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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) at 00:50, 5 April 2017 (Archiving 3 discussion(s) to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 63) (bot). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used

Beauty and the Beast and Stockholm syndrome

I'm wondering how best to address the "Belle has Stockholm syndrome" topic, and whether it should go in the Beauty and the Beast (1991 film) article or the Beauty and the Beast (2017 film) article. I don't think it needs to be in both articles (except for any commentary from critics in the critical response sections). I'm surprised that it's not already in either article (unless it was removed in the past due to poor sourcing and being too fringe...before it became as discussed as it is today), but I see that an unsourced mention of it was in the Stockholm syndrome article. A number of media sources argue that Belle has Stockholm syndrome, but there are also reliable sources, which sometimes include expert commentary, noting that she does not have Stockholm syndrome. The actress (Emma Watson) who portrays Belle in the live-action (2017) film has also addressed the topic. This Google search shows what I mean. I will go ahead and post a note on the talk pages of the two film articles and on the talk page of the Stockholm syndrome article so that concerned editors may weigh in. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:45, 20 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It has probably turned into a debate in relation to this particular version because Emma Watson has set out her stall that this is a feminist take on the fairytale, so its feminist credentials are being more carefully scrutinized. If the criticisms are universal rather than applicable to just a single adaptation maybe add a themes section to the main Beauty and the Beast article? Criticisms and responses pertaining to a particular version could remain at whichever article they pertain to. Betty Logan (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is it specific to Belle (Disney) character article? Or Beauty and the Beast in general? There are also articles that show her as a Manic Pixie Dream Girl as well. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:05, 20 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Betty, yeah, the 2017 film article is likely the best place for the material since Watson has weighed in and is quoted (or otherwise pointed to) in a number of sources on the topic. I've considered adding a paragraph on it to the Controversy section of that article. Given that sources are about the Disney films, I don't think the material should be placed in the general Beauty and the Beast article. A little content could go in the 1991 article and we could point to the 2017 article for further detail.
AngusWOOF, in my opinion, it's not specifically about Belle; it's about the film and the message some people think it's sending, especially to young girls. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:22, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In order to avoid OR and UNDUE, it should only be mentioned in articles the subject of which has been repeatedly mentioned vis-a-vis "stockholm syndrome" in mainstream journalism at the time, I think. It would be OK in Emma Watson's article, along with rebuttals. Other articles would be a harder sell. In other words, the 1991 film wouldn't work in my opinion because that's retroactive. Softlavender (talk) 03:46, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Softlavender, what do you mean by "in mainstream journalism at the time"? It is a discussion being had now, mainly as a result of the 2017 film. The sources are specifically talking about the films in question; so WP:OR is not an issue unless adding the material to the Controversy section of the 2017 article would be considered WP:OR if the sources do not specifically use the word controversy. The material doesn't have to go in that section, though. And I would keep WP:UNDUE in mind, which is why I suggested a paragraph (not more than one paragraph) above. I don't think that the material should be regulated to the Emma Watson article. Also, I'm sure that whether I add material on this topic or not, someone will eventually add it to the 2017 article. I'd rather go ahead and do it and get it right. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:50, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't yet looked to see if any film critics refer to any aspect of the films as "Stockholm syndrome," but I will later. This section of the Passengers (2016 film) article mentions the syndrome. This type of stuff shows that the world thinks somewhat differently than it used to about romances told in this way. Either way, in the Beauty and the Beast case, I think it's important to note that experts disagree with people using this term without much thought or care, or with simply misusing the term. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It reminds me of the controversies over Revenge of the Nerds and Blade Runner, both of which have scenes that, 30 years later, have been described by critics as rape. Interestingly, our article on Blade Runner makes no note of this, despite the existence of high-quality academic sources. If I recall correctly, it was reverted in the past by angry fans. Controversial criticism like this can be difficult to keep in an article about a popular film. Something to consider is to look into Tie Me Up! Tie Me Down!, which was interpreted by some critics as commentary on the perceived Stockholm syndrome of films like Beauty and the Beast. It may lead to further sources. I never really thought about it before, but we probably have enough sources to write about this topic somewhere, either as a section in Stockholm syndrome or an independent article. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 19:44, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if Blade Runner is up to snuff as a Featured Article anymore. It became a FA a very long time ago, and I think newer FAs do a better job comprehensively referencing multiple academic sources. In the case of the recent Beauty and the Beast, I see numerous headlines about this matter in Google News, so I think it is proper for Wikipedia to summarize that discussion and to update it as it evolves. Similar content can be covered elsewhere in a more general Beauty and the Beast article, under the article for Stockholm syndrome if there is any film-related or popular culture-related section there, etc. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:53, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to see this discussion. I'm a fairly new editor. Before finding this discussion, I added a section under controversies in the 2017 movie page about "The Beast Imprisoning Belle," the Honest Trailers parody to the 1991 film, and a mention about the arranged marriage context on the fairy tale page. We'll see how long it lasts.Beauxlieux (talk) 13:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NinjaRobotPirate, thanks for that information. And, yeah, I was thinking that there might be opposition to adding material on this; that's why I started this discussion. Erik, thanks for your input as well. As noted above, Beauxlieux has added some material to the 2017 article. I tweaked it, as seen here, here and here. Beauxlieux, thanks for the addition. I think that the only thing currently missing from the section is an explanation about why some critics and experts state that it's not Stockholm syndrome, and why there are arguments that Belle was no longer being held captive after initially being prisoner. I'll get around to adding material on that if you or someone else does not beat me to it first. As for the section you added to the 1991 article, I think that giving that parody its own section is WP:Undue weight. It would better to move that little bit of material up to the initial section, without a subheading and point to the 2017 article for material on the Stockholm syndrome matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 15:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Good points Flyer22 Reborn Thank you. The explanation of why critics say it's not Stockholm's was in the article I cited so I just added it to the 2017 article. A lot of people are talking about whether it's Stockholm or not, but I think using the explanation by the man who coined the term is a definitive source on the topic. Not sure I know/understand: arguments that Belle was no longer being held captive after initially being prisoner.
As for the 1991 article, as I said, I'm a new editor. I thought this issue should be added somewhere. So I agree that might not be the best place/way. I think people are definitely going back to look at the original Disney now that the new film came out. The Elite Daily article I footnoted in the 2017 article talks about the cartoon film and compares the two in regard to the imprisonment issue. Beauxlieux (talk) 16:46, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Beauxlieux, thanks for this, but there are other reasons why people state that it's not Stockholm syndrome. I'm looking to add a brief summary of those reasons. As for "there are arguments that Belle was no longer being held captive after initially being prisoner," I mean that people have argued that she is not a prisoner because she is free to go. Initially, she is a prisoner, but this changes. And it's another reason that people argue that Belle was not suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen it noted that Belle is not confined to any one place in the castle; she is free to wander the castle, except for one room (the one the Rose is in), and she is free to leave the castle and does leave it twice. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:56, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer22 Reborn o.k. Ochberg goes into more explanation in the article I cited, too. I think it's pretty clear that it's not Stockholm's syndrome so I don't know that we need to beat a dead horse. It depends on how in depth you want to make the section. I would then want to include more on how it is nevertheless still problematic in order to maintain balance.Beauxlieux (talk) 17:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I also just separated the first sentence into two in order to clarify that not all who have issue with the film think that it is Stockholm'sBeauxlieux (talk) 17:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was only talking about a brief summary of why it's not Stockholm syndrome -- as in more than one reason. And it should obviously be noted that Belle is not a prisoner throughout, which counters the material that she is a prisoner and that's that. So there is no need for any more material on why some people believe that the relationship is harmful. I'm also concerned about the following line: "The Beast does not apologize to Belle for imprisoning, hurting, or manipulating her, and his treatment of Belle is not painted as wrong." I am concerned because this is one viewpoint and there's currently nothing there to counter it; many do not consider that the Beast manipulated Belle or was without remorse. These two missing aspects I mentioned only need a sentence each. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:34, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer22 Reborn I was confused why you gave a definition of Stockholm if there's an internal link to it. Not sure what the protocol is on that.
