Talk:Murder of George Floyd

Meaning of "hooping"

I edited here to explain the meaning of "hooping" as "inserting drugs anally". This explanation is consistent with the context of the conversation between Floyd, Lane, and Kueng and supported by the cited article CBC which explains the meaning but in an entirely unrelated incident. I think it's pretty clear from context that Floyd isn't using the more common meaning of the term "the manipulation of and artistic movement or dancing with a hoop." Is any definition of hooping WP:PRIMARY until a WP:RSP defines it in context? The existing source Star Tribune says "Floyd said he [...] had been playing basketball earlier" but that isn't even a definition of the term. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

This [1] seems to disagree. So you need a source that says that its use by Floyd meant taking drugs.Slatersteven (talk) 13:40, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It's almost uncanny the way people manage to find perverse interpretations of everything. EEng 13:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Kinky.Slatersteven (talk) 14:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven The Free Dictionary definition is for "hoop" the subsection on "hooping" contains two definitions "To hold together or support with a hoop" and "To encircle" neither have anything to do with basketball nor any reasonable interpretation in context but I'll look for a WP:RSP that is directly on point. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 14:01, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Neither does it say "to insert drugs up ya bum", either.Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

[[2]], [[3]], [[4]]. So yes it is a term sued in basketball.Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk about litigious! EEng 17:20, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

That should of course be used.Slatersteven (talk) 17:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't understand. What should be used? [5] EEng 20:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It should have been used not sued.Slatersteven (talk) 20:38, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven I agree, the Harvard Sports Analysis article is a good example of usage NovaCrest5878 (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• I removed the word "hooping" from the article because it doesn't appear in the secondary sources cited. The source says "playing basketball", which is what we should say, too. If there are other secondary sources about George Floyd that use the word (or ascribe a different meaning to it), they should be posted and discussed here, maybe the content needs to be updated. Until then, it seems to me this is a good example of the reason we have an WP:OR policy and write using secondary and not primary sources: to prevent editors from interpreting primary sources, e.g., "what does 'hooping' mean in this transcript?" Let secondary sources answer that. The Star Tribune says it means playing basketball. Lev!vich 15:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Levivich There are lots of secondary sources discussing "hooping" and it's meaning in context but I haven't seen any that would likely be considered WP:RSP NovaCrest5878 (talk) 15:09, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I think changing "hooping" to basketball is a good solution.Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The main one I've seen is The American Conservative [6] but that's yellow at WP:RSP which won't cut it for content this controversial in a BLP.

However, does anyone have access to the London Times? I think this Times article (based on search hits, I don't have access and it's paywalled) says hooping appears to be an allusion to drug use. Lev!vich 15:20, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The Times articles says, in pertinent part: In the video Floyd also refers to "hooping", which appears to be an allusion to drug use: fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system, according to a toxicology report. The structure of the sentence suggests that the inference on the sense of the word was made, by the reporter, based on the findings of the toxicology report – uncharacteristically sloppy reporting by The Times. EEng 18:11, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

EEng#s How is The Times' inference any less valid than the Star Tribune's if anything it would seem more valid from the context of the conversation and the findings of the toxicology report NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't compare it to the Star Tribune. I compared it to The Times's usually careful reporting, from which I would have expected to read something like In the video Floyd also refers to "hooping", which may refer to playing basketball or may be an allusion to drug use: fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system, according to a toxicology report. EEng 19:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

EEng#s My apologies, you are correct. It would have been more fair for me to direct my statement toward the use of the phrase "playing basketball" than to your comment in which you clearly didn't compare the inferences. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 20:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

"hooping" to me has always been related to basketball. i would never use it personally, but i dont play basketball anyways. this is along the lines of the [obligatory] mention of that NYT synthesis. though the sources are reliable the content they are pushing in that specific case seems unreliable. if they tried hard enough the Illuminati can be confirmed based on the unfortunate incident... Stayfree76 (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Albeit playing devil's advocate, Chris Cuomo asserted the contextual meaning was not basketball but drug-related 'CUOMO: "Drugs! Drugs, Joey. Drugs! He was on drugs." You heard him. He asked him.' Cached CNN Cuomo Prime Time Transcript NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:00, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Kueng: You got foam around your mouth, too?

Floyd: Yes, I was just hooping earlier.

The video of them pulling him over, and the transcript, show he was definitely talking about drugs he was clearly on at the time. Dream Focus 18:49, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

How does it show he was definitely talking about drugs, and how is that not just your own OR? EEng 19:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Police officer: You got foam around your mouth, too?

Person: Yes, I was just putting drugs in my butt earlier.

