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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Peter I. Vardy (talk | contribs) at 18:30, 16 March 2012 (→Disambiguation link notification for March 16: delete - done). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
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Archive

Archives

1: 11 November 2006 - 28 May 2007
2: 30 May 2007 - 26 November 2007
3: 29 November 2007 - 30 January 2008
4: 30 January 2008 - 15 September 2008
5: 15 September 2008 - 13 January 2009
6: 14 January 2009 - 27 May 2009
7: 1 June 2009 - 10 August 2009
8: 11 August 2009 - 25 December 2009
9: 31 December 2009 - 4 April 2010
10: 6 April 2010 - 25 June 2010
11: 28 June 2010 - 31 July 2010
12: 2 August 2010 - 24 September 2010
13: 25 September 2010 - 20 December 2010
14: 20 December 2010 - 16 February 2011
15: 16 February 2011 — 15 April 2011
16: 15 April 2011 — 10 July 2011
17: 10 July 2011 — 17 September 2011

Tin tabernacles

There is a lovely pic of the PINK St Philip's Church, Hassall Green here but you know my opinion of uploading to the Commons :-) Pink isn't my favourite colour, but I like it!!--J3Mrs (talk) 16:28, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; I'll have a go at uploading it. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:31, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And Frodsham too, a bit more restrained I think, but I do like the more unusual colours.--J3Mrs (talk) 16:35, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Great finds! Hassall Green was already on Commons, so I've added it (and corrected the coords). Frodsham uploaded and added. I should really have gone myself to Frodsham, to take a photo, but don't meed to now. Good progress. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are some really nice photographs in the article now, I think I'd like a yellow one next!!! Thank you for doing that. We've been out and about a bit lately but the only corrugated iron has been railway sheds.--J3Mrs (talk) 17:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Last one and a website.--J3Mrs (talk) 17:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That was also on Commons. Added + the ref. I guess we'll find some more. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:00, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I do hope so. :-)--J3Mrs (talk) 19:15, 17 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus at List of castles in England

A barnstar for you!

The Special Barnstar
I cannot say enough positive things about your work on churches, country houses and villages. You represent everything that is fine about England at a time when its in a bad state! Keep up the great work Peter! ♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:43, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I made a start on Church of St Nonna, Altarnun. Could you add some trimmings?♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:00, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Added a bit. The info in the lead needs citations, and the history and architecture sections need work. Is there anything you can add re the present day? --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:55, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:45, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Prior Park

Hi, I was wondering if I could pick your expert knowledge/brains - even though its not a church? I've just put up an article on Prior Park and wondered if you had any sources which would help with the architecture section? We previously had an article on Prior Park Landscape Garden and one on Prior Park College but nothing specifically about the house. I've found a lot on the history but limited description of the architecture and wondered if you could help?— Rod talk 20:56, 29 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest you use the National Heritage List for England. This replaces Images of England and more; IoE is stuck in 2000 or thereabouts; the National List is updated daily (and the former grades A, B and C have been updated too). How about this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this? Should keep you busy for a while! Good luck. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks I'll take a look at those alt sources.— Rod talk 16:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Peer review/St Edern's Church, Bodedern/archive1

If you got the chance to look in at the peer review at some, I'd be very grateful. Suggestions always welcomed (and Malleus did say that you're the expert on churches, after all!) Regards, BencherliteTalk 15:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're too modest. Thanks for your suggestions; I've replied at my talk page, for a change, to keep any discussion together. Yours, BencherliteTalk 17:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Architects

Thank you for the information about Paley and Austin. I do not do much work on architectural articles but have been able to add details about the articles in that book which are about individual architects. I think this redirect E. H. Sedding is wrong as Edmund Harold Sedding was active 40 years after Edmund Sedding who died in 1868. I am not sure how it can be removed.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've written a stub on Edmund Harold Sedding and amended the redirect page. That should do it, I think.--Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you; I have added his burial to the Crantock church page.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 17:09, 16 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

E. H Sedding

Thanks for spotting and fixing my mistake with E. H. Sedding, much appreciated. DuncanHill (talk) 12:45, 21 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for St George's Church, Heaviley

The DYK project (nominate) 00:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

New Page Patrol survey

New page patrol – Survey Invitation

Hello Peter I. Vardy! The WMF is currently developing new tools to make new page patrolling much easier. Whether you  have patrolled many pages or only a few, we now need to  know about your experience. The survey takes only 6 minutes, and the information you provide will not be shared with third parties other than to assist us in analyzing the results of the survey; the WMF will not use the information to identify you.

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Please click HERE to take part.
Many thanks in advance for providing this essential feedback.

