Talk:Gab (social network)

New Language for Lede giving fair treatment to the "Free Speech" aspect of the site

The lede is painfully inaccurate; the site isn't known for far-right users, it's known for its content policies. I propose the following new language for the lede. Citations can be found in my edit that was reverted before the editors even took the time to read its content.

"Gab is an English-language social media website, known for permissive content moderation policies that have turned it into "one of the poles in a sharp debate over the boundaries of free speech"[6] online.

The site allows its users to read and write multimedia messages of up to 3,000 characters, called "gabs,"[7] and permits any content which is allowed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution,[6] attracting a politically conservative user base.[11]

Gab's moderation rules have been criticized as "extremist friendly"[12] or creating a "safe haven"[13] for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right.[12] The site gained extensive public scrutiny following the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting in October 2018, as Robert Gregory Bowers, the perpetrator of the massacre, posted a message indicating an immediate intent to harm before the shooting; Bowers had a history of making extreme anti-Semitic postings on Gab.[14][12] After a backlash from hosting providers, Gab briefly went offline.[15][16] Ginjuice4445 (talk) 21:30, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I absolutely object to your changes. I expect many others will as well. Gab is primarily known for being a haven for racists and other extremists. That is the primary thing; that will absolutely be in the lede; this will not be whitewashed.--Jorm (talk) 21:32, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

It is known among some, mainly critics of the free speech policy, for being a "haven for racists." It is known among others for being a conservative website. It is known among others for its moderation policies. The current lede reflects one viewpoint only. The modifications I have proposed explain (a) what the policy is that permits racists to speak on the site, (b) how those who support the free speech policy describe themselves, and (c) how critics describe those who support the policy. It's not "whitewashing" to present a balanced viewpoint about what the company does. The persistent editing conflicts on this page are evidence that there is considerable disagreement out there in the world with the editors camping on this page and preventing any new citations or substantive additions from being made. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 21:36, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Shouting FREEZE PEACH LOUD is actually beside the things Gab is doing, which is making antisemitic comments and other eyewinks to pander the neo-Nazi hatred. This is documented in-page. I hope this will be your last attempt at warring to whitewash the page to your POV narrative, else you might be walking toward a topic ban. Tsumikiria (T/C) 21:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

It is not whitewashing to explain what the site is about with well-sourced secondary sources, as I did, providing direct quotations from the third party source which explain that the site is known for adopting a controversial free speech policy. Screaming ALT-RIGHT LOUD without explaining why those users are permitted on the site, when virtually every source that discusses right-wing users also discusses the site's First Amendment policy, is also POV, albeit of a different type - you have your POV and are refusing to even consider a good faith attempt to balance your well-sourced viewpoint with other, also well-sourced viewpoints that re not inconsistent with your views, but rather clarify them. I am not proposing to add any information which isn't backed up with solid impartial source material. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 22:12, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I attempted to add newspaper citations in the "self-definition" section showing how the site defines itself. Tsumikiria then reverted the edit by saying "we don't honor self promotion here, and this is a borderline POV edit." The section is literally titled "self-definition;" if an edit cannot be added which explains how the company defines its own business, why does it exist? If we compare to pages like Facebook and Twitter, those all give airtime to these companies' own moderation policies without labelling the description of those policies as "self promotion." Given that any controversy about Gab relates to its First Amendment policy, it is hardly inappropriate to set out the policy in detail and support descriptions of the policy with citations. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 21:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

This is discussed at length before. Most sources don't treat the subject's FREEZE PEACH rhetoric seriously, and so we must follow. You just happend to find the PG source I added have a particular sentence that favors your viewpoint and used it to flip the article to your narrative. Stop. Tsumikiria (T/C) 22:19, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

This is untrue. Most sources reference the free speech policy expressly and deal with it head-on, including the NPR piece being used as the third citation in the article to support the contention that the site is "far-right," but which also says "Gab makes the case for people to be able to post whatever they want, as long as it's legal. That means the site's user guidelines prohibit very few types of posts: illegal pornography, threats of violence or terrorism, confidential information of users without their consent."

Or the Mic piece (citation already in the lede): "In our phone and email conversations about Gab's push for a mainstream audience, Torba and Sanduja kept falling back on a familiar argument: Free speech above all else, and little, if any, censorship."

Or the Verge piece which is also cited in the lede: " Anglin reversed course and described his detail-free takedown request as 'brilliant,' since the resulting controversy proved that free speech is Gab’s vital selling point. But that hasn’t placated everyone, including users who say Torba should have immediately laid out the situation — and those who say Gab can’t deliver on its core promise if a company can order it to take down posts." (Emphasis mine.)

I remind you of my proposal for a new lede: "'Gab is an English-language social media website, known for permissive content moderation policies that have turned it into "one of the poles in a sharp debate over the boundaries of free speech' online." This isn't new information, it's what the current sources currently say. The sources deal with free speech issue. The article should deal with it too. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

I find it incredibly alarming that the user reverting this edit uses the derogatory term Freeze Peach in reference to Gab's mission statement. Essentially what you are arguing is that because the outlets covering gab are of the opinion, based on their own personal politics, that Free Speech is a poor defense for Gab's style of moderation that Wikipedia by extension must uncritically cram this opinion into the Lede. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.84.127.108 (talk) 23:22, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

It's quite obvious at this point that Tsumikiria has biases that conflict with the neutrality of this article. Banning said user for the sake of maintaining neutrality should be up for discussion. Flash512 (talk) 21:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

That hasn't been my experience; I think their edits to the page have been reasonable and they have supported their positions on this page with links to policy and past discussion. A topic ban discussion such as the one you are proposing would need to happen somewhere like WP:AN or WP:AE, not this page, but you would need to present a strong case for it. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:43, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Flash512, by all means, and WP:ANI or WP:AE would be the appropriate venue. It might still not allow some (false) balance to be finally introduced, but why would I stop you? Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 00:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

It's funny when an account with 170 total edits that hasn't edited in 4.5 years pops up out of nowhere with this accusation. Softlavender (talk) 00:45, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Nothing suspicious here, nothing at all.--Jorm (talk) 01:14, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't live on here like most of you, so nothing funny about it. I have no desire to dedicate myself to contributing to something over the years I've found to become corrupt, but I will call out outright bias when I see it. Also Jorm feel free to delete this too. Flash512 (talk) 01:41, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, well you know where to go if you want to begin a discussion about a ban for Tsumikiria. If you want to discuss something specific you think is biased in the article, feel free to do so on this page (and provide reliable, independent sources supporting a different viewpoint). I'd recommend starting a new section if you do, since you're currently commenting in a section that previously hadn't been active for more than a week, which is a bit confusing for others to follow. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:14, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

"known for its mainly far-right user base"

Known by whom? Ditch the passive-voice weasel-words, and have the courage to say what it is, not what it's "known" for. "...that has a far-right user base." PaulCHebert (talk)

Agree. Furthermore the sources used to back up this assertion do not state that the site is known for a far-right user base, simply that it has some far right users, and virtually all of them explain further that the reason the far right users are there is due to the site's First Amendment/free speech policies. The article should account for the free speech policy more directly in the lede. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 22:22, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Agree and clarifying, the sources not only do not say it is "known for a far-right userbase," but rather that the userbase leans conservative. See from the NPR citation: "I have encountered several people on Gab when I first started, I will be very frank, there is a very conservative thread that runs through that platform. And I think they're starting to get it that they're not there to control the conversation.... Combs and Donker both say Gab's decision to "open the floodgates" is already helping to add diversity of views to what they both assume was the original crowd of hard-line conservative Republicans. But are there any liberals? Donker laughs. "There are a few," he says, later adding: "I've never heard anybody say they support Hillary. But then again, Gab is a big place."

