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Summary of Military history WikiProject open tasks watch · edit · full list News and announcements The May newsletter is now available. Editors are advised that Featured Articles promoted before 2016 are in need of review, if you had an article promoted to Featured status on or before 2016 please check and update your article before they are listed at FAR/C. Current discussions No major discussions are open at the moment Featured article candidates Turabay dynasty • Thomas Neville (died 1460) • Battle of Poison Spring • Yugoslav submarine Mališan • Shigi Qutuqu • Sabuktigin • John Savage (soldier) • Tetricus I • Sam Manekshaw Featured article review Edward III of England • Byzantine Empire • Battle of Red Cliffs • Edward I of England • Northrop YF-23 Featured picture candidates Thorsten Nordenfelt A-Class review Henry Biard • Battle of Saipan • Fort Corcoran • Sihanouk Trail • Battle of La Haye-du-Puits • Battle of Tinian • Henry Macandrew • Boot Monument • HMS Sardonyx (1919) • CSS General Earl Van Dorn Peer reviews Muckrach Castle • Charles the Bold • Regency of Algiers • Wolfgang Larrazábal Good article nominees Nazran uprising • Abu'l-Fath Khan Javanshir • Kōka ikki • Ava–Hanthawaddy War (1401–1403) • Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma • Khalji Revolution • 1864 Washington Arsenal explosion • Antoine Hamilton • George II of Greece • Roswell incident • Podgorica Assembly • Masopha • Sam Bahadur (film) • Maximiliano Hernández Martínez • Mohammad Shah Qajar • Battle of Meligalas • Zeppelin-Staaken L • Gubir shootdown • The Defence of Duffer's Drift • Chestertown Armory • Mariano R. Vázquez • Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk • Gotha WD.7 • Cultybraggan Camp • Constantine II (emperor) • First Hunnic War • HMS Menace (1915) • Japanese destroyer Natsuzuki • Ernest J. King • CSS General Polk Good article reassessments Lockheed YF-22 • Galatian War Articles that need... work on referencing and citation (147,402) • only work on referencing and citation (43,150) • work on coverage and accuracy (122,516) • only work on coverage and accuracy (19,641) • work on structure (31,788) • only work on structure (357) • work on grammar (8,185) • only work on grammar (45) • work on supporting materials (32,754) • only work on supporting materials (1,336) • assessment (13) • assessment as lists (123) • project tags fixed (7) • assessment checklists added (13) • assessment checklists completed (34) • task forces added (293) • attention to task force coverage (679)

Milhistbot B-Class assessments

G'day all, Milhistbot has now been run over the unassessed article categories, and has thrown up about 1,800 articles that it thinks are B-Class. As agreed, we need human eyeballs to check these ones. Experienced assessors are encouraged to take a look at User:Hawkeye7/Sandbox6 and check a few of Milhistbot's B-Class assessments. Feel free to downgrade them if you consider they don't meet one or more the criteria, and provide feedback on any trends at User talk:MilHistBot. Please also delete any that you have checked. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:55, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Nominations for military historian of the year for 2019 are open!

Military historian of the year 2019

• 
  First place
• 
  Second place
• 
  Third place

As we approach the end of the year, it is time for us to nominate the editors who we believe have made a real difference to the project. As part of the first step to determining this year's "Military Historian of the Year" award, all Milhist editors are invited to nominate those that they feel deserve a nod of appreciation for their hard work over the past 12 months. The nomination process will commence on 00:01 (GMT) on 2 December 2019 and last until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2019. As the awards process is one of simple approval, opposes are deprecated. After that a new thread will be created and a voting period of 14 days will commence during which editors will be able to cast their simple approval vote for up to three of the nominees. At the end of this period, the top three editors will be awarded the Gold, Silver and Bronze Wiki respectively; all other nominees will receive the WikiProject Barnstar.