I understand your concern about the line but I do think it is balanced with the not Stockholm's argument. It is a summary of the article cited and is meant to support the "some therapists" sentence. I think the issue here is how we define what the controversy is. I did not label it "Stockholm's Syndrome" because I think it's a bigger issue than that. Some people, like Watson, are saying it's not Stockholm's syndrome, so it's o.k. Get over it. And others are saying: it's not Stockholm's syndrome but that doesn't mean it's o.k. Beauxlieux (talk) 19:55, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I gave a definition of it in the section (in parentheses) so that readers know what it is without clicking on the link. The link is for further detail. The definition, readers knowing what Stockholm syndrome is, is important for the context of that section. Readers should know what it is in that section. Briefly explaining what a term means in a section, for context, is common on Wikipedia.
As for the rest, I still feel that there should be one sentence noting why people argue that it's not Stockholm syndrome; and I mean more than just this bit you added. And I still feel that there should be one sentence that presents the argument that Belle was eventually free to leave at any time. I will be adding these two sentences if no one else does. When it comes to the line I am concerned about, I would change it to something like, "While some state that the Beast does not apologize to Belle for imprisoning, hurting, or manipulating her, and his treatment of Belle is not painted as wrong, others argue that, after a while, Belle is free to leave at any time and the Beast is remorseful for initially holding her as his prisoner." I'd rather avoid "some people" wording when possible, though, per WP:Weasel wording. And, really, I would cut the "his treatment of Belle is not painted as wrong" bit. That is an opinion and it contrasts what we see in the film. The film, via other characters and Belle's feelings and attitude, quite clearly shows that some of the Beast's behavior toward Belle is wrong.
On a side note: It is not necessary to ping me to this section; this talk page is on my watchlist. I stopped pinging you above because I knew that you would check back here for a reply. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
With this edit, I used WP:In-text attribution for the sentence I was concerned about. The in-text attribution takes care of the neutrality issue I had with that sentence. I still plan to add two sentences regarding what I stated above, but I'll do that another day. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why the fact that she isn't a prisoner for the whole movie has anything to do with whether she was suffering from Stockholm when she was imprisoned.
If you want to add another sentence about why it isn't Stockholm, I'm not going to argue but I think it's unnecessary. I just clarified that therapists think "the relationship depicted is dysfunctional and abusive" so as to name the issue that they have with it and not just say what it isn't. (I also added the Vanity Fair article which is the original source for Watson's comments.)
I think the in-text attribution was a good solution. My only hesitation would be that I don't know if Menta is the main thinker on that train of thought but she did say it so I think that's good.
On a side note, I do appreciate the pings, even tho this page is on my watchlist. I find the watchlist confusing.Beauxlieux (talk) 05:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Beauxlieux, the fact that she isn't a prisoner for the whole film has to do with the fact that she could eventually leave at any time that she wanted to. It is a part of the "Belle was a prisoner" argument. And, in fact, one believing that they are a prisoner has much to do with Stockholm syndrome. As for the rest, I have nothing else to state. And I'd rather not be pinged when you reply since this page is on my watchlist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thx for the ping Flyer. I'm still a bit dense on this point apparently. What is your cite going to be? Seeing that might help me understand. Beauxlieux (talk) 22:33, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't yet know what sources I am going to use. I've read various articles on the topic (the Belle matter), and watched some YouTube videos on it, and am repeating what I've seen debated/otherwise mentioned. When I first started this discussion, I wasn't even sure which sources I would use. And, as we know, you beat me to creating the section. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:30, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Help identifying people in image with Howard Hawks

