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May 30

French Wikipedia

I posted a question on what seemed to be the "French Wikipedia" version of the RD. First of all, I couldn't even log in. Is my username and password only good for English Wikipedia? Why wouldn't my account be good for ALL versions of Wikipedia? Second, as this was my actual question: Is the link to something called oracle in the French Wikipedia the same as the RD here? If so, we should all feel lucky that we're English speakers, as the French version, even though it's the third largest after English and German, leaves much do be desired. Loomis51 00:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The different language Wikipedias are different websites, so the usernames and passwords are not shared between them. (Was there ever a plan to implement a "Wikimedia passport" or something?) fr:Wikipédia:Oracle is indeed the corresponding page to en:Wikipedia:Reference desk. You can tell because there are interlanguage links between them. —Keenan Pepper 00:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The Spanish version is even worse. It is just a landfill of questions that rarely get answered. We are fortunate to have the nice, organized, and managed Reference Desk.--El aprendelenguas 01:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

m:single login specifications. Been talked about for long time. -lethe ^{talk +} 01:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll bet the disparity between English and other language resources, even for second and third most spoken languages on Earth, is huge in all aspects of the internet. I.e. not just the wikipedia reference desk, but also the available help on usenet, mailing lists, message boards, everything, all probably sucks if you ain't speaking english. -lethe ^{talk +} 02:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I'm certainly grateful that my native language is English.--El aprendelenguas 02:25, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, I rather wish I had grown up in Geneve or Mumbai or Singapore so that my native language were something else, but I still spoke English fluently. -lethe ^{talk +} 07:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Having been born and raised in Quebec, despite being a native English speaker, my French skills are considerable. I gave it a "3" on wiki:babel out of modesty. It's really somewhere between 3 and 4. El aprendelenguas is right. Although I have no Spanish skills whatsover (aside from a few "Berlitz" level phrases), I checked out the Spanish version of the RD and was still able to pick up on the point that with a few rare exceptions, it's just a bunch of questions that no one seems interested in bothering to answer. I understand now why we seem to get such bad spelling and grammar at the RD. It's probably people with a limited knowledge of English posting a question here simply because the English RD is vastly superior to that of other languages (If the French and Spanish versions leave much to be desired, one can only imagine how limited the Dutch or the Polish versions, for example, are). In the future, therefore, in answering questions posed at the RD I'll try to keep that in mind and try not to nit-pick about questions posed in less than perfect English, and I suggest we should all do the same. Not everybody out there was raised speaking the most useful language on the planet! Loomis51 09:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Loomis, although I am speaking about the internet in general now, I also find a lot of mistakes by US'ers like :"Their you can find a car. There coming. They where angry." Mistakes like that are usually made by people who pronounce English properly but don't know how to spell, and not by people who learnt the language, as they had to read books for that. Well English is the most useful language, but sometimes I wonder whether it could have been different (remember Esperanto?). Despite usefulness, it isn't the most 'normal either' : you practically never use the simple present tense, and for negations you use an auxiliary verb (I do not work. We just say : I work not.) But I agree, it's a vicious circle, I KNOW if it's not a regional matter, English Wikipedia will be vastly superior, so I usually ignore the Dutch speaking Wikipedia, and I don't contribute to it a lot...Evilbu 10:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Saying you never use the simple present tense is a bit exaggerated. You used it 17 times in that post. —Bkell (talk) 16:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Evilbu, only towards the end of your mention did you allude to the fact that you're Dutch. At first I couldn't understand who you were talking about when you spoke of "you" and "we". Also, what specifically is a US'er? was that simply some sort of caps lock typo or are you referring specifically to Americans? I also disagree with your suggestion that most, if not all English mistakes that we see on wiki are made by native English speakers because the only way a foreigner can learn English is by reading books. From personal experience, "books" are perhaps the worst way to learn a language. True fluency (including good spelling) is much more readily achieved through real-life experience. For example I was taught French throughout school and like most other anglophone students, very little actually sunk in. It was only when I entered the work force that I TRULY began to REALLY attain some degree of fluency in French.

On the other hand, you're correct when you say that everything else being equal, it's rather odd that English, being a language with relatively confusing, illogical, incoherent and inconsistent rules somehow became the world's most commonly spoken language. For simplicity, coheherence and consistency, much better candidates would be Russian or Hebrew (of the languages I'm familiar with). In Russian, for example, it's virtually impossible to misspell a word because 99% of the time, the correct spelling is simply the phonetic spelling. On the other hand, these languages have nowhere near the richness English has. For example in Hebrew, there is only one word for "smart": "chacham". That's it. Whereas in English, depending on the subtlety and the particular nuance you wish to convey, you have a wide variety of options for what the range of attributes that "smart" seems to encompass (e.g. intelligent, bright, clever, sharp, astute, brainy, witty, knowledgeable, wise etc...). Loomis51 23:45, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not Dutch. I speak Dutch though. The Dutch wikipedia is essentially there for Flanders, the Netherlands and Suriname. A US'er is someone with as nationality : from the United States. If there is a better word for that, please tell me. Actually learning from books is very good! I see that in school here, the generation behind me has to do all sorts of fun stuff "write poetry, do a little acting,..."...but in the mean time the fundamental elements of Dutch/French/English are neglected! But that is actually not what I meant. I meant : there are certain mistakes that someone who has learnt that language by reading (and then I mean, by a teacher writing it on a blackboeard) won't make. The French sometimes write "J'ai travailler. Vous mangé. Taiser-vous". When you pronounce it, there's no real difference. But I learnt to speak those words at the same time I learnt how to write them. (I on the other hand always guess the gender wrong and use 'subjonctive' when it's not necessary...) It's the same in Dutch, our verbs (usually) end in en/d/t/dt. That's how you get the dreaded d-t-errors in Dutch. I don't think someone who learnt the language will make these mistakes.

"American" will do for a person from the USA. But see an interminable debate at Talk:Use of the word American. There's one thread there that's indented 19 levels (!!). JackofOz 10:13, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Saint Peter's Square in Rome

What was the first name of this Square.

What does the word vatican means?

Thank you for your help.

Saint Peter's Square is the first name, actually, since it was only built in the 17th century. The name "Vatican" doesn't really mean anything in and of itself. It's the name of the hill the Vatican City is built on; as that article says, "It may have been the site of an Etruscan town called Vaticum", which would make the "Vatican Hill" basically "the hill where Vaticum was". Hope that helps. —Zero Gravitas 07:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

This site seems to conclude that Vatican means "City of Prophecy", and gives historical and linguistic reasons for this. Probably the real facts are lost. --Seejyb 20:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Greek translation

How do you write 'salt' in Ancient Greek? Thank you. 172.128.94.79 02:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Alternatively, what does this: "υμεις εστε το αλας της γης εαν δε το αλας μωρανθη εν τινι αλισθησεται εις ουδεν ισχυει ετι ει μη βληθεν εξω καταπατεισθαι υπο των ανθρωπων" say? 172.128.94.79 02:59, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

τό ἅλς or ἅλας is salt. το αλας της γης is salt of the earth. -lethe ^{talk +} 04:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Matthew 5:13 in Koine, in English (KJV). "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." -lethe ^{talk +} 04:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yay! Thank you muchly! 172.146.162.194 00:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

meaning of the sentence

ساث هس ةغ لاثقسف بقهثىي ثرثق ه اشي pls give me the meaning of this sentence as soon as possible thjanks shahana

It's in Arabic script, but it isn't in Arabic, and there are some strange features (such as ta marbuta at the beginning of a word and alif maqsura in the middle of a word) which would seem to indicate that it's garbled in some manner... AnonMoos 21:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It is English, typed on an Arabic keyboard layout. It says "she is my berst friend ever I had". I guess "berst" should be "best". --Cam 01:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

How ever did you figure that out, Cam? Daniel (‽) 19:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Punctuation, Parentheses and Quotation Marks.

I've always had trouble deciding where to put the period in a sentence that ends with a closed parenthesis or closed quotation marks (or both). (or both.)? The correct placing of comas is also a bit confusing.

For example, I'd greatly appreciate if someone could tell me which of the following puntuations are correct, and which aren't:

• 1) She arrived at the party on time (and in good spirits).
• 2) She arrived at the party on time (and in good spirits.)
• 3) As Ted wrote in his letter, "she arrived at the party on time".
• 4) As Ted wrote in his letter, "she arrived at the party on time."
• 5) As Ted wrote in his letter, "she arrived at the party on time (and in good spirits)".
• 6) As Ted wrote in his letter, "she arrived at the party on time (and in good spirits.)"
• 7) As Ted wrote in his letter, "she arrived at the party on time (and in good spirits)."
• 8) She arrived at the party in good spirits, (on time of course,) and fashionably dressed.
• 9) She arrived at the party in good spirits, (on time of course), and fashionably dressed.

Thanks! Loomis51 12:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The full stop/period or comma should be outside the parentheses. Quotations have a couple more subtleties depending on whether what is being quoted is a full sentence, or a quote within speech, Quotation mark explains it better than I can. Oldelpaso 12:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• 1 is correct, 2 incorrect. The way to check this is to take out the brackets and see if the sentence would still be properly punctuated, which 1 would be.

• Make sure to remove not just the brackets but everything inside the brackets as well, otherwise both 1 and 2 would be ok and the test would fail. JackofOz 13:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sorry - that's what I meant (honest). --Richardrj 13:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• 3 and 4 - I'm never sure about this myself. It might depend on whether "she arrived at the party on time" is at the end of a sentence in the letter. If it is, then 4 might be correct, 3 incorrect. If not, vice versa. I would also be tempted to use a colon, rather than a comma, after 'letter'.

• It shouldn't have to depend on whether the sentence being quoted is at the end of a sentence in the original. As "she" is not capitalised, there is no indication it's from the start of the sentence either. It's just a string of words take from the original text. I'd say 3 is right, and 4 is wrong. See below for my reason. JackofOz 13:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• 5, 6 and 7 - the same applies as above, I believe. 5 or 7 would be correct, but 6 incorrect (the full stop should be outside the brackets, as in this sentence).

