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The Great Jimmy Dore Spitting Controversy

Put this on Conservapedia with all the other BS where it belongs. Hishighness420 (talk) 11:15, 1 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hishighness420, mind your tongue. This is not the way we talk to each other here on Wikipedia. --Yukterez (talk) 03:04, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yukterez I'll speak however I damn well please. Hishighness420 (talk) 05:38, 2 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hishighness420, we will see about that. --Yukterez (talk)

Alex Jones raided a live filming of a The Young Turks RNC coverage and began arguing with the hosts. He also referred to Ana Kasparine, an agnostic of Armenian Christian heritage, as "little Jihad" (???) I'm not saying that that justifies spitting on another person, but without hearing any outside media discussing this event, Wikipedia can't make the judgement call on its own.

There might be legal action, but I doubt it. Anyway, until there is or any other notable consequences of this incident, it isn't notable. CarolOfTheForest (talk) 01:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi CarolOfTheForest, Breitbart News have covered the incident here. Shall we cover it in the article now? Thank you, New9374 (talk)
Breitbart doesn't have much journalistic integrity. While they do cover some hard news, it is usually with heavy commentary and a very sharp bend to the right. So I don't think a gossipy site like Breitbart is enough to make mention of this. I could be wrong and welcome discussion on this, but my vote is that it isn't notable unless we see an actual controversy develop out of the incident. CarolOfTheForest (talk) 06:08, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Plus its unclear if Jimmy spat on Alex Jones. We only have Alex Jones to go on as the 2 videos on this incident aren't clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.46.46.26 (talk) 06:26, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

it is 200% clear that it was jimmy dore who spit on alex jones, there are many videos showing him walking up and directly spitting on him. I would not be here reading this article if i didn't know who jimmy dore was and what he did 132.160.81.215 (talk) 21:28, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the video and it does seem clear he spat on him. But that alone isn't notable. If Mick Jagger spits on Paul McCartney, then that is notable. CarolOfTheForest (talk) 14:20, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If Mick Jagger spat on Paul McCartney that might be notable in Mick Jagger or Paul McCartney's article. In Jimmy Dore's article it is more relevant who he spat on! --Yukterez (talk) 04:48, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not notable. Not notable at all. Coltsfan (talk) 15:14, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's pretty clear he DID spit on him. See below GIF. I'm happy to start writing this up if there's no objection?

http://makeagif.com/YtjD_5 86.182.68.133 (talk) 14:00, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The issue here is not about who will write it up, it is about finding a reliable source that give the story in an WP:NPOV unbiased way. I have been searching for a couple of days and I can't find a source other than sources tied to one extreme side or the other. Without reliable sources, it doesn't work on wikipedia. Trackinfo (talk) 21:37, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is hollywood reporter story. This incident is BIG, twitter and social media are buzzing through the world. videos alone got over milion views while they get 10 to 100 times less views on both channels TYT and Jones. Here is holywood reporter story http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/fight-erupts-at-gop-convention-913433 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.231.42 (talk) 21:52, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is barely a story. Outside of left wing media spectrum, very few people are paying attention to this. No big source has yet gave any attention to this. It's one incident. The media don't care, and an enciclopedia (like wikipedia) shouldn't also. Coltsfan (talk) 22:17, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Hollywood Reporter story adds a little to what I have already written for the story (none of it posted), which belongs attached to more than a half dozen articles, but it does not identify Dore at all. It also does not cover any of the melee that is really the part that might make this significant to these individuals. Also, both sides have posted their reactions to it, but there is no NPOV coverage of those reactions. There is still a lot of incomplete reporting of this. Trackinfo (talk) 22:25, 24 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I came here to see if the spitting controversy has been added to his youtube page. Being perhaps the most eccentric and bizarre act this person has probably ever committed in his life, I would be very much surprised if this was not mentioned. Akiva.avraham (talk) 10:46, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How is this not notable? I think someone is trying to whitewash this act. If it was not for the incident, I wouldn't hear of this guy - not being an American, like the rest of the world I watch sporadically USA election process and youtube poped this incident so I checked it out. This is what this guy is known for in the world, it is his defining moment. TYT whitewashed the incident form their clip (no spitting, which is in muslim and some other cultures, ultimate insult, to the point of death sometimes), and some guy here is trying to hide it. Despicable — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.231.42 (talk) 19:22, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This incident doesn't need a whole section devoted to it, but it is unquestionably worthy of being mentioned in a sentence or two. Bueller 007 (talk) 20:46, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly, there is a censorship attempt. Spitting incident is both notable (in islamic cultures spitting is comparable to shoe throwing, but spitting is assault even in USA). While both Alex Jones and especially Jimmy Dore are not very notable people, this incident perhaps does not merit a full article (but maybe it does, since it was one of the worst incidents of inter-journalism conflict in RNC in general), but certainly merits a section. Muntadhar_al-Zaidi is in Iraq certainly better journalist than Dore is (or he is comedian??), but his biography certainly contains a incident of shoe throwing of W. Bush. There is also a full article on this "one incident", and Jimmy Dore is known to many people just through this last incident, just like outside Iraq this previously well known Iraq journalist (in the country) is known by shoe throwing incident. Now while TYT and infowars are fringe radio and youtube alternative news popular channels, Roger Stone, major Trump advisor and a bigshot, was present there in the messy incident, and while Trump is still not a president (and might fail to be), this whole thing is not some schoolyard prank, but a major thing. In any case:

  • there are many precedents to such incidents being included in biographies of otherwise marginally notable characters (like shoe throwing incident).
  • someone is trying to censor this article by excluding a major event that contributed to viral effect on youtube, while many viral videos are covered alone.
  • saying that this is just "one incident" is nonsense. So you might say that OJ Simpson murders are "just one incident", but OJ Simpson while he might have been a sports celebrity in USA, in the rest of the world he is known just by his infamous murder trial. Situation with this Jimmy Dore is probably something like that, as he is has now reached minor celebrity status on youtube due to this viral videos of crazy americans cursing and spitting on major political event, underlying many bad things that the rest of the world has to endure from them. Biblescola (talk) 21:44, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The precedents are clear enough, Jimmy Dore spitting and yelling in front of Trump staff and assaulting radiohost Alex Jones is exactly like shoe throwing stuff.

First, you are hiperbolizing a lot. Second, to say "in that article this was accepted" don't fly here. This is just one incident, receving a lot of covarege from left wing media or by Alex Jones' supporters. No, this isn't "viral". One thing is "getting attention" other thing is going viral. If every little thing that calls some attention is to be included in biography articles, my god, where will it stop? This is an encyclopedia (or at least is supposed to be), so let's start taking it seriously. Coltsfan (talk) 02:01, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your partisan attempts to whitewash this affair and dishonest marking of content dispute as "vandalism" are appaling. Someone who admits on their page to be Democratic party tool has obvious bias issues, and your whitewashing this affair only proves that. Same kind of partisanship led to imperial agression of Lybia, Syria, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Nicaragua, Vietnam. Alex Jones is against this imperialist new world order, and obviously a lot of imperialist neocons and clinton liberals are for it, but it takes a special kind of zealot to defend spitting on Alex Jones, or whitewashing like TY Turks attempted when they excluded it from their video. Turks, like American mainstream neocons and liberals, are whitewashing a lot of atrocities especially regarding Kurds, and censoring and deleting stuff (like Hilary and her emails). Wikipedia IS NOT a partisan platform for corrupt DNC (or RNC or any party or state), and since there is no objective reason to remove this incident from the page, keep your POV bias for your local Democratic party meeting. Partisan censorship of this sort has no place on free wikipedia (for all world, not just corrupt USA establishment), just as Scientologists were not able to censor wikipedia, neither will Democratic party (or any party) petty aparatchiks.
"Look, i have nothing productive to add to the discussion, so instead of attacking the argument, i'll attack the user who is making the argumentation". And boy, how i love the smell of straw man in the morning. I couldn't care less about DNC, far left, far right, dems, repubs (i'm actually fed up with all of this).... all i know is that there is something here on wikipedia called "Notability". You should check it out. Reading is still free. Coltsfan (talk) 12:30, 27 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The chapter about the spitting event is captured on video from beginning to the end, reported about in media and it also seems relevant. Since the event is reported about by both sides, The Young Turks and the Alex Jones Channel, it is very well possible to deliver an unbiased source by citing both. The scene in question was also filmed by third parties so I vote to undelete the chapter. --Yukterez (talk) 02:07, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

User:Yukterez, I'm checking if this ia a WP:BLP issue here. If it turns out it isn't, no problem, but we still have todecide if it's notable. Lets wait what they say and be on the safe side. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 03:03, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
O

Coverage by Jones and his close allies or by Dore and his allies is not sufficient to include this incident in this biography. We would need coverage in independent sources and the Hollywood Reporter does not even mention Dore by name. This is not a major incident in this person's life. It is a minor squabble that by now, a couple of weeks later, is forgotten by almost everyone. To include it with the poor quality sources we now have would be to devote undue weight to a relative triviality. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:41, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I largely agree with Cullen and this is why I opposed a mention of the incident on Ana Kasparian. If WP:RS (not Breitbart or Infowars) included a detailed account of Dore and Kasparian's involvement in the altercation then I would be okay with a sentence or two devoted to it. I'm unaware of such a source existing though. These large paragraphs which are being proposed violate WP:DUE and WP:CSECTION.LM2000 (talk) 03:49, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just want to voice my agreement that this incident is not encyclopedic material because it gives undue weight to an event that really isn't notable. A "third party" on youtube is not a reliable source. And neither are the first and second parties on youtube. . MidnightRequestLine (talk) 12:16, 8 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry but I consider this entirely notable. I only become aware of this person as a result of the event in question ... there is video which clearly establishes that Dore did indeed spit in Jones face ... in fact it may be the most internationally notable thing Dore has done to date. Frankly I consider the article on him to be a viable candidate for deletion as he's not very notable ... but if the article remains there is no valid reason to omit the event. The efforts to omit the incident do reflect on WP's credibility to be honest - either delete the entire article (which would make more sense to be honest) or report the facts which have been clearly established.

210.84.13.17 (talk) 12:11, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Current Vandalism

This page has been vandalized. There is no source anywhere to suggest that Dore is a holocaust denier. There is also no source which suggests he "ran away" after spitting on Alex Jones, or that he endorsed Donald Trump. Also it makes no sense that he is "best known for" an event which just happened the other day. I suggest that this page is locked to prevent future vandalism. Edit: The page has been reverted by someone. However, it still seems prudent to lock the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.53.188 (talk) 12:14, 22 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lock the page

This page keeps getting vandalized by dore fanboys/berniebros, I'm sick and tired of having to keep undoing their bad edits.Jaydogg1994 (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy Dore's Academic Credentials

...add them here... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.89.229.157 (talk) 05:22, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Political Commentary

We have seen some intense editing here of late, trying to post analysis and commentary about Dore's expressed political positions. It sure looks like someone is on an agenda to make him look like a crackpot.

I tried to support a couple of these additions with direct quotes that make Dore's position clear. While we still have statements like "Dore did not endorse Hillary Clinton and advocated against voting for her in the presidential election." The supporting quotes by Dore, sourced to his own youtube channel, that explain his position keep getting removed. This is bordering on WP:POV editing and is clearly a WP:BLP violation.

One accusation in edit notes was that these quotes were selective, eliminating additional commentary about Bernie Sanders. True, those comments about Sanders were part of the longer quote. Dore can bring in multiple subjects into his bursts of opinion, that is his style, particularly when he is on a panel with other commentators and he gets his moment. I chose the parts that directly addressed his opinion about Clinton since that was the subject of the wikipedia statement the quotes were supporting.