You are receiving this invitation because you  have patrolled new pages. For more information, please see NPP Survey. Global message delivery 12:46, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

DYK for St Paul's Church, Witherslack

Thank you Victuallers (talk) 00:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oddfellows' Hall, Chester

Hello! Your submission of Oddfellows' Hall, Chester at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! , cheers, Huldra (talk) 19:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

Hi, given that you are adding St. Michael's Churches, I thought I would let you know that just a few days ago, by chance, I figured out how it all started: at the Michaelion. I just finished it - will DYK it in a few days. History2007 (talk) 14:44, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for letting me know; an interesting article. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, there is a gallery here and one here and they do not even have a UK section, in case you want to add your UK images there to make those well rounded. Cheers. History2007 (talk) 15:36, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's an idea; but it will have to wait until I have completed my current projects. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:49, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, the churches are not going anywhere, unless of course Raffaello Follieri has an English cousin and sells them all before you get to it.... History2007 (talk) 16:34, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Oddfellows' Hall, Chester

PanydThe muffin is not subtle 00:02, 18 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Chester College Chapel

PanydThe muffin is not subtle 08:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Woodbank

Started Woodbank (house). Know anything about it? I suspect its the Vernon Park Museum now? There's also a Woodbank in Derbyshire. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mmm looking on google maps it could be what is now a nursery? Where did you get this name from?♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:05, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I've not had time to do this (working in a sandbox on a better list of the works of Thomas Harrison). Suggest a different title; on a quick Google search I have found houses called Woodbank in Co. Armagh, Aberdeen, and Surrey (and that's on the first page). Suggest Woodbank, Stockport as the title. The best online ref is here in the National Heritage List. Further info in Pevsner. This shows that it is NOT Vernon Park, it is not in Turncroft Lane (it's in Woodbank Park), and it's no longer a museum (or a country house). --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:15, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, its to the east of Vernon, could be what is now the nursery. Nope its not the nursery looked at the source.Thanks for that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's at 53°24′36″N 2°07′52″W / 53.41001°N 2.13112°W / 53.41001; -2.13112. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:40, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it is now the nursery as I had thought then.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:43, 21 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A tin tabernacle...

...has just been listed by English Heritage! I was doing my usual trawl of the new website looking for newly listed stuff, and came across St Paul's Church at Strines near New Mills on the GM/Derbyshire border. Sounds like quite an interesting building. Tin tabernacles are very thin on the ground down here in Sussex; one was demolished a couple of years ago at a place called Vine's Cross, causing a bit of an outrage. Anyway, hope all is well with you; I'm still trying to find a comprehensive source for an expansion of St Mary's Church, Westham. I think Eastbourne Library has a book on it, so next time I'm over there...! Likewise for the other two Paley & Austin restorations down that way. Cheers, Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 13:39, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that interesting news; it's unusual for a tin tabernacle to be listed. I've added a bit about it to the article. I'm working mainly at present on Edmund Sharpe, the creator of the Paley, Austin etc practice, having received a very detailed biography on CD. Also a major work on the whole practice is to be published within the next few months. Also getting interested in Thomas Harrison (architect) who designed a lot of bridges and Neoclassical buildings in Lancaster, Chester, and Shropshire. Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Liverpool Collegiate

Hello Peter,

I'm researching Liverpool Collegiate School for a new Wiki page and found the information about Rushworth and Dreaper supplying the new organ to the Liverpool Collegiate SCHOOL in 1913. The Liverpool Collegiate Institution became the Liverpool Collegiate School (the correct name from 1908 to 1985 and in its new incarnation to the present), a change which was cemented by the 1908 purchase of the Shaw Street building by the newly formed Local Education Authority. The 'Institution' tag had been dropped by 1913 replaced by 'School'.

I'd leave the link to the 'Institution' page for now, but it would be better if it linked to the new page 'Liverpool Collegiate School' when it's up on Wiki, hopefully very soon.