• I was taught the only things that can end a sentence are a full stop (.), question mark (?) or exclamation mark (!). Brackets and inverted commas are not ok. That would make 2, 4, 6 and 7 wrong. I would accept 5 as being correct. But I believe in the U.S. and probably Canada, it's considered ok to end a sentence with inverted commas, so 7 would be ok there. JackofOz 13:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• It's fine to end a sentence with a parenthesis. (But only if it's the whole sentence that's being parenthesized.) —Bkell (talk) 15:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• 8 and 9 - both of these are incorrect because the comma after 'spirits' is superfluous. Take it out, and 9 is correct. --Richardrj 12:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with most but not all of what Richardrj wrote. If the original quote included the period/full stop, then 4 and 7 are right no matter what. But if the original quote did not include the period/full stop, then 4 and 7 are right in the U.S. (and Canada?), while 3 and 5 are right in Britain (and elsewhere?) In 8 and 9 both commas have to be taken out: "She arrived at the party in good spirits (on time of course) and fashionably dressed". Angr (talk) 13:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that both commas have to be taken out of 9. "She arrived at the party in good spirits, and fashionably dressed" is fine. --Richardrj 13:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I would recommend removing both commas. If you choose to retain the comma for some reason, then you should write the following.

• She arrived at the party in good spirits (on time of course), and fashionably dressed.

I think it's fair to say that a parenthesized phrase should never come immediately after a comma. Neither 8 nor 9 is correct, and neither is the following.

• She arrived at the party in good spirits, (on time of course) and fashionably dressed.

The rules for using parentheses are pretty simple; everything inside the parentheses has to make sense as a phrase on its own (so it can't end with a comma), and the entire parenthesized phrase should be able to be treated as a "black box" that can be freely removed from the sentence. —Bkell (talk) 15:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Just as a parenthetical (ha ha) comment - if these were my sentences, I'd be tempted to leave out the brackets altogether. Not only do you avoid the above pitfalls, the sentences IMHO read better without them. Stuff in brackets should be a kind of aside, a secondary comment which is not as important to the reader. In these sentences, being on time, fashionably dressed and in good spirits all seem to contribute equally, and nicely, to the reader's sense of her state of mind. --Richardrj 16:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to say that I'm really glad this question was asked because it is also something that I'm never certain about myself. Somewhere along the way I learned I was doing it the wrong way, so then I would think "do it the opposite way of how you feel." It's always a bother to learn to correct yourself that way though, because as soon as you start doing it the right way the "do it the opposite way" thought pattern still kicks in and you start to get confused. Btw, it is correct to have quotation marks outside of the period/full stop; I even went ahead and checked The Call of Cthulhu on WikiSource and it does them that way. So #4 is correct. Might be regional differences though. --SeizureDog 06:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

4 is correct in the US, not in Britain I think. So yes, regional differences. Skittle 09:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel that having the period or comma outside the quotation marks looks sloppy. I was taught - under the tutelage of a fine instructor - that the period and the comma are in the "inside gang," never to be put outside the end of a quotation. Reading left-to-right, up-to-down as we do, it seems like a more proper "bookending" of the quotation to have the marks encapsulate the periods and commas. So I really have to say, as far quotation marks are concerned, 4 and 7 are the most proper. Nothing personal against British English at all, certainly, but as most of us don't usually speak punctuation anyway (e.g., "I went to the store comma but they were sold out period") I would be firmly behind the tidier version which sweeps the commas and periods into the quote. Lemonsawdust 05:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If you're looking for neatness, maybe you subjectively feel 4 is neater. I subjectively feel putting punctuation inside the quotes when it's function is outside is less neat, but that is probably my upbringing. If the question is correctness, 4 would be considered incorrect in Britain, correct in the US. Neither of our views on neatness matter if the person is looking for correctness in something important (such as a job application, piece of work, etc). In Britain, 1,3 and 5 are correct. In the US, 1, 4 and 7 are correct. If you're going for neatness, you can make your own mind up! Skittle 12:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

In US English only 1, 4, and 7 are correct. The correct version of 8/9 would be "She arrived at the party in good spirits (on time[,] of course)[,] and fashionably dressed." Whether to use the commas is a stylistic choice. Tesseran 22:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Valve/Washington accent

While listening to the audio commentary in Half-Life 2: Lost Coast, I noticed that many of the developers (Valve Corporation, based in Bellevue, Washington) share a similar accent, which notably has a long, "posh" 'o': as in "Lorst Cohst." As I don't know much about American accents, I was wonderingly idlely if this is a regional Washington accent or just a coincidence. Thanks! Sum0 15:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... in American accents that still distinguish between the vowels of cot and caught, lost usually has the same vowel as caught (and so would sound like lorst to an Englishman like you). However, most people in Washington don't distinguish the vowels of cot and caught, so I would have expected their pronunciation of lost to sound to you rather like RP last except with a shorter vowel. It is, of course, entirely possible that the voice actors used for that game are from the East Coast of the U.S., in which case their lost really should sound like lawst. Angr (talk) 16:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I live in Washington, but people here pronounce it like lawst cost (ascii ipa: [lAst koU:st]). However, they are some people who say Worshington. --Chris S. 01:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

french genders

hi,

many eons ago my french teacher told us that in french, problems (le problem, le crime, etc) are generally masculine and solutions (la solution, la police etc) are feminine. is this actually true? if so, is it true for any other languages with genderised nouns? cheers! --87.194.20.253 18:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

What about "la maladie" and "le médecin"? Or "l'énigme" and "le chiffre"? You can probably find any feminine-masculine combination, since they don't necessarily have a single counterpart. Was your teacher a woman by any chance? Adam Bishop 19:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

OMG she was! i cant believe i fell for the one... thanks! 87.194.20.253 19:04, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

LOL, also very typical for female French teachers is to always write elle/il instead of il/elle, even though the latter is the convention. Evilbu 09:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Assault teams signs

Hello, sorry to bother you but i´m looking for the sings the military and police enforcement uso when there must be absolute silence and the meaning of them, i hope you can help me, thank you very much

I'm sure there must be an article somewhere... but till I manage to find it, here's a nice link: [1] (PDF) --212.202.184.238 07:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

May 31

adjective modified by adverb

we should say "the always growing speed" or "the always-growing speed"? any difference between American and British usages here?--K.C. Tang 02:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I would say no hyphen (I'm British). --Richardrj 04:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't use that form of words. I'd say "ever-increasing", and hyphenate it. JackofOz 04:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

i guess "ever-increasing" is kind of a set phrase... so it doesn't count... indeed the "always growing" example is taken from the Formula One article (read the first paragraph)--K.C. Tang 05:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Overuse of hyphens in such compound modifiers as this is something of which I'm guilty, but in this case I'd not use the hyphen (although I certainly think that Jack's locution is superior to "always growing"). Hyphen, which counsels that hyphens are generally not used in noun-noun or adverb-adjective compound modifiers [except where omission might engender confusion], and The American Heritage Book of English Usage [2] (Compound adjectives formed with an adverb plus an adjective or a participle are often hyphenated when they occur before the noun they modify...; however, when these compounds occur after the noun, or when they are modified, the hyphen is usually omitted.) aren't definitive and thus not of much help. We can't even Googlefight this one; Google necessarily omits hyphens in searches such "always-growing", such that "always-growing" and "always growing" (and in any event most of the returns aren't for the use as a compound modifier) return the same results. Joe 06:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

language origins

I am a new user so please bear with me. My question is: Did language originate from one place, i.e. africa and then travel colloquially throughout the world or did it spontanteously emerge/burst out of various regions, i.e. asian/arabic vs.latin/germanic, etc.

you may want to take a look at Origin of language--K.C. Tang 06:51, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Is flew a hyperbole?

Can a word be considered a hyperbole if its associated meaning has become so common that it is an actual definition of the word? To illustrate the problem, here's my example:

"Mary flew to the kitchen to put out the grease fire."

Now obviously, the main meaning of the word "fly" is "to move through the air". However, the very next meaning is "to move quickly". So can "flew" truly be considered a hyperbole? Or is it just a simple usage of the word?--SeizureDog 07:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Metaphor? --212.202.184.238 08:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I was going to call it a metaphor, but it's not comparing anything.--SeizureDog 05:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you're confusing metaphors with similes. JackofOz 05:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the operative sentence in our article is, "One effect is that hyperbole becomes habitual until the word's force is weakened by overuse and the word gets to literally mean what it has been used as." Once we've reached that point, it's extended meaning rather than hyperbole. Henry^Flower 10:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks.--SeizureDog 05:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It definitely started as a metaphor - it's implicitly comparing the motion of the woman with the motion of (literal) flying. Over time, though, it's metaphorical meaning has changed into simply a second meaning of the word. I'd still consider it a metaphor, though not everyone might. It's definitely not a hyperbole, though - those are deliberate exagerrations. If you had said that she broke the sound barrier running to the kitchen, then that would have been hyperbole. But I'm sure you've been told something similar millions of times before :). Grutness...wha? 06:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

If I've told you once, I've told you a billion times: "Don't exaggerate!" :--) JackofOz 09:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

History of words, terms, and expressions

History of words, terms, and expressions

My questions concern the origin and meaning of words/terms/expressions in the English language and English/Colonial America/American culture.

1. Including past and present uses and definitions of words, and words that are no longer included in current dictionaries

> What specific form of language study (or specific Etymology), breaks words (mainly vocabulary) down into sections, revealing the root of that word and its’ additional attributes, that when chained together (as in the word), find the literal meaning of/description of/influence on/origin of, that word ?