Some of the other accusatory statements in this section also should be addressed in a proper fashion. I question their neutrality, particularly when his own opinions are filtered out in favor of other people's opinions about him. When you want to talk about Dore's expressed public opinion, quote Dore. If we can't present this in a neutral form then it all should be removed. Trackinfo (talk) 19:16, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't a BLP violation. If you really think it is then complain st WP:BLPN, otherwise just drop it. Of course personal comments should not be in the article. I don't understand the POV comment, but then I don't understand you'd BLP accusation. Doug Weller talk 19:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Trackinfo, I don't see how your edits were helpful if you felt someone was on an agenda to make him look like a crackpot. For instance, this quote:
"Given her record of bloodlust warhawkism, there is good reason to be more afraid of Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump."
You're saying the purpose of that quote was to prevent people from thinking he's a crackpot? If anything, the quote makes his position look even more extreme.
Also, they "keep getting removed" for good reason. Firstly, you added a quote without a source. One of your later edits sourced to The Duran (a questionable source).
"I question their neutrality, particularly when his own opinions are filtered out in favor of other people's opinions about him." I do not understand this criticism. This is Wikipedia. The subjects of articles do not dictate how their pages are written.
Ultimately, someone could just as easily accuse you of trying to prevent Dore from being viewed as a crackpot. "Neutrality" does not mean that anything that could potentially reflect badly on Dore must be removed. CowHouse (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking the same thing about the quotes possibly making him look like a crackpot. Anyway, we seem to agree on this. Doug Weller talk 05:29, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The initial posting of the quote, I screwed up in my copy paste of the quote. The usual WP sourcing system with audio bites is to find someplace where the quote is transcribed. When searching for an appropriate quote of Dore's opinion on Clinton, these two quotes were the most often cited elsewhere. You didn't like the source (out of a dozen) I pulled it from. Your value judgement of whether they make him seem more or less like a crackpot aside, they make HIS opinion clear. Usually that would be enough. Here, with people like you making it a controversy, I ultimately found he had transcribed the line associated to the video with him making the quote. Sourcing cannot be clearer. If you are going to insist on paragraphs criticizing Dore for things he has said, then present what he has said. As the subject of the critique, his side cannot go un-presented. Trackinfo (talk) 18:24, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you think your quotes were "appropriate"? If you want to present Dore's side of the argument, do you really want to use a quote where he is fear-mongering about Clinton's supposed "bloodlust warhawkism"? I very much doubt that would be the quote Dore would choose. I agree with Doug Weller that the quotes were cherry-picked, and in my opinion they made him look worse.
Besides, I removed the part about Dore not endorsing Clinton. There is no need to present another side to an argument that is no longer being presented.
I also don't know what you meant by this or whether you were referring to me: "Here, with people like you making it a controversy..." Either way, it sounds like you're not assuming good faith. CowHouse (talk) 03:46, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I dont know how any of this works or the proper Wikipedia protocols yet, but wanted to say that Jimmy did not push the Seth Rich conspiracy, in fact he said he was waiting for evidence and even admonished the mainstream news for not waiting for facts before pushing the Russia hacked election conspiracy theory. And the Washington post did not say he pushed anything, the direct quote from the washington post was "chewed over" allegations. That is a very very very very far cry from "pushing" a conspiracy. You are obviously posting that to defame.

All these entries are made to make Dore look like a crackpot and should be taken down. I'm Polysci1977 and don't know how this works, but am going to find out very fast. thanks for your help. 38.70.17.91 (talk) 07:20, 8 September 2017 (UTC)Polysci1977[reply]

Firstly, Wikipedia does not allow original research.
The quotes from the Salon article are in the video they have cited:
How are these quotes not promoting the conspiracy theory? The "chewed over" quote is already on the page so I don't know why you're mentioning it.
None of this is defamatory. If something is true, it cannot be defamation. Please stop using that term. As I said earlier, just because something reflects badly on Dore does not mean it should be removed. How do you think Donald Trump supporters feel about some of the statements on his Wikipedia page? Should such statements also be removed for being "defamatory"? CowHouse (talk) 07:37, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its not promoting a conspiracy theory because he literally din't promote it, he literally said he was waiting for EVIDENCE in the One report he did on it, and the 2nd report he did he debunked the story THE NEXT DAY. So whomever is posting that he is pushing a conspiracy theory is doing that to defame Dore because it is OBVIOUSLY not true. Also, whomever is posting this material as of late is obviously trying to present snippets of facts and quotes to make Dore seem like a crackpot and defame him. This should be taken down and stopped. Polysci1977 (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is quite clear that you're a fan of Dore. It seems unlikely that anything I say will persuade you but please hear me out. Did you watch the video linked in the Salon article?
In Wikipedia, we go by what the sources say. However, even if we didn't, you're still not correct. Even if Dore said he was waiting for evidence, that does not prove he wasn't pushing the conspiracy theory. If I said I was waiting for evidence that 9/11 was an inside job but there is probably something to that story, would I be promoting a conspiracy theory or not?
You also need to explain why he said "there's a lot of red flags" and "there probably is something more to this story" if he supposedly debunked it. That's quite a contradiction. CowHouse (talk) 15:52, 8 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dore does a daily news show, covering a story and asking critical questions is considered covering a story, not pushing a story. Dore covered the breaking news story as it happened and did not "promote" anything" He covered it as a news story while stating "We like evidence, we are gonna wait for evidence". He also said "there are a lot of red flags" meaning there were a lot of inconsistencies in the official story, which is still an ongoing investigation.

To try and claim that he pushed this as a conspiracy is directly contradicted by the actual facts and it is only being twisted here to make Dore seem like a crackpot and to discredit Dore. This is pretty obvious at this point. Polysci1977 (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've already explained why waiting for evidence is not a defence. "There were a lot of inconsistencies in the official story" - no there aren't. Considering you are using the term "official story", it appears he has succeeded in causing you to question the Seth Rich case. He spoke directly to the conspiracy theorists and said "I don't want to discount it like 'oh, you're crazy if you think there's something more to this story.' There probably is something more to this story." Dore did the exact opposite of debunking the story. The entire video linked in the Salon article shows Dore promoting claims from conspiracy theorists to justify that "there probably is something more to this story" (Podesta email about "making an example of a suspected leaker", Julian Assange retweeted the story and hinted about Rich being a whistleblower in an interview). CowHouse (talk) 03:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why was all of this eventually removed, am I missing something? It looks like there was a bit of an edit war in the revision history, and it doesn't look to me like there was a consensus about removing it here. Ofus (talk) 02:57, 17 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Much like Sean Hannity, Dore was "Just Asking Questions" aka "JAQing off". You might also know it as the "Cavuto Mark". "Is Obama a Muslim?" "Did the Jews do 9/11?" "Did Clinton have Rich killed?" It's a favorite technique of propagandists who want to be able to gaslight you that they didn't actually say what they said while promoting it. Dore, along with his colleague Jordan Chariton, promoted the Seth Rich conspiracy theory. That's a fact. 76.26.133.139 (talk) 04:42, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Who's Tommy Christopher?

The article says, "In April 2016, Tommy Christopher of The Daily Banter accused Dore of calling Hillary Clinton a "fascist", and further criticised Dore for theorising that a Donald Trump victory would benefit progressives." When we cite an unknown person, we should say who they are. In this case, Christopher is a major supporter of Hillary Clinton writing during the primaries. As he further wrote, "In an encouraging sign, Cenk smacked down that Bernie or Bust bullshit by pointing out what a disaster Trump would be."[2] Otherwise we are misleading readers into thinking he is fairly expressing a mainstream majority view.

As it happens, Christopher's statement is false. Cenk called Trump a fascist. Dore asked Cenk what he meant by fascist and he said it was when government and business worked together. Dore said by that definition Clinton was a fascist too. Note that the claim that Trump (or Clinton) are fascists is fringe. We mislead readers into thinking that Dore supports the theory. In fact the party that holds the presidency almost always loses seats in mid-term elections.

The second part of the sentence is misleading too since it does not explain how Trump's election would benefit progressives, implying that Dore saw Trump as progressive. Dore said that a Trump presidency would lead to Democrats re-gaing Congress in 2018 and the presidency in 2020, ehivh is within the realm of possibility.

I recommend we remove the text. We could mention that Clinton supporters have attacked Dore, if we can find reliable secondary sources that mention it.

TFD (talk) 12:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why you think it's relevant if Christopher was a major supporter of Clinton. How does this change the validity of his criticism? (See Ad hominem)
It was also not false. Dore asked Uygur to define fascism as a pretext for Dore to suggest that Clinton was also a fascist, as he then did ("so our choice is a fascist, or a fascist and a racist?"). You can tell where Dore is going because Uygur responds with "here we go" after Dore's initial question, before Uygur even defined fascism. Your version of events suggests Dore genuinely needed fascism to be defined for him which is highly unlikely.
"We mislead readers into thinking that Dore supports the theory." What theory?
The second part of the sentence is taken directly from the source. The following sentence about fracturing the GOP clarifies what Dore meant.
Additionally, since you brought it up, the Democrats re-gaining Congress in 2018 is mathematically far from realistic. Either way, it's not a particularly relevant discussion to have here.
Edited to add:
You seem to be suggesting that Christopher "attacked Dore" because Christopher is a Clinton supporter and therefore he was not expressing a "mainstream majority view". However, you also acknowledge that the claim that Clinton is a fascist is a fringe view, so logically the mainstream view would be that it is fair to criticise someone for calling her a fascist. Additionally, your suggestion that Christopher was motivated by his support of Clinton is unsubstantiated. CowHouse (talk) 16:18, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a transcipt.[3]

Dore: You say we have to vote for Hillary because we might get a fascist.
Cenk: Yes.
Dore: The definition of fascism is what?
Cenk: There we go. People say it's when business and...
Dore: ...government...
Cenk: ...merges.
Dore: So this is a fascist versus a fascist and a racist.

Cenk's definition of fascism is false. Fascism is, according to Merriam Webster, "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition." Nothing about business and government merging. Dore of course is correct to ask what Cenk's definition was and also correct that Clinton (and most other politicians) could arguably fit his definition. The allegation that Dore called Clinton a fascist is false.

The political positions of people commenting on political campaigns is entirely relevant. People who support candidates are more likely to speak favorably of their candidates and negatively of their detractors. I do not believe that you are not aware of that.

I posted the issue to RSN. We can test your theory that whether or not someone supported Clinton will have absolutely nothing to do with how they respond.

TFD (talk) 17:13, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How have you reached the conclusion that Dore did not call her a fascist? The transcript clearly shows he does: "so this is a fascist [Clinton] versus a fascist and a racist [Trump]."
Why do you think Dore said this: "You say we have to vote for Hillary because we might get a fascist. The definition of fascism is what?" Dore did not know at that point whether or not Uygur would correctly define fascism. What is clear is that his question was a pretext for his follow up point; that he thinks Clinton is a fascist. You have no evidence that Dore's point was to show that Uygur's definition was flawed. You're twisting the quotes to fit your interpretation. Dore did not ask "your definition of fascism is what?", he asked "the definition of fascism is what?". Dore also then says "and you're afraid that he [Trump] might start wars, like, I don't know, the Iraq War?" Surely you can see what Dore is doing.
Also, how do you explain Uygur's "here we go" comment? He can tell where Dore is going because it is quite obvious.
You have not established that Christopher's political positions are relevant in this case. By your flawed reasoning, you can dismiss his criticism of anyone except fellow Clinton supporters since he is automatically biased against everyone else.
"[W]hether or not someone supported Clinton will have absolutely nothing to do with how they respond." For someone who so generously interprets Dore's comments, you completely straw-manned my comment. I said: "your suggestion that Christopher was motivated by his support of Clinton is unsubstantiated." I am not saying it has "absolutely nothing to do with how they respond". I'm saying you have to prove this, and you have not done so. CowHouse (talk) 17:31, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear that Dore is taking Cenk's premises (Trump is a fascist, fascism merges government and business) to say that one should not vote for Clinton either. That does not necessarily mean he accepts these premises. Note I just mentioned these two premises also, so following your reasoning you could accuse me of calling Trump a fascist and agreeing with Cenk's definition of fascism. Taking someone's words out of context in order to falsely attribute statements to them. See for example "You didn't build that:" "Fact-checking organizations reported that Obama's remarks were distorted out of context in order to criticize the president." Polemicists typically do that when they have no valid arguments for their side.
I assume you are aware of all this so it is pointless to continue the discussion with you.
TFD (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There are several parts of the clip that you conveniently ignore in order for your interpretation to make sense. Uygur says "people say", he doesn't say it's his definition. Uygur later says "even if that were the case," indicating that he does not agree with Dore. Uygur did not accept Dore's views, not vice versa. Dore then asks about the Iraq War and supporting Israel. At the end of the clip, Dore says "what is it that Donald Trump is gonna do different than Hillary Rodham Clinton has already done?"
Given the full context of the clip, it is clear that Dore's questions were rhetorical and his point was that Clinton is as bad as Trump, and any criticism of Trump also applies to her (including accusations of fascism).
Surely there would be some indication that Dore doesn't agree with his own statement if you were correct. He could have specifically said "according to that definition", "most other politicians would fit that definition", or simply any indication that he disagreed with it at all. His statements in context are clear, they have not been taken out of context.
I will repeat myself because you keep ignoring this part. If you were to watch the clip, and pause it after Uygur says "here we go", tell me honestly what you think Uygur meant by that. Remember that this is before Uygur has defined fascism. CowHouse (talk) 02:38, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't deserve a response. TFD (talk) 04:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is inline attribution indicating it is an opinion. It is an opinion that you may disagree with but that is irrelevant. If it was presented as a statement of fact then you might have a shred of an argument. Also, don't bother responding if you're just going to say "that doesn't deserve a response". It is entirely unproductive.
Dore has also made similar comments about Clinton elsewhere which further supports the argument that he has called her a fascist: [4][5][6][7]. CowHouse (talk) 06:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Based on your comments, it appears you want the article to say something and are willing to ignore the actual TYT footage or any arguments based on policy. As editors for example, we are not supposed to read through twitter postings and interpret our findings but instead use reliable secondary sources that do that. The issue is not whether Dore called her a fascist, or 911 was an inside job, or Obama wasn`t born in the U.S., but what reliable secondary sources conclude. TFD (talk) 15:08, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you are the one who is ignoring the footage, unless Christopher, myself, people who aren't Clinton supporters [8][9][10] and others [11][12][13] are all wrong in our interpretation. Maybe you should consider the possibility that you're wrong about this.
In response to this: "it appears you want the article to say something and are willing to ignore the actual TYT footage or any arguments based on policy", I don't need ulterior motives to disagree with your misinterpretation. If you're going to insist that "I want the article to say something", I could just as easily say the same back to you, considering how persistent you are in being an apologist for Dore's comments.
I only found the tweets because you were in denial about Dore's comments. They justify my interpretation of the clip. Otherwise, you'd have to argue that he has called her a fascist at other times, but for some reason you don't think he did this time (despite your transcript showing he referred to her as a fascist).
You are the one disputing a reliable secondary source, not me. The source says: "For example, you have folks worried about the #BernieOrBust crowd letting Donald Trump win, like TYT’s Jimmy Dore, who was still calling Hillary Clinton a “fascist” Thursday night, and theorizing that a Trump victory would benefit progressives". You keep arguing about what a reliable secondary source concluded despite all evidence suggesting it is an accurate interpretation of Dore's comments. CowHouse (talk) 15:50, 10 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a reliable secondary source, per "News organizations". TFD (talk) 23:19, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate Sentence

