Talk:Jesus

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Should the possible birth year span be extended back more?

Some scholars think Jesus might have been born as early as 10, 12 or even 14 BC. Irenaeus seemed to have believed so and Robin Lane Fox believes this is so. Should we extend Jesus' possible birth year back a few years?

Thevideodrome (talk) 02:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Clearing up some citations

I've removed three sources from the "Etymology of names" section, including a Messianic Bible (arguably fringe and unreliable), what looks like a second unreliable source (Natan, self-published through a POD service called CreateSpace), and a book called The King James Conspiracy, which is... um... well, it's a novel.

I've replaced it with a cite to Ehrman's last book, Did Jesus Exist?, but I've hit a bit of a snag, as I only have the Nook book and am not sure about page numbers. On the Nook PC app with default text settings, it's page 29, which is cited elsewhere in this article, but I'm pretty sure the page number will not necessarily match up with the print edition. The paragraph I have in mind is a bullet point about 2/3 through the first chapter, under the heading rebutting The Jesus Mysteries. It begins with the text "The Gospel writers deliberately constructed the Greek name Jesus".

If someone could double-check and get a print page number, then make the necessary correction (or just reply here and let me know so I can), that would be great. Thanks! Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 09:42, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I did a Google Book search for the Ehrman book and could not find a single result for "Yehoshua". Therefore, I suspect that Ehrman's book does not support the statement in the article. We might need to find a different source.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:17, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Nevermind, the Ehrman source does state that Yeshua is derived from the Hebrew word for Joshua. I've added a source that states that Joshua is a rendition of Yehoshua. I think the whole sentence is now supported by RS. As for the page number, I believe page 29 is correct, because the the part about Yeshua is on the same page as the quote "nearly anyone who lived in the first century", which is what the other citation is used for.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Historicity

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've removed text that asserts historicity as a consensus, since the sources were cherry-picked, and only expressed the sources' opinions. I'll say more a little later, when I have more time. Strangesad (talk) 16:59, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

For example, a scholar who questions the existence of jesus: Michael Martin (philosopher) Strangesad (talk) 17:00, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Under footnote "d" we mention Robert M. Price, who believes that Jesus did not exist, but also writes that most scholars disagree with him. Regardless of what Martin believes, does he dispute that most scholars disagree with him? —Cliftonian (talk) 17:05, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The article doesn't say "most." It says "virtually all". 51% is very different from 99%. Anyway, most of the sources have a theological background not a historical one, and they are giving their opinions. There is no clear definition of what they mean by "scholar", but they seem to mean religion professors rather than historiians. The citation says stuff like Micahale Grant is a classicist, without mentioning that his specialty was Roman coins, and never mentions that all the sources for these claims are popular books, author interviews promoting their popular books, and so on. This has been discussed at great length here and on Resurrection of Jesus. It always ends with the minority skeptics being chased off by those guarding these articles.

I'm not sure who closed/hid this section, or why, but it seemed oppressively aggressive. Strangesad (talk) 17:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Its closed for just the reason stated - this is an issue that has been debated ad nauseum. The concensus is what is stated on the page. Ckruschke (talk) 17:23, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

Consensus can change, and saying it has been debated "ad nauseum" suggests that there are many views on it. It also doesn't address the points. When you say "virtually all" it should not be easy to find reliable counter-examples. Elaine Pagels, GA Wells, Betrand Russell, Richard Dawkins, and Price are all scholars who have expressed doubt. Strangesad (talk) 17:31, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Be careful not to confuse "notable people who have expressed an opinion" with historians and academics whose opinions actually matter as far as "historicity". Dawkins for example is very notable, but I'm not sure what gives weight to his opinions on historical facts or not. Also be careful to separate "did a Person named Jesus exist, who was the focal point for these stories" from "Is the Bible an accurate historical record of the actions of Jesus", which are two very different questions. In particular Wells seems to argue that Jesus was attributed with the mantle of many other older myths and figures - which is very plausible, but also a separate issue from if he existed or not. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:36, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

"Jesus probably existed.” – Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, p.122 Smeat75 (talk) 17:54, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I think Dawkins has said Jesus existed, but he also said that Jesus would be an atheist. What Dawkins means by Jesus is not clearly "a Jewish preacher from Galilee, baptized by John the Baptist, and crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman prefect, Pontius Pilate" as represented in this article. Strangesad (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarding the "virtualy all" statements, this book review reveals that Ehrman's definition of "scholar" is surprisingly narrow. Not what the average reader is going to expect:

"By serious scholar, Ehrman means one holding a PhD ... and currently tenured in the field of New Testament studies" [1].

