Talk:Michael Jackson

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MJ Singles Template

Why is it that this is not in this page? Looking at every other page of an artist, they all have that in there first page. There are not many templates in this page, so obviously its not crowded or anything. I think it should be there as this is probably the second most important template about this subject. BTW This is a response to @SNUGGUMS: revert. - Awardmaniac (talk) 22:29, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

"Every other page of an artist" is exaggerating, and it's overstuffing this page because we already have the main MJ navbox template in his bio. No need for both. Keep Template: Michael Jackson songs in the song articles instead. This article also already has plenty of templates listed. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:38, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Slash

Block evasion by Special:Contributions/92.10.210.184.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Slash should be in the associates acts.89.241.108.216 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2019 (UTC) We cant add every single person Michael worked with. Only the most significant. - Awardmaniac (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC) Michael's association with Slash lasted many years. I'm a little curious why his association with Janet, Lionel Richie or Stevie Wonder is considered more significant. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC) Slash was never credited as a featuring artist. He played guitar on some of his songs and some times on stage. But so did some other people. Janet and Michael did a hit song together and have worked together few times with other stuff. Stevie wonder has done some duets together. Lionel Richie and Michael wrote one of the best selling songs of all time. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:35, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Michael's middle name is Joe. It's misleading to say it's Joseph.

His birth/legal name had always been Joe. It's been on his FBI file. I know he has written "Joseph" a few times but that doesn't mean it's his birth name. Joe has been used more than Joseph throughout his life and in documents that demand a legal name. His marriage certificate with Lisa Marie Presley is riddled with errors so it's not reliable, therefore its legality is in question, too.

Wikipedia shouldn't mislead people or produce falsehoods. Please change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Partytemple (talk • contribs)

Can you provide links to prove this? SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:07, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

FBI files used Michael Joe Jackson:

https://vault.fbi.gov/Michael%20Jackson/Michael%20Jackson%20Part%2003%20of%2007/view

It also states his true name was Michael Joe Jackson on page 47 of the files.

2004 Indictment used Michael Joe Jackson:

https://la.utexas.edu/users/jmciver/357L/Jackson/Michael%20Jackson%20indictment.pdf

Autopsy report used Michael Joseph Jackson:

http://www.thetruthaboutmj.com/Autopsy_Full_Report_0208_mj_case_report_wm.pdf

1994 Deposition; Michael referred to himself as Michael Joseph Jackson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTo8M_V_Oh4

Further citations and explanations of name usage and laws on this blog: http://mjjinfo.blogspot.com/2012/04/michael-jacksons-birth-name-truelegal.html

It appears he used Joe and Joseph interchangeably, but his true name has Joe as his middle name. He probably used Joseph because it was derived from his father's name which is Joseph, but also uses Joe.

Here is a video disputing Michael and Lisa Marie's marriage's legality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxOv-Ap0_4

The title sounds like a click-bait conspiracy video, but the actual content came from an investigative report.

The marriage certificate in question (ignore the forum comments if you'd like but the image of the marriage certificate appears to be real): http://mjwc.proboards.com/thread/947/michael-lmp-marriage

Priscilla Presley and Katherine Jackson are spelled incorrectly. The location of the ceremony is questionable.

Also, Michael's article uses Taraborrelli's book a lot. I find Taraborrelli's research of his subjects scant, as if he would pick up tid-bits of statements from relatively reliable sources and then put in his own uncorroborated material for parts he can't complete with what he found, or fictionalize his subjects into caricatures. In other words, his biographies could be filled with his own fluff.

For example, he wrote a story about Michael and Madonna's date in which he claimed Michael told him that Madonna took Michael's sunglasses off and threw it out of the car they were in. Madonna inadvertently disputed this story by stating in her VMAs tribute to Michael in 2009 (https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/read-madonnas-vmas-speech-dedicated-to-michael-jackson-82857/) that Michael willingly tossed his glasses.