EXAMPLE:

Fortnight Lily = ( Fortnight = { Old English f owert ne, fourteen + Old English niht, night } = { Middle English fourtenight, alteration of fourtene night, fourteen nights Old English f owert ne, fourteen; kwetwer + Old English niht, night; nokwt. } = { A fortnight is a unit of time equal to two weeks: that is 14 days, or literally 14 nights. The term is common in British English, Hiberno-English and Australian English, but rarely used in American English. It derives from the Old English feowertiene niht, meaning "fourteen nights". } = { A period of 14 days; two weeks. } )

+

( Lily = { Etymology: Middle English lilie, from Old English, from Latin lilium 1 : any of a genus (Lilium of the family Liliaceae, the lily family) of erect perennial leafy-stemmed bulbous herbs that are native to the northern hemisphere and are widely cultivated for their showy flowers; broadly : any of various plants of the lily family or of the related amaryllis or iris families 2 : any of various plants with showy flowers: as a : a scarlet anemone (Anemone coronaria) of the Mediterranean region b : WATER LILY c : CALLA LILY 3 : FLEUR-DE-LIS 2 } )

= Fortnight Lily

EXAMPLE: Vernal Equinox = ( vernal. Etymology: Latin vernalis, alteration of vernus, from ver spring; akin to Greek ear spring, Sanskrit vasanta 1 : of, relating to, or occurring in the spring <vernal equinox> <vernal sunshine> 2 : fresh or new like the spring; also : YOUTHFUL - ver•nal•ly /-n&l-E/ adverb )

+

( equinox. Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French equinoxe, from Medieval Latin equinoxium, alteration of Latin aequinoctium, from aequi- equi- + noct-, nox night -- more at NIGHT 1 : either of the two points on the celestial sphere where the celestial equator intersects the ecliptic 2 : either of the two times each year (as about March 21 and September 23) when the sun crosses the equator and day and night are everywhere of equal length The word equinox derives from the Latin word for equal night )

= Vernal Equinox

EXAMPLE: Autumnal Equinox = ( autumn. Etymology: Middle English autumpne, from Latin autumnus 1 : the season between summer and winter comprising in the northern hemisphere usually the months of September, October, and November or as reckoned astronomically extending from the September equinox to the December solstice -- called also fall 2 : a period of maturity or incipient decline <in the autumn of life> - au•tum•nal /o-'t&m-n&l/ adjective - au•tum•nal•ly /-n&-lE/ adverb )

+

( equinox. Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Medieval Latin; Middle French equinoxe, from Medieval Latin equinoxium, alteration of Latin aequinoctium, from aequi- equi- + noct-, nox night -- more at NIGHT 1 : either of the two points on the celestial sphere where the celestial equator intersects the ecliptic 2 : either of the two times each year (as about March 21 and September 23) when the sun crosses the equator and day and night are everywhere of equal length The word equinox derives from the Latin word for equal night. ) = Autumnal Equinox

2. Expressions with historical roots > What is the term for the study of expressions and their historical origin and original reference, especially unsavory/demeaning/racial, gender specific, etc., used in the past and especially in the present (without regard to their meaning), in the U.S.A.?

EXAMPES:

Cotton Pick’n Hands

Indian Giver

3. Referring to questions and answers to above 1. & 2. > Can you refer some good internet sites that would be helpful as searches/references/collections for these topics?

I do hope that you are able to understand what I am trying to ask. Please let me know if you need any further clarification.

Thank you in advance for your time and concern. Sincerely, Katiebugggg13

While it's impressive you took the time to write all that, but you should've probably first taken the time to read the "Do your own homework" bit at the top of this page. --BluePlatypus 07:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance. I did indeed read the “Do Your Homework” section above. The only reason that I posted here, was that I was unable to find my answers on-line. I am asking for specifics that I was unable to find. Have no fear, “History of Words, Terms, and Expressions” is not associated to anything, but my own curiosity and want to explore. I thought I might get some help from someone who could point me in the right direction.

So, if you are out there, I would appreciate any constructive assistance you might share.

Thank you.

Katiebugggg13 01:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that it's just etymology, to be honest. I don't think there's a name for someone who looks at the origin of words and phrases more specific than that. Daniel (‽) 19:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

word for someone who performs a property valuation

Hi,

Is there a word that means someone who performs a property valuation? I have looked up valuer but it seems not to exist. Thanks David Vaughan

I think 'Appraiser', may be the term you are searching for. Katiebugggg13

According to Real estate appraisal, such a person is called a "property valuation surveyor". In Australia, we just call them "valuers". (Where did you look, btw? Google has over 1.5 million hits for "valuer".) JackofOz 09:57, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled by this; Google shows only three hits for the phrase "property valuation surveyor", and two of them are Wikipedia...I think I'll wander over there. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In South Africa, Property Valuator --Seejyb 02:25, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In the UK, a "surveyor", strictly "Chartered Valuation Surveyor". Jameswilson 03:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Or even just 'Chartered Surveyor'. CCLemon 11:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

For the U.S.A., I believe it depends on whether the person is employed by a government body or is independent. A person employed by a county to perform property valuation for the purpose of determining property taxes for said property is called an "assessor". The independent appraiser is used by realtors and prospective buyers to determine what the property is worth in the real estate market. I've heard that it is best for a prospective buyer to get at least 2 independet property appraisals before making an offer on the property. Often the county assessor's property valuation differs from the independent appraiser's. What happens then to the property value depends on local laws and regulations. DDGordon. --70.230.192.62 16:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Hypothetically..."

I frequently find myself in situations where someone asks me a question beginning with "Hypothetically..." and then they continue with a condition that is very improbable, or even preposterous. Is the a name for this "hypothetical" statement, or a fancy retort? Thanks!--El aprendelenguas 21:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

A hypothetical statement is a statement that is not true, but is posed for the sake of discussion and is usually followed by a question.

Example:

"Hypothetically, let's say I had not answered your question. What would you have done?"

Because I DID answer your question, the question is hypothetical. That is, I'm asking you a question about something that never happened. As for if it's a fancy retort, I think you must be really confused on the meaning of "retort". A retort is an ANSWER to a question, and has nothing to do with hypotheses.--SeizureDog 05:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Most mundane hypothetical questions seem to be not only improbable and pointless, but they cannot take into account all the possible variables, so they are impossible to answer sensibly. "I would put a sock in your mouth," is often a good retort. But some of the more intelligent ones are useful as thought experiments. --Shantavira 08:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

June 1

más que

In Spanish, can this mean 'even if' or 'even then'? ( as in Tagalog- 'maske' or 'maske na')?--Jondel 00:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. --Chris S. 01:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see this in the dictionary. I can say 'Más que vivo (vive?) en Japon, no significa que hablo/e japones.'  ?(Even if I live in Japan, this doesn't mean I can speak Japanese.) (feel free to correct)or 'Más que sea el presidente/dueño, no significa que no necessita trabajar.' (Even if I/he am the president/owner, this doesn't mean, I/he does'nt have to work.)--Jondel 01:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the short reply earlier, was in a hurry. Anyway, I don't use the construction myself, I prefer aunque. But I think it's used por más que + subjunctive. So, por más que viva en Japón, no significa que hablo japonés. However, I'd say aunque vivo en Japón, no hablo japonés. Since I am not a native speaker, I suggest checking with one just to make sure. And I guess for some reason, we Filipinos simply removed the por and just used más que. --Chris S. 06:38, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info Chris.--Jondel 07:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Por más que + subjunctive is better translated "No matter how much...." For example, "Por más que se esfuerce, nunca podrá mover la peña." = "No matter how much he tries, he'll never be able to move the boulder."--El aprendelenguas 20:44, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks El aprendelenguas.--Jondel 09:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

English for Maths

Do you say:

1. The "number" or "numbers" of students who like different sports is/are given as: 23,40,33 etc..

3. The bar graph shows the "number" or "numbers" of students in 5 different classes.

4. Let's compare the "number" or "numbers" of tourists in three holiday resorts.

An authority says it is "number" but I think it's "numbers" in each case. How do you decide?

I think they mean different things (although I can't quite articulate what the difference is...hmm). Adam Bishop 03:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Number of" sounds OK to me. The fact that the second part of your sentences includes a plural doesnt matter. (Thats what you mean, isnt it?) Jameswilson 03:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd use "numbers/are" in 1. (you're actually citing the numbers in the sentence), and "number" in 3. and 4. (to emphasise that for each class/resort you're discussing a singular number). That said, I speak EngEng; I know AmE has different rules for plurals. -- EdC 01:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's "numbers", definitely. There's more than one number in each of your 3 examples.

• In example (3), if you drew the bar graph you'd write the word number along one axis, but when talking about the graph you'd say "The bar graph shows the numbers of students in 5 different classes".
• In example (4), you're not talking about an aggregate tally of all the tourists in the 3 resorts, but the number in each resort separately. That means you're comparing 3 different numbers with each other. There have to be at least 2 things for any comparison to be made. You can't refer to those things as "the number".JackofOz 04:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Either is fine, but 'number' would be short for 'number in each class/resort'. Henry^Flower 09:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

i'm plumping with the "authority" - regardless of how many students there are (in all cases) the number representing them is still singular. e.g you dont say "the numbers 50" but i doubt anyone would pull you up on it 87.194.20.253 19:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"We play three sports in this school: hockey, baseball and tennis."

• "The number of students who play these sports is 75". That's a tally of all the students who play some form of sport, whether it be 1, 2, or all 3 sports. That's only a single number.
• BUT "The numbers of students who play these sports are 20, 30 and 40 respectively". That's a separate tally for each sport, and there are 3 numbers. This is what Q.1 was about. JackofOz 01:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. We haven't arrived at any conclusion though. :)

This comes by way of a COP (now University of the Pacific) Honors Graduate; High School Math and Music Teacher, and Junior College Math Teacher. He also writes test problems for a well known publisher.

His reply to your question, as written -

If you are referring to one number, use the singular, "number".

If you are referring to more than one number, us the plural, "numbers".