Please nominate editors below this line, including links in the nomination statement to the most significant articles/lists/images editors have worked on since 1 January 2019. Please keep nomination statements short and concise; excluding links to the articles/list/images in question, the ideal nomination statement should be about 20 words. Self nominations are frowned upon. Please do not vote until the nominations have been finalized. Thanks, and good luck! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:38, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Nominations

Editors are asked to keep their nominations to 10 editors or less and nominations should be made in the following format:

• [user name]: [reason] ~~~~
• Sturmvogel 66: Relentless, and excellent content creation. By my count, I make it 17 FAs, 27 A-class and a phenomenal 108 GAs this year. But alongside that, is a collegiate member of the project; providing lots of reviews, collaborating on articles and always willing to help out. Probably more that I've missed too. Harrias ^talk 07:17, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• EnigmaMcmxc: for their ongoing work to produce high quality articles on British Army infantry divisions, with several articles being brought to ACR and/or FAC in 2019, including the 77th, 45th, 9th, 59th and 23rd. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• Harrias: for ongoing efforts to produce quality content focused upon the English Civil War including A-class and good articles such as the Capture of Wakefield, Battle of Babylon Hill, Battle of Sourton Down, Battle of Marshall's Elm and Battle of Bovey Heath. In addition, Harrias has been an active reviewer of content, providing insightful comments and suggestions to help improve articles through various processes. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• CPA-5: for fantastic work as a content reviewer at FAC, FL, ACR and GAN, per the tallies here. CPA has also worked to improve articles on topics such as the Bakassi conflict, which is currently a GA nominee. CPA has also been active helping the project in a co-ordinator role. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• Gog the Mild: for their work as a reviewer and content creator - mainly focusing on the Hundred Years War - throughout the year. Gog's reviewing efforts are tallied here (not including the most recent quarter), and examples of their content work can be seen here, including the Battle of Calais, the Siege of Calais (1346–1347), the Battle of Crécy, the Black Prince's chevauchée of 1355, and the Battle of Sluys (among others). Gog also helps the project behind the scenes in a co-ord role. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• Applodion: for great work on African and Middle Eastern conflicts and figures and a pleasant, cooperative attitude. Good examples of their work include War of the Peters, Operation Thunderbolt (1997), Manbij Revolutionaries Battalion, Juma Butabika, and Air campaign of the Uganda–Tanzania War. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:53, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• G.Moore: Turned North Carolina during the American Revolutionary War pretty blue by creating numerous detailed articles about units and personnel, as well as respective lists and templates, e.g. List of North Carolina militia units in the American Revolution, while also improving existing articles about the same. ...GELongstreet (talk) 01:51, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
• Djmaschek: Another state getting some colour with his creation of several articles about Texan units in the American Civil War, e.g. 10th Texas Infantry Regiment. Beside those he also made some about civil war artillery, e.g. 3-inch Ordnance rifle, and artillery units. ...GELongstreet (talk) 02:03, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Voting

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Nominations for this year's "Military Historian of the Year" award have now closed, and it is time to vote for who you think deserves this honour. As with the awards for previous years, the second and third placed editors and all the runners up will also be acknowledged.

The nominees for this award and the statements given in support of these nominations are provided above. Voting can be done below by adding a hash sign (#) followed by the four tildes (~~~~) to nominee's sections. As the awards process is one of simple approval, opposes are deprecated.

All project members are welcome to vote, but are asked to vote for a maximum of three candidates. The winner will be the editor who receives the most 'support' votes by the time voting closes at 23:59 (GMT) on 30 December 2019.

Good luck to all the nominees! For the coordinators, Gog the Mild (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Sturmvogel 66:

1. Harrias ^talk 16:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. TeriEmbrey (talk) 15:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
4. Parsecboy (talk) 12:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
5. CPA-5 (talk) 22:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• EnigmaMcmxc:

1. AustralianRupert (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Zawed (talk) 21:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

• Harrias:

1. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. AustralianRupert (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Sturmvogel 66 Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:01, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• CPA-5:

1. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. Zawed (talk) 21:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Parsecboy (talk) 12:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
4. Sturmvogel 66 Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:01, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Gog the Mild:

1. Harrias ^talk 16:20, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. AustralianRupert (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Catlemur (talk) 13:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
4. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:11, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
5. Mztourist (talk) 11:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
6. Indy beetle (talk) 04:55, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
7. Zawed (talk) 21:21, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
8. Parsecboy (talk) 12:45, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
9. CPA-5 (talk) 22:29, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Applodion:

1. Indy beetle (talk) 04:55, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

• G.Moore:

1. GELongstreet (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. TeriEmbrey (talk) 15:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

• Djmaschek:

1. GELongstreet (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. TeriEmbrey (talk) 15:47, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:02, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nominations for military history newcomer of the year for 2019 are open!