I think Taraborrelli's materials require cross-examination, if possible. Michael Jackson was an extremely private person who had a retinue of bodyguards, PR people, and managers, many of whom would be willing to protect his image even unto their deaths. It may be impossible to know Michael's private life to its full extent, so I would refrain from using Taraborrelli's books especially when they're replete with personal details. Court documents and FBI investigations, on the other hand, are much more reliable since perjury, or lying to the Fed's, is a felony. Partytemple (talk) 21:58, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

That's quite some digging! As for spelling errors on the marriage certificate (presuming that's the real thing), I could be wrong, but my guess is that the document not being in English had something to do with it. I would however like to get input from other users before changing things because "Michael Joe Jackson" has for quite some time been listed as an alternate name while "Michael Joseph Jackson" has been accepted as the main identity. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:53, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Seems like it is Joe. since that name is being used in all legal situation. But then again the death certificate say it's Joseph. If we change to "Michael Joe Jackson". I think we should mention Joseph to, somewhere. Since that is what he called himself and etc. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Infobox caption

The caption should give the date but not re-state his name. It's obvious it's a picture of Michael Jackson, because his name is directly above the photograph, and also the title of the article, and he's the only person in the picture. Who else would it be? Nobody would be confused by this. For readers who do not get pictures, they don't need a description of a picture they don't see. "Michael Jackson performing in 2006" does not assist the reader in any way. The reader would see "Michael Jackson [image not shown] (in 2006)" instead of "Michael Jackson [image not shown] Michael Jackson performing in 2006". I'd be ok with "Performing in 2006" as a compromise, but that is also bloody obvious from the fact that it's a picture of him singing into a microphone. WP:YOUDONTSAY, and this should be the rule for all captions everywhere on the project. Leviv ich 23:54, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

How would you feel about including a specific event/place if known? For the current pic (File:Michael Jackson in 1988.jpg), there could be something on the Wiener Stadion in Austria within its caption. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:33, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I would feel great about that. Location and date are both information that would be useful to the reader. Even the name of the tour if that were known. Leviv ich 00:36, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@SNUGGUMS: IMO, a good caption for that picture would be something that gives useful (non-obvious) information to the reader, like this: At Weiner Stadion in Vienna, June 2, 1988, during the second leg of the Bad World Tour. Leviv ich 00:44, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

The leg part is a bit much, and its file source doesn't specify a tour (though I personally wouldn't be surprised if it was from that one). I'm still fine with including stadium and location. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 00:59, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I like "At Weiner Stadion in Vienna, June 2, 1988, during the Bad World Tour". Is that good or is it to long? Awardmaniac (talk) 01:02, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Too long; we're better off just using a tour name (if it can be found for certain) or just a location. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Bad World Tour lists the June 2, 1988 show in Vienna. At the time it was called the Praterstadion and I guess now it's the Ernst-Happel-Stadion aka Weiner Stadion. I'm good with any combination of city/venue/date/tour. Leviv ich 01:08, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Maybe just "At Weiner Stadion in Vienna, June 2, 1988" Awardmaniac (talk) 01:09, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

I've gone with "At the Weiner Stadion in Vienna, Austria on June 2, 1988" here. Let's not presume everyone who understands the English language automatically knows where Vienna is. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Good. I like it. Awardmaniac (talk) 01:13, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Thanks! Leviv ich 01:14, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

HBO

Any thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:57, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

No. what about it? Awardmaniac (talk) 00:16, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Seriously? How will this article cover it? --MarchOrDie (talk) 07:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

It already has its own article: Leaving Neverland. If it gets enough coverage to become super-notable it might be worth mentioning briefly in the main Michael Jackson article, but right now it isn't. Popcornduff (talk) 07:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Because it is negative? --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No. Because MJ is a huge topic, the article on him is already huge, and this single documentary hasn't yet established enough attention to be mentioned here. See WP:UNDUE. If it gets more attention and coverage after it's released next month that might change. Popcornduff (talk) 08:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

It has already been covered in this article and in Leaving Neverland. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:10, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes indeed. Do we need to have a verbatim quote rubbishing it? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:19, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Its a respond from the family, both sides should and are being used. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

A "respond"? This isn't how Wikipedia articles are written. It certainly isn't how Featured Articles are written. --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I meant, it shows both sides. As bth sides should and is being written about. That is how Wikipedia works. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:25, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@MarchOrDie: I stand corrected. I didn't realise the article already mentions the documentary. I agree that the current inclusion isn't right - there's too much emphasis on the family reaction. I'm not convinced the doc is even notable enough to be mentioned here at all, as I said earlier.

