Talk:Climatic Research Unit email controversy

Hiding the decline/data "trick"

Changed data' to decline/data as hiding the decline is the primary quote. (Data has also been hidden, but that is little known.) DLH (talk) 00:47, 1 December 2009 (UTC) Recommend a section on Hiding the data trick" as a major issue arising from these CRU emails. See How “The Trick” was pulled offDLH (talk) 17:22, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's a reliable source for sure. We'll get right on it. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 17:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

But "any eco-related scare for which the prescription would result in a massive transfer of power to the political class is bogus" applied to AGW is at least doubly wrong, hence right! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Given the widespread MSM discussion of "Mike's Nature trick," it's odd that the only discussion of that "trick" in the Wikipedia article is drawn verbatim from the RealClimate site's damage control effort. If the publications of right-wing pundits and the "denier" blogs (many of them created and maintained by credentialed climatologists who had been frozen out of the referee'd professional journals by way of the CRU correspondents' co-option of the peer review process) are not "reliable sources," how is it that the CRU correspondents' own principal advocacy site has become acceptably "reliable"? 71.125.155.89 (talk) 17:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Mu. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:05, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I think the article eventually needs such a section, but I think it is premature at the moment. I gather that the "trick" is a reference to the need to conjoin instrument based temperature records with dendrology based temperature records. This is a legitimate need, and it is plausible that the mechanism for doing so is both appropriate and described as a "trick". However, it would be nice to see reliable sources discussing this in a NPOV before adding the material. The blogs I've read so far are breathless and biased, and "conclusive" without even a pretense of examining all issues.--SPhilbrickT 19:00, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Steve McIntyre was the IPCC reviewer who explicitly warned the IPCC “don’t cover up the divergence”. See the IPCC documentation: Show the Briffa et al reconstruction through to its end; don’t stop in 1960. Then comment and deal with the “divergence problem” if you need to. Don’t cover up the divergence by truncating this graphic. This was done in IPCC TAR; this was misleading (comment ID #: 309-18) Boris - if you have a better site showing the graphs before / after please provide it. This issue of "hiding the decline" is iconic, core to both the scientific and political controversy, and is most widely known. It needs a major section to describe the development from Brifa 2000 which was cited in the caption to IPCC Fig 2.21, to Jone's email, and the subsequent recent disclosure of the full data that Brifa had deleted in his 2000 figure, and the programmer's commenting dealing with such deletion after 1960 - in the Harry Readme file. Obviously there would be quotes from protagonists, antagonists, and reviewers. The link I gave has the best graphics I have found.DLH (talk) 20:21, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

What specific data were contained in ESR's plot? Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 20:30, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but Watts forgets to mention that the divergence is described in specifics at page 472-473 in Chapter 6 of the AR4 WG1 report. They also specifically note the 1960 cut-off-point. I find it very very hard to call something a "cover-up" when it is described in detail in both the report (and of course also in Briffa et al.(2001), which the AR4 cites) --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 21:05, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Mann claimed: “No researchers in this field have ever, to our knowledge, grafted the thermometer record onto any reconstruction.” In “A good way to deal with a problem” McIntyre notes: “However, although the “real” Briffa reconstruction goes down after 1960, the series in the diagram attributed to “Briffa (1999)” goes up. The decline in the Briffa reconstruction is not shown; it is hidden.” However, in: How “The Trick” was pulled off McIntyre notes: “There is no mention in the IPCC report of the deletion of Briffa reconstruction data after 1960. Nor is there any mention of the deletion in the IPCC reference (Briffa 2000) nor, for that matter, in the article cited by Gavin Schmidt (Briffa et al 1998). These articles report the divergence, but do not delete it. (Briffa et al 2001 does delete the post-1960 values.)”DLH (talk) 02:39, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but the statement by McI that "There is no mention in the IPCC report of the deletion of Briffa reconstruction data after 1960" is quite simply wrong, please check page 473 like i asked...(i quote (emph. mine)):

Briffa et al. (2001) specifically excluded the post-1960 data in their calibration against instrumental records, to avoid biasing the estimation of the earlier reconstructions (hence they are not shown in Figure 6.10), implicitly assuming that the ‘divergence’ was a uniquely recent phenomenon, as has also been argued by Cook et al. (2004a).

A thing like this is one reason amongst others that blog postings aren't reliable sources on Wikipedia. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:36, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Right! Blogs are not acceptable, neither are ad hominems--rndhyd.68.180.38.25 (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, that does not fly. You would then have to delete ALL RealClimate references. The whole CRU emails explosion was led by WattsUpWithThat, with a 350% increase in traffic, followed by a 500% increase at climateaudit.org and similar tripling at realclimate.org and climatedepot.com. MSM came in very late. McIntyre was an IPCC reviewer and his objections were documented at IPCC. etc.DLH (talk) 00:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Note McIntyre explicitly distinguishes in his comments between (Brifa 1999), (Bifra 2000) and Bifra(2001). See the original posts.DLH (talk) 02:16, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Boris - Thanks for the ref. "hiding the decline" is a direct quote from Jone's email, not whether we think it is hidden or not. As you note, the IPCC WG1 Ch 6 p 472-473 states: ““Several analyses of ring width and ring density chronologies, with otherwise well established sensitivity to temperature, have shown that they do not emulate the general warming trend evident in instrumental temperature records over recent decades” . . . “In their large-scale reconstructions based on tree ring density data, Briffa et al. (2001) specifically excluded the post-1960 data in their calibration against instrumental records, to avoid biasing the estimation of the earlier reconstructions (hence they are not shown in Figure 6.10), implicitly assuming that the ‘divergence’was a uniquely recent phenomenon” That IPCC statement vs McIntyre is the heart of the statistical or scientific issue -(i.e. is this cherry picking or legitimate?) These are statements that need to be quoted or summarized together with select graphs.DLH (talk) 03:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

See above: IPCC reviewer: “don’t cover up the divergence” IPCC Reviewer McIntyre statement.DLH (talk) 03:30, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

All of this is original research, and none of it is covered in reliable sources. Therefore it doesn't belong here. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 13:39, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Don't understand how you read that. All the material is published/posted by others, none of my posts. I was listing materials to summarize.DLH (talk) 02:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Are blogs acceptable or unacceptable sources of information for Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LVAustrian (talk • contribs) 18:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem here is that the skeptical spin on "Mike's nature trick" and "Hide the decline" aren't really making much serious talk. And if you're arguing that we should take them seriously because, despite this, some blogs mention them, well this isn't going to work. If on the other hand you had a reputable blog giving an opinion of a blog owner whose opinion independently would merit comment, then it might end up in Wikipedia. --TS 02:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

No, the real "problem" is that "the heart of the statistical or scientific issue" isn't relevant to this article; all that is relevant is what the words refer to, not various parties' views about the referent, and no reliable source questions that those words refer to what climate scientists say they refer to. -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 23:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

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• Our section on "Hide the decline" presently ends with the RC rebuttal, arguably a WP:primary source. I propose to rebut this with Climate Audit's “A good way to deal with a problem” (quoting Gavin Schmidt), and "Still hiding the decline" the best rebuttals I've seen online.

Samples: "While they’ve [Phil Jones & CRU] used the actual Briffa reconstruction after 1960 in making their smooth, even now, they deleted values after 1960 so that the full measure of the decline of the Briffa reconstruction is hidden." (2nd CA source)

"The decline in the Briffa reconstruction is not shown; it is hidden. Gavin Schmidt of real climate says that this is “a good way to deal with a problem”. I disagree (and recorded this disagreement in a related context in connection with IPCC AR4 as discussed elsewhere.) (1st CA source)

Perhaps we should quote McIntyre's IPCC review remarks (and Briffa's comments rejecting same) as well -- public records.

Ordinarily we prefer citing secondary sources. However, it seems to me that rebutting a primary (RC) with another primary (CA) would be appropriate. --Pete Tillman (talk) 19:04, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I have added a secondary source (Michael Mann reported in a US newspaper) for the claim that the "decline" discussed concerned a decline in tree ring metrics. --TS 04:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Or why not cut to the chase and and demand that all sources are "peer reviewed by the scientists" - the "scientists" being the small group of politicos writing the emails. And what is more, realclimate is simply the mouth piece for these self-reviewing "climate scientists", so when it comes down to it, their views are only the veiws of yet another bunch of bloggers anyway - the only difference is they get paid to produce their blogs! So, can we please stop this crap about who is saying what (remember wikipedia is only really another blog!) and use the normal criteria of whether enough people are reporting something to make it notable. Isonomia (talk) 10:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Mu. --TS 10:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Climategate is the clear public consensus - please change the name.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Despite this and several other discussions (see archive 5 and archive 6) no consensus has emerged to rename the articlee.

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Everyone including the very pro-warming BBC are now calling these event "climategate". [6]. "Climategate" (as a single word) now has 1.5million hits on google. In contrast: "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident" has a mere 3,870 hits. That is nearly 400:1 against the current name.

To put that in context I wondered what some editors here considered to be "notable" and so googled 'william connolley' (returning any page with these two words anywhere) to see how many google hits warrant the inclusion of the William Connolley article. I found a mere 28,500 hits 3x as many as for the title! (Of which 8830 appear for "william connolley climategate" - which to be honest must be just random noise as there are 9120 for "william connolley bananas"). Isonomia (talk) 15:53, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

That isn't actually noise. His controversial and sordid relationship with bananas is well documented, and attempts to cover it up by Dole and Chiquita have prevented it from being accepted by the mainstream. Ignignot (talk) 15:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Strongly reject, per Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Controversy_and_scandal and WP:GOOGLE. Hipocrite (talk) 15:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Hip and for the reason he cited. While the term "Climategate" is probably the most widely used name for the subject matter of this page, the subject matter of the page is still rapidly evolving. It simply has not settled sufficiently into the historical record. However, I think it's only a matter of time before someone issues a formal admonition, gets fired, or resigns. Then the argument for changing the name will become more compelling with a colorable scandal to point to. Evensong (talk) 17:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. There is no point speculating. A lot of very excitable right-wingers are jumping up and down with their hair on fire at the moment, but that does not make it a "colorable scandal". Even if any resignations or sackings occur the article is not going to get renamed "Climategate" for the reasons I set out above - it's a violation of NPOV. The policy issue will not go away. When Dan Rather resigned after the Killian documents controversy, our article on the subject was not renamed to the POV term "Rathergate". Likewise when Alberto Gonzalez resigned following the Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy we did not rename that article "Attorneygate". -- ChrisO (talk) 18:27, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

The rule we've cited is not as absolute as you appear to believe, and, therefore, the future name of this article is probably not as immutable as you predict. However, we can both agree that now is absolutely not the time to change the article to "Climategate", and that is all that really matters when addressing present edits. Evensong (talk) 19:43, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I was responsible for writing that particular policy years ago; it's been stable for a long time and is standard practice now, so I think I'm fairly well placed to say what the policy means. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:40, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Good of you to tell us, CrisO! Where ambiguities of text abound, documents are construed against the draftsman. Evensong (talk) 18:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is not going to be renamed to your suggested title, as it would not be compatible with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Article names are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality to satisfy Wikipedia's requirements. The use of "scandal" or "-gate" frequently implies wrongdoing or a particular point of view. Such terms are words to avoid and should not be used in article titles. For a point of comparison, the Wikipedia article on the "Rathergate" incident is titled Killian documents controversy. That sort of descriptive titling is our standing approach. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:10, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm neutral on this, I wholly agree with the en.W policy on -gate, I think it's "dumb" how the media is wont to tack on a suffix from a 37-year old scandal onto new scandals (I guess there may be some link to the word watershed and its meaning, thence stemming from Watergate, which makes this so easy for journos to do), I agree nevertheless that the search term is Climategate because that's what most sources are now calling it but meanwhile, Climategate redirects here so I think it highly unlikely many (if any) readers are being lost. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It's simply because it's become a shorthand for lazy journalists and it's convenient for use when space or wordcounts are tight. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Even used in HuffingtonPost ... it appears to now be exceptionally common (hundreds of current news stories use the term). Collect (talk) 16:21, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Exponential growth -- Google now claims 16+ million hits on the single word. Collect (talk) 16:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many sources use it. "Rathergate" is widely used as well but we don't use it because it's not a neutral or encyclopedic title for an article. Please see WP:GOOGLE. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:26, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

BBC radio this morning reported on developments but didn't use it - if it was indispensable they would have. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:29, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm dubious about that assertion, but as I said above it doesn't actually matter who uses it. We have a clear policy against using such terms as article titles and our standing practice is not to do so. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Looking at Google news searchable stories from the last week on "University of East Anglia", "Climate Research Unit", "Phil Jones", etc. with either +climategate or -climategate suggests that about 40-50% of news stories are using the term right now. So, it certainly isn't an indispensable title. Whether it is the best possible choice of title, I don't know. Dragons flight (talk) 16:36, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Note that Google News picks up a lot of unreliable sources (blogs, fringe websites, etc) so this is not a reliable indicator of how mainstream the term is. It's been promoted heavily by anti-science activists in the blogosphere (and originated with them); your Google News search will be picking up a lot of that traffic. -- ChrisO (talk) 16:44, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I know this will go exactly nowhere, but I would like to suggest Climate Research Unit science controversy. Surveying the reliable sources and the reaction to date, this story really isn't whether or not the purloined data was "hacked" or not (IMHO, it's far more likely to have been intentionally leaked by someone involved in responding to an FOIA request). The story that is forming is the impact this event will have on the scientific community and what harm may have been done to the scientific process itself. While different sides are saying predictable things about what the leaked information says about AGW, all sides seem to generally concur that the materials are an indictment of the way Science itself was practiced by CRU and others at the center of this episode. I don't think it's at all surprising that the first concrete reactions from this event have been administrative actions taken by CRU and Penn State against the main individuals involved. Clearly, these actions are in response to the perception of poor science. Ronnotel (talk) 16:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

They've neither admitted nor implied any wrongdoing. The investigations are the university administrations covering their asses. Ignignot (talk) 17:07, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes and I guess one should say that the title we have, Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident , is indeed unsupported. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

We have to wait to see whether the term catches on. At present the story itself is more often covered by sources like Fox News and is attracting little mainstream media interest. When the term "ClimateGate" is used it is usually in quotations, indicating that it is not yet generally accepted, and may never be. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:41, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Mainstream media -- as in New York Times [7] "A longtime observer of climate science cautions those on all sides of " climategate" to prepare for less certainty as answers emerge" [8] "as some have put it, 'Climategate'" and so on. BTW, RS/N routinely finds Fox to be an RS, so I am unsure why it is not accepted here. Washington Post [9] etc. Use of a word in quotation marks does not mean anything more than it was not a word in prior common usage. Collect (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Collect, of the sources you cite, two of them say that some people call it "Climategate" while the third source is actually from a posting by a reader of the NYT. So far MSM do not accept the name and imply that it is not generally accepted. The Four Deuces (talk) 05:47, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

There were millions of Google results for 'Climategate' before this hacking incident took place. The term has been in use for some time. Dynablaster (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

It was 1.3 million this morning when I first thought of posting, it is now 1,580,000. That's 280,000 hits in nine hours. Isonomia (talk) 19:19, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Funny, I get 21 million. Either something is weird, or google hits are not a panacea for determining such trends. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

At the moment the only thing which is certain is that CRU and emails were involved. We'll have to wait to see what the last part of the event should be named. It has been widely discussed whether this should be called a hack or whistleblowing event, but one or two small pieces of information are unknown. What else develops is more unknown. At the moment we're watching side effects of the Watergate burglary appearing, without enough information to write Watergate scandal. The Climategate redirect ensures that the web searchers can find this article, and beyond that we'll have to see. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Now in major media sans quotation marks in headers. [10] Kansas City Star. [11] Calgary Sun. [12] Calgary Herald. [13] Boston Globe. [14] Forbes. [15] Atlantic. [16] Telegraph. [17] Even AccuWeather. Collect (talk) 20:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you're wasting your time. Article naming is determined by Wikipedia's policies alone. It doesn't matter how many sources you find - if the name violates NPOV, which it does, it's not going to be used, period. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Current title is atrocious. Can't we do better than "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident"? Henrybaker (talk) 06:44, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Face facts- The name is CLIMATEGATE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu_ok37HDuE

(36,506 views)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ydo2Mwnwpac

(96,805 views)

"Climategate now gets 20 million hits on Google. If you google in 'global warming' you only get 10 million." - Dr. Pat Michaels. You can watch him being interviewed here, where this quote is taken from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTP4NSPdZWs

If anyone has evidence of a more popular name for this scandal, they should 'put up or shut up'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.157.210 (talk) 22:30, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree that the name is Climategate.

That being said, if a reader knew very little about the ordeal and wanted read two different encyclopedia's to get a better understanding about it; when compared side-by-side, it seems like Wikipedia is discussing a different event than Conservapedia.

• Wikipedia - 'Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident' <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatic_Research_Unit_e-mail_hacking_incident>
• Conservapedia - 'Climategate' <http://conservapedia.com/Climategate>

Based on the information presented, it seems like Wikipedia is discussing the controversy about the incident which released the data, while Conservapedia is discussing Climategate. So, in that case, maybe the name of this article doesn't need to change. This article goes no further into the subject than the incident where the data was released on November 19. It's not a bad thing, it's just not talking about Climategate - thus, shouldn't be called Climategate. 98.232.27.135 (talk) 04:54, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Then why does Wikipedia redirect "Climategate" to this article? As it stands, this is THE Climategate-esk article on Wikipedia, therefore its name needs to change to Climategate. If anything, "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident" should be a section within this article and not the article itself. -MrGuy

Wikipedia does have deeper coverage of the subject, but it's not in the English version of the article. See the other languages. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The ongoing investigations into this incident and the ramifications of it are clearly being called "Climategate" in all references and news articles except here. The article name really ought to be changed before NOT using it becomes a violation of NPOV. --Textmatters (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident, seriously? This is what we're calling this on Wikipedia? Maybe we should change the article title for the color Blue to "Yellow/Green Color Mixture". Come on guys, this is Climategate. ==DioseeWarrior== —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.178.22.16 (talk) 01:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"Climategate" is not going to happen, given the balance of editors on this talk page, and the hyperbolic nature of the title. There are more worthy areas where effort can be focused to balance the article. I posted a topic about this, but it appears to have since been archived - why is "e-mail" still a part of the article's title? Beyond emails, much of the content which was leaked and has been a matter of dispute is (to be blunt) absolutely wretched climate model code and documentation which suggests efforts to shape these models to produce artificial results that tow the AGW line. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)}

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Bring in some of the more thoughtful analysis of the politics and sociology?

We're starting to see some more thoughtful analysis of the politics and sociology of this. For example, Mike Hulme, "The Science and Politics of Climate Change," The Wall Street Journal Online, December 4, 2009. Granted, what we see now will be commentary rather than sociological research, but some of it is pretty good and the commentators are getting enough perspective that they're beginning to think through how it may have all happened and what the implications are. It would be important to stick to newspapers of record, clearly identify who the commentators are, and make sure we include a mix that includes all sides, but it could turn the article into something more useful than "he said . . . she said." EastTN (talk) 16:12, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not really politics (at least not political science analysis) and not sociology. I'm sure there will be sociologists of science poring over this but they won't publish for another six months at least. We're going to have a large number of people invited by good quality media sources to comment - for example Jonathon Porritt was on BBC radio this morning - and have to decide how to deal with all of them. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:17, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I grant that it's not the kind of research that a political science professor would do in an academic setting, but there's a great deal of good political reporting and analysis that's provided by newspapers of record and leading magazines. Those can be as useful for articles on politics as the more academic sources. I think this is similar situation. I recognize how difficult it may be. My personal rule of thumb would be that we'd want to look for reports and commentary in leading newspapers and reputable magazines, articles that are focused on analyzing the debate rather than participating in the debate, and we'd want to bend over backwards to try and report all perspectives in a neutral way. I don't know if we could get to consensus, but if we could I do think it would result in a better article. As an aside, what did Porritt have to say? Was it useful, and is it something we can find in text form somewhere? EastTN (talk) 16:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we should start a "Reaction to the Reaction" section!

All joking aside, The NYT Freakonomics Blog also has a pretty broad look at the reactions and analysis. Ignignot (talk) 16:23, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree - that's a nice one. I didn't mention it because it was a blog, but perhaps it could make the cut since it's essentially a standing column sponsored by the NYT. This one might be a possibility as well: Bryan Walsh, "As Climate Summit Nears, Skeptics Gain Traction," Time, December 2, 2009. It will be tricky to get to a consensus on sources, but I do think that we're starting to see some analysis that could strengthen the article if it's handled well. EastTN (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's another one that, while not quite as much focused on the political and sociological analysis, is pretty interesting in the way it tries to handle things: Peter Kelemen, "What East Anglia's E-mails Really Tell Us About Climate Change," Popular Mechanics, December 1, 2009. EastTN (talk) 16:37, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

As I recall, Porritt just said that the global warming scientific consensus held. It was on the radio, therefore ephemeral, and really just an example of how much here-today-gone-tomorrow commentary is out there. The BBC News website is where to look for the main developments and commentary. An article in Time should in principle be notable comment. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:50, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the BBC site. If you get a chance, take a look at the WSJ article by Hulme ("The Science and Politics of Climate Change"); I thought it was quite good, and it's what got me thinking about this. EastTN (talk) 18:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

There's another from the Christian Science Monitor: Peter N. Spotts, "‘Climategate’: leaked emails push scientists toward transparency," Christian Science Monitor, December 4, 2009 EastTN (talk) 19:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Here's another interesting analysis of how the emails are playing out: David A. Fahrenthold and Juliet Eilperin, "In e-mails, science of warming is hot debate," The Washington Post, December 5, 2009.EastTN (talk) 21:19, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Lord Monckton has just given a lecture summarizing the revelations of Climategate that ought to be made part of this article. Editors affiliated with those named in this scandal should also stand aside as Phil Jones has, and refrain from making any further edits to this article. Here are the links to his lecture:

Lord Monckton on Climategate at The 2nd International Climate Conference, Dec. 4, 2009 - 1of4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h1ejx_WEYo&annotation_id=annotation_728611&feature=iv

Lord Monckton on Climategate at The 2nd International Climate Conference, Dec. 4, 2009 - 2of4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfB4PdBCfBI

Lord Monckton on Climategate at The 2nd International Climate Conference, Dec. 4, 2009 - 3of4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y5zxdV0Nw8&annotation_id=annotation_655838&feature=iv

Lord Monckton on Climategate at The 2nd International Climate Conference, Dec. 4, 2009 - 4of4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mno2VrxamAk&annotation_id=annotation_516660&feature=iv —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.157.210 (talk) 17:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Protected page edit request

{{editprotected}} (awaiting consensus from discussion below before submitting)

Proposed edit

Please could you insert the following (minus the quote box)as the third paragraph in the Reactions to the incident section - i.e. as a new paragraph after the text "talks at the December, 2009 Copenhagen global climate summit." and before the text "The American Association for the Advancement of Science has". If inserting it near the top of that section (warranted, I believe, as an investigation by the United Nations seems more noteworthy than reactions from most other bodies) isn't acceptable please place it at the bottom of that section instead. It's unlikely to be controversial as it's a factual statement that mirrors the text used in multiple references. Brumski (talk) 20:10, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The United Nations announced an investigation by its Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change into claims that the CRU manipulated data to favour the conclusion that human activity is driving global warming, saying that the claims were serious and they wanted them investigated.

References

(to enable them to display correctly in the proposed edit above)

Discussion

The references lead to something called www.ft.com? but I agree that reactions from the UN should go into the article, as discussed before. Before requesting that the page be modified it's better to wait a little so others have a chance to comment to see if there is consensus.
—Apis (talk) 20:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I had linked both references to the same Financial Times story. I've corrected the Mail on Sunday reference so that it now links to the correct article on their site and added another reference from The Guardian. I've placed the editprotected template back as it only suggests discussion "If the proposed edit might be controversial". Given that the proposed edit is a simple factual statement, is a direct mirror of the phrasing used in multiple highly respected mainstream news sources and that you and others agree it should be in the article it seems impossible for the proposed addition to be controversial. In addition, the reviewing admin will assess it's controversy value before adding it and will refuse to add it if it is or can be controversial. Allow them to reject the proposed edit if you think it isn't warranted. Brumski (talk) 21:02, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Please gain consensus before using the edit protected template. Restore when consensus exists on exact wording. -Atmoz (talk) 21:07, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Could you both (and anyone else) please state what is controversial about the requested edit, what your objections to it are and what needs changing to accommodate those objections? Brumski (talk) 21:36, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

See the discussion under "stagnation" above. Adding what RP said is fine; adding the FT's misrepresentation of it isn't William M. Connolley (talk) 22:56, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I see the controversy now, thanks for that. The 4 well known WP:RS that I provided and an additional 2 that I have added say the following - is that not sufficient? "The UN panel on climate change is to investigate claims that UK scientists manipulated global warming data to support a theory that it is man-made" Mail On Sunday. "The head of the UN's climate science body says claims that UK scientists manipulated data on global warming should be investigated" BBC. "The United Nations climate change panel is to investigate claims that scientists at the University of East Anglia in the UK manipulated data to support the case that human activity is driving global warming" Financial Times. "Claims that scientists at the University of East Anglia manipulated global warming data to support a theory of man-made climate change will be investigated by a United Nations panel, the university chairman said today" The Guardian. Also "The United Nations panel on climate change has promised to investigate claims that scientists at a British university deliberately manipulated data to support the theory of man-made global warming" The Times and "The United Nations panel on climate change is to investigate claims that scientists at the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit manipulated global warming data " The Telegraph. Brumski (talk) 23:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Repeating the same wrong words just won't help. You need to engage with the objections already raised William M. Connolley (talk) 23:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I quoted the words to demonstrate that the proposed edit directly reflects the articles in 9 WP:RS. I believe I have engaged with the objections raised previously - although there was a lot of text there were only two objections raised by two people. 1) One was Apis who mentioned "I generally agree that we should alow for the dust to settle a little so we get more than one news source to compare from". There are now 9 sources instead of one, so there is more than one news source so that objection doesn't seem valid any more. 2) The other objection was from you and was "The BBC seems to have got it wrong" (supported by an assertion that the BBC routinely gets things wrong, with an example) and that "We are not, however, obliged to repeat their mistakes" and that by allowing the story to settle we will avoid repeating the BBC's mistake. So, your objection seems to be essentially that the BBC is wrong. To help with that objection (which I didn't know about when I compiled the text - i.e. I did not use the BBC as a source) I have provided 8 additional well respected WP:RS sources. There are 9 sources now included in the proposed text and that proposed text directly mirrors what they say: it's a strictly factual statement that reflects the sources and there is no POV to it. Is that a correct assessment of the objections and if not, can you restate or re-summarize them? If you have any additional objections can you state them as well. Thanks.Brumski (talk) 00:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I personally would leave out rather problematic words "...to favour the conclusion that human activity is driving global warming". To me it seems these are header/lead words added by media, however RS's. I short, the words are: imho not needed, as header text not worthy material to wiki and, just creating needless debate here. With simpler facts we should add this and also UEA own investigation announcement into article. Just my 2 eurocents. --J. Sketter (talk) 06:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Also I'd consider adding the reasons for these 2 investigations being done (credibility & reputition of these institutions). --J. Sketter (talk) 06:22, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

---

I've been trying to find the actual interview online, it apears to be made by this radio program: The Report but it won't be available online until 20:00 Thursday 10 December 2009... Ah, but now I found a snippet on the BBC News Briefing 4 December 2009. As far as I can tell he says:

"We certainly will go into the whole lot and then as I said we will take a position on it. We certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet [unclear] swept under the carpet. This is a serious issue and we certainly will look into it in detail"

The BBC News article quotes him as:

"We will certainly go into the whole lot and then we will take a position on it," he said.

"We certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet. This is a serious issue and we will look into it in detail."

Well, what can you say, crap journalists can't even get their quotes right. It looks like the IPCC has only made the following official statements so far:

• Statement by the IPCC Chairman
• Further elaboration by IPCC Working Group I

BBC might have 'overstated' what he said. If we want to include this now, I suggest we write something like:

IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri said that the IPCC "certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet", it's a serious issue and they will look into it in detail before taking a position on it. However he has also stressed that "the processes in the IPCC are so robust, so inclusive, that even if an author or two has a particular bias it is completely unlikely that bias will find its way into the IPCC report".

Any thoughts?
—Apis (talk) 06:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree this is an important distinction people often miss (not just here, there was a similar issue in the Swiss Minaret controversy article for example). There's a difference between an official statement from the IPCC or another organisation, a statement made by an individual on behalf of the organisation/representing the organisation and a personal statement from someone high up in an organisation but who isn't claiming everything he's saying is the official view of the organisation. An official statement would usually be clearly identified as being an official statement. Something someone says on radio is unlikely to be an official statement but could be made on behalf of the organisation or could simply be personal comments. We need to clearly differentiate the three when writing Nil Einne (talk) 09:23, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I've added an additional reference from the Wall Street Journal to my proposed edit above. I don't think there is a basis in policy for deciding that 11 reliable secondary sources are wrong and that, because of that, 1 primary source should be interpreted by Wikipedia editors and used in place of those sources. Additionally, asserting that the BBC has made a mistake and that 10 reliable secondary sources have copied that mistake is original research and unsupported, except by a rhetorical argument that journalists are crap, based on something as weak as the difference between "as I said" and "he said". Could you include the text "The chairman of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change" at the start, and "he wants them investigated" somewhere in the text and adjust your current quote to "we certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet". Brumski (talk) 11:39, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The UN IPCC statement is obviously important and deserves inclusion. While it is a reaction, I beleive it belongs more appropriately in the call for inquiries section, as it is a call for an inquity. I suggest a level 3 subsection 3.2. I'm struggling with the exact placement. Chronologically, it occurred after the evetns summarized int he "East Anglia response" subsection, so belongs after. In terms of layout, it might be better to have the discussion of various calls for inquiry, followed at the end by a response section. In the interest of addressing this in small increments, I propose a small subsection after the response section, then, once East Anglia responds to the UN call, the response section can be moved to the end.

I note that Brumski added quite a few references. I interpret that number as attempting to insure that this was getting broad coverage. However, I don't think we should clutter the article with that many references, even though Brunski obviously went to some effort.

My proposal is to include two references, the BBC reference for the main point, and the Times for a quote (although the most relevant quote is in both references, there's some value to showing this is not a one-off article.)

Picking up on the point that this isn't an official UN announcement, I'll modify my proposal as follows, although still believing it belongs as a subsection under inquiries:

===IPCC promises investigation===
Dr Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change(IPCC) promises an investigation into claims that the CRU manipulated data to favour the conclusion that human activity is driving global warming.Pachauri stated, "We certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet. This is a serious issue and we will look into it in detail."

References

why is this not added to the article? 93.86.205.97 (talk) 19:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Added, Tom Harrison ^Talk 19:25, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps because we are currently discussing the precise wording?
—Apis (talk) 22:26, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I've tried to include Brumski's sugestions, wich I think are good:

The chairman of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Rajendra Pachauri said that "we certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet", and that it was a serious issue and they will look into it in detail before taking a position on it. However he has also stressed that "the processes in the IPCC are so robust, so inclusive, that even if an author or two has a particular bias it is completely unlikely that bias will find its way into the IPCC report".

I didn't do a very good job at motivating my version. I believed it was clear from the other context I presented. (The "crap" comment wasn't meant as motivation, it was just an observation. I just think it's bad when a journalist can't even be bothered to quote properly.) What Brumski say about sources isn't true. It was the BBC radio 4 news, a secondary source (although radio is not a good source for wikipedia for technical reasons, so it should be avoided in the article). Although it was the radio interview that the BBC article refers to. I also strongly object to any original research, but there is certainly no policy that we should include things we think are wrong, even if published by a RS. Apparently, even a RS can get it wrong sometimes. The IPCC doesn't appear to have made any official statements about it. I simply think we should avoid saying they have, and stick to what Rajendra Pachauri actually said (as supported by the source). No original research, just be careful about what we say and how we do it.

I think it's very important that the second qoute (or somthing similar) is also included, since that is the main point Rajendra Pachauri has been making, and it's also what is said in the official statements from the IPCC, both by himself and by IPCC WG-I. Maybe we should elaborate more on that?
—Apis (talk) 22:26, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Apis that it's important that the second part of the quote (or similar) is added - it's important for WP:NPOV. I would recommend adding it to the current text that is there already [18] rather than replacing that text with your proposal immediately above, essentially because I want "UN", "IPCC" (both as their full names) and "investigation" to remain in the text. If you're looking to add new text w.r.t. the UN response there is also Yvo de Boer's response [19] (this is not my opinion that you should expand it, just a source suggestion if you do: it shows two significant views by an important figure with respect to climate change in the UN; that the "correspondence looks very bad" and also why it looks bad, and also a defence of the review process). Brumski (talk) 15:13, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The above edit wasn't bad, but again it is slanted way too far against the sceptics so I added the sentence about Saudi Arabia.

{{quote box2 |width=100% | bgcolor=white |align=left |halign=left | salign=left | fontsize=100% | quote= The chairman of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Rajendra Pachauri said that "we certainly don't want to brush anything under the carpet", and that it was a serious issue and they will look into it in detail before taking a position on it. However he has also stressed that "the processes in the IPCC are so robust, so inclusive, that even if an author or two has a particular bias it is completely unlikely that bias will find its way into the IPCC report". However Saudi Arabia has requested an "independent investigation" at the [[United Nations Climate Change Conference 2009 ]]

--138.162.8.58 (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The comments from the Saudis should be mentioned, no doubt, but not here. I will try to add the other IPCC and Rajendra Pachauri statement to the existing text then. Not easy to discuss this wile some edit the article while ignoring discussion and so much BS going on elsewhere, but I can live with this solution.
—Apis (talk) 02:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Have included statements made by RKP and WGI, still not happy with the wording of the first paragraph in the article; it reflects the BBC news piece, is possibly wrong, and doesn't fit in to our article.
—Apis (talk) 09:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Why is this quote not included in the article?

Professor Phil Jones, the head of the Climate Research Unit, stated:

"If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I’ll delete the file rather than send to anyone."

Why is this quote not included in the article?

Grundle2600 (talk) 19:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

My own opinion is that this sounds like an idle boast, not connected to any specific event. While there are concerns that some information is missing, the relatively recent admissions of loss of data relate to time frames predating his statement. Further, the known losses of information in the 80's appear to be related to storage requirements, rather than attempts to hide data. (Not saying the decisions were good, just that the rationale seems to be unrelated to the quote.) If an investigation confirms that he did delete files without adequate cause, the statement may come back to bite him, but I think we need more to make it anything other than unfortunate wording. Finally, he refers to a "file" but without more specificity, it isn't clear what he is talking about.--SPhilbrickT 19:48, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

The article is supposed to be about facts, not your opinion. Grundle2600 (talk) 22:40, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I do think that something regarding the how the e-mail authors discuss the Freedom of Information Act inquiries should be added at some point to the E-mail section. This is certainly one of the hot topics and Muir Russell will be investigating how the CRU responded to FOIA requests. Any such addition or quote would need to come from a WP:Reliable Source (Fox is OK but the NY Times or a British source would be best methinks) and we would want to add some sort of balancing here's-one-way-to-think-about-it-quote from the authors or other reputable sources. Madman (talk) 00:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's not neutral to cherry-pick quotes from the emails to imply some ones guilt. If there is more to write about, like a court case, then we might be able to elaborate.
—Apis (talk) 00:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting that we cherry-pick quotes, and we certainly shouldn't go into the archives outselves, but several of these e-mails (maybe 1%, if that's several) have been widely discussed in the press and the article should mention those particular e-mails. There're 3 e-mails highlighted in the artcle now and I bet we'll have 5 or 6 eventually. Madman (talk) 00:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not happy about the email quotes. There is still just speculation and accusations, and these are stolen emails. Still there might be some justification for trying to illustrate what some of the accusations are about. But simply adding the quotes without context or at least some response from the author isn't neutral. It's difficult to give a fair representation when selecting 1 quote from 1 private email out of more than 1000 from a period of over 10 years. Also worth to keep in mind that Wikipedia isn't investigative journalism, our goal isn't to expose some injustice, or present up to date news. To me it makes more sense to wait and see if there is something more to these accusations.
—Apis (talk) 01:44, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The entire reaction section is filled with cherry-picked quotes, most of which diminish the severity of this scandal, and the lies by the scientists in question. The quote should be included 03:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.136.29 (talk)

We should cover this as reliable sources do. If we can find some reliable sources which cover this quote, then it should be included. If Jones or someone else has explained or provided context regarding it, that belongs in here as well. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 04:51, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Here are a few reliable sources that we can use: A climate scandal, or is it just hot air?, Climate emails hacked, published, Who's to blame for Climategate?, U.K. Climate Scientist Steps Down After E-Mail Flap. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

BTW, the first article I listed above from the New Zealand Herald is particularly good at examining the content of the e-mails. I would prefer a little more depth, but it's one of the best articles about the e-mail content I've read so far. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 06:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

[20] is probably a better link to the NZ Herald article since it doesn't open a print window on many browsers Nil Einne (talk) 06:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I fixed the URL in my previous post. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 06:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Because there's no way to make it look like it's no big deal, which unfortunately is what this article is trying to do when it comes to this whole issue. Counteraction (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Destruction of files seems to be one of the more commonly reported things in this whole affair; if there's some specific email that is being singled out in the mainstream press we should include it. Evercat (talk) 13:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I came to this talk page specifically to look for the reason for non inclusion of FOI. This particular issue has been widely reported and discussed by media. Non inclusion of this issue would give an appearance of censorship against sceptic side. Vapour (talk) 14:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, articles don't write themselves; someone needs to seize the initiative and add it. Evercat (talk) 18:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

So, even though the whole corpus of stolen material was cherry picked by the "sceptic side" and from that a few extra-juicy (and easy to misrepresent) quotes were selected and repeatedly broadcast by "the sceptic side", not including all of their picks gives the appearance of "censorship" of the "sceptic side". Got it. -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 00:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Naturally, the FOI (and other) concerns should be mentioned in the article. What I don't like is the inclusion of quotes from the e-mails unless there is some very good reason for doing so. In my opinion it adds nothing to the article. It neither proves or disproves innocence, and it's arguably unethical.
—Apis (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the links everyone. Grundle2600 (talk) 20:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

BBC: CRU's programming 'way below expected standards'

link Grundle2600 (talk) 22:39, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe at some point more material on the non-e-mail files should be added to the article. As usual, we will need to source it and should offer counterbalancing or explanatory material. Care to post a proposal to this thread?? Madman (talk) 00:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

BBC News is definitely a WP:RS. Do we have any other reliable sources we can use for this content? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 05:30, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

[21][22] -- SEWilco (talk) 08:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, SEWilco. The first looks good, but the second appears to be an opinion piece. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:11, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur that we need to add coverage of the non e-mail contents. The first cite is best in terms of coverage, but as a video, not preferred. The NYT cite is professionally done, but only tangentially mentions the point. The Sun piece is very on point, but a hastily thrown together opinion piece. I'm honestly torn which of the three would be best. Maybe there will be something better soon.--SPhilbrickT 15:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The third item is similar to a movie review which includes the reviewer's opinion. I included the third one because the author is labeled as a columnist, thus is being labeled has having an ongoing relationship with the paper. This is confirmed by our Toronto Sun article which states that Lorrie Goldstein used to be the editor of the paper and is now "Senior Associate Editor, columnist". So it's an opinion by a senior staffer who used to be head editor and knows the requirements for news. This is labeled as being a column, so it includes the author's opinions. It is not labeled as being an official editorial so we can't refer to it as being the paper's official position. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:25, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Specific E-mail copyright violation

Isn't posting the text of the E-mails a copyright violation, without the permission of the copyright holder (probably the authors, but possibly the authors' employers)? Perhaps not, for the purpose of commentary, but we may need to be careful. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:51, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

nope, it was published by news sources. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 01:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Just because it's Fair use for them, it doesn't mean it's WP:Fair use for us. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

shall we consult an Intelectual Property lawyer? 93.86.205.97 (talk) 01:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

i see there's no need. Wikipedia:Fair_use#Applied_to_Wikipedia 93.86.205.97 (talk) 01:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

My understanding of copyright is that in general the copyright belongs to that person who introduces the "creative step" in the work. That should mean that the email writer owns copyright in their own emails. However, employment contracts may claim to assign copyright to the employer. I'm not sure of US law, but in the UK we have the human rights act which allows freedom of speech (reportedly) particularly for journalistic actions. This should allow "free reporting" where there is a compelling need for journalistic purposes. Obviously, details that don't add to the "sum of human knowledge" ... specific email addresses, personal information that isn't pertinent to the story, should be omitted, but from a more practical note, the big newspapers have good lawyers, and it is safe to say that if several reputable newspapers in various countries have quoted certain sections - and continue to do so without action - then Wikipedia is safe to quote these sections - basically just use common sense and certainly don't pander to those trying to hide publicly available emails by falsely claiming that they can't be included due to copyright. Isonomia (talk) 10:30, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

it is my assumption that since emails should be available to others in england because of freedom of information law, it is a Public_domain there, and since british news sources published, it became public domain elsewhere as well. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 01:36, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

These e-mail are now in the public domain. Glocax (talk) 06:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't see anything in Freedom of Information Act 2000 which affects copyright. Having a copy of something doesn't mean it is in the public domain. Maybe you're confusing public domain with something being in the public record (not the UK legal definition of governmental "public record"). -- SEWilco (talk) 06:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes this has been discussed before multiple times with links provided to various websites which make it clear things released under the FOI may still be subject to copyright. (There was some suggestion things are different in the US but I never saw any evidence for that although I didn't take part extensively.) I suggest anyone who doesn't understand the difference between copyright and other matters like requirements for release under freedom of information acts and the like read the various articles and multiple discussions if they are still confused. As SEWilco said, public domain is a term usually used exclusively to refer to copyright and if you aren't aware of that I would also suggest you read the various articles. In terms of the quotes, I don't think a discussion relating to copyright is particularly useful. We should make sure they aren't over used/excessivelly long but for reasons primarily unrelated to copyright. Nil Einne (talk) 06:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Short excerpts are acceptable, under fair use doctrine. Also, e-mail on government/taxpayers funded servers are subject to different rules. Glocax (talk) 06:46, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

No evidence has ever been provided for your second claim when it comes to copyright except for the well established and known fact that US federal government work is in the public domain which is irrelevant here. Instead as I mentioned above, evidence has been provided to the contrary. If you have some actual evidence you're welcome to provide it, if not repeating the claim ad nauseum is not going anywhere. Also as has been discussed before and mentioned below, bringing FOI acts into it is even more dubious given that these were not even released under the FOI and yes that may matter even if they were supposed to be. Nil Einne (talk) 07:58, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

If some of the emails were sent by U.S. Government employees then those emails may fall under the public domain. The entire collection is not public domain. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:42, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Correcting myself... this material was not released under the FOI so that doesn't apply until someone gets a copy of the same material through an FOI request. -- SEWilco (talk) 07:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

We have a WP:CV. Perhaps we should ask the editors there? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:06, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I have some personal and professional knowledge of the situation here, since I've been involved with the UK FOI Act on both sides of the equation - as a requester and as a releaser - and also with administering copyright and trademark issues. The bottom line is that FOI only affects access to documents. It does not affect copyrights held by the Crown or third parties. For instance, I could (in principle) request a copy of submissions made to the Government by Exxon-Mobil, but the copyright of those submissions would still remain with Exxon-Mobil. Copyright also subsists in documents produced by the Government. In contrast to the situation in the US, where government documents are non-copyrightable, UK Government documents are Crown Copyright. The Crown Copyright regime is administered by OPSI, the Office for Public Sector Information. The relationship between FOI and Crown Copyright is explained by OPSI in the Guidance - Freedom of Information Publication Schemes. This states, in para 2: "The supply of documents under FOI does not give the person who receives the information an automatic right to re-use the documents without obtaining the consent of the copyright holder. Permission to re-use copyright information is generally granted in the form of a licence." So in this instance, even if the stolen data had been obtained legally under FOI, the requesters could not legally have republished it without the permission of the copyright holder, the UEA. This does not affect their "fair dealing" rights (which is significantly different from "fair use" in the US) but fair dealing would not have permitted the wholesale reproduction we've seen of the stolen files. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, there is a useful discussion of this issue in today's New York Times by their Public Editor: "The [New York Times] lawyer, George Freeman, told me that there is a large legal distinction between government documents like the Pentagon Papers, which The Times published over the objections of the Nixon administration, and e-mail between private individuals, even if they may receive some government money for their work. He said the Constitution protects the publication of leaked government information, as long as it is newsworthy and the media did not obtain it illegally. But the purloined e-mail, he said, was covered by copyright law in the United States and Britain." [23] -- ChrisO (talk) 12:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Whatever the Public Editor says, the New York Times' political blog has a link to the Sarah Palin emails on Wikileaks [24], and our Sarah Palin email hack article also links to those emails. There seems to be no difficulty with links to copyrighted material. -- SEWilco (talk) 19:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know the exact circumstances of that case, but I was under the impression that material produced by public officials in the course of their work is covered by US FOIA legislation or the state equivalents. But that's a bit of a red herring as far as this particular case is concerned - the status of the material is quite clear and so is Wikipedia's linking policy. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

FOIA is only a red herring if someone tries to invoke it. The above New York Times quote does not mention the NYT considering FOIA. As for the Palin emails, U.S. FOIA applies to U.S. Government work, not state workers. These documents were not acquired through any FOI (UK) nor FOIA (USA) process. If someone files FOI or FOIA (or the Alaskan equivalent for Palin files) and gets a copy of the same email through the formal procedure then the status of that copy will be different than these files, and the Palin files. -- SEWilco (talk) 20:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Since the CRU files were not released through FOI, and many of them would not have been subject to FOI in the first place, FOI is irrelevant in this case. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

interesting additions:

..university researchers may also find themselves in legal jeopardy if they deleted emails requested under the U.K.’s Freedom of Information (FOIA) legislation, a crime under U.K. law...

..Stephen McIntyre, a retired industry consultant who runs Climate Audit, speculated on his site that an insider may have leaked the documents and could be protected by whistle-blower law..[25]

..The Met Office plans to re-examine 160 years of temperature data after admitting that public confidence in the science on man-made global warming has been shattered by leaked e-mails. .. [26]

i see IPs tried to add some of this info with non-exact wording, but were reverted. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 01:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The first article is weak on a number of grounds.

• It's ancient, in the Climategate time frame
• The main point is a redundancy - it's illegal to break the law
• The "smoking gun" isn't smoking - it's a request to delete, not an admission of deletion
• It isn't clear that the proposed deletion is covered by the FOI request, while it seems likely, it isn't a slam dunk
• The deletion is specifically denied

The second link is much more relevant, but I see it has already been added.--SPhilbrickT 15:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Graham / insider quote

Some old material was inserted here and removed here. I see no consensus here regarding the inclusion of this speculation regarding insider involvement. As this article is currently highly contentious, it would be nice if it could be edited on a strict consensus-before-any-addition model. Can anyone point to such a consensus? - 2/0 (cont.) 04:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus for inclusion, and it's another example of more edit warring by GoRight. Tom Harrison said it was going to block anyone edit warring in a disruptive manner on sight, but GoRight has not been blocked. Why not? Viriditas (talk) 04:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/Tom harrison last edited before GoRight started editing. Also while I agree GoRight has had past problems and the (two) edits were inapproriate, as he/she has stopped I don't think there's any need to discuss blocking unless the edit warring continues Nil Einne (talk) 05:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The material was placed in the article before the protection, so the person who removed it after protection (ChrisO) did so without consensus or discussion. GoRight and others were merely reverting the non-consensus removal of the material.

Regarding the materieal itself, there certainly have been discussions all over the web that it could be an insider but I could find no Reliable Sources other than the security expert listed earlier, so I am content to leave it out unless further information or Reliable Sources become known. Madman (talk) 06:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Looks to me like the 5 Dec removal was by Atmoz, not Chris. Can I politely remind people, especially in a contentious situation, that removing cited material, leaving no relevant edit summary, and calling it a minor edit, is not desirable. --SPhilbrickT 15:48, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't notice that. In that case I agree with your assessment Nil Einne (talk) 08:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Given that we have a wealth of news articles which discuss this topic, I'm leaning towards the position that if we can't find any other sources, then maybe it shouldn't be in the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 08:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It should be noted that there never has been a consensus for the inclusion of Graham (see: Talk:Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident/Archive_2#likely_insiders.3F), it was re-inserted around 1 hour before protection[27] --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 11:43, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

As I said last time this was discussed, it's undue weight on one non-involved individual's personal opinion, particularly as it's strongly contradicted by a wealth of reliable sources speaking of a hack; the source also has something of a conflict of interest given that, as his blog shows, he's an activist climate change sceptic. This is not a neutral or disinterested source and there is no indication that his personal opinion has any basis in reality. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

There's a natural enough tendency on the part of editors who follow the skeptical and conspiracy theory line to try to exonerate the hackers. In the absence of concrete evidence supporting an inside job by a whistle-blower, however, it's really not on. There is apparently some evidence emerging that the Russian FSB may have been involved, which also tends to argue against speculation on an inside job. --TS 10:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Muir Russell in the lede

Resolved

I propose that the final sentence of the lede, "The review will be headed up by Sir Muir Russell, chairman of the Judicial Appointments Board for Scotland." be removed from the lede. It's already mentioned in the body of the article itself. Since the lede is supposed to be a summary of the article, this seems more like a detail not significant enough to be mentioned in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 07:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Support. Too much detail. Viriditas (talk) 09:02, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Support as well. I am the one who added it there. It seems a non-contentious removal. I'll remove it now. Madman (talk) 14:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

• Support bit late but pile on in case there's any dispute Nil Einne (talk) 14:30, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Obviously I'm outnumbered but as this is one of the few known facts in the case I would have preferred a brief statement left in. --TS 10:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

A few more suggestions for the lede

Currently, the lede only has one sentence that addresses what the criticisms are. Further, this single sentence only mentions one of the criticisms (withholding of data):

"Critics have asserted that the e-mails show collusion by climate scientists to withhold scientific information."

Fringe theorests have also claimed that the e-mails show an actual conspiracy by scientists to manipulate data. This is wholly different than not sharing data. A lot of reliable sources have focused on this aspect of the story so I think that it's important enough to warrant mention in the lede.

I also would like to see some stronger wording regarding the fact that these e-mails have not changed the scientific consensus that global warming is real and primarily man-made.

To keep the lede from getting too big, I suggest we remove the sentence "Professor Phil Jones, Director of the CRU, confirmed that the leaked e-mails that had provoked heated debate appeared to be genuine." It's mentioned in the body of the article, and since there doesn't seem to be any serious dispute over their genuineness, it doesn't seem important enough to mention in the lede. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 07:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Which sources about the consensus can be used? I think the White House mentioned something; has No. 10 issued a statement? If CRU issued a statement, can it be used? I do agree the lede mention of genuiness is redundant, and looks like the "Content of the documents" sentence would go better as the start of the following paragraph because then both CRU descriptions of the content would be mentioned together. -- SEWilco (talk) 08:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

There's the article from Scientific American[28]: "In fact, nothing in the stolen e-mails or computer code undermines in any way the scientific consensus—which exists among scientific publications as well as scientists—that climate change is happening and humans are the cause." A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree regarding the removal of the quote verifying that the e-mails are genuine - it was a legitimate question early on, but no longer important enough to deserve mention in the lede. As noted, it is covered.--SPhilbrickT 15:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Myron Ebell

I'm re-inserting my comments about Myron Ebell.

@Nil Einne:It is not correct to state that references need to be on this page -- facts mentioned are on the CEI page and appropriately referenced there. It's rich to state edits are inappropriate without prior discussion while simultanously reverting a good faith edit without any discussion whatsoever.Dduff442 (talk) 10:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

re to edit summary: i don't see why this is liable to be controversial? 93.86.205.97 (talk) 10:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Can we just say that he is of the CEI? Have the arguments about how evil the CEI is over there William M. Connolley (talk) 11:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)`

This is twice I've had my good faith edit reverted. You know well that reversion without *prior* discussion is against the rules.

This is from the Washington Post article cited re the Ebell comments:

But Myron Ebell, director of energy and global warming policy for the Competitive Enterprise Institute, said this and other exchanges show researchers have colluded to establish the scientific consensus that humans are causing climate change.

"It is clear that some of the 'world's leading climate scientists,' as they are always described, are more dedicated to promoting the alarmist political agenda than in scientific research," said Ebell, whose group is funded in part by energy companies. "Some of the e-mails that I have read are blatant displays of personal pettiness, unethical conniving, and twisting the science to support their political position." (Emphasis added)

It is inappropriate to censor the good-faith edits of others in what is fundamentally a cooperative endeavour. I can't think of a good reason why anyone would want to hide relevant information from readers. Please make an effort to adhere to Wiki policy.Dduff442 (talk) 12:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think you're confused how things work here. Firstly WMC who reverted your second edit did partake in the discussion. Secondly it is your responsibility to get Wikipedia:Consensus for any disputed change particularly on a contentious page. WP:Edit warring to add disputed edits is as I've already a rather bad idea and something likely to be seen as WP:disruptive and therefore get you blocked. When in doubt, reverting to the stable version is the norm, regardless of whether you agree with the stable version (except in a few cases like WP:BLP). This doesn't of course mean others don't have to partake in the discussion. Since no one has accused you of acting in bad faith, the issue of good faith edits doesn't come in to it. Good faith edits can be problematic too and when they are very problematic, reverting them is fine if you explain why. Finally bringing censorship into it is doesn't help anything and simply serves to poison the well. Nil Einne (talk) 12:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you take a read of WP:Verifiability. If you are going to make a claim about something, you should be providing references in this article to support the claim. You should not be telling people to go find them somewhere else be it on wikipedia or elsewhere. My edit summary was sufficient to explain why I made the reversion, I did not feel any need to further explain why I made the reversion as adding unreferenced claims is a particularly bad idea on a contentious page and several admins have threatened to block anyone who makes controversial undiscussed changes. In terms of why this is liable to be controversial, adding claims about something to a subsequent article without establishing why it's relevant almost always is. The issue of funding comes up in a lot of discussions. The obvious question is why don't you mention they're funded by Coca Cola or Pfizer or the Earhart Foundation or whatecer else? You may feel those specific funding sources are relevant because those parties have an interest in avoiding action over climate change but that's solely an editor's POV, something likely to be disputed and in any case always best avoided. If you have WP:RS which specifically mention the CEI's funding sources in relation to their statement here then you may have justification to include it in this article but I agree with WMC that really it's best just to leave it at the CEI article. Nil Einne (talk) 12:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The info was (i) already linked to in the CEI page and (ii) already mentioned in the Wash Post article cited. It is not 'solely an editor's POV' to think that the source of Ebell's funding is relevant to the article. Both Ebell and Exxon have a major conflict of interest here. The Post found this worth mentioning and so do I.Dduff442 (talk) 12:14, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

As I said, it DOES NOT matter if the info is in the CEI page. It needs to be SOURCED HERE. If all that means you copy the sources here so be it (although as I've explained I don't think that's a good idea either but at least you'll actually be sourcing what you're adding then). Sorry for yelling but I'm sick of repeating the same thing again. Secondly the WP particle does not say that the CEI is funded by ExxonMobil and Ford. It does say they are funded by energy companies, but if you don't understand there's a difference between the two then you probably shouldn't be editing wikipedia since verifiability is a cornerstone policy and per WP:Verifiability, references need to actually say what you say they're saying, not something else that doesn't mean the same thing. I should add Ford isn't even an energy company by most definitions regardless of whether they have a COI. Now as to your new edit, I'm fine with letting that stand since it is directly supported by the reference relating to the statement, in other words, we have a reliable source directly establishing the relevance, unlike the earlier edits which were supported by no reference in this article (or at least inline to the sentence, I obviously haven't read all 50 current references) and for all we know may not have any sources establishing the relevance. And one final time to make sure I get through it DOES NOT matter if the info is in the CEI page, it needs to be sourced here Nil Einne (talk) 12:35, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It was never stated that Ford was an energy company and your remarks regarding this are fatuous.

WP:Verifiability does not support your claim about the ref needing to be on the same page. The link was in the same sentence and was mentioned in my edit summary (and noted in yours). The revert was without any justification in these circumstances as you already knew the info was sourced. I refer you to WP:ROWN. Dduff442 (talk) 13:10, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

To quote Mr Connolley, "Can we just say that he is of the CEI? Have the arguments about how evil the CEI is over there." As it stands now, it's blatant POV pushing ("Myron Ebell of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a think-tank funded in part by Energy companies, said" . . .) and really needs to be removed. Madman (talk) 14:51, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Explain how it constitutes a POV push, let alone a 'blatant' one. The information is of value in interpreting Ebell's statements. You'll note the edit only aligned the article with the editorial line taken by the Post, the source cited.

That ExxonMobil etc. pay Ebell's wages is widely acknowledged fact, not POV. You have a job ahead of you in showing why this information should be kept from readers.Dduff442 (talk) 15:31, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

If you must include CEI's funding sources, then you must must include the funding source for every source in this article, which really would drive this article off topic. Besides, there's already a link for the CEI in that sentence.Chelydramat (talk) 16:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

A sourced comment gets deleted three times in one day without prior discussion in any case. Wow. The Washinton Post -- the cited source in this instance -- did not find the comment 'extraneous'. The remark was taken verbatim from the source precisely in order to avoid this kind of discussion.

The source of funding (i.e. employer) is given of many of the persons named in the article, as is background information on their prior stances on climate issues (as with Von Storch immediately below). You are certainly free to add more, so please be my guest in detailing the funding of any other sources you wish. You are not free to censor relevant, sourced information.

Discussion & consensus-building should precede deletion of material. We're headed for dispute resolution if this continues.Dduff442 (talk) 16:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

That bit you added was not taken verbatem from the article and you know it. Did you think that nobody would actually go to the refferenced page? The Competitive Enterprise Institute page has plenty of uncensored information about it if anybody wishes to look into it. You've had two far more experienced users explain that to you already WP:NOTSOAPBOX .Chelydramat (talk) 17:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The exact phrase deleted was from the Washinton Post article cited[29]:"It is clear that some of the 'world's leading climate scientists,' as they are always described, are more dedicated to promoting the alarmist political agenda than in scientific research," said Ebell, whose group is funded in part by energy companies. "Some of the e-mails that I have read are blatant displays of personal pettiness, unethical conniving, and twisting the science to support their political position."

Care to reconsider your remarks? Care to justify the remarks *exclusion* from the article in the light of any framework of journalistic or scholarly ethics?Dduff442 (talk) 17:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

No. Though I missed that while skimming the article, that still doesn't change the fact that 1.) you're using this article as a soapbox and are verging on being disruptive 2.) Information about the CEI is readily available, therefore it's inclusion in this article is unwarranted.Chelydramat (talk) 17:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

(EC) Discussion & consensus-building should precede deletion of material if it's deletion of existing material from a stable version. If you are adding a contentious change to an article, particularly one as problematic as this which was only recently unprotected and where admins have even warned against such behaviour, then reversion of this change is appropriate until it's established it belongs. If you genuinely believe WP:Verifiability and companion guidelines like WP:Citing sources do not require you cite claims in the articles you are making the claims in, then you have a serious lack of understanding of policy and given as I've often repeated this is a cornerstone policy and a extremely basic rule of wikipedia, I suggest you seek clarification elsewhere like WP:VPP or WP:Help Desk first since it's obvious no one here is getting thorough to you. Also your original two additions were not the exact phrase used in the Washington Post article, as you well know. The article does not mention any specific companies, and you included Ford which isn't even implied by the article as it is not an energy company. While you did later revert to using the WP wording, your comment above seems to imply that all 3 times the reversion was of you adding a verbatim claim from the WP which is clearly not true. (There have been 2 times now of course.) Incidentally I will not be taking further part in this discussion as I don't feel anything productive is going to come from it although I think it's well proven my point that the change was obviously contentious, even more so the version I reverted which wasn't sourced and had far more problematic wording. Nil Einne (talk)

You've already stated you were 'fine' with its inclusion. Ford was mentioned as a source of funding in the CEI article and I neither stated nor implied it was an energy company. I only claimed the second edit was verbatim, not the first. As you pointed out, the phrasing was altered to reflect the source exactly.

The material is not contentious -- nobody has disputed its factual accuracy. What has (subsequently) proven contentious is its inclusion -- an inclusion I justify on grounds of integrity as the material was already in the article and nobody voiced any objection to the Post article prior to my edits.Dduff442 (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

(<- outdent) Discussion and consensus-building should precede insertion of potentially WP:BLP-violating material. My reasoning is as follows:

1. The only reason for including the information is the implication that energy companies determine the reports from the think tank.
2. That implication would be a BLP violation against the actual report authors if stated.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:23, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

The WP:BLP objection is transparently without foundation. I made no statement about Ebell. I quoted a remark from a newspaper article already published and already cited about Ebell's employer. Even if I had remarked about Ebell, it is not possible to libel somebody by quoting the contents of a published newspaper. Dduff442 (talk) 19:03, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

You made the implication, not me. The Post quote was scrupulously NPOV. I am not of the opinion that the public should be protected from facts.

I'm putting in an RfC on this to get a wider spectrum of opinion, particularly from media experts.Dduff442 (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

'Source Code and Programmer Notes' section

If we are going to discuss these docs then a few groundrules may be useful.

1. Don't source statements in the article to blogs (WP:RS)
2. Can we first of all establish from a reliable source that these code files actually were used in the preparation of published results, and if so, exactly which published papers.

Re 2: I have a suspicion that these snippets of source code have become available because they were sent as attachments to the emails that were stolen. If this is the case, then they are unlikely to be part of the major code-base used at CRU. It is more likely that they were personal experiments by individuals to see how various types of analysis could be applied to the temp record database. Don't forget, UEA is a university, CRU is part of UEA, people go to university to learn, to teach and to do research. For all we know these might have been students' projects getting analysed here. --Nigelj (talk) 11:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

huh. wp:or. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 11:59, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Asking for reliable sources is original research? How do you come to that conclusion, then? -- ChrisO (talk) 12:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Like the email contents, if the code/programming is being discussed by Reliable Sources, then we should mention that in this article. We can put disclaimers around our mention, but we can't just ignore what Reliable Sources are saying about the non-email files, whether or not the RSs establish "that these code files actually were used in the preparation of published results, and if so, exactly which published papers". Madman (talk) 14:45, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO, I suspect the wp:or mention was to Nigelj's suspicion that the source code were attachments to emails. I doubt that HARRY_READ_ME.txt would have been attached to these emails. Nigelj can entertain the suspicion further by searching the emails for mention of the program and data files, but the results would be WP:OR. There have been diagrams produced which show communication relationships between the participants, but has an RS published known relationships between code and other items, including published material? That's more likely to appear later, after requests for records related to these files are completed. I haven't seen mention of such, but when using FOIA it is common to use one document to find related documents. So someone will ask for records related to a program and any published works. As with much of the story, we can't add it until it appears. -- SEWilco (talk) 18:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It has become all to common to make the blanket statement that blogs are not reliable sources. However, it isn't true. See WP:BLOGS.--SPhilbrickT 16:01, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

please don't cite essays when trying to make a wp:rs point. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 17:12, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

It's an oversimplification to say blogs are never reliable sources, however, considering WP:BLP and WP:UNDUE, for practical intents and purposes, most blogs aren't acceptable for this article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Blogs are largely not acceptable (see WP:V), with one major exception: Some newspapers host interactive columns that they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professionals and the blog is subject to the newspaper's full editorial control (ibid., follow the footnote). Thus, the newspaper blogs can be squeezed in, while the Realclimate should be (largely) out. This is, of course, precisely the inverse of what is being quoted as the policy by the Team WMC. Dimawik (talk) 18:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

What do you refer to as "Team WMC?" That sounds like a personal slur.

Secondly, why would you want to include poorly informed writers on newspaper opinion blogs, and exclude expert opinion from a scientific blog? That makes no sense at all in terms of our policy on reliable sources. --TS 18:08, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Dimawik, the other exception to blogs is if they're produced by an established expert whose work in the relevant field has been previously published by third-party, reliable sources - which is why RealClimate is in. In any case, we have in-text attribution. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:28, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Nothing personally aimed at anybody here: just a general thought... There's more to writing good articles for Wikipedia than finding on-line texts at random and paraphrasing them. You get nowhere if you first of all don't actually understand the subject matter. With that as a grounding basis, then you can work out what the article needs to say to summarise the whole topic in a sound and encyclopedic way and then look to the best reliable, verifiable sources to support the statements, and point the inquisitive reader to good quality further reading (by that stage these and other references will be well-known to you anyway, so its easy to pick and choose). If no such sources yet exist, then you know to hang fire until they do. I'm sorry if this sounds elitist, but really, people who have no idea what the topic is about, beyond what their morning newspaper has just told them, would never get an authorship contract with Britannica, so why should they expect editorial control here? 'Anyone can edit', yes, but not anyone can plan, design, and execute a good balanced article on a topic unless they have more than a passing acquaintance with the issues, and the underlying issues. --Nigelj (talk) 19:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

shall we try to put that in a new policy? joking of course. anyhow, that is why we have you here, to guide us in designing and executing this article. although, i must say that a visitor with a passing acquaintance with the issue can often make better observations with an unbiased mind than some editors deeply involved with the topic. in conclusion, i disagree with the second half of your thought -- rarely ever here anyone writes the whole article, but most users add bits and pieces. regards. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 19:50, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. It's all always a to-and-fro collaborative effort with everybody bringing their own knowledge, skills and background. People who know nothing at all about the topic still make valuable fixes to style, grammar, layout etc once there's something to look at. It's just when we get, "I found a mention in a blog or on Fox News, so now I want to write a whole new section"... --Nigelj (talk) 20:00, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

From Nigelj's comments one might assume that the editors working on this article are all experts in computer security, law, and software :-) Since this is clearly not always the case, I'd say that contributions from editors that are not professionals in the climate science shall be also welcome. This is not an article about the climate change, after all. Dimawik (talk) 21:05, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Counter-Argument to the "trick" explanation

Part of the wiki article quotes the explanation for the "trick". It is accurate, refers to the tree rings, and is commonly used. However, that doesn't mean there wasn't an intent to manipulate the data. I think it's fair to present the counter-argument to the counter-argument.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/12/understanding_climategates_hid.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed:+Climatescam+%28ClimateScam%29

Written by Marc Sheppard -- relation to this section specifically

"The first step was taken in the 1995 Second Assessment Report, when the above Figure 7c was replaced with a 1993 reconstruction from RS Bradley and Phil Jones himself that used 1400 AD as its base – effectively wiping the MWP off the radar-screen.

But it wasn’t until the 2001 Third Assessment Report (TAR) that the MWP simply vanished. This multi-proxy reconstruction of Northern Hemisphere temperature anomalies appeared in chapter 2, page 134, of the Working Group 1 (WG1) report.

Of course, the first thing you’ll notice is that both the MWP and LIA have indeed disappeared. In fact, temperatures appear to trend downward throughout the millennium until a sharp jump upward last century. But if you look closer, you’ll also notice that the “reconstructed” series terminate in 1980. What forms the dramatic blade to the hockey stick shape (yes, this is indeed the famous “Hockey-Stick” graph) is instead the distal segment of the 1902 to 1999 instrumental data series.

Mann has recently claimed that the available proxy data ended in 1980, but even his coconspirators at RealClimate admit that’s nonsense. The truth is that the proxy data was scrapped because unlike those measured, reconstructed temperatures showed a marked decline after 1980. And, as the chart plotted temperature anomalies against what the plotters selected as the “normal” period and temperatures of 1961 to 1990, the reconstruction would have been quite unremarkable otherwise. So at the 1980 mark, the actual post-1980 measurements were actually attached to the truncated proxy series to create the illusion they were one.

The figure below, found on the same page of the WG1 report reveals this trick more clearly. This chart plots the original 4 reconstructions used: 2 from Mann et al, 1 from Jones et al and 1 from Briffa et al. Notice how all but the first series continue to trend downward around 1960 while instrumental readings begin to trend upward? And even that series ends abruptly in 1980."

See original link for images and PDF files attached to the explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marshzd (talk • contribs) 19:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think we should stick with mainstream sources as the article so far has done. The Four Deuces (talk) 19:55, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

If you're interested, wiki already has an article dealing with some of this, Description of the Medieval Warm Period and Little Ice Age in IPCC reports William M. Connolley (talk) 21:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

cbs report

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2009/12/06/climategate-finally-reported-cbs-climate-change-hoax use as reference? --BernhardMeyer (talk) 21:18, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean CBS or Newsbusters? The Four Deuces (talk) 21:38, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Newsbusters is not a reliable source, anyways. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I mean CBS. --BernhardMeyer (talk) 07:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

A lot of news organizations are producing some extremely sloppy journalism on this subject, treating unfounded allegations by skeptics as if they were fact. We have to be careful, as an encyclopedia, to distance ourselves from poorly researched press pieces, and to not fall into the trap of covering the news coverage rather than the facts. --08:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

likely insiders?

I've never edited a news article but i do believe the first sentence in the body shouldn't have the words "likely insiders" in it, neither of the articles, BBC or Time, mention the hackers as most likely insiders. If there is another article someone has seen as mentioning "likely insiders" it should be used to cite. MikelZap (talk) 03:24, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Removed. It's an opinion attributed to Robert Graham, not a fact as it is deceptively portrayed in the lead section. Viriditas (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing deceptive about it. It is stated as a fact in the source that it comes from:

Judging from the data posted, the hack was done either by an insider or by someone inside the climate community who was familiar with the debate, said Robert Graham, CEO with the consultancy Errata Security. Whenever this type of incident occurs, "80 percent of the time it's an insider," he said.

Note that "the hack was done either by an insider or by someone inside the climate community" is written as a statement of fact and is NOT in quotes. This is a statement being made by the journalist based on their investigation. The security expert's quote indicates an 80% probability that this is the case, hence the word "likely" is used rather than leaving it as an absolute statement of fact. --GoRight (talk) 04:34, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

That's not accurate. The statement is an opinion paraphrased from Robert Graham, CEO with the consultancy Errata Security, just like the article says. There is nothing factual about it. All opinions, no matter if they are paraphrased or quoted, must be attributed to their authors. If you don't understand how this works, then I invite you to read the NPOV policy. There is no "absolute statement of fact" here at all. All opinions require attribution, no exceptions. Viriditas (talk) 04:43, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

It won't take terribly long to publicize who did this. Then it will be known if it was an insider or not. So just wait. Ling.Nut (talk) 04:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thr r svrl srcs sng thr th trm "whstlblwr" r "nsd jb". thr f ths trms r spprtd b mltpl rlbl srcs Comfort & Joy (talk) 05:30, 26 November 2009 (UTC) stricken: sockpuppet of banned user scibaby Kim D. Petersen (talk)

I am not well-versed in this controversy. I would like to make a suggestion to bring us closer to consensus. In the lede, it states: "The unknown hacker, likely either an insider or someone inside the climate community, anonymously disseminated thousands of e-mails and other documents." What if we just wrote: "The unknown hacker(s) anonymously disseminated thousands of e-mails and other documents?" I say this because the first section also points out the hacker is "likely either an insider or someone inside the climate community" I'm not here to argue if the hacker(s) were insiders, though, one would assume they had some kind of inside presence. ThinkEnemies (talk) 06:38, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

I've cut it back to this again. Graham's argument is a statistical one, in 80% of the cases it is insiders, but there is no means for us to tell whether this case is one of the 20% or the 80%. Since Graham has no inside information to the case, but is simply speculating it shouldn't be used, except as "X stated that in 80% of such hacker cases it is insiders" or something like that. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 07:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

It also appears from Graham's website that he's an activist climate change sceptic, which casts some doubt on his objectivity on this issue; he's not just speaking as a security expert. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:53, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

[30]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:20, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Thr r nmrs srcs nd xprts tht ndct ths s n nsd jb. W shld rspct ths rlbl srcs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Institute of Klimatology (talk • contribs) 16:46, 26 November 2009 (UTC) Account blocked. [31]

I retrieved this discussion from the archive. GoRight is again trying to add this. I'll just add my support for not having it in the article. -Atmoz (talk) 22:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Given the above discussion, I'd say you were right to remove the material from the article. Guettarda (talk) 22:32, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I concur. The 80% quote is clearly an off-the-cuff generic reaction, not a measured, statistical analysis of the present situation. Even if correct, it’s highly likely that we will know whether the actual incident is in the 80 or the 20 soon. If for some reason, it remains murky, then it might be relevant to incorporate some expert’s opinion, but I’d like to see a more measured reaction reflecting the actual situation, not just a shoot-from-the-hip value.SPhilbrickT 19:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Monbiot in "Reactions"

I just looked and the "Reactions" section led with the opinion of, of all people, the journalist and activist George Monbiot, coming before the opinions of the UEA, several scientific organizations and several qualified scientists. As Monbiot has no scientific credentials of which I'm aware in this field, I've moved his opinion a good way down. To place his opinion first gives undue weight to lay opinion. --TS 01:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not how things work around here. Weight is determined by its prominence in reliable sources, not on our own personal opinions. Monbiot's opinion has been cited by numerous reliable sources. Please keep in mind, TS, that WP:NPOV cuts both ways. You can't e-emphasize an opinion just because you don't like it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Well weight is a matter of editorial judgement. Number of reports is a very crude way to measure importance, and obviously Monbiot's opinion counts for a lot less than those whose opinions are above his after my edit. And with the best will in the world, I find it hard to conceive that Monbiot's opinion has been reported in more reliable sources than that of, say, Phil Jones, Michael Mann, James Hansen and so on. --TS 04:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy with the new format in which reactions are divided up into the sections labelled "Climatologists", "Mainstream science organizations", "Newspapers and other media" and "Think tanks and elected officials". On balance I'd prefer the "Newspapers etc" section to be last but this is acceptable. Within each section we should seek appropriate balance but should take care not to get into an adversarial dialog structure. --TS 10:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the division into sections is useful, but both the categories and what is included in them need further thought. "Thinktanks and elected officials" is a nonsense. If Ed Miliband says something, then that is the view of the UK government. Neither that nor the view of a US senator should be put on a par with comments from people who run thinktanks. The comments currently in the category "media" are confused too. The report from the DT is not a media view but a report of how others have responded. It is to be taken as a reliable report and should be in the appropriate category, and not attributed to the DT. The Computerworld quote is not the view of Computerworld but a reliable report of the views of others. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Added notes on source code and harry_read_me.txt

I added info on these, because they have been subject to controversy. If there is any bias, I'd appreciate editing. I write this in good faith because this subject is relevant to the topic, and I hope that we are not too agenda driven and can include a discussion of it. Much thanks!-WikilAGATA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikilagata (talk • contribs) 02:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I think a mention of leaked/stolen program code is appropriate. The emails were the immediate source of controversy, but the programmer comments and other areas of the source code have been generated just as much controversy - it had just taken longer for the public to digest.Static623 (talk) 10:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

I'm deleting the following from the article in accordance with WP:PSTS:

"According to the RealClimate website, in their response to the CRU hack, the "decline" being mentioned is a decline in tree ring sizes, not temperature. RealClimate characterizes the e-mail excerpt as follows:

The paper in question is the Mann, Bradley and Hughes (1998) Nature paper on the original multiproxy temperature reconstruction, and the 'trick' is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear. Scientists often use the term "trick" to refer to a "a good way to deal with a problem", rather than something that is "secret", and so there is nothing problematic in this at all. As for the 'decline', it is well known that Keith Briffa's maximum latewood tree ring density proxy diverges from the temperature records after 1960 (this is more commonly known as the "divergence problem"–see e.g. the recent discussion in this paper) and has been discussed in the literature since Briffa et al in Nature in 1998 (Nature, 391, 678-682). Those authors have always recommended not using the post-1960 part of their reconstruction, and so while 'hiding' is probably a poor choice of words (since it is 'hidden' in plain sight), not using the data in the plot is completely appropriate, as is further research to understand why this happens.

"

I doubt this is very controversial, but I've been surprised before, so I figure I should mention it here. --Heyitspeter (talk) 02:31, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've restored that lucid, scientific explanation, and also cited a Philadelphia Inquirer story that quotes Mann saying exactly the same thing. Given the amount of nonsense we've got in the article from people who nothing about the science, it's very unwise to remove what few good scientific sources we have. --TS 02:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Now that we have the secondary source, can we remove the primary source? Again, this is in accordance with WP:PSTS.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no reason to remove anything, and I'm afraid you are misinterpreting the policies/guidelines again. Because there continues to be confusion on these issues from you, please use the talk page before making these edits in the future. Viriditas (talk) 03:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe I am, and I fail to understand why you think this is a case of misinterpreting the policies/guidelines "again." Please be civil and engage with me rationally. If we have a secondary source that says "exactly the same thing" as the primary, and if primary sources are contentious in this case, let's go with the secondary. This shouldn't be a difficult decision to make.--Heyitspeter (talk) 03:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

If we removed the clear RealClimate explanation we'd have to replace it with something else that does the same excellent job. We've got our secondary source, so there is no longer an issue. People come to this encyclopedia for an explanation of the issues, and RealClimate is a good source on this subject. --TS 04:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The key point here I think is similar that do when primary sources came up before, e.g. with the CRU-UEA response & investigation. It's best to avoid solely using a primary source as the source. If however we have a secondary source which says the same thing or even quotes the primary source, then using the primary source to back up the secondary source is useful for readers to get more information that may not be provided in the secondary source. Nil Einne (talk) 09:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

The POV issue with quoting the RealClimate explanation is that critics are not saying thet the "trick" was simply truncating tree-ring data after 1960, but that it involved turning the trend line upwards by incorporating later temperature data into the smoothed series, even though the tree-ring data was declining from 1940 to 1960 (in line with temperature) and after 1960 (diverging from temperature). A UEA press release [32] illustrates the different visual effect between splicing and truncating in two charts; note that it does not show how the tree-ring data continued after 1960. NPOV could require also quoting from critics such as [33] --Rumping (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I have added some secondary sources that the "trick" involved splicing together (not just plotting) tree ring and thermometer data, plus relevant links to UEA and RealClimate on the same point. --Rumping (talk) 10:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Climategate -- or CRUgate

Since Wikipedia is in the middle of writing history at exactly the same time as History is out there busy writing itself, could I request of both Wikipedia and History that we try to do something about this awful new word that is in serious danger of coming into existence, viz. "Climategate". It raises so many questions that should never, ever be raised -- and certainly not anywhere near an encyclopaedia. For instance, should we capitalise the 'G' (CamelCase) or run it all into a single word (Climategate)? Could we break it up into two words? Um, hypthenate (Climate-Gate)? Argh. And beside, who exactly is guilty here: The hacker, the leaker, or the climate? A number of sensible writers have, to mitigate against such a looming linguistic catastrophe, opted for CRUgate, e.g. http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/?p=4156, http://www.crikey.com.au/topic/crugate/, http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com/2009/11/cru-gate-climate-conspiracy-or-much-ado.html, http://rankexploits.com/musings/2009/in-the-wake-of-crugate-letters/, http://www.Free Republic.com/focus/news/2392001/posts. I say, we help them out, we help history out, and we add to the text the words, "... or CRUgate". Any support for this? (I'm serious). Alex Harvey (talk) 11:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've just googled and there are now 2,580,000 hits for the word "Climategate" (around a million more than the last time I looked at the number). Regarding how it will be worded when the article changes its title, I would suggest the word everyone is using: "Climategate". And to be quite frank, it should be pretty obvious why its being called climategate: no one out there can think of a better name and you can see them struggling with the thought of "University of East Anglia, which is a little known University in England, from which some emails, may or may not have been stolen/leaked, and which may or may not be evidence of ... oh hell, why don't we just call it climategate". The analogy with watergate is obvious and was explicitly made in the papers today: Information was obtained illicitly (it is suggested) which some suggest is evidence that some people were being "economical with the truth". (Unfortunately, if I were to believe some editors, just by writing the above I will get myself banned from Wikipedia - but to hell with such censorship - so, so long and thanks for all the fish!) 88.109.63.241 (talk) 15:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC) Sorry the censors need to know who to ban! Isonomia (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

No. Dancing around what to call it isn't getting anywhere, the page is going to stay as its current name and climategate will redirect and be a significant "Also Known As". This has been discussed extensively on this talk page already. Ignignot (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary. The controversy has almost nothing to do with how the emails came into the public sphere, and pretty much everything to do with what the emails contained. The "CRU Hacking Incident" will be dealth with by the IT firewall crew at the University. "Climategate" will be discussed by the leaders and scientists of the free world. "Climategate" may be a nothing more than a tempest in a teapot, but the current name is misleading and suggests that the *real* issue here is data security at East Anglia. Under this premise, the Pentagon Papers would have been called "Bob's Unlocked Desk Problem".Nightmote (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Google Climategate: Results 1 - 100 of about 30,400,000 for climategate. (0.28 seconds)

Google: "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident": Results 1 - 100 of about 37,600 for "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident". (1.22 seconds)

Google CRUgate: Results 1 - 100 of about 6,450 for CRUgate. (0.68 seconds)

The above in order of number of hits. Frankly, Climategate wins hands down. Wikipedia can play games all it wants to -- but people that come here will type "Climategate" into the wiki search and come to this page. It appears pointless to keep the current name. But whatever. SunSw0rd (talk) 19:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"CRUgate" is a completely fringe name. I've also seen "Hackgate" and "Deniergate", but I hardly think it's worth noting every name made up by some bloviating blogger somewhere. -- ChrisO (talk)

You're misusing WP:FRINGE, similar to how a lot of people misuse WP:BLP. -Atmoz (talk) 20:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

No I'm not. Check Google News - six hits for the term, five of them blogs. This alternative term has negligible representation in reliable sources. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

'Climategate' at centre stage as Copenhagen opens

"The 'Climategate' row immediately took centre stage at the Copenhagen climate summit today when one of the opening speakers went out of his way to defend the scientific consensus on global warming from the attacks of climate change sceptics. "[34]

Due to the insiduous censorship here, I can't say anything more. Isonomia (talk) 13:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

XXX link XX brokXXXXXXweird. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 13:08, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"According to a report in the Times, UN officials have compared the climate change E-Mail theft with the Watergate scandal. In that the hackers who stole the data were probably paid for by climate change sceptics intent on wrecking the Copenhagen climate change talks."[35]

Again, I'm unable to make any comment due to personal threats (except thanks stephan!). Isonomia (talk) 13:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Stephan, if you're referring to my broken FreeXXXXRepublicXXXXXXXX link, I wasn't able to save the page with it intact because that nefarious site is on Wikipedia's spam filter (and I think you already know what this proves). ;-o Alex Harvey (talk) 13:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

[36] and the surrounding history should be enlightening. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"Saudia Arabia told global warming talks on Monday that trust in climate science had been "shaken" by leaked emails among experts and called for an international probe,... The IPCC, which is the authority accused, is not going to be able to conduct the investigation," he said, referring to the Nobel-winning UN Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change (IPCC).[37] <zip>Isonomia (talk) 13:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, we know for sure that Saudi Arabia would have no vested in interest in trying to prevent a reduction in worldwide carbon emissions. --Nigelj (talk) 20:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Attempt to manipulate the peer review process

I'm going to add the following:

Peter Kelemen, a professor of geochemistry at Columbia University's Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, claims that the leaked emails reveal an attempt by Climatologists to disrupt the peer review process by threatening editors of peer reviewed journals with removal from their function if they decide to accept critic's papers for publication, which could have implications for the common argument that there is a consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming.

If you think it shouldn't be on there and people shouldn't hear about the attempt to keep "skeptics" from publishing their articles to scientific journals by threatening the editors of these journals with removal, please come up with a good argument here. Damage control is not a good argument.

Counteraction (talk) 13:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Please give people more than 2 minutes to consider your prosed text additions in future. I've removed the text for now William M. Connolley (talk) 13:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I also note that you've added this text before [38] and it was removed [39] with an indication that you should seek consensus on the talk page first. That was good advice William M. Connolley (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

While the article is worth reading, the author is not an expert, so I would leave it out. The Four Deuces (talk) 13:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Fact is, as it stands, this Wikipedia article doesn't mention anywhere that the e-mails revealed an attempt to get people removed from their positions as editors of journals if they published articles that disputed the "consensus". Seems to me such an event deserves a mention on this encyclopedia, but it keeps getting removed. Imagine if the Tobacco companies tried to destroy people's careers for merely publishing a study showing that cigarettes cause cancer. Does an e-mail first need an official explanation from Realclimate or something before we are allowed to add it here? Counteraction (talk) 14:04, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Counteraction, sorry, don't you know the policy. Only sources peer reviewed by the climate "scientists" are allowed on wikipedia climate articles. That is the rule that the "overwhelming consensus" of editors has determined and unfortunately, unless you can find one of these scientists in the emails who has published an article in a peer reviewed journal regarding climategate, then you are completely wasting your time. 88.109.63.241 (talk) 14:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but the source you're quoting does not say anything about "threatening editors of peer reviewed journals with removal", nor does it say that there was an "attempt by Climatologists to disrupt the peer review". It does accuse them of hubris and an "implicit attack on the basis of peer review". That is, of course, the nature of private correspondence. It's one thing to say "X should be fired" when venting. It's quite another to actually try to get them fired. But that's beside the point - the summary does not accurately represent what Kelemen says in the article. And that's a problem. Guettarda (talk) 14:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not true. It does mention it. Look at this:

It was even more troubling for me to read messages in which, in at least two instances, scientists discussed how to get associate editors removed from journals that published papers critical of their work. The theory seemed to be that the papers were so seriously flawed on scientific grounds that they should not have been published. (This is a common view among authors whose work is criticized.) Personally—having looked at the paper that generated the most complaint, by Soon & Baliunas in the journal Climate Research in 2003—I agree that the paper is scientifically incorrect. Still, incorrect papers make it through peer review all the time, generally because reviewers are not sufficiently vigilant. Despite this, it is very unusual to try to get editors fired as a result.

If anyone here can explain to me why it shouldn't be mentioned, don't hesitate. As it stands I'm just having my edits reverted and told that I'm making stuff up. Counteraction (talk) 14:10, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Because the article says nothing about "threatening editors of peer reviewed journals with removal" or "attempt by Climatologists to disrupt the peer review". No mention of threats. No mention of any "attempts to disrupt peer review". Nothing in the article to suggest that there was any action associated with the comments. Guettarda (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Again:

It was even more troubling for me to read messages in which, in at least two instances, scientists discussed how to get associate editors removed from journals that published papers critical of their work.

Doesn't this constitute disrupting the peer review process? Counteraction (talk) 14:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

No, of course it doesn't. Private discussion ≠ action. Quite frankly, if you believe that an associate editor isn't doing her/his job properly, it's quite appropriate to discuss whether they should remain as associate editor. But that's entirely beside the point - the point is that there's no evidence that anything was done. If something was done, that's another issue (although, of course, not all actions to remove an editor constitute improper actions. Guettarda (talk) 14:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Is it really that hard to understand that my writing "We should run out into the middle of the street." does not constitute disrupting traffic? -- 98.108.198.236 (talk) 01:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

[outdent] I will have to agree with Mr (or Mrs) Action here that this is something that has been widely discussed in the press. I think we should add something along this line similar in format to the other 3 email sections: (1) a quote from the emails (sourced to a WP:Reliable Source) followed by some sort of rebuttal/explanation from another Reliable Source.

Here are some Reliable Sources: [40], [41], [42] (not sure whether this is news or opinion piece), [43]. There's also something from New Zealand (now where is that??)

Could we all agree to that in principle? Madman (talk) 14:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, I found some of the original e-mails after using Google:

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=484&filename=1106322460.txt http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=307&filename=1051190249.txt These are the e-mails where the climatologists discuss how to remove people from their positions, to prevent certain articles they disagree with from being published in peer reviewed journals. That's not very nice, is it?

If someone could use them to update the article, please do, since I'm being told that if I edit the article again I could get in trouble... Counteraction (talk) 14:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Basically we editors cannot quote directly from the emails, since those would be considered Primary Sources. See WP:PSTS. We can only (in most circumstances) quote from WP:Reliable Sources which quote the emails. Madman (talk) 14:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources for what? They don't (as far as I can tell) support the idea that they tried to get an editor removed - if, in fact, Jones had acted on the email quoted, shouldn't that email be among the collection? The fact of the matter is that there's a huge difference between saying "I should do X" and actually doing X. Especially in private correspondence. None of the sources (as far as I can tell) support Counteraction's allegations that something wrong was done. Guettarda (talk) 15:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"Reliable sources for what?" Reliable sources for the contents of the emails. As has been mentioned in earlier threads, there are perhaps 5 or 6 e-mails that have been widely discussed/reported/dissected in the press (i.e. in Reliable Sources) and we should include short sections on these 5 or 6 (or 4 or 7 or . . . ) in this article. We have 3 e-mail sections now, and Mr Action here is proposing that we add a 4th that would revolve around this email from Jones: "I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!" I think we can do this in a non-accusatory and factual basis. You know, "just the facts, ma'am". Madman (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"Mr Action here is proposing that we add a 4th that would revolve around this email from Jones" - really? That wasn't what I got from Counteraction's post or her/his arguments here. I thought you were saying that these were reliable sources that supported Counteraction's proposed additions; my point was that they don't. So what would you suggest we add? Guettarda (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

This article isn't about what these scientists have or have not done with respect to the peer review process, it is about the public release of email and other information and its repercussions, including responses from other scientists. If other scientists are alarmed because they think that the emails indicate that some sort of unprofessional behavior is going on, then I think that belongs in the article - to clarify, we're not trying to say that the scientists are unprofessional, that would be a BLP violation I think. But if other notable people do then we can and should say that they have done so, as a reaction. Ignignot (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Granted. But the source doesn't support the claim made in the section that Counteraction added. Kelemen commented on what was discussed. Counteraction present it as if the discussions were actions. Guettarda (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Proposals

Re-reading the article shows a tone of cautious alarm at possibly unethical behavior, I think. I think it could be written as:

Peter Kelemen, a professor of geochemistry at Columbia University's Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, claims that the leaked emails seem to indicate possibly unethical behavior by the scientists involved. (I am taking this from "If scientists attempted to exclude critics' peer-reviewed papers from IPCC reports, this was unethical in my view.") He also states that there might be an attempt to circumvent the basic peer review process. (from "Some of the stolen CRU e-mails state that if an associate editor of GRL was "in the greenhouse skeptics camp" he should be "ousted," suggesting that the e-mail authors viewed any critic of their work, no matter how ethical or well-informed, as incompetent. If so, this is a remarkable instance of hubris, and an implicit attack on the basis of the peer-review process, not a normal part of the give-and-take of scientific debate. ")

That might be a little too simplistic, making it strongly worded. His position is more nuanced than that (which is why it is about the same size as the wiki article! [[44]]) but I think that is the basic idea. He phrases everything in "might" and "maybe" which makes weasel words inevitable, unfortunately. Does anyone have suggestions? Ignignot (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I have expanded that thought, Ignignot, and added contrasting opinions and ended it with a big fact:

A few of the e-mails have raised concerns that their authors may have attempted to undermine the peer-review process. For example, an 8 July 2004 e-mail from Phil Jones to Michael Mann said in part:

"The other paper [written by sceptics] is just garbage. . . . I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow — even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!"

Peter Kelemen, a professor of geochemistry at Columbia University's Department of Earth and Environmental Sciences, said that "If scientists attempted to exclude critics' peer-reviewed papers from IPCC reports, this was unethical in my view."

Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the IPCC, responded that IPCC has "a very transparent, a very comprehensive process which ensures that even if someone wants to leave out a piece of peer reviewed literature there is virtually no possibility of that happening." The University of East Anglia's commission will evaluate whether CRU's peer-review practices comply with best scientific practice.

Any changes? Madman (talk) 20:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it also needs a specific rebuttal saying that no unethical behavior has taken place. Ignignot (talk) 20:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I think his own stated motivation is significant. He said it was garbage, and so must be kept out somehow. If he'd said it was 'highly damaging to our manufactured and shaky claims', that would be news. If someone writes rubbish in a WP article, you might say, "That is badly-sourced garbage and I'll get it removed somehow, even if I have to get the policy at WP:RS changed." I'm sure in the earliest days of WP, before that policy was very well tested, people really did say things like that, and that's why we have such hard-to-circumvent policies now. --Nigelj (talk) 21:08, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

We aren't talking about what Jones said. We're talking about Peter Kelemen's reaction to released emails (and some other reactions). There is no need to defend or explain his comments. Ignignot (talk) 21:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the rebuttal, I could find no Reliable Source that said that no unethical behaviour has taken place. We could say something to the effect that no charges have been filed even without a Reliable Source, couldn't we? But of course that's not the same. We do have the quote from the IPCC chair saying essentially that IPCC process can't be hacked. Madman (talk) 22:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I posted the proposed section shown above. I will work on getting the 7 <whew!> references into the correct format. Thanks, Madman (talk) 05:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, the email quote is modified to sound as if he did it because they where sceptics, it's extremely misleading.
—Apis (talk) 10:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the sentence to the exact wording of the email, but put the name of the authors in brackets. OK? I also addressed Mr Connolley's concerns. Madman (talk) 14:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

My first reaction to this on the article is that this is now a well covered issue. Excellent work. Thank you. --TS 15:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Statements from elected representatives

I am dismayed that all mention of this source has been expunged from the article. Times have moved on and perhaps this one is now more germane. It is an opinion piece written by the UK prime minister, so is pretty central. Regarding the emails, he writes:

Let no one be in any doubt about the overwhelming scientific evidence that underpins the Copenhagen conference. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change brings together over 4,000 scientists from every corner of the world. Their recent work has sharpened, not diminished, the huge and diverse body of evidence of human-made global warming. Its landmark importance cannot be wished away by the theft of a few emails from one university research centre. On the contrary, the pernicious anti-scientific backlash that the emails have unleashed has exposed just what is at stake.

The purpose of the climate change deniers' campaign is clear, and the timing no coincidence. It is designed to destabilise and undermine the efforts of the countries gathering in Copenhagen today.

I propose summarising this as follows:

Gordon Brown has said that there is no doubt about the overwhelming scientific evidence that underpins the Copenhagen conference. The recent work over over 4,000 scientists, as represented by the IPCC, has sharpened and not diminished the huge and diverse body of evidence of human-made global warming. "Its landmark importance cannot be wished away by the theft of a few emails from one university research centre. On the contrary, the pernicious anti-scientific backlash that the emails have unleashed has exposed just what is at stake." he added, noting that the purpose of the climate change deniers' campaign is clear, and its timing is no coincidence. "It is designed to destabilise and undermine the efforts of the countries gathering in Copenhagen."<ref>

At the same time, I intend splitting the current sub-section, as raised by Itsmejudith, above into 'Elected national representatives' and 'Political organisations'. Currently, only Myron Ebell of the Competitive Enterprise Institute would appear in the latter.

Two questions: has anyone any objections, before I proceed? and can someone find a recent statement re the emails and docs from Pres. Obama? I find it hard to believe he has never mentioned them in any way, and so the article seems a bit lacking there. --Nigelj (talk) 14:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Why Obama? There are plenty of world leaders without putting in more US bias. Unless Obama says anything notable then please don't go out of your way to make this website look even more Wikipedia.US. 88.109.63.241 (talk) 14:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Only that he's another world leader, and I thought I'd try and be nice to our colonial cousins ;-) --Nigelj (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I would agree that a statement from Mr Brown would be appropriate. I do hestitate to put in large paragraphs because I'm afraid people won't read them. Madman (talk) 14:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I think, especially as the incident happened in the UK, a five-line reaction from the UK Prime Minister is about right. In the absence of any other comments although the article and this Talk are quite active, I think I'll go ahead. --Nigelj (talk) 14:59, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree - that should be the gold standard in the reaction section. Ignignot (talk) 15:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Done, with a few typos fixed too.--Nigelj (talk) 15:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've had a Google for something from the US, but there seems to be nothing from Obama, nothing from his advisors since 2 Dec. --Nigelj (talk) 15:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Is Google censoring "Climategate"?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Use the talk page to discuss the article, not the event.

---

I'm sorry for raising this issue, because my gut feeling is that it is just a cock-up, but as I've no way to verify the extent of this story through my normal search engine and it certainly is true to some extent as I was wondering why climategate was coming up as "climate guatemala", I'd prefer to raise it and be told it is nothing than to ignore it. Oh, god, no idea how this would be put in the article, and with the current climate of censorship, I'm not sure I want to waste time trying, but here is the information anyway.[45][46] (And the examiner carries the story, but Wikipedia censors that link! Isonomia (talk) 16:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I think at some point we can dismiss claims like that as paranoid. There are roughly 3 million hits for climategate on google, so if they are censoring it they are quite incompetent. Unfortunately the polarized views on each side of the issue make some people draw the conclusion that there is a vast conspiracy (about a vast conspiracy (... )). And I'm not just talking about skeptics here. Ignignot (talk) 16:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It was kind of damned if I do raise it and damned if I don't! Hopefully that is the end to the discussion! Isonomia (talk) 17:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I've seen this too. There are, as far as I know, no Reliable Sources reporting this. If not, there's nothing for us here. Madman (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

To the editor who removed this on the basis that "it was not a proposal to edit", of course it f***ing wasn't a proposal to edit, it was a request for other editors to help investigate because although my gut instinct is that it is not worth putting in the article, unless I raise the question and request other editors who are familiar with other search engines (I'm sadly dedicated to google) to check it out, how on earth is it ever going to get into the article, if and it only matters if there is any foundation to this. Isonomia (talk) 17:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Google's AugoSuggest feature has been all over the place regarding Climategate. It has gone back and forth between AutoSuggesting "climategate/climate-gate" and not autosuggesting anything. Now it's autosuggesting "climate-gate" and "climategate copenhagen". If we add an entry about this, it will probably be outdated quite soon and there will be no reference for whatever is written. Bing has also had similar uncertainty over its autosuggest feature - at this time, it autocompletes "climate-gate" after typing 'cli'. Static623 (talk) 09:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dr. Judith Curry's reaction

"Well, I mean, I believe that this was a blow to the credibility of our science. And I'm concerned particularly in the context of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or the IPCC, Fourth Assessment Report. You know, 1,000 scientists contribute to this from 130 different countries. It's a process that takes several years.

So the IPCC is really the authoritative assessment of our science for policymakers. And some of these emails do mention the IPCC and trying to keep certain journal articles or papers out of the IPCC, and I think that's wrong."

See http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121139996

"But the failure to distinguish between, like, the advocacy group, talk radio kind of skeptics versus scientists, researchers and even people on blogs who are actually doing analysis, you know, technical people analyzing the data and doing analyses, I think all of that kind of skepticism needs to be looked at, rather than trying to dismiss it in the way that I'm seeing, you know, in these emails."

Hope this helps others who want to contribute. Ann arbor street (talk) 17:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

-gate link?

While we're calling it ClimateGate, I'd like the link to list-of-gates restored, that [47] removes William M. Connolley (talk) 18:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree, I don't see any reason to remove it. While it isn't critical to the article, anyone seeing "Climategate" and knowing "Watergate" could wonder, "hey what other -gates are there?" and then find out that it gets tacked onto everything under the sun. Ignignot (talk) 18:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree too. It is an informative and encyclopedic cross-reference - just exactly what we're here for, with hypertext. --Nigelj (talk) 18:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Within the context of this article, it's trivia. Not to mention that it looks stupid to have only part of a word hyperlinked. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

contradiction:

Blog post: ...when the hackers attempted to upload it to RealClimate... [48]

Blog comment: ...At around 6.20am (EST) Nov 17th, somebody hacked into the RC server from an IP address associated with a computer somewhere in Turkey...and uploaded a file FOIA.zip to our server...[49]

which one is more reliable? 93.86.205.97 (talk) 19:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Am I missing something? What's the difference? --Nigelj (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

first says attempted to upload (implying failed), later says uploaded. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 19:28, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Comitting unpublishable OR here but I think the attempt was to upload it to the blog, as opposed to just getting it on their server, which it appears they succeded in doing. I think our article is fine as is, but I can see the source of confusion. Hipocrite (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

that makes sense (server vs blog). thanks. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Posting entirely from recollection, I agree with the distinction. I think someone was able to upload the file, and tried but failed to post the “announcement” to the blog. The activity was noticed, and blocked and the uploaded file was removed.SPhilbrickT 20:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

That is correct. The interesting question is why RealClimate was targeted. It seems to have been an attempt to frame RC for the distribution of the files. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

That seems to be both OR and complete speculation. Maybe it was because they are the top climate blog and they wanted to show it to as many people as possible? Maybe it was because a login for the blog was included in the hacked email data? Maybe it was because it was just one of many attempted uploads? Maybe it was because many of the people at the CRU are involved with the blog itself? But the most important question is, where is there a source for any of this? Ignignot (talk) 20:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Alexa climateprogress.org+realclimate.org+wattsupwiththat.com+climateaudit.org -- SEWilco (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

why will have to wait for analysis or confession. -- SEWilco (talk) 21:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

which some have dubbed

Either it's called it or it isn't. If it is, it should be written as "also known as". If it isn't, it shouldn't be in the article. I don't particularly care which it is. CNN refers to it as climategate. They haven't dubbed it as such. Newsweek similarly refers to as climategate. ABC news too. With all the dubbing going on, I think I'm watching a foreign film. -Atmoz (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I would prefer that this stupid, jokey "gate" nonsense was purged from Wikipedia as unencyclopedic; however, that fact remains that some sources (though by no means all) have adopted this retarded term for the incident. The usage is particularly prevalent in the US, where crawling information bars and "chyrons" have limited space. "Climategate" is not an encyclopedic term. At best, it is simply a moniker; therefore, "dubbed" seems appropriate (although I would prefer "which some refer to as..."). -- Scjessey (talk) 21:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I just don't think that dubbed sounds very encyclopedic, even though climategate is a stupid name. Instead of foreign films by the way, I was thinking that it should be called Sir Climategate of East Anglia. Ignignot (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest using "Climategate" and "Climategate scandal" as alternate titles that redirect here. There's a strong tendency here in the Colonies to append the suffix "-gate" onto the name of any scandal, and so the term is gaining traction. Just trying to help. And calling it a "hacking incident" in the main title assumes that it was the result of hacking, so the word "hacking" should be removed. (P&W immediately covers his head with his arms, and flees from the Talk page in a zigzag pattern.) Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 21:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Climategate already existed as a redirect, I added in Climategate scandal as another redirect. The hacking in the title thing is a huge can of worms that should be discussed in the appropriate talk section. Ignignot (talk) 21:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Just to correct someone way up there above, "CRU gate" has actually 690,000 hits -- here. (CRUgate, one word, around 6,000). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexh19740110 (talk • contribs)

As I'm sure most of you know, the number of hits Google generates is only loosely connected with the number of results it turns up. In this case, it runs out at 469 (and precisely zero of the 9 hits on that page are about climate). Guettarda (talk) 22:35, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I like "which some have dubbed". At this stage, it isn't a "thing", it doesn't have a name. But some have named the issue. Guettarda (talk) 22:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, let's recap something that I mentioned when we were discussing the inclusion of "Climategate". If people want to argue that "CRUgate" is in use they need to refer to reliable sources - not blogs - and a general Google search is next to useless in that regard (see WP:GOOGLE). Google News finds just six sources, five of them blogs and one an opinion piece, which use the term. [50] So it clearly is not in any general usage among reliable sources as opposed to the blogosphere. Second, it is original research to use sources as examples of usage. You need sources which specifically speak of the term's usage, rather than sources which merely use the term. Hence - for example - the Reuters source cited after "Climategate" says that the affair was "already dubbed "Climategate", and our article reflects this wording.

Turning to Atmoz's comments, "also known as" is problematic because, first, the existing wording specifically reflects the source, while that wording does not - it's one editor's own spin on it (hence OR). Second, "also known as" makes it seem that the alternate term is a general term for it, which it clearly isn't (hence also OR and rather POV). The term is not in general use like "Watergate"; it was specifically coined by anti-science activists to promote the incident as a scandal, so it is loaded with POV connotations. Given the very partisan way in which it's used we need to be careful about how we present it. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

There are no sources which refer to this as "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident". You're argument is disingenuous at best. -Atmoz (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

You will also no doubt find that there are "no sources" which refer to "Rathergate" as Killian documents controversy or "Attorneygate" as "Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy". Those names are used because of Wikipedia's policy on article naming and our avoidance of "gate" in article titles. (I wrote the relevant sections of those policies a very long time ago, so I know what I'm talking about here.) Wikipedia is not news: we deliberately avoid non-neutral article titles, and we make an effort to find descriptive article titles. Yes, "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident" is longer and clumsier but it has the huge advantages of (a) neutrality and (b) telling you something about the subject. "Climategate" tells you only that it's something about climate which someone considers a scandal. I'm not saying that "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident" is necessarily the best title (I didn't choose it!) but it's significantly better than a lot of the alternatives. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)But "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident", it's a descriptive phrase. Because it isn't really a "thing", it doesn't have a name. Just a descriptive phrase for the article title. Guettarda (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I just want to go on record as saying that this has has to be one of the lamest edit wars I've ever seen on Wikipedia. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Lamest edit war ever. Why not just say "widely referred to as "Climategate"" or somesuch? That would be entirely accurate. Evercat (talk) 22:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Simple. We have three groups of editors here. One group wants to maximize the damage of this controversy as much as possible. The second group wants to minimize it as much as possible. Then there's the third group who just wants to write a good article in accordance with WP:NPOV and WP:RS. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:02, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I have no objection to that if someone can find a source to support it. As I said, merely finding examples of usage isn't enough - what we need are sources telling us how the term is used (widely? narrowly? who uses it?). Otherwise it's OR and weasel wording. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:56, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Would this do as a source? [51] Evercat (talk) 22:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Seriously? A list of Google search results? What did I just say about "merely finding examples of usage"? -- ChrisO (talk) 23:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, seriously. It's not just an example usage, its an indication of how wide that usage is, which is what you asked for. Nobody looking at that link can deny that the term is widely used. About 600,000 hits contain both "Climategate" and "Climate Research Unit" [52] indicating that there's a substantial use of the term in this context. Evercat (talk) 23:08, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that is pure original research. It's an argument that's not made in reliable sources. I don't mind including the term, but if we're going to say anything about how the term is used it needs to be sourced. And you should know that Google tests are heavily caveated/deprecated. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:15, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not original research. I didn't do the research, Google did. Google is a fairly reliable indicator of how widely a phrase is used on the web. I think it's obvious you're trying to use the letter of Wikipedia policy to object to an edit that you know would be perfectly sensible and accurate. You don't actually deny that "Climategate" is being widely used, do you? [Edit: but see my comment below...] Evercat (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course I don't deny that it's widely used. But the point stands about using a Google search as a source in an article to make an argument that doesn't appear in any reliable source. You can't do that. If you don't believe me, go over to the reliable sources noticeboard. I'm afraid you're wrong about "Google doing the research". You created the list of search results from Google's database snapshot at that particular time. It can't be reproduced because the database is in constant flux and the results vary wildly. Google isn't even a fixed source, let alone a reliable one. This argument about using Google search results as a source is one that's come up time and again; basically, it can't be done because of Google's inherent instability and the general unacceptability of making novel arguments without reliable sourcing. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

'About 600,000 hits contain both "Climategate" and "Climate Research Unit"' - actually drill down and you'll find that "600,000" resolves to only 675 pages. Guettarda (talk) 23:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Well that's odd. Have I really been misled into thinking that Climategate is widely used when it in fact isn't? I suppose this is possible... Evercat (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Not sure. But with regards to results, see Wikipedia:Search_engine_test#Google_unique_page_count_issues and the reference cited therein. Google doesn't actually count pages that match your query. Guettarda (talk) 23:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Now it's beginning to be referred to as "hackergate" it seems [53]. Might be a bit too early to rename the article but perhaps we should add that to the list in the lead section. NB.
—Apis (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Channel 4 News called it "emailgate" the other day... Itsmejudith (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Climategate is the single most common name for the incident. No other name has stuck. I don't actually care much what the title of the article is, but "Climategate" should be introduced without disparagement and the which some sources have dubbed Climategate wording is dismissive, therefore POV. It isn't serious encyclopedic language, either. Let's use neutral language with a more serious tone, the way articles normally use it: also known as Climategate. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Climategate" has two problems. First of all, it's a very US-centric moniker that is little-used outside of US and US-influenced media. Secondly, it carries the implication of guilt on the part of the CRU, when in fact the guilt lies with the individuals or group who conducted the data theft. A fairer approach would be to say something like "which some media commentators have referred to as 'Climategate'". -- Scjessey (talk) 01:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You've given a good reason not to use "Climategate" as the article title, but none of those are good reasons not to neutrally note that it is a name very, very frequently used. It isn't just used in the U.S., either. Here's a Google News search limited to UK sources, showing results from many prominent sources. [54] (I did the search to show prominent sources.) -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's still not ubiquitous enough to label it without a qualifier. "Some media commentators have referred to it as..." or "Some media outlets...", etc. Wikipedia itself must not apply this label, if you get my drift. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

also known as Climategate isn't "Wikipedia itself" saying anything other than that it's a name that's been used for it. No more, no less. Neutral. "Some media outlets" using the term is always assumed because it's obvious. Using a "qualifier" is Wikipedia itself making a statement about use of that term, which would be fine if there were something special about the term, but in this case there isn't anything special about it. If it's worthwhile, we might cite some source discussing the term and possible objections to it. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but using the term "also known as" would need a qualifier. "Also known as" by whom? Either you stick in a festival of corroborating references, or you simply say "some media commentators" and throw in a couple of representative references. There should be no doubt whatsoever that it isn't "Wikipedia's voice" using the term. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Plenty of "some" corrobation. Search the article for Climategate and you find there are already a half-dozen references which use the term. Go through the article's versions in other languages for more non-US-centric examples. Actually read the sources if you need more. -- SEWilco (talk) 04:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

AKA Climategate (as in, the name everyone uses) would need a qualifier, but "Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident," which no one, anywhere, "knows" it as, does not?Drolz09 (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Everybody? I doubt it. While Google claims 30 million hits for "climategate", it only turns up 730 of them when you look through the results. Surely this issue has attracted a lot more than 730 distinct hits. Or has it? I think I perception of the size of the internet is grossly inflated by these silly stats Google likes to throw our way. Guettarda (talk) 05:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What other wikipedia projects are calling it isn't relevant, nor is how they refer to it in other languages. Other language wikipedias might have different policies, and likely they want to reflect the name used in their local language media.
—Apis (talk) 05:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The fact that everyone thinks of the issue as "Climategate" is obvious if only in light of the effort people go to to re-brand it, and how awkward they look doing so. Drolz09 (talk) 05:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Everyone" does not think of the issues as "Climategate", and Wikipedia relies on a neutral approach to topics supported by NPOV, rather than a sensationalistic, emotionally-manipulating approach that is promoted by the media. Viriditas (talk) 05:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What is it going to take to change the "some sources have dubbed..." to "which has been dubbed as". I don't believe that wording will carry the implication that Wikipedia is authoritatively coining the term. Additionally, to go on saying "some sources", carries the implication that the incident is going by other nicknames. As far as I've seen, just about every major media outlet has used the term Climategate or Climate-gate. For those undo'ing edits to drop the "some sources" - please list some examples where a different moniker is being used. Static623 (talk) 09:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I have a better idea: In order to reflect the actual content of the article, change the name to "Climate Lobby's Response to Ambiguous Incident Involving Criminal Hacking and Possibly Other Crimes." Drolz09 (talk) 09:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please stop trying to confuse the issue - there is no other short-hand for this incident other than "Climategate". Static623 (talk) 09:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

AAAS Reaffirms Statements on Climate Change and Integrity

I think this statement should go into the article.[55] The AAAS is a relevant organisation regarding all things science so their opinion matters. I also think we should start pruning out the comments by some of the less notable individual scientists.
—Apis (talk) 22:39, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. On the current dispute going on over the word "theft", not that they say: "AAAS expressed grave concerns that the illegal release of private emails stolen from the University of East Anglia..." Guettarda (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Name – a compromise: Climate Research Unit science controversy

As proposed by Ronnotel suggest above the article should change name to the more neutral Climate Research Unit science controversy as also ChrisO indicates above. Could this be a compromise between the Climagate and current name Climatic Research Unit e-mail hacking incident? Nsaa (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Let me suggest an alternative - Climatic Research Unit files controversy. This is more precise, since the focus of the controversy is on the stolen files. The controversy is not about the CRU's science in general but about what the stolen files (supposedly) indicate about specific aspects of its science. Compare with Killian documents controversy. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"[W]hat the stolen files (supposedly) indicate about specific aspects of its science" - it's more than the science...much of the discussion has turned to behaviour and ethics. Not to mention, the "response" is as much of a story. Guettarda (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)I'd have a problem with that. This isn't, primarily, about their science. No one has documented any evidence of scientific misconduct, as far as I know. Not to mention, the main news here is about the willingness of people to cherry pick quotes and turn them into a full blown attack on the scientific endeavour - something that's old hat for evolution denialists, but a fairly new tactic for the climate denialists. Guettarda (talk) 23:19, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Climatic Research Unit emails incident any use? (Translation of the French WP article title.) Itsmejudith (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Similar names have been suggested several times and the consensus has been not to use non-neutral words such as controversy. Please also see Wikipedia:Words to avoid.
—Apis (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I suppose we could go the whole hog and call it Theft of Climatic Research Unit files but I suspect some people on this talk page might have a problem with that... -- ChrisO (talk) 23:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

You have a point on "files", since most of what was stolen apparently wasn't email. Guettarda (talk) 23:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I suggested it. I could live with a variant of Itsmejudith's suggestion, Climatic Research Unit files incident. I do think we should get away from "e-mails" if we can. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:36, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On "theft" as well I think, because hack is rather vague, and we don't know the details of how the files where stolen.
—Apis (talk) 23:38, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

"Theft" annoys copyright-skeptics like me :-) because nobody's been deprived of anything; the files were copied, not stolen, as would be obvious if they were physical files. Evercat (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

cf Data theft... Would you say it wasn't theft if your bank had been hacked and your bank account details had been taken? -- ChrisO (talk) 23:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

How about Some climate change deniers attempt to sabotage the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change by conducting espionage on the Climatic Research Unit? On a serious note, the title should definitely not include the phrase "science controversy" in it. If the title is to change at all, serious consideration should be given to make sure it is a neutral title that everyone agrees on. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Please stop making incendiary comments in a discussion that is supposed to try to get us to consensus on a difficult topic. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It was not an "incendiary comment" at all. I was trying to prove a point - that there should be proper discussion and a cast-iron consensus for a neutral article name, if it is to be changed. Otherwise we end up with "move wars" and pointless bickering. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the "copying isn't theft" argument, but wouldn't the legal term still be theft? So lacking a better word, but perhaps that word is hacking.
—Apis (talk) 00:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I am stunned to read the above exchange. Where would the editors have stood on the Pentagon Papers? This scandal - and it is a scandal - has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that emails were hacked/stolen/released, and everything to do with the content of the emails. The possibility certainly exists that the email quotes were "cherry-picked", but the fact remains that (right or wrong) the professors have failed to avoid the appearance of impropriety, and the neutrality of the scientific community has been called into question. The current article name is convoluted, non-descriptive, misleading, and should be changed to reflect what *most* people on both sides of the issue are calling it: Climategate. Anything else smacks of damage control and spin.Nightmote (talk) 03:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Pentagon Papers sounds pretty neutral to me? It's not called Pentagate, nor the Pentagon Papers Scandal, not even the Pentagon Papers Controversy.
—Apis (talk) 03:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

At the very least, "incident" is obviously inappropriate. Never has the word incident been applied to an ongoing, multistage controversy before now. If you guys want to use incident, you need to make a separate article about the hack, and change this one to controversy, then get rid of all the hack nonsense that has no bearing on the science issues. And yes, it's Pentagon Papers, not "Daniel Ellsberg Larceny Incident" Drolz09 (talk) 04:03, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no indication that "incident" is inappropriate, but other titles are possible. The word incident has most certainly been applied to such articles as this one, so you are wrong on that point as well. Viriditas (talk) 05:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The fact that anti-science activists went so far as to hack two websites, steal files from one, attempt to frame the second, and sabotage the Copenhagen Summit with the release of the files, certainly is part of the scandal. It reminds me of the way anti-abortion activists cheered the murder of that unfortunate abortion doctor in Kansas last June, arguing that his supposed "crime" justified or outweighed the crime committed against him. Though in that case at least the perpetrator admitted he had done it. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So, anti-abortionists equate abortion with murder, and you equate hacking with murder. Meanwhile, "anti-science activists" reveal widespread scientific fraud, which pro-science Wikipedia editor-zealots will stop at nothing to conceal. Understood. Drolz09 (talk) 09:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to state that we do not know that the servers were hacked. Most sources that say so are simply assuming. When we know, we'll hear details, like suspects arrested. Or on the other end, whistleblowers may come forward, were we to find that this was not the act of a hacker. If it were a whistleblower, he/she could have easily had access to RealClimate as well, being a direct colleague of Jones. It is premature to declare that this is the result of an outside computer criminal.Static623 (talk) 09:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I've already closed one discussion that ended in speculation on the event rather than discussion of the article, and will do so with this if it moves in the same direction. The Norfolk Constabulary reports that it is "investigating criminal offences in relation to a data breach at the University of East Anglia" and that's what we report. Removal of the word "hacking" isn't going to happen because both UEA and RealClimate have reported separate hacking incidents. --TS 10:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Jones e-mail

Nsaa just added this bit to the article:

====Jones e-mail of February 2, 2005====
On February 2, 2005, Phil Jones, the head of the Climate Research Unit, wrote, "If they ever hear there is a [[Freedom of information in the United Kingdom|Freedom of Information Act]] now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone."<ref name=nzherald_20091128/>

The file mentioned was not actually deleted.{{fact}}

I think we have to be very careful about how we treat these e-mails. First, there's a risk of cherry-picking. Is this particular e-mail notable? Has it been cited by other reliable sources or just this one? Second, what is the context? Third, the "defence" looks awfully thin. What does Jones himself say about this, if anything? -- ChrisO (talk) 23:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Why do we have a simple quote, sans context, of the Jones email from Feb 2005? It's either a random quote, or it's an attempt to imply wrongdoing, without actually having a source to back up the implication. Which, of course, isn't permissible, per WP:BLP. Guettarda (talk) 23:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

There is indeed a risk of cherry-picking. That bit was deleted by William and restored by me, because the whole "destruction of data" thing is a widely reported topic that we ought to have something on. Even if the section is not neutral now, it will hopefully become so as it grows... Evercat (talk) 23:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the Globe and Mail, is it a reliable source? If so, there's this. Evercat (talk) 23:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

BLP doesn't allow us to use material that it "not neutral for now" when it's about living people. Guettarda (talk) 23:55, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not as if its untrue that he wrote it. But we need more context is all. Evercat (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a cherry-picked quote that implies wrong-doing. If we're going to suggest that people did wrong, we need reliable sources to back up the accusations. We can't print innuendo, not about living people. Guettarda (talk) 00:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well since 2 people have now removed it I will not be restoring it, but note the conversation above at "Why is this quote not included in the article?" - this whole destruction of data business is one of the hot topics that should be mentioned somehow. Evercat (talk) 00:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be discussed in the article. By all means - discuss it. Using reputable, reliable sources. But don't simply use a quote to imply wrongdoing. Guettarda (talk) 00:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not my intention; though I can't speak for whoever added it to start with. Evercat (talk) 00:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Guettarda that something of this sort needs to be included. We mention that the UEA inquiry will be reviewing whether CRU violated FOIA laws/rules/etc, so we should say why they are looking at that. Madman (talk) 00:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

• See "FOI subsection restored" section, below -- a fine spot to include it. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can see I only moved four references down to the reference section? Where did I add the above statement? Nsaa (talk) 21:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

FOI subsection restored

I've restored the FOI subsection which had previously been removed with the objection that it was somehow a BLP violation. Discussion at WP:BLPN showed otherwise. See WP:BLPN#Use of blog to source allegations of criminal wrongdoing by named individuals. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
By the way, here's the diff showing what we're talking about: -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, i don't agree with your reading of the comments on that board. Its a WP:SPS and it doesn't come under any of the exceptions to the rule (ie. he's not an expert). And since it is BLP material that we are talking about, then there has to be some very good reasons for ignore wikipedia rules. Find better and reliable sources. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no other way to read the comments at the BLP board. He isn't self-published, as is made abundantly clear by the section on the BLP noticeboard, which I'm surprised you didn't notice. The blog is published at the Science magazine website. Using italics doesn't make your argument for a BLP violation any better: It's been discussed in numerous publications by now and an inquiry has begun. The source is as reliable as they come: a journalist from a reputable publication where both he and his editors can be expected to be well-versed in libel law. And as for sourcing, the journalist himself uses sources: a British lawyer familiar with FOI and the British agency that handles FOI law. You didn't really read the BLP noticeboard discussion, did you? All this information is there. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

My, my, Kim, you actually participated in the BLPN discussion. I'd forgotten. All of your objections have been answered there, yet you repeat them here. Perhaps you'd forgotten those parts of the BLPN discussion in which your objections were answered with evidence. Again, please review them. It would save us the trouble of repeating them all here, although by this point, I think I might just cut and paste previous responses. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Interestingly enough there are only 2 (uninvolved) comments to that BLP request, one is ambivalent with a nod towards "No", and the other is positive. Thats not nearly enough to assert that it went in the way you want. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 01:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please address the actual issues, which you failed to do in the BLP discussion. Please address the actual points I made here (after I already made them there). You objected on the basis of BLP and self-published sourcing. I've already shown that there is no BLP violation and the sourcing is not self-published. Do you have any other objections or any further BLP objections that haven't already been knocked down? -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not at all familiar with this aspect of the matter. Were any emails actually deleted? If they were, then absolutely it should be in the article. If they were not, then it all becomes speculative stuff from a blog that should not be in the article, per WP:BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with the BLPN discussion conveniently linked at the top of this section. All your points should be answered there. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

A simple "yes" the emails were deleted, or "no" the emails were not deleted is all I need. The discussion you refer to does not seem to focus on the salient point I am getting at. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Your point is slightly off topic: the section is not about whether or not FOIA was violated but whether or not that is a possibility, based on what Jones said in some of the emails. The point that the journalist was making, a point made by other reliable sources as well, is that this is an area where Jones wrote some suspicious statements in the emails, and if emails or documents were deleted in the face of an FOIA request, there are legal consequences involved. The point is not whether or not anything was actually deleted -- something we have no way of knowing. This is an issue that many reliable sources have brought up about this well-known person, so there is no BLP violation in WP bringing it up. If you look at the BLPN discussion, this will be very clear, very quickly. Again, sorry I wasn't clear about that. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 01:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what you have made clear is that you want to write about something that didn't happen. Some iffy-sounding emails that offer no proof of anything, that a few blogs and other sources have picked up on. Regardless of the outcome of that BLPN discussion, it does not seem as if the long-winded exposé that is currently being edit-warred in and out of the article is appropriate. If it gets mentioned at all, it would seem that WP:WEIGHT demands it be a one-line mention, or something of that level. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

If you can't discuss this civilly, I'm going to ignore you. I asked you to familiarize yourself with the facts. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I have been perfectly civil. I am coming at this from the perspective of being an experienced Wikipedia editor, not an expert on climate change. The information you seek to include is about a nebulous "maybe" scenario, so it is clear that it does not warrant the enormous chunk that has been proffered thus far. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, edit warring of this section must stop. Until there is a clear consensus for inclusion of this controversial section (on this talk page, not some other meta page), it should not be in the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

• Anybody still think it's a BLP violation to bring up possible FOIA violations? Apparently the University of East Anglia thinks it's a subject worth discussing: [56]

LONDON - The British university at the center of what climate skeptics are calling "Climategate" on Thursday named an outside reviewer and detailed what would be investigated. [...]

The university said Russell would also review: [...]

"Review CRU’s compliance or otherwise with the University’s policies and practices regarding requests under the Freedom of Information Act (‘the FOIA’) and the Environmental Information Regulations (‘the EIR’) for the release of data."

-- JohnWBarber (talk) 02:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying it is a BLP vio. My assertion is that it is a violation of WP:WEIGHT because too much coverage is given relative to the rest of the article, violating the neutral point of view. Clearly, we need to establish a consensus for what (if any of it) should be included. That is a discussion that should occur here, and not elsewhere. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What I think you misunderstand is that the problem was with the source, and that criminal allegations are subject to WP:BLP. You cannot source that material from a blog, even if that blog is hosted by science (compare with a column in a newspaper).
—Apis (talk) 03:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That's just wrong. There is no problem with the source, since the source doesn't make an allegation. Your idea that we don't or can't rely on reliable sources to state the obvious with regard to legal liability is without any foundation whatever in policy. And it's not just that source, of course, but all sorts of sources. To cut and paste from the WP:BLPN discussion that you're ignoring:

• See also: The Guardian news story from 11/23 [57] it emerged last week that hundreds of their emails and documents had been leaked that allegedly manipulated data and destroyed evidence for Freedom of Information Act requests. Jones has been called (by a writer in the Daily Telegraph) without doubt, one of the world's most influential proponents of the theory of man-made global warming [58] -- JohnWBarber (talk) 03:41, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

• [...] here are two more, so we have at least four reliable sources (Science magazine, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Daily Mail) saying that Jones' statements call into question whether or not he violated Britain's FOIA:
  • The Daily Mail in the UK: Although there is no hint of evidence that climate change is not real, the emails appear to show researchers manipulating raw data and discussing how to dodge Freedom of Information requests. (11/25) [59];
  • Daily Telegraph story: Thousands of documents stolen from the University of East Anglia (UEA) also seem to show that academics on both sides of the Atlantic discussed deleting sensitive emails to evade Freedom of Information requests from climate change sceptics. (11/24) [60]
  • Here's what Phil Jones wrote in one of the released emails (09:41 AM 2/2/2005):

Mike,

I presume congratulations are in order - so congrats etc! Just sent loads of station data to Scott. Make sure he documents everything better this time ! And don't leave stuff lying around on ftp sites - you never know who is trawling them. The two MMs [McKitrick, McIntyre] have been after the CRU station data for years. If they ever hear there is a Freedom of Information Act now in the UK, I think I'll delete the file rather than send to anyone. Does your similar act in the US force you to respond to enquiries within 20 days? - our does ! The UK works on precedents, so the first request will test it. We also have a data protection act, which I will hide behind. Tom Wigley has sent me a worried email when he heard about it - thought people could ask him for his model code. He has retired officially from UEA so he can hide behind that. IPR should be relevant here, but I can see me getting into an argument with someone at UEA who'll say we must adhere to it ! -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:18, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

• And why not have The Financial Times of the UK [61] join the party (registration required, but it's free) -- referencing the very blog post that's the supposed BLP violation: Lesson 2: Don't evade Freedom of Information requests. As noted in the Science Magazine link above, many of the e-mails discuss how to destroy documents in anticipation of Freedom of Information requests. That's a criminal offense in the United Kingdom (where the CRU is located). IT folks should be aware that an increasing amount of data (particularly scientific and research data gathered via public funding) is subject to FOIA. They should work with researchers to ensure documents are stored and organized with that in mind. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 04:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

-- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:16, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your usual spin-doctored, scare-mongering version of the facts with special bold bits that were the same bold bits Glenn Beck showed the other night. The simple fact is this: there is no evidence that any emails or data were actually deleted. They are allegations, not confirmations. The only actual criminal offense was perpetrated by the hackers who stole the information. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:25, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Mention of news reports about claimed FOIA violations would be in order so long as undue weight is not given. Debating the meaning of individual primary sources (i.e. the emails) is WP:OR.

WP:BLP should not be a problem so long as wide-circulation media outlets are the source. Blogs are not sufficient because moving info from a (low-readership) blog to (high-readership) Wikipedia makes Wikipedia the publisher of said info and liable to court proceedings if the claim is not provably correct (because people can 'sue in England').

The publisher needn't be especially noteworthy, mainstream or even reliable, assuming proper contextual info is provided, so long as it has reasonably broad readership.Dduff442 (talk) 00:36, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

"The publisher needn't be especially noteworthy, mainstream or even reliable" Um....no. Sources must be reliable. Readership is irrelevant. We have specific policies and guidelines about this: WP:V and WP:RS and they are not negotiable on this talk page. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

• There are quite a few WP:RS that report deletion of emails in a way that suggests it's significant. The Telegraph covers it [62] and includes a comment by Michael Mann: "Prof Mann also said he could not "justify" a request from Prof Jones that he should delete some of his own emails to prevent them from being seen by outsiders. "I can't justify the action, I can only speculate that he was feeling so under attack that he made some poor decisions frankly and I think that's clear."" They also cover it further [63] where they refer to it as one of the most contentious emails: " Climate change sceptics tried to use Freedom of Information laws to obtain raw climate data submitted to an IPCC report known as AR4. The scientists did not want their email exchanges about the data to be made public" and again [64] when Nigel Lawson says "They were talking about destroying various files in order to prevent data being revealed under the Freedom of Information Act" (Lawson is firmly in the "climate change isn't as bad as it's claimed in terms of the policy changes that are required" camp). Phil Jones himself directly addresses it in The Guardian: [65] "We've not deleted any emails or data here at CRU. I would never manipulate the data one bit - I would categorically deny that". The Wall Street Journal mentions it here [66] " In one email, Dr. Jones asked others to delete certain emails, apparently after some data were requested by a climate-change skeptic under the Freedom of Information Act", and Science mentioned it via one of their news editors [67], where a link between the law and FOI and deleting emails is made. Brumski (talk) 01:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Additional source

The Stolen E-mails: Has 'Climategate' been overblown'? From TIME. I'm a bit hesitant to actually edit this article, but perhaps worth citing briefly re: press coverage? It specifically addresses the debate over what to name the incident ("Climategate" vs. "Swifthack"?!?) MastCell ^Talk 00:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, anything Blahgate uses US-centric terminology. The term "Climategate" is only popular in the United States, and among a very few US-influenced media outlets. You would need a decent smattering of international sources to really justify using this term. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest you to try to search for "Climategate" in the French Google news. I bet you would be surprised by the very reliable sources openly reporting on Le Climategate. So much for the US-centric usage theory... If anything, it is in the US and UK that the mainstream media tries to avoid the word, while the rest of the world is having a ball using it. Dimawik (talk) 02:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It must be made clear that media outlets are using the term, not Wikipedia. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Wouldn't want wikipedia to use the most widely-known international media-sourced phrase available when "Climate Research Unit email hacking incident" was still available.Nightmote (talk) 03:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

We aren't talking about the article title, which should be as neutral as possible ("Climategate" implies guilt, due to the association with Watergate). -- Scjessey (talk) 03:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

US-centric? Not in Wikipedia? Take a look at the Wikipedia articles in other languages. -- SEWilco (talk) 04:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we need to mention the media. While I strongly support keeping the reference to Climategate in WP, personally I dislike the term. Unfortunately, no other concise label had appeared in time to become popular, and by now, I think, it is too late to coin one. The name of the article in WP is a non-starter for any media outlet for obvious reasons (again, I am not in favor of changing the name of the article). Something along the lines, "frequently referred to as Climategate by the media" will work for me. To Nightmote: in WP, there are rules that, if followed, really discourage the use of suffix "-gate" in the article titles - and I think that it is good for an encyclopedia (note that I am also an active supporter of keeping the word in the first sentence of the article). Also note that Google search is smart enough to find the redirect and thus our work comes up first in Google search for "Climategate". Dimawik (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm giving up on any further comments on this, because I'm beginning to sound nuts. The argument is that the predominantly left-leaning scientific community and green profiteers like Al Gore, with the deliberate support of the MSM, have hijacked the peer-review process and used personal influence and statistical manipulation to establish their personal opinions as irrefutable scientific "fact", gaining power, prestige, and wealth while de-constructing and taxing the industrialized capitalistic Western world. That's nuts. But it's just as nutty to assume that there *can* be no truth to the assertion. Eisenhower feared and fought the military-industrial complex. Good for him. I'm going back to editing hockey articles. Nightmote (talk) 22:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I would be in favor of the "frequently referred..." construct you propose. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Began...with the hacking of..."

This is simply inaccurate. The scandal began with the RELEASE of hacked data. The hacking occurred over a month prior to the scandal. Indeed, part of the actual controversy revolves around a BBC reporter choosing not to run the story, after being given the data well before it became public.

Incidentally, this is part of the reason that "CRU e-mail hacking incident" is an absurd article title. If you don't want to call it Climatgate (and I understand the reasoning even though I don't find it convincing) it should at least be called something like "CRU Controversy."

In any event, the opening line should be corrected to "began with the release of data acquired by hackers from the..." or something to that effect. Drolz09 (talk) 03:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That sort of makes sense, but you could argue that it did begin with the hack if you regard the article as a sort of "timeline" of events. Personally, I think your interpretation would be correct because the "timeline" approach is more in the vein of a Wikinews article. I am opposed to the use of the word "controversy" in the title of any Wikipedia article, per WP:WTA. It is rare that a case can be made for its use to be neutral. -- Scjessey (talk) 03:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"The scandal began with the RELEASE of hacked data" - perhaps, but the incident began with the theft of the files. This is about the incident, so... Guettarda (talk) 03:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

If incident is used here to mean "an individual occurrence or event," then you are correct, but in that case, it also ended with the hacking. If, on the other hand, incident means "an embarrassing occurrence, esp. of a social nature," then it began with the release of the emails. The reality is that incident is wholly inappropriate as a description of this controversy, and the sentence is still in error.Drolz09 (talk) 03:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"after being given the data well before it became public" do you have a reliable source that confirm this?
—Apis (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

If BBC reporter Paul Hudson admitting that he got the emails on October 12 counts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/paulhudson/2009/11/climategate-cru-hacked-into-an.shtml Drolz09 (talk) 03:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, no, not in itself I think. :( There might be more about this later when the police investigation is complete. Very interesting though.
—Apis (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So a BBC reporter admitting on a BBC blog that he personally received the emails on October 12, more than a month before this article says the "incident" "began" is not a viable source? What, would does the BBC need to report that a BBC reporter posted an admission on his BBC blog before it actually happened? Drolz09 (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

This issue seems to keep coming up as people seem to keep misinterpreting Paul Hudson's comment (although many people pointed out that people appeared to be misinterpreting his comment before any clarification) despite the fact he clarified the situation the day later [68]. There is no evidence he received any e-mails from any hack nor has he ever claimed he did. He did receive some of the e-mails discussing him which were copied to him. There has been some suggestion in news sources (well one that I saw) that the hacking began significantly before the documents were released but no evidence was provided for any of the claims Nil Einne (talk) 04:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well I yield that point, although it is some remarkably poor wording on his part. That does not change the main point though, which is that the scandal/controversy began with the release of the data. The "incident" began and ended (or more properly, occurred/took place) with the hack. There is no way that the opening sentence is appropriate to the article. Drolz09 (talk) 04:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Interesting to note how easy it was to misinterpret text when we didn't know the whole context. That's also why it's better with a secondary source, we let someone else do the research, and then trust in the journalistic integrity of the source. Still, if someone has sent copies to him earlier it makes me wonder at least, but well have to wait and see.
—Apis (talk) 04:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Well secondary sources aren't perfect either [69] although that may say more about that particular secondary source then anything else (interesting the article says he was unavailable to comment, maybe it was because they apparently didn't bother to read his next blog post which came out the next day and 2 days before the Daily Mail article). Interesting enough, a comment pointing out that the Daily Mail had misunderstood what Hudson was saying and that Hudson had clarified the situation the day later is one of the 'lowest rated' comments which perhaps says a lot about the Daily Mail readership or at least comment raters. Nil Einne (talk) 04:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm the one who introduced the "began with" verbiage.[70] The reason why is that the previous verbiage implied that the controversy was over rather than ongoing. It might not be perfect, but it's better than it was before. If you can think of a better way to phrase it, that's fine with me. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Climategate and CRU Hack as separate articles

I am not a wikipedia expert but it seems to me that these are in fact two separate issues. It's entirely possible for one person to be vehemently opposed to both hacking and scientific malfeasance.

The two issues really have no relation to each other; that is, whether or not the emails were obtained legally has no bearing on whether they reveal corruption. The opposite is also true; whether or not the emails constitute corruption has no bearing on whether they were obtained legally. The only reason that this would not be the case is if the emails had been manipulated by the hackers, but not only has no one alleged this--they have been determined genuine.

Accordingly, neither issue should taint the other on Wikipedia. If the emails reveal corruption, the article on them should not be cluttered with discussion of how the hacking was also corrupt. This amounts to instantiating "two wrongs makes a right" in an Wikipedia article. Again, the opposite is equally true.

Also, the hack occurred months prior to the actual scandal, and the hackers are unidentified. There is no reason to believe that they are even affiliated with the principle actors in the current scandal, but when they are discussed in the same article, they are effectively conflated with the skeptics, unfairly impugning the reputations of the latter. Drolz09 (talk) 03:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In reading the article, I was thinking the same thing. There really should be an article related to the scandal and the fallout in terms of the science community and its impact on the overall view of global warming ("Climategate"), and a separate one covering the act of leaking the documents ("the incident"). Tencious9 (talk) 05:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Keep adding material and when a subject gains too much material it will tend to be split off. No need yet to plan what will grow. -- SEWilco (talk) 05:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like a WP:POVFORK. Without the hacking incident climategate would not have occured. This topic might already be in the discussion archivesChelydramat (talk) 05:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I hardly see how these events can be considered the same subject. WWI might not have occurred without the Arch Duke being assassinated, but that doesn't mean they are inextricably linked and need to be on the same page. Also, I'm advocating a "fork" explicitly for neutrality. As I said, it's possible to oppose both hacking and corruption. The moral standing of the hack has no bearing on the science. If Climategate is a fake scandal (it's not, sorry), it is because of the content of the emails, not how they were acquired. If, for instance, the hacking were ongoing, or in any way continuing to play a role in the analysis of the documents, it would have a place here, but that is not the case.Drolz09 (talk) 05:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's the same subject and we don't need two articles. So, no. Viriditas (talk) 05:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You cannot separate the two. The security breach would not be notable were it not for the release of the e-mails. The provenance of the e-mails is central to their authenticity. While we do not know who leaked the e-mails, they must have intended to embarrass the writers of the e-mails. The Four Deuces (talk) 06:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Right, as I said, the only importance the breach can have is if they somehow affect the veracity of the emails. Yet, even though no one contends that it does, discussion of the breach absolutely DOMINATES the article. The topics wouldn't need to be split except for the fact that the Wikipedia "Ruling Party" is so relentlessly shameless in its employment of the NPOV tag as a means to force POV. Drolz09 (talk) 08:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. The hack is a central part of the story. Frankly, I see this as just another bid to hide the crime that started this controversy - we've seen people arguing that there was no crime, now we're seeing people arguing that the crime should be hidden away in another article. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So, the main story in the Smoking/Cancer issue is the leak of proprietary data by whistleblowers? Pentagon Papers/Ellsberg? Is your contention that any malfeasance which is revealed due to criminal activity is thereby excused? Or is it just that the real story is always the way in which it is revealed? So Watergate is actually about an observant security guard? Neither claim has merit. In fact, the reverse is, at the very least, more accurate: that is, if someone knows that a crime is being committed and commits a lesser crime with intent to stop it, a reasonable person could see that as justified. The claim you are making, that when ongoing criminal activity is brought to light by a lesser crime, it is excused, defies all reason. Drolz09 (talk) 09:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean. Problem though is that you're jumping the gun a little. There's no evidence of serious wrong-doing on the part of the CRU folks. As it stands, the story of stolen email, the content of the email, and the way the content was cherry-picked and spun wildly is all woven together. Guettarda (talk) 12:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

i agree they are two distinct topics (hacking being a technical): [71][72] 93.86.205.97 (talk) 11:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The hackers made their intention plain, and to some extent they have been successful in the short term. It is unlikely that this subject will need two articles in the near future. --TS 12:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I weakly endorse the idea that two articles are required. The provenance of the emails remains in question, and the motives, methods, and legal status are under investigation by the university and the police. Totally apart from that aspect of the scandal is the appearance of impropriety on the part of individual scientists, missing/destroyed raw data, and the impact on the Copenhagen Climate Summit and the Anthropogenic Global Warming hypothesis. Like John Wilkes Booth and Abraham Lincoln, the two topics are vitally linked, but essentially separate.Nightmote (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I would not be in favor of splitting the article. That would almost certainly result in a POV fork. The significant detail of this incident is the data theft, and the local-level consequences that arise from it (security, staff being replaced, UK government investigation). It is unlikely to have any significant impact on the Copenhagen Climate Summit (from a point of view of policies, treaties, etc.) and it will have absolutely no effect on the Anthropogenic Global Warming hypothesis (or the science supporting it). At best, it will promote stricter standards among scientists working in climate-related fields. It might provide fuel for the James Inhofe's of this world for a little while, I suppose. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The claim that the data theft is the significant issue is unsupportable. Nobody in their right mind cares about an isolated incident of data theft. Claiming otherwise is especially absurd here, because the "stolen" data was subject to FOI requests anyway. The only reason the hack is at all relevant is because of what it revealed. Regardless of whether you believe the data reveal malfeasance, that is the issue at hand. It is not POV to answer this question independently of the question of the hacker's identity/motives, because the second issue cannot be said to have any bearing on the outcome of the first. Drolz09 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It "revealed" absolutely nothing, which just leaves the theft as the important and significant matter. All this alleged conspiracy has already been debunked repeatedly and all over the place. Here, for example. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The majority of the article is not about a criminal investigation, but about the content and reaction to those contents. You are completely jumping the gun here by saying that it is all settled and done with because that is obviously not the case. The scientific review has only just been declared. I don't see how you can objectively reach this viewpoint. Ignignot (talk) 21:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Quite easily, actually. Just as the apoplectic wingnuts of the Limbaugh persuasion had already condemned the scientists within mere moments of the hack coming to light, and by misinterpreting the emails and data (such as the complete misunderstanding of the word "trick", or even what anyone was referring to). -- Scjessey (talk) 21:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The fact that you continue to flip out over the responses of "wingnuts," etc. proves that those reactions are what makes Climategate notable. If climate science is as robust as everyone here believes, it's hard to see how this compulsive suppression of dissent is warranted. Drolz09 (talk) 21:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me? With respect, the REAL story here is likely to be that some climate change deniers, backed by big oil, hacked into the CRU to find, and then misrepresent, data related to climate change for the purposes of sabotaging the summit. I'm willing to bet that is all there is to it. All this other stuff is fanciful nonsense, quite frankly. The focus of this article should be about the hacking incident, and then the misrepresentation and lies that followed it. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:31, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Contested edits

I changed:

Controversy arose after various allegations were made including that climate scientists colluded to withhold scientific information, intefered with the peer-review process to prevent dissenting scientific papers from being published, deleted e-mails to prevent data being revealed under the Freedom of Information Act, and manipulated data to make the case for global warming appear stronger than it is.

to:

Controversy arose after various allegations were made that the emails showed evidence that climate scientists colluded to withhold scientific information, intefered with the peer-review process to prevent dissenting scientific papers from being published, deleted e-mails to prevent data being revealed under the Freedom of Information Act, and manipulated data to make the case for global warming appear stronger than it is. Some prominent climate scientists, such as Richard Somerville, have called the incident a smear campaign.

This was contested by Viriditas. I'm not sure why. For justification see (currently)recent edit history. Any specific problems with these changes?--Heyitspeter (talk) 06:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No, you deleted

Kevin Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research stated that the sceptics have selectively quoted words and phrases out of context in an attempt to sabotage the Copenhagen global climate summit in December.

and you changed

Controversy arose after various allegations were made including that climate scientists colluded

to

Controversy arose after various allegations were made that the emails showed evidence that climate scientists colluded

(Emphasis added). Why the deletion? And what's your basis for claiming that "the emails showed evidence"? Guettarda (talk) 06:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(And obviously it wasn't just contested by Viriditas, I also contested the changes. Guettarda (talk) 06:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC))

These are the edits indicated in the passages I pasted here. I didn't realize you contested the pages. You said you were enforcing what you saw as WP:BRD. In any case, I made the deletion that section because, as I said in the edit summary, it is the opinion of a scientist implicated in the controversy and with no indication of this it is not contextualized appropriately. The following sentence provides similar information from a noncontroversial source. I made the change because "my" version better represents the sources and the subject matter of the article itself.--Heyitspeter (talk) 06:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No, they aren't. There is no mention of your deletion of "Kevin Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research stated that the sceptics have selectively quoted words and phrases out of context in an attempt to sabotage the Copenhagen global climate summit in December." And you didn't add the sentence about Richard Somerville, you merely changed the first word of it.

You say your version better represents the sources. Can you explain what you mean? Guettarda (talk) 06:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

For example, the idea that most of this is about "selectively quoted words and phrases out of context" is one of the most central ideas to the whole issue. So what's your rationale for removing it from the lead? As for sources - the material you removed appears to have been produced by AP's staff writers. The latter is based on a post from SolveClimate.com that was re-distributed by Reuters. What makes one "noncontroversial" and the other, presumably, "controversial"? As for the "collusion" sentence - your change makes the sentence longer and clunkier without changing the meaning in any important way. So how is that an improvement? Guettarda (talk) 06:41, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Such controversial and opinionated statements have no place in Wikipedia without strong evidence. No such strong evidence has been found. --TS 08:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Myron Ebell again

Continuing this discussion...

Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Information_suppression states that "concealing relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value" violates NPOV.

This is the relevant passage from the article:

Myron Ebell of the Competitive Enterprise Institute said the e-mails showed that some climate scientists "are more dedicated to promoting the alarmist political agenda than in scientific research. Some of the e-mails that I have read are blatant displays of personal pettiness, unethical conniving, and twisting the science to support their political position."

This is verbatim from the source [73]:

"It is clear that some of the 'world's leading climate scientists,' as they are always described, are more dedicated to promoting the alarmist political agenda than in scientific research," said Ebell, whose group is funded in part by energy companies. "Some of the e-mails that I have read are blatant displays of personal pettiness, unethical conniving, and twisting the science to support their political position." (emphasis added)

The phrase 'whose group is funded in part by energy companies' is relevant information about sources or sources' credentials that is needed to fairly judge their value that has been strangely excised from the middle of sourced information and should be inserted into the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dduff442 (talk • contribs) 08:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you on this because these pressure groups and think tanks exist precisely to advance the interests of their patrons. But consensus is against adding the text at least in this form. --TS 09:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The appearance of consensus is misleading. The standing was 2-1-3 F/Neutral/A (it's 3-1-3 if your support is added). Let's see what emerges here and debate the merits of the point. Mere objection is not sufficient to block progress -- the point must be defensible by reference to the rules. The onus is on those objecting to enter into debate.Dduff442 (talk) 09:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

If I understand this correctly, Myron Ebell is a lobbyist? I find the whole idea of adding the comments by lobbyists very odd. How are their opinions notable? Does the CEI have such a huge influence that it makes their statements notable?
—Apis (talk) 10:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That's a very good point. Ebell's patrons are in effect paying to have his statements appear in newspapers and the like. If we then quote him aren't we giving undue weight to paid representations? --TS 10:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec 2) I explained above. It's not relevant, as the only purpose is the implication that the sponsors affect the statements, which statement wouldn't be acceptable in Wikipedia even if explicitly stated.

Ebell is a scientist working for the CEI, which is a think tank, rather than a lobbyist working for a lobbying organization. If he were a lobbyist, the identity of the specific sponsors might be relevantHowever, CEI wouldn't then be a non-profit. The separate question of whether the Post's statement is more correct than Obama being sponsored by energy companies (some energy companies did contribute to his campaign) might tben need to be investgated. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Is it claimed that the phrase is not information about sources or sources' credentials or that it is not needed to fairly judge their value? We have no authority to form a consensus on this issue while flying in the face of Wiki guidelines.

Your general objections cannot stand in the face of the specific rule I'm quoting.Dduff442 (talk) 11:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"scientist working for the CEI" - that's a good one! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Ebell is a paid media jockey and is a longterm political activist, having worked as a senior legislative assistant to John Shadegg. (see CEI's own bio of Ebell). --TS 11:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Also see his "impressive" scientific bibliography: [74]. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Obviously Mr Ebell is none other than the great Larry David [75].Dduff442 (talk) 12:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I've removed it as I don't think this is the kind of informed, expert commentary we should be looking at for inclusion in that section. The press is full of hype for anybody who wants that, and people come to Wikipedia for an insight into the facts of the situation, behind the hype. --TS 12:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

While I agree with you, others may not. His notability is doubtful but not completely absent. I'd be satisfied if the words cut from the Post piece -- 'whose group is funded in part by energy companies' -- were included. If there's consensus to cut Ebell's remarks entirely then I'm fine with that too.Dduff442 (talk) 12:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I tend to agree he's not notable, but I'm not OK with the "energy company" statement. As stated, it's accurate, as misleading as to state that Obama is funded by energy companies. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That Obama's campaign was funded by energy companies is relevant to him, though I'll wager their contribution to his coffers was a small fraction of the total unlike in this case. The CEI page lists ExxonMobil and Ford as sponsors -- both firms with an interest in energy policy. Extraordinary justification would be required to rationalise cutting out six words from what is otherwise a direct lift from the Post article. The policy is pretty clear as well.Dduff442 (talk) 16:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Responses by Whitehouse spokesman Gibbs

Obviously we should add a reference to Robert Gibbs' statement Monday, when asked whether the affair "Climate change is happening...I don't think that's anything that is, quite frankly among most people, in dispute anymore." [76]. Should this appear under "elected national representatives"? Although Gibbs is a press secretary, he speaks for White House official policy. --TS 10:02, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I do not see the relevance. The Four Deuces (talk) 10:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Obama is the President of one of the most prolific carbon polluters in the world, and one of his key energy policies was a proposal for a strong carbon-limitation regime. That's why the responses by his spokesman to press questions on this matter is relevant--just as Gordon Brown's response is relevant. --TS 10:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's arguably one of the most notable political comments, the US is a key player globally, the response by the US government/president regarding this is highly interesting because it will have a direct effect on global politics (e.g. in Copenhagen now).
—Apis (talk) 10:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Russia response may be interesting as well. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 11:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

interesting: [77] According to the Mail, computer hackers in Tomsk have been used in the past by the Russian secret service - the FSB - to close down websites which promote views not approved by the Kremlin. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 11:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That's an allegation published by a (not particularly reliable) newspaper. It isn't an official response by Russia. --TS 11:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

i know. i just thought it was interesting and somewhat relevant. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 11:52, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

This page is for discussing the article contents and how to improve it, not for chatting about whatever catches our interest. --TS 12:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

whatever. your perception is wrong. that interesting fact IS related to the article topic, not necessarily to this thread. 93.86.205.97 (talk) 15:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but that quote doesn’t come close to being notable. It isn’t even clear from the article when he said it. There no indication that it was in response to ClimateGate, and even if a transcript shows it was in response to a question about ClimateGate, there’s no indication that the White House has actually done anything to investigate and reach a conclusion. It is an extremely common, perfunctory, restatement of current opinion. SPhilbrickT 14:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Mr. Gibbs was speaking on Monday and had been specifically asked whether this affair would affect Copenhagen. If you don't regard this statement by the press representative of the most powerful government on the planet as "notable", my impression that the phrase "not notable" is often used as a synonym for "stuff I don't like" is strengthened. --TS 15:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In addition, the US is the biggest emitter of CO2 in the world, so the US Government's position on CO2 emissions and reaction to the CRU thing is probably the most significant single national response, with the possible exception of the UK because it happened in their jurisdiction. The only other political response that would be as important would be the UN or the results from Copenhagen. Ignignot (talk) 15:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec)I do not appreciate the barely veiled implication. Let’s talk about the article, and not impugn motives. I think I’ve managed to do that.

Your claim that Gibbs was “specifically asked whether this affair would affect Copenhagen”, may be correct, but it is not in the article. And no, I don’t autmatically assume that a press spokeperson’s boilerplate response is automatically notable.SPhilbrickT 15:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It is not clear to me why this is notable, either. Robert Gibbs is asked about everything by the press corps (he was asked about Tiger Woods, FFS!). To me, it seems like editors want to see this quote in the article because he said, "Climate change is happening..." If his words concerning the CRU incident specifically become significant in a preponderance of reliable sources, then it is reasonable to mention it. Right now, that is not really the case. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

To what extent can Gibbs be said to be speaking for the Administration? If what he says reflects the position of the Administration, then I would call it notable. If not, then it's more debatable. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

He is paid to be an official spokesman for the administration. And he is paid to waffle when he is unsure what the administration position is on anything related to the administration. He is not, however, paid to independently determine facts. Collect (talk) 18:32, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not quite what I asked. If what he says is the official position of the Administration, then that is notable whether or not that position is based on (what you regard as) the facts. The question is whether his statements represent the Administration's official position. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Trick

I find this edit very odd [78] especially the comment "rv: you wouldn't need so many refs if it was true". All the refs are from the side of the University of East Anglia / RealClimate. --Rumping (talk) 10:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The edit being removed was a tendentious and opinionated synthesis. --TS 10:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So you are happy with a long quote from RealClimate which fails to say whether or not tree-ring and thermometer data were spliced together but unhappy with the following:

The trick involved replacing proxy temperature data from tree rings in recent years with data from air temperatures, following the tree-ring reconstruction up to 1960 and the measured temperature after that. This contradicted an earlier statement on RealClimate by Michael Mann in 2004 which said

"No researchers in this field have ever, to our knowledge, 'grafted the thermometer record onto' any reconstruction. It is somewhat disappointing to find this specious claim (which we usually find originating from industry-funded climate disinformation websites) appearing in this forum."

with refs at

• "The Stolen E-Mails: Has 'Climategate' Been Overblown?". Time. 2009-12-07. Retrieved 2009-12-08.
• "Climate change e-mails have been quoted totally out of context". The Times. 2009-12-08. Retrieved 2009-12-08.
• "CRU update 2". University of East Anglia. 2009-11-24. Retrieved 2009-12-08.
• "Myth vs. Fact Regarding the 'Hockey Stick' - response to comment 4". Real Climate. 2004-12-22. Retrieved 2009-12-08.

There are clearly serious POV games being played with this article. Were the two series spliced together or not? What do the sources say? --Rumping (talk) 11:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The tree ring metrics were used as a temperature proxy which was tailed off for the time series where more reliable metrics were available. That isn't a controversial statement, nor is it an allegation of any wrongdoing at all. --TS 11:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So were the two series/metrics spliced together? I think you are saying yes, but your words are unclear, as is the current article and the current quote from RealClimate. The sources are much clearer: they were spliced.

Whether this involves wrongdoing is subjective. RealClimate now takes your current position that there was little wrong with the splicing "trick"; five years ago it described such splicing claims as specious industry-funded climate disinformation, so presumably at that time such splicing was not seen as being so reasonable. So let's state clearly in the article that the "trick" was splicing the two series, with the sources and (for POV balance) the two RealClimate quotes. I do not see how RealClimate can be a reliable source now if it was not five years ago. --Rumping (talk) 12:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The use of the word "spliced" is inexact and suggests sloppy work. The works in question have been subject to repeated peer review so we can rule out sloppiness. We cannot directly or indirectly suggest sloppiness, nor render important disagreements as debates over sloppy grammar. --TS 12:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

OK - I am not fixed on "spliced", even though splicing is in fact a skilled technical opperation, and it is a fair description of what was done. Would you prefer "joined", "stuck together" or something else? In fact the reverted edit did not use any of these words: it used "replaced" as does the reference from Time. So without using "spliced", I take it we now have consensus. --Rumping (talk) 13:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

"Spliced", "joined", "glued", "stuck together" or any other verb suggesting an ad hoc operation not technically justified by the mathematics and the science would be inappropriate. The RealScience description really is very good and we needn't strain hard to improve on it using our own synthesis. Their wording is "the 'trick' is just to plot the instrumental records along with reconstruction so that the context of the recent warming is clear." And that's what it's all about. --TS 13:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I’m not sure your contention that the “works in question have been subject to repeated peer review” is accurate. My recollection is that the work in question is cover art for some publication. If cover art is subject to peer review, it will come as a complete surprise to me. I’ll have to dig to source my recollection. I don’t question that both the temps and the tree ring values have been peer-reviewed, but that isn’t the issue. The issue is whether it is OK to create a hybrid curve, consisting of tree ring data through c1960 and thermometer temps post c1960. In my profession, that would be unethical. Is there evidence it is ethical among climate scientists (assuming my recollection of what happened is correct)?SPhilbrickT 14:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The point I have been making is that the "trick" was not just plotting the the two series together. The sources say the same thing. If that is really how you read the current article and the RealClimate quote, then the current article and RealClimate are misleading you. What happened was that the tree-ring data was truncated for recent decades and replaced by the thermometer data, with the two lines being drawn as one. This was not technically justified by the mathematics, and the ad-hoc scientific justification was that showing the reconstruction after the 1960s would be misleading because the reconstruction did not track actual temperatures. What you describe as plotting one series along with another is the second chart at the end of the University of East Anglia press release [79] linked in the reverted edit. What actually happended with the "trick" was the first chart in that press release where the tree-ring and thermometer series are joined to become one, by replacing part of one set of data with another. That is what the Time, The Times and UEA sources in the reverted edit say. Have you looked at the sources? You are now making my point for me as to the confusion in the current article and the need to reinsert the deleted edits. --Rumping (talk) 14:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Rumping, you're conflating several different facts: a particular figure was under discussion, and the data sets and conclusions from them have been discussed in articles that have survived multiple independent peer review. As for the CRU document you cite saying anything about splicing, what it actually says is: "To produce temperature series that were completely up-to-date (i.e. through to 1999) it was necessary to combine the temperature reconstructions with the instrumental record, because the temperature reconstructions from proxy data ended many years earlier whereas the instrumental record is updated every month." Nothing about joining, splicing, sticking together, gluing or indeed anything not justified by the requirements of faithfulness to the most reliable data.

Sphilbrick, according to UEA the actual case under discussion was "a figure for the WMO Statement on the Status of the Global Climate in 1999." --TS 14:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

So you would be happy with "combine"? You do accept that the series on the WMO cover [80] combine tree-ring data up to 1960 and thermometer data after 1960 into single series? --Rumping (talk) 15:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

As I've indicated, I'm happy with our use of the RealClimate description which is more than adequate, is a reliable source on this field of expertise, and doesn't rely on synthesis. --TS 15:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I will try again another way. Does the RealClimate description suggest to you that the "trick" was to combine tree-ring data up to 1960 and thermometer data after 1960 into single series? --Rumping (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a description on a matter of expertise provided by experts, and is consistent with other expert descriptions. --TS 20:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes or no would have done. So you can't tell us what the RealClimate statement means. That makes it a bad statement and it needs to be replaced. All you have given is an appeal to authority (part of the list of red herring fallacies), and in this case RealClimate is an unreliable and ambiguous apologetic source, strongly connected to the leaked emails. The secondary sources linked above and that from UEA are clear and therefore better. --Rumping (talk) 23:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I brought up the issue of reliability at the WP:RSN, and the end result of the discussion was that RealClimate is reliable under WP:SELFPUB.[81] A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Small earthquake on "Reactions"

I've renamed a couple of the subsections of "Reactions" to sharpen the focus to expert commentary (there is much uninformed commentary and we'd do well to ignore it). I've also moved the newspaper section to the bottom and renamed it "Miscellaneous media". Frankly given the patchiness of the contents I'd rather we did away with it altogether and reassigned any useful material from there to other subsections.

The media coverage of this affair has not been particularly good, and we've done a far better job of covering it ourselves. I don't think we should highlight the media coverage per se. --TS 12:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. Msm (mainstream media) hasn't done a good job of appropriately covering the subject. But wikipedia, which is comprised of the educated masses, has done a much better (still not perfect...but much better) job of covering the subject. Give wikipedia a pat on the back, they deserve it=D.Smallman12q (talk) 01:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll take that pat on the back, and raise you an ice-cold beer! Chilled in one of those vanishing glaciers, in fact. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Death Threats

I challenge you to give me a single reason that anonymous death threats have any relation to the controversy. The only reason that sentence is included is because it makes the entire skeptic side look bad. This is obviously ridiculous, because prominent people from all sides receive death threats all the time. Noting it here is just prejudicial. Drolz09 (talk) 12:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you read the cited source, which is highly noteworthy: "Two of the scientists involved in "Climategate" – the e-mail hacking incident at the Climatic Research Unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia, UK – have been emailed death threats since the contents of their private e-mails were leaked to the world. No further information can be revealed about these particular threats at present because they are currently under investigation with the FBI in the United States. Many other CRU scientists and their colleagues have received torrents of abusive and threatening e-mails since the leaks first began in mid-November 2009." [82] This means that there are now two criminal investigations taking place into this affair, one on each side of the Atlantic. That is very significant news. The harassment of scientists by anti-science activists is also indisputably a sigificant part of the story. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

At most, harassment is part of a broader narrative on the global warming issue. It has no specific relevance to this controversy unless you can provide evidence that the threats were made by someone with a tangible connection to either the hackers or the skeptics who are quoted in this article. You don't see me adding that climateaudit is routinely DDoSed. Drolz09 (talk) 12:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Climate Audit's alleged DDOSing clearly isn't relevant to this issue. But as the cited source notes, there is a direct link between the file theft and these threats: they "have been emailed death threats since the contents of their private e-mails were leaked to the world." It may make you unconfortable to acknowledge it, but the people sending these threats are global warming sceptics. If you consider yourself to be in that category then I'm afraid you're sharing it with some very unpleasant people - indeed, criminals. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There are nuts on every side of every debate. The fact that some of them took this particular scandal as an opportunity to make death threats does not "link" them to the scandal. They are no more relevant to it than eco-terrorist nuts on the other side. There's no reason to mention them here except to make everyone skeptical of global warming guilty by association. Which, it seems, is your intention. Drolz09 (talk) 12:50, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The theft was perpetrated against the CRU, and they are the victims of this crime. It is entirely appropriate to describe the crime, including all aspects pertaining to it. It's relevant, topical, and significant. Viriditas (talk) 13:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact, it is the theft of the data that is the most significant detail of this entire incident, and should constitute the bulk of the article. Much of the fuss that has followed has been based on speculation and opinion. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Evidently you and the FBI part company on the matter of whether the death threats to climatologists are to be taken seriously. --TS 12:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Taking death threats seriously has nothing to do with whether or not they belong in this article. I'm not denying that they happened, but the fact that they did has no relevance to the question of whether there was fraudulent activity at CRU, or whether the hack was legal, etc. Drolz09 (talk) 12:44, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Tony and Chris are quite right - this is directly connected with the story. This doesn't appear to be a random coincidence. Or rather, since our sources see them as connected, we need to treat them as if they were connected and not substitute our own opinions. Guettarda (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

It's relevant to how some in the anti-science activist community have responded to this incident, as well as to the personal consequences for the scientists whose e-mails were stolen. -- ChrisO (talk) 12:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In that case they belong in another section of the article, and it needs to be phrased in a way that doesn't basically imply the threats came from leading skeptics. Drolz09 (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that much is clear from the context. --TS 13:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

In fact, if things like this are going to be included from either side; that is, "reactions" that do not actually have any relation to the veracity of issues at stake in the controversy, the article needs to be broken up into multiple sections. Since you refuse to fork the hack and controversy because you need to draw attention away from the latter, they should at least have their own section in the page: Something like Hack/Analysis of Emails/Reactions from Concerned Parties/Fallout (which is where death threats belong, if anywhere). Drolz09 (talk) 13:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please don't make accusations of bad faith against other editors. --TS 13:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO openly admitted to believing that the "real story" is the hack. It is transparently obvious to everyone that the dominant wikipedia editors are essentially a public relations firm for organizations that are the mouth pieces of climate activists. There's no reason to pretend otherwise. Drolz09 (talk) 13:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please see our policy on personal attacks. Making accusations like that against your fellow editors is unacceptable. Guettarda (talk) 13:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

<-Please, let’s avoid the characterizations, and return to the discussion of the article. ChrisO, I thought we had broad consensus that edit beyond trivial copy edits would be discussed and some semblance of consensus reached before inclusion in the article. I see no discussion of the addition of the death threat sentence. I think it is quite arguable whether it belongs anywhere in the article, but it most certainly does not belong in the lede. (Of course the FBI is investigating, that's what we pay then to do, but absent some evidence it is credible, it isn’t as important as a hundred other issues we’ve chosen not to include.) Please remove it, then propose in this talk what wording you suggest and its placement. We can then discuss it.SPhilbrickT 15:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

As the death threats were reported and a direct result of the leak, I'd suggest the incident merits inclusion though not very prominently.Dduff442 (talk) 15:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you guys mad? Criminals hacked into a university server and then caused a massive breach of privacy by publishing loads of emails. As a result, (1) climate sceptics had a large body of text from which they could cherry-pick what seemed to confirm their conspiracy theory, causing confusion right before an important conference; and (2) the scientists became the targets of death threats. And then we are supposed to discuss the speculations coming from (1) in detail, but downplay (2)??? Hans Adler 16:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

No, and Yes.SPhilbrickT 16:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The death threats have been covered by several reliable sources, so it belongs in the article. As for amount of coverage, we're supposed to determine weight based on its prominence among reliable sources. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Russian Hackers

Professor Jean-Pascal van Ypersele is not qualified to give an expert opinion on the hackers' identity, nor is he in a position to have personal knowledge of the event. Moreover, he doesn't even pretend to give an expert opinion; it's just rampant speculation. Even more ridiculous, his speculation that the hackers were Russian adds NOTHING to this article. What difference does it make if the hackers are Russian? Presumably it must be a matter of some importance to warrant the inclusion of speculation that is far more prejudicial than probative. Drolz09 (talk) 12:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Ypersele is Vice Chairman of the IPCC. As such, his opinion should go into the article. His opinion on this matter--expert or not--tells us something about the thinking of the scientific authorities about this matter. --TS 12:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Since when are "scientific authorities" polled on criminal activity? And again, what bearing does the nationality of the hackers have on the debate? Drolz09 (talk) 12:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

When it's a criminal matter that targets the scientific community. Much like when labs or homes of academics are targeted by animal rights activists. Guettarda (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, based on the idea that they have some insight into why they were targeted, as in "do you know anyone who might have something against you?" In this case, he blames paid Russian hackers, with no possible foundation. We already know the emails were hacked in order to make CRU look bad anyway. There's just no reason for this comment. Drolz09 (talk) 12:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The source makes it plain that Ypersele's claim is not without foundation, though it is of course speculation, as we make it plain that the hackers have not yet been identified. --TS 13:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Again, what if they are Russian? Does that somehow change the debate? It's one thing to include a fact like this if it becomes a fact, there's no justification for the speculation. Drolz09 (talk) 13:06, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring. So far, it is 4-1 for inclusion, so you need to focus more on persuading people to take your view, and less on reverts against consensus. Viriditas (talk) 13:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You people are obsessed with consensuses. It's 4-2. 83.134.87.192 (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Hope so. Thanks for the compliment. Guettarda (talk) 18:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Jean-Pascal van Ypersele is not a professional in the computer security arena. He is just a climatologist. It is very strange to see how people who are (for a good reason) fighting against including quotes on climatology from statements by people unrelated to the field, turn around and fight for an inclusion of a completely non-professional statement into an article. Delete it. Computer security is just as complex a field as climatology. Dimawik (talk) 19:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Van Ypersele is vice chair of the IPCC, the IPCC is the organisation that is the first, primary consumer of all the research that CRU does. It was the CRU that got hacked. This is going up the food-chain, to people whose job it is to find out what's going on here. Their views are based on an informed top-level overview. This is not comparable with the views of the CEO of some security company that didn't get the job of investigating the hack (as we had until a few days ago) or the views of other people who would have liked, but never did get, a job at CRU etc. (as a lot of the other noise here is based on) --Nigelj (talk) 20:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

A statement from Ypersele on this subject at this stage is important. There's no way it's going to be removed from the article. Arguing that Ypersele isn't an expert in field X or Y is missing the point that he is an expert in the opinion of the IPCC at this stage. --TS 20:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There is a very serious problem with the sourcing policy in this article. What is going on is basically analogous to treating the Nixon administration as the only reliable, official source in Watergate. Even though none of you believe that the data actually reveal fraudulent activity in the climate science community, you can't possibly prove their innocence by treating them as unimpeachable official sources and experts. Drolz09 (talk) 20:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The analogy doesn't apply. You're treating the entire scientific community as a single, monolithic entity, which is patently not the case. You're also treating this purely as a political rather than scientific issue. Your argument is essentially that of the most extreme anti-science activists, i.e. that because a few scientists have been accused of (completely unproven) wrongdoing then the entire scientific profession is discredited. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Au contraire, the Nixon analogy applies quite well. In this particular case, Ypersele represents IPCC, not the "scientific community". IPCC is in the very center of the scandal, just like the "Committee to Re-Elect the President" was in the Watergate. Dimawik (talk) 23:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

By all means offer context, but it is bizarre to suggest Ypersele's remarks are not relevant. If his statements are speculation then he surely must have drawn some fire in the media. Track that down and you're set.Dduff442 (talk) 00:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

At the very least, he has a vested interest in CRU being cleared of wrongdoing. A reasonable person could conclude that he is not a completely reliable source on the matter. Also, there has still been no answer to the question of how the hackers' nationality is relevant in the first place. Drolz09 (talk) 00:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Sceptics

This article uses the label 'sceptic' far too loosely. Social identity indicates why some involved in this issue would want to categorize others as 'sceptics'. But, care must be taken when adopting this terminology when neutrality is important.

The article makes is appear as if there is a group, the 'sceptics', whose members hold a uniformly rigid set of ideals. The article attributes many acts and beliefs to the 'sceptics'. In reality, there is no such group.

Is a 'climate sceptic' someone who doubts the existence of climate? Is a 'climate change sceptic' someone who believes the climate is always the same? These are words are used not to inform, but to assign social identity. And the assignmentof social identities is a good indicator of the loss of neutrality. JookBocks (talk) 16:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point actually. "Sceptic" is the chosen self-identification for a group that is called "contrarian" or "denialist" by others. It's a label like "Pro-Life" - it has little bearing on their actual use of skepticism. Guettarda (talk) 16:19, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Sceptics is fairly neutral language compared with deniers (etc).Dduff442 (talk) 16:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that's actually why it is to contentious - there is a group of people who are actual skeptics and want more research / more open research on climate change, and there is a group of people who call themselves skeptics who are just reacting against the greenhouse gas environmental warnings. Sorry, tried to phrase that as neutrally as possible but probably offended someone. Even those two groupings are wrong, there is such a broad range of views on the topic that set membership is fuzzy. All I know is, there is a group of people (let's call them "biased") who like to label other groups of people arbitrary things to pidgeonhole them. Ignignot (talk)

Would a link to environmental skepticism be helpful? Guettarda (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The 'denier' label is an unfortunate digression into politics. Some catch-all label is too useful to resist, however, on grounds of brevity alone. This isn't the only instance where very loose labelling is employed or actually useful. Still, use of the term should probably be minimised. "Joe Scroggs, who is sceptical..." is better than "climate sceptic Joe Scroggs".Dduff442 (talk) 16:49, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

All scientists ought to be sceptics -- it is the foundation of science, in fact. Collect (talk) 16:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Amen. It's a proposition AGW cheerleaders couldn't get their heads round yet. Luckily we are far more patient and understanding with them than they are with us. 83.134.87.192 (talk) 17:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Missing the point. This isn't about "skepticism", it's about professional contrarians. It's newspeak. I don't think we should be using such misleading terminology, certainly not without explanation. Guettarda (talk) 17:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense, some of the greatest scientists in history never were professionals. Science is of course about skepticism, it has nothing to do with positions or pay grades. I know AGW cheerleaders which it would be like that, then they could bully everybody into submission, but you constructivists can't have your cake and eat it too. 83.134.87.192 (talk) 17:36, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You seem confused, so let me clarify. The term "skeptic", in this context, is the descriptor of choice of the group that is otherwise called the "climate change denialists" (among other terms). It has nothing to do with science - many of them are non-scientists, like my senator. Many of them are also in the employ of the oil industry, or in the pet think-tanks of the oil industry. A few of them are real academics. But their "skepticism" is not scientific skepticism. It's simply a name that has been adopted by this group for PR purposes. Guettarda (talk) 19:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be very opinionated on the matter. I assume you have sources for this. I see anybody who calls himself or herself as a skeptic as somehow who wants to remind so-called scientists about scientific rigor. 83.134.87.192 (talk) 19:20, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I think 'climate skeptics' means 'AGW skeptics'. They doubt the explaination towards AGW, that is. It is quite consistent to other mainstream usage of 'skeptics' (e.g. epistomological skeptics: Those people who deny on whether (most forms of) knowledge is possible). --Kittyhawk2 (talk) 17:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Collect, you're absolutely correct. Unfortunetly, it's the term that most WP:RS are using. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

A piece on Sky News a short time ago about the "alternative" climate change conference being held at Copenhagen by a group of deniers/sceptics made rather a good point. They're not a monolithic bloc - some deny that global warming is happening at all, some agree that it is happening but deny that human activity is responsible, and some agree that it is both happening and man-made but say that it's either too late to do anything about it or that doing something about it would cause more harm than letting it happen. One could perhaps term them strong deniers, weak deniers and inactivists respectively. The problem is that there isn't really a satisfactory collective noun that covers all of them. Not all of them are deniers, while "sceptics" suggests that their views might be subject to revision or change, which really isn't the case for a lot of these people. Nonetheless "sceptics" is probably closer to the mark than any other term and is widely used by sources, so I suspect we're stuck with it. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There's no evidence that the views of the "experts" are open to revision or change either. Denier is an insanely prejudicial term to label everyone who questions global warming with. It overtly suggests the holocaust. Drolz09 (talk) 21:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Global warming has the potential to kill billions if not dealt with smartly. That's an order of magnitude more than the atrocities committed against the Jews. Just sayin'. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The denier label is an unfortunate digression into politics. This issue has become irrevocably politicised, however those on the green end of the argument erred practically as well as ethically when they swerved into this sort of underhanded technique.

Labelling all sceptics deniers dents the credibility of environmentalists. There's a continuum of so-called sceptics from those who'd place a ceiling of no more 1C in temp rise by 2100 all the way over to rent-a-scientist PR men. The problem is that labelling them *all* as deniers gives the real obstructionists the consolation of company -- something they'd have much less of if the 'denier' label was used more sparingly.

Deniers do exist; it's best to allow them to isolate themselves rather than force legions of the naive, ill-informed etc into their arms.Dduff442 (talk) 21:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Skepticism and denial are two entirely different things, although they may overlap and it may also be very hard to tell one from the other from the outside. Speculating about someone's reasoning for questioning things also takes into the realm of opinion and political bias. Plus, even on the most rock solid issues like night following day or gravity causing things to fall some people say things because they believe them, some because of some internal emotional reason, and some because they have been paid. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Confused about BLP tag

Sorry if I'm ignorant, but I don't understand why this talk page has a "biographies of living persons" tag. Is that tag used for current events as well as actual biographies? Just curious. MMagdalene722^{talk to me} 17:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Any article that includes the activities of living persons technically falls under the auspices of WP:BLP for their protection. This article refers to certain individuals in relation to a criminal investigation, for example, and for suggestions of impropriety. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:48, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks for the explanation. MMagdalene722^{talk to me} 18:17, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Jones email wording and other "maybe could have possibly been represented by some to"

Nigelj, I have changed your "their authors may have threatened to attempt undermine the peer-review process" back to the original "their authors may have attempted undermine the peer-review process". I actually toned down the original quote: "the suggestions [that] climate scientists may have actively conspired to undermine the peer-review process". That just seemed too over-the-top. But let's not get too vague, either. Madman (talk) 16:45, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The above copied here from my Talk page, as it was not really about me, but this article. --Nigelj (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that was me!  : ) I thought I should explain the reversion, but didn't think it was a big enough issue to discuss here.

I also just reversed this (diff here). The emails do indeed discuss "how to combat the arguments of climate change sceptics, unflattering comments about sceptics, queries from journalists, drafts of scientific papers." There's no reason to say that they "have been represented by some commentators and advocates as" discussing how to combat etc. Let's not get so careful that we start to scatter WP:Weasel words where they don't need to be. Madman (talk) 20:24, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Some of your statements above are non-contentious, others are contentious. I've tried to establish by editing the distinction between the two. The statements do not match what the journalists in the sources say, for instance, but they do in some instances match what some skeptics have told the journalists. --TS 20:31, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Precisely. As I pointed out in the edit summary when I added, "...threatened to...", if someone writes "even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is" to a colleague, there is no way that this can be characterised as an attempt to redefine what the peer-review literature is (unless you have some very powerful colleagues). At most this is a threat to try to redefine what the peer-review literature is. we have no evidence from that statement that he actually tried to redefine it, let alone whether he succeeded (actually, I think we know he didn't). These are not weasel words, they are accuracy words. Summarising that statement as an attempt is just wrong, even if a reporter did so. --Nigelj (talk) 21:29, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Wait a minute...what? How is pledging to keep "garbage" out of the IPCC "an attempt to undermine the peer-review process"? And how do any of the references (USA Today, Winnipeg Free Press or Bloomberg) support the idea that this was a "threat to undermine the peer review process"? I don't get it. Guettarda (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Nope, none of the sources say anything about "undermining the peer review process". Looked through them carefully, and they don't say what they're alleged to say. That's a big problem. Guettarda (talk) 21:56, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it is getting warped from the conditional speculation in this: http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/4338343.html?do=print Ignignot (talk) 00:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Another great article from Monbiot

The climate denial industry is out to dupe the public is full of links to case studies, books and websites that show what we're up against here. The first half of that article is about this e-mail incident, then we have links to four case studies (US coal companies targeting specific socio-economic groups with sound-byte denialist quips they can use, Patrick Michaels getting paid 'lavishly', the Heartland Institute with its list of 500, and the Bush presidency working with oil companies). There are also books about it all (The Heat is On, Boiling Point and Heat) and websites devoted to the subject (http://DeSmogBlog.com and http://exxonsecrets.org). --Nigelj (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

What we're up against on wikipedia is NPOV editing by people whose opinions have overcome their objectivity, not some crack team of exxonmobil spin doctors or outsourced meatpuppetry. For God's sake don't make it into more of an us vs. them than it has already become. Ignignot (talk) 20:18, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

As encyclopedists, we're all opposed to attempts to misinform the public. --TS 20:23, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. We're simply here to report back what reliable sources say about the subject without introducing bias. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:02, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

It is an interesting article, but does not provide much help in this story. The Four Deuces (talk) 20:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The NPOV issue is people frantically trying to exclude anything that suggests malfeasance on CRU's part, while trumping up the hack element of the story to detract from the issue people actually care about. Drolz09 (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There is no proof of any malfeasance on CRU's part, but there is plenty of proof of the hacking incident. So I'm afraid you have the neutrality issue backward. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

The issue is the CONTROVERSY. A person who came to this page to understand what Climategate meant could reasonably conclude from it that Climategate is a scandal revolving around computer security, which is ludicrous. Climategate is notable SOLELY because of what it does or does not reveal about the climatescience community. Drolz09 (talk) 21:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I have some sympathy with this point of view. There are two facets to the notability of the issue. In terms of newsworthiness, the issue of the scientific scandal is paramount though issues like who organised the hacking etc are very important. The criminal investigations etc are the other facet -- less prominently reported but more important in many ways in terms of the public record. Eds may conclude the emails don't undermine climate science and they may be correct, but the scandal is genuine as Monbiot very correctly points out.Dduff442 (talk) 23:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are actually wrong there, Drolz09. This is a hacking incident and some reaction to it. If you are here to try to bring down the whole of global warming science (or the whole of science, etc), that will be why you are having so much trouble. The science has not changed - glaciers are still melting and people are still pumping CO2 into the atmosphere. Luckily, world leaders are also still at Copenhagen trying to get agreement to do something about it, otherwise, as you were told above, billions of innocent people could die in the next 100 years or so. Try not to argue for the impossible. --Nigelj (talk) 21:35, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

<snark>Yeah, we're hobbled by our verifiability policy, our policy on biographies of living people and the fact that we are a mainstream encyclopaedia. It's a terrible burden.</snark> Guettarda (talk) 21:37, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. Nigelj has summed it up far more eloquently than I ever could. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I see, you can verify that "billions" of people are likely to die in the next century, but not that there is controversy over the content of the emails. Makes perfect sense. Drolz09 (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

We can say with absolute accuracy that billions of people are certain to die in the next century, just as billions of people have died in the last century... -- ChrisO (talk) 21:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

You don't think this immortality thing is going to pan out? Silly scientists and their incompetence at making such basic breakthroughs :-( Nil Einne (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Had a similar thought, but then realised it probably wouldn't help. See [83]. Guettarda (talk) 22:26, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors: immune to context. Drolz09 (talk) 00:04, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

URL to e-mails

Could any of you give me URL of the site where those e-mails were posted?74.14.181.174 (talk) 22:13, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Not on-wiki, due to copyright concerns. But if you google e.g. "CRU FOI2009.zip -torrent", you should find any number of sites that claim to have the archive (if you have Bittorrent, leave off the "-torrent"). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:33, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

• Whilst Wikipidia can't link to the emails themselves, some newspapers are linking to the "east anglia emails" website, which has a copy of the emails in searchable HTML format - e.g. The Times [84], The Guardian [85], Science [86], Financial Times [87]. Could a section that mentions that (not the "east anglia emails" website name, but that they are being linked to) be added i.e. - essentially linking to a few of those major news site's web pages that themselves link directly to a copy of the emails? Brumski (talk) 00:11, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy doesn't allow support linking to the actual files, but a simple google search should do. They aren't difficult to find anymore. Also consider checking wikileaks, they ussually have this kind of stuff.Smallman12q (talk) 01:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Leaked E-mails Still At Center Of Climate Change Debate

Here's an article that we can potentially use as a source: Leaked E-mails Still At Center Of Climate Change Debate. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Weart interview (cont.)

That quote by Weart from The Washington Post looks like innacurate hyperbole. In saying that the hacking incident is "a symptom of something entirely new in the history of science" Weart forgets about the existence of Lysenkoism.Chelydramat (talk) 00:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Renaming the article

The article's name seems misguided as more than emails were hacked...there are thousands of pages of source code and other documents "hacked." There is also controversy surrounding whether they were hacked or leaked. Perhaps the article should be renamed Climatic Research Unit incident ...the name seems far more neutral without adding extra emphasis on the e-mails.Smallman12q (talk) 01:09, 9 December 2009 (UTC)