Military history newcomer of the year 2019

• 
  First place
• 
  Runners up

As we approach the end of the year, it is time for us to nominate the editors who we believe have made a real difference to the project. In addition to the Military historian of the year, all Milhist editors are invited to nominate a promising newcomer that they feel deserves a nod of appreciation for their hard work over the past 12 months for the Military history newcomer of the year award. The award is open to any editor who has become active in military history articles in the last 12 months.

Like the Military Historian of the Year, the nomination process will begin at 00:01 (GMT) on 2 December 2019 and last until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2019. As the awards process is one of simple approval, opposes are deprecated. After that a new thread will be created and a voting period of 14 days will commence during which editors will be able to cast their simple approval vote for up to three of the nominees. At the end of this period, the top editor will be awarded the Gold Wiki; all other nominees will receive the WikiProject Barnstar.

Please nominate editors below this line, including links in the nomination statement to the most significant articles/lists/images editors have worked on since 1 January 2019. Please keep nomination statements short and concise; excluding links to the articles/list/images in question, the ideal nomination statement should be about 20 words. Self nominations are frowned upon. Please do not vote until the nominations have been finalized. Thanks, and good luck! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:38, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Nominations

Editors are asked to keep their nominations to 10 editors or less and nominations should be made in the following format:

• [user name]: [reason] ~~~~
• Gjw9999: account created in July 2018, but largely active since November 2018, Greg has worked quietly to add references and information to mainly Australian topics. He has greatly improved the visual quality of the Unit Colour Patch images that are present on many articles on Australian military units. Examples of his work can be found on Commons here: [1]. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
• Dorromikhal: Created lots of stubs about Roman/Byzantine/Gothic battles and biographies while occasionally going beyond that, e.g. Siege of Ravenna (539–540) or Reinhard von Scheffer-Boyadel. Also expansion and/or improvement of many biographies, notably Belisarius, throughout various periods and nations. ...GELongstreet (talk) 01:12, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Voting

Nominations for this year's "Military History Newcomer of the Year" award have now closed, and it is time to vote for who you think deserves this honour. As with the awards for previous years, all the runners up will also be acknowledged.

The nominees for this award and the statements given in support of these nominations are provided above. Voting can be done by adding a hash sign (#) followed by the four tildes (~~~~) to the nominee's section below. As the awards process is one of simple approval, opposes are deprecated.

All editors are welcome to vote, but are asked to vote for a maximum of three candidates. The winner will be the editor who receives the most 'support' votes by the time voting closes at 23:59 (GMT) on 29 December 2019.

Good luck to all the nominees! For the coordinators, Gog the Mild (talk) 16:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

• Gjw9999:

1. AustralianRupert (talk) 21:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. CPA-5 (talk) 11:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Parsecboy (talk) 12:46, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• Dorromikhal:

1. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
2. GELongstreet (talk) 21:56, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
3. Catlemur (talk) 13:05, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
4. TeriEmbrey (talk) 15:45, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Should biography articles about soldiers list all of their medals?

There is some disagreement I'm having with another editor over whether all the medals someone won should be listed in their article. [2] What is normally done with these sorts of articles? All five of the medals listed have their own Wikipedia articles for them. Richard_Haine#Honours_and_awards Dream Focus 16:52, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

No clearly not the ones that are not really noteworthy, in the example given 1939–1945 Star was issued to thousands of airmen and reflects just being in the right place and not issued on merit. Another medal under question was the Defence Medal (United Kingdom) which was issued to everbody. The Air Crew Europe Star is a campaign medal again turned up and did there bit and got the medal. No need mention these really low level awards. MilborneOne (talk) 21:49, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Having personally been involved in the Suez Medal campaign for a medal to be awarded (1951-1954) - which did not happen until 2003 - I know how important these low level awards are to the people who acquire them. They were proud to have 'been there, done that'. There was many a watery eye when it came their way after over 50 years of waiting. Arbil44 (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