@Awardmaniac: The job of Wikipedia is not always, necessarily, to report both sides. See WP:FALSEBALANCE. Popcornduff (talk) 12:45, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

There is literally just one quote, nothing more. Also I do agree that the film is not notable enough to be mentioned. There are hundreds of movies and docs about him, that gets released every few months, non get even mentioned. So we can remove it from this article. Awardmaniac (talk) 16:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

There is no need for any quote here. In my opinion there is a need to mention the documentary. --MarchOrDie (talk) 16:53, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I removed it, since we all seem to agree. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

• No, I don't agree to that. As I just said. MarchOrDie (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

You just said "there is a need to mention the documentary" and popcornfuff said the doc is not notable enough to be mentioned. No? Awardmaniac (talk) 19:34, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes exactly. I think there is a need to mention the documentary. So I do not agree to its removal. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok. I accidentally read a as no. lol. Still at this moment two people say, there is no need and one say there is a need. You are welcome to argue your point. But I think we can not and should not mention every single film made about him in this page, this is not IMDB. "Leaving Neverland" is not mentioned, the same reason "Michael Jackson: Life of an Icon" is not mentioned. Its not relevant. Awardmaniac (talk) 21:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

LOL indeed. Twice. Consensus is not a voting process. Coverage in significant quality sources. Guardian, NME, Esquire, Variety, etc etc. And that's before it has even screened. I think this line you are taking will be very hard to justify. --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Well those coverage is significant for the Leaving Neverland article. Many other stuff that is about him has also received significant coverage. Does not mean they are fit for the main page about the subject. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

@MarchOrDie: I think it will depend on how much, if at all, the documentary affects Jackson's legacy. As Awardmaniac says, there have been a trillion documentaries about Michael Jackson over the years, and while some (including Leaving Neverland) are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles, not all are notable enough to add to the main Michael Jackson article, especially considering its length.

Right now the film is being discussed because it was screened at Sundance so the reviews are out there. My inclination is to wait for the documentary to receive the major release (next month, right?) and see how important it ends up being to the article subject in terms of the big picture.

That said, I don't feel strongly about this. I would not oppose summarising the documentary in a single sentence if others felt it were necessary. Popcornduff (talk) 08:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

That's perfectly reasonable. The length of the article is another problem that can be dealt with separately; see section below. The article is not currently of Featured Article quality, and a lot of the problem is fluff that has been added since the subject's death. --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:34, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I see no consensus for this removal. There should at least be a "See also" link in the section pointing to that page. Jackson documentaries that are notable enough for their own articles should be linked from this main article in some way, just like we link other subarticles in some way.

I also see no valid rationale for stating that the article "is not currently of Featured Article quality." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Updated "Associated acts"

I think we should discuss what artist deserves to be named in that list. Like, Michael only did one song with Lionel Richie. Does he really deserve a spot? Awardmaniac (talk) 00:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No, he doesn't. The list isn't for one-off collaborations. Off the top of my head I'd say only the Jacksons should be in that list. Popcornduff (talk) 03:11, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I would leave Quincy Jones and Teddy Riley as well, though I hesitate to call a producer an "act". Eman235/talk 04:31, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I did consider that, but as both Riley and Jones served as producers with MJ, I'm not sure they served in capacity as "acts" either. Popcornduff (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Given Michael's multiple collaborations with his sister Janet, I'd say she qualifies along with Jackson 5. Definitely not supposed to be a list of one-song-only collaborations. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 04:40, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Michael has a couple of songs with Paul, stevie and diana ross. I think they qualify. right? Awardmaniac (talk) 11:12, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Nope. Would need to be an act he worked with pretty extensively or regularly, like he did with the Jacksons, or an act that he's particularly notable for working with. MJ isn't most noted because of his work with Stevie Wonder. Popcornduff (talk) 12:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

So. Only the Jacksons?. Is everyone on board with this? Awardmaniac (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Just Janet and Jackson 5. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 20:13, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Some other names have done multiple collaborations with Michael. Have they not? I dont understand how Janet is any different other then being his sister. Is it because they have worked together for a longer period of time? Awardmaniac (talk) 20:20, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Pretty much. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

That's valid, I guess. Since the work together has been for many many years, unlike the other ones. What does popcornduff think? Awardmaniac (talk) 22:32, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Despite having done extensive work on MJ-related articles I'm not the biggest MJ fan. I know he did a duet with Janet on Scream. What else? I did a quick google but it didn't produce anything obvious. Popcornduff (talk) 07:53, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Needs review

I was just reading the 2008 discussion to make this a FA. Standards were lower in those days and/or the article has deteriorated. I think it now needs to be reviewed. My preference would be to do that here. Any thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:23, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

The article looks fine. Well written and well sourced. And it seems to follow all the standards by the looks of it. Awardmaniac (talk) 11:27, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, thanks for your opinion. Any thoughts on the question I asked? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:39, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

You can review it if you want. I have no problem with that. Im all for any kind of improvement if necessary. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm talking about WP:FAR. It'd be better to discuss here first I think. --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure. You can do that if you want. I dont think that is needed at the moment. But that is just me. Let see what other people think. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:03, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