"Already helping to add diversity of views to what they both assume was the original crowd of hard-line conservative Republicans." The piece doesn't actually support the contention that it has a far-right user base, but rather that it started with a "conservative Republican" userbase, and that its userbase is currently gradually diversifying as the platform grows and user numbers increase. See also the Mic source which says the site is "trying to reach young, diverse progressives." Ginjuice4445 (talk) 22:36, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

The lede should not discuss what it is "trying" to do. Is should succinctly define the platform and its base. PaulCHebert (talk) 22:49, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

If you're right, head over to Twitter and FaceBook and define the platform and its base in the lede.
Try again. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 00:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Disagree and clarifying Gab is known as an alt-right social network. However, this is due to an unfair caricature by the mainstream media. We have two options: 1) Properly define the Gab site in an unbiased way, without mentioning various newspapers' opinions about the site. This is the most reasonable option, but as it is also the most polarizing I will not recommend it as a way to move forward. 2) Add language that explains why the MSM call it alt-right. I added language doing so, the third sentence now reads "The site has been described as "extremist friendly" or a "safe haven" for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right due to its refusal to censor most hate speech."
Also, the writing of the lede is woeful. The first three sentences don't have a coherent flow, one calls out its alt-right user base, the next describes its functionality, and the next calls it alt-right again. If you're going to call Gab names, at least do it right. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 00:22, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Disagree with steering clear of an unbiased description for the sake of biased editors, but agree with the changes you have made, which move the needle towards objectivity. I have added language clarifying the site's rules apply to all political speech, including hate speech. I agree the writing of the lede is dreadful and think most of the content should be moved into a separate "criticism" section of the article. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 00:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are meant to reflect the significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources. Since much of the media describes Gab as far/alt-right, that should be reflected in the article proportionally. I understand that you may not agree with this characterization, but that does not mean the article is biased. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:38, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Please see my comments above. The sources all reflect that Gab is a free speech site and, as a result of that policy, alt-right users congregate on it. The dominant editors to date have conveniently ignored the free speech part of that equation. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 00:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

That is perhaps partly my fault; I removed a portion of a sentence that mentioned free speech simply because of the duplication of "due to". If I instead tried to reword it, would that satisfy your concern? GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The sentence currently reads The site has been described as "extremist friendly"[11] or a "safe haven"[12] for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right due to the site's policy of refusing to censor political speech,[13] including hate speech. My preference would be "Due to the site's policy of refusing to censor political speech, including hate speech, the site has been criticized as... etc." but I fear implementing the changes myself will result in an automatic revert from one of the other editors who hold more negative opinions about the subject matter of this article. I'd support that change if you made it. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Aaaaand it's gone. Tsumikiria blanked your edits, GorillaWarfare, AKA Casey Rollins' edits, and mine with this edit. This is the problem - he and Jorm have camped on the page for months and prevented anyone from making any substantive changes. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 00:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't actually disagree with their change--the NYT and Mic sources are much stronger than the CNet one, and those two don't directly link causation in that way. As for "my" edit, this is a collaborative website and I have no issues with changes I make being tweaked for good reason--the edit I made was only a grammatical fix anyhow. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the change's broader significance is that puts this article back in the position of not giving balanced treatment to Gab's free speech emphasis. Currently, the only mentions of "free speech" in the article now are quotations that criticize the "free speech" focus as a disingenuous "shield behind which alt-right users hide." This does not reflect what the sources say about the matter; the Mic source and the NPR sources in particular both refer to the site's free speech focus as being genuinely held political convictions, not "mere shields" (as does the Verge source - which I've outlined in considerable detail here) (see language: "free speech is Gab’s vital selling point"). Ginjuice4445 (talk) 01:40, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something, those sources don't make a causative link between the free speech policy and the types of folks who frequent the site. They're also largely referring to how Gab (and the people who run it) describes itself. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

They describe a relationship between the policy and the users, otherwise why would they mention it? In any case, the sources do mention the policy. This article is deficient in that it completely fails to describe the free speech policy in an objective way. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: The entire wiki article is about the website's mainly far-right userbase, and that's what 90% of the website's independent coverage has been about. So "known for its mainly far-right user base" (A) is an unbiased statement of a clear fact, and (B) summarizes the Wikipedia article, which the lead and first sentence must do. I see no reason to change the lede sentence. Softlavender (talk) 01:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

That's a problem. The wiki article shouldn't be about the website's mainly far right userbase; if that's the article you want to write, then you should write a separate article about Gab's userbase, much like Reddit has a separate article from the The_Donald subreddit (link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki//r/The_Donald ). This article should be about the website, and if you're writing about the website you should put its main commercial differentiator - the pro-speech moderation policy which allows conservative users to speak uncensored on the platform - into the discussion. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The wiki article should be about what reliable sources say is important about the subject. The sources say this thing is notable for its users? Our article will say this thing is notable for its users. Drmies (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The sources also say it's notable for its free speech policy. The issue is that the free speech policy is given no mentions at all - not one - except for two mentions criticizing the policy which cite one obscure academic report. Despite the fact that the free speech policy is mentioned in nearly every article written about the company. That's not a neutral point of view, it's not reality, and it's not fair to the company or Wikipedia's readers. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:01, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Do they? "Free speech" isn't such an easy term to define, though, and I am sure we can spend a few million bytes arguing the various definitions of "free speech" on this here talk page, but as long as the company claims it's a vehicle for free speech, whatever that may be, those claims are a bit POV-y and shouldn't simply be inserted in the article lest the promotional value of that claim become a disservice to our readers, which is the prime concern for both of us. BTW it seems that this article is just about the only thing you've ever worked on on Wikipedia, so I wonder how far your knowledge of NPOV and our readership goes. Sorry, but I can't help but wonder if, you know, you aren't just here to "set the record straight". Drmies (talk) 02:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

If you'd read the sources, Gab's policy is clear - the multiple sources I have attempted to add, which Tsumikiria keeps deleting when I add them, make it clear that Gab follows the First Amendment in its own moderation rules. So there's no definitional problem, and no POV issue. It is what it is. As for my concern, It's the only thing I've ever cared about on Wikipedia; thank you for this warm welcome to your community of editors. I look forward to caring about other things in the future, but rest assured my motivations are pure. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:22, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)What you are attempting to do is to give a WP:FALSEBALANCE to a idiosyncratic viewpoint nearly nowhere present in reliable sources, and if you believe that the subject is treated unfairly, please go yell at the sources, not at us - as an encyclopedia we are not obliged to respect promotional claims. Gab is a user-generated content website so a large protion of the article must be about its users - concurrent with the weight present in reliable sourcs, which readily establish them as mainly far right. We will not submit to your incessant sealioning texts, regardless of the number, and we're not obliged to respond to every one of them, either. Please make good use of the archives. Tsumikiria (T/C) 02:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Jorm, Softlavender, GorillaWarfare, Tsumikiria and Drmies. Reliable sources emphasize Gab's far right users, and therefore this article must do so as well. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 02:09, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how you can think that. Reposting what I put above, most sources reference the free speech policy expressly and deal with it head-on, including the NPR piece being used as the third citation in the article to support the contention that the site is "far-right," but which also says "Gab makes the case for people to be able to post whatever they want, as long as it's legal. That means the site's user guidelines prohibit very few types of posts: illegal pornography, threats of violence or terrorism, confidential information of users without their consent."