The following sentence: After it was revealed that the source of the theory was a fraud, Dore continued to insist that there were “a lot of red flags” and there “is probably something more to this story”.[11] This is a blatant falsehood meant to make Dore look like a crackpot. In fact, the exact opposite is the case, Dore was insistent people wait for evidence, and followed up on the story in an appropriate manner where Dore himself debunked the source of the story as a fraud om May 18 <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKawchvHsEg<ref>

The source material for that statement is an article that was published on May 22. Prior to May 22 Dore's News Show appropriately covered the breaking Seth Rich story, Dore made clear that he was expressing skepticism to the claims that Seth Rich may be the Wikileaks connection while also covering inconsistencies of the official story. Dore even posted a pinned comment under his video imploring people to skip to the 18:18 mark in the video where Dore clearly states that He is waiting for evidence before drawing conclusions and even admonishes the establishment press for not being more skeptical of stories without evidence: <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKawchvHsEg<ref>

On May 18,two days before the Washington post article that said Dore "Chewed Over" the Seth Rich Story, Dore published the following video where Dore Debunks the source for the Story Rod Wheeler : <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8s4DJmVAc4<ref> 

Jimmy acknowledges this discredits Rod Wheeler "You got to name a guy, or else this is just nothing" 1:35

Also on May 18, the show published the following video: <ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQFZOz_TYF8<ref> Jimmy criticized the media's knee-jerk rise to conclusions. Jimmy also acknowledged that more and more information was coming to the surface as quickly as the show was trying to cover it. It is clear that this person posting this has an personal issue with Dore and is trying to discredit him in the most unfair way.

22:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)Polysci1977 (talk)Polysci1977

You have not shown why the sourced sentence is a "blatant falsehood". Dore's quotes are accurate and were made after the source of the story was exposed as a fraud. Dore only admitted that Wheeler was not credible, but at no point did he debunk the claim that Seth Rich was connected to WikiLeaks. The quotes in the article demonstrate that Dore did promote that conspiracy theory. The video in question is also the most recent of his concerning Seth Rich.
Your insistence that he was waiting for evidence is completely irrelevant. Obama birthers were just "waiting for evidence" when they demanded to see his long-form birth certificate and they too questioned the "official story". They're still conspiracy theorists. CowHouse (talk) 03:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The source is unreliable. It is an opinion piece by Amanda Marcotte, an extremely controversial writer who attracted attention for her false claims in the Duke lacrosse case. Even worse, the paragraph begins with weasel words, "Dore was accused of promoting the unsubstantiated conspiracy theory that Seth Rich was connected to the DNC email leak of 2016." You're copying the m.o. of Fox talk show hosts. "Some say Obama was not born in the U.S." That way they avoid telling us who has made the claim or how credible they are. TFD (talk) 03:46, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, it was changed to "was accused of promoting" from "promoted" in the hopes of preventing further vandalism. If that is a problem, it can be changed back since the accusation is clearly true. Both Salon and Washington Post have articles listing Dore among those who promoted the conspiracy theories.
"You're copying..." Why are you making this personal? You should know better. If you're going to personally blame me for the weasel words, you would have seen my edit summary explaining why I did it.
The quotes in the Salon article are verifiable and accurate. The Duke lacrosse case is different since she was not making factual statements, they were clearly her opinion. It is not an opinion to accurately quote what Dore said concerning Seth Rich. CowHouse (talk) 04:47, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:NEWSORG. Opinion pieces are not reliable for facts, particularly in a biography of a living person. As for the Washington Post article, all it says is, "Briefly, before Wheeler recanted his story, the Young Turks network's “Jimmy Dore Show” chewed over the revelation that Rich was in contact with WikiLeaks." It doesn't even mention Dore personally or that the show promoted the Wikileaks conspiracy theory. Nor can we read a transcript of the show and interpret it. While this all might seem legalistic, the problem you face is that you have drawn conclusions but lack sufficient reliable sources to support the text you want included. TFD (talk) 10:27, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He already showed you reliable sources, He has drawn no conclusions the evidence supports what he's saying, The problem is that you refuse to look at any information that challenges your bias toward the subject.Jaydogg1994 (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit unclear as to why more neutral (and more accurate) edits are being reverted, as the paragraphs appear to contain several violations of WP:BLP policy.

  1. Neutral PoV: The current text of the paragraph certainly reads like an attack piece. Use of the words "promoted" and "continued to insist" are statements of opinion, either by the editor or taken from the opinion pieces cited (more on that below). Also, ameliorating information is soft-pedaled, as in the use of "After it was revealed that the source of the theory was a fraud", instead of a more accurate description of the indirectly-cited video, where Dore was actually reporting on the fraud story, not "promoting" the conspiracy theory.
  2. Sources: Both citations are of opinion pieces by people who've been directly attacked by Dore on his show. Amanda Marcotte has blocked Dore on Twitter, and Dore has attacked the WaPo and Weigel on numerous occasions. Weigel also blocked Dore, but later removed the block. Citing opinion pieces in support of factual claims - especially those written by authors with a clear antipathy toward the subject - seems like a pretty obvious violation of policy. It also seems particularly egregious to pull characterizations ("continued to insist") from those pieces (Marcotte's "kept insisting") and pass them off as neutral language.
  3. Notability: The Alex Jones incident gained national and international coverage, yet wasn't deemed noteworthy enough to appear on this page. If Alex Jones doesn't make the cut, why do these two videos (out of literally thousands on Dore's Youtube account) get a mention? They were much less notorious than the fight with Jones. If it's just about Dore saying controversial things, you can see that in just about any video he posts. He's viciously unloaded on Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris and others. At one point he called Cory Booker "human puke". What makes these particular videos special? Both are poor representations of Dore's work, but, coincidentally, both can be used to undermine Dore's credibility as a political commentator, as evidenced in both cited opinion pieces.

Dore is a particularly prolific and caustic comedian. He often vehemently attacks prominent politicians and media figures using provocative language. Do we really want to encourage people to quote-mine 1000s of videos for examples that fit their opinion of him? Whether those feelings are positive or negative, it seems like a terrible way to fill out this page. Gnocchi (talk) 23:07, 15 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gnocchi is absolutely correct, this has serious WP:NPOV issues. I suggest the entire section be dropped until consensus can be reached on each element that goes into it. If we do use external criticism of Dore, I do think we should provide appropriate quotes from Dore to coherently express HIS position, rather than simply be subject to other people's impressions of what he said. First of all we need to recognize that his approach to everything starts from being a comedian--a jag off nightclub comedian as he puts it. Dore has a clear, well informed political position and does present himself as a political commentator, but he is also prone to bursts of hyperbole to over emphasize his points and try to make a joke out of it. On TYT, he is limited to his burst of time to speak. He self-deprecates his position in life in the perspective of; if a jag off nightclub comedian can figure this stuff out, why can't the geniuses who do politics professionally figure it out? And frequently he goes on to explain that they don't want to come to the same (logical) conclusions and he explains the corrupt reasons why they don't (usually that they have a financial interest to reach the opposite pre-determined conclusion). If you take snippets, you do not get the whole perspective of what he is saying. If we cannot present his position fairly, with an NPOV, then this content does not belong on WP at all. Trackinfo (talk) 20:57, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He isn't joking when he says stuff like "all cops are criminals", :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QvwgAmALm4&t=8m12s "Hillary is a fascist", :https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x45t68d and "Building 7 was demolished by somebody." He is serious (and often wrong) when it comes to political stuff, This is just like when fans of Alex Jones try to defend him by saying that he's a "performance artist". Jaydogg1994 (talk) 05:21, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody cares what you think, Wikipedia requires reliable secondary sources which you have failed to provide. I notice that you restored a poorly sourced false description of his views without explanation[14] and ask that you observe WP:BLP and other content policies and guidelines. TFD (talk) 10:28, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Nobody cares what you think" is a insult to me, Please read WP:AGF and refrain from personal attacks. It isn't a BLP violation, The Washington Post is a reliable source of information and so are the other articles. Jaydogg1994 (talk) 18:10, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The quotes in the articles and in the videos are verifiable and accurate. Jaydogg1994 (talk) 18:22, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The issue I raised was not accuracy. I grant that Dore has said some inflammatory things, over the top relative even to the point he was trying to make in that statement. He's a comedian, exaggeration is a tool of his job. But as NPOV, Jaydogg1994's edits seem to be selective, cherry-picked to show the most negative stuff you can find about Dore, certainly not a neutral presentation of his work as a whole or even making an effort at capturing the essence of his statements. Trackinfo (talk) 18:43, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to help add context to it with removing my edits that would be good. Jaydogg1994 (talk) 18:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Are you suggesting an edit war? I already added quotes to this article and saw them removed. Jaydogg1994 has been admonished and had his content removed by other editors, only to have him replace it several times with slight modifications but treading very close to WP:3RR. Trackinfo (talk) 18:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind. Jaydogg1994 (talk) 18:52, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Did you perhaps make a mis-statement, perhaps an over-escalation or exaggeration to prove a point? It happens sometimes. Trackinfo (talk) 20:57, 18 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The current version is MUCH better - should paint an accurate picture of Jimmy no matter what your politics are. Thanks, Trackinfo. Gnocchi (talk) 04:22, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please respect the site.

Not helpful. Comments should be about the article, not demeaning statements about other editors. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Whining and complaining that the article misquoted your favorite comedian (it didn't, there's numerous sources and his own words to show that he did promote and believe the Seth Rich conspiracy theory) and removing sourced information isn't going to do you any good nor is it going to do anything except make you look like a crackpot and a bad editor, Please treat this site and your fellow editors with respect, The reason the article is locked is because you guys can't seem to face the fact that your idol has said and supported a lot of views and theories that most rational people (like myself) consider to be false, crazy and sometimes deplorable. Jaydogg1994 (talk) 05:02, 13 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 October 2017

"change

Dore argued that a Trump presidency would be beneficial to progressives because it would fracture the GOP.[8] He has also said that emails published by WikiLeaks indicated that ...

to

Dore argued that a Trump presidency would be beneficial to progressives because it would fracture the GOP.[8] Nearly a year since Trump's election (as at October 5, 2017) there is recognition across the political spectrum of divisions between congressional Republicans and the Trump administration and their consequent failure to pass key legislation.[8a] He has also said that emails published by WikiLeaks indicated that ...