No indeed, it is not up to you. If we can't talk out the problems with the article here, we will have to involve others. --MarchOrDie (talk) 22:17, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Totally agree. I just gave my opinion. That's it. Please don't be hostile or anything. We are all here to help. Thank you. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:22, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, a number of experienced editors have kept this article in good shape. The edit history shows this. The article has expanded over the years, but it has also been trimmed and tweaked over the years where needed. I don't see that it isn't FA anymore or needs to be demoted. If you could make a valid case for why it's not of FA quality anymore, I'd be inclined to agree. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:52, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, seems like we have some overdetails and images in this article. --Chrishonduras (talk) 22:44, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Here's a sample of some problems that I see on reading the article:

Lead

• Los Angeles, California, U.S. is overlinking
• Dubbed the "King of Pop"... but then we link the same article under see also. WP:SEEALSO says not to do this.
• Cites in lead; why? Doesn't seem to conform to WP:LEADCITE.
• In 1993, he was accused of sexually abusing the child of a family friend; the case led to an investigation but was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount in 1994. Why "but"?
• In 2005, he was tried and acquitted of further child sexual abuse allegations and several other charges after the jury found him not guilty on all counts. So he was acquitted and found not guilty? Hmm.

I also notice that he dies twice (three times including the lead). Like I say, standards have risen and the quality of the article has fallen away since the version that was promoted. There's a lot that needs to be improved in the article for it to meet FA standards. --MarchOrDie (talk) 09:57, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Some good copyediting points there. Would you be interested in doing a ce sweep of the article or does that inspire dread? Popcornduff (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, you are talking about minor issues that are easily and quickly fixed. You have not pointed to one major issue. You ask "why" use "but." Why not? It seems to me that the editor used "but" because the investigation did not lead to a trial. If you want to add "and" in place of "but," do so. You stated that you "notice that he dies twice (three times including the lead)." Huh? The lead states "Jackson died of acute propofol and benzodiazepine intoxication, after suffering from cardiac arrest." It also mentions that the Coroner "ruled his death a homicide." And it states "Jackson's death triggered a global outpouring of grief, and a live broadcast of his public memorial service was viewed around the world." Are we not supposed to use the word death again in the lead after initially noting he died? I'm not sure what you mean about dying twice, with regard to the lead or elsewhere in the article. As for cites in the lead, WP:LEADCITE is clear that it's a case-by-case matter. So I don't see why you think having cites in the lead of this article doesn't conform to WP:LEADCITE. WP:FAR, in the "Nominating an article" part of the text, states, "Before nomination, raise issues at talk page of the article. Attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors, and to informally improve the article." Well, that is what we are doing. You are free to copyedit, obviously. Popcornduff is always copyediting the article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 11:16, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I think the article needs more than a "copyedit", it is so bad.

• What and where is the "Weiner Stadion"?
• About half of the Aftermath section needs to go.
• Overall, the article reads like it was written by fans, and that's not a good read. --MarchOrDie (talk) 10:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
  • 90% of the stuff about Wade Robson can go, for a start. Popcornduff (talk) 11:28, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
    • I agree. This section isn't NPOV to the degree required for FA. --MarchOrDie (talk) 13:18, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Still nothing substantial pointing to a need to delist the article. About half of the Aftermath section needs to go? Why? The article reads like it was written by fans? I'm not seeing it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:38, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I think you need to look at more celebrity WP:GA and WP:FA articles, ranging from musician articles to actor articles, to get a sense of what is acceptable. And especially the ones that reached WP:GA and WP:FA relatively recently. I state this because comparing this article to the various WP:GA and WP:FA celebrity articles I see any day, including ones that have reached WP:GA and WP:FA relatively recently, I cannot at all see what you mean by "it is so bad." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:45, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

So you consider the Aftermath section currently meets standards? Other articles need not concern us here. MarchOrDie (talk) 17:05, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

