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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 67.41.200.185 (talk) at 01:36, 21 December 2012 (→Wikipedia doesn't need your money - so why does it keep pestering you?: oops wrong graph). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


(Manual archive list)

Continued: civility and team spirit

Civility I asked some candidates for arbitrator the following question: how do you feel about applying the principles that we use for BLPs (Biographies of living persons) also to editors: "a high degree of sensitivity", "attributed to a reliable, published source", "written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy", "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered"?

Team spirit I like to see in the Main page's (frequently discredited) DYK section 1950s American automobile culture, the result of admirable teamwork begun here (where some may not exactly expect civility) ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great collaboration from great editors. Something we should all look at and see the true sprit of Wikipedia.--Amadscientist (talk) 05:27, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now archived, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I enjoy the collaboration on my proposal of a new infobox template for a rather complex topic, to be considered, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I joined a project now that applies the principles summarised above, Editor Retention. I feel that we are losing the best. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to encourage Jimbo and all editors who read this to join the Editor retention project! Well worth the effort and we can use the help there...as well as new volunteers at Wikipedia:Dispute Resolution Noticeboard!--Amadscientist (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My personal efforts started when BarkingMoon (talk · contribs) left. I didn't get far, some people still don't believe that he even exists. I was more successful with Khazar2, Tim riley and Dr. Blofeld, some pillars of Wikipedia ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Discontinued: I thank Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) for living (not speaking) civility, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since Wikipedia itself isn't a reliable source, applying BLP principles to editors would mean that we could no longer draw conclusions based on an editor's Wikipedia editing. Moreover, even if Wikipedia was considered a reliable source, it would still be WP:SYNTH to combine several edits by an editor and decide that the editor is being disruptive. We'd have to find a source stating that the editor is disruptive before we could state that ourselves.

Currently this is permissible because BLP states that "Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space, some leeway is permitted to allow the handling of administrative issues by the community". Your proposal would end that. Ken Arromdee (talk) 15:36, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I can follow. I don't talk about the so-called disruption. I talk about saying something about an editor without sources for it, without saying it's POV not facts, without regard to how it harms him, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Being Canadian is notable, but not being Jewish