References

[8a] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/us/politics/left-right-republican-party-trump-tillerson.html"Olb123 (talk) 05:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC) Olb123 (talk) 05:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: Edit could not be done because the source you gave failed to support the edit requested. SparklingPessimist Scream at me! 19:51, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Religion

Regarding the categories, where are the sources that say (a) he was a Catholic; (b) he is an atheist; and (c) he is also (sic) an agnostic? Please note that being "born into a Catholic family" does not make one a Catholic at any point, at least not in the Wikipedia sense. Please also note WP:BLPCAT - whatever position we ascribe for him, the source has to demonstrate self-identification of religious belief. - Sitush (talk) 12:29, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You can be both an atheist and agnostic at the same time. AHC300 (talk) 11:53, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Incident at the RNC

I recently created a new section regarding the incident at the Republican Nation Convention where Dore spat in Alex Jones' face. Whilst I realise these sources are not the most trusted, they contain videos clearly showing that the said incident occurred. This is not libellous and the event clearly happened, backed up by multiple sources and mulitiple camera angles, clearly showing that Dore spat at Jones. 141.241.26.20 (talk) 13:18, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article used to be pretty critical of him and showed all of the terrible stuff he's said and done, so some trolls/Dore fanboys found it and trashed it. Subsequently, they’ve prevented anyone from fixing it and adding any information critical of him to it, And because trolls/his fans tend to be very stubborn and insane, It has become nearly impossible to make the article netural. Jaydogg1994 (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:UNDUE. If this is significant enough for the encyclopaedia it will have been covered by multiple reliable sources. Verifiably isn’t enough for inclusion. I don’t care about Dore. Doug Weller talk 06:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is covered by multiple reliable sources, including Breitbart and Russia Today, which complements the video evidence. KU2018 (talk) 14:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC) This was an assault (technically) on Dore. I am aware that the majority of people will praise Dore for his act, but that does not change the fact that the incident occurs. Perhaps more reliable sources did not cover it to try and prevent this notable fact sticking on the article. By the way the IP 121 number above is me, I have just created my account. KU2018 (talk) 14:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure Breitbart and Russia Today qualify as reliable sources by Wikipedia standards? MPS1992 (talk) 19:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Of course not, and doubly not for a BLP. (I mean, RT could be for some things, I guess.) --JBL (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Struck sock edits here also. Doug Weller talk 15:32, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Should this page contain information regarding the incident with Alex Jones? KU2018 (talk) 12:46, 15 January 2018 (UTC) [reply]

Yes. Covered in multiple reliable sources with video evidence. The unusual nature of this event between two major organisations, InfoWars and The Young Turks also incidates the information should stay. KU2018 (talk) 12:46, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted Edits Restored?

A bit surprised to see edits that were deleted after extensive discussion suddenly re-appear. As with our discussions in September, 2017, we are once again left with a page containing several violations of the WP:BLP, including Neutral PoV (especially Undue Weight) and Notability.

Specifically, I'm referring to the re-inclusion of quotes from Dave Weigel's and Tommy Christopher's attack pieces, minor policy articles that happen to mention Dore, and quote-mining of his videos that seem intended to paint Dore in the worst possible light.

Also added is a reference to a CNN smear piece that Jimmy took great exception to going so far as threatening to sue CNN on his premium channel (reference behind a pay wall). Other progressive journalists called out CNN and the piece has since been taken down.

Since these edits have already been discussed and determined to violate policy, I'm going to remove the offending (re)additions so we can get back to a neutral representation of Dore's work. My hope is that further edits to this page will better conform to the WP:BLP. Gnocchi (talk) 04:01, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jimmy Dore as conspiracy theorist and historical revisionist

There are many references to this, but in this wiki these aspects seem to be edited and surpressed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.209.136.245 (talk) 07:10, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's because his psychotic fanboys are always watching this article, Removing almost anything that paints him in a negative light, Saying you can't use his videos as a source when he says something crazy, Gnocchi doxxed me on Rationalwiki and was banned there, Most of the fanboys on here are banned from Rationalwiki due to constant vandalism. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 03:29, 8 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please provide specifics and references to this pointed POV claim, " conspiracy theorist and historical revisionist."Dogru144 (talk) 00:52, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced rubbish + whitewashing of RS content

This article has a huge problem: it's full of content that is unsourced, primary sourced and sourced to non-RS. Another problem is that the text in this article does not adhere to the few reliable sources that are actually cited in the article.

I made an edit which (1) removed the poorly sourced rubbish and (2) added text that actually adhered to what RS say. This was promptly reverted by an editor without explanation. My edit should be restored immediately. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:20, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but your addition to the lede of "a far-left show known for promoting conspiracy theories" is a wildly undue WP:BLP violation which justified the rollback.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 21:22, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's a RS description of the show. And if that was the sole problem, you could have removed that one thing, not restored a gazillion poorly sourced sentences and removed a bunch of RS content. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:28, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I started a discussion on the fringe theory noticeboard.[15] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:31, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There was no RS following this statement in the lede, and given it is a BLP constituted a violation in my estimation, turning the lede of the article into a hatchet job against the individual the article is about. My mistake rolling back the whole article and not just removing this part from the lede.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is sourced in the body. Furthermore, RS in the body note that he's promoted conspiracy theories about Syria and Seth Rich. The shows has also pushed other delusional conspiracy theories, such as running segments about how Hillary Clinton has Parkinson's[16][17] (but this has not been covered by RS so it's not directly relevant). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:15, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Noted. Although the issue remains that the article is still heavily skewed against its subject, and given it is a BLP could be problematic. Keeping what I objected to in the lede would have made the article even worse in that regard. WP:CHERRY seems to be an issue with these recent edits, and this apparently has been a problem for a few years now, as evidenced by User:Trackinfo's post above at 18:43, 18 September 2017.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is zero cherry-picking. If that user has RS up his sleeve, he can show them to us. And to call Jimmy Dore's segments about Syria, Seth Rich and Hillary having Parkinson's "comedy" is stretching it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:50, 18 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problems continue. As evidenced in the most recent sequence of edits, I quoted Dore's reaction, that it was in CNN's commercial interest to call him a "conspiracy theorist." I sourced both the quote and the coverage of the quote by medium and TYT, only to see it immediately removed, first by Snooganssnoogans and then by another user. There is a serious WP:BLP violating WP:AGENDA going on here deliberately to Dore's detriment. Trackinfo (talk) 23:30, 19 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Perhaps since it is nearly impossible to add any rebuttal to the CNN article without triggering an edit conflict (the TYT coverage seemed reasonable to me, but I digress), perhaps the disputed content should be appropriately tagged to show readers it is disputed?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The notion that CNN has some kind of "commercial interest" in smearing "The Jimmy Dore Show" (or accurately describing this show as the far-left conspiracy show that it is) is absurd. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:40, 20 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So the all knowing Snooganssnoogans has made his pronouncement and the world cannot hear of this story ever again. I didn't understand that was how wikipedia works. Trackinfo (talk) 02:10, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever CNN's motives may or may not be, Mr Dore is an RS for his own opinions.Slatersteven (talk) 07:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
On a point of accuracy, when citing articles that have named authors, we should cite the authors, in this case "Paul P. Murphy, Kaya Yurieff and Gianluca Mezzofiore writing in CNN Business accused the Jimmy Dore Channel of a being a far-left YouTube channel...."
In similar cases, where groups and individuals are accused of being far right, we generally use an authoritative source such as peer-reviewed literature or university textbooks. According to the Routledge Companion to Fascism and the Far Right, p. 5, the left-right specturm "places the most militant anarchists and Communists on the far left; socialists and democratic conservatives occupy the mainstream left and right respectively; while the centre is held by 'moderate' social democrats, liberals and Christian Democrats....[The far right] view, that the ends justify the means, even if the means include extra-legal violence, terror and dictatorship, often echo those of the far left."[18] That's an extraordinary claim to make against the Jimmy Dore channel and requires better soruces. TFD (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good point. I suggest that if the allegations from the CNN article are to remain, then the rebuttal from Dore/TYT should also be restored. As the article exists now it is largely a hatchet job. It isn't even mentioned that Dore has had on his show individuals such as Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who is now one of the most famous (or infamous depending on perspective) politicians in the country. The article gives the impression he's a raging leftist extremist who does nothing but float dangerous conspiracy theories, a notion which Cenk rebutted forcefully in the TYT clip of his rebuttal of the CNN article (6:20 min in), noting how Dore has promoted Medicare for All, a $15 minimum wage and other popular progressive policies. This is also absent from the article. I think a neutrality template might be in order as well.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 18:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
[[Slatersteven} That is the most illogical thing i've ever heard, By that logic if he claims to be the pope then it must be true. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 00:10, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dore responded with a segment explaining how the CNN "report" was geared at "getting advertising off their competitor's platform. Dore responding, claiming, saying . . . is Dore's opinion. If he had said he was the Pope, we would express it the same way, as it being his opinion. Another ludicrous argument that appears too frequent on this talk page.Trackinfo (talk) 05:34, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: "a far-left show known for promoting conspiracy theories"

By raw count of !votes there were 10 opposes and 5 supports with 1 conditional support should there be a "plethora of sources" (plethora means "a large or excessive amount" which the closer thinks is probably at least five or six). This count excludes one editor who has been blocked for "abuse of editing privileges". Oppose !votes invoked WP:LEDE to contend that only the most salient information should be included in the lead, and this was not among the most salient. This was semi-convincingly, but not entirely, rebutted by assertion from the support !votes who stated that, indeed, the popular description or characterization of someone's occupation or worldview was highly salient and, therefore, appropriate for the lead. Some oppose !voters invoked an analysis of chemical weapons attacks in Syria to counter the claims that the outlet was a conspiracist; this argument was largely discounted by the closer as original analysis and not a policy-based argument. Similarly, some oppose !voters mused on the current state of the Overton Window to contend the show was not "far-left" which was equally unconvincing since it was OR and not policy-based argument. Some oppose !voters said they would not object to this characterization being contained in the body of the article, but not the lead. Some support !voters said that, while they supported this for inclusion in the lead generally, they were opposed to this wording specifically. At this time, it's my sense that there is not a consensus to add the following description in the lead of the article: "a far-left show known for promoting conspiracy theories". To a question that was not asked, however, there seems to be a consensus for inclusion of the substance of this content in the body of the article, though in what form and place the editors will have to decide. Chetsford (talk) 18:00, 31 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Should the lede describe 'The Jimmy Dore Show' as a "a far-left show known for promoting conspiracy theories"? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:20, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  • Support - CNN[19] says it's "a far-left YouTube channel that peddles conspiracy theories, such as the idea that Syrian chemical weapons attacks are hoaxes". The Washington Post[20][21] has covered his promotion of Seth Rich conspiracy theories. He has run segments[22][23] about how Hillary Clinton has Parkinson's. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Just because one crappy and obviously biased CNN article says this does not make it notable for the lede of this WP:BLP. Any such inclusion of something so inflammatory would constitute a BLP violation by my estimation and should be immediately removed or at the very least followed by a strong rebuttal from other sources.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 19:27, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@C.J. Griffin:Okay, I'll bite; what makes it a "crappy and biased article" from CNN? I'm dyin' to hear this (yeah, I am challenging your assertion, if I was at all unclear). - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:59, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's a crappy and biased article because only at the tail end of the article do the authors, in one sentence mind you (some analysis), and based on no sourcing whatsoever, attempt to lump Dore in with far-right fanatics, promoters of racial hatred and other nefarious characters. The assertion that Dore is a far-left extremist is wrong, as User:TFD discusses below. It's a smear, and a really bad one. A far more accurate and fair analysis, albeit brief as well, comes from a piece of scholarship on fake news. And as the TYT clip on the subject point out (6 min in), Jimmy Dore spends a good portion of his air time promoting medicare for all, a $15 minimum wage and an end to endless wars, along with other progressive ideas and policies. Funny how that was omitted from this one-sentence hit job on Dore.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:14, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Partial oppose. I wouldn't go as far as C.J. Griffin does, at least without seeing the contradicting sources first. However I don't see enough to merit including "conspiracy theories" in the lead section. The "far-left" label belongs in the lead to describe Dore's Youtube channel, per the source. Unless there are contradicting sources. R2 (bleep) 21:53, 8 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. He has a history of promoting and supporting conspiracy nonsense, Such as idea that Syrian chemical weapons attacks are hoaxes"[24] and Seth Rich conspiracy theories[25][26][27]. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 00:36, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The United Nations did not assess blame for the Douma attack. But you can assess with absolute certainty that Dore is "promoting and supporting conspiracy" for being skeptical?Trackinfo (talk) 05:55, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure but perhaps there should be. It may be worth mentioning in biographies that Dore, or others, have supported conspiracies in the past, but putting these things in the lede should only be reserved for people who are best known for pushing such material. I'm not convinced Dore fits in that same box, which Jones or David Icke inhabit. I tend to avoid Sean Hannity; he's a partisan commentator who pushed for the Iraq War, among other issues, for years. That's not mentioned in his lede but his comments on the Seth Rich conspiracy are. Inclusion of this material in ledes puts Icke, Jones, Hannity and potentially Dore in the same box and that's a disservice to readers.LM2000 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment and probably Leaning opposed As a semi-regular viewer of his channel; He may or not belong on that camp, along I thinking him as a Left-wing YouTuber/Comedian with lesser known supposedly 'Conspiracy theorist'-like views. But as the others said is needed more sources to referencing him as such. Besides the so-called "Left-wing" Pro-Democrat CNN reference? Chad The Goatman (talk) 01:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose alternatively he can be called sceptic in my opinion, what is proposed looks like BLP violation.Sourcerery (talk) 12:00, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This user has been blocked per Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1012#Disruptive_editing. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 17:41, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The subject's devotion to a conspiracy theory makes him a conspiracy theorist. He isn't known for much else outside of the Tinfoil Hate Brigade. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You make a poor non-point trying to defend the lack of proper arguments for why the "known for promoting conspiracy theories" smear should be added to the lede. Jimmy Dore has been active for moree than 10 years, has more 3300 video on his youtube channel and a small number of them are a bit conntroversial. Nobody says The New York York Times is known for promoting conspiracy theories just because they had a few articles in the past supporting the Iraq has Weapons of Mass Destruction conspiracy theory. --ColumbiaXY (talk) 21:08, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And yet, that 10 years of activity and 3300 videos garnered him not a lick of attention. The moment he started playing up the deep state nonsense, he became popular with the MAGA- and tinfoil- hat brigade. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 23:51, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We should always keep this in mind when trying to keep these articles neutral. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:36, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • NoteHe himself admits he is a conspiracy theorist, despite the negative connotations of such. Elsewhere he defines a conspiracy theorist as "start(ing) at a conclusion and then...find(ing) the facts to back it up"; he later states his belief that "assume gov is lying and work back from there"[28]. He can be more than one thing, but there isn't a shadow of a doubt that one of those things is a conspiracy theorist. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:27, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
He is clearly saying that in jest and making the point that if you question official narratives in any way, even on something like the Gulf of Tonkin or the justification for the Iraq war, you could be branded as such. And as one of the other hosts points out, "conspiracy theorist" is too broad a term with unbelievable negative connotations, and one which could include someone who believes corporate money has corrupted US politics to those who believe all our government officials are space aliens. The former is certainly something any reasonable observer of current events could conclude. What you seek to do is use the label to smear him as something akin to the latter, as some nut who believes in crazy shit like aliens hijacked our government. This is exactly why calling him a conspiracy theorist in the lede, and especially without the context I just elaborated on, is WP:UNDUE for this WP:BLP.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:00, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"He is clearly saying that in jest" You know that's your opinion, right? We write articles to give an overview of a subject; it isn't exhaustive, as you well know. Keeping that in mind, if people want to ascertain to what degree he is a conspiracy theorist, they can follow the references or the links. For the time being, we have others calling him a conspiracy theorist, and he admits as such, so we say that. This is not and should not be a proxy fight over the dep state conspiracy theory's value. That argument belongs elsewhere. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:02, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support for including a mention of conspiracy theories in the lead. Searching a few major news sites, this does seem to make up about half of his mentions and dedicated coverage, and as it's quite a short article it's fair enough to summarise points like that in the lead. However, Oppose the specific phrasing for now out. I'd favour something like "He has been criticised for promoting conspiracy theories around ...". (For the record, whatever its other faults, we do consider CNN a generally reliable source.) ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 17:26, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion (RfC)