That parts of an article need improvement does not automatically equate to "this article needs to be delisted." "FA" does not automatically equate to "perfect." More from me below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• Here's another beauty: It was reported that Jackson had offered to buy the bones of Joseph Merrick (the "Elephant Man") and, although untrue, Jackson did not deny the story. So, Jackson was untrue? A lot of this is poorly written, it suffers from too positive a tone; for example, there are 13 instances of the word "successful". I know Jackson was a very successful entertainer, but 13 is too many. Here's the worst instance: HIStory was promoted with the successful HIStory World Tour, beginning on September 7, 1996, and ending on October 15, 1997. Jackson performed 82 concerts in five continents, 35 countries and 58 cities to over 4.5 million fans, and grossed a total of $165 million, becoming Jackson's most successful tour in terms of audience figures. (my emphasis); the article is riddled with stuff like this. The prose is not, in my considered opinion, "engaging and of a professional standard". --MarchOrDie (talk) 02:19, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• I've reworked that tour bit here. Something to keep in mind is that multiple instances of "successful" are part of a distinction, namely "Most Successful Entertainer of All Time" Guinness World Record, and one of them is contained within a citation title. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 03:27, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• I'm well aware of that and well done for changing that one word. Here's another cracker; this is from the first of the two times he dies: Less than three weeks before the first show was due to begin in London, with all concerts sold out, Jackson died after suffering cardiac arrest. Some time before his death, it was reported that he was starting a clothing line with Christian Audigier. Textbook non sequitur. And I see we still have the "Weiner Stadion". On the plus side, we also have an article improvement tag. That's good, because this article could do with some improvements. --MarchOrDie (talk) 09:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

• It is best remembered for Jackson's solo performance of "Billie Jean", which earned Jackson his first Emmy nomination. Why say the name twice? --MarchOrDie (talk) 09:56, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
• His subsequent rhinoplasty was not a complete success; he complained of breathing difficulties that would affect his career. "Would"? Meaning he was worried that it might? Or meaning that it did? It's almost every sentence. --MarchOrDie (talk) 10:10, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

And as I've already suggested to you before, copyedit the article. Beyond sentences that can do with better wording, which is something that also applies to a number of articles that recently reached FA standard, and beyond material that should be trimmed, you have yet to make a strong case that we should delist this article. A case to review it? Yes. That is happening now. Like WP:FAR notes, an official review is not necessarily needed to improve an article. I've also noted above that WP:FAR is partly about attempting to fix matters before trying to delist an article. The goal isn't even to delist the article. The goal is improvement. Consistently pointing out wording issues, or issues you consider to be wording issues, on this talk page instead of fixing the matters yourself prolongs the improvement process. Expecting us to make changes per things you've identified as problems isn't the best route to take unless it's clear that we (or at least one of us) are following your lead. I don't mean any offense by this, but some of the things you've identified seem like nitpicking to me. For example, I did not get "So, Jackson was untrue?" from the text you pointed to above. You keep talking about FA standards, but I don't see that you have brought articles to FA status. If you brought one more articles to FA status, pointing to one or more of them as indicators of your experience and examples of good prose might be helpful. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:12, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't particularly want to have it delisted, but I do want it to be greatly improved. I hope we can agree on the need for this from the examples I have given, and the editors who have agreed with me. I wasn't aware we had to prove our credentials like this to have our opinions taken seriously, but since you ask, I was co-nom on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Little Moreton Hall/archive1 and had a fair bit of input on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Maus/archive2. Both articles were considerably better written than this one. I hope we can work together to sort out the problems under discussion. --MarchOrDie (talk) 21:31, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

@MarchOrDie: I agree with the points you raise here about the prose problems. (BTW, I think Flyer is missing the problem with the "Jackson was untrue" part.) I've personally removed hundreds of words from the article over the years, but it still needs more work. I don't even think the biography part is the worst part.

That said - having written and reviewed a few FAs, and being dismayed at the quality of prose, I've stopped caring about FA. Without wanting to lecture, I do feel a bit of WP:SOFIXIT coming here. You've taken the time to identify several prose problems - so fix them! Popcornduff (talk) 07:29, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that's fair comment and you're not the first to suggest it. I think there will be quite major cuts from the post-death stuff (and elsewhere) and I don't want to go to a lot of work then for it to be reverted using the article's FA status as a reason. --MarchOrDie (talk) 08:33, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

"This article passed FA, therefore no change can be an improvement" is the thing that takes me from neutral to furious in the fastest time on Wikipedia. Just go for it. Popcornduff (talk) 08:39, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, regarding credentials, there have been editors going on about what is good or featured article material with no experience on what is good or featured article material. The comments are often based on their personal preference rather than on what is an acceptable GA or FA article. Sometimes they simply want the article delisted because they don't like that the article is GA or FA. Yes, they may sometimes have a valid case about the prose needing work or that something should be cut, but anyone who has seen or actually been involved in an FA discussion knows that it's not uncommon for editors to disagree on what is better prose or on what should be included or excluded. All I was stating is that I don't see anything that screams "Shouldn't be an FA article anymore" when I look at the article. That things need improvement doesn't automatically mean "Shouldn't be an FA article" to me. I see that you have been copyediting and making some cuts. That's a start toward improvement. If you remove something that you think an editor is likely to object to, it's likely best that you address the matter on the talk page first.