Howie Mandel is Jewish, yet the article mentions alot about him being Canadian and one line mentions that his family is of Jewish descent. But yet he attended Hebrew School in Canada, and therefore there is more than his "family is of Jewish descent", obviously his family (and him at least as a child) were actually observant. I understand if some people dont like to classify Jews as anything but religion, but why is Canadian more notable? Plenty of sources talk about Howie being Jewish, isnt that all that matters? Lots of articles fail to mention a Jewish connection even though plenty of sources mention the Jewish connection, if sources are found that talk about Jewishness of a person or theme then shouldnt that be mentioned instead of simply a consensus that Jewishness isnt encyclopedic, I thought sources trump !rules in Wikipedia.97.85.211.124 (talk) 04:04, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't an ethnoreligious database. Canadian citizenship is a matter of legal status. 'Jewishness' isn't. If there are good grounds for discussing Mandel's Jewish heritage, in relation to his notability, I suggest you raise it on the article talk page - but 'he is Jewish', even if sourced, isn't in itself necessarily particularly relevant to an article otherwise. It is also worth remembering that 'Jewishness' is a highly contested issue - and it isn't up to Wikipedia to decide who is or isn't a Jew. Does Mandel himself consider his Jewish roots relevant to his career? If he does (and we have the sources to verify this), it may well merit further discussion in the article. Otherwise, there seem to be no obvious grounds to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We go by reliable sources. Furthermore a biography is more than that which is strictly relevant to notability. The reader understandably wants to know peripheral information too. Bus stop (talk) 06:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you mean "anything that is in a source, we include", we definitely do *not* "go by reliable sources". Of course, we do use reliable sources, but the fact that something is in a reliable source doesn't automatically mean we can use it. Ken Arromdee (talk) 01:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That is absolutely correct, Ken Arromdee. In support of that, we find in policy: "As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. To provide encyclopedic value, data should be put in context with explanations referenced to independent sources."[1] Bus stop (talk) 03:21, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Camelbinky has asked this same question three times on this page alone, including at /Archive 79#Should we say someone is gay, Jewish, African-American, Australian, or Antarctican? in 2011, and at /Archive 109#Is there a bias against calling people who were born Jewish as such? in 2012. Then there was Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism/Archive 26#2 sources to support that Nikki Yanofsky is Jewish? in 2011 where Camelbinky, AndyTheGrump, and Bus stop all had the same "notable for being Canadian" argument. Is this some sort of biannual ritual for all of you? Uncle G (talk) 12:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it seems to be a biannual ritual for this IP - much the same question was asked in July, and responded to by Jimbo. [2] Does the IP expect Jimbo to have changed his mind in the meantime? AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh boy oh boy, let's gear up for yet another exciting "who's a jew" debate. Or not..... I know I've said this before, but we've really got to put some effort into revamping policies towards race/ethnicity/religion issues. Frankly, I don't understand why we can't just agree that there's an inherent degree of subjectiveness to things like race, nationality, ethnicity, religion, sexual persuasion, and sometimes even gender. We've got to call out that WP shouldn't be using these classifications unless they're truly unambiguous, relevant to notability, or self-identified with. There's a sad contingent of editors on WP who seem to love racially categorizing biography article subjects on WP, similar to how the Belgians categorized folks in Rwanda (and we all know how that turned out). Those editors ought stop. We ought write policy to make them stop. NickCT (talk) 13:26, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This. — Coren (talk) 14:04, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
thirded. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we need an additional section in Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not:
Wikipedia is not a database of ethnic or religious affiliation.
Wikipedia articles on individuals, and Wikipedia articles which mention individuals, should only discuss the ethnic or religious affiliation of such individuals where this relates to the notabiliy of the individual concerned, as demonstrated in reliable sources independent of the affiliation in question. Furthermore, under no circumstances will any assertion be made in Wikipedia's editorial voice that a living individual is of a particular ethnicity or religious affiliation unless the individual concerned has self-identified as such.
AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:12, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like the "who's gay, bisexual or transgendered debate" Self identity seems to be thrown to the way side so we can call Joan Crawford "bisexual" because some people are claiming it in print. Or even the "This mass killer is a Republican/Democrat" issue.--Amadscientist (talk) 04:41, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yup - which reminds me, I should probably have written 'publicly' self-identified, given the tendency of POV-pushers to engage in WP:OR to 'prove' self-identification from questionable interpretations of private conversations. A lot of this actually comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of an encyclopaedia, as I see it. We aren't here to state as a fact that an individual is X, Y, or Z, when 'being X, Y or Z' is either subjective, or frankly nobody's business but that of the individual concerned. If people want to find 'lists of Xians', or 'lists of Ys who like to Z' they can do it elsewhere. The internet has no shortage of such sites... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:40, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Brainstorming NickCT (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Square Enix is back

Today our fine featured ad for the Christmas shopping season is Final Fantasy. It is one of many featured articles from the prolific and dedicated editors of WP:WikiProject Square Enix, devoted to the fine products of Square Enix and its European division. Though less than half of Square Enix's fine products that have reached FA status have actually been displayed on the Main Page so far, they still have appeared about once every 212 days since 2006:

The Square Enix WikiProject doesn't include works of the wholly owned subsidiaries Taito and Eidos in its lists, so I didn't count Taito's Space Invaders (April 24, 2010) and I'm not sure how many more of those there are, but their articles don't seem like they've seen anywhere near as much attention - there are even lots of redlinks.

