this article ... that it is best left for its own article. The article exists? Great!! no one can complain that Wikipedia is exclusing the Shroud.

Now, if we are to include it, strictly speaking, it is not an image of the dead Jesus in the sense most people I think inend (i.e. the impression made on the fabric by Jesus' actual body), it is an image that people claimed to be of the dead Jesus. The only reason we do not say this with other works of art presented is that I know of no one who ever claimed that an icon or painting was an image of the living Jesus. Or to be clearer, the problem is image has two meanings. A painting is an imagined image. Many have claimed that the shroud is the actual imprint of Jesus, more like a photograph taken at the time. I would agree with "An image, claimed by some to be of the dead Jesus," on the ..." "believed by some" would be fine too, if anyone thinks the word claim has negative connotations. Phrased like that i have no objection although I still think it adds nothing to the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:53, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry: I don't see what is overwhelming about "An image of the dead Christ on the Shroud of Turin, which was dated by radiocarbon-dating tests in 1988 to the thirteenth century"? Should we shorten it to "The Dead Christ, Shroud of Turin, radiocarbon-dated to 13th century"? Then it will be uniform with, for instance, "Adoration of the Shepherds, Gerard van Honthorst, 17th century". I feel sure you are convinced that the Adoration of the Shepherds never took place, but I presume too that you do believe that Jesus died. What else do you think the image is of if not of Jesus as dead? Why go into what people believe about the content of the 13th-century(?) image, and not into what people believe about the 17th-century image? Soidi (talk) 20:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Dead Jesus, not dead christ. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Then just cut the radiocarbon dated, just say, 13th century. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Endorsing the 1988 tests as undoubtedly valid without making mention of the existence of a contrary theory, even if it is only a fringe theory, would not be NPOV. We may not agree with those who dispute the validity of the tests, but the validity is in fact disputed. Why are you insisting on bringing into this article a dispute of which the article has absolutely no need and which is indeed quite out of place in the article? Why do you object to just stating the undoubted fact without taking sides, one way or another? If I remember right, but perhaps my memory is false, you accused another editor of having as his aim to exalt the Shroud, not to improve the article. Is it possible that you have as your perhaps subconscious aim to downplay the Shroud, not to improve the article? Maybe not, and I am making no accusation; but I think I have to ask you the question. Soidi (talk) 15:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Shroud of Turin caption and dates

Lots of things are disputed by the enlightened minority, but Wikipedia does not shy away from taking sides, Wikipedia states the mainstream opinion as fact and the fringe opinion as fringe. For example Wikipedia does not take sides in the articles on Christianity or Jesus, but states the facts as per current mainstream opinion. If it subsequently turns out that the earth really is flat, or that Elvis really is still alive, or that the Shroud of Turin really is 2000 years old, then Wikipedia will be updated to reflect that new consensus. Right now, the 1988 radiocarbon results still stand. The quality control at the time did not doubt that the many experienced scientists involved selected a representative sample, or that they decontaminated it properly, or that they did anything wrong at all, and three different labs all reached the same conclusion. Any scientist who claims that the sampled section was non-representative or contaminated will need to prove his/her claims first. Until then, such claims are fringe, and must be reflected as such. ¬¬¬¬ — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Wdford (talk • contribs)

Of course, Wikipedia does not have to shy away from taking sides on the Shroud's authenticity. The place for doing so is in the two articles concerning its alleged authenticity. But in what way is it useful to this article to raise the question here? Soidi (talk) 18:07, 11 October 2009 (UTC) `

Soidi, you may well be right about my unconscious motives. I will have to think about it. It is fair for you to raise the point. All I can say is: my conscious intent was simply to suggest uniform phrasing for all images. If others think that this is inappropriate (that different images require different amounts and kinds of information) I won't pursue the argument. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi and Wdford, allow me to tell you that you are both wrong on mainstream opinion and fringe opinion on the 1988 carbon dating. The Wikipedia article on this topic has to be updated. If you check footnote number 2 that says "This dating is now generally accepted by the scientific community", the footnote reads: Piergiorgio Odifreddi. La sindone, un mistero per modo di dire. La Repubblica, November 25, 2000, page 48. It does not even have a link. However, what I painstakingly quoted as the pronouncements of experts (Nature Editor, Philip Ball et al) are dated January 2005, March 2008, August 2008. They are found in the web. If by mainstream opinion you want to believe an Italian writer of la Repubblica (born a radical/socialist newspaper) in the year 2000, then please do so, but please do not take Wikipedia with you. I do not mean to be sarcastic but I want to drive home a very important point. Historyprofrd (talk) 08:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