Or the Mic piece (citation already in the lede): "In our phone and email conversations about Gab's push for a mainstream audience, Torba and Sanduja kept falling back on a familiar argument: Free speech above all else, and little, if any, censorship."

Or the Verge piece which is also cited in the lede: " Anglin reversed course and described his detail-free takedown request as 'brilliant,' since the resulting controversy proved that free speech is Gab’s vital selling point. But that hasn’t placated everyone, including users who say Torba should have immediately laid out the situation — and those who say Gab can’t deliver on its core promise if a company can order it to take down posts." (Emphasis mine.)

Even the New York Times piece refers to the free speech policy as "Gab’s core mission of promoting free speech."

As I said above, this isn't new information, it's what the current sources currently say. Gab's mission is free speech. The sources do not entitle us to cast aspersions on that mission or assume it is some disingenuous cover for more sinister motives; they tell us what they tell us. It's right there in the text of every source in the lede. It's abundantly clear that the sources deal with free speech issue. The article should deal with it too. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Either you go change the description of Democratic People's Republic of Korea into "...is a democratic, people's, republic', or you stop your POV-pushing and sea-lioning efforts. The consensus is not on your side, and it doesn't have to be unanimous. Tsumikiria (T/C) 02:25, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Consensus may not be on my side tonight, but note I'm not blanking the page, either - I'm here playing by Wikipedia's rules. I'm pointing out that, despite the fact that every source in the article refers to free speech issues, the people editing this article are choosing to ignore those issues in favor of writing an article that is unwarrantedly critical of its subject.

If the editors on this thread want to ignore the glaring absence of an honest treatment of Gab's free speech policy from this article, that's your prerogative, but Wikipedia is a big place and I want it down for the record that I dissent from the current text of this article. I fully expect that neutral editors from elsewhere on this website will read what I have written and agree with that dissent. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Cool story, bro.--Jorm (talk) 02:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

It's cool cuz it's true. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 03:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. I look forward to telling it again, and again, and again. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I have to let you know that every last person doing this sort of POV pushing at Wikipedia is eventually either topic banned or site banned by the community. One may be superficially compliant to our policies - but may still be inexcusably disruptive and incompatible with the purpose of this project, which is why they were sanctioned. Concede while you can. Tsumikiria (T/C) 02:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I find it revealing that you're trying to intimidate me with the prospect of a ban rather than dealing with the substance of my critique, which is that every article you've cited in the lede in support of the proposition that Gab is "right wing" also makes direct and explicit reference to Gab's free speech policies - but this article does not. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 03:06, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Well I mean, it's not like there's a viable excuse for his actions, if there was one he/she would've provided it by now. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 03:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Of course. And people will see that for what it is when they mosey across to this page and see the course of the discussion. Thank you for chiming in. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 03:19, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

This discussion really puts this entire site in a bad light. Editors like User:Jorm responding to clear POV biases with unseemly comments like "Cool story, bro" like he's trolling on Twitter rather than even trying to defend his biases. It confirms criticisms that the site is really just promoting ideological propaganda rather than an objective description of topics of interest. Squ1rr3l - Talk to me! 00:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Says another editor with only 20 mainspace edits, who hasn't edited in two years, and whose edits are mainly slams of SLPC. Softlavender (talk) 01:08, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Cool story, bro.--Jorm (talk) 01:10, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

• Comment We had an RfC on this last month, and consensus was clear. The problem with "free speech" is it's the company slogan/company POV, and its definition is vague enough to be meaningless. In favour of the status quo here. SportingFlyer T·C 03:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The review was faulty. I've done a review from scratch of existing sources used in the article, detailed extensively above, and it's clear the editors have ignored a lot of content that shows Gab's free speech policy is both notable and uniformly applied, even though it also permits right-wing users to congregate on the site. In terms of POV, the company applies a precise free speech standard - the First Amendment - which is a known set of legal rules, not amorphous marketing fluff. See these recent pieces I have attempted to include in the article as citations from Mic about Gab booting a white supremacist from the site, Cnet about Coinbase deplatforming and the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. If my contributions were not always immediately deleted by Tsumikiria or Jorm the relevance of the citations would be obvious. The Mic piece is particularly illustrative as Gab cited a federal court decision for the moderation call. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 03:57, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

That was a mild reminder of what you might be walking yourself into, and I've already replied to your points:[1][2] Wikipedia is not a repository of soapboxing claims. All these mentions by the media only describes a first party claim, rather than establishing as a plain fact as you have construed. If you believe that this RfC is faulty, feel free to open any numbers of new ones and escalate in any way you deem fit. And you can cherrypick sources, so can I:

"To many people, Torba’s First Amendment absolutism is just a talking point. The site exists less to defend the ideals of Benjamin Franklin than those of Christopher Cantwell. It chose as its logo a creature that looks rather like Pepe, the alt-right attack frog. It courted people on the far right, and it became a haven for them. Free speech can be less a principle than a smokescreen."

Tsumikiria (T/C) 04:13, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The problem with your sources is they fail WP:SYNTH. The CNet and Pittsburgh articles only talk about their content policy, which is less restrictive than other social media platforms. The "free speech" isn't discussed as a concept, but rather in quotes by the company, or in passing. We have to be very careful on these types of articles. Also, I disagree a unanimous RfC would be faulty but a month later. SportingFlyer T·C 04:18, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not cherry picking sources. The "free speech is just a talking point" argument is already reflected in the article. I am not proposing that it be removed. What I am saying is that there are a lot of sources that say the site's free speech policy is more than disingenuous cant or a mere marketing point. The sources that support my assertion include every single source referenced in the lede to support the proposition that Gab is "right wing." In the paragraph immediately above I include three additional sources that show that the free speech standard Gab applies is not marketing fluff but is in fact definite.