If we have sources, we might as well list them all. I agree that some are common but that does not always reflect the value placed on them by those who received them. The Pacific Star was quite common, but I have read through many files of people who went to great lengths to secure one, evidently regarding it as more valuable than some of their gallantry awards . Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:33, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems quite common to add images of medal ribbon bars. That would be the better idea. The dates of his honours need recording, of course. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

It seems to be from previous discussions and practice that ribbon images although widely used on American articles were seen as being to garish and decoration on British and Commonwealth articles which is why we never agreed a common standard in the past. MilborneOne (talk) 12:00, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Yet many do have them. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:24, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

In the context of wikipedia, it's the importance of the medal to the reader that matters? If it's importatnt to the reader that the medal was important to the recepient, that would also count. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:43, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

This has come up in the past in relation to articles of SS and German Army personal. For example, when one was awarded the Knight's Cross. It was decided to include the highest version awarded. Other minor Nazi Party awards are many times deleted out. Frankly, there has not always been agreement as to what should be kept and what should be deleted. Note - Some of the discussions have been as to what should be included in the info box alone. Kierzek (talk) 14:32, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm finding this discussion very strange. If someone has been awarded a medal, however low grade Wikipedian editors may deem it to be, is it their right to take that medal away from the subject by not including it? Soldiers were awarded no more than the GSM for some very bloody battles. Others were awarded the GSM just for 'being there' - as in the Suez example I gave above. The qualifying period was 30 days, and the chances of close combat in that period of time were probably slim. Arbil44 (talk) 14:44, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

An example, over two million 1914–15 Stars were awarded would you consider that to be noteworthy in an article. MilborneOne (talk) 16:37, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm generally disinclined to have lists of awards (and am even less favorably disposed to ribbon racks) - IMO, awards should be worked into the prose of an article, and significant awards can be included in the box (which I'd limit to the highest grades - we don't need everything down to an ASR cluttering things up. But I might be lonely in that opinion. Parsecboy (talk) 17:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

No it seems a reasonable stance to me. MilborneOne (talk) 17:25, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm no expert on any aspect of any of this - but I do feel passionately for the men who earned their 'gongs' - who feel passionately themselves about them. The consensus here does not appear to be thinking about the individuals. Just my take on it! Arbil44 (talk) 23:21, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

We should also remember the readers, who see an image of someone with rows of medals and wonder what they represent. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:31, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

When someone is considered notable enough for a detailed article about them, I think listing all their awards somewhere in the article is appropriate. RobDuch (talk·contribs) 00:15, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I generally include them in the prose if they can be reliably sourced (I tend to avoid lists these days, but used to do them), and have never had anyone query them except with Nazi bios. The infobox should be kept for only the highest (generally gallantry or distinguished service) awards. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:05, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Medals do represent significant stages or events in someone's life or career, and as such, the article should list them if they can be reliably sourced- even long service medals like the Medal for Long Service and Good Conduct (Military) tell the reader something about the recipient (even if it's just that they've served for a significant period of time and not got any major stains on their disciplinary record.Nigel Ish (talk) 09:22, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I personally don't think it's necessary to include campaign and service medals in the text of an article (I never do when writing military and police bios) and I always oppose lists in biographical articles, but I'm not fundamentally opposed to showing ribbon bars at the bottom of an article (although not accompanied by a separate list, as we sometimes see). They do illustrate an individual's service and, as has been pointed out, clarify what the ribbons mean when someone is seen wearing them. We should, of course, continue to list awards for gallantry and distinguished service (i.e. those that are not awarded automatically) within the text. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:40, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

• All - I agree with all editors who stated that all of medals should be listed if they can be reliable sourced. Reliable sources would not mention them if they do not deserve to be mentioned. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:12, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
• Are there government websites that list what medals everyone got? I see no reason not to list all medals, claiming they are pointless is rather insulting to those who risk their lives serving their nation. Dream Focus 19:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
  • There are not any such websites.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
    • I searched about and just found one. https://valor.militarytimes.com/ If no government websites exist, there are surely ones others have created for soldiers in their nation. I would assume this project would have a list of them somewhere. Dream Focus 02:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