History, I still think that this isn't the place to discuss the validity of the tests and that here we should limit ourselves to stating the bald fact of what the tests reported. Whether they were right or wrong is for the article dedicated to that precise question and, in less detailed fashion, for the article on the Shroud itself, and I have proposed to include a link to each of them. Propaganda either in support of or in opposition to the validity of the tests is out of place here. Soidi (talk) 09:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi, I feel your passion for 1988 radiocarbon dating and its bald results, how about passion for bald results of the 2005 and 2008 scientific studies? What I mean is that if this isn't the place to discuss validity of tests as you very well say, why include one side of the debate in the image caption, and not the other? Why do propaganda for one side and not for the other? And since no one has shown a more recent scientific study disproving the 2005 and 2008 scientific results, then to push for the ancient 1988 results is more propaganda (misleading info) than to push for the 2008 results. Historyprofrd (talk) 00:50, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Would you please specify what you mean by the 2005 and 2008 scientific results, by giving a reference to some particular section of one or other of the two articles on the subject? I have failed to identify which ones you mean. You obviously do not mean any of the experiments that produced near-identical replicas of the Shroud. You probably mean claims that the 1988 samples came from a contaminated part of the Shroud or similar claims casting doubt on the validity of the 1988 tests but without positively proving that the Shroud is of some earlier date. If there were scientific tests proving an earlier date, they could be mentioned; but if it is only a matter of disputing the validity of the 1988 scientific tests, the wikilinks to the two articles are enough to indicate the existence of that dispute.

I think my proposal is a fair presentation. If you insist on turning this article into a third article on the disputed age of the Shroud, I regret that I cannot support inclusion here of the image on the Shroud. Soidi (talk) 06:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, Soidi. Kindly note that I have never insisted on turning this article into a third article on the disputed age of the Shroud. I wonder where that idea came from. :) I hope people here have seen what I wrote earlier: "There are 4 images without dates and 10 images with dates. Why tilt the balance further?" This clearly shows my position: I do not want any dates accompanying the shroud. And these are the reasons: Because (a) there is a dispute and (b) because there are other images without a date, why tilt the balance further in favor of dates? why pick on the shroud when there is letter (a) and (b). I hope (a) and (b) can be clarifed. Thank you. Historyprofrd (talk) 07:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the correct solution is to date all images (where possible). Without historic context, this is just an image gallery. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Also state the process by which each image has been produced, for example "painted". St.Trond (talk) 10:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Wdford (talk) 10:09, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Ok, then, let's date all the images. I support that. Since the date for the shroud is disputed and there are arguments for both 14th century and 1st century dates, then we should put both. Soidi, here are the links you requested: statement of Philip Ball:Editor of Nature (Nature online, January 2005), : "Attempts to date the Turin Shroud are a great game, but don't imagine that they will convince anyone...And yet, the shroud is a remarkable artifact, one of the few religious relics to have a justifiably mythical status. It is simply not known how the ghostly image of a serene, bearded man was made." He also said: "It is, [Rogers] says, between 1300 and 2000 years old. Let's call it somewhere around the middle of that range, which puts the age at about 2,000 years. Which can mean only one thing . . ." And the other quote from Raymond Rogers: Journal: Thermochimica Acta (Vol 425, Jan 2005) “Studies on the Radiocarbon Sample from the Shroud of Turin”, Raymond Rogers The fact that vanillin cannot be detected in the lignin on shroud fibers, Dead Sea scrolls linen, and other very old linens indicate that the shroud is quite old. A determination of the kinetics of vanillin loss suggest the shroud is between 1300- and 3000-years old. Even allowing for errors in the measurements and assumptions about storage conditions, the cloth is unlikely to be as young as 840 years...The combined evidence from chemical kinetics, analytical chemistry, cotton content, and pyrolysis/ms proves that the material from the radiocarbon area of the shroud is significantly different from that of the main cloth. The radiocarbon sample was thus not part of the original cloth and is invalid for determining the age of the shroud. Christopher Ramsey Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, from its own website: "There is a lot of other evidence that suggests to many that the Shroud is older than the radiocarbon dates allow and so further research is certainly needed." For more data, you can check this out: Shroud of Turin Carbon Dating Biggest Radiocarbon Mistake Ever. Historyprofrd (talk) 11:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, all you link to are quotes that are completely out-of context, and often second and third hand. Have you read Rogers and Ball first-hand? Ramsey's quote, which, btw is here is from an article that refutes one suggested argument for miss-measurement. Ball's text is here, and he is quite sceptical of Roger's claim, and even more sceptical of the general field. "Believers' ability to construct ingenious arguments is more than a match for the most exhaustive efforts of science. The shroud literature leaves no stone unturned in casting doubt on 'evidence' that the relic was faked, while embracing with blind rapture every argument for its authenticity. " Indeed, even if you accept Roger's paper at face value, it certainly does not provide significant positive evidence for a first-century origin, with an error range of 1700 years. At best, it does not refute it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