Popcornduff, LOL. I understand what you mean regarding the "This article passed FA, therefore no change can be an improvement" argument. Obviously, besides some articles being able to be improved even after passing FA, some FA articles do lose their FA quality. And, as made clear by MarchOrDie, the FA standards might have changed since the article passed FA. But I also understand WP:STEWARDSHIP. Its section about featured article states, "While Featured articles [...] are open for editing like any other, they have gone through a community review process as Featured article candidates, where they are checked for high-quality sources, a thorough survey of the relevant literature, and compliance with the Featured Article criteria. Editors are asked to take particular care when editing a Featured article; it is considerate to discuss significant changes of text or images on the talk page first." And WP:CAREFUL advises similarly. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:57, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

The Aftermath section is a problem. It needs trimming, and probably also needs to be split into smaller sections, unless we're going to consider everything that happens for the rest of time to be the "aftermath" of Jackson's death. Popcornduff (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree on both counts. Articles tend to look like this when they have been written by fans. We don't need every single thing about him recorded. The article is more powerful and more readable if we can be discriminating and use editorial judgement about what, in the big scheme of things, he will be remembered for. I've started to whittle away at it over the last two days (thanks to the three other editors who contributed to that diff). He only dies once now, and some of the worst ambiguity, repetition and fanspeak has been toned down. The data tables were out of place; it'd be nice if there was some place on Wikipedia to keep them, but this article wasn't it. There's more of course, but I thought I'd pause and give others a chance to chip in. --MarchOrDie (talk) 23:18, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

You made a lot of good changes to the article. Regarding this, though, I'd avoid "denied" per WP:Claim. And like I noted before, there was no need at all to remove the references out of the lead; in this case, it's a personal preference matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 17:40, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! I changed it; I couldn't live with "adamant" on an encyclopedia article. Regarding cites in the lead, you're right that it's a matter of choice; but two points. First, I always see dozens of superscripts in the lead as a terrible sign of a "controversial" article which is under constant dispute. A stable article can show this by just citing things in the body. Second, in sifting through the lead, I found quite a few things that weren't mentioned anywhere else. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section tells us "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." Whether we need all these factoids is another question, of course, but they shouldn't be in the lead and nowhere else. --MarchOrDie (talk) 19:28, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I understand what you mean about citations in the lead indicating that the topic is controversial, but I don't often get that impression when I see citations in the lead unless I know it's a controversial topic. Yes, Jackson is a controversial topic in part, but he's no longer alive and the child sexual abuses cases are well-known. So, other than the occasional editor who might wonder if something in the lead is cited lower in the article or the newbie who thinks that something in the lead isn't cited at all because they don't see a reference for it there, I don't much mind that you moved the references out of the lead. But again, WP:CITELEAD does note when sources should be in the lead. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:30, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I put hidden text in for the newbie. Speaking for referencing, don't you think a lot of it is over-referenced? I can't see how we would need more than two references for most things. On the other hand, I think we should be very careful with primary sources. --MarchOrDie (talk) 00:29, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Also, I think it's untenable to have the note on the controversy about his actual sales only appear in the lead. --MarchOrDie (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

If it's fine either way to have citations in the lead, I say remove them. Why include something we don't need?

MarchOrDie, your work on this article has been stellar. Keep up the good work. By the way, you know that, strictly speaking, a factoid is a false statement presented as fact, right? I assume when you say "factoid" here you mean in the newer sense of "trivia" but just checking... I don't mean to be pedantic, just trying to figure out what your stance on this info is. Popcornduff (talk) 02:42, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Popcornduff for the recognition and for your help in trimming and honing the article. Speaking as a pedant myself, I love that you zoom in on my use of language like that. I mean it in the second sense, but of course, in most cases truth is subjective and consensual, so the two meanings are probably two ends of a continuum rather than separate concepts.

Here's another reference-related issue. At present we have:

Jackson explored genres including pop, soul, rhythm and blues, funk, rock, disco, post-disco, dance-pop and new jack swing.