I propose we change the wording of the article to "According to Ehrman, virtually everyone tenured in the field of the New Testament studies...." to more accurately reflect the source. Also, Van Voorst's Wikipedia page descibes him as a pastor. A pastor is not in a position to be objective about the historical reality of Jesus. Strangesad (talk) 16:54, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

In addition, a popup note in the lede mentions Ehrman's background as "secular agnostic". The term "secular" is redundnat, and should be removed as a matter of style. More importantly, if we are going to give his background, it is fair & balanced to mention that his early degrees are from a Bible college and a theological seminary, and he grew up an evangelical. Strangesad (talk) 16:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

No, leave it as it is. Neither Bertrand Russell nor Richard Dawkins for example have the slightest expertise in the field. Johnbod (talk) 17:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't knowwhat you're geting at. I am saying something about giving the reader more information about Ehrman's background and what he means by "scholar." As a reader, I would assume the appropriate scholar is a historian. Ehrman means only a professor in New Testament studies. In other words, Ehrman's definition excludes Michael Grant.... Do you happen to know the religious demographics of people who pursue New Testament degrees? Strangesad (talk) 17:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I think we should not be discussing the background of these sources, as it is using wikipedia's voice to bolster or weaken the arguments, which is a form of WP:OR Gaijin42 (talk) 17:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The only reason that Ehrman's agnosticism and secularism are mentioned is because some misguided souls argue that the sources which say that the non-existence of Jesus is a fringe view are not to be trusted because they are religious, and religious people are not to be trusted in these matters, no matter what their qualifications are. If people would stop making this argumentum ad hominem, then the response would not be necessary. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:10, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The book review you cite says Ehrman defines "serious scholar" as "one holding a PhD ... and currently tenured in the field of New Testament studies" but I would like to see a quote from Ehrman himself saying that. I am sure he would not say that Michael Grant was not a serious scholar as he was one of the most respected classical historians of the 20th century. It is only here on WP talk pages that I have ever seen Grant dismissed as a writer of "popular books" who speciality was coins. Ehrman is excluding self published authors and bloggers such as Earl Doherty, Robert Carrier and D.M. Murdock but does say that mythicist Robert Price is a serious scholar.Smeat75 (talk) 19:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

It is common to indicate the person's background when it might be of interestr, or indicate a slant on the source's perspective. For example, many Wikipedia articles refer to sources as "liberal" or "conservative" and so on. This article often does the same. A priest obviously has a conflict of interest in this subject. someone with a highly evangelical background is going to prone to certain perspectives and assumptions. Strangesad (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry I meant Richard Carrier above, not Robert. I think identifying sources' religious beliefs or lack of them, or backgrounds, is superfluous and in poor taste.Smeat75 (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Everyone who has more than a passing interest in Early Christian history should know about Ehrman, and they can get a good start on that if they click his hyper-linked name. However, it is in fact highly unusual to give details to someone's background when merely citing them. What might be of more interest to the reader than his background is Ehrman's current standing: If Ehrman has his own original thought published on any aspect of either Early Christian history or New Testament textual criticism, then every other scholar writing on that aspect cites Ehrman, because he is so well-respected in the field. That tells you a lot more about the value of his perspective than the fact that he went to Moody. But this article is not about Ehrman, it's about Jesus, so there's no good reason to go into such matters for this article. If his background is there to indicate a slant on his perspective, what slant is supposed to be indicated? What slant does Ehrman have, and what reliable sources indicate that he has that slant? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

What I'm saying is: If you're trying to help the reader contextualise Ehrman's opinion so that they have some understanding of the authority of his opinion, then rather than trying to make his opinion seem to be of dubious authority, you should be trying to make his opinion seem to be of the utmost authority, because he is such a well-regarded historian of Early Christianity. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 18:56, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