Katiebugggg13 00:15, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Quite a few

Means a lot right? I proofread Japanese to English translations and this caused a lot of trouble since my Japanese boss's were insisting this meant 'quite few'.--Jondel 04:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it means "a lot", and paradoxically almost the same thing as "quite a lot". It certainly means more than "few" or "a few". Btw, there's no such recognised English idiom as "quite few". If you wanted to stress that it was a small number and no more, maybe you'd say "only a few". JackofOz 04:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd disagree with you there. "Quite few" is a recognised English idiom. It tends to be more English English though. Example: "Altough we were quite few in number, we managed to beat them soundly." It's probably not wise to use it much though, as "quite a few" is more common, and it's easy to slip an "a" in.--SeizureDog 05:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. JackofOz 05:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks SeizureDog and JackofOz.--Jondel 07:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

No mention of "heaps" Jack? Just something I've been wondering about for a while now. Do you have some sort of translation software that you use to translate Australian into English or do you actually speak the way you write?

I actually have a VERY good friend down in Sydney with whom I chat with as much as possible. I've known her for some 10 years now, but she never ceases to surprise me with that unsual Aussie fascination with both diminutives and downright peculiar sounding Australian inventions (probably borrowed from Aboriginal languages). She's a musician who plays the "Clarry", goes to "Uni" and loves to "willywogga" in the "gandaloo" in her spare time. (Ok, so I made up the last two). Loosen up and speak a little Aussie once in a while, Jack! You're beginning to make me suspect that you're actually a "Pom"! Loomis51 05:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronouncing Japanese

I'm moderately new to Japanese and I'm trying to make sure I have the pronunciation as good as possible, at least until I can meet a real Japanese person to help. Most of it is pretty straightforward, but I have a couple of rather subtle issues/questions.

1. The Japanese "R": Japanese phonology describes it as "a lateral apical postalveolar flap," which is fine - I've taken enough linguistics courses to grasp that concept. But it also says that to English speaking ears it sounds "most like d before /i/, and most like l before /o/" and among Japanese speakers I've noticed what sounds like various pronunciations before various vowels. So, ignoring the effect of dialect, are there real differences here and what are they?
2. The Japnese /s, z/: The article describes them as laminal, and my textbook as "pronounced further forward in the mouth," but I'm not sure how this differs from General American. Though raised in central Alabama my default accent is General American, and I could swear I pronounce those phonemes as laminal alveolar fricatives. Am I missing something, or do I perhaps just have an idiosyncratic English pronunciation (or is this a "got to hear it to be sure")?
3. The Japanese "shi" and "chi": Though that's how we're told to pronounce them, I notice that the chart at Japanese phonology doesn't list a voiceless postalveolar fricative or a voiceless postalveolar affricate. Is "shi" then a voiceless alveolar affricate, or what's really going on here?

Thanks for all your help. --George 06:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The only part of your question I can answer is (3). The Japanese "shi" and "chi" are an alveolo-palatal fricative and affricate respectively: they're on the chart at Japanese phonology as ɕ, tɕ. Angr (talk) 09:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

That's tremendously helpful. Thanks very much. --George 16:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

translation to english from german.

I have bought a chocolate named "MACADAMIA NUSS". All text on it is written in german which I dont understand. I am reproducing the part of text which I think is about its ingredients. Can someone please help me out by translating the text, which I think is German, to english (What does its name mean?).

Thank you in advance.

The text is as follows:

--Start of text--

Zuaten: Zucker, Kakaobutter, Vollmilchpulver, Macadamia-Nüsse (10%), Kakaomasse, Milchzucker, Haselnüsse, Magermilchpulver, Emulgator: Sojalecithin, Malzextrakt, Aroma.

Kann Spuren von Mandeln enthalten.

Kakao: 30% mindestens in der Milch-Schokolade.

--End of text--

There may be a spelling mistake or two. If you find any kindly ask me to retype the word. I want to know if any of the ingredients contains egg as I am a pure vegetarian. I wish to make it clear if before I enjoy the chocolate.

P.S.: It is Swiss Made.

--Siddhant 10:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't contain egg, but it does contain milk, so if you're a vegan you'll have to give it to someone else. (E-mail me for my private address where you can mail the chocolate to.) It says: "Sugar, cocoa butter, powdered whole milk, macadamia nuts (10%), cocoa solids, lactose, hazelnuts, powdered skim milk, emulsifier soy lecithin, extract of malt, flavorings. May contain traces of almonds. Cocoa: At least 30% in the milk chocolate." Angr (talk) 10:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And it's called "macadamia nut". — QuantumEleven 11:08, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Pain in the sitter

Hi everyone! In the French Wikipedia, somebody is asking us what a "pain in the sitter" means in English. Is that like a "pain in the ass" or something completely different and much more formal? :) Thank you very much.

Not at all different, and not at all formal. :) Henry^Flower 13:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your answer. It helps us a lot :)

Origin and meaning of expression "ripped and snorted."

I have always heard the term "ripped and snorted" as praise for tearing into a project and getting it done. (Example: Well now, you have just ripped and snorted on this paint job!) Friends say "ripped and snorted" comes from horse racing, as does the term "ripping and racing" now used to describe a very busy day. (Example: Whatcha doin? Rippin' and racin'!)

I was surprised that my usual search engines could not provide origin or meaning on "ripped and snorted." Can you?

Thanks for your time and attention.

e-mail removed

Gee, it sounds like surfer dude lingo for like, cathcing a great wave man, but wiping out in the sand to close to shore. Or it sounds like doing a few lines of, you know, cocaine man. :) DDGordon --[[User:]] 16:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Can't help with the answer, but I removed your e-mail address. See the instructions above, unless you want tons of spam. --George 16:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen "ripped and snorted", but "ripsnorting/rip-snorting" and "ripsnorter" are common slang. It basically means strong, and possibly emotional, like a "rip-snorting good time", a "ripsnorter of a storm", etc. Generally with a genial, fun connotation. User:Zoe|^(talk) 17:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) It's a neologism based on ripsnort v., to go boisterously, to rollick. Ripsnorter: Someone or something exceptionally remarkable in appearance, quality, strength, or the like; spec. a storm, a gale. Rip-roaring (OED). --Shantavira 17:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

There may be a horse racing connection from the snorting noise a horse makes when it's flat out caused by the flaring or "cracking" of it's nostrils as it expands the folds of the nasal tissue to get maximum air through ,like the plaster strips American athletes use.Hope you can visualise this,if not listen to a horse after a hard race(often seen on TV,The Derby is coming up so an opportunity presents itself there.)---Hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 08:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

conjugation of spell

I spell You spell We all spell for ice cre.. wait nevermind

Which is correct: spelled or spelt. As in: You spelled/spelt that wrong. Is spelt just a shorthand way of saying spelled?

They're both correct. Spelled is typically American English, spelt British. Henry^Flower 19:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

In theory 'spelt' is the past participle of the verb 'to spell'. So it is correct to say 'I spelled' but 'I have spelt'. In practice, I wouldn't lose sleep over it. --Richardrj 19:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Your theory is unorthodox. :) It's both: [3]. Henry^Flower 19:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And here I thought you could only eat spelt. Rmhermen 19:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Ladakh in Tibetan script

How is Ladakh (pronounced लद्दाख़) written in the Tibetan script (used in Ladakhi language.) Is ལདཁ correct? deeptrivia (talk) 21:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

June 2

Journey plural

(moved from the Humanities Desk)

Why journeys and not journies? --Username132 (talk) 02:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Y → IES rule only applies when the Y follows a consonant. The plural of boy isn't boies either. —Keenan Pepper 02:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

And there are exceptions to every rule. That well known American political dynasty is the Kennedys, not the Kennedies. JackofOz 02:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

An exception is monies (used in a few set phrases like "public monies") from money. --Cam 02:49, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW this should definitely be on the language desk, not humanities. —Keenan Pepper 02:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It is kennedys because Kennedy is a proper noun, it doesnt apply to proper nouns. Boies just looks funny. It seems to me that the rule doesnt apply if the letter at the end of the stem is a vowel. Show me an exception.

The exceptions to that statement are those words that end in -quy: soliloquy becomes soliloquies, obsequy becomes obsequies, and so on. —Bkell (talk) 06:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

A few years ago I compiled a list of irregular plurals in English, and so I had to define exactly what constituted a regular plural, in my opinion. This is the set of rules I came up with:

Regular plurals are formed by following these steps.

• Words ending in -quy form plurals by changing the -y to an -i and adding -es.
  • colloquy → colloquies
  • exequy → exequies
  • obloquy → obloquies
  • obsequy → obsequies
  • soliloquy → soliloquies
• Words ending in -ay, -ey, -iy, -oy, and -uy (except -quy) form plurals by adding -s.
  • Wednesday → Wednesdays
  • journey → journeys
  • convoy → convoys
  • guy → guys
• All other words ending in -y form plurals by changing the -y to an -i and adding -es.
  • baby → babies
  • potency → potencies
  • lady → ladies
  • enemy → enemies
  • party → parties
• Words ending in -ch in which the -ch makes a /sh/ or /ch/ sound form plurals by adding -es. This includes most words ending in -each, -oach, -eech, -ooch, -ouch, -lch, -sch, or -tch. The -es ending is necessary to produce a pronounceable word.
  • sandwich → sandwiches
  • nonesuch → nonesuches
  • peach → peaches
  • approach → approaches
  • speech → speeches
  • pooch → pooches
  • grouch → grouches
  • gulch → gulches
  • starch → starches
  • watch → watches
• Words ending in -ch in which the -ch makes a /k/, /kh/, or another sound other than /sh/ or /ch/ form plurals by adding -s. In these words, the -es ending is not necessary to produce a pronounceable word.
  • stomach → stomachs
  • Czech → Czechs
  • hexastich → hexastichs
  • loch → lochs
  • eunuch → eunuchs
  • monarch → monarchs
• Words ending in -sh, -s, -x, or -z form plurals by adding -es. If the word ends in -as, -es, -is, -os, -us, -az, -ez, -iz, -oz, or -uz, the final letter may be doubled before adding -es. The -es ending is necessary to produce a pronounceable word.
  • glass → glasses
  • relish → relishes
  • quincunx → quincunxes
  • waltz → waltzes
  • bus → buses or busses
  • fez → fezzes
  • schnoz → schnozzes
• Words ending in -i or -o form plurals by adding either -s or -es. Most -i words pluralize by adding -s. Many -o words derived from Spanish, Italian, and other Romance languages add only -s.
  • kiwi → kiwis
  • chili → chilies
  • alkali → alkalis or alkalies
  • hero → heroes
  • piano → pianos
  • radio → radios
  • silo → silos
  • tomato → tomatoes
  • banjo → banjos or banjoes
• All other words form plurals by adding -s.
  • apothem → apothems
  • floe → floes
  • liar → liars
  • machine → machines
  • raisin → raisins
  • ten-year-old → ten-year-olds