The opinion expressed in the CNN source should be attributed to the authors rather than to CNN itself and is a passing reference which competent editors would not normally use as a source. The term "far left" is itself misleading. I assume they mean progressive while the normal usage is for revolutionary groups like the Weather Underground or the Red Brigade.

There's a better description of the show in Critical Media Literacy and Fake News in Post-Truth America, Brill Academic Publishers (2018), eds. Christian Z. Goering, Paul L. Thomas, p. 63: 'Fighting "Fake News" in an Age of Digital Disorientation.'[29] "Dore has a [progressive] point of view, but he also promotes the free and open exchange of ideas, as well as tackling the Deep State, US imperialism, war, class warfare, and national politics in a way that is refreshing and stimulating."

TFD (talk) 01:28, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This should be added to the article. Good find, TFD.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 12:24, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not a good source, It's a self published book by a fringe source that fails WP:RS and WP:OR. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 20:50, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? The book was published by Brill Academic Publishers in 2018, meaning it's an academic source, not a self-published one. Ergo, it qualifies as WP:RS.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 23:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. OR refers to analysis or synthesis by editors. TFD (talk) 14:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I went ahead and added the passage you quoted above, per WP:DUE.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 20:44, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And I've removed it. Its kinda what discussion is all about. Adding it wa a bold move; as per WP:BRD, now we can discuss its inclusion. We don't include fringe rantings to counterbalance reasoned criticism. I mean, the author uses the term 'deep state' as if it were a real thing and not the conservative wacko conspiracy theory it actually is. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's an academic source, not something from the blogosphere, and IMO WP:DUE material. It served to balance a WP:BLP article that is increasingly biased against its subject. I think a neutrality template is in order until this gets revolved. EDIT: Even liberal journalist Bill Moyers has discussed the concept of the 'deep state' on PBS, so you can't use that as a justification to purge reliably sourced, academic materials.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, it is your opinion that is of concern. You've suggested that "there is a lot (of) objections on (sic) CNN articles across the board". Its CNN. It's a legitimate, outstanding source; the only folk objecting to it tend to be Flat Earthers and folk who vote for rapey, reality show hosts. So, its really hard to give your opinions weight, CJ. The source of the BLP has been labeled as a conspiracy theorist by several reliable sources. So that is what he is. If someone wraps themselves in a blanket of manure and a legitimate source notes the stink, we note the stink and list the source. It is not biased to do so. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:20, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That the article is biased against its subject is the opinion of more than a few here by my estimation. The issue at this moment is not so much the CNN article, but the removal of reliable sources which present a more neutral picture of the subject (which was the basis for adding the template), rather than the one sentence opinion of three CNN writers in one article. You have no grounds for its removal, especially given your justification, that the concept of the deep state is discussed, is also elaborated upon across the political spectrum, including by respected journalists like Bill Moyers (noted above). And your continued political attacks, which are completely baseless given you know nothing of my politics (this is laughably obvious), I find quite annoying.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:31, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, let's try this again, CJ:
Fact: the 'deep state' is considered a conspiracy theory by almost every legitimate source. Unless proven otherwise (which a good conspiracy theory cannot), it remains a conspiracy theory and therefore subject to WP:FRINGE treatment.
Fact: the subject of the article makes his bread and butter arguing about the existence of aforementioned conspiracy theory.
Fact: the source that was removed is a book - curiously enough - also discussing the aforementioned conspiracy theory and has nothing but glowing praise for Dore.
Observation: the determination with which the legitimization of Dore's theories are being jack-hammered into the article suggest that the neutrality tag you added (plus your comments) was indeed necessary, though not for the reasons you thought.
Conclusion: We don't add sources to "balance out" the fringe nature of a BIO subject.
Additional conclusion: this is not a proxy fight over the legitimacy of the deep state conspiracy theory. That dog won't hunt, as they say.
Final conclusion: If the BIO subject wants to defend a conspiracy theory, we let him. We don't protect him from it, as it is not neutral to do so. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:47, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What's notable here is that you completely ignore the fact that the concept is discussed in mainstream media and by respected journalists (noted above), and instead insert your own opinions on it without any sourcing whatsoever. The book you removed was an academic source, which you also fail to mention, making it a WP:RS, whether you personally agree with its content or not. But I'm not so much interested in this 'deep state' concept, just that you use it as a reason to delete sourced materials, which I believe is groundless for the reasons stated previously.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
CJ, its discussed yes, in much the same vein as Santa Claus or Obama's Kenyan Birth; they are all fantasies, concocted by people who want a Big Bad to blame for their problems. It is a topic of discussion in media because of its myth status, like the JFK Assassination or Alien Autopsies. I am kinda done arguing this topic with you. Let's let other people talk about it now. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:02, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And again, your assertions are not backed up by the sources, or the facts. If you clicked on the PBS link I provided, you'd see that the discourse is NOT in the same context as discussing Santi Claus, or Obams's Kenyn birth or conspiracy theories - not even CLOSE. It's actually the subject of serious discussion. Based on your postulations this far, I'd say you have not justified removal of academic material, and I'm considering reverting, but will let others weigh in before doing so.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 21:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, that's just what I said. How about you stop the whole PEBKAC situation, and let others weigh in, greatfine. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:57, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, there is lot objections on CNN articles across the board. Think WP:DEPS should be considered.Sourcerery (talk) 12:17, 15 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, @Sourcery:, did you just suggest that CNN falls under the deprecated source banner? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:53, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Past discussions on the reliable sources noticeboard consider both CNN (RSP entry) and The Washington Post (RSP entry) generally reliable for news. The specific CNN Business and Post articles listed in this RfC are also reliable, although reputable academic sources are usually considered higher-quality than news sources. If asked in a noticeboard RfC, there would almost certainly be consensus against deprecating CNN as a source. — Newslinger talk 07:44, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jack Sebastian, speaking of flat earthers, that's exactly what you are when you declare that academic sources are unreliable because you know the world is flat whatever the pointy-headed intellectuals say. While the term deep state can be used by conspiracy theorists, it is used in reliable sources. See for example the book, The Deep State, Greenhaven Press (2018). Also called the administrative state, It is merely the permanent civil service that continues through various administrations.
And while CNN is a reliable source for news, I prefer to get my analysis of issues in social scientists from academic sources written by people who have degrees in the subjects and teach at reputable institutions of higher learning. The same applies to natural sciences. I wouldn't re-write articles on articles on climate science or cancer cures or drinking celery juice because of something a CNN reporter said.
TFD (talk) 03:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate you addressing my comment directly, TFD, but I think you misinterpreted my comment. CNN is a reliable source because they utilize the same sources that you claim to; unlike places like Faux News or InfoWars, they tend to write stories based upon the "Who, Wht, When, Were, why and how" mantra of journalism. You will note the distinct absence of 'feelz' in that, since how a subject feels is immaterial to journalism. Is CNN perfectly neutral? No; no one is perfectly neutral. But in a new, post Trump reality, what passes for news is often a frighteningly fluid concept. CNN, I believe is trying to pull harder on the rope of those in the tug-of-war between those who aim for the more unsupportable points of view; if that makes them seem a little more leftist, I can live with that.
Now, with that out of the way, let's take a gander at the source you thoughtfully provided: a book about the Deep State, entitled The Deep State. Do you think that, perhaps, the editor might have an invested interest in legitimizing their book, seeing as its called "The Deep State"? Might an editor of a book about the Aquatic ape hypothesis have a similar investment to their book being taken seriously (as being taken seriously directly translates into sales of the book)?
Add to that the fact that the book you listed isn't on Amazon (which means is isn't even for sale yet and not available for the sort of scrutiny and reference that a secondary source could provide), which suggests that you - as an editor - are arguing that the book is a legitimate source confirming the deep state as an actual "Thing" (something we are specifically explicitly prohibited from doing). This is something that not even the publisher opines:
"This fascinating and informative volume presents a variety of perspectives that helps readers to decide whether a deep state is something to fear or simply a conspiracy theory."1
As well, your argument that "Also called the administrative state, It is merely the permanent civil service that continues through various administrations"2 is an editorial falsehood. They are not interchangeable things, as an administrative state is indistinguishable from a bureaucracy (as per Dwight Waldo's book, The Administrative State, considered the standard text for students of Public Administration since its publication in 1948). Administrative state refers to a bureaucracy, a real thing. A deep state refers toa conspiracy theory, not a real thing. People talk about Santa and the Easter bunny all the time. Talking about a thing does not not make it a real thing. It does not legitimize that thing. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think TFD makes some great points here, in particular that an academic source which specializes in the subject is far superior to the CNN article, which has just one throwaway sentence on the subject of this BLP. Looking over that one-sentence again, I would say that the writers certainly are not utilizing the same sources if that is all they came up with. I doubt very much they looked into Dore and his show much at all quite frankly. If they had, their analysis (if you could even call it that) would have been a bit different, instead of a one-sentence hatchet job comparing Dore's program to those of Nazis and others on the far right. This whole discussion of the use of "deep State" is irrelevant, as the term has different meanings to different folks depending on where they fall on the political spectrum. The discussion of the term on Bill Moyers program linked above, is very different from those who throw it around in alt-right circles. This is actually explained in another piece from Bill Moyers Website. It should be fairly obvious that a serious piece of scholarship would not be using the term in the same way the alt-right uses it. I believe the passage should be restored.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, your voiced opinion regarding CNN as "fake news" is well-known. I know my post was a little bit long, but focusing on what I wrote might have saved you a little time. CNN uses the same sources that TFD notes, as well as others; that's why they are CNN and not Faux News or some other, conservative example of yellow journalism. What you believe or doubt are immaterial, buddy; they are the source, and your opinion - quite bluntly - is not.
Please don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining, CJ. This entire section has been a proxy fight to legitimize the deep state as a "Thing" and not the conspiracy theory that it is (your own edit proves my point). This is Dore's stock and trade; it is what made him famous, so yeah - we're going to mention it as part of his bio, and sourced content that calls it what it is. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You don't know that CNN uses this source. This is pure speculation on your part and you know it, because they don't cite any sources in that piece whatsoever. And the idea that this is some "proxy fight" to legitimize this "deep state" is largely a figment of your imagination, because you are the one fixated on this concept. You are the one who justified purging academic sources simply because it contained the term. It wasn't even a subject of discussion here till you brought it up. Oh, and I never said CNN was "fake news", not once did I utter those words. You really do presume too much. EDIT: I never even bothered to look up the article Deep State in the United States (and honestly didn't even know it existed) until the discussion here, and felt that the analysis from liberal journalists associated with Moyers & Company might be helpful to readers to show that the term has been used long before Trump and the alt-right co-opted it.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 16:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I cannot focus on what you are saying because you are still peeing on my leg and noting how it looks like it might rain. Go argue your innocence elsewhere, buddy - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:01, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the response above, I suggest you click here: Wikipedia:Assume the assumption of good faith.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:06, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the suggestion, CJ, but AGF is not a suicide pact, especially when you have shown that your words and actions illustrate two different points of view. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:15, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There you go again with the snide insinuations like you know my views on politics, ideology or anything else when you clearly do not. It is laughable but please stop it. This is not a forum so the personal views of editors should not be the topic of discussion here anyway. The purpose of the talk page is to resolve disputes, not level personal attacks against other editors you disagree with regarding article content. You are clearly not winning anyone over here in terms of your deletion of reliably-sourced materials.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 18:31, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry that you feel personally attacked, CJ. Perhaps if you stated less obviously-conflicting statements, I would not feel obliged to point them out. I am and have always been addressing content: Dore has been cited as a conspiracy theorist. He himself admits he is a conspiracy theorist. Why are you seemingly trying to whitewash the article? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jack Sebastian:, these are frivolous objections. No one would complain that a book with United States in its title was unreliable because obviously the editors held a position on whether or not the United States actually existed. While I have never heard of the Amazon rule, in fact the book is available on Amazon, in paperback![30]