It looks like some folks at Square Enix have a lot to be proud of on their resumes, and I'm sure they have a bright future ahead of them in Wikipedia advertising. Wnt (talk) 19:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive the following statements of the obvious, but not all readers of the talk page will be aware of the process, so I'll address that. If you (plural, i.e. anyone here) see any inappropriate language/content/sourcing/advertising etc within the articles, then you can edit them accordingly, and discuss any issues on the respective talk pages. If you don't think they should be featured articles, then please see the instructions at WP:FAR (which includes a requirement of raising issues on the talk page first). If you would like different articles to be TFAs, then please browse the list of FAs yet to appear on the main page and then make suggestions or comment on nominations by others at WP:TFAR. If you would like to broaden the choice available, then work on something else and nominate it at WP:FAC. As a TFA delegate, I selected Final Fantasy to run today (without a TFAR discussion - most TFAs are just selected rather than discussed) because it was noted on the advance warning list that today was the game's 25th anniversary, which seemed to me to be as good a day as any (if not better than most) to run it. You will notice from WP:FANMP that there are 71 video game FAs yet to appear on the main page (out of 143 current video game FAs), pr just over 5% of the unused FAs, which might suggest on a purely percentage basis that a video game ought to be TFA every 19 days or so (i.e. about 18 or 19 a year). In fact, TFA schedulers try to avoid having similar articles within 1 month, which means that the chances of a video game appearing as TFA are less than average (and certainly not as many as 18 a year); as it happens there was no video game TFA in October. I don't know, and I don't particularly care, which company owns which video game series, and that certainly wasn't a factor in my decision. I wasn't responsible for earlier scheduling decisions. For what it is worth, I have never played, or even seen, any of the video games mentioned above or yet to appear on the main page (with the exception of "Age of Empires" which I played many years and several computers ago). Hope this explanation helps. BencherliteTalk 20:07, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ice hockey related articles have appeared once every 166 days, on average, over the same time. I guess we at WP:HOCKEY are just better spammers. Resolute 20:21, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Wnt is engaging in a bit of point-making here, as he is still a bit upset over the whole DYK Gibraltar affair. Tarc (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ice hockey is a sport. Square Enix is an owner. The count for all video game related articles is much higher. Now, one can say that Gibraltar is a small place and doesn't deserve a seat in the United Nations, but ... does Square Enix? Then why does it hold a permanent claim to 1/200th of the world of Wikipedia? I didn't think that the Gibraltar people deserved to be treated as harshly as they did, no, but the "point" I'm making here has more to do with the fact that we're allowing a single company to use us far more harshly than that place ever tried to. Wnt (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you even know what your point is, actually. We're not allowing a company to use us at all. Rather, several editors with interest in the Final Fantasy series have put a great deal of work into their favoured project. We actually have several pop culture 'units' with similar levels of dedication and quality. Resolute 21:44, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The point is that if you could sell any company 0.5% of Wikipedia's main page TFA slot, that would be worth a lot of money. Or, as a WMUK slideshow presentation to PR people put it a while back, on a slide named "[Wikipedia] Contributions as soft advertising" (slide 22): Imagine having your client's name on the Front Page of the world's fifth website? Andreas JN466 02:02, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with these arguments is that even the ice hockey featured articles were almost entirely professional hockey teams and their star players, who have their own franchising, licensing, promotions, and agents. As long as Wikipedia articles cover a broad swath of society, there will be a mix of articles by fanboys of a video game, fans of an ice hockey team, fans of a mega-money making rock band, etc. Some of those articles will reach FA and appear on the main page. If we banned all commercial money-making entities from being featured, that would cover most of popular culture and nearly all living people. First Light (talk) 02:28, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What would you want, Andreas? That as an article bubbles up through the TFA process we bill whatever entity will possibly benefit from the exposure and refuse to run it unless they pay up? — Coren (talk) 14:55, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you have evidence that the company is behind the creation and / or editing of these articles to featured standard, no doubt you'll show it. I would have thought that using FAs, and TFAs in particular, as an advertising strategy is a pretty poor approach since it requires a lot of time and effort to write articles with excellent prose/sources and without promotional language; then you have to steer them through FAC where uninvolved editors review and can sink a nomination; then you have to rely on the whims of TFA scheduling. Short of corrupting all the FAC reviewers and the TFA schedulers, how can you guarantee main-page exposure for an article?! BencherliteTalk 21:54, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Even if Square Enix were responsible, and no evidence has been presented, should it matter why an article is improved to feature quality? Any COI issues should have been hammered out by that point if they ever existed. Monty845 04:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to thank Wnt for spreading the word about this article. I have played several games from this series and had never read this article before tonight. - UnbelievableError (talk) 07:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure there is much we can do about the fact that what are on a practical level significant cultural artifacts have their copyright owned by private companies.©Geni 20:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