Hi, I recently uploaded some images from our Howard Hawks collection. One of them has Howard Hawks sitting in folding chairs with some other people. Do you recognize any of the people in the photo? The back of the image said it was taken in 1929 in connection with Hearts in Exile (1929 film), but that may not be accurate. Our curator was guessing it could have been during the filming of The Dawn Patrol. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Rachel Helps (BYU): - also try asking at WP:RDE too. Lugnuts Precious bodily fluids 19:01, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, good idea. done. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:10, 22 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on film article

Members of this project may be interested in the RfC found at Talk:Bikini Moon#RFC: Should first sentence include 1994 Academy nominee status of Director?. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:47, 23 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More new decade categories

Per earlier conversations about unnecessary breakdown by decades, we now have another newly created category: Category:1980s chase films. Only one film was on it, now none. Just noticed a few others: Category:1960s chase films, Category:1970s chase films, Category:1990s chase films, Category:2000s chase films, all recently created by Jim Michael. Perhaps someone will nominate them for deletion. - Gothicfilm (talk) 22:31, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yep - it is another WP:SMALLCAT situation. I found several that failed WP:CATDEF as there was no sourced info to support the cats. MarnetteD|Talk 23:11, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We already went through those arguments when Chase films and American chase films survived being nominated for deletion. Jim Michael (talk) 05:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
First this is not the same thing and second, even if it was, WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. MarnetteD|Talk 14:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Additionally neither of those cats violated WP:SMALLCAT MarnetteD|Talk 14:34, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

My purpose here was to slow the proliferation of these decade splits, but another editor has restored the category at The Terminator even though he says he disagrees with it. Category:1980s chase films now has a grand total of two entries. You can comment at Talk:The Terminator#Chase film category. - Gothicfilm (talk) 17:54, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I raised this issue again a couple of weeks ago at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film/Archive_63#More_.22micro.22_diffusion. I agree it's becoming a real problem. Diffusion is only necesary to make categories more manageable. If the categories are already manageable then diffusion is unnecessary and actually starts to cause problems, because people don't want to have to search through ten extra categories when one will suffice. Jim Michael is undermining the categorization of the film articles. The trouble though is that it takes longer to delet them than it does to create them, so we need to come up with a sensible guideline for the MOS. A single catgeory can easily handle hundreds of articles, it's when you get to thousands you start running into problems so maybe we should create a basic rule of thumb for the MOS instructing editors not to diffuse categories with fewer than 1,000 members. Betty Logan (talk) 18:16, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. If you're interested in a category, you don't want to go through multiple cats when one suffices just fine. Jim Michael is not making things easier for readers. - Gothicfilm (talk) 18:43, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Time these micro-categories were terminated. Lugnuts Precious bodily fluids 07:34, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I saw these cats cropping up recently and reverted a couple because they seemed inaccurate. A film may have a chase in it without being a "chase film". That cat should be definitive of the film as a whole. But, the larger problem, as Gothicfilm makes clear, is that the decade subcats are simply too small to be necessary or helpful. I agree with the comments above: delete them. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 19:14, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Aishwarya Rai

On this article, there's edit dispute over the sentence "She is often cited as the "most beautiful woman in the world" like there's unanimous support for such title, despite there isn't. Discussion can be found at here, kindly participate. D4iNa4 (talk) 17:11, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dawgtown

Hey all, Dawgtown may be of interest to some of you. The article was created in July 2014 as an upcoming independent animated film. It was deleted in November 2016 after a PROD expired. It was recreated by editor Cartoonist 101, then deleted again in December 2016 after another PROD expiration. It was recently created again by a brand new user. At a casual glance to me, it seems like someone's trying to establish legitimacy for their vapor project by setting up a Wikipedia article--we're basically hosting content about an upcoming film that has been trying to get off the ground for three years. Why? Anyway, I'm hoping the community could take a look and decide whether it should stay or it it should be taken to AfD since the PRODs have not dissuaded re-creation. The current version of the article is very much like the last deleted version (sorry, only admins will be able to see this link) but the production section has been expanded a bit and more references have been added. In my experienced opinion, someone saved the previous version and built the new version on top of that, which raises some questions about editor involvement. I think we're being used for promotion here, but contrary thoughts are invited. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:30, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks to me like WP:NFF applies here. The best source looks like the Jacksonville article, which goes a long way to establishing notability. I'm not sure that we've got anything that covers "In the case of animated films, reliable sources must confirm that the film is clearly out of the pre-production process, meaning that the final animation frames are actively being drawn and/or rendered, and final recordings of voice-overs and music have commenced" yet, but I can't see all of the sources from my office.--Killer Moff (talk) 09:24, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Killer Moff: Your thoughts are appreciated, thank you. Would you or anyone else at the project be willing to go pull the trigger on an AfD? Is it worth it? Other options are moving to draft space. @FW365668: since you are currently the chief contributor of this article, I think you deserve to be aware of my issues with this article. I'm concerned that Wikipedia is being used both as a promotional vehicle, and to host information about what appears to be a neverending vapor project. The existence of the article seems indulgent to me, to say the least. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:25, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Cyphoidbomb: Well, turns out the creator was a Nate Speed sock. Since there have been minimal edits to the page by other editors, would that make it eligible for WP:G5? Sro23 (talk) 00:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sro23: Looks like NeilN thought it was--it has been deleted. Regards, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:28, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sro23: Actually, one question: How do we know it was a sock of Nate Speed? I don't see that info in the block log or any attempt to link FW365668 to Nate Speed in the Nate Speed SPI. What am I missing? Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 00:32, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
They restored content added by IP socks to Warner Bros. and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. Sro23 (talk) 00:34, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New category