I haven't read Ehrman's book. However, there is no reason to think the book reviewer is lying, and it is highly consistent with Ehrman's remarks on the Huffington Post. There he also equates respectable scholars with people who hold positions in religion departments and have degrees in New Testament Studies.[2]. This is not what we lead the reader to expect when we say "virtually all scholars." Strangesad (talk) 05:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a direct quote from Ehrman's book: "none is written by ... scholars trained in New Testament or early Christian studies teaching at the major, or even the minor, accredited theological seminaries, divinity schools...of the thousands of scholars of early Christianity who do teach at such schools, none of them to my knowledge has any doubt Jesus existed. But a whole body of literature ...some of it highly intelligent and well-informed makes this case....a couple of bona fide scholars--not professors teaching religious in universities but scholars nonetheless, and at least one of them with a Ph.D in the field of New Testament--have taken this position." [3]

So, he repeatedly equates experts with religion professors (i.e. himself). He also states that some bona fide scholars have argued Jesus didn't exist. Of course, elsewhere he uses terms like "virtually all." That's what you get when you cite a popular book. This article distorts the source. Strangesad (talk) 05:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You missed a word: he wrote "... teaching religious studies in universities ...". And I think we should note what he wrote immediately after: "Their books ... do occupy a noteworthy niche as a (very) small but (often) loud minority voice. Once you tune into this voice, you quickly learn just how persistent and vociferous it can be." --Stfg (talk) 15:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

You deleted a lot of sources on spurious grounds and you once again altered the second sentence of the lead, which is a paraphrase of a direct quote from Bart Ehrman as cited. You do not have consensus for these changes. Show me anywhere in any WP guideline or policy that forbids or discourages use of "popular books". Is it OK to cite "unpopular books" in your opinion? It is a ridiculous, meaningless phrase. Please see WP:RS - " Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both." Please stop your disruptive edits to this article. Smeat75 (talk) 12:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

"Second paragraph" of the lead, not sentence, I meant. Smeat75 (talk) 13:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

My "spurious" grounds for deleting the sources is that they don't actually support the text in the question. They don't say what we say they say. That's not spurious, that's honest. As for Ehrman, I am adding to the use of his popular book. Your comments seem a bit in denial. If it is OK to cite Ehrman's book when implying no credible sources are mythicists, then why isn't it OK to cite that exact same book when he says that, OK, actually, there are some credible mythicists? What we really should do is inform the reader of what Ehrman means. When he says "virtually all" what he means is all religion professors currently holding a position at a university (+ Bible college and seminary). When he says there a some "bona fide" skeptics, he is using a broader definition of "scholar." Instead of trying to whitewash the diversity, inform the reader of it. Strangesad (talk) 14:53, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Non-Christian Sources

"Non-Christian sources used to establish the historical existence of Jesus include the works of first-century historians Josephus and Tacitus.[215][234] Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman has stated that "few have doubted the genuineness" of Josephus' reference to Jesus in book 20 of the Antiquities of the Jews, and it is disputed only by a small number of scholars.[235][236] Tacitus referred to Christ and his execution by Pilate in book 15 of his work Annals. Scholars generally consider Tacitus's reference to the execution of Jesus to be both authentic and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[237]"

I've looked at all these sources. None of them state that the manuscripts in question establish the existence of jesus. They are concenred with whether the passages referring to jesus were actually written by Josephus and Tacitus (respectively). All say that virtually nobody thinks the Josephus passage is authentic as written; most think there was some reference to Jesus which was embellished subsequently. The article also omits the relevant detail that these writers lived several generations after the death of Jesus and are not eye-witness accounts. Strangesad (talk) 05:57, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

You might want to look at them again: "It is occasionally doubted if Jesus even existed. This claim can be decisively refuted without once appealing to Christian evidence. The non-Christian testimonies from antiquity may be divided into Greco-Roman and Jewish sources..." (Blomberg p. 431).--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

That source isn't reliable, as I pointed out in the FAC:

• Blomberg, Craig L. (2009). Jesus and the Gospels: An Introduction and Survey. B&H Publishing Group.
• The publisher's Web site: "B&H Publishing Group, a division of LifeWay Christian Resources, is a team of more than 100 mission-minded people with a passion for taking God's Word to the world. B&H exists to provide intentional, Bible-centered content that positively impacts the hearts and minds of people, inspiring them to build a lifelong relationship with Jesus Christ."
• The author: "Dr. Craig Blomberg joined the faculty of Denver Seminary in 1986. He is currently a distinguished professor of New Testament. Dr. Blomberg completed his PhD in New Testament, specializing in the parables and the writings of Luke-Acts, at Aberdeen University in Scotland. He received an MA from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School...." And about his professorship: "Denver Seminary prepares men and women to engage the needs of the world with the redemptive power of the gospel and the life-changing truth of Scripture....in order to lead God’s people in the accomplishment of His mission in the world."