Please be aware of Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2012#Results. Thank you. MBisanz talk 21:05, 18 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Not sure everyone is going to be happy with the results but then many will be....so it kinda balances out! =)--Amadscientist (talk) 04:38, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of the result, I find it remarkable that a) less than 900 people cast a vote, and b) that I notice that the result is out via Jimbo's talk page... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:55, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I should be able to make my ceremonial/formal appointments on Friday. There will be no surprises.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:59, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. Does this mean that your role is basically that of a one-man electoral college? :-) Prioryman (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More like the Queen. :-) --Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:05, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
..or maybe "a queen"? I think proper drag attire would very much lend colour to otherwise dull official occasions, like visits of state, taking of an oath of office, or appointing Wikipedia arbiters. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wearing the proper attire for visits isn't to be sniffed at.--Santa (talk) 17:47, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Awwwww, you tricked me, I thought you were gonna post some smoking hot picture of a Vegas porno convention archived for the betterment of the encyclopedia at WMF Commons... Carrite (talk) 01:00, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Bwahahahaha! Oh stop...you're killing me! LOL! Queen Jimbo Wales! Not gonna stop smiling for a week! LOL!--Amadscientist (talk) 02:49, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Proper attire is very important. Resolute 14:37, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A follow-up blog post for your attention

Jimbo, feel free to revert me if you want, but otherwise, WP:BLP applies on every page. The allegations made here are very serious and the policy on it correspondingly provides a method to put forth such allegations privately. If anyone believes there are grounds to make such an allegation, please follow that process only and do not begin public discussions on the matter. Please consider this a BLP courtesy blanking/hiding. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:14, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Jimbo, you didn't comment on my (redacted) about an (redacted) who self-identified as a pro-pedophilia advocate, but I hope you took the time to read my blog post nonetheless. I just wanted to let you know that I've done a (redacted). Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:19, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is a risky game to play. Allegations of this kind should not be made without very strong evidence. It is not Jimbo's job to comment on every blog post on Wikipediocracy.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 13:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Er, if one self-identifies as a "girllover" (that is currently a redirect to pedophilia; here is the article prior to redirection), that is kinda evidence enough for an immediate ban. Tarc (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
There can be no stronger evidence in these cases than that provided by the person themselves here on Wikipedia. I suspect Jimbo is much better positioned to comment on what his job entails and can speak for himself. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:22, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Am I right in assuming that some Wikipedia editors edit from prison? For all I know, they may have committed heinous crimes. So long as their edits are in line with policy, does it matter? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:24, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is, in fact, covered by policy: WP:Pedophilia. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Both of you must be aware that accusations of this kind should not be made in project space. Using Jimbo's talk page as a billboard to advertise the latest dramas of other websites is unhelpful.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ian, is this line from WP:CHILDPROTECT what you're referring to? "Reports of editors engaging in such conduct should be made to the Arbitration Committee for further action, and should not be the subject of community discussion, comment or consensus." It seems pretty black and white to me. Also, I should think that this bit from WP:Pedophilia would be relevant here: "Questions or accusations directed against a particular editor in project space may result in a block for the editor who posted them". This is very thin ice. I suggest hatting this discussion and directing people to follow the mechanism set out in WP:CHILDPROTECT; Jimbo's talk page patently is not a suitable forum for such a discussion. Prioryman (talk) 14:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is unwise to get drawn into any discussion about the editor in question, because of the risk of drama, libel or both. Delicious carbuncle and Tarc are both aware of this policy, so it is disappointing that there have been two attempts to ask Jimbo for a comment on the matter.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 14:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What is disappointing here is that editors cover themselves win wiki-legalese to avoid simple facts before their eyes. No one has accused anyone of anything here, so I'd thank you kindly to stop lying. If a user says "I am X", where X runs afoul of WP:Pedophilia, then the only possible response is a block. Simple math, guys, you can't escape it. Tarc (talk) 14:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I do think there's a legitimate issue of concern, but I don't see any indication from either of these two interventions on Jimbo's user talk page that the proper channels have been followed. That's concerning in itself. I've notified the relevant people about this discussion so hopefully action will taken soon, one way or another. In the meantime I suggest that editors shouldn't continue this thread any further. Prioryman (talk) 15:02, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seraphimblade, now that you've hidden the discussion, will you will be blocking the user I discuss in my blog post? If not, why not? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have you, or do you plan on following the instructions provided by policy? If not, why not? Resolute 15:27, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Which instructions are you referring to Resolute? An email to ArbCom? Seriously, I think the ball's in the admins' court now. Step up. VolunteerMarek 15:33, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
My experience with reporting these types of cases to ARBCOM has been less than satisfactory. I made that clear in my first blog post and in my earlier message to Jimbo. I hope that one of the many people who has seen or participated in this discussion or earlier discussions has notified ARBCOM. If not, ARBCOM should certainly question why they didn't. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:35, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