I can find more, and will, if the editors of this page will concede that there is eventually a point where they have to acknowledge the legitimacy of the free speech point which I have found in sources of my own and most of the ones that are currently in the article, rather than digging in their heels when presented with evidence that doesn't conform to their narrative. Failing to include the "free speech" viewpoint when it stares you in the face in your own references does a serious disservice to Wikipedia readers. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 04:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ginjuice4445: None of the sources you immediately proposed use the phrase "free speech" three times: the CNet article uses it in a quote from the company, the Pittsburgh Gazette briefly notes it in a free speech context and then quotes a post on Gab which discusses free speech. This is not enough - you have not yet presented a source I've seen which supports your viewpoint (which personally perplexes me - isn't "free speech" something which restricts the laws the U.S. government can make? I mean, if someone signs up in Australia, which doesn't have explicit "free speech," how would that affect the network? If your point is the social network does not censor its posts, that can be said without using the pointed "free speech" phrase.) SportingFlyer T·C 06:55, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ginjuice4445 and Sportingflyer: Which RfC are you referring to? This one? GorillaWarfare (talk) 04:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes. That review is totally cursory and didn't involve a review of the sources I've gone through above. I note Tym Whitter's comment: "also include some mention that is also known for it's opposition to censorship, aka free speech. I do not believe the encyclopedia can say the one without including the other." That is the entire point I've been trying to make this evening, which users like Tsumikiria and Jorm ave portrayed as a totally unreasonable and out-of-consensus request, despite the fact that my further analysis here has shown that "free speech" and "right wing" appear in every single source in the opening sentences of the lede. Considering this opinion is also held by AKA Casey Rollins it appears that there is not as unified consensus on this point as Tsum and Jorm would like to portray. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 06:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I'm asking because that RfC seems to be discussing a completely different topic from what you're hoping to achieve, unless you're also hoping to remove "known for its far-right user base" from the lead? Speaking more generally, I think Tsumikiria's advice at ANEW is wise: "you can open another RfC, escalate using dispute resolution, or just take it to WP:ANI, and finally, WP:ARBCOM, if you truly believe that people opposing you are at fault. No one is stopping you at this point." You're beginning to repeat the same arguments here and so far have not achieved consensus through talk page discussion, so it might be time to try something else. GorillaWarfare (talk) 06:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

References

Cut down size of lede; create new section titled "criticism"

As a general comment, the lede is too large and should be cut down. Much of the content in the lede is duplicative with content already contained elsewhere in the article, and would be more at home in a new article section titled "criticism." Ginjuice4445 (talk) 00:06, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The lead is actually fairly short compared to a lot of articles this size. As for the duplication, this is how it should be—leads are meant to provide a summary of the key points of the article. GorillaWarfare (talk) 00:36, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough - you're the expert here so will withdraw my objection. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 01:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Generally speaking, criticism sections are considered a poor way to structure articles. See WP:CSECTION for explanations as to why. --Aquillion (talk) 02:03, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

RfC about whether Gab's free speech policy should be included in the lede

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the lede of this article describe Gab's free speech policy? Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:03, 21 January 2019 (UTC) EDIT: In response to comments, I propose the lede read as follows, with new wording in bold (and am open to suggestions to modify it): "Gab is an English-language social media website, known for its First Amendment content moderation policy and the right wing user base whose content that policy protects . The site allows its users to read and write multimedia messages of up to 3,000 characters, called "gabs". The site's moderation rules have been criticized as "extremist friendly" or as creating a "safe haven" for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right.

Per GorillaWarfare's comments I am editing again to bring to the top of the thread the citations that support these changes. All that is needed is a clean read of sources already cited in the current lede. See e.g. NPR, which says "Gab makes the case for people to be able to post whatever they want, as long as it's legal;" Mic, which writes "in our phone and email conversations about Gab's push for a mainstream audience, Torba and Sanduja kept falling back on a familiar argument: Free speech above all else, and little, if any, censorship"; Verge, which says the "free speech is Gab’s vital selling point" of the site; and the New York Times which refers to the free speech policy as furthering "Gab’s core mission of promoting free speech." As for what "free speech" means, this means "the first amendment." This is implied by the NPR piece and set out directly in a piece from Mic dated mid-November. See also the site's own statements here and here stating that it uses the First Amendment as a moderation rule.

Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:03, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Note, for clarification, the consensus failure on this page appears, at least to the requestor of this RfC (yours truly), to revolve around whether Gab's free speech policy is worthy of inclusion in this article. This RfC asks "Should the lede of this article describe Gab's free speech policy?" Not discuss, not laud, not condemn or criticize, but describe. The policy itself isn't currently described in the article at all; what is described are criticisms of the policy. Attempted revisions of this article to include neutral references to the free speech policy to this page are, most of the time, summarily reverted. If third parties agree that aspect of Gab's business is notable, it should not be hard to draft neutral language to describe it and this should ensure that future well-referenced mentions of the policy are not immediately reverted. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• No. There is insufficient sourcing to indicate that this is the most notable thing for the subject. This RFC is also opened in bad faith as an attempt to circumvent an unfavorable result from a previous RFC. --Jorm (talk) 07:09, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The previous RFC dealt with a completely different question, as GorillaWarfare pointed out above - it asked whether the term "right-wing" should appear in the lede. This RFC asks whether "free speech" should be added to the lede, and does not propose removal of the language "right wing." Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:26, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

FYI: Responding to everyone's !vote in this RFC will gain you negative goodwill towards your position. Just sayin'.--Jorm (talk) 07:42, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Just trying to make an honest, good-faith contribution to this article. If that requires defending myself to point out that this RfC deals with a different issue than the prior RfC, so be it.Ginjuice4445 (talk) 14:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• No to this apparent bad-faith RfC; the second paragraph of the current lede already starts with "Gab's self-promotion as a vehicle for 'free speech' ..." which is an adequate summation of the reality per independent sources. That's accurate and enough for the lede, and summarizes the body copy of the article text. Softlavender (talk) 07:17, 21 January 2019 (UTC); edited 08:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The "Gab's self-promotion as..." does not describe the policy, it criticizes it and editorializes by assuming that the site's free speech motivations are disingenuous cant. This proposal seeks the addition of objective language that actually describes the policy. Furthermore, the previous RFC dealt with a completely different question - whether the term "right-wing" should appear in the lede. This RFC asks whether "free speech" should be added to the lede, and does not propose removal of the language "right wing." Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:22, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Yes. Gab's free speech policy is the stated purpose of the site. It describes itself as "the home of free speech online" on its landing page. The company's free speech policy features prominently in every source cited by the current lede, where it is described in some detail and provides context to much of the source articles by explaining why right-wing users are on Gab and not on other sites - chiefly, because Gab is the only website on the Internet that won't ban them, due to the free speech policy. I encourage you to review the articles that are already cited in the current lede - NPR, which says "Gab makes the case for people to be able to post whatever they want, as long as it's legal;" Mic, which writes "in our phone and email conversations about Gab's push for a mainstream audience, Torba and Sanduja kept falling back on a familiar argument: Free speech above all else, and little, if any, censorship"; Verge, which says the "free speech is Gab’s vital selling point" of the site; and the New York Times which refers to the free speech policy as furthering "Gab’s core mission of promoting free speech." Talking about Gab without discussing its free speech policy borders on nonsensical and is one-sided. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:22, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The lede must summarize the body text of the article; that is its function. If it's not in the body text of the article, it should definitely not be in the lede. Softlavender (talk) 07:43, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

That's a really good point! IMO any section mentioning the alt-right, hate speech content should mention the free speech policies, since that's what paves the way for it in the first place. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 07:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

At the moment, the "consensus" among editors to this page is that the free speech policy is not worthy of discussion at all, and any attempt to discuss it is reverted. Indeed a longstanding paragraph describing the free speech policy was removed today by an editor as "not meriting a standalone section." If third party editors find the free speech issue notable, it will not be much trouble to ensure consequential edits can be made to the body of the piece to ensure the free speech policy is described more fully. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. Consensus among experienced and knowledgeable and unbiased Wikipedia editors is that the free speech policy is not worthy of elaborating. Any organization which asserts that its main competitors are Breitbart News and InfoWars is not notable or known for "free speech" but rather for propagating alt-right viewpoints. Compare, for instance, Reddit and 4chan, etc., which are also known for their free-speech policies, but which do not assert that their main competitors are Breitbart News and InfoWars. Softlavender (talk) 08:13, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I put "consensus" in quotation marks because there isn't actually a consensus. There's a majority, but there's a lot of dissent, too. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 08:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Actually, there is a WP:CONSENSUS, among experienced and knowledgeable and unbiased Wikipedia editors. It's just not a consensus that you or your fellow Gab promoters/fans like. Softlavender (talk) 08:25, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Yes. The only reason the alt-right has a place on Gab is because of their free speech policies. If we are going to say it's a haven for the alt-right, it's only fair to explain why. That'd like a kid complaining to his mom that his stomach hurts and refusing to disclose that he ate all his Halloween candy in one sitting...it's not the full story. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 08:07, 21 January 2019‎ (UTC)

