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December 11

Classical and Modern Greek?

How intelligible are the 2, if at all? thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moffo (talk • contribs)

A speaker of Modern Greek would not be able to understand Classical Greek without undertaking a specific course of study, if that is what you mean. Clio the Muse 00:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This same question was asked a couple of weeks ago. See the archived answers: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_November_24#Classical_and_Modern_Greek. Wareh 02:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

J in 4th position

I was playing Scrabble the other day, and had the chance to get a Triple Word Score. The letter J was 3 letters away from the Triple Word Score position, and the maximum length of the word was 6 letters. Apart from the fact that I didn't have very good letters, I couldn't think of any word that is no more than 6 letters long and has a J in 4th position. Any ideas? Is there a site I can access to search for words using these sorts of parameters? JackofOz 00:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Banjos. Donjon. Logjam. Trojan. You want a good Crossword Solver. Ziggurat 01:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The /usr/share/dict/words file on the UNIX system I'm using lists 56 uncapitalized words meeting the specification, but only one is a common word, which was just mentioned. The full list is: acajou ajaja avijja banjo benj benjy boojum cadjan canjac chaja cooja cunjah cunjer donjon dooja dorje evejar finjan frijol ganja geejee goujon guijo gunj gurjun hadj hadji inaja jimjam jinja khaja khajur khoja konjak linja linje manjak masjid moujik munj outjet outjut pinjra ponja popjoy prajna punjum sanjak shoji subjee tanjib thujin thujyl tonjon trajet witjar. The list is supposed to be based on "Webster's Second", so it may not include some newer words; the spellings "hadj" and "hadji" (rather than hajj and hajji) strike me as out-of-date. It lists "Trojan" only with a capital, and does not have "logjam" as a single word. Of course this is of no help for Scrabble purposes where one of the official Scrabble dictionaries or some other dictionary is agreed on.

--Anonymous, December 11, 01:29 (UTC).

Excellent answers. "Logjam" and "banjos" are the only words above that would ever have occurred to me - but didn't. "Toejam" also dropped into my head just now. JackofOz 01:35, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

You could always consult a ouija board.--Shantavira 09:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

He he. I'll try that next time I'm playing Scrabble with a medium. JackofOz 03:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why has no-one thought of ninja? СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 03:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Cowabunga! (They're not as smart as you, that's why.) Thanks. :) JackofOz 23:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone mentioned feijoa yel? Grutness...wha? 05:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll add it to my mental list. Thanks, Grutness. JackofOz 00:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Old German Word for "tank"

I am trying to confirm that the old German word for "tank" was "schutzengrabenvernichtungsautomobile". I would appreciate any help. Thanks.

I know we Germans are very good at inventing complicated words in bureaucratic contexts, mostly by using compound words like Schützengrabenvernichtungsautomobil (that would be be a correct singular form), but I've never heard of that word, and the German Panzer article has nothing about it. Google's search results make me believe it's just a joke by someone who wanted to invent a funny German word for tank. --Dapete^ばか 09:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it seems absurdly complicated, especially as those Germans who first saw tanks would be ordinary front line soldiers. For them Panzerkampfwagen would be a more exact description. Clio the Muse 09:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Pre WWII german tank AV7 is referred to as Sturmpanzerwagen, or Schwerer Kampfwagen in pages I have found. Can't discount the above long name though.

Looking at A7V quote "..name is probably derived from the Allgemeines Kriegsdepartement 7 Abteilung Verkehrswesen ("General War Department 7, Branch Transportation")" and In German the tank was called Sturmpanzer-Kraftwagen (roughly "assault armoured motor vehicle"). Given that a web search for "schutzengraben........." turns up next to nothing I'd guess it's a made up 'cod-german' name; though if it were correct it would seem to refer to the British Mark I tank rather than any home grown vehicle since the A7V doesn't seem very good at crossing trenches..87.102.44.80 18:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

This German WWI photo uses the words "tank" and "panzerauto".--Menah the Great 02:34, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I wrote a report on World War I in Elementary School in the mid 1970's and remember seeing this exact word used for a type or make of an early tank used during the war. I remember the word distinctly!!! Ironically, I googled the word to see if I remembered such a long word correctly, to no avail, so I searched "Schutzengraben." A result in the German Wikipedia describes it as a 'contact ditch.' Otherwise a trench built to shield soldiers from shell fire, yet allow them to combat while at least kneeling. "Vernichtung" is destruction or annihilation, and "automobil"...well... So, it is a vehicle used to destroy trenches, or a trench crossing vehicle used for destruction. My guess is the latter, but it IS a valid word, albeit little known. --Richard Reiss, Jr. 04:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC) Richard Reiss

Also from the 1970's or 80's, when I was a child and particularly interested in WWI, I remember the term "schutzengrabenvernichtungpanzerkraftwagen" (-vernichtung-, or -vernichte-?)- a word so marvellous compared to "tank" that I memorized it! Unfortunately, I don't remember from whence it came. (It might have been via a schoolfriend who was a tank enthusiast, or it might have been a Guinness Book of Records entry for long words; there was a German word describing a military rank that was 84 letters long!) Anyway, even if this is an authentic word, I would suggest that this was just an official name (like the title of the engineering project to develop the vehicle), rather than a noun that anyone actually used. [A non-member who just happened to have browsed to this page]

-Another person browsing- I distinctly recall the old german word for tank, as taught to me by my german teacher, from germany, being "schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen". I don't know where the the differences came from between mine and yours, but they all mean the same things. abwehr means resistance, clearance, defense, fahr means drive.... yeah. Just an observation. -RH

I am a New Zealander now living in Australia. I attended high schools in Gore, Timaru and Dunedin, New Zealand in the early 1950s, and it was during that time that I came across this word: schutzengrabenvernichtungpanzerkraftwagen. I, too, have memorized it over all these years and, recently, have been trying to get my 7-year-old granddaughter, who is learning German, to learn it. Tonight, May 14, 2011, I thought I would check for it on the internet and came across this Wikipedia article. So, I am adding this as confirmation that this word was being used, albeit many years ago, as a German name for a military tank. -CALM

I also learned "Schutzengrabenvernichtungspanzerkraftwagen" years ago (late 70s/early 80s)- I have always believed (on no evidence at all!) that it was the name for the biggest-ever tank designed in WWII but never built as it was impractical. - Dick Wolfling

My grandfather was involved in WW1, both at Gallipoli, and then in France. He had a number of reference books on the war, included amongst which was a many-volumed version of "The Times History of the War", which is still in our possession. In this publication there is a photograph of an early German tank which is clearly labelled in the printed caption as a "Schutzengrabenvernichtungpanzerkraftwagen". So (at least as far as that most English of contemporaneous accounts was concerned), that was the official name given to the machine. The English name, I am told, derived from a War Office "code word" for the device, which they had similar difficulty in naming. The Germans, like us, quickly shortened their long-winded compound noun to the more or less well-known "Panzer".

- R.B., New Zealand.

Aranzabal

Does anyone know where the surname "Aranzabal" originates from? Thanks. 24.254.92.184 07:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's Basque. This website has some information but doesn't appear to be particularly authoritative. -THB 10:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

What language used in mid/late 20th C. Skopje?

I have an undated, post-WWII photograph of the gates to a Jewish cemetery in Skopje (formerly Yugoslavia, now Republic of Macedonia).

Underneath the Hebrew text are the words in block letters: " IZRAELITSЌO POKOPALIŠČE " (the diacritics being my best guess). My questions:

• What language is this?
• What does the text mean?

-- Many thanks, Deborahjay 07:34, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Pokopališče is Slovene for "cemetery", which is kind of surprising for Skopje. "Ќ" is not a letter in modern Slovene, but if the diacritic is wrong, it might be Slovene for Israelite - a word most often used in those days as a synonym for Jewish. "Jewish cemetery" is the logical translation, and Slovene the most likely language. --Diderot 08:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the mark at the upper left of the capital letter "K" is indistinct in the photo. Your suggested translation is excellent for the context. As for the Slovene, I'm captioning this "a regional language, possibly Slovene." Hope that's suitable... and I note with appreciation your remark about "Israelite" for "Jewish" -- a bane too often treated literally (as though a cognate) in irresponsible translations to English. Thanks! Deborahjay 09:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It was written in Macedonia, therefore its Macedonian language. If you look at the Macedonian alphabet you will see it has the letter Ќ. While it is strange that its written in Latin script (rather than Cyrilic) its not unheard of as can be seen in Romanisation of Macedonian. Shinhan 10:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Shinhan, I've updated my (conveniently electronic) text accordingly. It's likely to be some time before I might be able to confirm further details about the history of this sign. -- Deborahjay 10:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it can be Macedonian. "Ќ" is a Cyrillic letter - it's not present in Macedonian transliterations. Besides, I can't find any reference to pokopališče as a word for "cemetery" in Macedonian. The only words I can find for it in Macedonian are cognate to the south Slavic root globl- or to the Turkish mezar-. It wasn't until after WWII that Macedonian was codified as a language different from western dialects of Bulgarian, and Bulgarian has never been written with the Roman alphabet, so a pre-WWII inscription in Macedonian is pretty unlikely. It is odd to find Slovene so far south, and I'd consider Serbo-Croatian plausible if pokopališče is a rare or archaic word for cemetery in Serbo-Croatian. It's possible because pokopati is, I think, the perfective of "to bury" in Serbo-Croatian. But I think it's unlikely that it's Macedonian. -- Diderot 11:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Your remarks are most convincing, Diderot, in light of the limited information available. Perhaps the Skopje Jewish community (whose cemetery this is) might have been an enclave of immigrants from neighboring countries at some point, thus speaking and writing another language besides or instead of the local Macedonian. (Similar to the various first-generation immigrant subcultures in my own Western Galilee, who retain their homeland's language along with their acquired Hebrew even in quasi-official community usage.) -- Thanks, Deborahjay 12:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's definitely Slovenian, but I don't have any explanation how it got to Skopje (are you positive it's Skopje?) There were numerous Slovenian refugees to Serbia during WWII, so it might be a reason, but I'm wild-guessing. Diacritic on "Ќ" should not be there — maybe a damage on the inscription or photo? The only reference I googled for "Izraelitsko Pokopalisce" is the one in Nova Gorica; another one says that the one in Gorica is "the only preserved Jewish Cemetery in Slovenia". Duja► 10:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Drug eluting stents

The above template is included to publicize the new template now available by typing:

{{strict}}

My question is about the name of this medical device. I believe "elute" means "to remove (adsorbed material) from an adsorbent by means of a solvent". Therefore, the stent does not "elute" drugs, but, rather, the blood "elutes" the drug from the stent. Do you agree that this is an incorrect usage ? I think "drug coated stent" is much more clear. StuRat 13:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If you don't mind some feedback on the wording: do you actually mean "avoid", or perhaps rather (what I'd suggest) "refrain from"...? -- Deborahjay 13:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point, would "avoid adding" also work ? StuRat 16:50, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably - I think I see your point, that it's preferable for colloquial language. Good going with the template! Deborahjay 21:01, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but I didn't create it, I'm just helping to publicize it. StuRat 22:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Back to your question. I agree with you. The wording is not descriptive of the stent, so it may have been coined as a description of the drug delivery system - a "drug eluting system" (system = artery + stent + coating + blood) being one where drug is eluted from the stent by the blood. My own opinion is that it is too late to change that, and one would probably have to go along with general usage for the title of the article. I have heard one talk about how the stent elutes the drug into the blood stream and the blood vessel wall, a case of a person knowing very well what they are talking about, but not necessarily what they are saying. And it sounds so much more high-tech to say "eluting" (cool 'n classy like chromatography) than it is to say "coated" (boring like barn door paint) or "medicated" (plain like pimple cream). And high tech sells, so the makers and advertisers (including doctors) will likely continue abusing the language. The companies and their advertisers probably thought a lot about that. I would suggest that the technically correct names and the meaning of elute be given somewhere. My question would be: If one leaves the article title as it is, would redirects for the alternative names be necessary? -- Seejyb 22:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. I hate needlessly complex terminology with a passion, myself, or should I call myself a "complexificationaphobe" ? :-) StuRat 03:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

first verse of French poem that begins, "quand vous serez veille et decrepit" by whom?.

quand je seris vielle et decrepit

I think Pierre de Ronsard is the person you are looking for. An English poem that goes like that is by Yeats [1]. --thunderboltz^(Deepu) 14:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the Ronsard sonnet you mean is this one. (No decrepitude per se here, but I consider it less likely you're looking for this Bernard Joyet lyric "Vivez, prenez de la bouteille, / Rev'nez quand vous serez bien vieille, / Ridée, décrépite, édentée, / Ça peut m'tenter..." For more, click on "quelques textes" here.) Wareh 22:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

what does this mean?

I recently bought a needlepoint of this saying, and am curious as to what it says and in which language:

Dankeno ruckwarts mutig vorwarts glaubig aufwarts

you may email me at: <removed to protect you from Spam>—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.187.0.72 (talk • contribs)

I think that there are some typos and that it should be

Dankend rückwärts

mutig vorwärts

gläubig aufwärts

It is German, and it means "Thanking (thankfully) backward, courageously forward, faithfully (devoutly) upward". It seems to be a proverb. Marco polo 16:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The implied verb with those expressions is something like, "Let us look" or "We ought to look." Wareh 22:51, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

english

what is the opossite of eagle? i mean if eagle is a male then what would be his female.

Both sexes are eagles. Sexes of birds tend not to be differentiated by name except in game birds or poultry, where this is of more significance to people, but female birds of any most species can be termed hens.--Shantavira 18:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Shantavira, according to the eagles article, they're ALL male. Apparently for eagle, they're just called male and female, not even hens for females: see [2] -THB 21:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

OK Take It Easy, I'm a New Kid in Town.--Shantavira 09:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You guys and your puns; One of These Nights you'll Take It to the Limit and wind up as Reference Desk Desperados, though I Can't Tell You Why.---62.65.129.85 10:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Everyone just Get Over It. -THB 10:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

There's going to be a Heartache Tonight if this continues! Though maybe in The Long Run it'll be better for everyone. - Taxman ^Talk 19:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I've got to get out of this place, if it's the last thing I ever do. :) JackofOz 23:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Alright, you blew the theme. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. You're coming down to the station. - Taxman ^Talk 03:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Aw, that's pretty tough. Eagles are animals too. JackofOz 23:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion has Already Gone on long enough ...  :) Engineer Bob 01:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Farsi script translation

Hi all,

Although I have put in hours of internet search time, I have yet to find a good source showing the Persian last name "Shirazi" written in Farsi. I'm curious if anyone here can help, or at least offer a redirect to a better source of information. In addition, written Farsi often operates like cursive in English (to the best of my knowledge), with several letters being written continuously, connected together. This has been the main point of difficulty for me. "Shirazi" is my last name (I'm half-Persian, but can't read/write Farsi), and I would love to finally have a reliable source for what this would look like in said script. Thanks in advance... -Matt128.138.114.149 22:26, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Shirazi is a family name of Hafez (poet). Cutting and pasting from there: شیرازی

The spacing may not look quite right in your browser. Note that Persian is written from right to left. "Hafez Shirazi" is written more artistically in this image (everything from the long, wavy, horizontal-ish stroke, and on to the left is "Shirazi"). Also see this street sign (the largest-printed word, blue against white, is "Shirazi"). Wareh 00:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wareh, thank you so much. The version in calligraphy is exactly what I was looking for. Not to be too demanding, but would you (or anyone else) have further examples of Shirazi in calligraphic Farsi? -Matt

Well, here's the email contact form for a Persian calligrapher whose name is Shirazi. Try dropping him a line and telling him about your dream to see the name you guys share in lovely lettering...? Wareh 03:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again, Wareh. I really appriciate your effort. I will try to contact the calligrapher you tracked down, and see what he can do for me... some of his work might make an amazing Christmas (or norouz!) gift for my dad... I really appriciate it. -Matt 128.138.230.137 05:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

arawakan online language dictionary

I'm looking for an online arawak language translation dictionary i'm particularly interested in finding the word fashion in arwak translation--Hnives 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)Hnives

"Arawak" covers a lot of ground, most of it cemetery ground. Different tribes were grouped under that label, and most of them died out before any kind of modern documentation about them existed. The Taíno are the only ones to have made it into the industrial age. There is a Taíno dictionary online at taino-tribe.org, but it's pretty thin. --Diderot 16:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Bye vs. Cya

Why is it that in the realm of instant messaging and SMS-ing, that a simple "bye" is considered ruder than vs its derivitaves (ie: Buh Bye, ttyl, cya, etc.)? Who establishes chatroom etiquettes? 61.5.56.28 23:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's ruder, however, not using "cya" or derivatives implies that the user might not talk to the recipient again. --Wooty Woot? contribs 23:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that without the benefit of inflection, "bye" sounds very abrupt, like it's coming at the end of a fight or something. "Buh bye" gets around that by adding an extra, softer syllable. As for who sets etiquette... no one in particular. It just sort of emerges, in my opinion. —Seqsea (talk) 23:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Is "bye" considered ruder? If someone said "buh bye" to me, I would think of the SNL sketch, where the phrase is quite rude. So... which chat rooms and whose SMSs are we talking about? In fact, I would also consider "cya" ruder than "see ya" and even "ttyl" more coloquial than "later!" (though not rude). Perhaps, because "bye" is a preset message on some phones? Or that most of the other phrases are longer than "bye"? — vijay (Talk) 01:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Bye, as in as its own sentence at the end of an SMS or instant messaging, (windows Live, Yahoo, etc.) A rough outline of the SMS from my friend was "ga tak megerti maksudmu. aq akn pergi makan.bye" (I don't understand your meaning. I am going to go eat. Bye.) My phone deletes SMS's after a day (tiny memory, this thing is probably from 98 or something like that), so I don't have the exact sms. I want to explain to her why I got the impression she was mad at me. Maybe its just a location or personal preference for bye, however. Aku tak tahu. Crisco 1492 09:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

December 12

idealogy v ideology

In some dictionaries, "idealogy" is listed as a varient of "ideology." Does anyone know if this is British usage, or where it comes from? Would "idealogy" be kosher for use on Wikipedia? Would "ideology" be prefered? My instinct says to prefer "ideology" if for no other reason than to avoid having others constantly changing it due to a preceived typographical error. — vijay (Talk) 01:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess you could leave an HTML comment explaining the spelling ;) — vijay (Talk) 01:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

What's the point of using rare, alternative variants for words? I can't see the point of using alternate words without any reason behind them (i.e. semantic differences, etc.)... 惑乱 分からん 01:21, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Especially variants whose spellings are due to morphological misanalysis, like miniscule. Nohat 08:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, and "whilst". I can't figure out why anybody says that. "Anyhoo", too. -GTBacchus^(talk) 08:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I find myself wondering what's wrong with 'whilst', I've never heard of 'idealogy' and can't find it in a couple of British dictionaries that I've tried. (btw my Collins dictionary says 'whilst' is "chief Brit." --Dweller 08:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"Idealogy" is probably based on the spelling of the word "idea" (but that's not how ancient Greek compounding happened to work, so technically it's considered incorrect...). AnonMoos 19:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Or even "ideal". 惑乱 分からん 21:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"She" as "it"

So, why does English use the pronoun "she" to refer to inanimate objects? Titoxd^(?!?) 01:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't usually. Boats are a common exception that are often refered to as "she". Rmhermen 02:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

See She. Seamen love their boats. See grammatical gender and noun class. Many languages have gendered nouns, English may be in the minority in that most nouns are not gendered. -THB 03:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I saw the article, but since it doesn't have any references, I couldn't use it, and came and asked the question here. Titoxd^(?!?) 03:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

There are detailed discussions in some of the larger early 20th-century grammars (i.e. Jespersen) etc. Other than in a few special cases, it's mostly an antiquated literary affectation by now -- and it has little to do with the grammatical gender found in languages such as French, Spanish, German etc. AnonMoos 03:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I second AnonMoos - using "she" to refer to inanimate object is a sign of affection and personification of said object, and has little to do with grammar. Since most nouns in English are genderless, you can theoretically use any pronoun (he, she, it) to replace them, although "it" would be most correct while the other two imply that you are attributing some form of person-like characteristic to the object. Men seem to do this more often than women, in my experience, usually when referring to big, noise-making things (cars, motorcycles, ships...) ;-) — QuantumEleven 21:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

English has no gender as others have noted. He can also get used for inanimate objects when they are being personified. But you wanted references. Jespersen is good as already noted. Also, take a look at Michael Barlow's A situated theory of agreement (1992) published by Garland and available in academic libraries for a theory of how agreement works as a semantic resource. It kind of takes the mystery away from the issue. mnewmanqc 03:15, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There are some British dialects where 'he' is often used to denote an inanimate object, certainly Hampshire where I am from. FreeMorpheme 13:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

FWIW, "she" is used colloquially in place of "it" for abstracts in Australia and New Zealand, hence the good old phrase "She'll be right" meaning "That's OK". Grutness...wha? 05:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I Like to See it Lap the Miles by Emily Dickinson

hey everyone. does anyone know what the poem "I like to see it lap the miles" by Emily Dickinson is about. i know it's about a train with the metaphor of a horse, but does anyone know anything beyond that. thanks!