Keith Bates (talk) 15:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Keith. Sorry I was trying to be "helpful"" by making a red link go blue! I did not realise you were working on this. I guess you will move the "...Institution" title to "...School" sooner or later. The article certainly needs some improvements, especially citations. Good luck. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:48, 28 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Euxton C of E Church

Peter, as a church specialist could you have a look at this article. I think the name is wrong and it should be moved but I'm surprised that it doesn't appear to be dedicated to a saint and moving it to Euxton parish church might not be the best answer. If it isn't dedicated to a saint is this unusual in churches of this age? NtheP (talk) 10:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the title should be Euxton Parish Church. According to A Church Near You, the official CoE website, it does not have a dedication (this is not usual, but a dedication is not mandatory). But what worries me most about the article is that its contents are almost completely cut and paste from the sources (although some good work has been done in finding the sources). At first I thought that the creator must be a newbie. Although his/her first contributions were in 2007, they have been sparse, and he/she is clearly inexperienced and I guess could do with some help (don't have time myself). What do you think? --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 11:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I noticed this article this morning and was planning on doing a little cleanup later. As a listed church, it's probably notable, but I'm not 100% surprised the article is a copy/paste. I'll try to sort it out a bit later today if no one else has got to it. --BelovedFreak 12:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for for your intervention. It looks an interesting church, the sources are there, and it certainly merits an article. Good luck. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:33, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, both. NtheP (talk) 16:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Barclays Bank, York

Thanks for the note - bizarre! I did try looking at Wikipedia:Images and some linked articles but couldn't find anything about what to do with sideways photos ("rotating images" seems to be something different). There's a Category:Images for cleanup and also one with the same name on Commons, but perhaps you have a guru who knows more about these things than I do. I hope you agree that the sideways photo is better than the other one, which (to my mind) has too much extra clutter.

You might be interested in Talk:York#York_Union_Banking_Company (or you may not!). Also, the bank's name has never had an apostrophe - see Barclays. Best. --GuillaumeTell 18:34, 9 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Skerton Bridge

Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for List of works by Thomas Harrison

Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

List of works by Thomas Harrison

Yes, I agree, thanks - now I know the protocols for next time Manytexts (talk) 03:23, 14 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

St John's Church, Gateshead Fell

This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a search with the contents of St John's Church, Gateshead Fell, and it appears to be very similar to another Wikipedia page: St John's Church, Gateshead Fell. It is possible that you have accidentally duplicated contents, or made an error while creating the page— you might want to look at the pages and see if that is the case. If you are intentionally trying to rename an article, please see Help:Moving a page for instructions on how to do this without copying and pasting. If you are trying to move or copy content from one article to a different one, please see Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia and be sure you have acknowledged the duplication of material in an edit summary to preserve attribution history.

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TOC template in Historic Chapels Trust‎

Thanks - I didn't know about the template. It's certainly a better place to put the TOC and the template is a better way of putting it there. --Northernhenge (talk) 11:59, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I only discovered it this morning when I was messing about, wondering what would be the best compromise. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:01, 17 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for All Saints' Church, Hertford

Orlady (talk) 16:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC) 08:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for St Silas' Church, Blackburn

Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:04, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

St James' Church, Melsonby

The Yorkshire Rose
WikiProject Yorkshire
Award of Merit
for valued contributions to Yorkshire articles on Wikipedia
For your work on St James' Church, Melsonby Farrtj (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for St Philip's Church, Salford

Orlady (talk) 08:02, 21 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

John Coates Carter

I have knocked up an article for the under-appreciated architect John Coates Carter. It may be that he designed a church or two that have fallen under your notice. I have already linked St Teilos in Llandorey, but there may be others. Thanks, FruitMonkey (talk) 22:34, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the article and for letting me know about it. I don't recall JCC cropping up in any of the articles I have written; I've done very little on Arts and Craft style buildings. But I'll keep him in mind. Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:28, 30 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Priory Church of St Mary, Monmouth

Hello Peter, I saw your excellent article on St John the Baptist's Church, Llanrothal, to which I have added an image (and which I hope is a minor improvement). I wonder would you be able, and/or interested, in having a go at an article for this church in Monmouth? You can see a little discussion at Talk:Monmouth if you are interested. Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the kind comment. I am going to decline your request for two reasons. First, I am involved in a number of other projects, and don't really have the time at present. Secondly, I do not have much access to Welsh sources for such an article. I'm sure you could find someone involved with Welsh matters who could do the job! Best wishes. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 13:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, no worries. Thanks for your rapid reply. (I think we need an article for Llanrothal village itself, so maybe I'll try that one!) Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:15, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
St Mary's Priory Church, Monmouth has now been created, and even been improved a bit. But we would welcome your casting an expert eye over it, if ever you have a moment. Also, by the way, I have tweaked the early history of St Nicholas' Church, Wrea Green a little, using a different source. Am still searching for a good ref for the 2007 extension there. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:14, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's much better than I would have done it! And I used to run past St Nicholas in great agony when we were forced to do "cross country running" from Kirkham Grammar School when it was too frosty to engage in rugby. Happy (?} memories. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 18:40, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Haha. I would have thought that "The Grapes" looks a lot cosier to most people running past! But I'm sure (just like my article conrribution) that it's not any better at all. In fact it's a shame that KGS doesn't have its own article, that could be linked out from the Kirkham article. I'm sure it's worthy of one. Might be a good project for some ICT student there?! Martinevans123 (talk) 18:53, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But it does, and it's here, but it needs a lot of work to improve it. As you say, a good project for someone ... Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 18:58, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes, so it does. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:01, 14 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of miscellaneous works by G. E. Street

Hello, Peter I. Vardy, and thank you for your contributions!