The first contributor, John Light, is cited in discussion about the deep state in Media, Ideology and Hegemony (Brill Publishers (2018)). Brill is an academic publisher and the series editor is David Fasenfest, and there is an editorial board of 12 academics.
Pseudo-scientific theories such as the aquatic ape theory don't get published in peer-reviewed sources. You are providing a false equivalency between what is appears in academic sources and what appears in the non-academic popular press. The reliable sources guideline holds that facts written in academic sources are reliable, while books defending the aquatic ape theory are not.
For your source, we must consider "Context matters: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible." So instead of google seaching "Jimmy Dore"+[random negative word], try googling "Jimmy Dore" at google books and select books that are reliable sources and see if they make more than passing mention of him, then add that information to the article. And don't worry if what they say is good or bad. We are not here to evaluate subjects but to ensure articles "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." TFD (talk) 18:33, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is so odd that you were able to find the book, when my search within Amazon failed to turn up similar results. I wonder why.
I think your presumption was that I only did a cursory search of "Jimmy Dore + [random negative word]" (that you considered the term negative is quite telling in itself, btw) is pretty off; yes, Jimmy Dore is mentioned in Google books, and no, not always as a conspiracy theorist. Could we use more of that? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean that his well-earned and public views about a 'deep state' (a conspiracy theory) are to be avoided or ignored? Not a chance. We do evaluate our references to make sure they aren't fringe views or offer undue weight to an article. Noting that a conspiracy theorist is a conspiracy theorist is not undue weight, nor is it a fringe theory that Dore is such. We have sourcing that note that despite whatever else - he is a conspiracy theorist. That doesn't mean we make it the most important part of the article, but we note it, like we note that Mancow Muller is a shock jock or that Alex Jones is a conspiracy theorist (note that "conspiracy theorist" is cited no less than six times; such is the movement to purge the term from any article).
In short, we can point out that Dore is also known for other things, but he is famous for his political conspiracy theories. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You are drawing a false conclusion that because there are conspiracy theories about the deep state, that the deep state itself is a conspiracy theory. There are conspiracy theories about the CIA, CFR, etc., but that does not mean none of those organizations actually exist. There are indeed career civil servants who continue regardless of the administration. Now can you please provide a reliable source that says Dore is known for political conspiracy theories. It seems to me you may be confusing stuff you disagree with as a conspiracy theory. Like the fact that Joe Biden supported the 1998 crime bill, or Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater Republican, or Trump did not conspire with Russia.
What pray tell is telling about my considering the term "conspiracy theory" or "far left" to be negative terms? Are those terms you would be happy for people to use in your description? What exactly does far left mean in this instance other than a pejorative?
Your approach reminds how things are proved on Fox News Channel: "I am right, you are wrong, he is a conspiracy theorist."
TFD (talk) 21:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Like I originally said, this had very little to do with Dore, and muchly to do with trying to legitimize a conspiracy theory. There is likely a fuqton of sources that note the modern American interpretation of the super-secret deep state is a conspiracy theory. You might want to consider taking this little tete a tete on over the the deep state article instead. We have sources that say Dore is a conspiracy theorist. We have Dore himself saying he is a conspiracy theorist. Ergo, the fellow is a conspiracy theorist. It isn't like he's saying he's a fire truck. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:40, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, the fact that there are conspiracy theories about U.S. intelligence agencies such as the CIA does not mean there are no U.S. intelligence agencies. I have presented a reliable source written by experts and cited by other experts, and you have responded that you reject those sources because they don't follow your opinions based on your original research. But let's agree to disagree because it it not that vital to the discussion.
One guideline that you are blatantly ignoring is Context matters: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable." Instead of looking for the best sources and reflecting what they say, you are looking for sources that support your personal views. You're welcome to go elsewhere and write articles about why you hate Jimmy Dore or why you think the CIA doesn't exist, but that's not how this article should be written. TFD (talk) 21:37, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, I have cited numerous examples where Dore has presented information or espoused beliefs that are considered by almost every other legitimate source to be conspiracy theories. We are not here to discuss the validity of those conspiracy theories, and any argument attempting to do so will get pimp-slapped for the distraction that it is. We are here, instead, to evaluate whether Dore's endorsement of these ideas makes him - among other things - a conspiracy theorist. I posit here (as before) that he is.
Prove to me that he is not, and this discussion turns from the fringe-y arguing as to whether 'deep state' or 'chemtrails' are legitimate to whether Dore should be called a conspiracy theorist because of his stated belief in these things. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 14:06, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

Okay, let's address a couple of your points. First of all, yes, there are conspiracy theories about the CIA, NSA, and Nabisco. The difference that you seem to be trying desperately to overlook is that while the aforementioned are all real entities (ie. places you can go and see), the deep state is not. It doesn't exist, but you desperately want it to. I get it, as much as I get how much you think it is a real thing. But it is not. Books and pundits (the legitimate ones, not the Tinfoil Hate Brigade) who talk about it compare it to a boogeyman that might come if we aren't careful.
This is not what Dore does. He argues that it does in fact exist, despite every reasonable source saying it does not. It is a conspiracy theory. He admits to being a conspiracy theorist. Ergo, Dore - while he might be other things, is a conspiracy theorist. He does not make money based on the fact that he is a comedian. He is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page because of his fame as a conspiracy theorist.
So, I am not "blatantly ignoring" context, TFD. I am saying that we have sources - reliably sources - that state that the subject (one by his own words) is a conspiracy theorist. 'ANY argument about the validity of his conspiracy theory is fucking moot. I totally get that you see this as a proxy fight for validation of that theory, but it is not, and its the primary reason you are running into a wall with me. Repeatedly. Its an argument that will go precisely nowhere with me. The place to argue that shit is somewhere else. End of story.
The sole issue at hand is whether we call Jimmy Dore a conspiracy theorist - ie. someone who theorizes that a specific theory is genuine. There is zero doubt that this is what he does. We have two sources that say he does, and his own words admitting such provide the context of one of those sources. You have provided zero sources that say Jimmy Dore is not a conspiracy theorist. You and others have instead thrown buckets of sources that argue the existence of a deep state.
It's a Leprechaun-shaped peg that won't fit in a reality-sized hole. This article will not serve as a proxy fight over the existence of the deep state. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 22:18, 7 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The sole issue at hand in this particular discussion is your deletion of a reliable source because it mentions "deep state", which is obviously some kind of trigger for you. It's just thrown in as one of the topics tackled on Dore's show, along with US imperialism, class warfare and war. You could just as easily say "This article will not serve as a proxy fight over the existence of US imperialism". The problem here is your fixation with the use of deep state in the source. Debate over the existence of the deep state is not even the point of the passage. The point made is that Dore promotes a free change of ideas on a range of controversial topics that he has a strong point of view on. This is clearly WP:DUE material for this BLP. You seem to be the only one here arguing against the inclusion of this material. TFD, although he has not stated it explicitly, appears to be in favor of its inclusion, at least as far as I can tell. I'll give it a few more days to allow others to opine on the issue before I restore it.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 17:42, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you wish to initiate a new survey, feel absolutely free to do so, CJ; I'd urge you to avoid trying to manhandle the article to your preferred version. You wouldn't like the end-result of that.
As for your attempt to reframe the discussion, you are - again - wrong. I am saying that, as Jimmy Dore is a conspiracy theorist, we note that. He speaks of the deep state as a real thing which, of course, it is not. Now before you start yelling about all the sources who talk about the deep state, note that lots of sources talk about Santa Claus. Not really sure what you are spending your time arguing the validity of the deep state argument. It has zilch to do with this article, apart from Dore's belief in it. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 20:33, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jimmy Dore is a conspiracy theorist. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:33, 8 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The source is "Exclusive: YouTube ran ads from hundreds of brands on extremist channels" in CNN Business. Its last sentence is "Ads also appeared on The Jimmy Dore Show channel, a far-left YouTube channel that peddles conspiracy theories, such as the idea that Syrian chemical weapons attacks are hoaxes."
Context matters clearly applies: "Information provided in passing by an otherwise reliable source that is not related to the principal topics of the publication may not be reliable; editors should cite sources focused on the topic at hand where possible." The principle topic is not Jimmy Dore, who is mentioned in passing, but Youtube advertising.
Jimmy Dore is not an extremist or far left as those terms are normally understood. There are no calls for violent revolution or to remodel the U.S. along the lines of North Korea.
I don't know why you continue to argue about the deep state. See for example "The Deep State Is Real But it might not be what you think" by Michael Crowley, currently White House correspondent for the New York Times. Or perhaps you think the New York Times hires conspiracy theorists.
TFD (talk) 18:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, thanks for the response sanity, TFD; its appreciated.
Last bit first, whether the "deep state" exists is immaterial, except that the American version of it is widely considered a conspiracy theory. I could toss in at least a dozen different RS citations that qualify it as such. Therefore, that the "deep state" is considered to be a conspiracy theory is indisputable.
Because it is considered a conspiracy theory, those who use it as a deus ex machina or key to explain something is themselves a conspiracy theorist. Note that this is very different than discussing the existence of a "deep state." Jimmy Dore talks about the "deep state" a lot, much more than the three videos that someone else (maybe yourself) opined. He gets followers and revenue dollars from talking about these topics. As such, this makes him a conspiracy theorist, though he plays down the descriptor because of its negative connotations. The "deep state" isn't his only conspiracy theory; he also pushes the murder of Seth Rich1, various 9/11 theories2, Assad's gassing of his citizens3 and even the JFK Assassination4. The sheer amount of back and forth in this discussion by others should suggest that, for them, Dore is less important than legitimizing the "deep state," and take offense at its classification as a conspiracy theory. That was what I referred to as the 'proxy fight' in the article discussion.
So, Dore makes a living as a conspiracy theorist. That is largely indisputable, as well. Conspiracy theorists aren't necessarily partisan. They don't always call for revolution or remodeling of the "U.S. along the lines of North Korea" (no idea where that came from). Most conspiracy theories only point out a problem, not how to solve the problem. They focus on recognition of the problem, not solutions to the problem. Ergo, your definition of what defines a conspiracy theorist is deeply, deeply flawed.
You make a point that 'context matters,' and I absolutely agree. However, this is not Youtube advertising, this is Dore's own, recorded words - over and over again - presumably being used by CNN to evaluate Dore as a conspiracy theorist. CNN didn't pull the evaluation out of thin air; it came from Dore's own words.
I hope that addresses your points, TFD. Please feel free to note any argument of yours that I overlooked. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 19:58, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just stepping in for a moment: "So, Dore makes a living as a conspiracy theorist. Are you out of your mind? Do you ever see the content Dore produces. Several hours a week. And you pick on a couple of minor subjects he has mentioned mostly in the distant past and use that as a basis for a blanket statement. Last time I paid attention to this argument, we were discussing the possible inclusion of the phrase, which I think is out of line. Now you have perverted your argument to the point of making it the crux of his existence. Go back and read WP:BLP. We don't do this kind of character assassination on wikipedia. Go somewhere else. Trackinfo (talk) 08:22, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, 'go back to where you came from' is your ta-ta?
First of all, these aren't "minor subjects he mentioned in the distant past." He rails on about his many, many conspiracy theories - not on the "distant past" but less than four months ago:
From RT America {1):
"Brigida Santos: Israel's alleged crimes against Palestinian civilians are being exposed here and yet it’s still taboo for people like Ilhan Omar to call out Israel in America. Why is that?
"Dore: Why is it? It’s because same reason why you can’t mention why Phil Donahue was fired from MSNBC on MSNBC. The reason is because the Israeli lobby controls our Congress and our politicians. Just look what happened to Ilhan Omar recently. All she did was just mention it and instead of us talking about the control that the AIPAC lobby has on our politics in the United States we ended up talking about her and whether she was anti-Semitic for pointing out that lobbying groups use money to control politicians, which is a fact. Which is a fact that the Wall Street Journal agrees with. Which is a fact that AIPAC brags about. So why is that? It’s because they own our politicians and if you mention that fact you’re called anti-Semitic in the United States because if you want to know who rules over you just find out who you’re not allowed to criticise."
He's known because he stirs up shit; its that attention that pays his bills; lets call it what it is. Is a conspiracy theorist all he is? No. He is famlus because he speaks so stirringly of the conspiracy theories he espouses. Furthermore, there are plenty of references from RS that consider him a conspiracy theorist. Because the litmus for inclusion is verifiability, we can verify that he is considered a conspiracy theorist. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 09:02, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