      That lists some citations for some US medals. For Australians, It's an Honour lists all decorations for which there are gazettals. However, it does not list campaign awards and the like. These can be extracted from the service personnel files, which are available if there were involved in World War I or II. The former have all been digitised; the latter will be digitised on request. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

      • Hawkeye, would you be prepared to search that link for my first boyfriend?! Colonel, or Lt. Col Warwick King-Martin. I tried, without success. The only web info is on a dead link here: "Warwick King-Martin - Old Honitonians Forum www.oldhonitonians.com › ... › General Category › General Board 10 Jun 2007 - Dear OH, Warwick died at home in Brisbane on 5th May 2007, after a courageous battle against cancer. Richard Anderson is organising a ..." I am sure Warwick would have died with a medal, or two, or three. He served in the Australian Army. I'd just be interested, that is all. Thank you. Arbil44 (talk) 04:31, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
        • Oh, dear, it is nearly 5am here - too tired to think properly. He did not serve in WWW1 or WWW2, so won't be listed there! Sorry for being off-piste. Arbil44 (talk) 04:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

          Well, I found his immigration files. NAA: A8245, 1979/1192 in Canberra and NAA: J25, 1979/5712 in Brisbane. Unfortunately, they're NYE. Army personnel file is still held by the Army. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:48, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

          For the curious: you can read his obituary here Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:51, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

          Since he was a Brit, we can track his career through the London Gazette: commissioned, promotion to lieutenant, promotion to captain, major, retired And we can do much the same in Australia: eg appointed as a major in the Australian Army. Thus, we have enough material to write an article on him, except that he isn't notable. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

          • Wow, thank you Hawkeye - quite some obituary. Clearly I have good taste in men! I knew him in Seremban (his father was my father's boss). He was my first love and the one who got away! I've put a picture of us on my userpage!Arbil44 (talk) 09:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
• Personally I don't think awards should be listed or mentioned unless they're covered in at least one secondary source. I do not mean to take anything away from the achievement of earning them, but Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. If no secondary sources consider it important enough to mention, it's questionable what the relevance is to the general reader. buidhe 07:47, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
• Just throwing in here that "how important these low level awards are to the people who acquire them" is not germane to our decision to include them or not include them on a Wikipedia article. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:52, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
  • The late Charles Golder would not agree with you! [3] Arbil44 (talk) 09:58, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
• All - I agree with all editors who stated that all of medals should be listed. It is not up to editors to measure the significance of a medal, if the subject would display the medal and the official obituary etc. lists it, it is notableLightburst (talk) 03:20, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Are we saying that campaign medals given out in six figure sums and sometime during the first world war over a million are really of note ? MilborneOne (talk) 08:55, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Is it "of note" to die for your country? General Service Medal Is it down to you to dis-award a medal earned that did, or might have, caused your death? How and when and by whom will this discussion conclude, with a descision made? Who is the final arbiter? Arbil44 (talk) 09:54, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Having a medal doesnt mean you had to die for it. MilborneOne (talk) 10:01, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion either comes to a consensus and somebody suggests some words that go in a guideline or something or we dont agree and do our own thing, the discussion on medal images and which are notable will like always just keep being raised avery couple of months. MilborneOne (talk) 10:01, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

If this gets discussed that often then surely it is time for someone in authority to make a decision? Yesterday I counted 9 in favour of keeping all medals recorded and 5 against. Is that a decison? Arbil44 (talk) 10:20, 24 December 2019 (UTCB

Back in 2002 I was part of the delegation to attend a meeting at the Cabinet Office to make the final petition for the Suez Medal 1951-1954. It was a well run campaign and it was very interesting to see the effect it had on the Cabinet Secretary of the day. The medal was awarded some months later, in 2003, and most of those awarded it only had a year or two of their lives left to enjoy wearing it. Had you been at that meeting too I think you would be agreeing with me. Arbil44 (talk) 10:32, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Arbil, you seem to be confused about what we're doing here. We're writing an encyclopedia. No one is taking away any medals. We're trying to decide what the appropriate level of detail is for a biographical article in an encyclopedia. Go pick up the relevant edition of Britannica and see if they mention the Seringapatam medal anywhere in Arthur Wellesley's biography. I'm willing to go out on a limb and say you won't find it. They didn't take it away, they just decided it wasn't important enough for an encyclopedic level of detail on the subject. That's my (our?) point. Parsecboy (talk) 10:35, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