Some text in an article that you worked on List of miscellaneous works by G. E. Street, appears to be directly copied from another Wikipedia article, List of domestic buildings by G. E. Street. Please take a minute to double-check that you've properly attributed the source text in your edit summary.

It's entirely possible that this bot made a mistake, so please feel free to remove this notice and the tag it placed on List of miscellaneous works by G. E. Street at any time.Template:Z128 CorenSearchBot (talk) 17:23, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tag removed by me, clearly a false positive. Regards, BencherliteTalk 17:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Should also have said what a lovely group of lists you've got there! Your work-rate (and its quality, of course) is very impressive! BencherliteTalk 20:01, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment. I should really settle down to writing articles rather than compiling these lists, but I have become fascinated by the amount of output and the variety of works of those Victorian architects. And it's better than watching TV!. Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Template: Churches in Lancashire

Hi Peter,

As a distraction from Scheduled Monuments I've been "improving" a couple of Lancashire templates. While you may have noticed that I've made a couple of tweaks to the live template, I've made a copy of it in an attempt to incorporate the colour scheme used in Template:Infobox historic site. While it seemed a good idea, I'm struggling to achieve a look that I'm happy with. Any suggestions, or should I give up? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 12:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I must say I'm not a great fan of these templates, but applaud you for the work you have done by incorporating the "official" colours of the listing grades. However I note that Grade I has a coloured border, while the others are solidly filled with colour. IMO they should be consistent, one way or the other. (My choice would be for black text on a solidly coloured background (as the colours were originally used).) No strong feelings, really. Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 16:26, 22 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about that? Also as I've been pondering one for the scheduled monuments and potentially listed houses why are you not a fan, if I might ask? --Trappedinburnley (talk) 19:08, 23 January 2012 (UTC) PS the Monuments list is starting to take shape, any help or suggestions you could offer would be greatly appreciated.[reply]
I suppose it's a blind spot! The template looks much better IMO. And the scheduled monuments list is coming on well; keep at it. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hindsford

Hello Peter, just wanted to say how pleased I was to find an addition to Hindsford when I got back from my day out yesterday. J3Mrs (talk) 10:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, hope it's OK. Please improve it if you can (I "stole" a reference from the Hindsford article.) It's part of my project to write articles on all the churches built or restored by the Sharp/Paley/Austin architects of Lancaster; amazingly prolific over such a long period of time. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:59, 26 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

St John's Church, Gateshead Fell

Peter, sorry to be a pedant, but I came across your article on St John's Church and notice that you have listed it as being in Low Fell. It isn't- the Church is very much part of Low Fell's neighbour, Sheriff Hill (see here [1]) Meetthefeebles (talk) 18:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not a pedant at all, we need accuracy! Please feel free to correct it (and to improve the article}. As a Cestrian I am (obviously) ignorant of the geography of the area. Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Saint James Church, Barry St, Oldham

Dear Peter. Whilst viewing this page I noticed a number of errors. The website url is no longer live, so should be removed. This article states that the church was built between 1827 and 1828 with a completion date of 1883. The correct dates are ground breaking in 1827 and a completion date in 1829, the church opened on 19th Sept 1829. The work that took place in 1883 (we have it in our records as 1887) was an addition to an already completed church, in 1829. I hardly think that (some 54 years later) people would have decided to complete the building of the church. The church is described in your article as Gothic Revival, it should be Early Gothic Revival. You have the original building costs correct, but our church could not be built again at a cost of £700,000, considering it is insured for a rebuild cost in todays world at £7 million. The article states that the clock face has been removed, it was restored in 2001.

I was recently reading (from our church safe) an abstract of the land deeds that the Bower sisters had to provide to prove that that they were the owners of the land that the church stands on, and that they sold it to the church. There is a romanticised view that they donated the land for the building of a church, the land was sold by them, not donated. All here in our safe, dating back to 1729. Jacob Ogden was the original owner of the land, and then a timeline is given until the Bower Sisters acquired the land and sold it.