(ec) Oh and someone remind me because I forget these things. Isn't Prioryman banned from interacting with Delicious Carbuncle? If so the above not-so-subtle suggestion that DC get blocked for this (!) is a pretty damn clear violation of such a ban. If he isn't interaction banned, it's still a pretty messed up comment. And way weaselly too.VolunteerMarek 15:39, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Barring any discussion about that other editor, I find it very strange that we have a policy WP:Child protection which is supported by a who's who of Wikipedian administrators, yet nobody wants to enforce any aspect of it, for or against the accused, at all. Putting a hat on that material above is the first step I've seen toward enforcement - and wasn't done the last time this discussion crossed this page - but the policy calls for revdeling it. And Carbuncle ... I don't think it's fair that I've nearly agreed with you, called for the community to be able to look into these issues as you want them to be able to, only to be called here (via link to your blog) "one of Wikipedia's most unhinged editors". It is hard for you to be effective when you act that way. Wnt (talk) 16:07, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked the user. Any objections or further discussion should be off-wiki. Arbcom notified and anyone interested can correspond with them. Subject closed.--Scott Mac 16:29, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note that I notified Arbcom about this particular issue last month. Claritas § 20:58, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kazakhstan government support for Kazakh Wikipedia

Jimbo, could you tell us something about the relationship between Kazakhstan's government and the Kazakh Wikipedia? The reason I am asking is these articles:

Former Prime Minister Karim Massimov, currently chief of staff of the President's Office, who is mentioned in the Economist article as the country's foremost blogger, is mentioned in the second article about your "expected" visit as a prominent supporter of the Kazakh Wikipedia. Andreas JN466 02:21, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you should ask Rauan Kenzhekhanuly directly instead of Jimbo, if you haven't already. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 02:42, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I second this. Rauan will know more than I do. As far as I have been told so far, there are no particularly difficult issues with neutrality in the Kazakh Wikipedia, but I'm open to evidence. (Notice that I didn't say that there are "no issues" - in every language there are issues. As far as I know, the Wikibilim organization is not politicized. In my visit to Kazakhstan I will of course stress the importance of freedom of the press and encourage more openness.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
From the English Wikipedia article: "Eventually, the state-supported Samruk Kazyna Foundation sponsored the expansion, with 30 million tenge spent in 2011 for paid editing, digitalization, and author rights transfer."
30 million tenge = ~$200 000 (US). Kazakhstan's nominal GDP per capita is $11,167, less than a quarter that of the States. So big bucks, relatively. Maybe it was started by bureaucrats who want nothing more than to aid the spread of the Kazakh language online. However, Kazakhstan ranks 154th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index, on par with Pakistan, Iraq, Palestine, Libya, and Rwanda. They are also ranked "Not Free" in the Freedom in the World report.
Who knows. But has the Wikimedia Foundation ever had experience of a government of this nature wresting control of its national language's encyclopaedia? Is there anywhere non-Kazakh speaking concerned editors can go to keep an eye on what's going on?
Cheers, PhnomPencil (✉) 03:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your implication of Kazakh Wikipedia's contents is affected by the sponsorship from Kazakh state-supported entity is rude. You need concrete evidence before asking the question. If you can prove that many prominent Kazakn Wikipedia articles have broken the neutrality pillar, by all mean, complain to WMF, not beating around the bush. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 04:12, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree of course with your assertion that the matter should not be discussed. I think this would generate more debate if it weren't from a region famous for being considered obscure, and sponsorship by the PRC gov't, I believe, would be put under the microscope as a matter of course. Probably no harm would come from sponsorship of editorship from Beijing, but a discussion on the matter, in my subjective opinion, would be healthy. It appears we are at odds over this. And I'm not making a formal complaint, I'm just informally asking if anyone knows more about this. Because I'm interested. It's a discussion. We're all adults here.
I'm commenting here again, though, just to clarify that I'm aware the volunteer editors of the Kazakh Wikipedia spend their time there for the same reason we do -- they want to expand the breadth of knowledge for the greater good -- and I want to emphasize that in no way am I criticizing them. I'm only interested in the paid editorship of articles sponsored by the Kazakh government. If it looked like I was tarring them, I sincerely apologize. PhnomPencil (✉) 05:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not against discussion. Paidediting is only a fact, but it is not the deciding factor that Kazakh Wikipedia would go the wrong way. I prefer starting a discussion after someone has provided concrete evidence that Kazakh Wikipedia is in neutrality crisis. By that I mean quotes from disputed Kazakh Wikipedia articles along with faithful English translation, not assumption over a fact that paidediting is plaguing Kazakh Wikipedia. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 06:35, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The amounts have gone up, PhnomPencil. According to this article,