Not true; see the reliable-source citations in the wiki article. Plus Gab asserts that its main competitors are Breitbart News and InfoWars; it is a site for propagating alt-right viewpoints. Compare, for instance, Reddit and 4chan, etc., which are also known for their free-speech policies, but which do not assert that their main competitors are Breitbart News and InfoWars. Softlavender (talk) 08:28, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Gab's alt right user base is enabled by their free speech policies, end of story. Have any sources that prove otherwise? Additionally, you saying that site is "a site for propagating alt-right viewpoints" is a grossly misleading half-truth. Gab is for propagating all viewpoints. Have they censored leftists? Your comment here seems to reek of POV pushing, or anti-Gab motives. It's one thing to say it's known for being a haven for the alt-right, that's totally fair. It's another thing to call it an alt-right propaganda machine. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 13:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Additionally, you mentioning Gab being a competitor of Infowars and Breitbart is completely irrelevant and does not change what Gab is. Netflix recently said it's biggest competitor is Fortnite; that doesn't make it a video game. Nor does Infowars being a Gab competitor (or vice versa) make Gab an alt-right site. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 14:01, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I was not aware that either of Breitbart or Infowars are "alt-right" nor that Reddit has a free speech policy (spoiler: famously, it doesn't). Nor was I aware that a site could compete with some other company with right-wing political views and not have a free speech content moderation policy that differentiates that company from its competitors - but of course, Gab does have such a differentiating policy, and the sources - the sources in the lede no less - bear this out. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 08:41, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

You may have some new pages to "care about" (as you've said above to Drmies). Breitbart News includes "Breitbart News aligned with the alt-right under the management of former executive chairman Steve Bannon, who declared the website "the platform for the alt-right" in 2016" in the lead, and both pages are included in Category:Alt-right and feature the {{Alt-right}} footer (which they're listed in). GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The term "alt-right" is commonly thought to be thrown around as a slur for anything marginally more conservative than a bucket of warm water. Breitbart expressly disavows that label now. I would expect an effort to explain this to the editors who placed Breitbart in that footer to be met with similar levels of obstruction as the editors of this page who insist that a free speech website isn't in fact a free speech website, but thanks for the pointer - I'll hop over there and propose some changes. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Already done Included how? The lede already discusses free speech. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Per my suggestion, Ginjuice4445 has reworded the RfC to actually make clear the purpose of it. PeterTheFourth (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

This RFC asks whether the lede should describe the free speech policy. The current lede says "Gab's self-promotion as a vehicle for 'free speech' has been criticised by scholars as a shield behind which the alt-right hides." That describes a criticism of the policy. It does not describe the policy. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 07:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Ginjuice4445: Your RfC does not make that clear at all. I'd recommend you withdraw this, take the time to form an actually legible RfC, then start that. PeterTheFourth (talk) 07:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

See my reply to GorillaWarfare below. By "describe" I literally mean "describe." So far the consensus failure is that half of the editors don't think the policy is worthy of inclusion at all. If we can get people to agree it's worthwhile to describe it, we can work to agree the language as a separate issue. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 08:12, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Dude, ATM it's not really that bad. What's there is semantically little different than, for instance, "Gab promotes itself as a vehicle for "free speech", which has been a cause of criticism by scholars as "merely a shield behind which its alt-right users hide"". Their free speech stance is mentioned. Consider that a win, I think we're pretty close to perfection here. Props to whoever made that edit. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 08:02, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Correction: that was there for a while. I've been fighting about the lead while only reading the first paragraph, lol! I think the section mentioning their free speech stance should be moved to the first paragraph, for clarity's sake. That should be good enough. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 08:07, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Flawed RfC. Can you please take a minute and write out specifically what you'd like to be added to the lead? At the current moment this RfC is just asking if free speech should be mentioned in the lead, which it already is.GorillaWarfare (talk) 08:03, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Striking this now that Ginjuice4445 has done so; my !vote is now below. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I disagree. The consensus failure on this page revolves around whether Gab's free speech policy is worthy of inclusion in this article. The RfC says "Should the lede of this article describe Gab's free speech policy?" Not discuss, not laud, not condemn, but describe. The policy itself isn't currently described in the article at all; criticisms of the policy are described. If people agree that aspect of Gab's business is notable, we can hash out the language in the talk page or worst case go to another RfC if we can't get consensus on it. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 08:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

See, this explanation is the kind of thing that needs to be included in the RfC proposal so people know clearly what they're supporting or opposing. Even if this RfC were to be closed in support, there would have to be an entire other discussion to work out wording, etc., which is excessive. And if it's closed in opposition, it's currently not clear if the existing mention of free speech should be removed. GorillaWarfare (talk) 14:35, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I've added a note. All the users in the discussion so far are usual suspects whose opinions are known, and consensus is split 3-2, so will wait to see what new contributors have to add to the discussion.Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:05, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

You do realize that as the person who proposed the RFC it's not up to you to close it or to adjudicate consensus. Furthermore I'm sure I need not remind you that consensus != votes. A 3-2 split in overall opinion is irrelevant compared to how the arguments keep with current Wikipedia policy. Furthermore, as many comments here attest, this RFC is poorly formed as you still have not proposed revised text to replace the extant copy in para 2 of the lede which does the thing you're asking the article to do. Simonm223 (talk) 15:11, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

As I explained above, repeatedly, the text in para 2 of the lede does not describe the policy, it criticizes the policy. This RfC asks whether it is appropriate to describe the policy the article currently criticizes. Knowing what is being criticized makes the critique meaningful, so I'm not sure why this proposal should be objectionable. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:15, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I see. Then as per my !vote below, that is entirely WP:UNDUE. The "policy" isn't per reliable sources what's notable so much as the way in which this "policy" has been used to create a safe-haven for fascists. Simonm223 (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

This is not what the sources say. As I point out above, in detail, every source cited for the opening paragraph of the lede refers to the free speech policy, and does not claim that the policy is a disingenuous shield for "fascists." The current sources, if you care to read them, amply justify reference to the free speech policy - no new sources are required. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

That is patently false. The statement that you seem to have taken issue with is a direct quote from a reliable academic secondary source. It's just about as good as a technology lede statement gets. Simonm223 (talk) 15:45, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't take issue with the inclusion of that statement. I take issue with the exclusion of the statements from NPR, Mic, Verge and the NYT that Gab's bona fide mission is the promotion of free speech, and their descriptions of how the implementation of that policy has resulted in users who are banned from other sites congregating on Gab. I envision the lede eventually reading something like "Gab is known for its free speech policy, which means the site will not censor opinions that are protected by the First Amendment, and the right-wing userbase that this policy protects. This policy has been criticized as a shield behind which alt-right users hide." Or similar.Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps you could copy your proposed wording to the RfC proposal? Myself and others have requested you propose specific wording so it's clear what people are !voting on, and they should not have to dig through to a comment thread to find it. GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Done. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! It would also be helpful if you could specify precisely which sources you'd include to support that statement, so myself and others opining here can evaluate if that is a fair summary of what they say. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:31, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Done! Ginjuice4445 (talk) 17:44, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for being so accommodating, this should make the RfC much more productive. GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:50, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