I tend to trust what is wriiten on Wikipedia as the law, a totally trusted source - not to be disputed. From what I've read about what has been written about my church, I think I will take what Wikipedia reveals with a pinch of salt. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.1.225.172 (talk) 01:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your message; I appreciate your comments. But it is not a good idea to rely on Wikipedia as a "the law, a totally trusted source", and its contents SHOULD, where appropriate, be disputed. Wikipedia contains errors. I understand that there are errors in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, and I know that there are errors in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. And these are written by carefully chosen experts. Wikipedia is an encylopaedia "that anyone can edit". Some of the contributors are experts, but most are interested amateurs who are anxious to make information more widely and freely available. To provide some safeguard against errors, it is required that all contributions should be properly referenced, preferably with inline citations, to reliable sources. These sources include articles in peer-reviewed journals, books published by acknowledged publishers, etc. Original research is not allowed (and this includes such things as "I have seen it so I know it"). It has to be possible for the reader to be able to check the information in Wikipedia against these published sources to confirm that it is accurate.
So where does it leave this article? What is written is taken from sources generally agreed to be authoritative and reliable: Port's book is the standard publication on Commissioners' churches, the Buildings of England series (commonly known as "Pevsner") is an acknowledged source of general architectural information, and the National Heritage List for England is prepared and published by English Heritage, a respected source. I am not saying that there are no errors in these sources; what I am saying is that these are the best sources available to me, and on which I based my contribution. It may well be that there are other and better sources, but I am not aware of them, and simply did the best I could with what is available to me.
Looking in detail at the sources, there are problems for the Wikipedia editor. The Buildings of England (Pevsner) book and Port both say the church was built in 1827–28, but the National Heritage List for England (NHL) says 1835! Both Pevsner and the NHL say that the apse was added in 1883; so in in taking these dates I took the "majority" view, andfor the earlier date, the one that seemed to fit better with the dates of the Commissioner's first round of grants. The difference between Gothic Revival and early Gothic Revival is surely pedantic; and the first embraces the second. The comparative prices are not there to provide an estimate of current replacement costs, but rather to give the reader a general idea of the cash values "then and now", or as the source says, for "measuring worth".
Regarding the "date of completion", this is arguable. One could say that the church as it is now, with its apse, was not finally completed until 1883 (or 1887), or one could say that the main part of the church was completed in 1828 (or 1829) and that the apse was just a later addition. As for the clock face, you will appreciate that it is difficult from the sources available to keep up with all the changes that have and can be made. The NHL says that it had been removed, but that was written, I think at the time of listing, in 1993. Pevsner, published in 2004 is vague; it refers just to a "prominent clock surround".
So what can we do to ensure the up-to-date accuracy of the article? Well, we need some reliable PUBLISHED material, something in a book or in an article in a peer-reviewed journal. Or we might manage with a published history just of the church itself, either in pamphlet form or, even better, on a church website (a pity there is not one).
To get more information on some of the points I have raised you might like to read some or all of the following (click on the links): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7. Best wishes. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of church restorations and alterations by G. E. Street

Hi Peter – just seen this one. Nice work as ever. I believe he did some work just before his death on St Mary's Church at Rye as well; I have a few books I can check for this. I think some of his proposed work was carried out by his son after his death; I'm not sure who did what, so I'll do some research.

On another note: apparently some recent research suggests that G.E.S. has been incorrectly credited with designing St Luke's Church in Milland. English Heritage ([2]) gives it to G.E.S., but by the time of Robert Elleray's Victorian Churches of Sussex it becomes "G.E. Street (?)". Then according to the Sussex Parish Churches website, a piece was published in The Victorian in 2002 suggesting that the architect was in fact one W.C. Street, who is unrelated. He also designed the church at Wick, near Littlehampton. I haven't read the piece, so some more investigation would be needed. Pevsner moans that it is "nasty and fussy", but unfortunately doesn't offer any names! None of my other Sussex church books do, either. I'll keep it on my list of things to look into! Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 22:48, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