I think on an important peer-reviewed high-traffic article like this those references should be bundled so there is one superscript in the running text (neater) but also, importantly, they should be attributed in the bundled reference. So we know who said "pop", who said "soul", and so on. I don't regard this as controversial and I would have done it myself, but I don't know how. Does anybody here know how to do that? --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:04, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I imagine Template:Refn would be involved, but I can't for the life of me figure it out. --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

MarchOrDie, yes, I saw the hidden note. Some newbies might comment before attempting to edit the article, though. And readers who are not editors won't see the hidden note. But it's not a big deal that you moved the references out of the lead. As for this, why did you remove the Paul McCartney material? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

As for WP:BUNDLING, yes, I know how to do it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Can you show me? Or direct me to an intelligible instruction set? As for Macca, you're referring to According to Paul McCartney, he contacted Yoko Ono about making a joint purchase by splitting the cost at £10 million each, but Ono thought they could buy it for £5 million each. and An attorney for McCartney assured Branca that McCartney was not interested in bidding. McCartney felt it was too expensive, but several other companies and investors were interested in bidding. I thought, and still do think, that this is an excessive degree of detail on an article about Michael Jackson. The article suffers from over-comprehensiveness, which is one of three reasons it is so long (although I think it's better than it was a week ago). The others are over-referencing and (although I've tried to tone it down somewhat) a slight air of having been written by fans, for whom every word and action of Jackson needs to be recorded. It doesn't, and what person C thought person D thought about a business deal doesn't belong either. In my opinion. --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding bundling, do you mean what I did with this reference (reference 164) at the Star Wars: The Last Jedi article? If so, this edit shows how I did it. As for McCartney, that material seems relevant because McCartney felt the need to comment on that. If it wasn't important that he clarified, why did he? That stated, we can leave that to the Sony/ATV Music Publishing article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:11, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

___

References

Primary sources?

I see a few things cited to things on the Smoking Gun website. Opinion is divided on whether this constitutes a primary or a secondary source for Wikipedia's purposes. A fair summary is "use with care". What makes this a high-quality source for a Featured article? If there is material there that can be better sourced, maybe we should keep it. But we are drowning in material and the article might be better for removal of some of the dubiously sourced stuff. Thoughts? --MarchOrDie (talk) 23:35, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

When I was hacking my way through the (once godawful, now hopefully slightly less so) Trial of Michael Jackson article, I threw out any reference to the Smoking Gun. It looks dubious to me and there seems to be uncertainty about exactly how great a source it is. We should do better. Popcornduff (talk) 02:54, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

I've removed them. --MarchOrDie (talk) 07:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

1994 « out of court settlement »

In the introduction, regarding the first accusation of sexual abuse, it is said that “the case led to an investigation but was settled out of court for an undisclosed amount in 1994”. Then in the dedicated section, it is said that “On January 1, 1994, Jackson settled with the Chandlers out of court for $22 million”. This statement doesn't seem to be sourced (I haven't checked the sources provided for the following sentences of that paragraph). So where does this information come from, and how reliable is it ?--Abolibibelot (talk) 17:43, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I changed to "an undisclosed amount" for now, since the source makes no mention of 22 million. Awardmaniac (talk) 22:07, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I don't know if I'm allowed to change it but I heard the amount was $25 million, with $18 million alone to the accuser. I can source it but I fear they may just revert it. I think "undisclosed" is good for now but whatever it was, it was definitely in the $20-25 million range. BrothaTimothy (talk · contribs) 02:32, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

I think if we can get a decent source for the amount, we should use it. --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:33, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Spoken Wikipedia audio file available

I have created an audio reading of this article and uploaded it to the Commons, but am unable to edit the article to add it to the External Links. Could someone do that for me? (FYI it's my first time doing this.) Thanks. —TeragR ^disc./con. 09:16, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done --Walk Like an Egyptian (talk) 00:23, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Jermaine Jackson "plan b"

It should be noted that it was unknowingly by Michael that Jermaine had apparently planned this. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Michael_Jackson&diff=885810817&oldid=885810418). Awardmaniac (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Why? --MarchOrDie (talk) 15:36, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

It seems of doubtful relevance. ——SerialNumber54129 15:45, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Because it is different if someone knows or dont know. It should be added or all of it should be deleted. Awardmaniac (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Who says it is important? Do we have a decent reference that says it makes a difference to the story? --MarchOrDie (talk) 11:14, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

This is called misinformation. The source says one thing. But wikipedia says another. Awardmaniac (talk) 12:51, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Can Someone Edit this Part

At the end of the 3rd paragraph under the section "1993–1994: First child sexual abuse allegations and first marriage" there is this sentence:

"Feldman denied that anybody's silence had been bought."