I find your proposed lede both too wordy and also it seems to downplay the fact that Gab is known for its alt-right content. I propose the following lede, which addresses both the content and the lede's present poor form:
Gab is an English-language social media website that allows its users to read and write multimedia messages of up to 3,000 characters, called "gabs". Known mostly for its mostly far-right user base, the site has been described as "extremist friendly" or a "safe haven" for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right. It has stated that conservative, libertarian, nationalist and populist internet users were its target markets. Andrew Torba, Gab's CEO, claims Gab's core mission is "promoting free speech." AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 19:22, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• No - Transparently a bad faith nomination from a highly disruptive, single-purpose civil POV pusher here to right great wrongs, in response to the article subject's latest recruitment effort. The canvassing posts targeted Jorm and me personally in a long term effort to draw POV editors onto this page and cast doubt on Wikipedia and fellow editors. The timing of this RfC is also interesting since a higher traffic to this page produced by the posts means better chance at meat-puppetery canvassing. One warrior has been blocked so far.

In terms of the content dispute, the proposer failed to provide any quotation from reliable sources that readily establish the "free speech aspect", and resorted to misleadingly construing mere passing mentions/one-liner summary descriptions on the subject's first-party claims as concrete facts to pass the Verifiability test. Our policy and guidelines on weight and original research does not allow every minority view to be displayed as equal validity as significant and/or mainstream views, as that would be false balance. So if reliable sources overwhelmingly establish doubt or treat as fig leaves to the subject's "free speech" rhetoric, giving little to no seriousness to the now-meaningless adjective, and notes its long-standing efforts to signal and align themselves with the far-right via antisemitic commentary and alt-right rhetorics, then policy require us to follow, period.

This isn't to say that more descriptions accurately reflecting the language and weight in RSs cannot be added. The subject recently advertised hard to purport themselves as - I quote: "Gab protects dissidents of all kinds - from Alex Jones to Jewish journalist Laura Loomer, from Islamic preacher @imamofpeace to Antifa activists - from censorship, so they will never be silenced." If reliable sources provides cover to this blatant rebranding effort, then we will added it.

On the other hand, this editor is rather reminiscent in their arguments and tactics, to the previous POV pusher on this page User:Ridiceo now site-banned by the comunnity, with plain denials, exhausting sealioning, and demands to others to work for them. This will certainly not be the last civil POV pusher we see here, but we're becoming adept at this. Given that the article subject will not just quit their disruptive canvassing efforts, a long-term, or indefinite semi, or even ECP protection, is long due. Tsumikiria (T/C) 08:43, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

"The proposer failed to provide any quotation from reliable sources that readily establish the 'free speech aspect;'" - please note the most important citation in the lede, from the New York Times, refers to the company's moderation policy as furthering "Gab’s core mission of promoting free speech." "Core mission" is unambiguous language and the sentiment is reflected in practically every other article written about this company. I'm not sure how much more direct you want me to get, and how more readily one could establish the importance of free speech to this article, which is supposed to be about the company, than that. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 13:46, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

That's a passing description of its mission statements. We don't do mission statements anymore here, and it's quite delusional to think that this pure advertisement is readily supported to deserves a special place. Tsumikiria (T/C) 23:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• No More than it already is As has been mentioned above, the second para of the lede already addresses Gab's free speech claims, situating it how reliable secondary sources see it. This is perfectly sufficient and it would be WP:UNDUE to go into greater detail in the lede. Simonm223 (talk) 14:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• • And that's in the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph. I don't see why it would need elaboration. The only change I think might be needed is to remove the question marks. Doug Weller talk 15:15, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
    • This RFC asks whether the lede should describe the free speech policy. The current lede says "Gab's self-promotion as a vehicle for 'free speech' has been criticised by scholars as a shield behind which the alt-right hides." That describes a criticism of the policy, but not the policy itself. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 15:21, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
      • You've made this claim about four times... since I logged on today... and pretty clearly people don't buy it. Suggest sitting back, seeing how the RFC turns out and leaving this one alone now. You've said your piece at length. No need to WP:BLUDGEON. Simonm223 (talk) 15:24, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Procedurally, this is not a valid RFC because it fails to propose specific changes to the article. Substantively, I oppose this notion because discussion of Gab in reliable sources overwhelmingly focuses on their user base and the extremist hate speech they engage in. Authoritarian movements always use free speech as a convenient tactic until they come to power, and then they suppress free speech ruthlessly. Gab is home to white supremacists, an ideology that led to the lynching of 5,000 Americans to suppress the free speech rights of African-Americans and other minorities. Gab is home to neo-Nazis and we know what happened to free speech under Nazi rule. Gab is home to ultra-nationalists and fascists, and whether it is Franco in Spain or the junta in Argentina or Duterte in the Philippines today, such movements suppress free speech when they come to power. Wikipedia should not parrot the disingenuous talking points of authoritarian extremists whose long term goal is to crush free speech when they come to power. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 16:14, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Thanks again, Ginjuice4445 for providing specific wording and sources as requested. However I do oppose your changes for a number of reasons which I'll break down below (I seem to be in a numbered list mood...):

1. Gab is ... known for its First Amendment content moderation policy

   1a. The closest any of the sources come to supporting the site being known for its content moderation policy is the Verge article saying Gab is "known as an anything-goes haven for the far-right", and even that is more focused on the far-right. It doesn't mention the First Amendment at all. The other articles you've provided discuss Gab's content moderation policies, but do not say that Gab is known for them. Even a brief skim of the titles of the articles you've linked shows that it is Gab's far-right userbase, not its content moderation, that it is known for.

   1b. The "First Amendment" stuff is also quite weak. The only mentions of the First Amendment are from the site itself (the Mic article comes the closest to independently describing it as such, but it is still in the context of the site's comments on the First Amendment). It is also a bit weird to reference the First Amendment in the context of a privately-owned website, which I suspect is why the reliable sources haven't really referred to it as such. As I'm sure you know, the First Amendment refers to the government's ability to abridge freedom of speech, and has no bearing on what private websites may or may not do.