St Mary's in Rye is included in Jenkins' England's Thousand Best Churches. He does not mention Street by name but says that "no rebuilding was as drastic as that of the Victorians." The clock there, he says, has a 16th Century mechanism that is "one of tbe oldest working in England"; also, apparently, there is a Burne-Jones in the North Aisle. (Jenkins, Simon (1999), England's Thousand Best Churches, London, Pengin Books, ISBN 978-0-141-03930-5). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:23, 8 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks to you both for your comments. As WP editors we are reliant on the sources available to us (or even "victims" of them — see the previous section; to which I have not yet had the courtesy of a reply!). I guess we can only do the best we can with what we have, hope that other editors with other sources can improve matters, correct errors when they are found, and maybe include notes where attributions are questionable. I intend to do the last with Milland, and will add a footnote.
To change the subject, how are you finding the search facility on the National List? I have read some critical (even angry) comments about it. I relied greatly on it for the Street lists, assuming I had a complete collection, getting 459 "hits" (including other Streets, of course). I then had a go at Waterhouse, and got just 80 hits - a complete nonsense. Eventually I found more buildings containing "Waterhouse" within the text but not discovered, so the search facility is obviously not reliable. The List is kept up-to-date, a clear improvement on Images, but the descriptions vary from excellent to awful; the bad ones should be improved. Cadw do a much better job in this respect, but I find their search facility near-impossible to use. Best wishes to both. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On the NHLE ... searching by location is great, but searching by name is painful. So far I have only had to do so once, when I was writing Clayton & Black (prolific Brighton architects) and wanted to see if they had done any listed works outside the city, and also find the descriptions for each of their listed buildings in the city. What a hassle it was! I was getting false positives (it was finding all the "Black"s and all the "Clayton"s; searching for "Clayton & Black" did not seem to be possible), and some of their buildings were not coming up at all. Luckily I could search for them by building name. Anyway, and in relation to another of your points, I then discovered that one of their buildings was missing ... it turned out that the listing description attributed it to a completely different architect, and got the year wrong! (Confusingly, there used to be two Natwest banks on the same street in Brighton, both of which were listed; Godfrey Pinkerton did one, and Clayton & Black did the other. They attributed Clayton & Black's to Pinkerton, and did not offer any name for Pinkerton's!) To be fair, I followed their procedure for notifying errors, and they corrected the listing within 3 days.
In terms of searching: in my job I work extensively with databases and extracting data from them. Based on how the listing details pages are set up, it looks like the search function is geared to finding data in the summary fields they have at the top of each listing: "Name", "List entry number", "County", "District", "District Type", "Parish", "Grade", "Date first listed" and "Date of most recent amendment". It seems to work very well when searching these. This suggests each of these bits of data is held as a separate field in the database, whereas everything else is just in a single "Details" field – which makes it unreliable to search. What they should do is add an "Architect" field, populate it where the architect is known and leave it blank otherwise, and display it in the "List Entry Summary" section. Then we could search properly, using full names, surnames, combinations of names etc. Maybe they will make an enhancement in the future!
Assuming you have been working on Alfred Waterhouse, he did the original Hove Town Hall in 1882, which sadly burnt down in 1966. It's on my "to-do" list of Brighton and Hove articles to write. Quite a pleasant building, by all accounts. Now there is a Brutalist replacement, which is admittedly very nice inside! Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 13:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've searched a few databases but I hate searching that site. I thought I would go mad when I tried to find Manchester Town Hall. J3Mrs (talk) 14:52, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Back to Rye: Sussex Parish Churches says that "A E Street in 1882-83 restored the nave, previously disfigured by galleries (3 p514), to designs by his late father, G. E. Street (CDK 1883 pt 2 p164 and BN 44 p647), who had examined the church in 1877 (WSRO Ep II/27/67) and advised restoring it in sections, though only the nave was done." (Also, the East Sussex Shell Guide (by W. S. Mitchell) says (p. 162) that the clerestory was rebuilt in 1882 but doesn't say by whom). Presumably the fact that the designs were by G.E.S. qualifies them for your list even though they were realised after his death. --GuillaumeTell 18:49, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Phew! I may leave this to the Sussex expert! --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 19:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On the naming of churches

Can I ask your advice on the naming convention for churches? I'm working on listed buildings in Monmouthshire. Where this involves creating a new church page, would you suggest I go for St Mary's Church, Chepstow or Church of St John, Llandenny, i.e. "Church of ..." or "St XXX Church"? It may not matter much either way, but if I'm starting new articles I think I should follow convention, if there is one. Thanks and regards. KJP1 (talk) 08:41, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your query. There is certainly no rule, and I don't think there is a convention as such. Certainly the most used form is "St X's Church"; see St. Peter's Church and St. John's Church (you will note that the Americans tend to put a period after "St", ie "St. X's Church", whereas the Brits don't; also the Somerset church titles tend to be "Church of ..."). In general WP prefers the most common usage: I say "I go to St X's Church", rather than "I go to the Church of St X". It's really up to you. I normally use "St X's Church" unless this form of title does not make sense, for example in the case of Church of St John Maddermarket, its usual title, Maddermarket reflecting the location (there will always be exceptions). So I suggest you please yourself! Best wishes. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:09, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Listed buildings in Wales

"I've added a number of Grade I buildings in Monmouthshire to the list and also put in those that I know of which are Grade I listed but don't have articles. In a few cases, I've put duplicate queries against them. I appreciate that these shouldn't really be in the article but would be grateful for advice on whether they do represent one building or two and ask for forbearance in pursuit of a comprehensive list. KJP1 (talk) 21:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

The Church of St David, Llantrisant (BLBO) is St David's Church, Llangeview which already has an article by the indefatigable Peter I. Vardy. One duplicate off the list. KJP1 (talk) 21:59, 12 February 2012 (UTC) And the last two clarified."