Obviously not all English words will follow these rules. Those that do not are called irregular plurals, and must be memorized. But these rules will give the correct spelling of the plural for most English nouns. —Bkell (talk) 06:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

We have an article on English plurals which may cover this. Rmhermen 17:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation

It pseudo prnounced "sudo" or "saydo"

"Sudo". Rhymes with Judo. Angr (talk) 06:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Those aren't the only 2 options. Down under, we say "syudo". JackofOz 07:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard it pronounced "saydo". Doing so would lead to a dangerous homophony between pseudomasochism and sado-masochism. Angr (talk) 08:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In British English and possibly Australian English as well, [juː], commonly referred to in English nomenclature as "long u", occurs in many words that American-English speakers pronounce with [u] or [uː] instead. For example, British-English speaker pronounce duty /ˈdjuːtiː/, but American-English speakers say /ˈdutiː/. Regarding the original question, Webster's Third New International Dictionary lists only "sudo" (or in IPA, /ˈs(j)uːdou/) as a pronunciation for pseudo.--El aprendelenguas 20:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Certain East Coast dialects of American English have the same pronunciation. But it seems to be dying out -- you hear it more in old movies. Though Erika Slezak uses it on One Life to Live and it drives me crazy.  :) User:Zoe|^(talk) 02:00, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Amusingly, in Russian, it is pronounced pseh-oo-do or psey-oo-do, with the 'p' pronounced. It sounds silly to my American ears, even though it's much closer to the original Greek pronunciation. Tesseran 22:46, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In Russian, it's /ˈpsʲevdə/. And psycho is /ˈpsʲixə/, we tend to pronounce that 'p'. Conscious 12:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

(I changed your title to the correct spelling 82.131.189.233 16:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC))

It's pronounced like that in Finnish too, and I guess in every language other than English as well. JIP | Talk 13:18, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure I've seen American movies or TV shows where someone pronounces it "sway-doh". JackofOz 23:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

What does this mean?

Arabic http://www.royalaccord.com/images/arabic_text.gif http://www.royalaccord.com/images/arabic_table.gif and dutch?

DEN HELDER DUIK - EN BERGINGSBEDRIJF

Welkom bij Den Helder Duik en Bergingbedrijf. We zijn gevestigd aan de noordkust van Nederland en we zijn de nummer 1 duik- en bergings firma van het land. Met over 30 jaar ervaring in het bergen van schepen, onderwater onderzoek en industriele ervaring, moet je ons hebben wanneer je iets te bergen hebt.

Den Helder Duik en Bergingbedrijf is een fictieve website. Het is niet echt. Klik aub op de contact button bovenaan de pagina voor meer informatie. DUIKEN EN BERGEN Den Helder Duik

Duiken en Bergen zijn maar twee van de dingen die wij doen bij Den Helder Duik. Bovendien geven we advies op het gebied van onderwater boren, olie-platform onderhoud, kabelleggen en vele, vele andere gebieden.

DH: ERVARING IN BERGEN

We hebben ervaring in Bergen over de hele wereld, inclusief de Noordzee, de Atlantische Oceaan, de Indische Oceaan en de Middellandse zee. We hebben een emergency team dat overal op locatie kan zijn binnen 24 uur.

Den Helder Duik en Bergingsbedrijf is een fictieve website. Het is niet echt. Klik aub op de contact button bovenaan de pagina voor meer informatie Den Helder Duik en Berginsbedijf PROBLEEM AAN: GROOT OF KLEIN

We zijn trots op onze duik expertise. Met een team van 5 duikers, 8 ingenieurs, en 12 onderwater specialisten kunnen we elk probleem aan: groot of klein. We zijn altijd beschikbaar om onze klanten te woord te staan, 24 uur per dag. Daarom is den helder de eerste bergingsfirma met customer support.

Klik aub op de link rechts bovenin voor meer informatie over ons. Den Helder Duik en Berginsbedijf BOVENDIEN GEVEN...

Duiken en Bergen zijn maar twee van de dingen die wij doen bij Den Helder Bergen. Bovendien geven we advies op het gebied van onderwater boren, olie-platform onderhoud, kabelleggen en vele, vele andere gebieden. BERGINGSWERK IN DE NOORDZEE

Onze lokatie in Den Helder leent zich uitstekend voor bergingswerk in de Noordzee. Er zijn twee helikopter platforms in de buurt, waardoor onze ingenieurs en duikers snel bij vele van de olievelden in de buurt kunnen zijn.

Tevens bieden deze platforms een handig aankomstpunt voor onze vele internationale klanten

I don't have time to translate all of that but essentially it says they are a dive and salvaging company. Their location would be excellent for salvaging in the Nordic sea, they have two helicopter platforms neaarby, such that their engineers and divers can reach many of the nearby oil fields guickly. These platforms also serves as a convenient arrival point for many international clients Evilbu 10:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it also say that the company is fictitious, and doesn't exist for real? deeptrivia (talk) 21:09, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, in a clumsy way (it says the website is fictitious, rather than the company) and if you go to their website (which is quite real), and click contact, as they ask you to do, it says that the website is part of a game where the players have to search the site for hidden clues. David Sneek 22:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Use of "the"

Why do we say, "Let's go to McDonalds" but with the name of a hotel, for example, we say "Let's go to THE Hilton."?

My guess is that it is decided by the founder of the company. Also, one would say: Lets go to THE Mcdonalds if they were specifying a single one.

Compare "Let's go to Donald's house" and "Let's go to the old hotel." --KJ 14:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I get the part about specificity, e.g., "Let's go to the McDonalds on Main St." "Donald's house" has kind of confused me, though (lol). How 'bout this: "Let's go to Blockbuster then check in at the Hilton."

"The" is the definite article and defines one specific thing. There is only one Hilton in any city, so it would have to be the Hilton. But there are usually plenty of McDonalds and Blockbusters knocking around. --Shantavira 15:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

That still doesn't explain why it's not a McDonalds. I suspect that's because, all McDonaldses being the same, you're talking about the institution rather than the place per se. Henry^Flower 16:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd think that to be the other way around. You say "Let's go to a restaurant", or "a hotel", only if you don't have a specific one in mind. Anyway I think this is a pretty moot discussion, because I don't think there's any rule at all involved. It's just a matter of convention. It varies with the English dialect. E.g. in US English you "go to school", but are "taken to the hospital". Brits are taken "to hospital". And Indian English drops the definite article even more often. --BluePlatypus 18:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All grammatical rules are 'matters of convention'. To clarify:

• 'a McDonalds': one of many MacDonaldses considered as separate entities;
• 'the McDonalds': a particular outlet;
• 'McDonalds': McDonalds considered as an institution. Henry^Flower 18:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

All grammatical rules are matters of convention. Yes. And conventions are somtimes well-defined and sometimes not. This is an example of one which is not well-defined, and which varies across English dialects and usage. Attempting to define a simple rule is futile at best, misleading and wrong at worst. I already gave counterexamples to the rules you gave. Americans often say "taken to the hospital" even when not implying some particular hospital. --BluePlatypus 05:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

the easy way to answer this is that there are unsaid, but implied, words. to decide how to address an institution, consider the unsaid words: Let's go to McDonald's (Restaurant); Let's go to the Hilton (Hotel), where McDonald's shows possession (Jim's place, Sam's car), whereas Hilton is a proper name on it's own, with its description or by its description alone (the Hilton, the Hilton Hotel, or the hotel). It is just as one might say the Police, the Police Station, or the Station.

another situation in which the implied words are considered to decide which word to use is in the case of the he/him - she/her and I/me dilemma. apparently american children are no longer taught how to know which is proper anymore, but it is very easy to figure out. just add in the implied, but unsaid, words, and the answer is clear. first of all, I/me always comes second. now let's see an example: "___ and ___ want to go home," or "they want to come home with ___ and ___." selecting from she/her and me/I, just add in the implied words and which word to use is obvious - she (wants to go home), and I want to go home, therefore, she and I want to go home. they want to come home with her, and (they want to come home with) me, therefore, they want to come home with her and me. easy, huh?

Easy, but wrong. In any of the examples above, you could replace McDonalds with Pizza Hut; no possession implied or possible. Henry^Flower 21:04, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure there are many cities with more than one Hilton. But you'd normally say "the Hilton", whether you had a particular one in mind or not. Answering the question "Where did you stay when you were in New York?" with "The Hilton" would not be to suggest there was only one Hilton in NY. To distinguish one from another, "I stayed at the Hilton on Main St, not the Hilton in Upper Downer Heights". Compare this with "I ate at the McDonalds on Main St, not the McDonalds on Smith St". Or would you say "I ate at McDonalds on Main St, not McDonalds on Smith St"? Younger people would probably say the latter, older people probably the former.

On a tangential note, I've often noticed the use of "the" is sometimes gender-related. At the deli section of the supermarket, a man will usually say something like "I'd like 10 slices of double-smoked ham and 300 grams of Jarlsberg, please", but a woman will usually say "I'd like 10 slices of the double-smoked ham and 300 grams of the Jarlsberg, please". Don't believe me? Watch and listen next time you're there. JackofOz 23:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone. You've been a big help! I'm gonna print this out for future reference.