I have a really hard time believing anyone would say that, especially to a police officer, even if it were true. Basketball seems like a much more reasonable interpretation. Admittedly, I have limited experience in these areas. Lev!vich 20:06, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure, we believe you. But seriously, I was going to make the same point. EEng 20:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• I added "hooping" back, with The Times, and a footnote. Lev!vich 19:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

whatever it says, i think it should be heavily leaned toward the meaning being basketball with a small note about drugs. Americans are pretty good at knowing the Miranda rights even if they haven't been said as well as the fifth amendment. from one of my favorite rappers, Ice Cube:

It's already over supernova// I'm Kobe you a nigga I'm hooping over//[7] Stayfree76 (talk) 21:30, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• Does anyone foam at the mouth after playing basketball? Is foaming around the mouth something that happens by people using the drugs found in his body? Dream Focus 21:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
• personally, i don't care if medical documents say a drug overdose causes it or not, but basically it comes down to a fairly small list of, but is not fully inclusive: drug overdose, rabies, seizure, *neurological other serious health conditions (which he did have). he had also said he was shot before, yet there is no documentation anywhere backing up that claim. this is not saying that it was a lie, but its well known that people say anything they can to get out of charges or from getting arrested. IMO, it would be doing him a disservice for anyone's interpretation of the matter, especially when done in hindsight, to be used. i personally, would rather just leave that part out based on it being so iffy, but if it must stay it should not lean toward him admitting to being on drugs... as mentioned before, [pretty much] every american knows to tell the police nothing that can incriminate themselves, which the Miranda rights covers: Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.. with that said, it would be easy for any defendant to say it meant basketball which would cast enough doubt on the statement for it to unusable towards incrimination. Stayfree76 (talk) 22:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

  He claims to have been shot before, he claims his mother just died, he claims he just had covid, he said he was claustrophobic. Anyway, how its written now is fine, use his word of "hooping" don't change it to be "playing basketball". Dream Focus 22:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

yea, i agree with you. im just against putting any weight into what "hooping" might or could or possibly maybe means since the general discussion is about including the [fact] Floyd said something self-incriminating. i just think that any news reports on the word are in hindsight after the autopsy report was available making it way too easy to draw some [potentially] strong conclusions that would have been weak prior to. Basically, did anyone mention hooping meaning drug use before the autopsy was released? if not, then it is likely no one considered/thought that until after the fact. hindsight reporting is dangerous, imo. (im picturing the "its always sunny" episode with the crazy investigative strings connecting the pictures, maps, and news clippings in my head.) Stayfree76 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Rmv drug reference Sources related to Floyd commonly refer to hooping as basketball:

1. July 8. Fox News. "Lane said Floyd had foam at his mouth and determined he was "on something." Floyd reportedly said he was scared and had been playing basketbal."[8]
2. July 8. Associated Press. "According to the body camera video transcripts, when asked about the foam and whether he was on something, Floyd said he was scared and had been playing basketball."[9]
3. July 9. Star Tribune. "Lane then asked Floyd if he was on something, while Kueng asked about the foam around his mouth. Floyd said he was scared, and that he had been playing basketball earlier."[10]
4. July 16. The Washington Post. "But Floyd insisted he was on “nothing” and had been playing basketball earlier." [11]

Per the policy WP:EXCEPTIONAL: Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. In this particular case, The Sunday Times, a newspaper in the UK, where basketball is not as popular as in the US, likely didn't know what it meant and took the first match that seemed to make sense from Urban Dictionary. Per WP:UNDUE: Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views (such as Flat Earth).—Bagumba (talk) 05:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Lev!vich 06:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree, to suggest "I was playing basketball earlier" is a response to the question to "Why are you foaming at the mouth?" considered reasonable by the overwhelming majority of people seems unlikely. I'm a native US English speaker and the first thing I did when I saw the transcript was search Google for the meaning of "hooping" because I'd never heard it used as a verb before. Earlier in this discussion when Slatersteven provided examples of the term referring to basketball and three of the four examples were not from US English sources. Granted the usage could be regional or urban in origin. Put it into context however and it makes even less sense. I've never heard of anyone foaming at the mouth during or after exercise absent some sort of severe health issue. Healthline lists three causes for foaming at the mouth drug overdose, seizure, and rabies and says it is a serious medical condition and advises calling 911. A reasonable person encountering someone foaming at the mouth would seek urgent medical care not presume they had been playing basketball earlier in the day. Healthline - Foaming at the Mouth NovaCrest5878 (talk) 17:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, but literally every part of your argument here is WP:original research. Your argument boils down to "I don't believe it." Several of us have expressed what we do and don't believe is likely or reasonable in this conversation, but in the end, when it comes to making a decision, it doesn't matter what we believe. The outcome here is driven entirely by the sources, and only by the sources, with no part of it involving what we believe, or have heard of before, or what makes sense to us. By "sources", I don't mean any source. I don't mean dictionaries. I mean reliable sources (RS) about this topic. In this case, reliable sources about this topic are mainstream press writing about this exchange between the officer and GF.