Your work really is impressive. The sustained, comprehensive, high quality contributions are a, sometimes embarrassing, inspiration to us "stubbers". I'd give you a star if you needed another, and if I knew how. KJP1 (talk) 22:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your message; I don't need stars and things — your comments are sufficient! Actually I only stray into Wales when Welsh buildings are part of something else I am doing, like redundant churches, or buildings by John Douglas or other architects in whom I interested. And I do have difficulty in using the Cadw website. But there's plenty to do in England! Every power to you and to Wales! --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 22:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Paley & Austin

Just spotted that they've had one of their few unlisted churches listed! St Margaret's Church, Burnage was given Grade II status last week. Some useful general info in the listing details (I'm glad they write much more extensive descriptions than they used to!). No luck finding a suitably licenced image after a quick look this morning, but I've made the necessary changes to the article and the list. Cheers, Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 08:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for spotting that and for your amendments. It's good to see a detailed description; I think these are now based on the report that now has to be produced before a building is accepted for listing (I've had some experience of this in making personal applications for listing of buildings in Runcorn — one success, two failures). I'll have to expand the text ... one day! Do you know of any way that we can keep up with new listings, apart from just spotting them by chance? Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 09:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can't think of any systematic way to do it, unfortunately. What I have been doing for the last few months is checking the website once a day for new entries: doing it regularly makes it easy to remember what was there last time and what is new! Then I scan down the list looking for anything interesting: I look at all churches, wherever they are, and any new listing in Sussex. (To do this, I select "Designation date" under the "Advanced search" option, then select the current month and year. This also captures any updated listings – where buildings have been upgraded or new descriptions added, which is quite useful.) Doing it so regularly means I shouldn't miss anything, hopefully! Interesting to hear about your submissions for listed status: I have often wondered how to go about doing that, as there are a few buildings down my way that I feel could be listable. What did you have to do, and what were your experiences of the process? Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 13:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it sounds tedious. To make an application for listing go to this. My experiences: it takes a very long time; they are meticulous (and pleasant when you chase what's happening); and my three outcomes were pretty much what I expected. You might also like to have a read of this. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:27, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edmund Sharpe

The article is of course great, so I'm looking at it as I would an FAC nomination, which is what I think you want. It's really important to get the lead nice and slick I think, so that's where I've started:

Lead
  • "During this time he was also involved in building and designing railways in Northwest England". What does "involved in" mean? It's a pretty floppy phrase that could really mean anything. And I see that it's used three times in the lead, which is probably at least one time too many.
  • "He returned to Lancaster in 1866, where he designed his last church, St Paul, Scotforth." Isn't it more relevant that St Paul is in Lancaster rather than where Sharpe was when he designed it?
  • "While working as an architect in Lancaster, Sharpe was also involved in civic affairs." As Sharpe left Lancaster in 1856 but returned in 1866 it isn't clear what the chronology is here.
Early life
  • "Edmund later continued his education at Greenwich, and became its head boy." Greenwich isn't a school, so how could he become its head boy? And later than what?
  • "The second paragraph begins by calling him Edmund, but switches to Sharpe halfway through.
  • "Subsequently he graduated B.A. in 1833 ...". It's not all clear by now who "he" is referring to.
Personal and family life
  • "The seven years he spent there were later described as 'perhaps the happiest years of his life'". By whom?
  • "A plaque to his memory was also placed in the chancel of St Paul's, next to that of his wife." Why "also"? There's been no mention of any other plaque.
Other interests
  • "During his early life, Sharpe developed interests in cricket and in rowing, which he was later to continue." The lead says cricket and archery, doesn't mention rowing. What does "developed interests in" mean? Financial interests? And what did he "later continue", as you can't "later continue" an interest? Either you continue it or you don't.
Appraisal
  • "There can be no such thing as a "typical" Sharpe church". Why "can be no such thing", as opposed to "is no such thing"?
  • "As an architectural historian, Hughes considers Sharpe to be 'in the top rank'"". It's not entirely clear who is being described as the architectural historian; the way it's written it looks like it's Hughes.
  • "... his planning of railways in northwest England". It was capitalised as "Northwest England" in the lead.
  • "Sharpe was considered to be the leading authority in England on Cistercian abbeys ...". Such statements almost always provoke the question "by whom"?