My tuppence worth: First and foremost, obviously all content needs to be verifiable. Ideally, all medals should be fluidly listed in the prose where appropriate. If a medal doesn't seem significant enough to mention naturally in the prose, then it probably isn't notable enough to be included in the article at all. I'm not keen on the idea of a list at the end of an article, unless it provides sufficient context as to what each medal was awarded for. I am strongly opposed to the sole inclusion of ribbon pictures for each medal, as this is not accessible at all. Harrias ^talk 10:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Of course I understand that but nothing will change my point of view any more than others will theirs! If this is a concensus then yesterday the tilt was in favour of listing all medals! The average serviceman cannot be compared with the Duke of Wellington or Lord Nelson by the way!!Arbil44 (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Put another way, the sign on the door says this is a sandwich shop, but you'd rather make tacos if we have enough votes for tacos, then? Don't dodge the point about the Iron Duke, please; it doesn't matter if he was a private or a field marshal (and you know it). Parsecboy (talk) 12:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I've no wish to argue with you, or anyone else Parsecboy. There are differing opinions here, that is all. I only had this page on my watchlist because I asked a question here. It was deleted! I should have taken this off my watchlist when that happened.Arbil44 (talk) 13:45, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I for one am all for including all awards, and for including them in a list belowe the article. Why? Simple, because they are well suited for them, below the main text is the best place for that and military awards are part of a military biography (if applicable) and information. If the information is known why shouldn´t it be used? We´re not forced to make short biographic entries with a limited format, we can expand. Of course that doesn´t mean infobox, which should only include the top level. The inclusion of ribbons in the lists is, in my opinion, totally optional but I think "ribbons only" is suboptimal. As for the matter being brought up time and time again it usually means another deletionist has a deletionist issue again, or somebody comes with a national POV. In the end, as all editors are free to edit or not, the matter is really simple: You want to include the awards - do so. You write an article and don´t want to - then just don´t. ...GELongstreet (talk) 15:00, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

That a given piece of information exists is not justification that it should be included - we might hypothetically know that Julius Caesar picked his nose - should we include that in his bio? This is the whole reason we're here - our basic job as editors is to determine what material should go into an article and what shouldn't. Otherwise, bots could write articles.

The fundamental question we should ask ourselves in any editorial decision is, "what use is this to readers?" What benefit does including the Mexican Border Service Medal on Omar Bradley's page give readers? That he served on the border? I think the prose tells us that already. There are no doubt specialist sources that track this sort of minutiae, but that's not our job. Parsecboy (talk) 16:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I´d agree on the nose picking, and that existence is not enough justification. The nose picking has no relevance to the notability in Caesars case, and it is not an important personality quirck. It also is no aspect of his career. Military decorations for a military biography are so, and apparently we disagree over thinking them to be important enough to be in an article (I, obviously, do). As for the Bradley example, yes, the main text tells us that he served on that border. It does not tell us that he has that service medal; which is relegated to the list. This is, in my opinion, as it should be because it would be somewhat intruding in text form but perfect in said list. Lists are easy to understand and if somebody is not interested in that locally concentrated aspect it can be skipped, far easier than in text form. There also are countless articles where the reader will find no such information in the main text at all and thus get even more from the list (of course many articles could need expansion). So I see that exactly as "our job". Again: You don´t wont to add them, then don´t, nobody is forcing you to do so. There are others who do. ...GELongstreet (talk) 13:14, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Coming to this discussion a bit late, I see some emotive arguments being presented but these don't take way from the fact that this is an encyclopedia, where we have to strike a balance between being informative and the amount of detail provided. I am in general agreement with Buidhe and Harrias. Medals should be mentioned in prose as appropriate to the subject and cited to a reliable secondary source. For gallantry awards this should be easily achieved (it's probably part of their notability) and in some cases campaign medals as well, depending on the context (eg. often a recipient's gallantry awards are on display at a museum alongside their campaign medals so it should be appropriate to mention them - the campaign medals, that is). Where the subject of a biography article 'only' received campaign medals, of which hundreds of thousands were issued, I suspect that while it may be easy to source that the subject served in, for example, Europe in WWII, it may be difficult to source that they actually received the France and Germany Star. We shouldn't be assuming that they received it based on their service in Europe. Zawed (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

As long as they are verifiable, I have no problem listing all medals. I agree we should not assume any medals are earned based on service, and I also agree that ribbon images is probably too prominent for inclusion in a recipient's article (they are perfectly acceptable in the medal's own article if it exists). CThomas³ (talk) 23:37, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

French Space Force Request for Comment

There is an IP who is insisting that France has an independent space force. I have started a discussion at Talk:Space force#French independence?. It would be great if individuals would add their thoughts to this discussion. Garuda28 (talk) 00:30, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

There appears to be no independent French military space force, as of this moment, or planned. The previous Joint Space Command (France), subordinate to the Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces, has just become the Space Command, a formation within the the French Air Force. Eventually the Air Force will become the Air & Space Force, according to Le Figaro amongst others [4]. Buckshot06 (talk) 03:47, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Article assessment

There are comments at Talk:CSS Shenandoah#Article assessment for anyone interested. Otr500 (talk) 08:42, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Source review requested

G'day all, Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Arthur Sullivan (Australian soldier) (my nom) is good to go less a source review. If someone could take a look, it would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

This has been sorted, thanks Gog! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:08, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Question about User:MilHistBot

@Hawkeye7: or anyone else who can give me some insight, but how exactly does the MilHistBot judge criteria for article rating? It just ran through Herman Lupogo, which I wrote yesterday, and said that the criterion for referencing and citation was not met. I know the bot is not perfect and not meant to replace human assessing, but clearly the article doesn't suffer from a lack of citations, since outside of the lead every standalone paragraph ends with one citation and has several interspersed throughout. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:50, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Er... It's because you called the references section "Citations". The Bot then did not recognise it. I will include a change for this in the next release, which will be in the New Year. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:02, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Luis Fonseca

Would someone from MILHIST mind taking a look at this? There seems to be some weird centering happening mid-way through the article which probably is a syntax error, but I can’t seem to find it. Also, I’m wondering about the personal section since it’s unsourced, but the part about where he wants to retire seems more like it’s written a bit more as if this is a personal profile than a Wikipedia article. — Marchjuly (talk) 09:35, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Any better now? Gog the Mild (talk) 10:36, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look Gog the Mild. You fixed the weird centering and some other editors took care of the unsourced personal life content and some other things; so, things seem to be OK now. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:11, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Rfc notification on Space force

An Rfc has been opened on Talk:Space force#Rfc on title of current Space force article to get feedback on a proposal to change the title and redirect the term space force to United States Space Force. Schazjmd (talk) 15:32, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

NATO involvement in the Yemeni Civil War

Apart from being a bit of pile in and blame everybody article the NATO involvement in the Yemeni Civil War doesnt appear to be anything to do with NATO. Should it be moved ? anybody have any suggestions what to do with it ? MilborneOne (talk) 09:56, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

AFD'd it is basically as mass of OR.Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

AFD is turning into a bit of a mess with the article being renamed in the middle of the discussion. MilborneOne (talk) 11:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

German coastal defences in Belgium during WW1

Hi, I am currently working on a series of articles about British naval activities off the Belgian coast in the First World War. I was intending to link to articles about the German defences they faced but have struggled to find an article about them. Is there a WW1 equivalent to the Atlantic Wall or German coastal battery Tirpitz articles? Judging from the period being missed out of the Coastal artillery article, I suspect we don't have anything yet. However, I wanted to check if anyone was aware of any orphan articles on the subject that I could expand on rather than start from scratch. From Hill To Shore (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

On a related point, I have found an unclear reference on the Coastal artillery article, pointing to a source named "Chung." I was going to ask the editor who inserted it to identify the source, but it appears to have been a sockpuppet account that has since been blocked.[5] Any suggestions on how to handle this one? I'm tempted to just remove the Chung source and flag the last sentence as unreferenced for the moment. From Hill To Shore (talk) 10:51, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Naval Corps (German Empire) is the unit controlling the German units along the Belgian coast. And you can find some information on the deployments in Belgium in the articles on the various guns, especially the railroad versions. I didn't try to create articles on the individual batteries because I found it hard to figure out when they were emplaced and dates of any change in composition. Some of that data may be available in German sources, if you can read them.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 12:58, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

That's great, thanks. I have some sources that provide a basic level of detail of the German guns, so I'll include it there for now. We can always split the article later if there is enough content to justify it. From Hill To Shore (talk) 13:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Ottoman ship Hüma-i Tevfik, ex Baroness Tecco

What date was this ship transferred to the Ottoman Navy? According to Clydeships, it was in 1856. However, the Morning Chronicle of 16 October 1860 reports that Baroness Tecco was damaged by fire at Constantinople on 11 October. She is listed in Lloyd's Register, 1860 as Baroness Tecco. According to the List of non-combat vessels of the Ottoman steam navy, more info might be found at Bernd Langensiepen, Ahmet Güleryüz, The Ottoman Steam Navy, 1828-1923, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, Maryland, 1995, ISBN 1-55750-659-0, p. 172. Mjroots (talk) 07:35, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

This newspaper from 1858 mentions that it is a private vessel of the Pasha of Egypt but the Ottomans have demanded its use for a military operation. The source requires a subscription but you can search a rough extract of the text for free on the page.[6] This second newspaper extract from 1860 mentions again that it is owned by Ibrahim Pasha.[7] Are you sure that it was owned by the Ottoman Navy and not just a private vessel owned by a prominent Ottoman family? Rather than date of transfer to the navy, are you wanting date of transfer to the Ottoman family? From Hill To Shore (talk) 09:18, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

The Ottoman Steam Navy says that she was commissioned July 1856 and by 1870 was a stationary hospital ship in Istanbul. Laid up two years later, she was sold for scrap, 1874.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 13:07, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

@From Hill To Shore: - I'm trying to work out if Clydeships or the Morning Chronicle is in error, and thus get the correct info into the list of shipwrecks in October 1860. Mjroots (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

@Sturmvogel 66: - Istanbul did not exist before 1923. Mjroots (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Only for Europeans; the Turkish name of the city long predates 1923. Parsecboy (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, she was still Baroness Tecco at that time, but under the Ottoman flag. Mjroots (talk) 19:31, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I have another source to add some confusion again. Sturmvogel 66 quotes "The Ottoman Steam Navy" as saying she became a hospital ship and was scrapped in 1874. However, the Yorkshire Herald (6 July, 1874) gives a different story;[8] "Further particulars to those we have recently given respecting the loss of the Kars are furnished by the Levant Herald... The sunken vessel was formerly the property of the late Prince Ilhami Pasha of Egypt, when she was well-known under Captain Newbold's command as the Baroness Tecco, so called in compliment to the wife of the then IHedmonteae Minister to the Porte."

So in this, she was the Baroness Tecco owned by Ilhami Pasha burned in 1860 (shortly before his death) and then sold to the Azizieh Company and renamed "Kars". From Hill To Shore (talk) 22:03, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Last chance to vote for the Military Historian of the Year and Military History Newcomer of the Year awards!

G'day all, if you haven't voted, refer to the threads at the top of this page. Voting closes today. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:23, 30 December 2019 (UTC) for the coords.

Lieutenant-General Charles Elmhirst

Hi all. I created an article on the above, he had a long and distinguished career in the British Army, in addition to very briefly playing first-class cricket for the forerunner of Lancashire County Cricket Club. I've filled out the bare bones of his military career, but can't find much else published online. So leaving him here incase anyone fancies expanding what looks like a noteworthy military career. Cheers. StickyWicket (talk) 10:23, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

• "General Elmhirst served in the Afghan campaign of 1842, at the forcing of the Khyber, Tezeen, and Hoftkuttal Passes, and the capture of Mamokail; also during the siege of Sebastopol and the assault on the Redan." MilborneOne (talk) 10:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)