Here's how the analysis flows:

1. WP:NPOV requires us to faithfully present the mainstream view and significant minority views. Per the sources, the mainstream view is "basketball". Of five RSes analyzed here, four say "basketball". Based on this overwhelming (80%) consensus of sources, we must say "basketball", in wikivoice, per WP:NPOV and WP:V.
2. We would include "drug use" if it were a significant minority view, but we wouldn't mention it at all if it were a view held by a tiny minority, per WP:UNDUE (part of NPOV) and WP:EXCEPTIONAL (part of V).
3. WP:EXCEPTIONAL is directly applicable, and requires multiple, high quality RSes before we can say, even with attribution, that someone admitted to an officer to recent drug use (which is an exceptional claim).
4. The one source that says "drug use", The Sunday Times, is a high-quality source, but it's only one, so we can't say "drug use" and comply with WP:V (specifically WP:EXCEPTIONAL) if we only cite "drug use" to one source.
5. As such, barring additional sources to analyze, my recent edits should be reverted and "basketball" should be reinstated, cited to those four sources.
6. If there are other high-quality RSes beside The Sunday Times that say "drug use", I'd say we could represent that minority viewpoint in a footnote with attribution. Lev!vich 17:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I understand that my response was WP:OR but I thought that was acceptable in a talk reply especially when arguing against the alternate interpretation being WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I presume the flat earth example was used to set the bar high. I think there are a number of other sources though not WP:RSP Green on the alternate interpretation. Are all five of the sources you are using for your 80/20 comparison WP:RSP Green? NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:12, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

OR is acceptable on a talk page in the sense that what you posted isn't a violation of WP:TPG or any of our policies (although too much OR on talk pages can lead to people making WP:NOTAFORUM complaints, but this isn't one of those cases). But it's not acceptable for arguing about what should go in the article in the sense that such arguments carry no weight. This is where the oft-misunderstood saying that Wikipedia is about "verifiability not truth": it doesn't matter what GF actually meant in reality, because no one will every know the truth of that with 100% certainty, since GF can't tell us. So what matters isn't "what we think is most likely", it's what the RS say, and when it comes to "drug use", what high quality RSes say.

WaPo, AP, and Fox News (for news) are listed as green at RSP. Star Tribune isn't but that's not surprising for a regional newspaper (few are listed), and it is the paper of record for Minnesota, so it would almost certainly be green if it were listed at RSP. The Sunday Times is green. However, the important thing isn't so much that a source be green (because RSP is not an exhaustive list of good sources), but that it not be yellow or red. So all five sources are reliable sources, and The Sunday Times is "high quality" (whereas I'd say Fox News and the Star Tribune are reliable but not "high quality"), so to include "drug use", even in a footnote with attribution, we'd need at least one more "high quality" source akin to The Sunday Times that says "drug use". Something like the BBC or the New York Times or an academic journal. Lev!vich 18:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are a couple of other sources "“Hooping” in the Urban Dictionary refers to the practice of transporting contraband in the rectum." The American Conservative (Yellow) "Asked whether he was “on something,” Floyd said he’d been “hooping,” or taking drugs." LA Times (Green) NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

TAC is no good for being yellow as you point out, but I agree LATimes is green and I think it's high quality enough... LATimes is a national newspaper, the story is written by a bureau chief, it's published in the national news section... seems on par with WaPo. And as such I now think we should say "basketball" in wikivoice and "drug use" in a footnote with attribution to the Timeses. Lev!vich 18:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

You think the majority is basketball and the minority is drugs, I think it is vice versa. I propose wikivoice should either (1) give equal weight to both acknowledging the differing interpretations or (2) just use the verbatim term from the transcript and leave the interpretation to the reader NovaCrest5878 (talk) 18:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah but four RSes (Fox, Star, AP, WaPo) say basketball and two (London and LA Times) say drugs, no? I'd be on board with #1 if it were an even split. I'd never be on board with #2 because we're not giving the reader complete information if we're not telling them how the reliable sources define "hooping". Lev!vich 18:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

(2) was the state of the article before I naively started this and clearly there is an honest dispute even among the informed participants in this discussion NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

True but that doesn't make it a good thing :-) In theory, every prior state of every article is worse than the current state. Lev!vich 19:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I could also make the argument that the more recent articles The Times 8/9 and the LA Times 8/20 all use the drug interpretation. The basketball interpretation articles are all from July so perhaps the consensus among WP:RSP has evolved to the drug interpretation. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That's an argument. 6 is also a small sample size. The real question is whether there is an accepted mainstream position and a significant minority position, or whether there are two evenly-held positions, and 4-2 v. 3-3 is a real fine line and thus rather unsatisfactory. I'm curious what everyone else thinks. Lev!vich 19:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

The American Conservative (Yellow) article is 8/4 and uses the drug interpretation NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

there is another big problem with this: “Hooping” in the Urban Dictionary refers to the practice of transporting contraband in the rectum. this is clearly stating the use is for transportation, not to consume. per this quote, the only way it would be in the blood is if the storage media holding said drugs was damage and were absorbed by the body. so you think GF said: i was transporting drugs in my ass, but the container broke, and i just ingested so much drugs i could die? (with the assumption that when you transport drugs its well above a single dose) StayFree76 ^talk 19:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense that Floyd would voluntarily admit to police that he transported illegal drugs in his rectum, i.e. one definition of hooping, when asked about foam around his mouth. It makes more sense that he would say it was from basketball like it was sweat, whether or not he actually played basketball earlier. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary has multiple definitions of hooping one "Placing an foreign item or object in your rectum in an attempt to smuggle it into a location." would fit if there was a failure of the container the other "Administering psychoactive drugs via enema...aka stuffin' E up yer ass." would fit directly NovaCrest5878 (talk) 19:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It still doesn't make sense for the same reason. Bob K31416 (talk) 20:51, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

that's fine, so we have 2 sources suggesting drugs, but lets look at that closer. one states which appears to be an allusion to drug use (not statement of fact) and the other states ...“hooping,” or taking drugs., but doesn't qualify how they drew the connection. that makes the weight of these, imo, much lower. StayFree76 ^talk 20:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

