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Actually, per WP:SELFSOURCE, if there is a published DVD (or self-published, broadcasted, or otherwise publicly distributed source) on which she herself says what her real name is, that seems adequate for its inclusion on Wikipedia – even if the source would not ordinarily be considered an adequate-quality source for other purposes – "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as the following criteria are met ..." In this case, those criteria seem to be met. I suggest that the DVD or film in question could be cited as the source in this case. —BarrelProof (talk) 17:56, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
However, I suppose the fact that WP:SELFSOURCE might indicated that we could include her name, it does not mean that we should. I just read below of her recent traumatic assault, and it makes me think it might be best to leave her name out of the article, at least for the moment. We don't seem to know whether she would want her name being distributed at this time, and we should be cautious (e.g., per WP:AVOIDVICTIM: "Wikipedia editors must not act, intentionally or otherwise, in a way that amounts to participating in or prolonging the victimization."). —BarrelProof (talk) 18:08, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Requested move 24 March 2015
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Oppose by longstanding article stability and consensus across category, and WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. In the case of Hillary Scotts both have imdb entries, though the singer has evidently only acted in music videos, but more importantly all the same reliable sources don't describe "the pornstar Jane Doe" as "the actress Jane Doe", our dabs and categories are supposed to be recognizable and consistent with common WP:RS usage. The WP:COMMONNAME argument in the nomination in fact indicates the opposite: the nominator should provide evidence that "the actress FOO" is used more often than "the pornstar FOO" and "the pornographic actress FOO" in Google Books. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:37, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, porn is its own artform and, from a brief foray, I'm sure she performs to great effect. I'd suggest Cytherea (adult entertainer). She has not been involved in any form of performance outside of pornography but she seems to have done well there. I didn't see anything that I would define as acting but, if so, she seems very into method. GregKaye10:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Rape incident January 19
Hello everyone, I'm not very experienced in editing Wikipedia articles so I was just wondering if it's appropiate to include some kind of reference to the horrible events which happened to her in January 2015? To me it feels like a glaring omission not to mention this horrible story. Here are the sources: link, link and link. This is a YouTube video of herself talking publically about the event.
No. Mainstream news media did not name her because of internal rules on rape victims and those other sources you listed that did are not considered reliable sources under wikipedia guidelines. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cytherea (pornographic actress) → Cytherea (actress) – Unnecessary disambiguation, and the latter already redirects to the former. I now realize there has been a RM on this article before, but per other recent RMs, such as those for Aja, Chloe and Savannah, there's no need for additional disambiguation on articles for pornographic film actresses, unless there's another article for an actress with the same name. This article should be moved to conform to the articles in Category:American female pornographic film actors, where almost all of the articles that require disambiguation simply use "(actress)". --Relisted.George Ho (talk) 05:31, 6 May 2015 (UTC) Fortdj33 (talk) 16:08, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - per general reliable sources which say "porn actress Cytherea", "the pornstar Cytherea" or "adult film actress Cytherea" or "pornographic actress Cytherea" and not "the actress Cytherea", in the same ways as general sources talk about any other person in the category. The three RMs noted above are the exceptions, the majority of recent spate of RMs have closed with the longstanding consensus in this category that we describe as per category and per reliable sources. It isn't Wikipedia's job to reengineer English language usage and convert all porn film actors to actors. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:49, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Rebecca1990 is this RM notified anywhere? WP:NAMINGCRITERIA #5, Consistency, which states "The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles." is the exact opposite - longstanding consensus overwhelmingly favors using (pornographic actress) over (actress) and the same for (pornographic actor), have you looked in the (pornographic actor) category?
In ictu oculi, I personally have no preference for one over the other. I just think we should be consistent with article titles. Consensus overwhelmingly favors (actress) and (actor) over (pornographic actress) and (pornographic actor). You should know this since you actually participated in all five of those discussions. Now, please cease your WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT behavior. It's disruptive. Rebecca1990 (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Rebecca1990 are you aware of the RMs which went the other way? Among the dozens of articles you have moved how many have RM results which you have overturned. Please put back the dozens of articles you have moved and use the RM process. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, are you referring to RMs like the one for Cytherea above? You do realize that one has only two oppose votes while the other five have a total of over a dozen different "support" participants, right? A dozen support voters trumps two oppose voters. Rebecca1990 (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well this is last warning - yes there's been recent drumming up of support on WT Pornography for these moves and that has tipped the balance for the 3 latest RMs, but when you undiscussed moved Talk:Jill Kelly (pornographic actress) etc. you can see you're doing it counter a RM result, correct? You can see the previous RM, yes? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:44, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
What about the other articles moved counter RMs? And what's the point in having RMs at all if users can "trump" them when a minority of RMs go their way? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:04, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I ask again; what about the other articles moved counter RMs? And what's the point in having RMs at all if users can "trump" them when a minority of RMs go their way? In ictu oculi (talk) 22:33, 27 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, the only RMs I've found that resulted in oppose are:
If you look through all these RMs you'll see "oppose" votes from a wide range of WP:RM regulars and general editors, they just aren't turning up for every single (pornographic actress) RM. I think most readers will recognize moving an entire category and then present citing WP:NAMINGCRITERIA #5, Consistency, as an invalid argument. If you intend to make a case for a move then please print source search evidence that the subject of this bio is known as "the actress Cytherea" not "the adult actress Cytherea". In ictu oculi (talk) 04:12, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Rebecca1990 I would advise you to re read WP:CONSENSUS. When there is a good admin it is not about the vote but on an assessment of arguments. I'm really not sure how the WP:CRITERIA best apply to parenthetic disambiguation but please note that Precision is second on the list while Consistency is fifth. GregKaye12:55, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I watched bits of a few videos and Cytherea certainly seems to have an engaging personality a featured in jerk off videos that actually involve speaking. in a search on her web site:
A page search at https://twitter.com/realcytherea and sub pages shows no wording containing "act" or "film". the personal description reads: Cytherea @RealCytherea This is the official Cytherea twitter. I'm known as the Goddess of Gush and Squirtwoman. Spoil me:
http://www.avn.com/porn-stars/Cytherea-281829.html gives no related ref to "act" or "film" and introduce: "As far as adult industry sensations go, precious are the few who've created as earth-shattering a stir upon arrival as Cytherea, the Natalie Portman-esque enchantress whose signature talent—her propensity for expelling fluid when she climaxes like Old Faithful—simply floors all who witness it..."