However, there is no mention of anyone named "Feldman" anywhere in the preceding paragraph, or in the entire article for that matter. According to the citation after that sentence, it seems that the "Feldman" in question is "Larry R. Feldman", the lawyer for Jordan Chandler, who is talked about in the paragraph. That needs to be clarified. I don't yet have 500 edits, so can someone who does please edit this? Thanks Bzzzing (talk) 19:54, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Well spotted. I'd actually favour taking this out; it's the sort of thing that a highly paid defence lawyer would say, and it would be more surprising if he hadn't said that. In my opinion it actually works against the article having that in. --MarchOrDie (talk) 20:47, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Top level section on allegations of and charges for sexual abuse/crimes?

I note that there is no top level section discussing the various allegations and charges made against Jackson of sexual abuse/crimes during his lifetime and after. Instead, this information is scattered through the article. In contrast, to take two examples, both the articles on Harvey Weinstein and Jimmy Savile have top level sections on this subject. I am not pushing for this to happen, just raising the matter and would be interested in seeing pro/con arguments for a re-structuring of the article to group most of the relevant information in such a top level section. Oska (talk) 01:37, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree that it is unfortunate that this material is scattered around the article in a rather arbitrary manner. One editor (the one currently discussed on Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Awardmaniac_again) even removed the heading of the section discussing the most recent allegations so that the material was virtually impossible to find, because it was buried at the end of a section discussing Jackson's will and a statue(!) with a very vague heading. One top-level section section on the abuse controversies would seem like a much better solution.

For example James Safechuck had been named as a victim by Chandler and various witnesses already back in 1993, so chronologically it's unfortunate to discuss his case in a top-level section mainly on Jackson's death, will etc. just because he himself came forward in 2019. --Tataral (talk) 01:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I think there's perhaps enough material about the allegations to warrant its own section - but at the same time, we can't leave them out of the chronological biography, because they're major events. If we can pull this off without too much duplicating it could be a good move. Popcornduff (talk) 02:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there's enough material it's not as in depth or as consistently brought as much as for example R. Kelly to deserve it's own section. This has to be handled carefully because these are allegations that do go against court hearings, the FBI investigation, and past interviews with both accusers stating as adults that nothing happened.Mcelite (talk) 02:28, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

To add some context on why I opened this section/discussion: I am approaching this from a user's point of view, not as an editor. I have no personal interest in editing this particular article as I have little interest in Michael Jackson (his music or career). However I did read an article about the new documentary Leaving Neverland and afterward looked up Jackson's wiki article to get more context on the allegations made in the documentary and detail on any further abuse allegations over his lifetime. As a user I then found I had to trawl through the article to find this information - it wasn't gathered in one place. (And to be honest, that was too much work and I gave up). So for me, the article failed as an encylopedic reference in providing a subset of information on a subject in an accessible way. I don't think I would be alone in looking up the article for this particular use. Oska (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

That's all reasonable.

Another solution might be to have an article dedicated to summarising all the sexual abuse allegations against Jackson. I don't know if this is a good idea. I suggested this recently, but I think the notion filled Flyer22 Reborn with dread. Popcornduff (talk) 13:49, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Regardless of whether we have an article summarizing all the abuse allegations (we already have more specific articles like 1993 child sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson), the abuse allegations would need to be covered (summarized) in this article, and I agree that one top-level section would be the best solution, because it makes the material easier to find and also because it's not a good solution chronologically to scatter the material around based on when the allegations became (most) widely known (many of the allegations in Leaving Neverland had been around since 1993, and are closely linked to the other allegations from that period). --Tataral (talk) 15:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

If a section is decided I guess that would be more functional as an encyclopedic page, but it will have to be watched closely. We must maker sure this stays in neutral standpoint.Mcelite (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Topic ban for Awardmaniac

Awardmaniac is now under a topic ban for articles related to Michael Jackson, broadly construed. This ban was placed after Special:Diff/886454322 and so that edit is not considered to violate the topic ban. I make no statement as to the appropriateness of the contents of the edit, only that the edit itself does not violate the topic ban. Note that the ban extends to this discussion page, too, so please be extra careful about personal attacks here, against an editor who would not be able to respond. --Yamla (talk) 11:13, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

After being informed of his topic ban, Awardmaniac immediately made several Michael Jackson-related edits related to the sexual abuse allegations: [5], [6]. --Tataral (talk) 18:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh I just say the topic ban now? Awardmaniac (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Top lead

It says publicized personal life.. then "including allegations of child sexual abuse". it is not necceseary to include every single controversy. We cant pick and chose what is mentioned and what controversy is not.(like his appearance, drugs and so on, there are many others). It would better to remove that part, especially since it is already mentioned below in the lead. Or we can say just say controversies instead. Awardmaniac (talk) 17:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)