In 2011 Samruk Kazyna Sovereign Wealth Fund allocated a total of $204 million to develop the Kazakh-language Wikipedia. This year, another $136 million will be earmarked, Tengrinews.kz reports, citing the Fund’s Press Service.

According to Majilis (lower chamber) deputy Murat Abenov, “the project needs fresh authors (…) The Project is being run by the non-profit WikiBilim organization. None of the staff was paid a salary: they did it voluntarily”. Thanks to the Samruk Kazyna’s financial support, the number of entries in the Kazakh-language Wikipedia had reached 125 000 by the end of 2011, with the number of registered users mounting to 14 550. The editorial staff was increased from 4 to 250 people. The Kazakh-language Wikipedia raised from the 127th to the 35th place in the rankings of countries”, the Fund’s Press Service announced.

According to the report by WikiBilim, from June 16, 2011 to December 31, 2011, a total of 71 contracts were signed with a raft of writers, editors and translators.

Besides, in 2011 and 2012 a total of 22 000 volunteers have been attracted.

I assume the use of the $ symbol in that news article is an error, and that the amounts are in Tenge (₸).
The fundraiser banners recently proudly proclaimed, "we take no government funds". Andreas JN466 15:33, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

According to Freedom House, Even as officials adopted social media for their own use, promoting state programs and confronting local authorities with incompetence, the state has increasingly contested internet freedom and online alternatives to state-owned news outlets. The internet was accessed by 34 percent of the population in 2010. A 2009 law classified websites as mass media outlets, giving the authorities greater latitude to shut them down under vaguely worded extremism statutes or in the interests of state security. Doesn't sound like an ideal environment for a "free" enyclopedia to me, but maybe Well, I guess they will make an exception for Jimbo, hm? Attaboy. --Janneman (talk) 16:34, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've actually been eyeing up Kazakhstan for some time to better cover some of its small towns which are missing enmasse. Although the main towns have population data from old Soviet censuses, I've been looking forward to some up to do population data on every village/ Would be good if the Kazakh government could do a census and publish data for all villages and then work with individuals to get articles put on Kazakh wiki with data and then on English wikipedia.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Message to the founder of Wikimedia

Welcome.

  1. Since you are the founder of Wikipedia, why not nominate yourself or ask a Arhg Kbiroaqrat, then after the nomination period Steward?!
  2. What do you think of Egyptian and Arabic Wikipedia which claims that the Egyptian dialect languages? They lie and culture lie the English Wikipedia every Wikipedias every encyclopedias — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.130.103.230 (talk) 09:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]


We really have a very simple test once a Wikipedia has had a chance to establish itself. Does it have a reasonable level of activity and a reasonable amount of content? At the moment activity on arz: is low compared with ar: (and even that is pretty low), but I think it is enough for the Wiki to continue, if you have concerns the people who would have the answers are the Language Committee, who can probably be contacted on Meta. And I would agree that arz: is somewhat of an anomaly, there could very well be, in theory, a dozen Arabic Wikipedias, nonetheless it is the one for which there was sufficient support. In time, of course, with a lack of outside funding it may well be that this wiki closes or is mothballed. It will be, I hope, a decision taken pragmatically on the usefulness of the project, not on possibly political arguments about what constitutes a language, and what a dialect.
All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 21:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]

Wikipedia doesn't need your money - so why does it keep pestering you?