-anon.

See [3] which incidently comes up first when Googling the title. Nice concise analysis. -THB 10:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there a {{homework}} tag? =) doktorb _words^deeds 14:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

yes, {{dyoh}} Shinhan 11:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Word for a person who has a love for teaching

I've been thinking about prefixes and suffixes lately for some reason, and this particular word has eluded me. You know how the suffix "-iphile" is used to indicate that someone has a love for something (like a "bibliophile," or a person who has a love for books)? What is the word for someone who has a love for teaching? I was under the impression that "-ped" was the proper prefix for something like this ("pedagogue," "pedantic") but that doesn't work for obvious reasons. :) Thanks! --pie4all88 13:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Aahh, actually, the ped-root in all of these words seem to be derived from the greek word for "child", while the "-agog" might be derived from Greek "agein" (to lead). "Pedantic" is from an Italian mangling... 惑乱 分からん 14:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

All these philia and phobia terms come from Greek, e.g., hydrophilia is a love of water. The Greek for "water" is hydor (as a prefix it becomes hydro-), and -philia (the suffix) is Greek for "liking" or "friendship". The Greek for "teacher" is didaskale or daskalos ("teach"), so it's very probably didaskalophilia or daskalophilia. Note I have no references to back this up, as I couldn't find any use of the word. The second one sounds better, but then ease of pronounciation has never been a concern with some of these constructions. Fear of teachers would therefore be daskalophobia. Proto::► 16:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would think that didaskalophilia would be a love of teachers. Apparently, "didaxis" (root "didak-" or "didac-" in the more usual Latin transliteration) means teaching. Wouldn't a love of teaching be more like didacophilia? Marco polo 16:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good too. I'm not sure there's a definitive answer. Proto::► 17:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks a lot for the help here, guys. Great job coming up with these answers! --Pie4all88 02:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The best-known English derivative of "didaxis" must be "didactic", which suggests "didactophile". Going back to the pedagogy root, one could also make "pedagogophile" (or in Britain, "paedogogophile" — although in a country where some of the yobs don't know a paedophile from a paediatrician, I think I'd want to avoid that one). There are a few Google hits on each of these and/or their corresponding -philia nouns; I have not checked any dictionaries to see if any of them is considered an established usage. --Anonymous, December 13, 02:15 (UTC).

My expertise is in Greek, not in English word-formation, but I'm dubious about all these suggestions & about the likelihood of success with this approach. You can find a word with active teaching connotations (say, paideusis, or maybe didache), but as soon as it's compounded with -philia, I think you're implying "love of teaching [performed by someone else]." Philomathy is the only English word with -phil- that really seems to mean "love of DOING X" (none of the -philias is close). Even in this case, the word implies love of something external to the lover, and expressions relating "teaching" to a person tend to drift in this direction, referring to someone else's teaching, which is effectively passive not active (Herodotus says someone speaks ek didaches, "as a result of instruction [by someone else]" = "as instructed"). (Perhaps also "philology" originally meant love of engaging in discourse, but no one seems to understand it that way now; as a Sanskrit professor whose seminars proceeded at a glacial pace once announced, "Philology is the love of a word!" Anyway, I find it hard to cram the didask- stem into this pattern: philodidaxy? philodidachy? If you really need a vaguely Greekish words, these at least seem less to mean the opposite of what's intended.) FWIW, originally didaktikos has the idea of "skilled at teaching" and could certainly characterize a person. Wareh 20:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting! Thanks again for putting so much thought into this, everyone! --pie4all88 08:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Spanish

Can anyone translate this for me please.

"Hasta la vicroire siempre mi amigo!" Ken 15:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably a typo for "Hasta la victoria siempre, mi amigo!" meaning "Until the victory, always, my friend!" (It looks more like the French spelling victoire, strangely enough...) 惑乱 分からん 15:15, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK thanks. Ken 15:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

sofa, couch, settee

Of the three words 'sofa', 'couch' and 'settee', which would be considered middle class and which working class in the UK? --Auximines 17:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You could ask the ghost of Nancy Mitford -- see U and non-U English ... AnonMoos 19:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

"Couch" was non-U. -THB 20:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say that they stand for slightly different things, but just from the perspective of your question, I would say that "settee" is the most pretentious, while "couch" is the least (as well as sounding a bit American). "Sofa" is somewhere in between. — QuantumEleven 21:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm that's funny, because the editor who proofread my book said 'settee' is the least pretentious, and sofa (or chesterfield) is the most. Anchoress 02:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

When faced with a disagreement between a professional editor and QuantumEleven, I would go with the editor! ;-) — QuantumEleven 06:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Lol. I mean it, you actually made me laugh out loud. You are a very classy packet, XI. Anchoress 06:18, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I find it really hard to believe that anyone would say with a straight face that settee is less pretentious than couch and sofa. I don't believe I've ever encountered anyone using that word in spoken English, but I hear both sofa and couch all the time. I've heard that chesterfield is an old-fashioned term for a sofa that was used around where I am from (Northern California) but I've never heard anyone call a sofa a chesterfield. Nohat 06:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a lot of regional variation in the use of these terms. What is rare or pretentious in northern California could be common and unpretentious in the UK, or vice versa. As for "chesterfield", I understand that this term is in widespread use in Canada. Marco polo 13:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

And then there's davenport ... User:Zoe|(talk) 19:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

My family always called a small couch with only room for two a "love seat", but people have looked at me like I was insane whenever I used the term. And, of course, I am insane (or is that inane ?), but not for that reason. StuRat 03:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

In my north Wales farmhouse in the 60s, the relevant piece of furniture was "the settee", and we certainly weren't pretentious! -- Arwel (talk) 23:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The term "love seat" more often refers to a curious S-shaped 2-seater, with the sitters facing opposite directions (paradoxically). I've never heard of a standard 2-seater couch called a "love seat", although depending on what goes on there, it may well be an appropriate epithet. Thanks for acknowledging your insanity, Stu - but then, a truly insane person would probably be in deep denial. I think the usual description these days for one such as you is "troubled".  :) JackofOz 00:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"Linking L" in Brazilian Portuguese?

In a Brazilian dialect that vocalizes syllable-final /l/ to [w], what happens to word-final /l/ followed by a vowel? In a phrase like "Brasil é um pais...", would the /l/ of "Brasil" still be pronounced as [w], or would it be [l]? --Lazar Taxon 20:36, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Nobody? --Lazar Taxon 21:29, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Letter ending: yours

While writing a letter the other day, I started thinking: what does the closing phrase "yours," (which I'm guessing is a shortened and perhaps more informal version of "your truly," or "yours sincerely,") actually mean? It seems a very strange thing to write when I think about it, in a way implying either ownership or devotion... but since I'm not an English native speaker, I was hoping someone might be able to help me....? — QuantumEleven 21:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

See: Business letter particularly the "closing" section. You are guessing correctly, and "Yours truly" is an abbreviation for the more florid closings formerly used, such as "I remain, truly yours, etc." -THB 21:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, THB. However, I'm still a bit fuzzy on the actual meaning of "yours," (or, if you want, "I remain, yours truly,") - I guess I'm just curious as to the origins of this phrase. Does anyone have any ideas? — QuantumEleven 21:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Shortening of former phrases common in 18th century and earlier, such as "Your most humble servant", etc. AnonMoos 21:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

IIRC, it used to be standard that "Yours faithfully" was used with business letters and "Yours sincerely" with personal letters. It wouldn't surprise me if the shortening to "Yours" evolved from those circumstances when it was less clear-cut which of the two was more appropriate. Grutness...wha? 05:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dramatic vs. Theatrical qualities

What is the difference between dramatic qualities as opposed to theatrical qualities in the context of me attempting to analyse the last scene of "The Winter's Tale"? I cannot remember for the life of me and I'm getting all mixed up in my answer and my notes are due in tomorrow :S Thanks! Farosdaughter 22:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm no expert (and am unfamiliar with "The Winter's Tale") but I can offer an idea: theatrical may have to do with elements of staging the play; dramatic would include the tensions between characters, plot development, etc. Good luck! -- Deborahjay 03:57, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

December 13

Book Review

I would like to have someone to explain the steps on how to do a book review. Thanks.

The second External Link at the article Book review is a nice guide. -THB 00:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

IPA Starter

For someone who is a mature native English speaker who never took much interest (or found the need to) in pronunciation guides, what's the best way to start understanding what all those symbols mean? I've read the IPA article and I've seen lists and lists of how to pronounce each symbol, but they all seem very daunting and not 'user friendly', the reason I've avoided it in the 1st place. Is there a beginners guide, an IPA 101? Vespine

The minimum amount of IPA you need to know would probably be the set of symbols used to describe one language, such as English. I would start with IPA chart for English and Pronunciation respelling for English, which compares IPA with the system used in dictionaries you may be familiar with. Nohat 02:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Try these websites for a start:

• http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/chapter1.html
• http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/#

There's no need to memorize lots of them. If you bookmark the ucla chart, you can just reference it when you need to. Many have similar values to the corresponding English letters, and it's pretty obvious when they don't. Nevertheless, you might want to learn a few of the more prominent ones: like ʃ,ʒ,ʋ,ɘ,ɛ,ɑ,θ, to name about half the "common funny looking ones for English". If you remember just two or three a day, you'll have all you need in a week. I still don't know them all, and I've been in this business for years. Thing is, I don't know the ones I don't need to know. I can always look at and listen to that nifty ucla list! Thank god for Peter Ladefoged mnewmanqc 03:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. You only need to know a few for English, and you can always look them up when unsure. For example, searching for ɛ will lead you to ɛ which leads to open-mid front unrounded vowel, which links to an audio sample, . --Kjoonlee 04:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Synonym

Hi, What's another (preferably simpler) word for slating? It's usage is here:

The law defined the children of slaves as a type of indentured servant, while slating them for eventual freedom

Thanks.NinaEliza 04:30, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Listing? Marking? Scheduling? JackofOz 04:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you:)NinaEliza 04:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess it's important to note that the verb slate usually has the sense of schedule in American English, but the sense of criticize in British English. Nohat 04:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I used schedule, so that worked out. Thanks for the clarification.NinaEliza 06:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Unidentified Soup

In Stewie Griffin: The Untold Story, in the red-carpet scene at the beginning, Tricia Takanawa mentions some kind of soup while humping David Bowie's leg. In the commentary (beginning of scene 14), Alex Borstein says it's some unpleasant-tasting (possibly Asian) soup, the name of which sounds vaguely like 'fish-mao' or 'fish-bao', something like that. Anybody have any idea what it is? Black Carrot 06:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the subtitles, it's "fish bowel soup", which sounds vile. Proto::► 11:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Please help define Hindi/Sanskrit word

I read a word in, I believe, "Hinduism for Dummies" or "An Idiot's Guide to Hinduism"...the word is "Akriti".

The definition had to do with "love without origin". I loved what I read and would like to know if this is a real word and have an accurate definintion. I have not been able to find an occurrencew of this word anywhere else.

"Akriti" has become very symbolic for me and I would like to be using it accurately. I have a great deal of interest in and respect for Sanskrit and stumbled on "akriti" in my research of that language.

Please advise in any way possible.

I appreciate your help.

Cathy

<email address removed to protect poster from spammers>

On pages 27 and 28 of this document, "akriti" is defined to mean something like "inner form" or "essence" in Sanskrit. According to this source, the word does not refer (directly) to a kind of love. I myself, however, have no knowledge of Sanskrit and can't assess the accuracy of this source. Marco polo 16:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon agrees: AkRti (IAST ākṛti) means "a constituent part... form, figure, shape, appearance, aspect... a well-formed shape... kind, species... specimen..." —Keenan Pepper 19:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Cappelers dictionary (on the same project) agrees, and adds a definition of beauty, which is probably similar to the well-formed shape definition in the Monier Williams definition which the Cologne lexicon gives. Just if you're interested the word would be spelled आकृति and you can read our article Sanskrit that shows there is some variation on the pronunciation of the "r" sound. That character is ऋ and shows up as the small half loop form when connected to a consonant. So while, the dictionary definition doesn't really match the religious one you've given, but that doesn't mean it's wrong exactly, just an additional interpretation perhaps. - Taxman ^Talk 00:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Where is the Stremnaya Road, and what does "stremnaya" mean?

To the Wikipedia Volunteer Reference Staff:

A previous attempt to post this question failed. Hopefully, this will succeed.

I received an email from an in-law from South America that had an email attachment (*.ppt file) of what was purported to be the Stremnaya Road in Bolivia. This seemed an odd name for a road in South America, as it appears to be Russian. I have little knowledge of the Russian language, but know some Spanish, which it definitely has no association with. The pictures of the road are enough to make anyone with fear of heights cringe. Unfortunately, there was no link in the email I received of this Powerpoint presentation, but there are some blogs on the Internet regarding it. There seems to be wide disagreement on where the road is located. Some think it is in China, which would make more sense from its name. Others declare they have traveled it, and it is, in fact, in Bolivia. What would clinch where it is really located is a closeup of the license plates of the many trucks that travel it.

I did a Google search on "Stremnaya Road". The top hits are currently for web sites are claiming that the picture distributed under that name is in fact of the Guoliang Tunnel road in China. I know nothing about it myself. --Anonymous, December 13, 23:27 (UTC).

Later, I found my Russian-English dictionary. It's only a pocket dictionary, so the absence of a word doesn't mean anything, but these are the words that might be transliterated as starting with stre- (they all could also be rendered with strye-): strela, arrow; strelka, arrow, pointer, hand; strelba, shooting; stremitelny, impetuous; stremitsya, to aspire; stremitlenie, aspiration; stremya, stirrup. Just thought I'd mention it. --Anonymous, December 19, 06:12 (UTC).

Where is the Stremnaya Road? Is it in Bolivia? What does "stremnaya" mean?

To the Wikipedia Volunteer Reference Staff:

A previous attempt to post this question failed. Hopefully, this will succeed.

I received an email from an in-law from South America that had an email attachment (*.ppt file) of what was purported to be the Stremnaya Road in Bolivia. This seemed an odd name for a road in South America, as it appears to be Russian. I have little knowledge of the Russian language, but know some Spanish, which it definitely has no association with. The pictures of the road are enough to make anyone with fear of heights cringe. Unfortunately, there was no link in the email I received of this Powerpoint presentation, but there are some blogs on the Internet regarding it.

There seems to be wide disagreement on where the road is located. Some think it is in China, which would make more sense from its name. Others declare they have traveled it, and it is, in fact, in Bolivia. What would clinch where it is really located is a closeup of the license plates of the many trucks that travel it, and/or some of the people.

I did try to find reference to this in Wikipedia, but the feedback was nil.

I also tried to login under "a_ruminor", but was unsuccessful, so I created a new account using "Al Ruminor". The "A Ruminor" username was stated to be too close to the one I attempted to login under. I believe I posted something about a year ago under "a_ruminor" or "A Ruminor" concerning a Colombian airliner crash which took place around 1997, so at one time I did have an account. Please delete the other account if you can authorize that.

If you wish to contact me, my email is [removed for protection against spambots] I could reply with an attachment of the *.ppt file in response. Please do not provide my email address on Wikipedia and keep it private for this purpose alone.

Thanks for any help.

Best regards, Al Ruminor 23:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC) Aldous Ruminor

Well you should keep checking back with those blogs. This one was updated since you first posted, and it identifies the pics as The Guiliang Tunnel, check the last few entries of the blog for other links besides the one I posted. Is that sufficient? Anchoress 03:26, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's another good link: Mistery (sic) solved and another: results of google search on the dictionary definition of Stremnaya Anchoress 03:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, "stremnaya" is not exactly a Russian word. It may be a non-native's attempt at Russian. Or it may be something like Bulgarian (?? sounds suspiciously like Bolivia). The Russian female adjective for "steep, precipitous" is "stremninnaya". But why is a Russian, faux-Russian or Bulgarian word used for a road in China? JackofOz 00:30, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

To fill in more gaps, we have an article on the Yungas Road, the Bolivian "Road of Death" and "World's Most Dangerous Road", which looks nothing like the Chinese one pictured. But it's a very well known steep, dangerous, mountainous road, and I'd guess that Bolivia got attached to the road as being a location of a well-known dangerous road. --ByeByeBaby 05:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"stremnaya" is actually a Russian slang and it can be translated as "dangerous", "frightening" or possibly "strange" depending on the context.-- 71.202.148.40 07:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

December 14

Wikipedia tutorial on spotting/eliminating redundant words

Dear ref-desk experts, I know this page is in the Wikipedia somewhere, having visited it last week, but after half an hour's search today I can't seem to find it. Link please?

Many thanks, susato 02:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a: redundancy exercises I think that is what you are asking for.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 12:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Words to avoid, Avoid weasel words, Avoid peacock terms, or Avoid trite expressions? Then again, there's Embrace weasel words too.---Sluzzelin 12:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Birgitte§β that's it exactly - Thanks Sluzzelin, those links will be helpful as well. susato 13:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Parts of Speech

Please identify the underlined word as a noun, adjective, adverb, or etc.:

Holly's hope chest is made entirely of Oak.

My teacher says "Oak" in this sentence is an adjective, but I don't understand why. Is she right? I could have sworn it was a noun. Could someone explain to me why it is an adjective? Thanks for the help. --72.69.145.238 03:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Your teacher is wrong. "Oak" is a noun in that sentence. However, I think it would be an adjective if the sentence were "Holly's hope chest is oak." Am I right? --Maxamegalon2000 03:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

She briefly said that it was an adjective because it was describing the type of chest it was. "What kind of chest? An Oak chest!" This doesn't really seem right to me though, so I wanted some more opinions. Keep the responses coming! --72.69.145.238 03:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please realize that many stupid people do become teachers. Don't argue. Just know that you are right, but for the sake of your grades regurgitate back the lies she tells you. --Nelson Ricardo 05:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the other contributors, your teacher is wrong. "Oak" would have been an adjective if it had been used like this: "Holly's hope oak chest...", but in the sentence you gave us it is definitely a noun. My sentence, incidentally, fulfills the "What kind of chest? An Oak chest!" argument your teacher used. And I would respectfully disagree with Nelson Ricardo, I think you should argue with your teacher, present your case and don't give in so easily. Good luck! — QuantumEleven 11:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not an adjective in either case. In "Holly's hope chest is made entirely of oak," it's definitely a noun. You couldn't replace it with an adjective - "Holly's hope chest is made entirely of woody." In "It's an oak chest!" it's a noun adjunct - a noun which modifies another noun. I don't think there are any ways you can use the word "oak" that it isn't a noun. 13:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

...unless it was an oaken chest. That would be an adjective.--Shantavira 15:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Oaky is another - although usually only used with respect to flavor. Rmhermen 18:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, right, I meant that "oak" without any suffix can't be an adjective. FreplySpang 21:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I would argue that, while technically listed as noun adjuncts, "oak" and "chicken" in "oak chest" and "chicken soup" act adjectivally, and that noun adjuncts are a sub-set of adjectives. In this sentence, "oak" performs precisely the same function as "oaken", it's only the form that's different. JackofOz 00:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear 72.69.145.238,

As a teacher I'd say argue with your teacher if you feel you can without being punished. If you judge that your teacher is open minded and secure, then just copy the comments in this page and go for it. If not, keep it on the dl.

Now, here's the problem. Even linguists can argue about where adjectives end and nouns begin. In my book, since you can't have "very oak" or "oaker" in that position, then it is acting like a noun. Furthermore, "of" does not seem to take adjective complements, at least off the top of my head, I can't think of any (although someone may just add one below). More evidence to add to the "Oaky" or "oaken" evidence above. mnewmanqc 02:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd still say that while "oak" may have the form of a noun in "oak chest", it acts as an adjective. Q. What kind of chest is that? A. An oak chest. JackofOz 01:38, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear 72.69.145.238,

One easy way to tell what part of speech a word falls into is by using a "substitution test." While these are not 100% infallible, they will work most of the time. Try substituting another known adjective and see what you get, e.g. "Holly's chest was made entirely out of red" or "Holly's chest was made entirely out of fast." Terrible, right? Now use a known noun: "Holly's chest was made entirely out of rock" or "Holly's chest was made entirely out of steel." Much better. The problem here is that there is a restricted class of nouns that can be used: "car" or "dog" won't work, for instance... it must be something that an object can be made out of. However, finding another adjective that will fit here should prove something of a challenge. Another way is to use suffixes that can apply to adjectives (as a previous response mentioned): adjectives allow for comparison, for instance, so "oaker" and "oakest" ought to be possible if this were an adjective, just as "redder/-est" or "faster/-est" are possible. Vyasa Ozsvar 08:18, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Or

what does the French word "or" mean, not in the sense of gold.

but Sashafklein 05:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

That's English, they wanted to know about the French word. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

you should check out wordreference.com for single word translations. Sashafklein 05:56, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Also in Google, define: WORD -- Deborahjay 06:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Or even Wiktionary. --Diderot 07:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Or the French wiktionary, which actually gives the answer to the original question. The examples there suggest that it would be translated 'so' or 'since'. ==ColinFine 21:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

off of

Is "off of" considered correct English in the US? For example Their name comes from a track off of Syd Barrett's album "Barrett." --Auximines 11:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I consider it correct. Certainly it's something native speakers say all the time. I'd have used "on" in place of "off of" in this sentence though, but that is probably mostly a matter of personal style. --Diderot 12:39, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

We native speakers may say it all the time, but constructions accepted in informal spoken language aren't necessarily appropriate for use on paper. "Off of" may have originated as a parallel construction to the correct "out of". IMHO "off of" is not acceptable in a wikipedia article. In Auxmines' example above, "on" is a fine substitute. When "off of" is used to indicate removal of a physical object or information, as in "They broke branches off of a dead tree for firewood" or "You can copy the problems off of the blackboard", a good substitute would be "from".susato 13:11, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If you ban "off of", will you also ban "into", "out of", "out from under" (e.g "The cat came out from under the sofa.") etc. etc.? AnonMoos 13:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It would depend on context, but those are considered acceptable standard words/constructions. English prescriptive grammar doesn't have to be consistant. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 13:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course not; those examples are fine. The main reason I don't like "off of" is because "off" stands on its own. The "of" adds nothing. susato 18:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

What I really don't like are opposing juxtapositions, such as "she rode off on her bike" or "he went out in the rain", but these are perfectly correct grammatically speaking.--Shantavira 15:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

They don't oppose. In that sentence, "off" is an adverb, equivalent to "away". If you remove it, you're left with "She rode on her bike", which has a completely different meaning. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Off of" is technically okay, but is very ugly. Almost as bad as "should of" (which is both technically and aesthetically wrong) and "had had", which fills me with rage. Proto::► 16:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's acceptable English yes, but it's a bit awkward to say it, and thus to read it. If you can rephrase to avoid use of 'off off', then do so. :) Vranak 18:35, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. I asked because off of is never used in the UK. --Auximines 23:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It crops up the lyrics in Andy Williams's version of Can't Take My Eyes Off You, but not in the title.  sʟυмɢυм • т • c  23:18, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Proto, you may need anger management classes because "had had" is not only perfectly legitimate but in some contexts is absolutely necessary. JackofOz 00:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

'Had had' is technically legitimate, but it's never, ever necessary, and it's very ugly. Give an example where it's necessary. Proto::► 10:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"He had had no luck at the slots, so he moved on to the blackjack tables." --Diderot 14:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"He had no luck at the slots, so he moved on to the blackjack tables",

"Due to his lack of luck at the slots, he moved on to the blackjack tables",

"He moved on to the blackjack tables as there had been no luck for him at the slots",

"With no luck at the slots, he moved on to the blackjack tables", all of which have the same meaning and avoid the ugly repeated 'had'. The last one is lazy, and the third is ungainly, but 'had had' is my pet irrational (I know it's irrational) hate and by God if I can stretch a sentence to exclude it, I will.Proto::► 22:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The first two and the last don't mean the same thing as the "had had" construction. In a narrative, "he had no luck at the slots" might mean that he never has any luck at them. A "lack of luck" is equally atemporal. I want to indicate an immediate causal order to events within the narrative: he had, right then, been having no luck at the slots, and as an immediate consequence moved to another game.

The third sounds fishy and euphemistic to me. You've reordered the arguments of the phrase to produce an awkward sentence when simply using "had had" would have gotten the point right across. "There had been no luck for him at slots" is indirect, almost a passive sentence. Anglophone readers almost always prefer direct narrative where agents appear as subjects. This is the key fact about English that makes texts written in English by Dutch-speakers and Swedes such crap.

Everything in English can be said some other way, but I don't see a clearer, stylistically better way to say that sentence without losing some of the meaning. --Diderot 23:14, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

"Having had no luck at the slots, so he moved on to the blackjack tables." Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 12:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that would be "Having had no luck at the slots, he moved on ..." "So" is not proper.--Shuttlebug 18:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Note to self: read what you copy and paste before pressing "submit". Sam Korn ^(smoddy) 09:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

"John, where Bill had had "had", had had "had had"; "had had" had had the teacher's approval." , from List of homophonous phrases. Nohat 18:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

To argue that "had had" is never necessary is to argue that "had eaten" or "had gone" or "had <anything else>" is never necessary. JackofOz 05:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

"Off of" is primarily regional; it enjoys widespread usage in the middle of the United States. I'm not sure where its common usage ends, but I can't imagine a native English speaker being confused by it. (As far as "ugly" goes, it's nowhere near as unaesthetic as other common double prepositions from my region, such as "up under," meaning simply "under": "Get up under that table and see what's stuck on it.") In the example sentence, though, it could easily be replaced by the single preposition "from" (as previously mentioned)... so I'd advise doing that instead, and in all formal discourse. Vyasa Ozsvar 08:21 27 December 2006 (UTC)

tow, row

Hiya. We're trying to translate The British Grenadiers into German, and the question came up what With a tow, row, row, row, row, row, to the British Grenadiers might actually mean (since afaik Grenadieers hardly ever row). Is it purely nonsensical or is there some semantic value to it? --Janneman 15:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Onomatopeic drums or collective danse stumping feet ? -- DLL ^{.. T} 17:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I interpret this as musical filler. Sorry I know little of german, certainly not enough to make words up, but you really need something like a teutonic tra-la-la but with a vaguely nautical theme. meltBanana 19:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Definitely a "tra-la-la." I wouldn't try to find anything with a "nautical" theme: grenadiers weren't in the business of using oars. Vyasa Ozsvar 08:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Adum (Kumasi, Ghana)

I need to know how to prononunce Adum, an area (?) located in the city of Kumasi, Ghana. It would help to have this in IPA notation. Thanks! -- Deborahjay 16:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The most widely spoken language in Kumasi is Twi, and in that language the word adum would be pronounced simply [adum]. Of course, since Twi is a tonal language, what you really want to know is what tonal pattern this word has; I don't know that.

Adum is, by the way, a district of Kumasi and one of the older parts of the town. — mark ✎ 19:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

So if I'm interpreting the two vowels correctly (according to their internal links on the IPA page), the "a" is pronounced as in the English word "cart" and the "u" as in "boot"? The other question remains, if the syllable break simply comes between the first two letters, are the two syllables equally stressed, or does the accent fall upon the second? Sorry that I'm still not quite getting it...! -- Thanks, Deborahjay 04:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about the vowels. You're also right about the syllable boundary. Stress is a more difficult issue. Stress may have some correlate in Twi, but the tonal pattern of the word is far more salient to non-Twi hearers. Twi is a tonal language with two level tones (High and Low) and a downstep effect. Theoretically, the tonal pattern of our word could be any of the possible combination of High and Low (HH, HL, LL, LH). A High-Low word sounds to English ears as a word with the accent on the first syllable, and Low-High word (IPA [àdúm]) as a word with the accent on the second. Only a native speaker (or a good dictionary which marks tone) can answer the question which tonal pattern adum has in Twi. You could try asking at http://kasahorow.org/ , there are some Twi/Akan specialists there. — mark ✎ 08:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Brother's Wife

What is a brother's wife called in English

Sister-in-law?

Yes, which is also the word used for a wife's or husband's sister. User:Zoe|(talk) 06:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Once upon a time, in Spanish

Spanish fairy tales often begin with the phrase "Érase una vez", which I assume means "Once upon a time". I'm a bit puzzled by the first word, "Érase". It's not in my dictionary, and appears to be a reflexive use of the verb "ser". Is this correct? "Lavarse", "irse" etc are in my dictionary, but not "serse". If it indeed is a reflexive use of "ser", is it used in any other context, or any other tense? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 18:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Érase una vez... " o "érase que se era... ", son formas del verbo "ser", o mejor dicho serían del verbo pronominal "serse", pero este verbo de hecho no existe salvo estas 2 frases hechas, equivalentes al inglés "once upon a time". Skarioffszky 19:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Muchas gracias. I was wondering, could this construct be used in the future tense, "Se sera un dia, cuando ..."? Google gives some hits indicating that this indeed may be the case, but it is difficult for a non-native speaker to understand how the use of the reflexive pronoun is modifying the intended meaning of the sentence. Couldn't it just have been omitted, with no loss of meaning or clarity? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked a well-known Spanish linguist, who assures me that it is simply the reflexive in the archaic word order for that tense verb clitic. Se es is used to this day. Here's a citation from the Spanish writer, Javier Marías's, blog: [[4]] mnewmanqc 15:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much! --NorwegianBlue ^talk 10:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Indescribable

When people say 'it was indescribable' in places like books, surely saying that something is indecribable is a way of describing it? Herbynator 20:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Not really. If I told you that I'd just had "an indescribable experience", you would know nothing about it unless I went on to tell you more about it. Which of course means that it wasn't really indescribable after all. JackofOz 00:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It's kind of like how 0 describes nothing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Robovski (talk • contribs) 04:18, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

"Indescribable" is fine, as long as the author doesn't then proceed to describe it.... Generally, "indescribable" indicates a lack of sophistication or ability on the author's part. Anything can be described, even if only in the vaguest of terms, or through the use of metaphor. Vyasa Ozsvar 08:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Just how much of this IS the title?

Regarding this old work, how much of that is the title? Obviously everything up to "SPIRITS", but what about the rest of it? I'm trying to cite this work in an articel, and would like to know what the exact title is. Thanx. 68.39.174.238 21:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

It's generally considered legitimate to use an abbreviated title in a citation where it just runs on and on, and where the abbreviation is long enough to constitute a unique reference to the work. I'd cite it as "Tales of Conscience Concerning Evil Spirits" by Increase Mather and just stop there. --Diderot 22:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Our article on Increase Mather refers to it as Cases of Conscience Concerning Evil Spirits Personating Men. —Seqsea (talk) 00:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that there is nothing wrong with referring to this book by an abbreviated form of its title, its title most certainly is Cases of conscience concerning evil spirits personating men, witchcrafts, infallible proofs of guilt in such as are accused with that crime: All considered according to the Scriptures, history, experience, and the judgment of many learned men (I just cut and pasted that from what the Harvard library catalog entry for this edition reports as the title, with insignificant adjustments). I think it's informative & interesting to provide the full title. (Don't be misled by long s: it is Cases, not Tales.) Wareh 03:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

D'oh! --Diderot 08:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you wanted to cite it in its original language (Middle English?), or at least in the orthography used at the time (1693) how would you write the 'long s' in a Wikipedia article? I know you could just link to the picture, but I was just wondering. Carcharoth 10:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, here we go: Caſes of Conſcience concerning evil SPIRITS perſonating Men, Witchcrafts, infallible Proofs of Guilt in ſuch as are accuſed with that Crime: All Conſidered according to the Scriptures, Hiſtory, Experience, and the Judgment of many learned men. That suitable reproduces the emphasis and capitalisation of the original, though as reproducing the font and size is not possible, linking to the orignal picture is probably simplest. Also, I can't work out what the strange form of the capital 'C' is in the 'Caſes of Conſcience' bit. Carcharoth 11:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That 'C' – and the whole first line – is in basically the standard Textualis version of the blackletter.  --Lambiam^Talk 00:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanx all, and, for the record Seqsea, I wrote that articel and was asking because I'm trying to cite it by its full title at least once. I've tried to do so now, while also giving the most common short title. 68.39.174.238 06:19, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Carcharoth, the language is called Modern English. It's a good 200 years too late for Middle English. --ColinFine 21:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronounciation

How do you pronounce the Russian 'Yob t'voyu mat'? (Spelling is probably off.) Crisco 1492 23:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

If it's ёб тьвою мать then probably [jop tvoju matʲ]. Pretty much the way it's spelled. I'd watch out though, telling Russians that you f*cked their mother isn't the best thing to do when you're fop in Moscow. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 00:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The second word is твою, not тьвою. JackofOz 00:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Btw, all words in that sentence go back to Proto-Indo-European roots. Fun to think of some guy using that phrase thousands of years ago... ;) 惑乱 分からん 02:28, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, my transcription is for твою. I'm assuming, of course, that the first syllable in that word is stressed. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 08:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

No, the second syllable is stressed, tva-YU. But that has nothing to do with whether a soft sign (ь) should be there or not. The transliteration Yob t'voyu mat is incorrect, having an apostrophe after t where there is no soft sign in the original Russian spelling. JackofOz 05:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not stupid enough to use that phrase in a conversation. Only reason I ask is because I'm realing aloud Tom Clany's "Debt of Honour" to a friend so he understands proper English pronounciation (from the Canadian and American viewpoint.) I only want the proper pronounciation of that sentecne for the sake of being accurate. (I have no deathwish...) Thanks people. Crisco 1492 02:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if the second syllable is stressed, then it's [jop tvʌˈju matʲ]. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds about right. JackofOz 01:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

December 15

Hidden cultural references?

What do these two questions given in quick sucession mean? Showed up on a

1. Can you hold your beer?
2. Are you a man on a mission?

I can't make head or tail out of this one. Any hints? --HappyCamper 02:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Normally, as far as idioms go, to be able to "hold your beer" (or any other alcoholic beverage) is to be able to drink a significant volume of beer without suffering particularly ill effects, such as vomiting or passing out. Someone who can hold their beer will be one of the last ones left standing at the end of the night. A "man on a mission" is someone who is very strongly driven to complete a task of some sort; someone who is completely obsessed with completing some specific task they've set out to do. One other possible reference is the country music song "Hold My Beer" by Aaron Pritchett, which uses both phrases, although the holding of the beer is in the literal sense of physically keeping it in your hand. (While the singer steals your girlfriend, to be precise -- which is his mission, as it turns out.) Lyrics. --ByeByeBaby 05:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

My friend, you are awesome! Thanks so much - the Aaron Pritchett reference was exactly what I was looking for. --HappyCamper 16:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Latin to English Translation

I am trying to translate the latin phrase "per scientiam servitia". A few translations I have already gotten from other websites/programs are "through the knowledge the slaveries". I don't agree with that translation. I'm more apt to think the translation would be more along the lines of "Through the servitude of knowledge" or "knowledge by the means of servitude". Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

68.1.114.221 02:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The most generous case that can be made for this as meaningful Latin is "servants through knowledge." What is inarguable is that it means "[plural of servitium] through knowledge"; see further the lexicon entry for servitium, which includes the somewhat uncommon translation I'm suggesting. Wareh 03:53, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You're going the extra mile to be generous Wareh, but maybe it's better just to say that this is gibberish - surely it would convey no meaning to a native Latin speaker if such a one could be reincarnated? Context might be helpful, if the original questioner could let us know where he/she came across the phrase. It looks like one of those fumbled attempts by non-Latinists to come up with an impressive motto. You can see lots more on similar lines by Googling 'per scientiam'. Maid Marion 13:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that it is an attempt to render "service through science" in Latin. Marco polo 14:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree - but it does it very badly. Robovski 04:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it gives the impression of trying to use servitia as a first-declension noun & is most probably just bad Latin. Wareh 03:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves

What is the message that is being sent in this book? I don't quite get it.

This should probably go on the Humanities Desk, but to get you started, have you read the article on Ali Baba and the Forty Thieves? Anchoress 03:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Message? What need for a message? It's just an entertaining story, with no didactic purpose unlike, say, Aesop's Fables. It is just another tale for Scheherazade to wile away those long Arabian nights. The little man sometimes wins out against the odds, which is, I suppose, the main comfort to be taken. Clio the Muse 09:25, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

This reminds me of the famous quote attributed to Samuel Goldwyn: "Pictures are for entertainment, messages should be delivered by Western Union". (According to wikiquote, though I've also heard it worded differently). ---Sluzzelin 10:52, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The first thing that saved Ali Baba was his lack of greediness. The second was his trust in the abilities and loyalty of someone who most people would write-off. So I think the main lesson is economic -take only what you need and care for the people around you; and ancillary ones are critiques of the social hierarchy (the cleverest one was a slave girl), and the importance of positive interpersonal relationships.

I respectfully disagree with Clio and Sluz. Every story has a message, often several. That many storytellers don't take this into account only means that they're in less control of which messages they're conveying through the stories they choose to tell. -LambaJan 14:56, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The Tiger and the Hare

What is the sacrifice of the animals in this story?

This question should probably be on the Humanities Desk, but anyways... we don't seem to have an article on that particular fable, but you can check some of the google results I found. Anchoress 04:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Se questo è un uomo

This an odd question, but I was wondering why the American version of Se questo è un uomo was released as Survival in Auschwitz? I originally purchased the book in Australia as If This Is a Man, and have only recently been able to find it in the states once I figured out the other title. Any thoughts? --Cody.Pope 03:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

They probably thought it was a catchier title. Personally, I think it's way worse... 惑乱 分からん 04:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Either that ("Auschwitz" being a shocking word that sells) or maybe there's a copyright issue involved. For what it's worth, the Dutch, German and Portuguese versions of the title are close to the original, but seem to be in the form of the question Is This a Man? or perhaps Is This a Human? (Is dit een mens, Ist das ein Mensch, É isso um homem?). The Spanish and French versions are verbatim translations of the original Italian title. ---Sluzzelin 07:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The English language version that I read, published by Penguin Books in the UK, was also correctly titled If this is a Man. I have to agree that the use of Auschwitz in the title was most likely for cynical marketing purposes. I cannot imagine that Levi would have agreed to this change. Death camps sell as entertainment, a thought both sobering and tragic. Clio the Muse 09:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it doesn't seem to be a legal issue, since it was previously published in the U.S. with the right title (If this is a man. Translated from the Italian by Stuart Woolf. New York: Orion Press, 1959.) Wareh 03:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

To Indent or Not to Indent

I was just wondering if anyone around here knew the answer to this question:

Should the very first paragraph of a typed publication have its very first line indented?

Specifically, I am refering to works such as essays, research papers, and other documents found in scholarly academia. But in its broadest sense, the question includes any substantial, significant composition or product of writiing ever typed on a computer keyboard or typewriter perhaps. My query is, of course, subject to any amount of debate or any number of disputes, but I welcome anyone to tell me whatever anyone may know. Please explain anything I may have missed or spell out the different views of the topic. Oh, and tell me if I should move this to the Computing Reference Desk instead or as well. Thanks a million, guys.

--DrZeus 05:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I asked this very question a while ago. The consensus seemed to be that the first line should not be indented, because the only purpose of a paragraph indent is to indicate the beginning of a new paragraph, and there obviously isn't the need for that signal with the first paragraph. BTW, the humanities or misc ref desks would probably have been better for this query. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I just didn't want as much attention. But anyway, you are right. Got that. But recently I've been hearing that many, maybe unprofessional writers, especially Americans, have been raised thinking that the first paragraph is always indented. Is there any way that you can prove your claim in detail? I mean, I have some opposition here. How should you indent, anyway? --DrZeus 07:10, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no hard and fast rule. Many universities and other institutions have their own house rules on this sort of thing, but there is no global standard. Publishers much prefer a blank line between paragraphs of a manuscript rather than an indent.--Shantavira 09:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I would say it's up to the professor, publisher, journal, whatever that you are submitting it to. Some publishers have their own style rules, others refer to standard style manuals like the MLA Style Manual or Chicago Manual of Style. I've never submitted to a journal myself, but I believe that they issue guidelines for submissions that make this clear. If this is something you're turning in to a professor, you could ask what style they prefer. But there's nothing "provable" here. FreplySpang 14:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I was educated in the USA, and I was taught to indent the first paragraph. My wife, educated in the UK, says that this is wrong. Best bet is to get a style guide if one is available. I'd say that this is a matter of preferred style as opposed to who is "right". Robovski 04:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Go to a library. Select some books published before the advent of computer typesetting (say from before 1970) that look like some care has been given to their typography. Check how the first paragraph of each chapter is handled. You'll see that in most cases (but not all) it is not indented. You may see some other conventions that have fallen into disuse.  --Lambiam^Talk 01:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

PATIENT - SHE or HE

I have read in a Psychiatry Text book the following sentences, where "patient" means both sexes: -The "patient" believes that "he" has special powers. -Sometimes the person has a complex system of delusions involving both a wide range of persecutions and a belief that there is a well-designed conspiracy behind them: for example, that the "patient's" house is bugged and that "she" is being followed.