2. Gab is ... known for ... the right wing user base—this is yet another attempt to soften the "far-right" wording that was already agreed upon in the recent RfC.
3. The site's moderation rules have been criticized as "extremist friendly"—nope. It is not the moderation rules that have been described as such, it is the site: "On Gab, an Extremist-Friendly Site...", " Instead, the man accused of killing 11 people went to Gab, a two-year-old social network that bills itself as a “free speech” alternative to those platforms, and that has become a haven for white nationalists, neo-Nazis and other extremists." ([3])
4. The site's moderation rules have been criticized as ... creating a "safe haven" for neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and the alt-right.—again, no, it is the site that is known for this and not its policies. "Instead, the man accused of killing 11 people went to Gab, a two-year-old social network that bills itself as a “free speech” alternative to those platforms, and that has become a haven for white nationalists, neo-Nazis and other extremists." ([4]), "Gab, a haven for white nationalists, is now trying to reach young, diverse progressives", "In a short amount of time, Gab.ai, a 7-month-old social network, has developed a notorious reputation as a magnet for the alt-right and a safe haven for banned Twitter trolls, Gamergaters, Pizzagaters and high-profile white nationalists to congregate and "shitpost" to their hearts' content." GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:04, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Comment I would support any reliably-sourced passages which cover how the website markets itself. But please avoid mentioning the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. It prevents Congress from depriving people from the freedom of speech and freedom of the press. It does not prevent restrictions by private organizations. See Freedom of speech in the United States: "The First Amendment's constitutional right of free speech, which is applicable to state and local governments under the incorporation doctrine, only prevents government restrictions on speech, not restrictions imposed by private individuals or businesses unless they are acting on behalf of the government." Dimadick (talk) 18:40, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

The site states it applies the First Amendment as a moderation rule. in any case if this is the objection then would "free speech" be a suitable substitute? Ginjuice4445 (talk) 19:37, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose – the First Amendment does not affect private organizations, so the use of the term in the lede would be a blatant example of dog-whistle politics. Instead, we should accurately describe what the company is known for, which the current lede does fairly well. Bradv🍁 19:31, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose change I don't believe 'First Amendment content moderation policy' is a fair and balanced descriptor of the corporations open arms approach to hate speech. PeterTheFourth (talk) 20:16, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. There are many sources supporting the First Amendment wording. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. I don't have an opinion on the rest of the proposal and I don't want to read through this toxic talk page. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) wumbolo ^^^ 21:57, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose As I've noted in a separate section, there's nothing wrong with describing its content moderation policies elsewhere in the article, but it is not what the network is primarily known for. The proposed lede also fails NPOV. SportingFlyer T·C 22:34, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. Incidentally Joe Rogan said earlier today that Gab "is 100% committed to free speech." Link. Link. How's that for, as Tsumikiria requested, a "quotation from reliable sources that readily establish the free speech aspect." Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:19, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Nowhere in there did he say that Gab is known for its freedom of speech, nor did he mention the First Amendment, which is what you've proposed in this RfC. No one is disputing that Gab has very loose rules about what it will remove from its platform; the dispute is (in this RfC) whether they are known for it and (more broadly) whether that is a large enough topic in the independent coverage of Gab to be mentioned prominently in this article. I believe this has now been explained to you several times. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:34, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

All I have to offer at this point is a hearty LOL. Any excuse. Joe Rogan gets 20 million downloads an episode; a single podcast of his will get more hits than most of the writers, combined, of the newspaper articles cited in the lede - which all also mention Gab's free speech policy, by the way - will get on everything they write over the course of their entire lives. Eventually common sense is going to prevail on this page. Today is not that day. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:38, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

I know who Joe Rogan is, you don't have to explain that to me. If you'll re-read my comment you'll see I am not saying that Rogan is a nobody or that he and others haven't mentioned Gab's free speech policy; I was saying that his commentary does not support your proposed changes. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:43, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

At this point I'm confident that if I presented this crew of editors with a Presidential proclamation discussing Gab's free speech policy, you folks would ding it for being a primary source and point me to HuffPo as more authoritative. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

Probably; our president is unfortunately not the most reliable source. GorillaWarfare (talk) 02:49, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

• Note: Fair warning: Ginjuice4445, you have made 80 posts on this talkpage over the past 29 hours. Prior to that, three months ago you made 70 posts to this talkpage over the course of 6.2 days. All of this constitutes bludgeoning, tendentious editing, POV pushing, and being a single-purpose account – all of which adds up to disruptive editing. If you continue along this path, you will very likely be either blocked from editing – possibly indefinitely – or banned from this article and its talkpage. Softlavender (talk) 03:13, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

@Softlavender: This editor is likely trying to score brownie points from Andrew Torba, so that their outright abuse of process here can be painted as some sort of heroic dissent being "censored" by evil Communist editors on Gab's Twitter account. The editor is heading towards a topic ban at the very least per the standard process under this kind of situation - and this is exactly the advertising opportunity Torba wants. He's certainly quite updated on this talk page's development and may have already engaged in conversation in this page. Tsumikiria (T/C) 04:00, 22 January 2019 (UTC)

• No. The sources cited by Ginjuice4445 support referring to free speech in the lead section, as it already does. They do not support referring to Gab's content policies, which I believe is what is being proposed. R2 (bleep) 18:39, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Best way of describing Andrew Torba

I am thinking about possibly creating an article on Gab co-founder Andrew Torba, but I can't think of the best way to describe him in the lead of a possible article about him. What do you guys think would be the best lead description of him with sources backing up the lead? X-Editor (talk) 04:05, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

This talkpage is for discussing the improvement of this article; so this question doesn't really belong here, especially since this page gets too much clutter already. It is a question more for the WP:TEAHOUSE or for a draft submission to WP:AFC. Andrew Torba is the co-founder and CEO of Gab, which is a clear and accurate description unless there are equally important elements to add to a first sentence. Softlavender (talk) 04:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

If I were you I'd start a draft, link to it in this thread and we can discuss it on that talk page. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 21:01, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

This is extremely improbable and AfD will be on the way. He is completely unnotable by Wikipedia standards, known only for his relationship and past comments pertaining to this WP:FRINGE website. Would easily fail "Significant coverage" and "Independent from the Subject" in WP:GNG. Unrecommendable endeavour. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 04:58, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the responses Softlavender and Tsumikiria. I guess he isn't notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, at least not yet. Also, I'll make sure to ask questions like these at the Teahouse instead. X-Editor (talk) 05:08, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Removed Storyful's "19,526" weekly active users estimate from the infobox

I've removed Storyful's estimate of "19,526" weekly active users from the infobox. This is because the num_users template parameter, according to Template:Infobox website/doc, represents "The number of registered users the website has".

Gab self-reported 850,000 registered users in December 2018. Storyful and the Southern Poverty Law Center reported that the number of weekly active users was lower, and this information is due in the article body. However, the num_users template parameter is for registered users, not active users, and the weekly active users figure doesn't belong in the infobox because there's no parameter for it. — Newslinger talk 13:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Please give ref-names NAMES rather than numbers

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T52568

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T92432

People, please stop using ":1" and such as ref-names, in violation of WP:REFNAME. Going forward, please don't do this. And could someone go through and give substantive descriptive names to the named references, in compliance with WP:REFNAME? -- Softlavender (talk) 21:22, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

This is probably an artefact of the visual editor. GorillaWarfare (talk) 03:34, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Inaccurate citation

Within the opening paragraph of the article, it bizarrely states (bearing in mind online accounts are already difficult to verify) "A majority of Gab's users are white, a majority are male, and a majority are conservative.". Bizarrely, next to the citation on Wikipedia, it re-echoes this same inaccuracy as if though quoted from the study: "We also show that the majority of Gab users are conservative, male, and Caucasian."