On Wikipedia's own donations page we learn of a moving story of a student in Agnam-Goly, a Sahelian village in north-eastern Senegal with a population of 3,143 inhabitants, who expresses how he'd love to give money to the foundation."I wish I had money to donate to Wikipedia," writes Adama Diop.Does he know wealthy Westerners are using the donations to buy cameras and travel to pop concerts? Or that the foundation has more cash than it knows what to do with? 71.202.122.192 (talk) 18:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm disappointed in The Register. The tone is incredibly negative, but at the same time he admits that much of what the foundation is doing is "eminently sensible". The things that he is criticizing seem to come at the chapter level and are relatively small expenses. He doesn't even both to try to understand why we might be interested in getting photos of politicians or concerts. And then there are some things that are just silly: "Few politicians or media figures now dare criticise Wikipedia" Hah! GabrielF (talk) 19:03, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wikimedians do not need money to get photos of politicians. They could simply email to the politicians or to their offices, and get as many pictures as they want together with the permissions for using them.
I think that the point "Few politicians or media figures now dare criticise Wikipedia" has some merits. The foundation has became a very powerful organization, and the Wikipedia community has a deadly weapon to use against notable persons who dare to criticise Wikipedia - their Wikipedia entries. I know, I know, there are polices like BLP and no original research, and everything should be sourced, and so on, but truth be told there's no policy that could prevent an experienced Wikipedian from changing an article the way he wants it to change especially with the Foundation on his side.71.202.122.192 (talk) 19:23, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Actually WP:BLP is much better policed than you appear to think it is. Unless you care to give us some examples? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:32, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Remember that even, if BLP is fixed the fix could come after other sites picked up a wrong version. There are plenty examples of users using Wikipedia entries to defame their opponents:Here's one, or you may want to read this and this: "Vandalism of conservatives’ Wikipedia pages is nothing new. " 71.202.122.192 (talk) 19:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm well aware of Johann Hari; I was hoping for examples about "an experienced Wikipedian ... changing an article the way he wants it to change especially with the Foundation on his side". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not at all disappointed in The Register; Orlowski has been writing this sort of thing on a regular basis for quite some time now, so it's not at all surprising to see more of it. He can't even get his basic facts right (what sort of journalist takes a screenshot of the subject of his article then blatantly mis-labels what the screenshot is showing?), so I imagine there are now very few people out there who still take him seriously. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:13, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well there are 100+ comments on the article that are not positive towards WP, and most are double digit liked. It seems that in the UK at least, OW's article is chiming with what a number of people think. I also note that he's picked up on the Google connection and the WP blackout too. John lilburne (talk) 21:51, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
More than a hundred?!? Gosh! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:05, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you get big, someone's going to take a potshot at you at some point. It's inevitable. Doesn't mean we should ignore criticism, and in the past some of it's been quite fairly leveled, but a lot of it is half-true (if that) silliness. As to the allegation above that WMF would support deliberate defamation of critics, that could not only lose it 501(c)(3) status, but also get it sued into oblivion (and safe harbor protections don't apply if WMF initiated or approved the action). I don't always agree with WMF, but even aside from the fact that such an act would be a blatant breach of ethics for an officer of a charitable foundation, I think they're more than smart enough to know that would be a very, very bad idea. Seraphimblade Talk to me 00:12, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On the other hand, this year's fundraiser just today matched last year's take, after only nine days of actually trying. Kind of hilariously, this was after the Fundraising Department explained in great detail how exceeding last year's take was unlikely. However, the Annual Plan was subsequently revised to project smaller fundraising growth this year than last, even though page views increased over the past year more sharply than in the previous three years. The Register is right to say that Wikimedia fundraising leaves much to be desired, but not in the way they describe. 67.41.200.185 (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"The No. 1 college basketball recruit has his own personal Wikipedian, and it sure does show. Let's compare his Wikipedia page, which is nearly as big as Michael Jordan's, to that of the No. 1 football recruit, Robert Nkemdiche. 71.202.122.192 (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in the story to indicate the editing was "paid" in any sense. If there is an article someone had to write it, & the main editor of it writes a lot, mostly on subjects no one would be at all likely to pay for. Johnbod (talk) 23:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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