Talk:January 6 United States Capitol attack

Police officer deaths

Should the officers who killed themselves afterwards be counted as deaths due to the riot? Elliottharvickfan94 (talk) 21:05, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I believe the general consensus from past discussions was that unless/until reliable sources directly connect the cause of suicide to their participation in the day's events, they shouldn't. Wikipedia will not speculate as to anything - even less so the reason for someone's suicide. Temporal correlation is not causation and does not mean a connection. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:54, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2021

I would like to add the Traditionalist Worker Party to parties to the civil conflict. On the Pro-Trump side. GeorgeMemeulous (talk) 13:16, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. WikiVirusC^(talk) 13:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Sicknick Death & Disinformation

Just saw the news that Sicknick's death has finally been revealed - death by natural causes due to a stroke. Yes he was pepper sprayed, but this doesn't appear to have been a factor - no allergic reaction to chemical irritants was discovered during the autopsy. Thus I'd suggest the section on his death be tweaked to make clear it was death due to natural causes - the section currently appears to imply it was death due to pepper spray triggering a stroke, which is not true. Further down I believe the disinformation section should be updated to reflect the fact that the media long claimed Sicknick was bashed to death with a fire extinguisher. While it has long been known this was untrue - no signs of physical trauma, it is only now that we know the actual cause. 人族 (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

With this new information, the info box should be corrected. Or with a notation "originally attributed to the incident, later attributed to natural causes" in the info box. Such info should not be hidden in a footnote because that would be misleading.

Or delete his name or police officer in the infobox but still keep it in the article.Inkfo (talk) 01:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The fact that he died of a stroke doesn't make his death unrelated to the storming of the capitol. From here, though almost all sources quote it: "All that transpired played a role in his condition," Diaz told the newspaper. Similarly, the Washington Post cites that quote and says: Diaz’s ruling does not mean Sicknick was not assaulted or that the violent events at the Capitol did not contribute to his death. The medical examiner noted Sicknick was among the officers who engaged the mob and said “all that transpired played a role in his condition.” Likewise, The Hill quotes the medical examiner's report as saying that The medical examiner's office said in its report that "an unprecedented incident of civil insurrection at the United States Capitol resulted in the deaths of five individuals." So on its own this isn't enough to remove him from the infobox, though of course the details should be noted in the article. --Aquillion (talk) 02:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Come on. This double negative from the cited source—"does not mean Sicknick was not assaulted or that the violent events at the Capitol did not contribute to his death"—obviously doesn't mean that the events did contribute. The fact that he died after the riot, of apparently unrelated and entirely "natural" causes, means his death ought to be either excluded from any "count" of deaths at or caused by the riots, since neither applies to him. Are we including anyone as a "death" in this article who died after the riot—and for how long? A week? A month? The fact that the media blew the story for months doesn't mean he now ought to remain in a death total—if the information known today was known the day after the riot, he never would have been included in the infobox in the first place, and of course it's enough to take him out. The medical examiner's report is a primary source—The Hill quotes it, but neither endorses it nor concludes it's correct. At this point, the most obvious relevance of Sicknick's death to our article subject is that, after months of media insisting he was killed by the riot, he wasn't—and died of natural causes. We of course should include that there was an enormous amount of media speculation that turned out to be spectacularly wrong—and leave any further speculation and innuendo out, please. Elle Kpyros (talk) 02:26, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Aquillion: The AP reports that the determination of a natural cause of death means the medical examiner found that a medical condition alone caused his death — it was not brought on by an injury. CBS reports that Diaz said the autopsy found no evidence of internal or external injuries, or of an allergic reaction to the chemical substance, that The "natural" classification is used "when a disease alone causes death," the medical examiner's office said in the summary. "If death is hastened by an injury, the manner of death is not considered natural", and that the medical examiner acknowledged that all that transpired [during the riot] played a role in his condition. NBC's Washington D.C. affiliate reports that D.C.'s Office of the Chief Medical Examiner said Monday that Sicknick's cause of death was "acute brainstem and cerebellar infarcts due to acute basilar artery thrombosis," and the manner of death was "natural," not a homicide. He probably shouldn't be listed as someone who was a casualty based off of this—medical examiner reports are likely more reliable than general speculation by mainstream press on the cause of death—though I think that referring to the reporting on his death being possibly homicide as "disinformation" also isn't reflective of the situation—agencies were generally reporting based off of the information that they had at the time. Reporting has changed as the facts on the ground have developed, though, and I think that we should update the article to reflect more recent reporting. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:41, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

What about Benjamin Philips? He apparently died in the morning four hours before the riot began, why is he included as a fatality in the storming event? Yodabyte (talk) 06:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Mikehawk10:, it doesn't matter where the media sourced the info from if it was so categorically wrong. Note too that Democrats also referred to the Sicknick bashing as part of their impeachment efforts. Except Sicknick wasn't bashed. Thus the media and Democrat efforts to claim otherwise - whether through malicious intent or naked incompetence really doesn't matter. It was disinformation peddled for weeks on end! And why has it taken 3.5 months for the truth to come out when the autopsy was done something like 2.5 months ago? 人族 (talk) 06:41, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

• medical examiner reports are likely more reliable than general speculation by mainstream press on the cause of death. This would be true if they contradict, but they do not. The medical examiner's report specifically and unambiguously goes out of its way to decline to state that his death was unrelated to the events the prior day. Therefore, the other sources remain the best available sources on whether it was connected, and it must continue to be listed in the infobox. Furthermore, the medical examiner's report specifically and unambiguously says that five people died as a result of the storming of the capitol, so using it as an argument to change the number to four is a direct misuse of the source. These are not points of speculation - they are what the medical examiner's report itself says. Of course we should update it elsewhere to say everything sources highlighted as important in the medical examiner's report (including the "everything that transpired" line, which multiple sources obviously highlighted as relevant), but using it as an argument to change the number in the infobox or to remove Sicknick from it is a direct, unambiguous misuse of the source that would be using it to make a chance that directly contradicts what it says. It establishes that Sicknick's death was (probably) not homicide, although the final determination about that is of course ultimately made in court; it specifically does not establish that it was unrelated to the storming of the capitol, and there is absolutely no grounds to read it any other way, so we must continue to treat it as related, per the overwhelming sources that continue to do so, until / unless we have actual sources saying otherwise. --Aquillion (talk) 13:51, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

This double-negative—"specifically and unambiguously goes out of its way to decline to state that his death was unrelated"—in no way asserts it was related. And things can be "related" in any number of ways—time, place, inclusion in news reports which later turn out to be false—which is totally different from saying that one is contributory to or causal of the other (or that all related things deserve inclusion in a Wikipedia article). WSJ says: "Report cites natural causes in officer’s death, drawing no links to Jan. 6 attack." NY asserts: "Medical Examiner: Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick Killed by Clot, Not Rioters." I'm unclear as to why there's such a strong push to claim, or even insinuate, a contributory and/or causal relationship here where none has been established—and indeed, has not even been claimed by the ME. Is this just a case of fundamental conservatism requiring more effort required to undo incorrect editing than to include it? Obviously the fact that "overwhelming sources" say something false does not mean it ought to be included in an article—that's obvious common sense. And what does "not homicide, [but] the final determination about that is of course ultimately made in court"—mean? And if there's no conclusion that Sicknick's death was caused by a person, no court case that alleges so, and indeed no evidence that it was—then we cannot speculate that his death was caused by a riot or rioters (for WP:BLP reasons, among others). I personally think that only people whose death was directly attributable to the protests should be included in the article (some of the people included here clearly didn't "storm the Capitol" and including them seems a WP:BLP violation)—do articles about other protests include deaths of people who died of completely unrelated causes during them—let alone those who died before or after? What's next—people who died shortly before watching them on TV? Enough with this, please: we really need to stick to the facts and, by all means report that the media got this wrong—but not that Sicknick died as a result of, during, or in any way that was significantly related to the "storming". That is simply perpetuating obvious misinformation. Elle Kpyros (talk) 15:21, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Ekpyros, Still, Diaz told the newspaper that "all that transpired" on January 6 "played a role in his condition." [1] There's your "contributory and/or causal relationship". .He was involved in a highly stressful situation, and then died of a cardiac event. It's not a fire extinguisher to the head, but it's clearly related. All that this means is that those guys with the bear mace likely won't be facing charges of murder. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:07, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Muboshgu It seems like you should be more concerned about Wikipedia carrying false information for months at a time. That means the system did not work. This is not the place for rumors. To continue to propagate the information on the thinnest of justifications seems negligent. Nweil (talk) 23:06, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Nweil, we reflect what reliable sources say, and that includes their mistakes. When they correct the record, so do we. It's not rumor mongering to say that stress can provoke a cardiac event. That's been proven through medical research. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Reflecting their mistakes has always been an inherently bad idea, encyclopedically. A stroke is a cerebrovascular event, not cardiac, and while stress and hypertension can be contributory factors, this report says nothing like that. Even his cherrypicked quote to a reporter only means what you think it does because it's vague as hell; "all that transpired" means literally every interaction that day is equally to blame. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:44, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this - we have the editorial discretion to reflect parts of reliable sources that are "more reliable", and I've had a problem with the "over quoting" that some people use to justify putting obviously wrong material into our articles just because it's in a reliable source. At this point, Sicknick's death cannot be considered connected to the events - the medical examiner obviously can't say "yes, for sure, the strokes weren't related" but unless someone brings forth a reliable source that says bear spray causes strokes then I think we need to use editorial judgement here and not connect his death to the events any more than "he was there that day then died the next". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:49, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Sicknick stroke not substantiated by citation

Current version:

Deaths and injuries

President Joe Biden and First Lady Jill Biden attend the viewing of Officer Sicknick's remains at the U.S. Capitol on February 3, 2021. Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick, 42, a 13-year veteran of the force,[409] was pepper-sprayed during the riot, and had a thromboembolic stroke the next day.[379]

Reference 379 does NOT say "thromoboembolic" stroke. That is either original research, looked up by a nurse working in the same hospital, true but cited elsewhere, or fake news. Solution: remove "thromoboembolic". Simply say it is a stroke. Inkfo (talk) 01:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Inkfo, why, when it's completely verifiable that it was a stroke caused by a clot - and thus meets WP:V even if it's not verifiable by the references currently in the article. Things will not be removed simply because sourcing is not adequate when the sources exist and just need added - WP:V does not require citation in an article, just that the information could be verified - which it can be. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:06, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Its verifiable that there was a stroke and it was caused by a clot, but where are you getting thromoboemboic/thromboembolic from that source? Are we taking description of the stroke and defining it into a medial term that readers of the source or Wikipedia article might not know? If the sources aren't using the term it is probably because it is better for readers to describe it as it is defined, rather than use a word which has no meaning to them. If we are going to use thromboembolic to be specific we should probably define it as well, but rather than do that it seems easier to describe the stroke as sources do, or simply call it a stroke. WikiVirusC^(talk) 14:13, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Police Officer

Should the police officer be removed because he died of a stroke, unrelated to the attacks on the Capitol?

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/19/988876722/capitol-police-officer-brian-sicknick-died-of-natural-causes-medical-examiner-ru

The above is an NPR source saying he died of a stroke. I believe we should remove the officer from the casualties for this reason. I am unaware of the circumstances of the other deaths listed (the rioters/attackers), but if their cause of death is similar (meaning they died of natural causes unrelated to the attack), they too should be removed. I am a dynamic IP and cannot edit, so any comments, thoughts, etc.? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:35A8:A436:4D28:FAFB (talk) 03:54, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Why would you think the stroke was unrelated? Dicklyon (talk) 04:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Because the coroner ruled it unrelated, hence the "natural causes" on the death certificate and NOT "homicide" (as marked on Ashli Babbets coroners report). Any claim of homicide therefore of Sicknick is therefore feelings based and not facts based. As stated in the other talk page however we can't simply remove Brian Sicknick from the article because the false claim he was murdered/killed/bludgeoned to death with a fire extinguisher or other conspiracy theories were used by Democrats and other activists as the primary reason for impeachment. Just because a hoax has been exposed, doesn't mean everything that happened before the hoax was exposed should be ignored.118.208.30.208 (talk) 04:47, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@118.208.30.208: Any claim of homicide therefore of Sicknick is therefore feelings based and not facts based isn't really a civil way to communicate here.

@Dicklyon: I think the IP might have a general point. The medical examiner's report has been widely reported on, and it doesn't appear to be included. The phrase the case has not been established as a homicide seems a bit odd given the medical examiner's affirmation that the cause of death was a medical condition alone; it's true but it also feels awfully roundabout given the public reporting on this (and even seems to give what might be WP:UNDUE credence to us affirming that is a homicide). He's generally been included as a casualty in reporting regarding the riots prior to the release of the medical examiner's report, though the section could use a bit of a look over to update how the article describes the officer's death in line with newer information. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The suggestion to "remove the officer from the casualties" said nothing about homicide or not. Our reporting that "Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick sustained injuries during the riot and died of a stroke the next day" seems reasonably NPOV. Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, what you are saying is a truthful sentence, though it also leaves out the context of the medical examiner's ruling. If we present those facts together, we probably should have some explicit reference to the medical examiner's report, seeing as we don't want to give off the impression that the two are causal in light of the report. Something along the line of One day after the Capitol Riot, Capitol Police officer Brian Sicknick suffered a fatal stroke. Sicknick had sustained injuries during the riot and had been sprayed with bear spray not labeled for use on humans, though the D.C. medical examiner ruled that these injuries did not contribute to his death. Initially, it was widely reported that his death had been caused by injuries sustained in the riot. might be more neutral (and there's a bit of a WP:BLP issues if we are framing this in a way that gives undue weight to the claims that the two people arrested caused his death, though I don't think that we have that issue per se). This is obviously way too long for a photo caption, but feel free to take it if you would like to use it in the text of the article. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:55, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

That's good wording. And IP is correct that his death should be removed from the tally as it was not caused by the storming/insurrection EvergreenFir (talk) 06:01, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't think that he should be mentioned as one of the casualties. He is of course notable in relation to the event due to the media coverage, but it should be relegated to a section regarding his death, and not included in the infobox. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 00:07, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the replies. As the original poster (I was not the second IP 118 that responded and babbled about hoaxes and whatnot), I think the death of Mr. Sicknick should not be in the infobox itself, but it should definitely be covered in the rest of the article. As far as I am aware, the infobox should have only people who were directly killed or injured in the riot. As his death was not related to the attacks, he should be listed as killed in said box, though listing him as injured, which was widely reported on, would be acceptable. The same criteria should also be applied to the rioters; I am unaware of the circumstances of the other deaths, however. I see that no one has yet removed Mr. Sicknick from the infobox. Is there still disagreement? There seems to be consensus here that he was not killed in the attack. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5066:37DA:6B8B:ABF9 (talk) 02:38, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

In fact, and as the section below mentions, Greeson and Philips also do not belong in the infobox. They also died of causes unrelated to the riots and should be removed. Greeson died of heart attack; Phillips, of a stroke. So only 2 people should be in the infobox. Comments? 2601:85:C101:C9D0:5066:37DA:6B8B:ABF9 (talk) 03:09, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Boyland died of an accidental amphetamine overdose, nothing violent, so maybe only one. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Good point, I agree. Only Babbit then should be in the infobox as killed. Mr. Sicknick and the other three rioters died of issues unrelated to the violent attack. I cannot make this edit, so a relevant user must make this edit, if they concur. 2601:85:C101:C9D0:B583:A1F0:B26:94D9 (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

My relevance to this community is fading fast, brother, but  Done. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

There's still some citation overkill; editing the whole massive page at once hogs my meager CPU resources to a disturbingly stifling degree, save us, someone! InedibleHulk (talk) 01:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Benjamin Philips and Kevin Greeson

Philips died in the morning four hours before the riot began, why is he included as a fatality in the Capitol storming event? Also Kevin Greeson apparently died around 2 pm which was ten minutes before the actual breach of the Capitol (according to the timeline). I feel less confused by Greeson being inlcuded since it was so close to the actual event (although still prior to and from natural causes) but why is Philips being included as part of this event, what am I missing because doesn't make sense to me? Yodabyte (talk) 06:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has any thoughts on this issue? Yodabyte (talk) 04:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I did, added a clarifying "before" earlier, just mentioning it here now. As to why things are missing and what's left doesn't make much sense, I blame a lot of downfalls, no simple solutions. But before, during and after, that's still a pretty easy concept to grasp (for now). InedibleHulk (talk) 05:29, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean, are you drunk? Not trying to be rude, only asking because your response is unintelligible. Yodabyte (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

It's the COVID, probably; see my edit at 01:04 today, UTC. Thought it was what you asked for. If not, it's still good. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Just curious why do you write on Wikipedia in a strange cryptic way (not just here but in your edit summaries and throughout talk pages)?? Yodabyte (talk) 07:08, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

As far as as my actual question what I'm getting at is why should Greeson and Philips be included AT ALL in the article since they both died of natural causes prior to and separate from the riot/storming. In other words, the article should state that three people died directly/indirectly related to the insurrection - Boyland, Babbitt, and Sicknick.Yodabyte (talk) 07:06, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Because I'm a strange and cryptic person, obviously. If I wrote this article, I'd cut them. But they've been part of it for so long that I think others would miss them, especially whoever added them. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Babbitt?

According to the current article Babbitt was fatally shot once in the shoulder. Is it even possible to be shot fatally in the shoulder? None of the references appear to give details, other than that she was shot so where is this claim coming from? As far as I'm aware she was shot in the chest. I'm also under the impression she was shot without warning whilst attempting to climb through a window but this isn't mentioned. I'm also seeing it claimed Capitol Police officers were warned by Metropolitan Police that participants were carrying concealed weapons, but the references do not make this claim and a couple of quick searches are not returning any results. I can see articles saying Capitol Police were generally ordered not to use less-lethal options on the day, but nothing about concealed weapon warnings. Anyone able to clarify this? 人族 (talk) 07:02, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@人族: To respond in part, the current DC Medical Examiner has stated (news reports) that Babbit had been fatally shot in the shoulder; I think the quote from the medical examiner himself provides a good source here for that fact. If you'd like to provide context into the shooting, and you find reliable sources that describe the circumstances in which Babbit was shot and killed in the way that you are recalling, then I don't object to adding it per se, provided that it doesn't begin to take up an unduly large amount of space and that it reflects reporting from reliable sources. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 07:11, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Mikehawk10:, keywords can make all the difference. Looks like the bullet entered via the front left shoulder. Doesn't state the course so perhaps it travelled through the torso rather than out the back of her shoulder? ME ruled it a homicide. 人族 (talk) 07:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

A gunshot to the shoulder can be fatal without reaching any other part of the body if it severs the subclavian artery (that branches out from the Aorta to supply the arm with blood). If this artery is severed in the arm itself the bleeding can be stopped by e.g. a tourniquet applied around the arm. However, such a bleeding inside the shoulder (where the artery carries more blood) cannot easily be stopped - especially not be a first responder. Lklundin (talk) 13:34, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

shot without warning - she illegally broke into the Capitol Building and was attempting to breach a locked and physically-barricaded set of doors leading to the House Chamber. What more warning should she have been given? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 12:25, 20 April 2021 (UTC

The punishment for that isn't execution. There were heavily armed responders standing very close to her who did not appear to try to stop or warn her. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:22, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Not from the images I have seen, it was one side on one side of the doors.Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

It's in the video of her being shot. When she falls to the ground after being shot there is a group of officers holding long guns who appear to attempt to render aid. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:23, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

After she was shot, and even if they were on her side of the doors, they were trying to prevent the attackers from breaching. So even if (and I have seen nothing to say at the time of the shot they were anywhere but on the other side of the door) they were on her side, they were already engaged and busy.Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

And besides, they were wanted when they breached the outside barriers, the outside doors, the inside doors. They had been wanted (both verbal;y and by police forcing them back) at every stage of illegal entry. There comes a point when the warnings have to stop and action needs to be taken when that is an attempt to breach an inner (high security) chamber by an armed mob that is it. She must have ignored multiple warnings to have got to where she was.Slatersteven (talk) 14:49, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

So that’s when it’s ok to kill people? Mr Ernie (talk) 02:27, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

It's not "punishment," it's lawful defense of the literal House Chamber, Members of Congress and the Vice President of the United States from an armed mob of violent insurrectionists who attempted to stop the Constitutional processes of government. I'm sorry that you think white Trump supporters are entitled to kid-glove treatment, and I feel sorry for her because she was egged on by a torrent of seditious propaganda from the president and his sycophants... but yeah, that was a clean shoot. She had several choices, and she made all of the wrong ones. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:33, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

No I get it. It’s just weird seeing you say it’s ok for cops to kill people for trespassing. I feel sorry for her too. Mr Ernie (talk) 02:30, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

trespassing - entering a closed building with the intent to commit a crime is not trespassing, it's burglary. And people get shot and killed for burglary of an occupied building fairly frequently, because that tends to be defined as home invasion and it is lawful to use deadly force against an unauthorized intruder. Please show the case law where an armed person lawfully inside a building has to "warn" an unauthorized intruder before using deadly force against said intruder. Note the "middle-ground" stand-your-ground law in D.C. - there is no duty to retreat, rather the question is whether [defendant] reasonably at the time of the incident believed that s/he was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and that deadly force was necessary to repel that danger. If I'm a Capitol Police officer whose sworn duty is to defend the lives of our country's democratically-elected lawmakers, and I'm confronted by a violent mob smashing windows and attempting to breach locked and barricaded doors leading into the House Chamber while members of Congress were present and being evacuated... yup, I'd have pulled the trigger too. The fact that there are unjustified police shootings does not mean all police shootings are unjustified. I would be happy to point to dozens upon dozens of police shootings which were clearly justified uses of deadly force. Like, say, this one. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:53, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Just watched the video, how is that a justified police shooting? Looks like the guy is running away when the cop shoots at him Yodabyte (talk) 05:11, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Uh, did you watch as the suspect fired multiple shots at the police officer? The suspect attempted to murder the police officer, and then attempted to steal the officer's motorcycle. That is about as clear-cut a legitimate and justified use of deadly force as it gets. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with you on police being able to defend themselves if they are shot at. But from the video it appears the suspect is running away at the time he is actually shot and killed. Yodabyte (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

@NorthBySouthBaranof: whether or not you personally believe the shooting was justified has nothing to do with whether it should be included in the article that it was without warning. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 23:43, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Which reliable source says there was no warning? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:01, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

To add, as part of a forced entry during a riot in which cops had already been attacked.Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Attacked by completely different people, who were successfully defeated without gunfire, if that matters. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:36, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

I see that the story of Ashli Babbitt — the only *actual* fatality of this riot — has been all but entirely airbrushed out of this article. Her shooting can't be a source of controversy if she's an Unperson. Good going, Wikipedia! LewisChessman (talk) 00:09, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Her death is in fact covered in the article. Feoffer (talk) 00:15, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

"All but entirely", said the Chessman. And I agree. Compared to Shooting of Justine Damond, Babbitt is basically a cameo here, barely audible above the weight of fantabulous media circus elephants. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:36, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Justine Diamond, who was lawfully on the street in front of her home. Ashli Babbitt, on the other hand, voluntarily took part in a violent mob which feloniously broke into the United States Capitol, and was further attempting to breach locked and barricaded doors into the House Chamber. I'm sorry that your false equivalency is false, and I'm sorry that Babbitt was so thoroughly duped by Trump's seditious lies that she threw her life away for nothing. That's the tragedy here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

InedibleHulk the difference between Damond and Babbitt is Damond was just on the street and was shot for no reason by an overaggressive cop. Babbitt was breaking into a secure area of Capitol building when she was shot. I still think she shouldn't have been shot though. Why wasn't she tased, she would have fallen back thru the window from the shock of the taser. The officer would achieve the same goal of protecting members of Congress without killing someone. Yodabyte (talk) 05:26, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not flat-out equating the circumstances. Just comparing and saying, there's a remarkably large difference between having your name in the title and not even featuring into the lead. Some additional prominence is due here, I think, especially given the government's broader campaign against forceful police forces. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

LewisChessman, what are we supposed to say about her? There's a paragraph on her death, but there's no indication that she was particularly influential in the insurrection, and her death didn't change anything about its course. I know that some of the more ardent seditionists consider her a martyr, but we're not going down that rabbit hole, right? Guy (help! - typo?) 07:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)