However, if one visits the citation in question: https://arxiv.org/abs/1807.03688

One notices that A) there is no such quote, and B) the thing being cited is stated as a "preprint", and ergo the full paper isn't actually cited: "This is a preprint of a paper that will appear on ASONAM'18". There appears to be no full version printed anywhere. Even more suspiciously, when one checks the authorship of the paper and if it's endorsed: https://arxiv.org/auth/show-endorsers/1807.03688

One finds that "Lucas Henrique Costa De Lima" is not endorsed, which as the ArXiv page on endorsements explains basically means they're not known within scientific circles (IE it's not a (preprint) paper by a reputable individual): https://arxiv.org/help/endorsement

This raises serious questions of credibility in the claims being made that Gab has a "majority" of white users. Essentially, the quote isn't in the citation; the citation itself is an abstract for (what appears to be) an unpublished paper; the author doesn't have any known credibility in the subject area, and the claim itself is contentious at best given there's no reliable way to determine the ethnicity of an electronic account by external observation alone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.220.70 (talk) 17:51, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

You're wrong, this article exists.

In your defense, I know little about the veracity of the claims of this study. Your accusation that the article doesn't exist, however, is entirely baseless. Not to sound mean, but you should've done more research before calling the citation inaccurate and saying the article doesn't exist. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 21:25, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Information About Gab's Logo

Is there a good place to find information about Gab's logo? I'd like to mention when the logo got switched from Gabby to its current, more generic one. I remember when Tsumikiria reverted my edit he said "IIRC they used it before the shooting", but I don't know what IIRC means, and I would like a specific, citeable source. The closest thing I got to that was a unsourced claim on one of the Gab articles on Infogalactic which vaguely states it got changed in September 2018. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 21:09, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

The frog logo is mentioned in reliable sources as being the Gab logo as late as October 2018, when the site was taken offline: [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]. It is possible that, and appears that, the logo may have changed in September 2018 when the company acquired, and switched to, the domain name gab.com [15], [16], but that does not extinguish the prominent and much-commented-on use of the frog logo for the first two years of its existence [17], [18], [19], [20], [21]. -- Softlavender (talk) 21:52, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't disagree with you. But the fact that the logo was a frog for two years doesn't extinguish the new, also prominent logo. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 04:37, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The new logo isn't "prominent". It's just the word "gab", in green. Softlavender (talk) 04:55, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

How is it less prominent than Gabby? AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 21:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

First Sentence in History

I was wondering if you guys support this slight change to the first sentence of the History section:

Original: Gab was created in August 2016, billing itself as an alternative to the social networking site Twitter.

Proposed change: Gab was created in August 2016, billing itself as a "free speech" alternative to the social networking site Twitter. (quotation marks are unnecessary but serve to placate the anti-Gab crowd)

Why: Not only is this claim supported by citation 12, which in its very title mentions this, this serves to inform further sections, more specifically it nicely tees up the mention of Wired's doubt of the sincerity of their free speech claims.

What do you guys think? I would like to hear detailed responses, as I suspect I will likely get backlash for suggesting this edit, even though it is supported by the citations and evidence already provided in the article. I would like to understand where you guys are coming from and your POV on this matter. Additionally, I previously made two edits that addressed this but were reverted for other things in portions unrelated to this matter. I don't want to be accused of edit-warring, I just want the article to be fair! AKA Casey Rollins (Talk With Casey) 21:19, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I approve of this change. X-Editor (talk) 04:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Its freeze peach marketing can be described elsewhere, but not here. Appending a sentence or a paragraph describing that would be more appropriate, but all of this risks WP:SYNTH. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 21:29, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2019

"listed far-right conspiracy theorist websites Breitbart News and InfoWars as its main competitors." Breitbart is rightwing, info wars is right conspiracy theory. No source claims Breitbart is a conspiracy theory site. The Washington post article referenced does not make this claim. InfoWars is commonly known as conspiracy theory even though the Washington Post article does not make this claim it would seem like a fair label. Change to "listed far-right website Breitbart and far-right conspiracy theory website InfoWars as its main competitors." One cannot make up info just to make a sentence flow better! Thanks. 2607:FEA8:2C5F:F9C7:3162:88E4:119B:BBC7 (talk) 05:46, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Nice try. PaulCHebert (talk) 06:50, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: its wrong DannyS712 (talk) 14:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

If I remember correctly Breitbart has perpetuated consipiracy theories in the past. It's not often, and I don't think that qualifies them as a "conspiracy theorist website" since that's not their main feature, but the distinguishment between "conspiracy theory site" and "site that has occasionally promoted conspiracy theories" is so minute and insignificant that this edit is quite unwarranted. Additionally, Brietbart isn't "rightwing", they are "far right". Big difference. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 21:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Gab Dissenter merge

I've proposed that Gab Dissenter be merged into this page. At this point there's really not much sourcing on that page, and since it was released so recently, there hasn't been a ton of coverage. The "Examples of use" section on that page is really weak—if I wasn't going to propose a merge I'd have removed it myself—so it's really just the lead that would need to be added to this page (and much of it already exists in this page already). GorillaWarfare (talk) 17:31, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

• Merge because a) there's almost nothing there; b) Dissenter is deeply connected to Gab, and not its own thing; c) it's likely to be just another fart in the wind and thus won't get any real coverage, and d) there's one fewer place that we have to monitor. --Jorm (talk) 17:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• SNOW Speedy Merge. This does not require either permission or a discussion. Gab Dissenter is a clear WP:CONTENTFORK which has little to no independent encyclopedic notability and should be instantly merged and redirected. Softlavender (talk) 19:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Snow speedy merge with a side helping of WTF and how the fuck would they even do that? Simonm223 (talk) 19:48, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Speedy Merge - Gab Dissenter in all respect fails WP:GNG spectacularly. More than a dozen similar services have failed in the past and this one is just another publicity attempt. The fact that they specifically advertised for the use on Wikipedia is indicative that this is Torba's retaliation against his failed canvassing attempts here. And we're not going to give him another chance. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 20:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Don't merge – WP:PRODUCT states that a company's products can have their own article if "the company article is so large that this would make the article unwieldy", which is purely subjective. I think the Gab page is large enough on its own, and this would bloat it even more (even though this is a different service). If it helps, consider Gab a Twitter alternative, and Dissenter a Reddit alternative. It's not only an extension, but a fully-fledged website. So it should definitely have its own article. Alex.osheter (talk) 20:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Don't merge per WP:PRODUCT. X-Editor (talk) 21:22, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Merge for now I think for the moment it should be merged, since I think it's widely considered a spinoff project of Gab, but (in my opinion) isn't notable enough to have its own article. If it ever becomes notable and there are some good references for it it will probably deserve its own page, but that time is not now. AKA Casey Rollins Talk With Casey 21:22, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Don't merge WP:PRODUCT, article is notable enough, and has already received substantial media attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.107.79.14 (talk) 22:55, 28 February 2019 (UTC) — 50.107.79.14 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Comment: WP:PRODUCT obviously doesn't apply here; Gab Dissenter is less than 250 words long. Softlavender (talk) 23:47, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
• Don't merge WP:PRODUCT. This article isn't about Gab the company, it's about Gab the social media platform. Dissenter is an app and a separate offering with a a separate domain, and is described in separate and substantial media coverage which also describes the product as being separate from Gab. Articles for WhatsApp and Instagram aren't merged into Facebook. The article for the Periscope app isn't merged into Twitter. Articles for Dissenter and Gab shouldn't be merged either. Ginjuice4445 (talk) 00:07, 1 March 2019 (UTC)