It is one persons opinion that this is a pro Assad lobby group, and to imply this is a fact is a BLP violation.Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The way it is written is highly POV and further skews the article against its subject. I think a neutrality tag might be in order.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 13:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're right. WP:UNDUE POV-pushing and WP:BLP smear. -- Tobby72 (talk) 14:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From an article about Denis Kucinich ;

'Kucinich, currently running for Ohio governor, has revealed that he received $20,000 from “a group sympathetic to the Syrian government,” Cleveland.com reported Tuesday. New ethics filings show that the Association for Investment in Popular Action Committees, a group tied to the pro-Assad Syria Solidarity Movement, paid Kucinich for 2017 speeches.' Its not 'one persons opinion'. When the OPCW JIM has said the attack on Khan Shaykun was regime action, its a bit tortured to say the article is 'skew'ed against this man Jimmy Dore. If expert analysis is against him the wikipedia article should show that I should think. Wikipedia is not under an obligation I take it to assert the evenness of the opinion of this bought hack , and the OPCW JIM, on CW attacks 78.147.47.103 (talk) 14:27, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

None of those sources say it is a "a pro-Assad lobbying group", as our article does. Nor do any of those sources imply Dore was paid to give a pro Assad message. It is a serious accusation that needs more then one Journos opinion.Slatersteven (talk) 14:34, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
According to a recent RfC, Bellingcat is a RS. Furthermore, Bellingcat has a stellar reputation on matters related to the Syrian Civil War. It does not need to be attributed, but if is to be attributed, then it should be attributed to Bellingcat, not "one man". Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:45, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to recall that the RSN discussion said something about attribution. But I have no issue with changing from the author to Bellingcat.Slatersteven (talk) 14:48, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah: generally reliable, attribution preferred. I don't have any problem with attributing the statement to Bellingcat here, although it seems like this is not just the opinion of one journalist: local press (12) and Politifact both described the group in similar terms when reporting on the Kucinich story. Nblund talk 17:46, 2 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is the implication he said what he said because he was paid as much as the accusation they are an advocacy group.Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know which came first, (lobbyists tend to target people that already agree with them) but that implication is consistent with the source. Nblund talk 13:48, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not disputing that, I am saying it is too serious an allegation to be stated as fact when it only has a single source.Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose I don't see it as all that serious: it's sort of the point of lobbying. Are you saying we need more than the current in text attribution? Nblund talk 14:18, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such implication. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:19, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then what relevance does what he went on to say have, either it is linked or it is not.Slatersteven (talk) 14:22, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That he take money from a pro-Assad lobby group and that pro-Assad lobby groups feel that he's worthy of money are both pertinent info, as demonstrated by the RS coverage. Usually, people turn away money from unsavoury groups, and when they don't, that's notable. That unsavoury groups decide to reward certain people is also notable. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:30, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
One RS covered this. Thus the whole thing needs attribution.Slatersteven (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But it has attribution, right? I'm a little unclear on what's being suggested here that would differ from the current version. Nblund talk 15:03, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am also wondering that, I am not the one arguing against the current version.Slatersteven (talk) 15:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
When I read it, it sounded like to me it was implying his opinion was based on the donation. It mentions his view, then talks about the donation, and then says "That same year..." this alone makes it sound like his opinion is based on the donation. Some of you seem to be suggesting that instead, this group donated to someone who has the same opinion as them. In any case, we need to make it very clear what we're trying to say, and there is definitely some confusion here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FCC8:6A09:300:C51A:AA9D:9277:4C5 (talk) 01:41, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No we are reporting what RS have said, we cannot analyse that and come to nay conclusions, only RS can do that.Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Trackinfo apparently doesn't like this group being called "pro-Assad", and is removing the reference, claiming the something called "Influence Watch" says otherwise.

  • "Influence Watch" says nothing -- nil, nada, fuck-all -- about whether the organization is "pro-Assad", or anti-Assad, or Assad-less, or any other Assad things. There's nothing for be to "accepted" about this reference because it is entirely irrelevant, and Influence Watch is a source for nothing except the organization's mailing address, really.
  • The source of the "pro-Assad" characterization is the Bellingcat reference. Don't like it? It's not Wikipedia's or Trackinfo's place to contradict a source just because he doesn't like it.
  • Despite his being wrong from the start and it not being necessary, I gave him another source anyways. So he was wrong both on the sourcing and on the straight facts, and he reverted anyways. Accuracy clearly is not his concern here, and someone needs to revert back. --Calton | Talk 12:31, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As I said on my talk page: Influence Watch notes if any organization has a bias or "Influence" get it? Its in the name. Its what they do. They mention Palestinians but do not mention Assad. If there was an influence by Assad, it would be their job to note it. Instead you quote from hit pieces and repeat from hit pieces. You and your like have turned this article about a guy doing a political comedy podcast out of his garage into character assassination. You might read about WP:BLP. Trashing a guy on his own BLP is not what wikipedia should be used for. If the conspiracy theories were what made him famous, maybe, but they aren't. (Not the that is WP:UNDUE at its core) You have completely lost the essence of his character or his show. I don't know who sent you to wikipedia, but before you edit any more, read a little about WP:NPOV. Trackinfo (talk) 02:59, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
...get it?
Yes, I'd forgotten that Influence Watch is the ONLY source in the world -- the only one! -- that documents influence, and if something isn't mentioned on its site it doesn't exist. So your logic is that when a reliable source says a thing exists, while another source -- which may or may not be reliable, come to think -- says absolutely nothing the thing, you go with "the thing doesn't exist".
Stick to track and field statistics, because basic logic seems to elude you.
Trashing a guy on his own BLP is not what wikipedia should be used for
Nobody is "trashing" someone, Wikipedia is documenting what a reliable source says. Both you and Apeholder don't like what it says -- Apeholder just straight up lied, claiming that the statement that AIPAC is pro-Assad is sourced from the paragraph that LITERALLY SOURCES IT, INCLUDING IN THE HEADLINE. Somebody -- somebodies -- needs a read of WP:NPOV, but it ain't me.
I don't know who sent you to wikipedia...
I've been here 15 years, genius, five years longer than you have. So, who sent YOU here? --Calton | Talk 04:17, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Admittedly you've been on wikipedia longer, by 29 months almost to the day. Whatever math brought you to 5 years might reflect on your own credibility. I was referring to you, snooogans and the other IPs arriving at editing this article within days of each other, all pushing the slime added to a previously innocuous article that I have been watching and occasionally contributing to for several years. When these things happen, some outside force caused it. Did you get a directive or inspired from another site? You had to look for this stuff, or get shown. None of these "conspiracy theorist" accusations show up in the first 10 pages of a google search on Dore even now. It is not what he is about. Its not why he has a half a million subscribers. Its obscure stuff from obscure sources you've dug up. Go back 9 months, it was not previously on his page. You had to be directed to find it but now its front line content you are pushing to have on his wikipedia page. While you have a CNN story leading it, Dore's rebuttal is not. I added it. Snoogans removed it. That rebuttal is; CNN is a commercial competitor and a frequent target of Dore. Discrediting Dore (that is what all of this is about) was a clear mission of CNN Money's story about advertising. It was a clear commercial effort, maybe even a directive from management, to discredit nontraditional online advertising destinations. Look at all these horrible people and organizations your advertising dollars are supporting; where your message is appearing. And in that article, Dore's left wing ideas were grouped and labeled, along with Nazis, White Supremacists and other right wing nutballs. CNN had a clear message to advertisers. You can't trust putting your dollars into online advertising, spend it on CNN where you won't be advertising adjacent to any radical ideas. Since that was added, you've gone further, pushing this point; that he has accepted a $2500 contribution. Now Dore is promoting crazy conspiracy theories. See, $2500. Dore can't be trusted. That is the ridiculous premise you are promoting by adding this content. This is an agenda. Yours? Someone else? Are you the player or getting played? Whichever, this stuff doesn't belong in a BLP. Trackinfo (talk) 06:10, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Twitter vs Rolling Stone Magazine

This information has been removed, with the following edit summary: "remove positions randomly plucked out of interview." I think it is relevant and should be included. -- Tobby72 (talk) 14:15, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I see no issue with it, he is an RS (as long as it is attributed) for what he says. If he denies a claim BLP means we should include said denial.Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The positions are plucked out an 1-hr interview. There is nothing to substantiate that they are DUE or that they accurately reflect where he truly stands on these issues. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:34, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As for the Tweet, that seems to be a response to RS characterizations of him, so it seems to fulfill the exception carved out for self-sourced content on Wikipedia. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:34, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I concur. It is reliably sourced material and was placed in the appropriate section/paragraph. It should be restored.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:40, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain how it's "reliably sourced material". It's a podcast interview. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:48, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Rolling Stone is RS.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:50, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Your contention is that podcasts hosted on platforms by RS are also RS? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:53, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. If this were posted/published on some users personal blog or something similar then that would be a different story. And the data retrieved is hardly controversial, and that is part of the issue I think. It seems pretty obvious to me that's what is going on here.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:24, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"It seems pretty obvious to me that's what is going on here." Good grief, it's all a grand conspiracy, isn't it? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:35, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Making the observation that more than a few here seek to include only the most inflammatory and controversial content in this BLP, and at the same time remove material which is not, hardly makes one a conspiracy theorist.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 15:47, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thus far, I've sought to include RS content and exclude non-RS content in a way consistent with how I've edited as a seasoned editor across Wikipedia pages, whereas you have in a unprincipled fashion randomly chosen to exclude RS content when it doesn't fit your POV and sought to pluck random quotes from a hour-long interview when it does fit your POV. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:38, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"whereas you have in a unprincipled fashion randomly chosen to exclude RS content when it doesn't fit your POV". The pot calling the kettle black.[31], [32] -- Tobby72 (talk) 07:45, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I started a discussion on the RS noticeboard.[33] Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bellingcat sourced content