The purported limitations regarding radiocarbon testing of religiously sensitive materials should be brought to, and discussed on, the page regarding Radiocarbon dating. The Jesus talk page cannot be involved in discussions about physical phenomena. Only the physically logical solution should be presented on the Jesus page. St.Trond (talk) 14:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

I have an idea that can help quell the controversy: don't include the shroud image in this article. I don't believe it is necessary, and I believe we can easily include works of art that better illustrate the concepts of Jesus' death/resurrection. The shroud is controversial, and thus needs further explanation, and additionally doesn't relate to the article's text in that section. -Andrew c ^[talk] 16:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Now that is "constructive"! Great Idea - Ret.Prof (talk) 21:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

To those who are again dismissing the image, please return to the main arguments, please focus, and do not use merely personal assertions.

To those who may object to a first century dating appearing with the 14th century dating: Please be reminded of NPOV: Articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing all significant views fairly, proportionately, and without bias. The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. It requires that all majority- and significant-minority views must be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material.

To those who may say there is no verifiable source that that there is a significant view that it is from the first century, then this is one: http://www.ohioshroudconference.com/papers/p11.pdf. There are many more. They can be found in the websites I previously gave links to, e.g. textile analysis, pollen analysis, vanillin analysis, language analysis, microparticle analysis, blood analysis, body image analysis, human anatomy analysis, historical analysis, etc. Raymond Rogers before he died also gave a statement that he believed that the shroud is the real burial cloth of Jesus. This 1998 Results of a probabilistic model applied to the research carried out on the Turin Shroud is interesting because it summarizes some of the scientific data on why the shroud is most probably the burial cloth of Jesus.

To St. Trond, on painting, please see this.Historyprofrd (talk) 01:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

To Historyprofrd: The "blood stains" of the shroud was found to contain pigments of red ochre and vermilion. These substances were not tested in the article you point at. Why? Because they were used only since the 14th century? According to your article the first bishop to see it confirmed that it was a painting. I still think you should try your points at the page about radiocarbon dating. St.Trond (talk) 07:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

...and the best you can say about the probability model paper is that the authors are upfront: "It was made up a probabilistic model...". Seriously, the "model" is nonsense, and the probabilities used are arbitrary, and obviously wrong. They consider three cases: It's the real thing, it's a medieval forgery, and "everything else". Note that the "everything else category includes the case that it is a first-century shroud, just not Jesus'. All so-called evidence that the Shroud is from the middle east gives nearly equal weight to the Jesus and the "other" category, although the a-priori probability of the "Jesus" hypothesis is only (still unrealistically high) 5%. This is complete mathematical nonsense. And even the C14 dating gives nearly equal weight to all three hypotheses... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you both, Stephan and St. Trond. Wikipedia is not interested in truth but in verifiability, notability, use of reliable sources and neutrality: including all significant points of view. I believe all the above arguments have proven that the point of view of the Shroud being either a real image of the original Jesus or a fake, and the shroud being of 14th century provenance or of 1st century provenance is significant, notable, verifiable and has reliable sources, and is neutral. Historyprofrd (talk) 01:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia has two articles that deal with the provenance. There is no need to deal with it here also. Soidi (talk) 05:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Historyprofrd forwarded a suggestion some time ago. It has gained little traction. AndrewC made a sensible suggestion, which seems to reflect the majority opinion on this page if not consensus, but every time people are ready to move on to talk about some meaningful way to inprove the article (like, hey I don't know, read another book on the topic? Or is that kind of research not appropriate for an encyclopedia?), Historyprofrd makes the same proposal. Many responses, but Historyprofrd's position has not changed, she just keeps repeating it. wp:DE anyone? Slrubenstein | Talk 05:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Reading through all this talk, I can sense a difference between rational thinking (Historyprofd) and disruptive argumentation (St. Trond and others). Is there a mafia here? Historyprofd gave a magisterial defense of his position and I am in favor of all his proposals. His are legitimate propositions backed up by Wikipedia policies. Jesus' shroud image is famous all over the globe as his image. A Wikipedia article on Jesus will be vastly improved by its presence within thhe article. Congratulations Historyprofd! Lafem (talk) 11:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I suppose Lafem doesn't include me in the "mafia", since I have argued against omitting the image. If Historyprofd were satisfied with an implicit reference to the dispute about the date (just a wikilink to each of the two existing articles that discuss the question), we might move on to including the image. If Lafem is indeed in favour of including an explicit reference to the dispute, Lafem seems to be the only editor who supports History's wish. Why does Lafem think that an implicit reference is not enough? Soidi (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