Deloop82 recently created the category Psychological science fiction films with the explanatory text: "Films listed as psychological science fiction films by Allmovie." Do we consider Allmovie genres to be definitive, because they have a lot of subgenres that are unique to their site, but which I have not seen used reputable film critics and scholars. My reading of the definition would be "films that combine sci-fi with elements of the psychological thriller," but that definition would apply to a very small number of films. MarnetteD has already removed some films from the cat, with the argument "rmv per WP:CATDEF - there is no sourced info in the article to support the cat," and I agree with him, leaving 6 films in the cat. My guess is that the rest could be deleted as well, as the definition is simply lacking. Should I just depopulate it and list it for deletion, or do we want to discuss this first? Thanks in advance for your thoughts. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 19:21, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FILMLEAD states "Genre classifications should comply with WP:WEIGHT and represent what is specified by a majority of mainstream reliable sources". So if other sources cite these films as being psychological science fiction films, then that would be OK. Plan B would be to de-populate the category of the remaining handful of films and then tag the category as being empty for speedy deletion. Lugnuts Precious bodily fluids 19:41, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
In this specific case a category shouldn't be sourced to only one website. In general there are a handful of films that might fit the cat if (as Lugnuts points out) they fit the criteria. The question then becomes will it ever be anything more than a WP:SMALLCAT. All to often these cats are created and them populated with films that the editor "thinks" (ie WP:OR) belong in them. That is why the instructions at WP:CATDEF are so important. MarnetteD|Talk 20:25, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The use of Template:dagger

Hello everyone, is there a way if we can use something else to denote the unreleased films instead of Template:dagger? I respond to a ticket today and the customer raised a concern that the symbol is not instantly recognisable and confused with a symbol commonly used to indicate death so any suggestion if we can use a different symbol. Thank you – GSS (talk|c|em) 16:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, I've never seen that used in that context. Generally, they're just described as unreleased or if in a table, a parenthetical or a note in a notes column stating "unreleased" or some prose. Do you have a specific example of this usage, to better figure out how to change it? ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:35, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I think I've seen the dagger used in some filmographies. I agree that it would be best to keep to prose instead. Looks like this works for finding "Filmography" sections that use the dagger. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:46, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dagger (typography) says: "A dagger or obelisk ( † ) is a typographical symbol usually used to indicate a footnote if an asterisk has already been used." Wikipedia uses it in many different types of articles, and {{dagger}} has 11353 transclusions. The search "unreleased films" hastemplate:Dagger only finds two articles: Mohanlal filmography#Films in Malayalam and Kriti Kharbanda#Filmography. The latter currently fails to include it in the explanation so that should be fixed. Apart from that it sounds like an issue for another venue if somebody doesn't want Wikipedia to use daggers for footnotes. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:42, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We should look at cast and crew articles as well as company articles since they may use the dagger too. They won't have "Unreleased films", I think. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 17:47, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But should daggers be replaced? I see no need for film articles to do that when daggers are common elsewhere, it's a valid typographical symbol for the purpose, and there is no Wikipedia guideline against it. Film articles also use them for different purposes, e.g. currently playing films in box office lists like List of highest-grossing animated films. Like the above examples with unreleased films, it's combined with a background color. Some users don't see colors so there is also a symbol per WP:COLOR. I don't think it's worth an extra column with text to explain it. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:46, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Contrary to having a guideline against it, their usage within the English is described at Footnote as thus:

Typographical devices such as the asterisk (*) or dagger (†) may also be used to point to footnotes; the traditional order of these symbols in English is *, †, ‡, §, ‖, ¶.[1] Historically, ☞ was also at the end of this list.[2] In documents like timetables, many different symbols, as well as letters and numbers, may be used to refer the reader to particular notes. In John Bach McMaster's multi-volume History of the People of the United States the sequence runs *, †, ‡, # (instead of §), ‖, Δ (instead of ¶), ◊, ↓, ↕, ↑