Malleus Fatuorum 22:14, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lancaster practice
  • I'm not sure of the relevance of the last two sentences of the final paragraph.
Churches
  • "The resulting churches have been called Commissioners' churches, and were built to provide places of worship in newly populated areas; and six of Sharpe's churches were designed for this purpose: St John, Dukinfield, St George, Stalybridge, St John the Baptist, Bretherton, St Paul, Farington, St Catharine, Scholes (near Wigan), and Holy Trinity, Blackburn." I'm not quite following this; if the Commission's brief was to provide places of worship in newly populated areas then why do we need to be told that six of Sharpe's churches were designed for that purpose? Does it really mean that he designed six churches for the Commission?
  • "The earliest of these were based loosely on the Early English style ...". The earliest of what? The earliest of the Commissioner's churches, or the earliest of them in the Gothic Revival style?
  • "Between 1835 and 1842 Sharpe designed some 30 new churches in Lancashire and Cheshire ...". It's likely that someone at FAC will complain about that "some". Does it mean "about" here?
  • "In 1843 Sharpe was able to fulfil his promise to build a church for the Earl of Derby, and St Mary, Knowsley, was completed and consecrated the following year." Is St Mary the church built for the Earl of Derby? It's not obvious the way that's written.
  • "In the early 1840s Sharpe was invited by John Fletcher, his future brother-in-law, to build a church near his home in Little Bolton." Near whose home? Sharpe's or Fletcher's?
  • "As terracotta is commonly used to make plant pots and the like, Sharpe himself called this church, and its two successors, 'the Pot churches'". They were called "pot" churches in the lead, no capitalisation.
  • "The advantages of terracotta were its cheapness, its sturdiness as a building material, and the fact that it can be moulded into almost any shape." The mixed tenses are awkward there: "were its cheapness", but "can be". Might "could be" be better? Or is terracotta still cheap and sturdy?
Other structures
  • "... the National School for boys in St Leonard's Gate". Surely that must be the "National School for Boys"?
Architectural historian
  • "... the former characterised by the exclusive use of the 'circular arch', and the latter by the use of the 'pointed arch'". Why are "circular arch" and "pointed arch" in quotes?
Abroad
  • "Sharpe's line had two flat rails, with a third grooved rail between them, along which ran a wheel allowing the tram to be steered; it could also be raised to permit the tram to deviate from the track to pass around obstacles, or it could come to the pavement." What could come to the pavement? The wheel or the tram?
  • "In August 1863 Sharpe had been granted the concession for building a railway line in southern France ...". Why "had been" rather than "was"?

I think that's it you'll no doubt be pleased to here. Let me know when you nominate at FAC and I'll watchlist it, in case there are any more commas need moving. Malleus Fatuorum 01:54, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oops!

I mucked up a bit on List of church restorations and alterations by Anthony Salvin; Pevsner said the whole of the 1859 restoration was by Henry Woodyer, but it looks like he only did part of it and Salvin did work in 1859 and 1881. I should have checked first! Never mind; I think 1859; 1881 in the date field will be the best solution. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 21:57, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We are limited (and sometimes confused) by what the sources say! But let me take this opportunity to say how impressed I am by the quality of your church articles. I guess you have much better sources than I have managed to find for Cheshire. My articles are in comparison mere minnows, but at least they are a start than can be built upon in due course.
Incidentally, I have asked EH about the provision of information about new listings, changes in grading etc. They say it is not available at present, but they are hoping to provide something of this sort in the future. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 12:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think Pevsner made a mistake. Rare, but not unknown in the Sussex volume! I'm lucky in that there are a lot of good-quality sources for Sussex churches ... for a typical medieval church I might have anything up to about 15 "standard" books to check, plus the Victoria County History, the listing info and sometimes whole books on the history of the church. Also, I'm told that the Sussex Archaeological Collections (journals of the S.A. Society, with literally thousands of long and short articles on churches over the last 150+ years) are the leading examples of county-specific local and archaeological history publications. All the reference libraries round here hold them; my photocopying bills are sometimes large!! Interesting info on the EH guidance; it would be very useful indeed to have something official published, not least because info could potentially be incorporated into articles when discussing the importance of a particular church. Cheers, Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 08:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Precious

treasures of English churches
Thank you for unveiling the hidden treasures of English churches with amazing consistency, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:01, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! Actually we were fortunate to get instructions from the Director of Music at Salisbury Cathedral IN the cathedral, "If ye love me", memorable! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:47, 14 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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