You have to read Preserve information. I am against censorship even implicit censorship of a vital piece of information. The date of an exact mirror image (like a photograph) of an individual is vital information that should be contained in his article, isn't it? If it is verifiable and vital, why should it be implicit? And if it not vital, why is it vittal to put the date on the radiocarbon dating and the other pictures? Tell me, Soidi, why?Lafem (talk) 11:53, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I am very pleased to state my agreement with the ideas of Soidi, Historyprofrd, and Lafem in not omitting an image of Jesus Christ’s image in his burial cloth of Turin. It is right and proper to include an image of his burial cloth in this excellent article regarding Jesus Christ. It will enhance its excellent quality by providing readers a glimpse of the face of Jesus. Thanks to Historyprofrd for his work. I do not have any opinion regarding the dispute regarding dates but Historyprofrd’s two proposals seem to be correct--remove dates altogether or place the two disputed dates. 4672mtem (talk) 12:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Lafem, 4672mtem, and Soidi, for your comments. Much appreciated indeed! :) I particularly appreciate Lafem's point that "Jesus' shroud image is famous all over the globe as his image. A Wikipedia article on Jesus will be vastly improved by its presence within the article." Yes, sir. To those who continue using ad hominem arguments, please let us focus on discussing this using reasoned argumentation vis-a-vis content policies. I respect your views but there is basis for inclusion of this image and both dates because we bring both "conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. [NPOV] requires that all majority- and significant-minority views must be presented fairly..." This is an image with conflicting perspectives. Either we show the two conflicting perspectives on dates fairly or as I said earlier, I am ok with none at all, but to prefer one date over the other is not NPOV, but imbalance. Historyprofrd (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, there are presented two different views. The two views should be named in the caption: It is the Roman Catholicism which finds the shroud venerable, and the rest of us who do not find it exceptional at all among other 14th century religious paintings. St.Trond (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I've always found it strange that no archaeological artifact connected with Jesus is shown here. Mohammad and Charlemagne are two cases where you have artifacts/archaeolocal sites found in their Wikipedia article. It's good that this lack is now going to be fixed. I wish more of these artifacts can be added. How about a picture of Jesus's birthplace? Christmas is an international event.