.
If they are not going to be replaced by an asterisk then they shouldn't be replaced at all. This is the English-language Wikipedia after all. Betty Logan (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@TenTonParasol and PrimeHunter: For example, Cate Blanchett on screen and stage#Film and a list of 459 article show a small box above the list of films which reads † Denotes films that have not yet been released. I think the customer was confused/disagree with the use of dagger/cross because it's been used mostly in biography articles. I agree it's a valid typographical symbol for the purpose, and there is no Wikipedia guideline against it but can't we replace the dagger with something else especially in the BLP articles? GSS (talk|c|em) 09:10, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, cool. I just wanted to make sure what the issue looked like. I think in the Cate Blanchett example, that should just be removed entirely, because it's denoted in the notes column that the films are in post-production. (I was also curious if "unreleased" meant "never released" or "upcoming".) I think to the whole thing about whether they should be replaced, there's a valid argument, I believe, to the dagger being mistaken for "death" (i.e., posthumous release) in biographical articles. Additionally, is the dagger necessary? If there is a notes column in these articles, which in my experience there is 90% of the time, then such a note could just be easily noted there instead. I say just remove them entirely and use the notes column.
Sidebar, I do notice that a lot of these are Indian related articles, and iirc, there's been an issue over at WP:TV about Indian television articles typically ignoring general conventions of style, both in codified MOS and de facto. I'm not sure that's entirely related to this issue, and I don't bring it up as a mark against keeping the daggers, but it's just a general note that if the daggers go, they may come back. (See a current discussion regarding Indian TV articles.) ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 14:16, 1 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of List of accolades received by Avatar (2009 film) at FLRC

I have nominated List of accolades received by Avatar (2009 film) for featured list removal here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare to "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Cowlibob (talk) 11:19, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone have opinions on when we should and shouldn't note something as fictional within a piece of fiction?