Meanwhile, our policy on reliable sources states: "Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view", and that religious sources are prone to bias. We already have a large number of sources that have a personal mission statement of promoting Christianity. This one is the most over the top.

Bloomberg has no background in history. His specialties are the New Testament (a text), parables and writings. A translater of the Odyssey can't be assumed to be an expert on the Greek Bronze age, and a (religiously biased) expert on the New Testament is not an expert on the history of the period. (You also ignored all the other sources used in the section, which don't say anything about "establishing", except maybe Voorst who has same faults as Bloomberg as a source.) Strangesad (talk) 16:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Policy on Reliable Sources

Found some relevant text in the policy on reliable sources:

• Common sources of bias include political, financial, religious, philosophical, or other beliefs. Sometimes "non-neutral" sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. When dealing with a potentially biased source, editors should consider whether the source meets the normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking. Editors should also consider whether the bias makes it appropriate to use in-text attribution to the source, as in "According to the opinion columnist Maureen Dowd..." or "According to the opera critic Tom Sutcliffe..."
• "Care should be taken with journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view."

These are actionable problems. The majority of publishers in the "existence" section of this article are imprints with a mission of promoting Jesus. Obviously, a publisher whose Web site says “Eerdmans has long been known for publishing a wide range of Christian and religious books, from academic works in Christian theology, biblical studies, religious history, and reference to popular titles in spirituality....” meets the criterion of existing to promote a particular view. And when half the sourcing is that one publisher, care has not been taken. Strangesad (talk) 06:10, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Nobody disputes that there are different opinions here; some people believe Jesus was a real historical person, others don't. The issue is about how much weight should be given to the non-historicist view. In the scholarly world, it is very clear that the overwhelming consensus is for historicity (whether minimalist or maximalist), and there are ample citations to support this. The article, rightly, favours the consensus view. We cannot give equal space to the mythicist view; that would be undue weight to a small minority viewpoint.

The reference to journals that exist mainly to promote a particular point of view is about publications that have no other purpose but to promote a view that would not otherwise be supported - 'astroturf' sources, in other words. This does not describe the journals listed here. Of course they tend to promote the theological viewpoint, but that's incidental. That's not their purpose, any more than journals on LGBT issues have a mission of promoting same-sex attraction. Clearly, the vast majority of scholars writing on New Testament studies are Christians of some kind, and no doubt that makes them favour some views more than others. It would be much better if there were scholars from a much broader range of backgrounds writing on the subject. Possibly in the future, there will be. But right now, we can only represent the consensus of views existing in contemporary scholarship. To exclude them would result in giving massively undue weight to a minority viewpoint. --Rbreen (talk) 14:28, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Argument from silence

FutureT has now reverted this edit twice, without discussion in Talk: [4]. It adds quotes from the sources already in the article, and tweaks the wording to more accurately reflect what they say (they say arguments from silence are a legitmate tool). [5] Strangesad (talk) 17:26, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The way you have worded it doesn't fit in well with the rest of the section. – Quadell ^(talk) 17:33, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

This has been discussed before. See Talk:Jesus/Archive 120#Disruptive edit to introduction.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 17:39, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

The extended quotes seem to be WP:SYNTH or WP:OR - they are not discussing arguments from silence in the context of Jesus are they? (If the sources are used elsewhere in the article, my objection would probably apply to that location as well)Gaijin42 (talk) 17:41, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