To be blunt, no source will ever be a statement of fact on this subject. Even if Floyd were alive the best anyone could do is hope to get an honest answer from him but since he is gone all anyone can do is make an informed guess. That's undeniably true regardless of how reliable any source may be. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 20:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's the relevant excerpt from the body cam transcript, pp 6–7.[12] Floyd says he's not on drugs and explains that the foam around his mouth is from hooping, which wouldn't make sense if hooping meant taking drugs.

Lane: What are you on something right now ?

George Floyd: No, nothing.

Kueng: Because you acting a little erratic.

Lane: Let's go. Let's go

George Floyd: I'm scared, man

Lane: Let's go

Kueng: You got foam around your mouth, too ?

George Floyd: Yes, I was just hooping earlier .

Bob K31416 (talk) 21:54, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to beat a dead horse but as I and others have explained above we've read the same content and arrived at a different conclusion. The question now is how to proceed with opposing interpretations and no possibility of an indisputable source ever being available. I proposed two possible approaches but I'm open to better ideas. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 23:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, the point I made wasn't discussed before. It's based on Floyd saying he didn't take any drugs, "No, nothing." Bob K31416 (talk) 00:07, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@NovaCrest5878: well, i didnt mean the statement was fast or not. making a statement of fact is more in respect to how the idea is presented. they are basically questioning the idea in their own statement, but still thought it necessary to bring up. i can lie to your face, but make it a statement of fact, if i word it as fact. StayFree76 ^talk 22:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It's a little difficult to follow, but If I understand, you are basically pointing out that by using the phrase "which appears to be an allusion" they are telling the reader that this is their best interpretation of the contextual meaning, not an indisputable fact. My point is that whether the source is or isn't explicit in telling the reader this is their interpretation of meaning logic dictates it is. NovaCrest5878 (talk) 22:55, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Allusion is a figure of speech, in which an object or circumstance from unrelated context is referred to covertly or indirectly. It is left to the audience to make the direct connection.. sounds like they are saying: "you decide for yourself". doesnt sound like something that Wikipedia can use, but then again im just an inexperienced editor so ill stop chiming in. that was the last bit i had left in me so ill drop out from here. hopefully my stance is accounted for in any future changes. :). StayFree76 ^talk 23:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Is hooping important? If we can't state in Wikipedia voice what hooping is thought to mean in this context, perhaps we don't mention it at all. The article already states that Floyd played basketball growing up. It's in the article that the officers suspected he was on something, and that he denied it. We already mention the drugs found in the autopsy. Mentioning the informal/slang terms that are unfamiliar to most readers doesn't buy us anything if Wikipedia is non-committal on its meaning in this context. For example, CBC describes the sequence without mentioning hooping: The other officer asks if he's on something. The first officer says, "Because you're acting real erratic … You've got foam around your mouth." Floyd says, "I'm scared, man."[13] If sources make hooping more prominent later, we can revisit.—Bagumba (talk) 13:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

FFS, stop overthinking this. Floyd was into basketball, and would never tell the cops that he had shoved drugs up his arse. Just leave the quote as it is, almost all readers will get the gist that he had claimed he had just been throwing baskets. This thread reeks of OR. Just back off and let Floyd's quote be interpreted by readers. WWGB (talk) 13:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Source analysis table

Reliable sources on "hooping"

Source	WP:RSP listing	Date	Includes "hooping"?	Interpretation	Quote
Fox News [14]	green (for news excluding politics and science)	7/08	No	basketball	Lane said Floyd had foam at his mouth and determined he was "on something." Floyd reportedly said he was scared and had been playing basketball.
Associated Press [15]	green	7/09	No	basketball	According to the body camera video transcripts, when asked about the foam and whether he was on something, Floyd said he was scared and had been playing basketball.
Star Tribune [16]	not listed but it's the largest paper in Minnesota	7/09	No	basketball	Lane then asked Floyd if he was on something, while Kueng asked about the foam around his mouth. Floyd said he was scared, and that he had been playing basketball earlier.
The Washington Post [17]	green	7/15	No	basketball	Lane asked Floyd whether he was on drugs while Kueng pointed out the “foam” around his mouth. But Floyd insisted he was on “nothing” and had been playing basketball earlier. The county’s autopsy of Floyd showed evidence of fentanyl intoxication and recent methamphetamine use, but did not list them as causes of death.
The Sunday Times [18]	green	8/09	Yes	drug use	In the video Floyd also refers to "hooping", which appears to be an allusion to drug use: fentanyl and methamphetamine were found in his system, according to a toxicology report
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation [19]	not listed but it's Canada's national public broadcaster	8/11	No	none	Pulled by his elbow, Floyd says, "Ow." The other officer asks if he's on something. The first officer says, "Because you're acting real erratic … You've got foam around your mouth." Floyd says, "I'm scared, man."
Los Angeles Times [20]	green	8/20	Yes	drug use	Asked whether he was “on something,” Floyd said he’d been “hooping,” or taking drugs.