I am in doubt if the masculine & feminine forms of the pronoun can be used indistinctly or if only one of them is correct. would someone tell me please—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.62.97 (talk • contribs)

"He" is now considered rather old fashioned, as some people consider it sexist. It is better to say "he or she". You can also use "they". Some people consider "they" incorrect to refer to a single person, but this usage dates back to the sixteenth century. Alternatively, these sentences can often be rephrased to avoid the problem. Please don't keep repeating your question.--Shantavira 09:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

• Some people simply use "she" all the time. I'm of the opinion you can use either he or she as long as you note it can refer to both sexes. Singular they can also be an alternative in some cases. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:50, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Using the singular pronoun changes the emphasis slightly, making it sound more personal. mnewmanqc 16:01, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

If you use he, people will think you're sexist. If you use she, people will think you're trying so hard not to be sexist and accuse you of positive discrimination. If you use they, people will question your grammar. You can't really win. Generally it's a good idea just to alternate between he and she (though not for the same person of course!)

Sanskrit

I would like to see the Sanskrit word, dvandva, as it appears in its own language. Can you display the Sanskrit alphabet?--Jelizbeth 17:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no "Sanskrit alphabet". The script (not an alphabet, but an abugida) most commonly associated with Sanskrit is Devanāgarī, but that is a relatively modern invention and did not exist in the time of Vedic and Classical Sanskrit. For example, Pāṇini, assuming he used writing at all, would have written in the Brāhmī script, which looks nothing like Devanāgarī. (Earlier on the reference desk I embarrassed myself by getting all this wrong and acting like I knew what I was talking about.)

That said, the word dvaṃdva (IAST), meaning "pair", looks like this in Devanāgarī: द्वंद्व (I can render that into an image if you don't have a proper font for it. It should look like two characters, not four.) —Keenan Pepper 20:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The word I'm looking for means, loosely translated, all things being equal. Literally, two things joined into one like bittersweet. Could you render the image, please? I'm considering it as artwork for a brochure.

The word dvaṃdva in Devanāgarī

I think we're talking about the same word, you're just using a poetic meaning. Here is a rendering as a transparent PNG in the font Kalimati. Seems pretty simple, but someone more knowledgeable should probably make sure I didn't screw it up. —Keenan Pepper 19:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Swedish word

The word ehn appears to be a name or a title, I'm not sure which. Do you know what the word means in English?--Jelizbeth 17:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh, "ehn" surely isn't a Swedish word, name or title. It doesn't even follow Swedish phonotactics. Perhaps I could help you if you give the contextand further details. 惑乱 分からん 20:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I concur, I know no such word. I'm wondering if you are hearing the last syllable of a Swedish name such as Hugo Alfvén as a separate word? --ColinFine 22:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

In Dutch, "een" (you might spell the pronounciation "ehn") is an article meaning "a" (as in "a house") or "one". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ibn Battuta (talk • contribs) 08:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

Well, if it's assumed the word is misspelled, it could be the Swedish word "en" (generally short e) meaning the non-neuter gender article a/an / one, alternately with a long e, (a sound absent from native English), it'd mean juniper tree. That's the only common words in Swedish that sound similar. (Also, there are several personal pronouns looking similar to h?n*. he/she/him/her) 惑乱 分からん 16:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your many replies. The name/surename or word EHN comes from my personal geneaology as follows: Jonas Petterson Ehn b. 1793, his son Carl Jonsson Ehn, b. 10 March 1815, his daughter Matilda Maris Ehn b. 03 July 1851. Matilda came to America where her name Ehn must have been pronounced " Ain" as this is how it appears on her wedding certificate. Her brother Carl who also came to Iowa was called Ehn for a while but latter it appears as "Ain".

That seems to imply that Ehn is a surname. Some surnames mean something (Turner, Chandler, Wheelwright, etc), but most are just names that have no inherent meaning. JackofOz 04:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess it could be a surname, though not a particularly common one, also, it seems to have attained a German-like spelling here (where h is used to denote a long vowel), possibly because it looked fancier. "Juniper" might well be possible. I think most of these modern family names in Sweden actually appeared due to Sweden's military expansion, where the generals needed a way to distinguish between all former peasants Oskar's, Nils', Karl's and Johan's etc. in the army. They came from small villages where a family name hadn't been necessary. 惑乱 分からん 23:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

In looking at Parish records from the Latter Day Saints from the mid 1700's on there were few if any naming pattern that was not in the patronymic form. This of course extended to both the male and female children in a family group.

antique markings

I have recently aquired a wooden antique chest (probaly from europe) with two small symbols followed by the date 1694. The two symbols that precede the 1694 are approximatley 3/4 the size of the date. The first character looks like the roman numeral 1 with a faint triangle at the top and bottom (apex pointing to the middle of the character) and there is a horizontal dash(-) in the middle. The second character looks like an upside down symbol for the greek letter pi. I have poured through pages of latin letters,abbreviations, numerals,etc. and have not found an answer. I would like to draw the symbols for you but I can't with this modern keyboard. I woul apprreciate any help. THANKS!--72.24.49.253 17:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Here is the symbol PI ("π"), although I prefer a much curvier version. Obviously, I can't turn it upside down here, though. Isn't the Roman numeral 1 just the capital letter "I" ? Does it have bars on the top and bottom (I) ? StuRat 19:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The first character sounds like sme sort of measure symbol - perhaps indicating height, the second therfore might be a measure of capacity.. I say this because I've heard that old cannons appear to have a date on eg 1650 when in fact this number is the weight in pounds.. is it possible that 1694 refers to the dimensions then - perhaps 16 inches high?87.102.3.159 23:08, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I have two suggestions that probably won't help. One is, if you want to browse through still more pages of characters, you could check out the Unicode code charts. Each link from that table goes to a PDF document showing a group of related characters. Second idea, photograph the symbols digitally put the image on the Web somewhere (or upload it to Wikipedia temporarily, but you have to register to do that), and post a link to the image back here. Then at least it will be clear exactly what you mean. --Anonymous, December 16, 03:45 (UTC)

Or much easier: Simply draw the characters in OpenOffice Writer, Microsoft Word, some graphics program, or whatever you have available. And yet easier: "Draw" right here: e.g.

 XXXXX
  XXX
   X......V
   X     /
   X----/
   Xooo
   X     o_
  XXX      Y
 XXXXX

(tip: use "& n b s p ;" (without the blank spaces in-between) for every single space you want to insert. An alternative would be something like "."; and put a <br> at the end of each line. You may want to use "show preview" instead of "save page" first to check whether your design really looks as you want it... --Ibn Battuta 08:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

PATIENT - SHE or HE?

I have read in a Psychiatry Text Book the following sentences and am in doubt with regards to the pronouns used. Could it be just Psychiatry Terminology or in general "She" or "He" ca be used indistinctly for "Patient" (meaning both sexes as is the case now)?

- The "Patient" believes that "he" has special powers.

- Sometimes the person has has a comples system of delusions involving both a wide range of persecution and a belief that there is a well designed conspiracy behind "them"*: for example, that the "Patient's" house is bugged and that she is being followed.

• another question: shouldn't it be also "her" or "him" or any of them can be used?

Please, could anybody clarify everything to me? Thanks

It's always tricky using pronouns when you are talking about a person of unknown gender. "They" doesn't work in all cases, and "he/she" or "(s)he" is quite awkward, so many people just pick a gender and talk as if the person is of that gender. If most patients are male, they pick male, if most are female, they pick female. StuRat 19:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with StuRat. You will sometimes find, in the introduction of a book, a note which says something to the effect of "the author has used "he" throughout this book, but that does not mean anything does not apply to women as well". English does not have a gender-neutral pronoun which is easily used, so most authors pick one or the other and stick with it when the gender of the person being discussed is unclear or undefined. — QuantumEleven 10:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Journalism stylebooks recommend recasting the sentence to avoid gender-specific pronouns, if possible. (Of course, it isn't always possible!) Thus, instead of saying The patient believes that he has special powers, say Patients sometimes believe they have special powers. — Michael J 16:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Or just avoid the pronoun in the first place, i.e. A common belief is that patients have special powers. On second thought, Michael J 's version sounds better. Foxjwill 07:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

third son and sixth?

What does mean "the third son and sixth of nine children"? Why not just "third son of nine children"?

Bidder, George Parker (1806–1878), civil engineer, was born on 13 June 1806 in Moretonhampstead, Devon, the third son and sixth of nine children of William Bidder (1768–1844), a stonemason, and his wife, Elizabeth, née Parker (1769–1844). 128.36.56.209 18:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It means he had three older sisters.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 18:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It means he was the 3rd male child of 9 children and was also the 6th child of 9 children. So, yes, we could conclude that he has 3 older sisters, 2 older brothers, and 3 younger siblings of indeterminate gender. StuRat 19:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

..So the original wording would seem to be the most efficient way of saying that, even though the reader might have to think about it for a moment.--Shantavira 13:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

translation

I bought a shower curtain that says "ooh la la". What language is it and what does that mean?

Originally French, but borrowed into several other languages including English. I think it's strange that you haven't heard it before, but it means something like "Oh, yeah", "Wow!" "Sweet!" or similar... Is the shower curtain transparent, because it probably has sexual undertones? 惑乱 分からん 20:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

You have a talking shower curtain? Wow. What'll they think of next!  :) JackofOz 05:32, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I heard they were going to come out with a singing one but focus groups didn't think getting shown-up by a shower curtain was a good way to start the day. -LambaJan 15:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Spacing in abbreviations

When typesetting abbreviations, I tend to set a thin space between in the middle of abbreviations as "i.e." or "e.g.". In LaTeX, I would write "foo ,i.\,e., bar". I have notices that other people either set no space at all or a standard inter-word spacing (a hard one). Is there a standard style recommendation? Simon A. 21:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe that no space is more standard. StuRat 06:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

No space is standard, but when typesetting a string of upper case letters, it is normal to increase the letter spacing slightly. (If you are using a "small cap" font to do this, you may find some additional spacing is already built into the font settings.) Also you may find when using camel case that a combination such as aT is not recognized as a kerning pair. In that case you might actually want to reduce the spacing slightly.--Shantavira 13:41, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

December 16

Concurrent education

What is it? I read five definitions for "concurrent", none of them made sense. One of my friends is at University for "concurrent education". -- Zanimum 01:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to see the context to know for sure, but can take a guess. For students who lack skills in the local language, one approach is to first concentrate on teaching them the local language, then move on to general subjects. The alternative, which may be called "concurrent education", is to teach them the new language at the same time they are taught general subjects. StuRat 06:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

At this Queen's Universty page you will see the terms concurrent and consecutive being used to describe the situation where two courses are being taken together (concurrent), or one is being taken in sequence after the other (consecutive). It seems to be a term used mainly in Canada, as in the Wikipedia article Double degree: "In Canada, many teacher candidates study simultaneously for a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Education. These are known as "concurrent-education" programs." --Seejyb 14:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard it used in an educational setting, but I hear it frequently in connection with criminal sentences. For example, if someone is found guilty of two charges (say, robbery and assault), there will be two sentences. Sometimes the sentences will run consecutively, or one after the other, while at other times they will run concurrently, or at the same time. — Michael J 16:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

At the junior college near me, high school students may take one or two courses while continuing to attend their regular classes at the high school. This is called concurrent enrollment. --Shuttlebug 18:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Unknown language, unknown meaning.

I bought a cheap pocketwatch recently that has a knight on a horse cantering over a coat of arms. Around the knight are written two words: "Monoarcprocon Foepelctrai". The "saying" is separated into the two given words, with no spacing in between the letters in a word. Any idea what language it is and what it means? Niffleheim 02:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It looks strange. Could it be Celtic? 惑乱 分からん 02:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's Latin, but of the sort used in inscriptions (very abbreviated and run together). Procon -> proconsul; Foe => foedus (league); Trai -> Trajan, etc (just possibilities). A picture of the inscription and arms might help. - Nunh-huh 02:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

On the web I found a (not very readable) image. The reading order is more likely "FOEPELCTRAI MONOARCPROCON". Not that this makes more sense to me. All together it does not have a Latin feel; surely foedus, root foeder-, would have been abbreviated "FOED", and the "AI" ending is un-Latin. "Mono-" is very much a Greek prefix. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lambiam (talk • contribs) 10:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

I don't have an answer but this might be a clue toward an answer for someone with antique books. Two different websites are selling antique watches by "Louis Jordan," a Frenchman, with that insciption (and no specific information on the subject at hand). The watch you have likely copies these antiques. Find an entry for him in a paper text, and maybe you find the origin.--Fuhghettaboutit 14:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

An idea? Could it be written in Greek alphabet, or something? =S 惑乱 分からん 17:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The alphabet is clearly the standard Latin alphabet. The "F", "L", "N", and "R" shapes are typically Latin.  --Lambiam^Talk 00:34, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

This was printed in a Turkish Newspaper

A photo caption began like this: Gorgu Taniklan...... Can you give any idea what they are saying? I am crious as my name is Gorgus, would there be any releationship?

Thank you for your assistance.

William Gorgus

Hi, William Gorgus. It might be Görgü tanıklarının meaning weaknesses in English. Sorry, this is original research (Turkish co-worker), and I can't link it to any reference. I hope someone else can. ---Sluzzelin 09:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Something was lost in translation. Görgü tanığı means "eye witness". The plural is görgü tanıkları. Görgü tanıklarının is the genitive case of the plural: "of (the) eye witnesses", which is possible given the caption fragment, but there is no specific reason to assume this or any other case. Görgü by itself means "(direct) experience", and tanık means "witness".  --Lambiam^Talk 09:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

lol, thanks. ---Sluzzelin 09:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

origin of the word yahoo.

I would like to know the origin of the word, Yahoo. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kulot77 (talk • contribs) 10:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

According to Wiktionary, yahoo was created by Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels. See also the short article on Yahoo (literature). ---Sluzzelin 10:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it pronounced with the stress on the first or second syllable? --NorwegianBlue ^talk 10:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

First in noun, second in interjection --87.74.20.175 12:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:49, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The ease with which required information can be found.

Over at TenOfAllTrade's RD Thoughts I have written out my ideas on using RD questions as mini-polls on possible improvements of articles. One of the phrases I use is: "we can improve the format, "findability" and linking of existing knowledge". By "findability" is meant an object's quality of being able to be found - high = easy to find, low = difficult. While it is not an accepted word, the meaning in context is hopefully clear. What would be the alternatives? A single word? A phrase? Is the idea expressed in different words in guidelines somewhere? I ask because this quality would clearly be desirable for information in Wikipedia, e.g. used in a review of an article: "This article has all the information we could wish for, but the findability is too low for a feature article. More suitable links should be added." -Seejyb 14:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest moving this to the talk page, since it isn't a question, but rather a commentary on how the Reference Desk and Wikipedia, in general, work. StuRat 15:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't he/she/it asking for a better word or phrase that means "findability"?87.102.4.180 16:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You may be right, I took those to be rhetorical questions. StuRat 17:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Build the Web! Wikipedia:Build the web. I can't think of a better phrase than 'findabilty' but 'connect orphaned nodes', 'this article does not link to relevent pages' may be useful. There are also "Category:Orphaned articles" and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Lonelypages87.102.4.180 18:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

How about "improve incoming links"..87.102.4.180 18:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you adam and eve it findability meltBanana 23:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Is tehre a wikipedai spellign bot?

When I enter the word recieve in the search field on the left I get 8045 hits. A very few are redirects for article titles, but can somebody run a bot to fix all the other cases please, please? (That means that 3.8 % is wrong!) Thanks. JohJak2 16:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And also, there are 1713 occasions (6.7 % wrong) of percieve. JohJak2 16:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

While I am at it: 1415 occasions (1.5 % wrong) of acheive. JohJak2 16:52, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And on to: 3892 (1.1 % wrong) of beleive. JohJak2 16:56, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And then: 51 (1.9 % wrong) of reciept. JohJak2 17:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)fixed

Spell-checking bots are of limited usefulness and can creat havoc, e.g. with proper names and URLs, so they are discouraged. See Wikipedia:Bot policy#Spell-checking bots. And bear in mind that there are infinitely more possible spelling errors than there are words in the English language. Common spelling errors are searched for on a regular basis, but this requires human intervention.--Shantavira 20:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Frere Jacques in Dutch and other languages

At Alternative lyrics to Frère Jacques and Translations of Frère Jacques we are collecting many translations of the song Frère Jacques in different languages. I have found a second version of the song Frère Jacques in Dutch at [5] but I cannot transcribe it to get the written version. can anyone help me?

• also we have versions and partial versions in many other languages. Anyone who can help us would be most appreciated.--Filll 17:24, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I am a Fleming and thus a native speaker. A subtle difference between Flemish and the standard Dutch is the use of the "ge" form instead of the "je"form. Now this is the Flemish version [6]. Here, on this page [7], you can find a "standard Dutch" version under "Vader Jacob" ("Hollands" could be described as standard Dutch). Now there is one thing I must point out : that girl Yousra seems to be singing neither of them. She sings "Broertje Jacob, broertje Jacob, slaap je nog, slaap je nog" and then something not very comprehensible. On top of that, the lyrics you are providing there

"Vader Jakob, Vader Jakob,

Slaapt gij nog? Slaapt gij nog?

Alle klokken luiden, Alle klokken luiden,

Bim bam bom, Bim bam bom."

do not match up with any of the two versions I just linked to, nor does it match up with what she is singing.Evilbu 00:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

there are a couple of translations over at de:Frère Jacques. --84.188.214.151 00:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The first version under "Dutch" on the Wikipedia page is the same as the text below "hollandais" at the French page. The version with "Slaapt gij nog?" has many more hits than any other version (including the one with "Slaap jij nog?"), also when restricted to pages from The Netherlands (domain .nl). I think this is a traditional version in somewhat old-fashioned Dutch.  --Lambiam^Talk 00:30, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

go in for sports

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Runglish#go_in_for_sports

Here I asked a question but nobody answered, so I repeat it here:

Is it really incorrect to say "to go in for sports" (meaning smth. like to do sports regularly) in English?

Is "to do sports" more preferrable?

Is it different in British and American English?

Are other uses appropriate? Like "to go in for teaching, dancing, singing".

Thanks. --Anthony Ivanoff 18:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I would interpret "go in for" as doing something with ambitions and high levels of intensity. 惑乱 分からん 19:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

My SOED says: "adopt as an object, pursuit, interest, style, or principle". I think it's less common in American English, but not unknown. —Keenan Pepper 19:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

To me it sounds like slightly-archaic British, but I don't know how it would sound to a British person. Dickens was already using it sarcastically in Hard Times:

[Jem's brother] said one day, "Jem, there's a good opening among the hard Fact fellows, and they want men. I wonder you don't go in for statistics." Jem, rather taken by the novelty of the idea, and very hard up for a change, was as ready to "go in" for statistics as for anything else. So, he went in. He coached himself up with a blue-book[...]

There he found Mr. James Harthouse looking out of window, in a state of mind so disconsolate, that he was already half-disposed to "go in" for something else.

AnonMoos 19:20, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Song in unknown language

When I was a kid, we sang a song in school which was in another language. I don't know why, but I have the feeling it might be Turkish. It might be a love song (there were separate girl's parts and boys parts). I'm wondering if anyone can give me any information (correct/complete lyrics, what language, what it means, etc) based on what I remember of the lyrics phonetically:

Ham-si de-coy-dem ta ta ta va-ya

Ham-si de-coy-dem ta ta ta va-ya

si-jer-ah de ki ki

ha ha ha ha ha ha

ha ha ha ha ha ha

ta ta ta va-ya

Thanks. Ingrid 19:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It is a Turkish türkü (folk song) from the Black Sea area. Here is (one version of) the lyrics:

Hamsi koydum tavaya

Başladı oynamaya

Kalktım baktım hamsi yok

Başladım ağlamaya

Translation:

I put the anchovies in the frying pan

They started to play

I got up and looked: no anchovies

I started to cry

(I can't place the line si-jer-ah de ki ki. This must be from a different version, but I don't recognize it as plausible Turkish.)

 --Lambiam^Talk 23:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I could easily be misremembering it (I was probably about 10 the last time I sang it). Also, it probably went through several copyings from the last time anyone who spoke Turkish saw it. Do you know any more of the lyrics? I tried a google search with the corrected lyrics, but all the pages were in Turkish, so I can't figure them out. Ingrid 00:32, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

With some Googling I found many versions, some of which have a second line that apparently corresponds to your second and third lines. That second line goes like this:

Sıçradı gitti havaya

which means: "They jumped and disappeared into the air". The various versions have large variations but all are rather short and seem to have one thing in common: there will be no fried anchovies for dinner. If I can find the time I may have more after the weekend.  --Lambiam^Talk 01:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

December 17

orient vs. orientate

Is 'orientate' and 'orientated' the English word and orient and oriented American?