If you think it is synthesis, would you like to remove it? Strangesad (talk) 05:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Van Voorst, the other source in that section, is a pastor: Less expert on historical method and less objective about Jesus than the sources in question. If they contradict his view, his should be removed. His view doesn't really contradict theirs, however, it is just slanted more to the critical side, without mentioning that argument from silence is considered legitimate but imperfect (like all historical tools). As for being applied to jesus, no they don't apply it to Jesus, but I didn't add these sources, I'm just clarifying what they say. I would support removing all text on argument from silence from this article. Strangesad (talk) 17:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Voorst is discussing the argument from silence directly in the context of the historicity of Jesus. That nobody has refuted that argument, within the topic of Jesus, is not a cause to remove his statement. Have proponents of the argument from silence discussed the appropriateness of that argument? "Argument from silence" is widely described as a logical fallacy. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:02, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

It is not widely described as a logical fallacy, as the sources contained in this article demonstrate. The logical fallacy stuff is a strawman: arguments ex silencio do not prove anything, so it is a fallacy to use them in that way. But no historical arguments proves anything. Read the sources. I did nothing but add quotes from the sources already in the article, and change the wording to reflect what they actually say. If you suddenly don't like the sources, delete them. Van Voorst, however, is much less reliable on historical method than historians, so it would be odd to keep him and delete them. Strangesad (talk) 18:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Since those historians are not commenting about Jesus at all, they are a clear violation of WP:SYNTH (used anywhere in the article probably). voorst deos not suffer from that problem. Gaijin42 (talk) 18:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should user:Strangesad be topic banned from Jesus articles? His consistent promotion of a fringe viewpoint is disruptive imo.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 18:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

AN/I is thataway. This page is for discussion of article content itself. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:24, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Such concerns are best raised at one of the noticeboards, like WP:AN, rather than here. John Carter (talk) 18:27, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree that ANI is the proper venue, but I think his behavior is unlikely to be considered disruptive enough for a topic ban. (Which is not to say that I don't think he is disruptive. I do. Just that the bar for a topic ban is REALLY REALLY disruptive :)) Gaijin42 (talk) 18:36, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I wasn't sure if a topic ban was appropriate, which is why I started this thread. Thanks for the clarification.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 19:03, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

On the other hand, warnings or temporary blocks for disruptive editing and edit warring are a much lower hurdle to cross. Gaijin42 (talk) 19:11, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Yes, Strangesad should most definitely be topic banned. Strangesad has spent months edit warring on this topic. Strangesad has actively encouraged sockpuppetry to get support for her fringe views. Strangesad has verbally attacked countless of users who disagree with her, and admins who take decisions she doesn't like. While the actions this August would be enough for a topic ban if isolated, Strangesad's enormously disruptive behavior over this same topic during the spring this year came very close to seeing her topic ban already back then.Jeppiz (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

For those of you who don't know, a discussion on what to do with Strangesad has been started here: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Request swift admin intervention to prevent further disruption to the Jesus article by User Strangesad.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:46, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the notice, FT. Now that the case at WP:AN has been started, I do feel very strongly that discussion of possible sanctions should not be continued here. This article talk page is not the right place to hold a side discussion. Shall we perhaps manually archive this section, without waiting for Miszabot's 21-day period? --Stfg (talk) 22:18, 9 August 2013 (UTC)\

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed minor change in first paragraph

I propose changing

Christians believe Jesus to be the awaited Messiah of the Old Testament and refer to him as Jesus Christ, a name that is also used by non-Christians.

to the following (change in bold):

Christians believe Jesus to be the awaited Messiah of the Old Testament and refer to him as Jesus Christ, a name that is also used by some non-Christians.

This is a minor change, but give the edit warning, I am bring it here for discussion. I propose this because it is inaccurate to state unequivocally that non-Christians use the term "Jesus Christ". Adding "some" would further clarify the point that many use the term "Jesus Christ" and treat it has him name, but acknowledging that not all people do this. Note, I considered using "most" but I think that would only apply to English-speaking countries and we do not have any data saying what percentage of people use the term. The use of "some" seemed the most neutral to me. Thank you. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:58, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure. The proposal looks okay to me. We can do that or just remove the "a name that is also used by non-Christians" part.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 20:05, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Adding "some" looks to me like an improvement. --Stfg (talk) 21:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree and apologies to EvergreenFir for the revert. I just saw the edit notice and thought it was one of those things that was going to cause a huge explosion. --Laser brain (talk) 21:12, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Completely in favor of adding "some", good proposed change.Jeppiz (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)