Posted. Lev!vich 18:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Continued discussion

• I posted a source analysis table above, adding the sources in the discussion above, but excluding any sources that were listed yellow at RSP. Please feel free to add any additional sources. Based on the table above, I think we should say "played basketball" in wikivoice in the body of the article. I'm ambivalent about a footnote explaining that he used the word "hooping" and that according to LA and Sunday Times, that's an allusion to drug use. Note that what's in our article currently is a bold edit of mine that I don't think has consensus and that doesn't include all the sources listed above.. currently it presents just two contradicting sources, so I don't think the status quo should remain, regardless of what we decide to change it to. Lev!vich 18:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Misinformation in the section Minneapolis police response

Currently the section Minneapolis police response implies that the police department lied when they reported that Floyd physically resisted and appeared to be suffering medical distress. Reliable sources that came out 3 months afterwards showed and discussed recently released body cam video where Floyd resisted and appeared to be suffering medical distress, like the police report said. The misinformation can be remedied by adding the following to the section.

Around August 11, the police publicly released body cam footage that showed Floyd struggling with police when they were trying to handcuff him and again struggling to keep from being put in a police car.[21] As they tried to put him in the back seat of the police car he said, "I can't breathe ... I had COVID, man … I can't breathe."[22]

Here's the excerpt that was used from the text of the 1st reliable source, "The officers pull Floyd from the car. He struggles as the two officers try to handcuff him." And here's the excerpt from the text of the 2nd RS, "Floyd is then shoved into the back seat and squirms, saying, 'I can't breathe ... I had COVID, man … I can't breathe.' A struggle breaks out on the other side of the car, as officers attempt to shove him in." Bob K31416 (talk) 17:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

He also said he had been shot before and his mother just died, but there is no evidence of him ever being shot and his mother had actually died two years before then.[23] Did the autopsy show he had that disease in him? Dream Focus 17:27, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Gee why don't you look it up on Wikipedia and see what it says. Lev!vich 17:46, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

He also said ... his mother just died For context, when and where was this and what is its significance?—Bagumba (talk) 18:17, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The article doesn't imply the police were lying. It states explicitly that the police omitted key details (knee on the neck), which is what the cited sources say. Lev!vich 17:46, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Our article does. It says that the Police Department issued a statement. It then gives a quote, "After Floyd got out [of his car], he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress." Our article then says, "Hours later, after witness and security camera video circulating on the internet contradicted that account,[75] the department updated its statement..."

So basically, our article implies the PD was caught in a lie, and then changed their story. Bob K31416 (talk) 18:28, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's what the sources say happened (including the word "contradict"). "Lie" is kind of a charged word, I guess it's a lie of omission, but the article says what the sources say: the statement didn't include all the facts, and after video contradicting the statement was released, the police "updated" the statement (you could say "changed their story" or "backtracked" or what-have-you, I guess "updated" is a bit euphemistic, but I think that's the word used in the sources as well). I'm not seeing the "change X to Y" here. Where/how is the article out of line with the sources? Lev!vich 18:56, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

For reference, can you quote the specific text from the Wikipedia article that you believe implies that the police lied?—Bagumba (talk) 18:36, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I see I'm running into a roadblock here. So I'll simply stand by my previous statements and see what any other editors may care to add to the discussion. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

im with Bob K31416 here. the ABC articles says It revealed the truth: a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man, George Floyd, to the ground., inferring the original statement was a lie. that being said, omitting information isn't a lie and their original statement was 100% true (a man died in police custody).

this is a loaded statement and looks like WP:Synthesis to me Early on May 26, the Minneapolis Police Department issued a statement ("Man Dies After Medical Incident During Police Interaction") which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck:

also this is misleading Hours later, after witness and security camera video circulating on the internet contradicted that account. just because more context or detail is given to an event doesn't mean the original statement contradicted the current statement (the current statement builds off of the original.) StayFree76 ^talk 21:32, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Synthesis applies to our use of sources to construct an argument that they don't make. In contrast ABC are actually making that statement themselves.[24]. Critically the article actually frames the reveal within the wider context of police misinformation Law enforcement officers have been captured beating, gassing, and shooting rubber bullets at terrified US citizens across the country, in a wave of state violence. And the footage has exposed in real time how police have historically used "official reports" of controversial incidents to obscure the truth. In addition their original statement is contradicted by witnesses who gave their opinion on the statement in real time, in addition to review of the CCTV, which is then subsequently reported on in reliable sources with the context of criticising the polices initial statement being loose with the truth. Koncorde (talk) 23:08, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

do a control + f on that source. "knee" is shown 4 times and none of them state ...which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck:. wanna know what else the police report didnt state? that i like big butts. should we add that into the article? all jokes aside, i said that bold part was synthesis because some editor drew the conclusion that mentioning that is important themselves, not because a source deemed it important, and so that specific portion would be better off removed. i am just stating this as something i found important while doing some honest reading about the discussion at hand so i can make an informed decision. StayFree76 ^talk 16:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