I just spotted this conversation and it seems like the kind of thing that could get tempers flared, though it's fine right now. In short, the film is set in a fictional village that is located in a real world county and two editors disagree on whether noting the village as fictional is helpful. I dropped in my two cents but 1) I'm not super invested either way, just idly interested and hoping to head off any drama and 2) I've been wikilite/absent for several years so I may have missed some chats that could inform this. I was hoping some of you who have been more active recently might have something to say at the target discussion. I can only think of a few examples of when we have done this and though I know they exist, can't think of any for where we decided not to. Millahnna (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for raising that. I haven't been around long enough to provide anecdotal examples of when this has and hasn't been done. However, there has been a recent discussion relating to writing 'in or out of universe' here that is somewhat relevant I think. It certainly seems a fallacy to state that we should not state something is fictional because that would mean that we would have to all the time with all aspects/characters or that nothing is ever served by explicitly mentioning that something is fictional. There is certainly no requirement to state that characters etc are fictional within the context of a plot summary, this would only need to be done if it serves to add clarity or impart some specific information about the work of fiction in question. So the question then would be, is it appropriate in this particular article? The questions to consider IMO would be;
  • Is the setting otherwise realistic and could readers assume that this is a real place? (Yes and yes in this case. If it was a film set on the planet Zanix 6 in the city of Gadigody then we can safely assume that the reader probably won't think that Gadigody was a real place due to its context).
  • Is it relevant to the fiction that it's a invented place? (A little in this case. Sandford could be seen as a stereotype of Middle England and its mindset, so making clear that its a fictional place helps emphasise that for the reader).
  • Is the possibility of confusion and the importance to the narrative high enough to warrant a stylistic shift within a plot summary which otherwise doesn't indicate that its a work of fiction to highlight it? (Debatable, I would probably include it, because to me, making readers aware of the fact that Sandford is fictional 'model' village complete with a model village within it within a film which derives much of its comedy of taking the tropes of American action movies and transplanting them into Middle England adds to their understanding of the film, but I can understand why others might disagree).
I thought I'd reply here to see if others think I'm way off base. Scribolt (talk) 11:48, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I personally think we are opening a can of worms by going down this route. If we start specifying that certain places are fictional where does it end, and where does that leave us? Do we have to start referring to the fictional planets of Tatooine and Krypton, and if we don't could we inadvertently mislead the reader into thinking they are real because some other articles specify when a place is fictional? Should we refer to Jack and Rose as "fictional" people in the Titanic article? And what of films that take scientific theory and play fast and loose with it? I notice the Hot Fuzz article does actually specify that Sandford is a fictional place in the "filming" section and this seems to me the proper way to approach this kind of thing. We should leave our real world knowledge out of the plot summary, but if it's relevant it can be discussed in other sections of the article. Betty Logan (talk) 12:16, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify (I tried to make to make this clear in my response), the decision to refer to something explicitly as fictional or to refer to the film-making should always be made on an article by article basis. I completely disagree with you on the 'We should leave our real world knowledge out of the plot summary' comment if by that you mean we should always leave it out. Does that mean that we can never refer to a flashback? Or the fact that timelines are presented in a non-chronological way? Or that a character breaks the fourth wall and addresses the audience? What I do agree with is that in all the examples you listed above there is zero benefit to doing it, so it shouldn't be done. Referring to the real world should only be done exceptionally, and only when it adds something. The question therefore should be, does it add something in this specific case? I don't feel very strongly about this particular example, you could argue it either way. Please consider commenting at the MOS:PLOT talk page I linked to above, where these issues have recently been discussed. Scribolt (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A flashback or a non-chronological presentation is not an appropriate analogy. They are narrative devices used within the work and you are not reading real-world knowledge into the film. I don't need any specific real-world knowledge to follow the prequel story in The Godfather 2 and adequately recap the plot. However, I do require an atlas to ascertain that Sandford is not a real place. If it's real-world status is relevant I just think there are more appropriate places within the article to cover such details. Betty Logan (talk) 13:53, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's a mistake to include any external real-world information in plot summaries, since this introduces ambiguity about what a plot summary actually is, and what sort of information it should contain. Keeping them to a strict in-universe perspective lets us get the plot-summarising business out of the way so the rest of the article can focus on the real world. It's a kind of shorthand - the reason, for example, that we don't need to begin every summary with "In the opening sequence..." (The only exception, as far as I'm aware, is our current use of "In a post-credits scene...", which I think is OK to mention since those scenes are separated from the narrative in a meaningful real-world way.) Specifying which elements are fictional could also confuse things when dealing with metafictional works - as long as we don't do that, we can describe the interplay between "real" and "fictional" elements without confusion.
If the fact that Sandford is fictional is genuinely important, we should be able to find a source discussing why, and fit it somewhere in the "Production", "Reception", or "Themes" section (with maybe a brief mention in the lead). —Flax5 13:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Plot summaries are supposed to avoid in-universe approaches and should include out-of-universe references as necessary to describe the work as a viewer would see it rather than a character within the work. In terms of describing elements as fictional or not, it depends. By virtue of being under a "Plot" section, we should implicitly assume that elements are fictional. If there's no unique dropping of real-world names or places, then there's no need to predicate that the characters and places are fiction (eg there's no need to id Gotham City as fiction in the Batman films). But when there's a mix, that's where some care needs to be taken. Titanic is a good example where there is a combination of fictional and historical characters, but it would weigh down the plot summary to identify these, so instead the cast list that immediately follows has been developed to distinguish between the two to help make clear to the reader which is which. In the case of Hot Fuzz, while the village is later identified as fictional deep within the production section, it's not as clear as the Titanic film cast, and because it mixes in London among other real places, the village should be clearly identified as fictional within the plot summary since it can cause confusion when its named next to real places. --MASEM (t) 13:25, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Flax5 said. It's not important to the plot summary whether the setting of Hot Fuzz is real or not. This is not what plot summaries are for. Popcornduff (talk) 14:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, on WP, plot summaries are allowed because they are meant to help support the rest of the article on the film or other work; they are not meant to be treated as stand-alone recaps just because we do allow a plot summary in articles on notable works. It's why these are to be written out-of-universe style to avoid treating the narrative as "real". --MASEM (t) 15:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Worldwide distribution as redirect for discussion

The redirect page "Worldwide distribution", currently retargeted to "Film", is tagged as RfD. I invite you to the discussion. --George Ho (talk) 19:09, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Conjuring (franchise) move request

Just to let people here know, there is a name change being debated at Talk:The Conjuring (franchise)#Requested move 4 April 2017 for the The Conjuring (franchise). I encourage everyone to participate. —Joeyconnick (talk) 20:16, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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