from the beginning of latest video http://www.youporn.com/watch/10526761/squirt-legend-cytherea-fucks-a-happy-fan/ Fuck a fan 20, (which, when I tried to save the link gave me "The text you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This is probably caused by a link to a blacklisted external site" which was a first) the apparent host, the clothed, loud and arguably less attractive one gives a first description as "fluffers".
While she may be a "Natalie Portman-esque enchantress" and, while she may be very good at what she does, she is not, at least in her outputs and her various presentations, Natalie Portman
Oppose. The use of "pornographic actor/actress" is a longstanding naming convention which enjoyed consensus support in practice. The unilateral, undiscussed, sub rosa move of scores of articles after proposals to change the consensus practice failed was abusive. If, as Rebecca claims, "We can't just have some pornstar articles at (actress)/(actor) while others are at (pornographic actress)/(pornographic actor)", we must use "pornographic actor/actress", because of the documented duplication of names as well as the porn industry practice of using soundalike names like Lizz Tayler, which must be clearly distinguished. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 12:13, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, WP:Consensus can change, and it has. Users now support the use of "(actress)" and "(actor)" instead of "(pornographic actress)" and "(pornographic actor)". Secondly, I don't think this is a problem when it comes to pornstars using names belonging to mainstream actors. It is actually uncommon for pornstars to use the same name as a mainstream actor and spell it the exact same way. And the few that do share the same name with a mainstream actor will remain at "(pornographic actress)" and "(pornographic actor)". Consensus only supports using "(actress)" and "(actor)" when the title is available, which it is in Cytherea's case. No one is arguing that we should delete Wendy Williams (actress), a mainstream actress, and move Wendy Williams (pornographic actress) to that title. But there is no need to specify what type of actress a pornstar is in her article's title when there is no mainstream actress to differentiate her from. Rebecca1990 (talk) 13:13, 28 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I think that it would be fair to say that conclusions reached by consensus discussions may change, for instance, on condition that new arguments are presented. To be clear WP:CONSENSUS refers to rock solid policy and does not change. The policy states: "Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Wikipedia, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." The whole point of consensus is to help us develop encyclopedic content. GregKaye02:25, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cavarrone, The people we are currently discussing are widely described as "pornstars". Where is the shame? What shame? Why? Please justify your interpretation of shame. We don't go by WP:OR. In The Scarlet Letter "Hester Prynne,.. is required to wear a scarlet "A" ("A" standing for adulter) on her dress to shame her." How does this apply? No one is being labelled an adulterer. We are using the same terminology used by the industry itself which is also used when talking about the industry in reliable sources.
Yes there was extensive discussion at the locations you mention but an article title is meant to describe its subject. In comparison to my post above there has been very little actual content on the ways in which the artists concerned have both described themselves and been respectfully described. GregKaye02:41, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it was all already discussed in those RMs, including your arguments and mine. It's not a question of shame, it's a question of double standard, I specifically send you back to Savannah talk page for more context. Cavarrone05:01, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support, and why is this even under discussion anymore? With the recent moves it looks like policy is set on this, and these names can just be moved to "actor" or "actress". This is the third one in a row I've commented up this morning, and I haven't seen a porn film in years (unless you count Les Mis, where prostitutes are portrayed, so should all those actors be renamed now?), and this now seems settled policy. Randy Kryn11:38, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Randy Kryn one of the reasons it is still being discussed is because the noms of these moves have been asked what they propose to do about the 6 bios with pornographic and non-pornographic actors. They haven't acknowledged the question. What do you think should be done? (non-pornographic actor)? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:19, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi In ictu oculi}. I just looked at one, Wendy Williams, and that's an easy one. The main topic is aleady taken, and we have an Wendy Williams, American actress and Wendy Willaims, British actress. Do the other five have such easy fixer-uppers? I've only done a quick look on this page for one, and Williams was the first I found. Or do some have a major impasse where genre titles have to be used? If that's the case, 'Pornographic actress', or more likely 'Adult film actress' (the latter seems more 21st century), by all means. Randy Kryn16:40, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]