No, it says "Late last month, a Minneapolis police spokesman told reporters that a man had died after he "physically resisted" officers, but "officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and officers noticed that the man was going into medical distress". It revealed the truth: a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man, George Floyd, to the ground".. The point being made is clear - as is the subsequent raft of sources all explaining what is significant about the polices initial statement; the absence of any mention of his being restrained and cajoled by the public into maybe not killing the guy they were kneeling on. I am not sure which editor you are referring to that is arguing it should be included because they think it's important rather than because the RS support its inclusion - but it's an irrelevance because it's supported by the RS. Koncorde (talk) 16:37, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

If you're going to go to the trouble of bolding a statement, you should also go to the trouble of making sure the statement is correct. What are you talking about, saying the ABC.au source "said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck"?

The ABC.au source says:

Late last month, a Minneapolis police spokesman told reporters that a man had died after he "physically resisted" officers, but "officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and officers noticed that the man was going into medical distress".

But then footage of the incident surfaced online and went viral.

It revealed the truth: a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man, George Floyd, to the ground.

In addition, the other sources cited in the paragraph are quoted in Koncorde's comment below. As are a number of links to yet more sources saying the same thing. Lev!vich 16:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

where in the the cited text does it say: ...which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck:? this is the problem, it doesnt... StayFree76 ^talk 16:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC) quick edit: when has wikipedia been about documenting what people dont say instead of what they do say?

Where in the cited source? Right here: It revealed the truth: a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man, George Floyd, to the ground.

You see, "it" refers to "footage of the incident" that "surfaced online and went viral". Saying the footage "revealed the truth" means that the truth was previously concealed, in this case, by what "a Minneapolis police spokesman told reporters". Allow your eyes to glance up to the full quote in previous comments above, and note the author's use of the word "But" to start the sentence about footage, immediately after the sentence about the police statement. The word "but" denotes that the text after the word "but" will contradict the text before the word "but".

Then after "It revealed the truth", there's a colon (":"), which is punctuation indicating that the text that comes after the colon will be about the text that was before the colon. In this case, the text after the colon describes "the truth" that was "revealed" by the "footage" and which was previously concealed by what a "police spokesman told reporters". This "truth" is: (there's that colon again!) "a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man".

So, as you can see, by reading the sentence, we are able to determine that the sentence means that the truth, which is the knee-on-the-neck, was revealed by video footage after being concealed by the police in their statement.

The astute editor will also note that this source is being cited for the quote, and that there are a number of other sources cited in the paragraph that support the content and make the same point more explicitly, as Koncorde pointed out below.

</condescension> Lev!vich 16:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Regarding StayFree's question: "when has wikipedia been about documenting what people dont say instead of what they do say?". Pretty much any article involving lies, misinformation, half-truths etc will include commentary by the RS about the omissions. For instance when someone alleges a crime, the RS may present evidence that they do not include in their allegation which supports, or disproves such a statement. Koncorde (talk) 17:05, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Levivich:, andddddd we have now come full circle. so was the police report a lie? because that is the only way the truth makes any sense. StayFree76 ^talk 17:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

No, the police didn't lie. They just didn't reveal the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. There was a modicum of Truthiness I am sure. Maybe even the initial statements by Chauvin etc were misleading in and of themselves - but that would be at a minimum synthesis, and likely OR to speculate on why they chose not to mention the fact he died at the scene after being knelt on for 9 minutes. Koncorde (talk) 17:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

so if they didnt lie why are we using charged working that infers that they did? the entire paragraph can be less pointy by saying: the prilimary police report said insert what it said. hours later more details surfaced and this happened. i dont think it should be this hard to point toward a bias when making a statement on what someone did or did not say... like come on. StayFree76 ^talk 17:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Because multiple reliable sources are all effectively asking the question: why did you omit this information and misrepresent the "truth" of the situation? Your chief officer is now saying that they would never ever publicly conceal information. Unfortunately, some people disagree Mary Moriarty, chief public defender in Hennepin County, said her office frequently deals with cases where Minneapolis police officers provide official accounts of arrests later proven to be false by video evidence. “Am I at all surprised that the police lied in their report? No,”. There is significant RS coverage of the absence of detail in the initial statement questioning the candour of the statement, and the reasons the initial statement does not align with subsequent coverage; which is why we do also. Koncorde (talk) 17:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