Seriously, there is a dubious claim on here from the Bellingcat "investigative journalism" outlet. I seriously hope this site is not taken as a credible source on WP? This outlet is funded by The National Endowment for Democracy - a right-wing corporate think tank who essentially help the CIA and other western nations to overthrow other countries that don't allow themselves to be bullied by the WTO and IMF. A diabolical organisation and anyone accepting funding from them has seriously tainted any credibility they already had. Here's an e.g. from Consortium News (the outlet that broke the Watergate scandal before someone automatically assumes "they can't be credible because I've never heard of them")
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/28/the-dirty-hand-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-in-venezuela/ Or Der Speigel calling out their analysis of military aerial footage: https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/expert-criticizes-allegations-of-russian-mh17-manipulation-a-1037125.html Apeholder (talk) 02:47, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you don't describe a crackpot conspiracy website founded in 1995 as "the outlet that broke the Watergate scandal" and misleadingly claim that Der Spiegel has criticized Bcat when the only thing Der Spiegel did was interview someone who criticized Bcat. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:50, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
:The latest RfC at RSN found that bellingcat was generally reliable. Whether or not that is a correct assessment, we would need another RfC to challenge it. It is plausible that the Association for Investment in Popular Action Committees contributed $3500 to Dore's program. Lots of people contribute to his show for different reasons. My concern is whether it includes weight for inclusion. The article was not about Dore and I don't see any coverage of the story in other sources. I have never added information from an investigative report to any article for that reason. So unless someone can show the story meets weight, it should be removed. Incidentally, the word implies a quid pro quo although there is no evidence for that. TFD (talk) 03:30, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Given this is a BLP, it should be removed or at the very least the section tagged.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 04:08, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged for what? Using RS to bring information to readers on Dores views? The section lays out Dores views as expressed by Dore on Twitter etc , and a response in a RS. Whats the problem. The article isn't exactly overbearingly long, I'm sure readers can cope with these few sentences. If Dore thinks stories of cw attacks are part of some conspiracy, and has no time for OPCW -JIM reports, thats important isn't it? WP:NOT CENSORED. (As for TFD saying its not had wide coverage , that is because Dore is not very notable at all as it is, so cutting away what little there is in RS is the opposite of helpful and furthers ignorance about the subjects views. Not what WP is supposed to be doing is it really ).Bulldog Antz (talk) 21:16, 20 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged for being questionable. The whole issue here, which were unnecessarily opposed by @Snooganssnoogans: is that it is apparently reasonable to consider JD's views as questionable due to his receipt of funds from a think-tank. Conversely, it is apparently totally unreasonable to also consider the Bellingcat source as compromised even though they have MUCH more questionable financiers that are pure propaganda e.g. National Endowment For Democracy. Why is it okay to say someone isn't being honest because of their receipt of funds, when another person is given a free pass? The usual WP Russiagate hypocrisy here. I'm going to add a 'better source needed' tag and I really hope it will remain until one appears. WP will continue to decline if we don't hold the same accountability across the board. Apeholder (talk) 00:18, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tagged for being WP:UNDUE per TFD above. I am all for citing RS to make sure readers get accurate and DUE information on Dore and his POV. I added material on Dore's views months ago from a far superior source than Bellingcat (published by Brill Academic Publishers), but it was deleted by another editor.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 05:50, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Brill book quote did not address his views on cw attacks in Syria so really I think you are totally missing the point. Your animus against Bellingcat is superseded by the numerous RS that regard Bellingcat in a quite different light. Bellingcat lays out all its evidence for its conclusions, open source investigations, and is open about the sources of its money. Bellingcat's authors have won numerous accolades and awards. Apart from the essay you cite, what has Rob Williams written ? ( o.k. I looked up his essay and it seems he is a journalist in Vermont for a 'radical news journal'. 'far superior' to Bellingcat as a source? Ho, and indeed, hum.) Bulldog Antz (talk) 06:52, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So, it went from "Using RS to bring information to readers on Dores views" to "The Brill book quote did not address his views on cw attacks in Syria so really I think you are totally missing the point". I think this gets to the crux of the problem here. It's less about giving DUE weight to his political views as a leftist progressive (such a description was in the lede until it was purged), and more about giving UNDUE weight to a very narrow selection of controversial views, such as the Seth Rich case and the cw attacks in Syria (and especially the insinuation he is being paid off to promote a certain view on the latter), that can be used to paint the subject of the article as nothing but a conspiracy theorist. His views on class warfare and US imperialism, as discussed in the materials added from Brill book, which again is an academic publisher (making it WP:RS), have been removed, even though proper attribution was applied to the author of that work. Likewise, his views on universal healthcare, raising the minimum wage, the US-backed Saudi war in Yemen, etc., have also been removed over the last year or so. If you are going to include the Bellingcat material, fine. But why purge reliably sourced content describing Dore's views with proper attribution such as the Brill book? This is why the article as it exists now should be tagged for neutrality, at least IMO.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
He rails against the dark money behind the news, so he thinks the money thing is important. Bulldog Antz (talk) 22:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, so that's why it's also important to question the dark-money behind Bellingcat, as the National Endowment For Democracy are very clear about their actions assisting the CIA to overthrow and undermine foreign governments. Straight up propaganda and they don't even try to hide it. So, as I said above, it makes no sense to say "this guy is compromised by his dark-money", but also "don't question the dark-money behind the news outlet questioning his dark-money". Where is the logic behind that?? So yes, it really needs a neutrality tag because all of his general views have been gradually removed as the guy above says, and in typically biased WP style, only the possibly questionable comments left up. Entirely biased censorship and totally against the principles of Wikipedia. Apeholder (talk) 01:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Bellingcat WP article addresses its sources of money. Bulldog Antz (talk) 11:38, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Snooganssnoogans and Calton: Jimmy Dore is mentioned in a Bellingcat article criticizing the Serena Shim Award.[34] –84.46.52.75 (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Bellingcat article says the United Nations has confirmed that the Syrian government, the only party to the conflict known to possess the Sarin and an air force, was responsible. As I sourced above[35], the United Nations itself says The report does not assign blame for the likely use of chlorine gas, and found no grounds or evidence, to support an assertion from the Syrian Government that rebel fighters in Douma had use a local facility, to manufacture chemical weapons. The Bellingcat article is reporting a fact about the UN that is diametrically opposed to what the UN says. That, my friends, is a lie. It means Bellingcat is not only not a reliable source, but is in fact a fraud. All of this is, as I accused above, a smear against Jimmy Dore in a BLP. Accordingly, I will remove the smears in this article attributed to Bellingcat. Trackinfo (talk) 22:53, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The RS noticeboard has concluded that Bellingcat is a RS. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 23:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
So we are expected to follow RS noticeboard and their eminent research team (that doesn't exist) or now that I have proven a reason NOT to believe Bellingcat we'll just override our lying eyes? Trackinfo (talk) 23:35, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Other than the distant analysis of a poorly informed RD noticeboard, nobody has produced a good reason to believe Bellingcat after I proved they are deliberately lying. But the slime was restored to the article, including removing the contradicting source, the UN itself. There is some artificial force pushing the directive to discredit Dore, fast. This is a BLP. This stuff doesn't belong here. Somebody please revert this. Trackinfo (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1RR now applied to the article

Please be mindful, everyone. Thanks. El_C 01:25, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You may find this pertinent Snooganssnoogans Apeholder (talk) 01:56, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
El_C - can you please link to the exact part of BLP you're referring to re: the Podesta email quote? Apeholder (talk) 02:00, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Public_figures. El_C 02:07, 22 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like the edit in question brought up the quote by citing WikiLeaks directly. However, it has also appeared in an RS source. If we include the context, I don't there is a BLP issue. Only a question of whether Dore calling out Podesta is notable. Connor Behan (talk) 16:29, 28 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

RS content

After reading BLP, is it agreeable that JD's own YT videos, Twitter, etc. are all good sources to detail his views on a subject? This article needs more balance and NPOV has clearly not been followed. I just wanted a consensus here before any edits are immediately reverted Apeholder (talk) 06:31, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, because interpretation would be required. A lot of the negative material could be removed however if we followed content policies, such as WP:REDFLAG, using sources that merely mention Dore in passing and presenting opinions as facts. TFD (talk) 06:42, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
But what about when the statement is clear cut e.g. "...and this is why we need medicare for all" after doing a segment about the high cost of healthcare for instance? As for RF, yes I will have a look at that link Apeholder (talk) 07:05, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's only clear to you because you are familiar with the program. I can get quotes of Democrats supporting medicare for all who have since backtracked or by medicare for all mean something different from what most people would understand. TFD (talk) 07:15, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then it would be reasonable to show how a Democrat was once for M4A, but then also include a further quote showing how their opinion has changed. There's no reason why something can't be kept up to date without having to be 10 pages long Apeholder (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's original research. In order to do that effectively, you would need to know what the discussion was and how it evolved over time. For example the public option was championed by progressives in 2008, but isn't today. Progressives actually voted for the Affordable Care Act. You would also need to study Dore's postings over the years to see how this views have or have not evolved. While it could be informative, it goes beyond what is expected for an encyclopedia. TFD (talk) 15:08, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no, we can use them (as far as I am concerned) for his opinions (As long as they are stated as opinions) and as long as they clearly say that. But it has to be his last word on the subject we use, unless we say "in..." to make it clear this is a snap shot view.Slatersteven (talk) 08:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
His views , as reported on by himself, how are we sure they are of sufficient interest/weight to include. I think once his views are picked up , and commented on, by RS, then his views and the comment generated thereon, could be included. Otherwise whats to stop the article becoming like an election leaflet ' Jimmy Dore is for good affordable housing, free healthcare, he is anti-war, 'all wars are bullshit', ' etc etc etc. Who fucking cares about his sophomoric geopolitical b/s. Wait for RS to pick up on the comedians views, don't just lay them all out there on a wikipedia page. He has his own shows for that. Bulldog Antz (talk) 13:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
With that in mind, then why have all his views been removed from this page except ones that make him look a conspiracy theory loon? We are having real issues keeping this article NPOV TBH. Maybe ALL his views should be removed to keep it neutral then Apeholder (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no, if we mention his views then his views on that should be included. We cannot claim (in our voice) something he denies saying or thinking. BUt his views are not automatically notable on any topic.Slatersteven (talk) 13:28, 24 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Then why have all his views except been removed from this page except ones that make him look a conspiracy theory loon? We are having real issues keeping this article NPOV TBH. Maybe ALL his views should be removed to keep it neutral then Apeholder (talk) 14:47, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If his views are covered by RS that is different form using him for his views.Slatersteven (talk) 15:04, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That makes absolutely no sense. Imagine JD makes a controversial statement, gets lots of press and then it's covered on here. An article from say the Guardian would be okay, but a rebuttal he put out himself online would be removed as it's from himself and not RS? How does any of that make sense? Apeholder (talk) 17:51, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, a rebuttal to something we say here would be OK.Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please archive yrs-old discussions

There's no reason to keep 4-yr old discussions. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:01, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done! TFD (talk) 07:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Seth Rich

Mainstream media discussed the murder of Seth Rich and so did Jimmy Dore. We need a source that says there was something unusual about his coverage otherwise it is original research. TFD (talk) 03:58, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's a difference between discussing conspiracy theories and promoting them. Both of the two cited RS cover it in the context of the latter. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:09, 11 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Salon article is by Amanda Marcotte who is described as a "politics writer. "That's the the same Marcotte who argued for the guilt of the Duke lacrosse players even after they were exonerated. (See Reactions to the Duke lacrosse case.) It fails rs. David Weigel writing in the Washington Post at least is a journalist, although his writing contains facts and opinions. But all he says is "Briefly, before Wheeler recanted his story, the Young Turks network's “Jimmy Dore Show” chewed over the revelation that Rich was in contact with WikiLeaks....Dore's show has backed away from the story since Wednesday." In other words, he did exactly what network news did.
Note too that Marcotte's claim that "Dore cited a retracted Fox News story" is inconsistent with Weigel's statement that Dore discussed the story before it was retracted.
TFD (talk) 17:20, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No, Weigel is explicitly covering Dore's Seth Rich BS in the context of conspiracy theories and fake news (the title is literally "The Seth Rich conspiracy shows how fake news still works"), i.e. Dore as a conspiracy-peddler, not as someone "reporting on the controversy" as you are deceptively suggesting:
  • "The theory that Rich was offended by these emails assumes that 1) he saw them, which is not suggested by any of the emails' headers, and that 2) he would have interpreted exasperated emails in May as proof of anti-Sanders perfidy that the world needed to see. This doesn't comport with reality — but it is attractive to the most die-hard progressive foes of Clinton. The Rich conspiracy thrived not just because fringe conservatives liked the idea of a break in the “Clinton body count” theory, but that the idea that someone would murder a leaker to cover up a conspiracy against Bernie Sanders would justify so much angst. Briefly, before Wheeler recanted his story, the Young Turks network's “Jimmy Dore Show” chewed over the revelation that Rich was in contact with WikiLeaks."[36]
Marcotti did not claim that Dore cited a retracted Fox story. She literally says, "When it was revealed that the source of much of the conspiracy theory, Rod Wheeler, is a fraud, Dore kept insisting about the existence of "a lot of red flags" and there "is probably something more to this story" around Rich's death."[37] In other words, Dore kept promoting the conspiracy theory even after he was shown that the conspiracy theory was baseless. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:06, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that article titles are not reliable sources and interpreting specific claims contained in an article based on our understanding of the context is original research: "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." In any case your whole approach is contrary to policy. Instead of looking for sources that support your personal opinions, you should identity sources that are "directly related to the topic of the article," not articles that mention it in passing. And you still have not addressed the fact that your second source fails rs. Could you please remove it so that we can save time at RSN. TFD (talk) 19:57, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There is no interpretation. It's basic reading comprehension. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:12, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Where in the text about Dore does he say what you claim? To repeat, Weigel wrote, “Jimmy Dore Show” chewed over the revelation that Rich was in contact with WikiLeaks....Dore's show has backed away from the story since Wednesday." TFD (talk) 20:21, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone fix the archiving?

No need for 3-yr old comments. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:33, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, a bot will do this. –84.46.52.210 (talk) 16:21, 8 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly not yet fixed, new attempt, I'll figure this out, it worked elsewhere: 1 2 3. –84.46.53.207 (talk) 01:52, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, fresh observation, on Talk:Emma Blackery 12 sections survived a maximum of 10 (with default 2 threads to archive) for more than 12 hours, so maybe the bot simply enjoys a well-deserved WP:NORUSH wiki-break. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 00:24, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
JFTR, I've seen the talk page archive bot alive and kicking on WT:RFD today. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 03:31, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The syntax copied as is from Talk:Kim Iversen was okay, the bot is just busy after its wiki-break. I'll reset the usual "keep ten sections" + "archive at least two" when this page was processed, it's no high traffic talk page. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 08:04, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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