Sorry to come in late, but I think the correct spelling is McDonald's, with the 's, as in Tiffany's or Ben's, etc. McDonald's standing for McDonald's place/restaurant. This alone seems to me to explain that there is no article. (You could have the McDonalds' of course, if the firm had been created by the whole family, not Ronald alone.) Aurelien Langlois 13:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Two problems with that. It wasn't founded by Ronald McDonald, but by the brothers Dick and Mac McDonald. That might suggest the apostrophe should go after the s, however the name they chose had it before the s. It's a proprietary name that could have been spelt any way they liked without offending any spelling rules. But this is moot in any event, because the company considers its real founder to be Ray Kroc, not anyone named McDonald. Whether one uses 'the' before it has nothing to do with where the apostrophe is. JackofOz 20:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Which way is correct?

"I'm trying to figure out what the problem is."

"I'm trying to figure out what is the problem."

I see #2 on the internet a lot but it seems wrong to me.

I'd go for #1 every time. --Richardrj 14:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

don't trust how people talk on the internet, or in real life for that matter. Many words and conjunctions have been integrated into english. A lot of people use them except they are not in any dictionary. As for the question, #1 is right. #2 is like half a question and half a statement.

See Prescription and description for a discussion. Personally, I use the first form. --KJ 14:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say "I'm trying to figure out what the problem is." or "I'm trying to figure out 'What is the problem?'", suggesting 'What is the problem' is a specific phrase I'm trying to figure out :-) English derives a lot of its meaning from the position of words. 'what is' indicates a question. Skittle 14:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I think these responses are correct -- and fast, too :)

Sorry for the late thought, but both sound correct to me. What introduces a noun clause. In the first sentence, it is the predicate nominative: "...the problem is what." In the second, it is the subject: "...what is the problem." Therefore, the argument becomes something like "Which is correct: 'Penguins are a type of bird' or 'A type of bird is penguins'?" In other words, the only difference is personal preference and emphasis. In several languages (English, Spanish, and Latin, for example), the word that introduces a noun clause can "jump around" in the clause and fulfill a variety of functions. Compare "The baseball is what the player hit," where what is the direct object of hit even though it precedes the verb and "The baseball's design is what has enabled the players to hit more homeruns," where what is the subject of has enabled. By the way, it surprises me we don't have articles for these terms, unless they are listed under different names.--El aprendelenguas 20:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't have any logical reason why I think the second phrasing is incorrect, but it really sounds wrong to me. You can use what as a subject in sentences like "I'm trying to figure out what goes in this hole" and "I'm trying to figure out what makes the sky blue," but when a form of be is the verb it should always come at the end: I'm trying to figure out who you are. I'm trying to figure out when the party is. I'm trying to figure out what this red thing is. I'm trying to figure out what that loud noise was. I'm trying to figure out who I am. —Bkell (talk) 20:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Bkell brings up an interesting point. I hear what as the subject of the copula much less frequently. This infrequency cause me to see the clause as more like a question and with more enphasis. If I reword the last example to "I'm trying to figure out who am I," it sounds more like something a serial killer would say after he starts to see himself as a monster.--El aprendelenguas 21:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think the person who said #2 is like half a statement and half a question is on the money. If you were asking a question, it would be "What is the problem?", where the normal subject-verb order is reversed. But this is not asking a question, it is stating that I am trying to figure something out. That something should not be in the form of a question. Hence #1 is correct and #2 is not, but you will often hear #2 spoken colloquially, which probably accounts for the confusion. What one hears in everyday speech or reads on the internet, and what books say is correct English, are often miles apart. JackofOz 22:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

A little knowledge of German sheds a lot of light on this question, I think. In German, all subordinate clauses have their main verbs in final position. Thus in German you would say "I'm trying to figure out what the problem is" (in translation). English, as a Germanic language, has this grammatical feature, though it's not as strong. For example, you would say "I want to know whether he comes from Alabama". In this subordinate clause, the verb follows the subject, but precedes the rest of the clause. If you want to add an interrogative main clause, then it's "I want to know: does he come from Alabama?" In this case, the verb comes first. The question is only whether you want a subordinate clause or a main clause. The particular wording of the sentence under consideration suggests subordinate clause, so #1 is correct. -lethe ^{talk +} 23:05, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for the help :) I really appreciate your time and effort.

Aren't they both right? — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:43, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Three Spanish Verbs

I know if a verb in Spanish directly follows another, you conjugate the first one and leave the second one in the infinitive. But if there are three right next to each other, what do you do to the third one. Like for "I want to eat to live." How would you say that? Is "Quiero comer por vivir" correct? That's the only example I can think of. Any others? What would you do in those situations? Thanks. schyler 17:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's better to say "Quiero comer para vivir." Here's an example of a "triple verb": "Quiero poder hablar español." = "I want to be able to speak Spanish." Here's a "quadruple verb": "Quiero poder saber comunicarme en español." = "I want to be able to know how to communicate in Spanish." Because of the versitility of language, it is theoretically possible to form nearly endless chains of verbs. Be careful, though. The "double verb" rule commonly employed by Spanish teacher to help students remember to say "Yo quiero ir" instead of incorrectly *"Yo quiero voy" isn't a characteristic of Spanish. Rather, it's the government of verbs. For example, querer can take a subordinate clause or infinitive as an object. Ayudar, on the other hand, must take the preposition a before an infinitive in the argument of the verb ayudar (e.g. "Yo lo ayudé a hablar español." = "I helped him speak Spanish."). Watch out for these prepositions that break up verb chains or the so-called "double verbs."--El aprendelenguas 19:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to point out that it's le ayudé, not lo :)--RiseRover|^talk 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, according to the Diccionario panhispánico de dudas of the Real Academia Española, both lo and le are acceptable with ayudar. I wanted to make sure I wasn't becoming too much a loísta. :) --El aprendelenguas 21:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Here it's much more common to use it as intransitive (or to "keep the dative" as the Buscón says), so "lo" does sound weird. But if you want to say it, say it by all means. :) --RiseRover|^talk 21:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Having learned Spanish as a second language, I appreciate your input about how the construction sounds to native ears.--El aprendelenguas 22:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I picked up Spanish in the street and never learned how to use "lo" and "le" properly :( My formula has been to just copy the natives.

Reading a Japanese-spelt name

Hello everyone,

I'd very much like to know how to pronounce a certain character's name. She is featured at http://namco-ch.net/namco_x_capcom/character/index.php , second one from above (the blonde with a spear and pistol).

Here's the name image: http://namco-ch.net/namco_x_capcom/character/img/name_02.jpg

I'm not sure what kind of glyphs are those (Katakana, Kanji, etc). Can someone help me out? Thanks!

--Pedro.

The two on the left are kanji, the ones on the right are katakana (to tell you the pronunciation of the kanji, which is 'shaomuu'). Henry^Flower 21:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The stuff between parentheses in the JPG seems to read Shaomuu, as you could see at Katakana. AnonMoos 21:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, guys! I've already passed the word. Great job. :) --Pedro

Sunny Jim (or Sonny Jim)

I have heard this name, "Sunny Jim" used as a multi-purpose name referring to someone to whom the speaker is talking. It seems to be used primarily by speakers of British English. An example would be: "Listen here, Sunny Jim, I told you.....," as someone would call another person "Bubba," or "Toots," or whatever. Does anyone know the derivation of this expression? The only thing I can find is a reference to the jockey/trainer, Sunny Jim Fitz-something, but I haven't found anything explaining why his name might have been used in such a way. Thanks in advance for any help.

I doubt this has a specific origin. "Sonny" is a general term of endearment (or patronisation) for any male younger than you, and "Jim" is a placeholder name like Joe Bloggs, or John Doe; so this is just a combination of the two. The "sunny" spelling I think is a pun on the original, used to refer to people's disposition (as with Jim Callaghan and presumably this jockey). Henry^Flower 21:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The official name of the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge is the James "Sunny Jim" Rolph Bridge. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 00:13, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Sunny Jim was a character in an ad campaign for Force {see here) Jameswilson 01:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If Americans don't use it, I'd be more tempted to see it as 'sonny Jim'. It's used a bit like 'young fella-me-lad', but tends to carry accusatory overtones that the latter doesn't always. Skittle 12:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Americans use it. My brother-in-law used to call his son "Sunny Jim" when he (the son) was crying. Angr (talk) 14:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

June 3

In Hindsight?

A friend of mine recently told me a story about how he had become insensed because of a journalist repeatedly using the term 'in hindsight'. He emailed the guy, explaining that he had got it wrong and that he should be using 'with the benifit of hindsight' instead. The journalist replied very quickly, and was most gracious, saying that he appreciated the feedback and that he would try not to fall into this 'faux amis' again. Or words to that effect. But the more I think about it, the more I feel that there is absolutely nothing wrong with 'in hindsight' and that 'with the benifit of' is just a flowery way of saying the same thing. Now I need some hard evidence to prove it! Any help would be hugely appreciated. Thanks.

Well, if you're a descriptivist, then this and this provide pretty strong support for your argument. I'm inclined to agree with you, though, that the original is fine even in a prescriptivist sense, and it certainly sounds better. -Elmer Clark 07:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't see anything the least bit wrong with saying "in hindsight". You do agree that you can say "in retrospect", right? And "hindsight" and "retrospect" mean the exact same thing, "a look back". --BluePlatypus 18:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I need a song title translated, please

I have searched for the meaning of this song "Si Vuelves Tu" but I don't exactly understand what it means. I would appreciate any help and it would satisfy the curiosity of one of my friends as well!

Thank You

"If You Return" (I don't know the meaning of the song 'cause I've never heard of it but that's what the title means :)

It's something very much like....

If You Return

I saw you leave, yesterday by that door,

I said goodbye, with grief in my dead soul, and you heard,

Well, if you return to my door, which I did not open to you........

If you return, you have to want me, have to cry (for) me, have to worship me,

If (you) return, (our) life should not be what (it was)

(sorry, I have no idea what "aqui" might mean)

She sounds like an awful lot of trouble to me. There's plenty more fish in the sea. ;)

TheMadBaron 14:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I found a second verse of the song. Here it is:

I return to see you, standing next to that door

that I left open for your goodbye,

but remember well, if you come to my door,

I won't open it for you so that... (seems to be aposiopesis)

If you return,

you have to love me

you have to cry for me

you have to worship me

If you return, life isn't supposed to be

what it was when you were here.

It won't be the same, if you return.

Translated by El aprendelenguas 21:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC).

June 4

Nostril puff signifying laughter

I'm searching for a word to describe the short nostril puff that is frequently used as a form of subdued laughter. It isn't correct to call it "laughter", nor "puffing", nor "exhalation". I'm sure everyone is familiar with this phenomenon, but I've never known of a word for it. Does one exist? Bhumiya (said/done) 03:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A snort, maybe? СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 03:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

When I hear "snort", I think of something louder and sharper, while the phenomenon in question is a very soft, almost whispery puff.Bhumiya (said/done)

I always thought the standard Internet exclamation "heh" was an approximation of this sound. Adam Bishop 07:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's interesting. You may be right. It's the only thing that really comes close. Bhumiya (said/done) 07:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Ripsnort?---hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 07:36, 4 June 2006 (UTC))

Ask Stephen King, he always knows the right words to use. — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:45, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Chortle is something like what you mean. --Cam 19:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Chortle is too loud and too animated; I've always taken heh to mean something you do with your mouth. I think we need to invent a word. Henry^Flower 20:21, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I had used the nonce word "nosepuff" to describe the sound, and the onomatopoeia "fhh!" to approximate it. But "heh" seems close enough for my purposes. Bhumiya (said/done) 02:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Betelgeuse

Other than as "Alpha Orionis", what is the correct way to pronounce this star's name? If I say "Bayt'l-zhurz" (as it would be in French) it's met with "oh, you mean Beetl-joos" (as in the Michael Keaton movie). if I say "Beetl-joos" it's met with "oh, Bettel-goyzer" (as in German - and presumably the original Arabic). So which is it? Grutness...wha? 08:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

According to Betelgeuse, the Arabic is actually yad al-jawzā. I don't recommend trying that one. Consensus on the talk page seems to be 'as in the film', and FWIW I agree. Henry^Flower 08:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I always said it "Beetle-juice". — The Mac Davis] ⌇☢ ญƛ. 09:42, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just looked it up in my dictionary, and it says we're all wrong. It says the primary stress can be on the first or last syllable, but that the last syllable rhymes with furs - "beetlejers". Henry^Flower 09:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no single correct way to pronounce the name. Different dictionaries give different pronunciations. I suggest you pick a pronunciation from a dictionary that you like and boldly use it. --Cam 19:39, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

FWIW M-W offers three possibilities, none of which are the same as my dictionary's. [4] Henry^Flower 20:18, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also heard 'Bettle-geez' with a hard 'g' like in 'geese'. But who knows? Skittle 12:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Preposition "to"

Why can we say: "I'm going to Canada." "I'm going to school." but we can't say: "I'm going to home."

The short (and admittedly unsatisfying) answer is that 'go home' is an idiom, and idioms just have to be learned. Henry^Flower 12:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's no doubt a very old expression, perhaps a holdover from the time when English was inflected and prepositions were not always necessary. Like Henry Flower says, it's now become an idiom. On a related point, you generally say "yesterday", and not "on yesterday", although I have heard one educated person (my school principal) consistently say the latter. However, I've never heard anyone say "to home". Peculiar. Bhumiya (said/done) 13:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This construction also appears in other languages. In Russian, there are a couple of prepositions used to indicate motion toward something. But with the expression "going home", the word "doma" (home or house) changes to "domoi" and no preposition is used. JackofOz 14:08, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

W/r/to the on yesterday locution, this section of the American and British English differences article is enlightening. Joe 20:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

'Home' is not a single location as such, it's an abstract concept, and isn't the same for everyone. So you don't need the "to". If you substitute 'my house' for home, you would, however, re-add the "to" - 'I'm going to my house'. Proto||type 10:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't really work. The concept/place distinction applies to other examples (school, hospital etc.) but it's the reason we don't need an article, not the reason we don't need a preposition. Henry^Flower 18:22, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

English syllable stress

What is statistically the most common syllable to be stressed in most English words, e.g. the penultimate? the first syllable? etc.--Sonjaaa 12:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

That's an impossible question to answer, as there are words of different lengths (the pattern for three-syllable words might be different from two-syllable words, for example) and there are different ways of describing the patterns (is accent stressed on the first syllable, or the penultimate?); the way you count these things will affect your statistics. Personally, when in doubt I go for the penultimate, which I think is at least as good a guess as any. Henry^Flower 17:01, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

5 vowels convert to English

When people whose languages only have 5 vowels (aeiou), such as Spanish Japanese or many African languages, pronounce an English word like "word" or "bird" with a thick accent, which of these 5 vowels do they tend to prefer?

• [wed], [bed]
• [wok], [bod]
• [weak], [bead] (some sort of dipthong?)
• or other?

--Sonjaaa 12:23, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Japanese people would say /waːdo/ for word. Generally, people tend to substitute vowels (edit: unfamilar ones) with other vowels (edit: familiar ones) that are closest in vowel diagrams. --KJ 15:33, 4 June 2006 (UTC) --KJ 15:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The article Non-native pronunciations of English would interest you. Note also that the vowel common to word and bird is not pronounced the same in English English and American English, where it is rhotacized, so accents may also differ depending on where the speaker learned English as a second language.--El aprendelenguas 19:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

During my English classes, I was once criticized for pronouncing "work" indistinguishably from "walk". Conscious 09:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

chinese name

How is : Ho-Shang Kung written in traditional chinese ? ( He is a famous writer if a Tao Te Ching commentary ) Hhnnrr 13:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

河上公. Henry^Flower 13:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you , but is this traditional or simplified ?Hhnnrr 21:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

It's both- these characters are the same in each system. Henry^Flower 21:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Literary Present

I have recently been informed that Lit Present is appropriate when contributing to an article which summarizes fictional events. Such as in comic book articles. However, at what point do we intertwine Lit Present and Lit Past? Like some wikipedians who claim to be "professional writers" (even though in most cases there is no proof of these claims), I also hold a Bachelor of Arts in Creative Writing. Therefore, I feel my edits are valid ones. In most novels and fictional universe guides (Star Wars, Star Trek), past events are not summarized in present, but in past tense. I fail to see how it makes sense for all articles to reflect Lit Present, when the events being summarized are no longer current, but historical within the said fictional universe. I would be more than willing to site examples in order to resolve my concerns when I am contacted by an administrator who is a professional writer (such as a copy writer, technical writer, or even an editor). Thank you. Chee-sen 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

This is really a Help Desk question, not a Reference desk one. It's cite, by the way. :) Henry^Flower 16:53, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say it is a Reference Desk question too. Furthermore, literary present must be destroyed! Adam Bishop 19:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's become standard PBS documentary practice and I hate it! --Cam 19:44, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You're right, Henry Flower, it is "cite" not "site"! I am a terrible person! Why would it be help desk? Isn't a help desk for technical issues, not grammatical? Chee-sen 20:04, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia:Help desk is for any questions about Wikipedia. As I understand your post, you're wondering why/whether the lp should be used on Wikipedia, not whether it's grammatical. If you are asking whether it's grammatical, then I say yes, but that whether to use it is a question of style, not of correctness. Henry^Flower 20:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I know I should How to do

the thing happened during in my secondary school. my father have a good friend; he treat everyone friendship, I think I have a good uncil. but only my mother didn't like him. one day all of us set together eat lunch. my father said some about uncil's things, then mother said don't talk him, he eat neals in my familiy now month, he not honest, don't trust him. i heared this thing I'm very angry sag to my mother "why do you treat him in this way," and quarraled with my mother, I felt I have a selfish mother at now. I hatred her. I'm no cry, but mother's tear continue at eye. she didn't said anything. suddently, I felt I hurt my mother's heart. All house in silence, A moment, Father and old sister see me same time. The moment I felt I wrong . Two day ago , mother didn't say anything with me. m heart very uncomfortable.. I realized I lose mother love the world change not perfact for me.

Mother love is great . If you have terible, no people can always help you . except mother and father. they heart always for you.

please, giveing same love to you parents. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Linyuan89 (talk • contribs)

• Done. --Halcatalyst 19:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

See also PostSecret. --DLL 21:32, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Latin translation help

I am attempting to add a translation of some quoted latin text to a stub I just created from the catholic encyclopedia. Looking at the article might give your some context for the translation: Alphonso de Spina.

The text is: Incipit prohemium Fortalitii Fidei conscriptum per quendam Doctorem eximium ordinis minorum anno MCCCCLIX in partibus occidentis. Which I have word for word looked at with a latin dictionary; best I can make out, given context is something like: "Beginning in 1459, in order to prevent the faithful from falling into perfidy, I present my excellent teachings in the battle against the menace" (of hell I presume). I'm sure that contains a bit of the gist but is quite wrong. Any help appreciated.--Fuhghettaboutit

Wow. You'd be fun to play telephone with! I'm not near a dictionary, but it's closer to "Here begins the first part of "Fortalitii Fidei" (Stronger Faith) written by a certain distinguished doctor in minor orders in the year 1459 in the West." - Nunh-huh 22:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Nunh-huh has it, although "prohemium" is the preface or introduction to the book rather than the first part of the text itself, and we put the book titles back into the nominative when translating them so it is Fortalitium Fidei. If he's part of the "ordo minorum" in 1459, he's probably a Franciscan. Adam Bishop 23:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Much appreciated. --Fuhghettaboutit 23:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A question about the name of the book. The full title was apparently "Fortalitium fidei contra fidei christianae hostes". I was wondering about that "fortalitium". It seems to be a word compounded from "fort-" and "-litium". For "fort-" = "strong" I'd expect "e" or "i" to follow, whereas for "fort-" = "luck, chance", I'd expect the "a". But this is 15th century Latin, not the stuff I learnt, so "e" may have become "a", and the root still mean "strong". Then the "litium" (?gen pl) part gets added, which I'd take in the context to mean "of legal arguments / quarrels" . So my translation would be: "Of strong arguments of faith", "Of strongly expressed arguments of faith". How would one put that in modern English? "Strong defence of the faith against the enemies of Christianity"?. "Concerning Strong Arguments of the Faith Against the Enemies Of Christianity"? Or is the "litium" considered here as a singlar neuter, which would explain the "-litii". Then it might be "A strong argument of faith against...", "A strong defence of the faith..." And when did litium become neutral singular, if lis litis is F. Or does that happen when the word becomes part of a combined form? Can one learn this medium aevum Latin on the net? --Seejyb 19:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, to start at the end, the way I learned Medieval Latin is just by constantly reading medieval texts. It's not a different language, but just imagine if Latin was still a living language into the fifteenth century, instead of ceasing to exist at some arbitrary point in the 6th century or whenever...that's medieval Latin. They have to use a lot of words that didn't exist in classical Latin, but which are based on normal classical words. They learned Latin the same way we do, by reading lots of classical texts. Sometimes there are some strange medieval spellings, but not in this word. In fact, it has nothing to do with chance or luck at all - it comes from fortis, strong, which became the noun fortium, stronghold, or fortress, etc, and from that the word "fortalitium" was made, also meaning stronghold or fortress. I'm sure the suffixes have specific meanings that I don't know, so I can't explain that. So it means "Fortress of faith against the enemies of the Christian faith". I hope that makes sense. However, since this is the 15th century, he's probably influenced by Renaissance humanism, and that's a whole different subject...(we do have Medieval Latin and Humanist Latin articles, though.) Adam Bishop 20:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It always surprises me when people say that Latin "ceased to exist" or is "a dead language". Neither of those is remotely true. JackofOz 20:31, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I beg to differ on the latter. A dead language is usually defined as one that is no longer learned as a native tongue, and Latin certainly qualifies. - Nunh-huh 20:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

When you learn classical Latin (or at least when I did) there is the impression that it is dead, it did not survive past the second century, and that it survives only in pretentious or scientific English borrowings :) But it was certainly alive and vital in the Middle Ages. Adam Bishop 20:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

If that's the definition, I don't care much for it, Nunh-huh. JackofOz 23:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought a living language was one that was changing to reflect usage, or some such thing? So it qualified as long as people were writing in it and speaking in it, as they were in the Middle Ages. It certainly went through changes in the Middle Ages, with words like 'sanguine' attracting different endings. If you do a lot of singing, you find that French Medieval Latin is slightly different to English Medieval Latin which is slightly different to German Medieval Latin, because it was being used and adapted. Skittle 11:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

June 5

Today today today

I dunno where to put this, so I'll put it here. What is it called when you see a word so much that it doesn't look like a word any more? Vitriol 04:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Defamiliarization? AnonMoos 15:19, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I know the feeling -after typing the same word a large number of times in a short space of time, I become absolutely convinced that I am speeling it wrong. And Wikipedia still doesn't have a Spell-checker! Rmhermen 15:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Rmhermen, sp. "spelling" (I would have corrected it, but I couldn't resist the irony). Daniel (‽) 19:22, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you consider the possibility of deliberate irony? On another note, please do not correct spelling mistakes you find in other people's posts. Outside article space, it is considered rude.Skittle 21:43, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Except that he did not correct it, he merely pointed out the error (and with good humour). I, for one, think that the policy of never drawing attention to grammar or spelling errors for fear of offending people is plain dumb. It fosters and rewards ignorance, which is surely the antithesis of what we're all here for. Wikipedia is all about being bold in changing the posts of others if some improvement is warranted. The ref desk is certainly a special case in that it is dialogue-based, but that doesn't mean we have to be so utterly PC towards each other that the whole process of communication descends into some sort of pit of stygean ordure. On the one hand some people complain that Wikipedia doesn't have a spell checker, then on the other hand we're told it's rude to correct the spelling mistakes of others. Let's get real, people.  :--) JackofOz 23:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't refering to pointing out errors, but to editing other people's posts. "I would have corrected it" implied sie was going to. And yes, sie didn't, which is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with pointing out 'I think you mean "spelling".' or doing as sie did, but actually editing the other person's post can be perceived as rude and lead to confusion. For example, you don't know for sure that it wasn't intentional, or making a point. You may have misunderstood their meaning. It may make the later conversation confusing to follow. And it can feel violating, if other people edit your conversational words. It is not about leaving errors unchecked, it is about not changing other people's words without their consent. I also appreciate a kindly spelling/grammar correction being pointed out, as it enables me to learn and avoid the mistake a second time. However, I feel angry when someone edits my words. It also makes it hard to remember what I have and haven't done, which I already have a problem with. Skittle 10:53, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. JackofOz 11:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I for one,appreciate a kindly spelling/grammar correction ..hotclaws**==(81.136.163.210 08:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC))

Translation from French Wikipedia.

Can someone please translate this article into English from French-- [[5]] on Georges Sagnac.

As English wikipedia does not have an article on it, I can create it after translation.

Thank You in Advance.

P.S.-Please also copy the translated text on my user page.

--Siddhant 07:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, the place to request translations of French Wikipedia articles is Wikipedia:Translation into English/French. Angr (talk) 08:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't really have the time (and both languages aren't my native either) so I won't do the translation. But "des ammées 70" doesn't look too correct.

The French page is corrected. We have an article for this guy here. The text looks like a translation from French.

Alas, Npovers and Citationnerds may destroy it, as the level of the French WP is base and almost primitive compared to this WP. So take a quick look quickly. --DLL 21:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Question about a question

Does the following sentence require a question mark at the end? "In practice, the question facing us is how are we to know how many roads a man must walk down." --Shantavira 13:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No it does not require one. Sentences only require a question mark if they're direct questions to the addressed. JIP | Talk 13:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

No. It would, however, require a question mark if it were rewritten as follows: In practice, the question facing us is "How many roads must a man walk down?" --DavidGC 14:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

You have confused yourself by your wording which, while correct in conversation, leads to this apparent conflict when written. I would reword it "In practice, the question facing us is how we are to know how many roads a man must walk down." since this avoids any expectation of a question mark. Yours could also be rewritten 'In practice, the question facing us is "how are we to know how many roads a man must walk down?".'. Skittle 14:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Not all questions are necessarily questions. JackofOz 20:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

It's Good to be King -- origin of phrase

What is the origin of the phrase "It's good to be king"? When was it first used? Does it pre-date Mel Brooks? 198.134.2.62 19:55, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure many kings have said that, at least until people started getting wise to them. How about King Tiu? --Shantavira 13:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

June 6

Ablative of opus

Moved by JackofOz from Wikipedia Talk:Reference Desk

In Classical Latin, could anyone please tell me if the word "pro" takes the ablative; I am thinking, in particular, of Newman's Apologia pro vita sua. If so, what would the ablative be for the word opus!

Thank you in advance!

Yes, pro takes the ablative. The ablative of opus is opere. Angr (talk) 12:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Now that we are talking about ablative : is there a difference in pronuncation between vita sua in ablative?Evilbu 14:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It depends which conventions of Latin pronunciation you're following. In Classical Latin, the nominative is [ˈwiːta ˈsua] and the ablative is [ˈwiːtaː suaː] with a long ā at the end of each word. In both Italianizing and Germanizing pronunciation, though, no pronunciation distinction is made, and both are [ˈvita ˈsua]. Angr (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I am mostly interested in classical Latin. My books often explicitly wrote ${\bar {a}}$ , but actually WRITING that difference is "not done" right?Evilbu 18:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

That's the first time I've ever seen someone use the math markup to indicate a long a! It's right there in the "insert" box below the edit box. Anyway, marking long vowels is customary in pedagogical works (textbooks, dictionaries, etc.), but the Romans themselves very rarely marked long vowels. Occasionally in some inscriptions you'll see an acute accent or a doubled vowel, but both of those are pretty rare. Angr (talk) 18:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

using brand names instead of proper names

Hi, I know a word exists to describe using a brand name instead of a proper name (for example Hoover instead of vacuum cleaner, sellotape instead of stickytape, tippex instead of corrrection fluid etc). But I can not recall what the word is. Any ideas? thanks

Genericized trademark? -lethe ^{talk +} 13:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Using a proper name (e.g. a brand name) instead of a common noun is usually called antonomasia. Aurelien Langlois 16:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

English dictionaries usually flag these as proprietary terms. --Shantavira 18:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

gross domestic readership skills.

what does gross domestic readership skills mean and its significance to developing countries?

Higher literacy rates in a population improve the chances that a piece of homework given out will be completed by the receiver rather than being passed out to strangers to do it for them. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 15:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

other words for "healer"

I'm looking for ancient words for the word healer, preferably from English/Northern European roots. Could you also include pronunciation? Many thanks..

Uhh...well, Old English had lǽce for "doctor", pronounced like "LAH-kuh" or something... - Greatgavini 16:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was pronounced [ˈlæːtʃə] (sort of like "LATCH-uh" but with a nice long vowel in the first syllable). Angr (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

And the words for "doctor" in the Scandinavian languages stem from the same root:

• Swedish: Läkare
• Norwegian (nynorsk): Lækjar
• Norwegian (bokmål) Lege
• Danish: Læge

--vibo56 ^talk 17:25, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hence leech. Isn't language great? EdC 18:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

German question

The phrase "in the underground/subway": is it "in den U-Bahn" or "in der U-Bahn"? It seems to me that U-Bahn would be in the dative case (and therefore "in den"), but a sentence in this wikipedia.de article disagrees. I google-d wikipedia.de and both forms seem to be prevalent. --Doug (talk) 19:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)