If what ABC.au wrote doesn't make any sense to you, go over to www.abc.au and tell them. What we're doing here at en.wikipedia.org is summarizing secondary sources; this page is for discussing the summary of secondary sources at Killing of George Floyd. If you think that summary of secondary sources can be improved, this is the place to discuss it. If you think the secondary sources themselves don't make sense or are otherwise wrong, this is not the place to discuss it. Lev!vich 17:24, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

i am saying your synthesis should not be on wikipedia. say what they said, then move on. dont insert what you think is relevant. as i mentioned before, i think me liking (loving) big butts is relevant and want that added. i know the sources didnt say that, but i mean, lets be real, we all know it to be. StayFree76 ^talk 17:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think you know what synthesis is. Inserting your love of big butts would not be supported by reliable sources. If however a number of sources suddenly said "It revealed the truth: a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man, George Floyd, and wikipedia user StayFree76 likes big butts" then it would be relevant and supported by RS. Koncorde (talk) 17:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

so how can you reconcile the current statements when compared to WP:Synthesis Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. this is not an explicit statement and is using some implicit [meaning?] understanding of the situation then boldly states it in the wiki as if it mattered. (when has a police report every been super detailed. they arent trying to say anything that can screw them down the road. this is common and normal. the current wording makes it seem like all other police statements are detailed af, when in reality, that is not the case.) this is why using implicit details is dangerous and why it should not be done in the article. are you comfortable with a wiki article functionally calling that PD a liar? if anything, the statement calling them a liar should be attributing to someone, but even so, as i mentioned omitting information is not lying and in the US the 5th amendment guarantees a citizens right to silence (of course this isnt so much the case with the PD report, but americans understand that you only say the minimum necessary so you dont accidentall dig your own grave). StayFree76 ^talk 17:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Neither the secondary sources, nor our article summarizing them, calls anyone a liar. Lev!vich 18:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Easy, we aren't combining different parts to reach or imply a conclusion - to quote: And the footage has exposed in real time how police have historically used "official reports" of controversial incidents to obscure the truth. The sources implicitly state that the truth was not being revealed by the original statement. We are reflecting the absence of that information because it is seen as integral to the story by the reliable sources. The RS discuss how the original statement was "contradicted" by the evidence. They question the absence of critical information. Not war and peace as you suggest is expected. Just the bits that you would think are pertinent to the death of a man in custody that is being filmed by half a dozen people asking the police not to kill him by kneeling on his neck while he begs for his life and dies live on camera. They are questioning when would the transparency expected in a police report appear? You know, rather than worrying about something that might "screw them down the road". You might understand why the police did what they did. The RS however don't care about why the police might want to cover their own arses in the face of (yet another) dead man in custody and a public outcry. Koncorde (talk) 18:27, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

you just said it yourself, The sources implicitly, per WP:Synthesis we cannot use it if ...not explicitly stated by the source. im kinda confused at the push back on this one as you actively stated the current state is in violation of synthesis policy, but argue that it isn't. so does the source explicitly state that? if so, where? StayFree76 ^talk 18:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Typo. I meant explicitly, because I directly quoted it saying so. And the footage has exposed in real time how police have historically used "official reports" of controversial incidents to obscure the truth Koncorde (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

then why doesnt the wiki state that? i think you are mis understanding what explicit means. from [25] fully revealed or expressed without vagueness, implication, or ambiguity : leaving no question as to meaning or intent. my point is, say what the sources say, not what they dont. currently we are saying what they dont say now what the do say. that is the problem. StayFree76 ^talk 19:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

New York Times says But hours later, a 10-minute video taken by a bystander was posted to Facebook, showing a different story than the first police statement or the subsequent update. Neither mentioned what was apparent in the video: a white police officer kneeling on the black man’s neck for several minutes as bystanders and the man himself pleaded for the officer to stop. we say "which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck". ABC AU says Late last month, a Minneapolis police spokesman told reporters that a man had died after he "physically resisted" officers, but "officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and officers noticed that the man was going into medical distress". But then footage of the incident surfaced online and went viral. It revealed the truth: a white police officer had used his knee to pin the neck of an unarmed African-American man, George Floyd, to the ground. we say "which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck". Minnesota Post says Early Tuesday morning, MPD announced in a press release that a man had died after a “medical incident during [a] police interaction.” The press release alleged Floyd had physically resisted officers – something later called into question based on a nearby restaurant’s surveillance footage. “Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress,” the press release said, making no mention of the police officer kneeling on Floyd’s neck. we say "which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck". Koncorde (talk) 19:34, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, the problem I noted can be fixed with deleting a sentence that's not about the neck kneeling, while keeping the point about kneeling on the neck. Here's the paragraph with the suggested deletion as a strike out.