The shroud may be disputed however I don't believe its right to shy away from controversy. Just present the controvery and that's it. How about a caption like "1st century burial cloth or 14th century religious painting?". It is not only Roman Catholics who believe in the shroud, many protestants now believe it too, not to mention the loads of studies done by scientists. Ran9876 (talk) 03:23, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, how about putting it in the section describing his death, and labeling it: "A 13th century representation of a 1st century burial shroud." I would have no objection at all to that. A link to the article on the Shround of Turin will enable readers to learn more, including all points of view in a controversial debate. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:27, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Slrubenstein, your comments smack of a wily subterfuge to get what you have always wanted while appearing to concede. Your wily suggestion is a breach of NPOV nonetheless. You want to make it an established fact that the Shroud is only a 13th century representation. Your idea takes sides. The fact is both sides have bases, and the consensus of Historyprofrd, Rann9876, 4672mtem, St. Trond and myself is abide by NPOV: to present both. Lafem (talk) 11:51, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The authenticity of the shroud is still a fringe view. The age was calibrated by multiple teams of serious professionals, and that work has not been officially overturned. All that is available to the believers is that a tiny handful of people have proposed that the original teams all failed to do the job properly, and that the DATE MIGHT PERHAPS be wrong. There is no evidence that the date really is wrong, and if the date does turn out to be wrong there is no evidence that the true date is from the time of Jesus, and if the date actually is from the time of Jesus there is still no evidence that this is indeed an article that came from the tomb of Jesus. This is absolutely NOT a 50:50 argument. It is fascinating that people can argue that the smoke from the various fires may have affected the carbon-dating - even though smoke and skin-oils etc were carefully washed off first - but those same people do not consider that all that heat and smoke and incense and rough handling over the centuries may have affected the linen differently to linens which were safely contained in clay pots out in the desert for centuries. We certainly CANNOT use a caption that claims the shroud is an actual imprint of the face of Jesus. I am happy to say "An image on a 13th century cloth, believed by some to be an actual imprint of the face of Jesus." How about that? Wdford (talk) 11:55, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Wdford, Your idea continues to be non-NPOV. World Mysteries is totally independent and has this to say before all the recent debunking: the scientific community is divided over the shroud dates because -- with the exception of the carbon dating tests -- medical, artistic, forensic and botanical evidence favors the authenticity of the shroud of Turin as the burial cloth of Jesus. Now that scientists already changed their opinion on those radiocarbon tests, you have this: In 1988, carbon-14 dating was carried out on a fragment of the Shroud. The results date the fabric to between 1260 and 1390 A.D. The scientific community itself now questions these results, and more recent experimental studies have reopened the debate. [4] Historyprofrd is correct: you should not use your personal assertions. It's the sources, Mr. Wdford! Lafem (talk) 12:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Thanks to everyone. :) I like Ran9876's point. May I suggest a slight modification to what Ran9876 proposed: "Jesus' burial cloth (1st century) or religious painting (14th century)?"? Historyprofrd (talk) 12:45, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
• "World Mysteries" is not remotely a reliable source - in fact, they specialize in promoting fringe topics - from crop circles to Vedic age flying machines, UFOs and Atlantis. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:49, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Something fishy is going on. There are a number of sleeper accounts that recently chimed in on this (that may be related in other matters as well). To everyone, please observe WP:MEAT and WP:SOCK, and familiarize yourself with what constitutes editing abuse. Thank you. -Andrew c ^[talk] 14:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I couldn't agree with you more! Slrubenstein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Me too! Alrubenstein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, an excellent point Slrubenbuber | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, I disagree completelyh and object to the obvious code word, "fish."Slrubenjaminstein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Um WP:AGF he said fishy not fish and it is a perfectly valid expressiomn. And stick the point, he iss right! St. Agnostobiblestein | Talk 23:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Proposals for a caption

Would History or Lafem propose a precise caption for the image, to rival the already proposed caption, "Jesus after death, Shroud of Turin, radiocarbon-dated to c. 1300"? As long as they (?) only comment negatively on the latter proposal, we will get nowhere. Soidi (talk) 14:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

In view of the lack of response, I am moving this request down, so as to ensure it is not overlooked. Soidi (talk) 07:57, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Soidi, as I have said earlier, this is my preference, tweaking a bit what Ran9876 proposed: "Shroud of Turin: Jesus' burial cloth (1st c.) or religious painting (14th c.)?" Historyprofrd (talk) 08:14, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

No, that's a completely wrong dichotomy. There are many other alternatives than those two. If we want this image, it should be something like "The Shroud of Turin, attested since the 14th century, traditionally believed to show the face of Jesus after death" , or, to keep things simple, "The Shroud of Turin". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:06, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

"The Shroud of Turin", that was my original proposal. I agree with Schulz, for that is the simplest solution. Historyprofrd (talk) 09:29, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Either "The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century recreation of a 1st century burial shroud" (which is the mainstream view) or Stephen Schulz's first suggestion. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:40, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I prefer "The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century artefact believed by some to show the face of Jesus after death". Wdford (talk) 13:35, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

A. My first choice for the image

In case we are really talking about different things, we should perhaps first select the image to use. I think we should choose a style of caption similar to the style of the captions on the other images in the article. All the other captions indicate in the first place what is represented in the image. None of them gives first place to the canvas, wood, marble or other material that is the substratum of the image. For that reason I think it is unsuitable to begin with "The Shroud of Turin". For another reason, the caption "Shroud of Turin" would accompany rather an image of the whole of the Shroud, which, if legible, would be too big for placing in this article and which might well seem disproportionate in this article for other reasons too. If someone wants to see the full Shroud image, a wikilink will guide them. Soidi (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

We can call it the shroud of turin without showing the whole thing. It is importannt to include the name in order to have a link to the article; this is not done with other images because other images do not carry with them the same controversial claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:29, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Slr. Does anyone object to showing just the face? Soidi (talk) 19:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The controversial claims are regarding its decoration, not the shroud itself. If the shroud is presented as a possible relic, then it will be false. The shroud is considered venerable by the Archbishop of Turin while he accepts its medieval origin. Links may be arranged without using "Shroud of Turin" as shown here: Proposed caption:

Shroud of Turin, painting is a Catholic venerability [5], anonymous, 13th or 14th century. St.Trond (talk) 19:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I prefer the Image A, with just the face. I don't think we should use a caption with "Catholic venerability" in it - there might well be other Christians outside the Catholic Church who also venerate the shroud. I would still go with "The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century artefact believed by some to show the face of Jesus after death". Wdford (talk) 21:53, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

The shroud has been described in public as a venerability [6] by a Catholic Archbishop. That makes a difference from the majority view. St.Trond (talk) 06:40, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we can take it that Image A is preferred. I have therefore removed Image B. (Anyone who wishes to view it again can do so by looking up the versions of this Talk page between 14:18 on 17 October and now.)

What caption? The following are proposed:

A. Jesus after death, illustration on the Shroud of Turin (radiocarbon-dated to c. 1300)

Soidi's proposal, modified to take account of St Trond's alteration of the captions of the other images

B. Shroud of Turin: Jesus' burial cloth (1st c.) or religious painting (14th c.)

Historyprofrd's proposal

C. The Shroud of Turin, attested since the 14th century, traditionally believed to show the face of Jesus after death

Stephan Schulz's and Historyprofrd

D. The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century recreation of a 1st century burial shroud

Slrubinstein

E. The Shroud of Turin, a 13th century artefact believed by some to show the face of Jesus after death

Wdford

F. The Shroud of Turin

Historyprofrd and Stephan Schulz's

Have I omitted any concrete proposal?

Can we eliminate one or more of these proposals? Perhaps Historyprofrd, having given support to Proposal C, would now withdraw Proposal B. For my part, I think that Proposals D and E unnecessarily take an explicit position on the validity of the 1988 tests. What need do we have in this article to insist on their validity or their invalidity? Why not just state the fact of what the tests rightly or wrongly concluded, and leave judgement to the reader, with the help of wikilinks? Proposals A and C differ on the following points:

Proposal A is modelled on the other captions in the article and begins with a reference to an aspect of Jesus' life and death (or, if you insist, his legend), followed by an indication of the provenance of the image in question. Proposal C may be thought to present the image as an image of the Shroud of Turin, rather than an image of Jesus. (Proposals B, D and E do so more decidedly.)

Proposal A gives links to the two Wikipedia articles on the Shroud and on the 1988 tests. Proposal C, as it now stands, links only to the Shroud article (which may be quite enough). Soidi (talk) 21:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Soidi for taking time to sort these out. Just the face would be alright. I added option F: just plain Shroud of Turin. I agree with Soidi that Proposals D and E unnecessarily take a position on the validity of 1988 tests, and do not conform with Wikipedia policy. I suggest that they be stricken out. Proposal B can stay as I suppose we are not limited to one proposal as long as what we propose are within content policies. Historyprofrd (talk) 11:03, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Historyprofrd, do you mean you think you can veto choices? Nothing should be strucken out until there has been discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:10, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I find A and F better than the rest, since A and F contain only (in my opinion) sourced information. I prefer A as it is more informative than F. St.Trond (talk) 15:15, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

height

This article doesn't mention the height and weight of the savior jesus, could somebody please insert the information. South Bay (talk) 08:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

very... cute Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 08:39, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It's 4'7", and 28 stone, according to the rarely consulted Al-HarQum documents. Weight decreased monotonically before ascension. It's currently unknown if this affected mass, or weight only. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Per the Gospels (which we all know is the ultimate truth and free from all error) Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on a colt and a donkey. His weight must therefore have been considerable - 28 stone is thus quite believable. However to sit on two animals at once requires very long legs, so I cannot agree with the 4'7" - based on the evidence of the Gospels, I suspect his height was actually 7'4". Wdford (talk) 17:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh shaddap :P Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 20:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Could somebody 7'4" and 28 stones walk on water, I don't think so..South Bay (talk) 05:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Depends how deep the water was, and how big the feet were. I have seen birds and lizards that run on the surface of the water due to the size of their feet, and lizards can run up walls because their feet have a relatively large surface area. It also depends on how much Peter had to drink that afternoon. Wdford (talk) 07:26, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

You still have not answered my question?? South Bay (talk) 06:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

A 100,000 ton steel ship can float on water - its not the weight that counts. 03:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Based on the evidence of the gospels, the "last supper" was a big feast and therefore only a man of unusual size could handle all the food. He, therefore must of been similar or likable to George Costanza in height and dimension. South Bay (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2009 (UTC)