Early on May 26, the Minneapolis Police Department issued a statement ("Man Dies After Medical Incident During Police Interaction")[12] which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck:[72][73] "After Floyd got out [of his car], he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress."[74] Hours later, after witness and security camera video circulating on the internet contradicted that account,[75] the department updated its statement, calling its earlier statement preliminary,[76] and stating that new information had "been made available" and that the FBI was joining the investigation.[74] The four officers were briefly placed on paid administrative leave[76] before being fired later that day.[77]

Bob K31416 (talk) 02:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Ohhh I get it now, the implication is that the quoted portion is what was contradicted. For my part I have no objection to removing the quoted portion as its not really necessary and potentially confusing or carrying unintended implications. That said, I am partial to the "noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress" quote because that's like the understatement of the year, a hell of a way to describe five minutes of a man begging an officer to take his knee off his neck. But I can't really back that personal opinion up with sources. Lev!vich 02:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Contradict can mean "to be in conflict with", as opposed to stating the opposite. I've reworded it.[26]—Bagumba (talk) 12:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources provided don't use the word "conflict with", they openly say "contradict".WaPo: "In violent protest incidents, a theme emerges: Videos contradict police accounts", National Review doesn't say it in the article, but the meta-title says "New Video Appears to Contradict Cops' Claim that George Floyd Resisted Arrest", Newsweek; "The information corroborates what viral video footage released earlier this week indicated and further contradicts details included in the Minneapolis Police Department's original incident report", CNN: "Surveillance video from outside a Minneapolis restaurant appears to contradict police claims that George Floyd resisted arrest before an officer knelt on his neck". The use of the word "conflicted" is reads poorly in that sentence as it generally means the concept of "feelings" being conflicted, rather than facts being at variance. Koncorde (talk) 14:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Would suggest something like this: "Early on May 26, the Minneapolis Police Department issued a statement ("Man Dies After Medical Incident During Police Interaction") which said nothing about Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck.[1][2][3] The MPD stated that "After Floyd got out [of his car], he physically resisted officers. Officers were able to get the suspect into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress."[4] Subsequently eye-witness video and footage from security cameras were circulated on the internet contradicting the MPD's characterisation of the arrest.[5] The department later issued an updated statement, calling its earlier statement preliminary, and that new information had "been made available" with the FBI now joining the investigation.[6][4] The four officers were briefly placed on paid administrative leave[6] before being fired later that day.[7]"

We should avoid using the word conflicted, or conflicting, as that gives the feeling that there were two informal narratives at odds with each other (such as might be used in the sentence "there are conflicting accounts"). Instead the RS are confident enough to use the words "contradict" to infer that there was at the very least a lack of candour in the initial statement with some speculating why that is the case. Additional sources all using the same / similar wording in addition to existing sources.[27][28][29][30][31] Koncorde (talk) 14:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, we should use "contradict" and not "conflict" because that's the word the sources use, and those words mean two different things. I think Koncorde's paragraph in italics above is frankly better-written than the current text we have. I support either of the suggested changes so far (with or without the quote). I'm curious whether there are any new sources that discuss the recently-released bodycam footage and the initial police statement (I'm not aware of any). Lev!vich 15:13, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

FYI, some prior related discussions about "contradict" are at Talk:Killing of George Floyd/Archive 1#Sources for "this claim is contradicted by all video evidence"?? and Talk:Killing of George Floyd/Archive 2#Minneapolis allows police use of neck restraint.. Lev!vich 15:13, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

If we're to remain objective call it "the alleged killing"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The arguments I'm reading:

Any time one person causes the death of another – whether intentionally or not, whether criminally or not – that's a homicide. It's a very broad category. Every murder or manslaughter (of any "degree") is a homicide, but not every homicide is a murder or manslaughter. A killing in self-defense is a homicide. Even an execution pursuant to a judicially imposed sentence of death is a homicide.

Response:

No one has been found convicted of murdering him. Therefore the premise is completely wrong to begin with. A person is considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. This is not a court of public opinion website.

Argument:

In most US jurisdictions the determination of whether or not a death is a homicide is made by a coroner or medical examiner, as a prerequisite to other legal proceedings.

Response:

Yes. It is not a legal declaration, it is an assumption which can lead to investigations and court cases.

Argument:

The medical examiner in Floyd's case determined that his death was, indeed, a homicide – or in common American English parlance, a killing. A homicide becomes, legally, a murder or manslaughter only once someone is convicted in court.

Response:

Yes. The manner of death was ruled homicide, but the exact office that ruled it a homicide also noted that "is not a legal determination of culpability or intent."

EpicMemeGamer (talk) 14:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Killing and murder are not synonymous, nor does a killing have to have culpability or intent.Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

These arguments would only be relevant if the article was titled "murder of George Floyd". But it's not. --Equivamp - talk 14:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

ONo, so much of your above reasoning is equally not applicable, it is only applicable if (under law) a person has not been killed unless someone is found guilty of killing. But "killing" is not illegal.Slatersteven (talk) 14:52, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I am totally sympathetic to the impropriety of the current title, EpicMemeGamer.

331dot—EpicMemeGamer has only made one edit yet you are calling them "disruptive". Furthermore, the existence of a FAQ does not rule out further discussion on the same topic and a discussion of this nature should not be closed 12 minutes after it was opened and the argument that there have been "ten earlier discussions" should be taken as an indication of the validity and importance of the topic being raised. Bus stop (talk) 17:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I am not saying this specific instance was disruptive by itself, but collectively they are. 331dot (talk) 17:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

That's gibberish. We may edit collaboratively but we certainly don't edit collectively. Bus stop (talk) 18:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC)