Talk:Pizzagate conspiracy theory

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Comet Ping Pong's (Schrodinger's?) Basement

Borrowing from the main Comet Ping Pong Talk page, there is an apparent contradiction regarding the resturant's basement.

This Metro Weekly interview from 2015 where Alefantis claims Comet Ping Pong has a basement, used for storing canned vegetables and sauces:

Like our sauce — we harvest a whole crop of organic tomatoes — 10 tons of tomatoes every year. Can them all, store them in the basement, have like a harvest party when it gets loaded in.

And this one from the BBC from late 2016, where he emphatically denies having a basement:

"They ignore basic truths," Alefantis tells BBC Trending. For instance, the conspiracy supposedly is run out of the restaurant's basement. "We don't even have a basement."

The Metro interview as also mentioned in an recent article by Inquisitr. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 15:52, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Violates WP:SYNTH without a WP:SECONDARY source analysis that meets WP:Identifying reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 04:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Which source does one use in ascertaining whether or not the property has a basement? Solntsa90 (talk) 19:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Probably one that actually does investigative journalism. ^Falling_Gravity 23:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

"debunked"

Came here from AIV, with no prior involvement with the page. Just want to say that even though this is a conspiracy theory, the wording is a little over the top. "Conspiracy theory" already implies no basis in reality. Using language that sounds like "completely disproved and debunked conspiracy theory with no basis in reality that's been disproved and debunked" is actually counterproductive, because it stops sounding like a neutral presentation. Vanamonde (talk) 04:15, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Same exact line of reasoning already been discussed to death at Talk:Comet Ping Pong. Sagecandor (talk) 04:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Vanamonde--this was one of the issues that led me to support deletion at the MfD. The polemicism has been toned down a little since then, but the article now gives more of an illusion of completeness than before (and it's still way too polemical). 50.0.136.56 (talk) 08:35, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

[1] was a good edit that shouldn't have been reverted. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 08:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

"reveal that" implies that it's true, and so far only alt-right "sources" and fake news sites support that claim. Ian.thomson (talk) 09:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh good catch, "revealed" should be kept as "claimed". Other than that, the reverted edit had calmer wording, and calmer is a good thing. Frankly the intensity of denials in the current version makes the theory sound more credible rather than less. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I have made the neutral change, changing "revealed" to "alleged". Yoshiman6464 (talk) 14:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if this is the correct section to make this suggestion vs creating a new section but I wanted to add my two cents. The wording in the article "and has been promoted by "alt-right activists" such as Mike Cernovich and Brittany Pettibone" should be revised. Labeling either of those two as "alt-right activists" could be libelous. From what I know about Cernovich who is an attorney and author, he would not approve of that label. Maybe the term "independent journalists" or another term that is more neutral would be more appropriate. Again just my two centsCllgbksr (talk) 12:38, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Cernovich isn't actually an attorney btw or has presented no evidence to that effect. He's also self identified as Alt-right before Battleofalma (talk) 15:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not going to take the time to research whether Cernovich has a JD or not. He's mentioned he's an attorney. If you can find a credible source quoting Cernovich saying he is alt-right I'd love to see it. Someone saying he's alt right isn't going to cut it. The alt-right label Cernovich has been pinned with is being discussed in the talk page of his main article.Cllgbksr (talk) 15:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This is the most biased article I have ever seen. "(Conspiracy Theory)", "which falsely claims", and that's what I found in the first 5 seconds of reading it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.4.242.53 (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

On the contrary, I find no issues with this article's balance. If you feel that it is incorrect in any way, please add references to Reliable sources that offer Significant coverage and nobody on Wikipedia will have any reason to remove it. Exemplo347 (talk) 15:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The Daily Dot had recently reported the problem with mainstream news sources referring to the incident as "fake news", arguing that people who actually believe in this theory would more likely believe in it. Instead the report referred this conspiracy as an "illogical speculation that got a bunch of people lathered up." Yoshiman6464 (talk) 16:16, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

That's how I see it too. The issue is that people don't fact-check things they see on the internet - luckily Wikipedia editors are required to provide evidence in the form of reliable sources which is why, unlike the rest of the internet, conspiracy theories are usually labelled as such pretty quickly here. Exemplo347 (talk) 16:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• Crazy idea: How about experienced users stop reverting each other over a minor wording preference and figure it out on talk first? There's enough outright vandalism without this unnecessary back and forth. TimothyJosephWood 16:21, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Conspiracy peddlers continue pushing debunked 'pizzagate' tale

• Alam, Hannah (5 December 2016), "Conspiracy peddlers continue pushing debunked 'pizzagate' tale", Miami Herald, retrieved 7 December 2016, One might think that police calling the motive a 'fictitious conspiracy theory' would put an end to the claim that inspired a gunman from North Carolina to attack a family pizzeria in Washington over the weekend.

We now have an actual police statement, and reporting by secondary sources, using this wording. Note the word "fictitious" in front of the phrase "conspiracy theory" in its first appearance in the article by the Miami Herald.

We should take our cue from these secondary sources and use similar wording to the Miami Herald and to the police. Sagecandor (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

As you've already seen, Sagecandor, I've added a citation to the word "debunked" - fingers crossed, that might settle down the silly argument over semantics that keeps taking place here. Exemplo347 (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, Exemplo347, will try to bring the citations for that particular part to a total of maybe three. And also add citations to the introduction section as it now appears to satisfy the "contentious" part of WP:CITELEAD due to incoming Internet trolls. Sagecandor (talk) 16:39, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

2nd cite, 2nd quote for "debunked":

• William Douglas and Mark Washburn (December 6, 2016), "Religious zeal drives N.C. man in 'Pizzagate'", The Courier-Tribune, The Charlotte Observer, retrieved December 7, 2016, Though debunked by sources as diverse as The New York Times, Fox News Channel and the web hoax investigator Snopes, more than a million messages have traversed Twitter since November about #Pizzagate.

Sagecandor (talk) 16:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

3rd cite, 3rd quote for "debunked":

• Ruth, Daniel (December 6, 2016), "The lunacy of fake news", The Seattle Times, retrieved December 7, 2016, the dangerous and damaging fake allegations against a businessman and his employees simply trying to make a living have been repeatedly debunked, disproved and dismissed.

Sagecandor (talk) 16:48, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Personal opinion and original research do not constitute reliable sources. TimothyJosephWood 18:33, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

None of these sources provide any factual evidence that the conspiracy is 'debunked'. Theyre just claiming its debunked, with no actual proof or evidence. Better source needed. --Bitsnake420 (talk) 17:42, 7 December 2016 (UTC) We just go by what are reliable sources. These are reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 17:47, 7 December 2016 (UTC) No. No, they are not. Perhaps you need to read this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability --Bitsnake420 (talk) 18:04, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Yes, they are, and simply saying otherwise means nothing. TimothyJosephWood 18:08, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Yes. It is verifiable that a wide array of reliable sources have stated that the claims are false. To my knowledge, no reputable reliable source has stated that they are true. Therefore, among reliable sources, it is uncontested and uncontroversial that they are false, and the NPOV policy directs that Wikipedia must accept the factual conclusion of these reliable sources. Unless you can present reliable sources which state otherwise, we are done here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Those sources have no evidence or proof to support their claims. They are unreliable. You're telling me if the daily dot says that the world is going to end in 10 minutes, that's a reliable source that the world is going to end in 10 minutes. You're ridiculous. We are indeed done here. --Bitsnake420 (talk) 18:27, 7 December 2016 (UTC) This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the verifiability policy. You might want to read through Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. clpo13(talk) 18:34, 7 December 2016 (UTC) Bitsnake420 (talk · contribs) blocked indefinitely. Sagecandor (talk) 19:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Request to add text to intro

It was determined to be false by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia who called it a "fictitious conspiracy theory". The conspiracy theory was investigated and discredited as fake by fact-checking website Snopes.com, The New York Times, and Fox News.

References

---

Please add above text as a 2nd paragraph for the intro.

Thank you ! Sagecandor (talk) 19:22, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

 Done ...mostly. I modified it some, primarily to shorten it while conveying basically the same information. TimothyJosephWood 19:29, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks great thanks ! Sagecandor (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Note: anyone is free to disagree, so long as the argument is grounded in reliable sources, and not in original research and personal opinion, as in the collapsed section above. TimothyJosephWood 19:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Since when is Buzzfeed considered a credible source?

I've been a Wikipedia for years now, and I've never, EVER seen Buzzfeed listed as an acceptable source. So why is Buzzfeed, a content-rehosting blog, being given so much credibility here?

Solntsa90 (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Buzzfeed is cited once, and is accompanied by a PolitiFact citation which also credits BF with identifying the source of the claim. TimothyJosephWood 19:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Buzzfeed is the leading sentence, and is credited with 'debunking' the story--That alone leaves me suspect, as Buzzfeed is not a credible source for anything, even if Politifact re-hashes what they say (and Politifact is not entirely credible either). Solntsa90 (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a better one? TimothyJosephWood 19:58, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This comes up so often that I suspect people aren't paying attention: [2]. Buzzfeed is not just a "content-rehosting blog" these days: [3], [4]. clpo13_(talk) 20:07, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

In general Buzzfeed easily meets the criteria of our reliable sources guideline. It has a high reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, an established editorial team, and is regularly cited by other highly reliable media. In fact just this morning I read multiple articles at the Columbia Journalism Review (just about the most reliable outlet there is) citing Buzzfeed on stories about fake news. Buzzfeed is regularly cited across Wikipedia and has withstood many challenges at WP:RSN. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:25, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Participation also appreciated at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fake_news_website#BuzzFeed_News Sagecandor (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Fair warning, it's a bit WP:CANVASSy to post that in a thread where nearly everyone has already agreed with a conclusion you are forwarding elsewhere. TimothyJosephWood 20:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

One link, to one location, about exact same discussion. Sagecandor (talk) 20:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, I saw the comment by Clpo13, and I read from Clpo13: "This comes up so often that I suspect people aren't paying attention" -- and so from Clpo13 I concluded this was a settled matter and not really up for repeated perpetual debate any longer. Sagecandor (talk) 21:25, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

In general Buzzfeed easily meets the criteria of our reliable sources guideline. It has a high reputation for accuracy and fact-checking, an established editorial team,

Is this a joke? Let me know, so I can respond accordingly. Solntsa90 (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

It's like you're not even reading the links given. clpo13_(talk) 20:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Because they're not. TimothyJosephWood 20:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It doesn't matter what source is used, I doubt you'll be satisfied since according to you the "jury is still out" about the conspiracy theory. If The New York Times isn't good enough for you nothing will be. There's no point in others having a serious dialogue. APK whisper in my ear 20:47, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Why don't you stop pretending like Wikipedia is free and democratic and just jump right away to "semi-protecting" this talk page like you guys usually do. 217.91.160.59 (talk) 12:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Omg. cOrneLlrOckEy (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Buzzfeed is most definitely NOT a reliable source. In fact, most of what is in that article was simply made up the the editor. Pizzagate actually was started by people who were reading Podesta's emails on Wikileaks, and the Buzzfeed article doesn't even mention that. All the Buzzfeed nonsense is unreliable, unverifiable, and needs to be immediately deleted. Ag97 (talk) 14:13, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Evidence please? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

"Why don't you stop pretending like Wikipedia is free and democratic". It is free and participation is voluntary. Nobody said that it is democratic. Quite the opposite. Per the policy statement: Wikipedia is not a democracy: "Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy or any other political system. Its primary (though not exclusive) means of decision making and conflict resolution is editing and discussion leading to consensus—not voting (voting is used for certain matters such as electing the Arbitration Committee). Straw polls are sometimes used to test for consensus, but polls or surveys can impede, rather than foster, discussion and should be used with caution." Dimadick (talk) 15:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• Solntsa90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked for three months for failing to adhere to community standards. [5]. Sagecandor (talk) 21:51, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

AR-15 Assault Rifle

This story lists one of the weapons as a "Colt AR-15 type Assault rifle." While this has been misreported in the media, the AR-15 is not an assault rifle. Assault rifles are selective fire weapons, which the AR-15 is not.

The weapon in question was apparently a true AR-15 as listed in an "incident report." It should probably be listed as "AR-15 rifle." "Semi-automatic AR-15" would be also technically correct, but unnecessary, since all AR-15's are semi-auto.

Note: there WERE a small number of select military AR-15 rifles produced, but the modern AR-15 is not select fire, and I believe the select fire models were only sold to the military and not resold to the public. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Archangle0 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

This all depends on whether it was a Colt AR-15, an Armalite AR-15 (which is definitely an assault rifle) or one of the many AR-15 variants - once again, we risk getting bogged down in pointless semantics here. Why not wait until you find a reliable source (presumably after any trial - I can't see how it's more than just a guess until then) that specifies exactly which rifle it was? Let's leave it there until you find one. After all, it's not exactly a story-changing detail.Exemplo347 (talk) 21:05, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

References

The source is already provided. It's a Colt AR-15. Calling it an "assault" rifle is sensationalism.Archangle0 (talk) 05:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Other sources, including the screenshot of the police report shown in The New York Times, refer to it simply as an AR-15. I see no reason to change this at the present time.Exemplo347 (talk) 10:49, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Suspect Name

Reminder: the individual arrested for the shooting is not WP:WELLKNOWN and is covered under WP:BLPCRIME unless convicted. TimothyJosephWood 20:59, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

The Washington Post has significantly more info that could be used in the article. The arrested individual does actually have a conviction: "has one conviction, for driving while impaired in 2013 in Salisbury. He has been arrested several times in North Carolina, once on a drug charge, in 2007". Sagecandor (talk) 21:23, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes he does, but none of those prior convictions make him WP:WELLKNOWN for the purposes of Wikipedia. I have already added some of this information into the article though. TimothyJosephWood 21:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay that makes sense, thank you. Sagecandor (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood:Suspect has chosen to use his real name in a public interview with The New York Times to explain his action: "The Comet Ping Pong Gunman Answer's Our Reporter's Questions", also The Daily Beast reported on this development at "Pizzagate Gunman: 'I Regret How I Handled the Situation'". Sagecandor (talk) 23:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

WP has an obligation to be restrictive on this issue across the board as a matter of policy, partially because it helps uphold our fundamental principles, but also because it opens the Wikimedia Foundation to legal action if not adhered to. WP is WP:NOTNEWS, and although we want articles to be as accurate as possible, we take the long view, and it is perfectly acceptable to wait on a relatively minor detail, as far as an encyclopedic understanding is concerned, and see what comes of it.

All the average reader would gain from this is a name, which means nothing more than "a man" in any meaningful sense, because the person is not previously known to the public. We have an obligation to be conservative (in the literal, not political sense) in cases like these. TimothyJosephWood 23:49, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood:Sure that all makes sense. However, those sources could be good to update the article, could paraphrase or quote the individual's intentions, without naming his name in the article. Sagecandor (talk) 23:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I will try to look more into them tomorrow. TimothyJosephWood 00:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Comment BLPCRIME merely emphasises the need to be judicious. The suspect's name has been reported by multiple sources and has granted an interview, under their own name. The latter is a public action, and we should have no problem with using their name. That man from Nantucket (talk) 12:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This comment also makes sense. Sagecandor (talk) 23:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood:Secondary sources now reporting themselves on The New York Times interview include ABC News [6] The McClatchy Company newspapers [7] Global News in Canada [8] and TIME [9]. Sagecandor (talk) 23:55, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Torture threats to New York restaurant

• Rosenberg, Eli (December 7, 2016), "Brooklyn Restaurant Threatened Over Fake News 'Pizzagate' Conspiracy", The New York Times, retrieved December 7, 2016

Could be added to this article. Sagecandor (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that's relevant, I'll add it in now. Exemplo347 (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

It's been added to the article at the end of the "Debunked" section (it seemed like the best place for the info to go, to fit with the flow of the article) Exemplo347 (talk) 22:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe under "Comet Ping Pong shooting" somehow and make it a section about violence and also now threats of torture ? Sagecandor (talk) 22:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the best thing to do is to create a section for reports of threats and harassment, and then combine that with the first paragraph of the "Comet Ping Pong shooting" section. I've read other accounts of harassment (mostly about Comet Ping Pong's neigbors). ^Falling_Gravity 22:55, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

"Threats and harassment" yeah that sounds like a good section name. Sagecandor (talk) 23:02, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

TIME and New York Daily News have more info. Sagecandor (talk) 23:37, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

White supremacist

The article has this referenced claim, but it is not explained in the article how this conspiracy theory is related to racial minorities. Can this be improved? --Pudeo (talk) 00:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That particular info in the article is backed up to two citations to sources [10] and [11]. Sagecandor (talk) 00:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I´m pretty new to wikipedia editing, but I would have never thought that a buzzfeed article and another article only referencing the buzzfeed article are considered appropriate evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:C3:33CC:B057:88CD:3E75:82D:23A0 (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't see why we should have a lead sentence which singles out a particular Twitter user, essentially giving that user bragging rights for starting the Pizzagate "investigation". I think it's better to just say "started on Twitter" or "started on alt-right Twitter". More detail is fine in the "Origins" section. ^Falling_Gravity 19:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Sagecandor, the issue is not that the statement is unsourced. It is simply given without context, leaving its significance unclear. Dimadick (talk) 16:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Michael G. Flynn dismissal section

This section needs expanding (see Michael G. Flynn#Presidential transition of Donald Trump for comparison). In particular, I think the fact that Flynn had previously promoted the PizzaGate conspiracy and that his father published similar rumors on social media (spirit cooking, Wiener fake news) should be mentioned in the article. All of this is mentioned at the Michael G. Flynn page and is relevant here. HelgaStick (talk) 00:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

It also might be good to add "Jr." after Michael G. Flynn's name. Many people might be confused regarding which Michael Flynn was dismissed from the Trump team. The Armchair General (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Suggested move

Suggest moving this over Pizzagate and including a hat note pointing to Battle of the Buffet#Pizzagate, since this seems to currently be fairly clearly the WP:PRIMARYUSAGE, and more so, is a stand alone article, and not a section in an article, the main title of which, readers seem more likely to search for. TimothyJosephWood 01:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support as proposer. TimothyJosephWood 01:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support as per the arguments above. HelgaStick (talk) 01:58, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but would support dropping the brackets to make it "Pizzagate conspiracy theory." This would be a clear identification of the subject which also makes it clear that it's a conspiracy theory. This is the standard approach, see John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories, September 11 attacks advance-knowledge conspiracy theories, and Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories. Just calling it Pizzagate is not acceptable as it suggests an actual "-gate" type scandal where none exists. Fyddlestix (talk) 02:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Those examples are theories about events. This is a theory surrounding a place. You could have it be "Comet Ping Pong conspiracy theory" but no one calls it that. "Pizzagate" is the common name whether it's true scandal or not. And doesn't putting "conspiracy theory" in the title (without the unnecessary disambiguation brackets) sound like a little too much? (Pizzagate conspiracy theory is a debunked conspiracy theory started by a Twitter user described as a white supremacist and...[12]) Emily Goldstein (talk) 04:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but would support dropping the brackets to make it Pizzagate conspiracy theory per Fyddlestix. Neutrality^talk 02:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but would support dropping the brackets to make it Pizzagate conspiracy theory per Fyddlestix. Sagecandor (talk) 02:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose a move to "Pizzagate" but also support dropping the brackets. Other example: Moon landing conspiracy theories. --McSly (talk) 02:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Seems a lot like a disambiguation where none is needed, given that Pizzagate seems to be the overwhelming WP:COMMONNAME. In comparison, there is a legitimate moon landing a legitimate 9/11, but no legitimate Pizzagate. TimothyJosephWood 02:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Other version of Pizzagate has plenty of its own sources for same word Pizzagate: (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL). Sagecandor (talk) 02:43, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And if you replace "Campbell Rooney" with "Reddit" you jump from 5k news hits to about a million. TimothyJosephWood 02:47, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And if you look at Google Books you find that one hundred percent of results in book searches are all for the Battle_of_the_Buffet#Pizzagate. Sagecandor (talk) 02:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Because there's not been time in the past month to publish a book on the topic? TimothyJosephWood 17:00, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

And if you look at any social media, forum, or news site one hundred percent of what you'll find about "Pizzagate" is about the 2016 one. The current "Pizzagate" has only been in the news for about a month so there's not any books about it yet, that is an impossible standard to use in this case. Emily Goldstein (talk) 03:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)As the Southern Bard once said, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." Sagecandor provides links to prove his claims. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Counting search results isn't really an argument. This NYT article contains the words "Pizzagate" (and thus shows up in the search) but actually calls this phenomenon "the so-called Pizzagate conspiracy theory". Google also returns things that aren't even remotely RS for that query. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Your "reliable source" is now calling it "the so-called Pizzagate hoax" (old and current). What now? Emily Goldstein (talk) 09:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support "Pizzagate" got 12 views in October 2016[13], 21,729 in November[14], and 71,942 from 1 December to 6 December[15]. There is only one "Pizzagate" article the other is a section of an article. There is no need for a disambiguation page. I'm sorry for the 0.5 people everyday who will have to make one extra click. Emily Goldstein (talk) 03:18, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We don't make these decisions based on pageviews. Fyddlestix (talk) 03:40, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose moving this to Pizzagate. I would support putting a hat note in this article and having Pizzagate redirect here, as well as removing the parentheses. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Good number of sources call it Pizzagate conspiracy theory so that is a good title target for the page instead, just without the brackets. (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL). Sagecandor (talk) 04:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support As per argument raised by Timothyjosephwood --Donenne (talk) 04:39, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support only a move to Pizzagate conspiracy theory - As per other articles on conspiracy theories. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support only the name change to remove the parentheses - The words "conspiracy theory" are a vital part of this article's title. Exemplo347 (talk) 10:26, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Here is the breakdown of the current sources used in the article:

1. Miami Herald: Pizzagate tale, Pizzagate debacle
2. Courier-Tribune: Pizzagate, Pizzagate conspiracy
3. Seattle Times]: Pizzagate perverted propaganda, Pizzagate, phony Pizzagate claims
4. Snopes: Pizzagate, Pizzagate conspiracy theory, Pizzagate theories, Pizzagate/Comet Ping Pong social media investigation, “Pizzagate” rumors, Pizzagate controversy
5. Buzzfeed: Pizzagate, Pizzagate claims, “Pizzagate” Conspiracy Theory (in ad for another article)
6. Politifact:Pizzagate
7. Politifact: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
8. BBC: saga of Pizzagate, term "pizzagate", Pizzagate
9. NYT: Pizzagate, Pizzagate theory
10. WaPo: Pizzagate, “Pizzagate” conspiracy board (referring to the subreddit), Pizzagate conspiracy
11. Salon: Pizzagate
12. CNN: Pizzagate
13. NYT:‘Pizzagate’ Hoax
14. Bloomberg: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
15. NPR: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
16. Washington City Paper: Pizzagate
17. MPDC: No mention of "Pizzagate" at all
18. ABC: Pizzagate, Pizzagate scandal
19. Politico: "#pizzagate" conspiracy, #pizzagate
20. Business Insider: Pizzagate story, Pizzagate conspiracy, #Pizzagate
21. NYT: Pizzagate, #pizzagate
22. ABC: "Pizzagate" conspiracy theory, #Pizzagate, Pizzagate
23. NYT: ‘Pizzagate’ Hoax
24. Daily Dot: Pizzagate Conspiracy, Pizzagate, #pizzagate

Somehow I lost three sources, (one was duplicated and I need to go back and find it). If someone can point them out I'll add them.

But overall, while some sources mention a Pizzagate theory, or Pizzagate conspiracy, only three mention "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" verbatim. 16 sources use Pizzagate as a stand alone term, only 3 who mention Pizzagate fail to mention it as a stand alone term, and five sources mention it only as a standalone term and never mention it with any qualifiers.

So Pizzagate is the a clear common thread in these sources by number of mentions, and "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" wins only slightly over "Pizzagate hoax" with three and two mentions respectively.

Finally per WP:DAB: Disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead. (emphasis mine). In this case there is no other existing article, but only a section, and therefore no reason to add qualifiers to the title. Furthermore, if we are to treat the section as an article for these purposes, the guideline continues: If there are only two topics to which a given title might refer, and one is the primary topic, then a disambiguation page is not needed—it is sufficient to use a hatnote on the primary topic article, pointing to the other article. TimothyJosephWood 13:44, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that this list of sources supports "Pizzagate" over "Pizzagate conspiracy theory," as a great many of them - like most RS that have addressed this - clearly identify Pizzagate as a conspiracy theory. For example: the first sentence of your Miami Herald article notes that Police have called it "a 'fictitious conspiracy theory.'" This article (also from the Miami Herald) defines Pizzagate (again, in the first sentence) as a "a fake-news conspiracy." Same thing with your second source - the very first sentence of the article defines Pizzagate as " a fantastical conspiracy theory." Ditto for source number three, which clearly labels Pizzagate as an "elaborate conspiracy theory." The same appears to be true for the majority of the sources you linked: The BBC link (#8) also clearly labels Pizzagate as a conspiracy theory. So does the Washington Post source (#10). This list seems like evidence that "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" is by far the most accurate and NPOV option for the article's title. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Because there is a difference between naming a thing and describing a thing. I am listing instances where they referred to it as a name. From the Miami Herald, A popular New York restaurant has become the latest victim of a fake-news conspiracy about Hillary Clinton running a child sex ring out of a Washington, D.C., pizza joint. This is an extended descriptor, not a name. It is as supportive of "Pizzagate (conspiracy theory)" as it is of "Pizzagate (Hillary Clinton child sex ring conspiracy theory)".

I'm not arguing that it isn't in fact a conspiracy theory. I'm arguing that the common name is "Pizzagate" as opposed to "Pizzagate hoax," "Pizzagate conspiracy," "Fantastical Pizzagate conspiracy theory" or any of the other thousand ways descriptors can be attached unnecessarily. They are only unnecessary because disambiguation is only necessary to resolve ambiguity, of which, in this case, there is very little. TimothyJosephWood 16:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support move to "Pizzagate" as this topic has clear primary usage of the title. Lasersharp (talk)
• Oppose: Although news sources have referred to the incident as "Pizzagate", virtually all of them have described Pizzagate as a conspiracy theory. Unless there is proof that the conspiracy has some basis in reality (which doesn't), Pizzagate will always be regarded as a conspiracy theory. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 17:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I...really don't understand why this is so difficult to understand. No one questions that Michael Jordan was a basketball player, but Michael Jordan (basketball player) isn't an article. TimothyJosephWood 18:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support the move, as this article is now clearly the primary topic of this term. Rreagan007 (talk) 21:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to "Pizzagate conspiracy theory" to keep in line with other conspiracy articles. ^Falling_Gravity 23:48, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support This article is the primary topic Ag97 (talk) 14:04, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support per proposer. Prefer "Pizzagate", as it is shorter than "Pizzagate conspiracy theory", and there isn't another Pizzagate to confuse it with, but the parentheses should definitely go. --GRuban (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. It should remain crystal clear that this is a conspiracy theory, and having something in the title is the best way to do this. See Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, which could have been titled Barack Obama's citizenship, but wasn't. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. We would be doing the best by our readers to convey in as many ways as possible that this is definitely a conspiracy theory. I'd invoke IAR to override COMMONNAME here. A move to Pizzagate conspiracy theory would be acceptable. gobonobo ^{+ c} 08:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Renaming Section "Debunked" to "Responses"

Although the media had debunked the conspiracy theories, I do not believe that the word should be a title of this section. The title "Responses" would be more accurate because the media had responded to the incident, debunking it. Also, I believe that the owner's response to the incident should also be included in that section, such as his interview with NPR on November 27, 2016 where he referred to the conspiracy theory as "an insanely complicated, made-up, fictional lie-based story" and a "coordinated political attack" Yoshiman6464 (talk) 03:13, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose. Could however have a separate section for "Responses". Also debunked by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia. Important to note it was debunked. That it was effectively debunked is a fact. This is not in dispute. Sagecandor (talk) 03:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support, as this would widen the scope of the section. This could also include responses to the shooting incident, including Flynn Jr.'s firing. ^Falling_Gravity 04:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@FallingGravity:How about one section "Debunked" and another one "Responses" ? Sagecandor (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

In my opinion, "Debunked" is very informal for a section title. "Responses" has precedent in Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories#Responses. ^Falling_Gravity 04:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I was about to post the same thing too. In the "Sandy Hook" article, there is a "Response" section with both Snopes debunking and responses by Sandy Hook victims. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 04:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Alright, as long as it continues to say debunked prominently in the introduction. Sagecandor (talk) 04:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support As per argument raised by FallingGravity. --Donenne (talk) 04:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Use both - I'm OK with adding "responses," but since most of the responses are debunkings, we should be clear about that. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. The fact that the conspiracy had been debunked was mentioned in both the Lead Paragrah and the "Response" section. Debunking is a type of Response, not a separate meaning. To debunk something is to "expose the falseness or hollowness of (a myth, idea, or belief)" - a response to that false myth. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 05:43, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Then I would ask that you self-revert your change back to the original consensus; this discussion has been open less than three hours. Being clear about the falsity of this is important, and the most important thing about the entire conspiracy theory is that it has been definitively declared false and debunked. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:52, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose - "debunking" is more accurate than "response".Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:59, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Support - the "debunking" is just one of the responses to the theory Ag97 (talk) 13:58, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Responses" would suggest that this is a legitimate dispute, which it isn't. See WP:FRINGE. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Texas police investigating threats to pizzeria in Austin

• Betts, Kris (December 7, 2016), "APD investigating threats to local pizza business after fake news story", KVUE, retrieved December 8, 2016
• Odam, Matthew (December 7, 2016), "How Austin's East Side Pies became target of fake #pizzagate", Austin American-Statesman, retrieved December 8, 2016

Suggested sources to add to update article.

New development. So now real world impact with violence and threats of violence in Washington, D.C., New York, and now Texas. Sagecandor (talk) 07:04, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

How is this related? Pizza does not a PizzaGate make.That man from Nantucket (talk) 07:31, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Have you bothered to click on the links above and read the 2 articles? Sagecandor (talk) 07:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, though these are copycats, they are apparently unrelated to the first outside of the hashtag. Or are we writing about a meme now?--That man from Nantucket (talk) 08:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Copycats of what? These are all actual violence and threats of violence investigated by multiple police departments and reported by reliable sources. Sagecandor (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This is why I think we should have a section on harassment reports, much like Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting conspiracy theories#Harassment by conspiracy theorists. ^Falling_Gravity 08:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Very much agree with this.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree with FallingGravity and Volunteer Marek here. Sagecandor (talk) 17:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Debunked conspiracy theory

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've always found the language that "X is a false/debunked conspiracy theory" to be a bit overwrought, and most often seen on Wikipedia. Are there any conspiracy theories that are true? Debunked is better than "false" I supoose; the latter sounds like a double negative. Consider

Pizzagate is a conspiracy started in Sept. 2016 that tied a number of pizzerias and members of the Democratic Party to a child-sex ring. The theory has been soundly debunked by news media (strongest source fist) and law enforcement (list) says the theory is without merit. The theory occured amongst the backdrop of the US election.

.We are currently missing the "when" and are missing context. I'm proposing a shortened description, including when it started, followed immediately by a description of of thoroughly and by whom the theory was discredited. And then finally provide some context, which is sorely missing in the lead. The idea that this is bit related to the election is nonsense, but we don't see it.That man from Nantucket (talk) 08:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I disagree - Pizzagate has been reported as debunked in a wide range of reliable sources. It is important that Wikipedia articles do not give undue weight to points of view that are not supported by a single reliable source. In this case, an unequivocal statement that this conspiracy theory has been debunked, supported by reliable sources, is the only way to go. The alternative would be to give the impression that this might actually have some basis in fact (without any evidence to support that possibility). Exemplo347 (talk) 10:06, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

"Pizzagate is a conspiracy" doesn´t work, does it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Pizzagate appears to be the ONLY conspiracy theory on Wikipedia that is being described as "debunked" or "false". Funny, isn't it? I guess we give other conspiracy theories, such as the one regarding reptilians the benefit of a doubt. 217.91.160.59 (talk) 13:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That is not true. There are many conspiracy theories that are properly described in our articles as disproved or without evidentiary support. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

What are some of your examples? The "Moon landing conspiracy theories" article mentions how the conspiracy had been debunked, but the word "debunked" doesn't appear in the lead paragraph nor has an entire section dedicated to debunking the conspiracy theory. The word "false" isn't even mentioned in that page too. The "Jade Helm 15 conspiracy theories" article only mentioned the word "debunked" once by Snopes; the word "false" is not mentioned in that page too. The Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article mentioned that the theories were "falsely asserting that [Barack Obama] was not a natural-born citizen of the United States", and not a "debunked" conspiracy theory. In fact, the only time where the media's role in debunking the theory had been mentioned was in the "Release of the birth certificates" section, stating "These arguments have been debunked numerous times by media investigations", not in the Lead paragraph. Finally, the phrase "debunked conspiracy theory" only appeared in three wikipedia articles, with only one (this article) featuring the phrase in the lead paragraph. In conclusion, the IP user was only half-right, that this theory seems like it is pushing "false" and "debunked" far more than any other conspiracy article. However, the IP user is wrong asserting that Pizzagate is the "ONLY conspiracy theory" to be described by those terms. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 16:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

You will note that the common thread here is that conspiracy theories which make specific and actionable claims about living people, such as that Barack Obama was born in Kenya or that a pizza restaurant is a front for a child sex ring, are treated differently — that's because of the biographies of living persons policy. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:28, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This language does not match the WP:NPOV standards, and none of the sources given offer material proof against this because proof cannot simply be given. See Russell's teapot. For this reason I would motion that this should say "alleged", "unsubstantiated" or otherwise something to that effect. Another example of a silly conspiracy theory for which we have empirical evidence of its debunking is the chemtrails conspiracy, and that itself opens with the word "unproven". --Simtropolitan (talk) 17:23, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Of course it meets policy. You just refuse to read the policy. See WP:YESPOV, Avoid stating facts as opinions. Uncontested and uncontroversial factual assertions made by reliable sources should normally be directly stated in Wikipedia's voice. It is an uncontested and uncontroversial fact among reliable sources that these claims are false, fabricated and malicious lies. Until and unless you or anyone else presents reliable sources which claim otherwise, this is not up for debate. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We go by Reliable Sources, not what other articles say or do. This dangerous fraud has been debunked, by police, by fact-checkers, by media from the left and the right. Sagecandor (talk) 17:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh I'm reading it, avoid stating opinions as facts, again, this is the kind of issue for which no contestable evidence exists. It is an allegation which cites leaked but confirmed communications between officials. It is an interpretation, it may be false, however again none of the material cited by these reliable sources actually addresses the language therein. This seems very heavy handed compared to the language addressing much crazier allegations which have been documented on articles on Wikipedia.--Simtropolitan (talk) 17:32, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Unless you have reliable sources saying that this is not a debunked false conspiracy theory, I believe this conversation is over. TimothyJosephWood 17:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

That these claims are false, malicious lies is not an opinion, it is a factual statement made by dozens of reliable sources. Your personal agreement or disagreement with these reliable sources, or your personal belief or disbelief in what they are saying, is not at issue here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia based on reliable sources, and the reliable sources say this. Your problem is with the sources, and we can't solve that here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:37, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

What you are saying, is the definition of opinion and to address this as a personal agreement or disagreement goes outside the conduct of Wikipedia. This is not a matter of a personal belief, this is a matter of upholding Wikipedia's factual validity, which is to address why this conspiracy theory has even been put forward. I will leave it at that until further sources are addressed, but the language of this article as well as the discussion surrounding is very troubling in the scope of Wikipedia's purpose. --Simtropolitan (talk) 17:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The language of your own argument is troubling only in so far as it is vacuous, because it appears to consist only of your opinion of the sources provided by others, and no actual sources that back up what you are trying to say. The only meaningful definition of opinion, in this case, is making claims without sources, and since you have provided none, I will assume you have none. Now please stop wasting out time until you do. TimothyJosephWood 17:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid you have a fundamental misunderstanding of Wikipedia's mission, purpose and policies. When The New York Times publishes an article in its news section which makes a factual statement, Wikipedia does not treat that factual statement as an opinion. A reputable, fact-checked news source and anonymous Internet vigilantes are not given equal validity in Wikipedia's eye. We aren't an "alternative media" site and we aren't a place to spread debunked libelslander nonsense about innocent people. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:54, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

We explicitly state that, for example, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are forgeries. We really aren't interested in how many websites claim they're true, we go by the preponderance of reliable sources and explicitly state that they're a false canard. This is a malicious campaign of fabrications designed to cause harm to living individuals, is devoid of any basis in fact, and has been explicitly described as such by reliable sources, up to and including police agencies. If this was something that happened in the past we would have an opportunity to discuss the matter from the point of view of historical moral panics, but since it's ongoing with actual threats made against actual people, we have no room to tiptoe around the central point for readers who come here to understand what's going on. It's false, and Wikipedia has no business assisting the spread of malicious rumors by granting them credence by omission or false balance. This is an encyclopedia, we're not obligated to take fringe ideas seriously: rather the reverse. Just because the credulous or the promoters of hate can edit Wikipedia doesn't mean the encyclopedia has to take them seriously. Acroterion (talk) 17:53, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the issue here is who decides that they are the arbiter of truth? Is it simply by how much media influence you have, how much money you spend on advertising or your editorial team, etc.? Solntsa90 (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

As per the NPOV policy, All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. That Wikipedia's coverage of this issue accurately reflects the fact that reliable sources publishing on this topic are effectively unanimous in declaring this to be a series of malicious lies is a feature, not a bug. Again, your disagreement is with the reliable sources, not Wikipedia. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

• Close Wikipedia is not a forum for general discussion about the subject of the article, the larger philosophical questions regarding US media, or corrupting epistemology. TimothyJosephWood 18:11, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
• Comment Two things... First is that the OP, That man from Nantucket, started this thread with the absolute best, hands-down-no-contest argument for excluding qualifiers like "debunked" that I've ever read on WP. That being said, its fatal flaw is that it ignores the facts that conspiracy theories aren't necessarily false; just overwhelmingly so, and that "false" is not synonymous with "debunked".

Finally: there's nothing to discuss here. If one side is asking for sources, and the other side is ignoring that in favor of vague, rhetorical arguments that my seven-year-old could see through, then this has more potential to turn into the seed of an ANI case than to improve the article. I'm closing this discussion.MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:03, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggestion

We obviously have Pizzagate "truthers" commenting on this page. (I can provide diffs if necessary) I don't understand why the same arguments need to be rehashed and the same links provided that will be ignored since they're part of the "lamestream media". The reasons this libelous and ludicrous story is false have been provided. If the conspiracy theorists want to argue about it, I suggest they do it on another site; one that doesn't care about WP:BLP issues. I suggest closing discussions when people start repeating the same arguments. APK whisper in my ear 19:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. Sagecandor (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

While I have noticed some rather peculiar comments myself, I hope this does not translate to shutting down all discussions before they can even begin. Dimadick (talk) 17:00, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Can we fix the run on sentence in the lead?

Does it really add anything to the lead that we mention who started the conspiracy theory and how it spread in the lead? Perhaps, but this belongs AFTER we mention the concept of the theory.--That man from Nantucket (talk) 23:56, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Wow haha I agree that is a long run on sentence. Sagecandor (talk) 23:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Identity of the person who started "Pizzagate"

According to this article by Toronto Star, the person who had started the Pizzagate theory was a woman from Belleville, Ontario who was a contributor of the conspiracy site "Planet Free Will". Should I include this information in the article? Yoshiman6464 (talk) 00:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Umm...given the BLP implications, I would personally wait a little while and see if anyone else takes this seriously. TimothyJosephWood 00:50, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Also, the article doesn't say that that woman "started" the conspiracy theory, only helped spread it. ^Falling_Gravity 06:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, the article states that she shared the story from someone else. This is of questionable significance to the overall article and should not be included - I'm sure the information has been shared by countless people and we can't add every single one of their names to the article. Exemplo347 (talk) 09:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I think we're okay to write about this. The Toronto Star is a reliable source, and The Washington Post covered MacMillian's role too. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:14, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

So...this exists on commons

See here. I'm not posting directly on talk because I'm not entirely sure it wouldn't constitute a BLP violation. I think it may be useful for the article as an example of the things that are being spread around, but...again...I'm not sure we even have the option of using it. TimothyJosephWood 13:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

FYI, I posted on COM:AN about the pic. If they don't find it to be a problem maybe we can discuss whether its usable here. TimothyJosephWood 14:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Looks like it's already been deleted from Commons Exemplo347 (talk) 14:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Well that settles that then. TimothyJosephWood 14:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Nominated category for deletion, at commons:Commons:Categories for discussion/2016/12/Category:Pizzagate. Sagecandor (talk) 15:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Remove unsourced content

This sentence "Several sites noted that purported evidence cited by the conspiracy theory's proponents had been fabricated or taken from entirely different sources and photoshopped to appear as if they supported the conspiracy." appears to be original research and unverifiable. No reputable sources are given to back up the claims, so I propose the sentence should be deleted. Ag97 (talk) 14:02, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I agree that the "photoshopped" may need to be taken out. I looked through a half dozen or so of the sources and didn't see one that directly said "photoshopped". Plenty (e.g., Snopes) point out how the images were taken out of context from unrelated sites or profiles. TimothyJosephWood 14:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

100% with Tim, here. (Hope you don't mind me calling you that). MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 15:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Brittany Pettibone

The article briefly names a "Brittany Pettibone" and her role in the story. Who is she? We do not have other articles that mention her. A few online sources mention a "Brittany Pettibone" as co-author of a science fiction novel called "Hatred Day", but do not mention political activities. Dimadick (talk) 15:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton speaks out after attack

Days after the attack, Hillary Clinton spoke out on the dangers of fake news in a tribute speech to retiring Senator Harry Reid at the United States Capitol. Clinton called the spread of fraudulent news and fabricated propaganda an epidemic that flowed through social media. She said it posed a danger to citizens of the U.S. and to the country's political process. The week of her speech, legislation on The Pentagon policy which included a bipartisan measure to found a new division within the U.S. State Department to from an inter-agency effort to combat incoming propaganda originating from foreign nations. Clinton said in her speech she supported bills before the U.S. Congress to deal with fake news.

References

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Suggest some or any or all of this could be added to the article. Sagecandor (talk) 16:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Looking at the BBC article, it seems like it would be appropriate for Fake news website, but the content about Pizzagate is all context added by the BBC and not anything addressed by Clinton directly. TimothyJosephWood 17:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps, but both sources say she spoke about it shortly after the attack, and she said it was not what she had been planning to talk about in her speech that day. Sagecandor (talk) 17:36, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem is that combining the BBC article with another article to reach the conclusion that this specifically is what she was implying, is pretty much the definition of WP:SYNTHESIS. TimothyJosephWood 17:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, good point, no problem. Sagecandor (talk) 17:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Statistics

I've spent probably too much time trying to find a reliable source on social media trends in the hope of uploading a graph of popularity over time. Aaand...I've not really found anything. Anyone more social-media-savvy than me know of a good source? TimothyJosephWood 16:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Something like this [16] ? Sagecandor (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem with Google trends is it only gives data as a percentile of the highest popularity of the term. I was really looking for actual data (numbers of searches, uses, etc), specifically on the use of the hashtag, since its widely reported in the sources, but no one seems to give actual numbers. TimothyJosephWood 16:31, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah okay well we'll just have to keep looking. Sagecandor (talk) 16:42, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Edits by Ag97

Now at AE. Neutralitytalk 17:33, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am quite concerned by a number of recent edits by Ag97. This user has made a number of edits they describe as "minor" that are not at all minor. Here and here they significantly weaken the description of the hoax as false. Please do not describe significant changes as minor edits. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC) The edit you described is a well-justified edit. I considered it to be a minor change in wording, that more accurately describes what the articles describes. The article never uses the word "debunked," instead it uses the words "fake news" so how can you get mad at me for changing the words to match the article's wording? Ag97 (talk) 16:34, 9 December 2016 (UTC) The article never uses the word "debunked,"...This would be 100% true...if the article didn't use the word five times, and thrice in reference quotes. TimothyJosephWood 16:36, 9 December 2016 (UTC) What article are you talking about? Ag97 (talk) 16:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC) This one? TimothyJosephWood 16:44, 9 December 2016 (UTC) Ag97 has previously been blocked for a 3RR violation on this very article. I think it is time for AE on this. Neutralitytalk 16:26, 9 December 2016 (UTC) First of all, that was not for this very article, that's a lie. It was for the disambiguation page. Secondly, you were guilty of edit warring just as much as I was, so you should have been blocked too. Ag97 (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC) This is absolutely ridiculous. I stand behind all of my edits, and will defend every one of them. You have no right to ban me for making good faith edits. Ag97 (talk) 16:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC) Including this one, where you add a lengthy description of the issue to another article never mentioning that the claims are false, malicious lies - despite the fact that both sources you cite use the term "fake" in their headlines? It's time you understood that Wikipedia is not going to be a party to spreading this garbage. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:46, 9 December 2016 (UTC) Yes, I stand behind that edit one hundred percent. First of all, one sentence is not a "lengthy description." Second of all, I described the claims as "conspiracy theory." The words "conspiracy theory" mean that the allegations have not been proven, so there is no need to describe them as "fake, malicious lies." That is editorialized language, and Wikipedia must be neutral. The words "conspiracy theory" alone are enough. Third of all, Pizzagate is something that has received notable media attention. The creation of the theory was a significant consequence of the Podesta emails, so me adding a "lengthy description" of one short sentence to the article was completely justified. Are the New York Times and Washington Post, and all the other mainstream media outlets "spreading this garbage" by reporting on the story? Pizzagate meets all criteria for notability and does not censor. Ag97 (talk) 17:02, 9 December 2016 (UTC) If you want to discuss content, this is the place. If you want to discuss editors, go to ANI or AE, because this is not the place. TimothyJosephWood 16:58, 9 December 2016 (UTC) Done. Now at WP:AE. Sagecandor (talk) 17:21, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Citations in the intro

Strongly recommend keeping citations in the intro from this version [17].

Makes it much harder for drive-by-cite-tagging and vandalism removal of content. Sagecandor (talk) 16:45, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

This change looks spectacular, thank you ! Sagecandor (talk) 16:55, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Edits by NorthBySouthBaranof

Now at WP:AE. TimothyJosephWood 17:40, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am concerned by the number of recent edits by NorthBySouthBaranof. This user made a large amount of changes, without talk page consensus, that violate Wikipedia policy of neutrality. I, and many editors and readers of this article, disagree with these changes. This user is purposefully rewriting the article to remove neutral language and make it biased, reducing the overall quality of the article. In addition, he and his friend Neutrality have threatened to use their administrator rights to block me from Wikipedia in retaliation for voicing my opposition and concerns about their changes. It is very disturbing to see that these two administrators have teamed up to worsen the quality of an article and bully and threaten anyone who tries to stop them. Ag97 (talk) 16:49, 9 December 2016 (UTC) Well, you got that wrong too. I am not an administrator. I'm a longtime editor with a thorough understanding of the Biographies of Living Persons policy, reliable sourcing guidelines, the NPOV policy and others. I am merely interested here in ensuring that our coverage of this dangerous, libelous, malicious hoax provides accurate information based upon reliable sources, and does not serve to disseminate false claims about living people or dissimulate about their innocence in this matter. If you object to a particular edit, please provide a diff and we'll discuss it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 16:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC) This talk page section title and wording seems like WP:BATTLEGROUND violation in direct retaliation to [18]. Sagecandor (talk) 16:54, 9 December 2016 (UTC) If you want to discuss content, this is the place. If you want to discuss editors, go to ANI or AE, because this is not the place. TimothyJosephWood 16:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Allegations / Conspiracy theory claims

This article is missing any detailed information about the claims or allegations of this conspiracy theory. The other conspiracy theory articles on wikipedia focus on the conspiracy theory allegations rather than debunking them. This article does the opposite. In fact, it seems this article is only including information to disprove the conspiracy theory. That's fine, this is a crazy theory, but in the interest of being unbiased and created a complete article, we need to create a section with detailed allegations. I will gladly add the allegations if there is consensus to do so. Iksnyrk (talk) 19:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Strongly agree. The article is highly biased, and should be rewritten from a neutral point of view. Ag97 (talk) 20:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. To do so would violate WP:BLP and defame living people regarding baseless unsubstantiated fraud. Sagecandor (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

violate WP:BLP - Not necessarily. Have to remember, you can still say terrible awful things about someone on WP, it just has to be very well sourced. I'm not really seeing that much is needed to explain things other than pizza + sex ring. If there's a reliable source for this information, it can certainly be presented. Keeping in mind, that presenting content of a conspiracy theory as a fact that it is content of the theory is not the same as presenting the content of a conspiracy theory as fact. TimothyJosephWood 20:36, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. But also agree I'm not really seeing that much is needed to explain things other than pizza + sex ring. Sagecandor (talk) 20:38, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Meh. If they want to include content, the WP:ONUS is on them to provide sources for it. TimothyJosephWood 20:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

There's plenty of ways to explain the allegations without revealing personal information. First and foremost, this article needs to include the code words and links to the suspicious emails that supposedly use them, the pentagon underage children's photo investigation that has been stopped, the "do not forward" email from Clinton's campaign with the pizza logo on top of their logo, and others. Of course, we would have to include that all of these except for the pentagon pedophile investigation are hearsay and circumstantial at best. Iksnyrk (talk) 21:24, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

None of those sources are RELIABLE sources. What part of "please provide reliable sources" is so hard to understand? Exemplo347 (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Can I also add that one of the links you've added is a strong BLP violation and doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Exemplo347 (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I've removed the link that is the BLP violation, however the rest of the sources are CNN and Wikileaks and both satisfy RELIABLE. Iksnyrk (talk) 21:39, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Come on now, that Youtube video of a CNN episode is from 2011. Linking it to Pizzagate is beyond tenuous. Exemplo347 (talk) 21:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikileaks is no way no how a reliable source. (News articles based on Wikileaks sources and published by reputable outlets are a completely different story.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Is there a consensus on that? I couldn't find anything or any discussion that shows that Wikileaks is an unreliable source. I will gladly start the process to include Wikileaks as a RS if that hasn't happened yet. Iksnyrk (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Any site that is based on self-generated content is not considered reliable - in this case, the clue is in the "Wiki" part of the name. This is a long-established guideline and it really doesn't need discussing here. Exemplo347 (talk) 21:50, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I haven't bothered to go through WP:RSN to verify that, but I'm 100% certain of what the outcome of a discussion there would be. Wikileaks simply doesn't meet our WP:RS standard in any way whatsoever. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Your sources definitely need some work. Your sources only cite Wikileaks emails and Youtube videos instead of articles that actually discuss these concepts. Any fool can make YouTube videos; I have been making them for about a decade. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 21:29, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The sources should be included. Wikileaks is a reliable source, and the emails are highly significant to the article. Not including Wikileaks is censorship. Ag97 (talk) 23:53, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Ah, the C word. It's not censorship to exclude unreliable sources from Wikipedia articles. It's been the policy for years. There's no point in you discussing it here - if you want the policy changed, you need to look for the appropriate page and apply there. Until it's changed, Wikileaks will remain a source seen as Unreliable and any references that link to it will be removed from this article. There's nothing more to say on the matter. Exemplo347 (talk) 00:00, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, there is no consensus on Wikileaks being an unreliable source. The consensus actually seems to be that Wikileaks is quite reliable. There is no evidence of Wikileaks publishing fake articles, and most cybersecurity experts believe that most of the emails are unaltered. Also, many of the emails have been authenticated by DKIM. So you're making a pretty wild allegation by implying that the emails are fake and unreliable.Ag97 (talk) 00:14, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikileaks counts as a Self-Published Source. The "Wiki" part is the clue. It is, therefore, not a reliable source. What part of this is confusing you? Exemplo347 (talk) 00:17, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I think the main problem is that WikiLeaks is a primary source, and it's not our job to interpret them. ^Falling_Gravity 00:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

The problem with using Wikileaks documents as primary sources is that there's no way to authenticate them. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:25, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I'm arguing that we should not use them because they are primary sources. ^Falling_Gravity 00:29, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy clearly states that "primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia." No one is suggesting that the sources should be interpreted. I'm just saying they should be included. Since Wikipedia policy undeniably states that this is allowed, I'm not sure what the issue is here.Ag97 (talk) 00:38, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Not reputably published. No one will vouch for their authenticity. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:47, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Like I said before, Wikileaks is generally considered to be reliable. They have a strong record of consistently publishing accurate documents; they have published hundreds of thousands, if not millions of documents in the past that were accurate. In addition,many cybersecurity experts agree that the vast majority of the emails are accurate, and many have been authenticated by DKIM, a digital signature that undeniably proves the email has not been altered. Ag97 (talk) 01:17, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Pulling a single email with a picture of a pizza out of tens of thousands of emails is selective quotation of the primary source material and you have provided no reliable source which ascribes any particular meaning to that email which would justify selecting it out of context. "Here is a picture of a pizza in an email, therefore OMG CHILD SEX SCANDAL" is conspiratorial lunacy at its most absurd. The same goes for all the emails quoted there - no reliable source describes them as "suspicious" and so neither will Wikipedia. Similarly, you have cited no reliable source which ties an apparent 2011 CNN news segment to anything which relates to this issue. What it all amounts to is precisely nothing. And that is why Wikipedia treats the theory as precisely nothing. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:29, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Reliable sources cited in the article, such as Time, state that wikileaks emails about pizza are the origin of this entire conspiracy theory. So yes, selecting these emails is justified. The meaning of them is that they are the origin of the theory. I never said that they have to be described as "suspicious," I'm just saying that they should be described as the origin of the theory, which has been reported by many reliable sources and is indisputable.Ag97 (talk) 01:46, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Sure, we can say that e-mails discussing or related to pizza were the genesis of this; that doesn't require us linking to hacked e-mails to do so. We can link to reliable secondary sources which discuss the matter. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:23, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

DKIM ensures such as a receiver. I have never seen anyone claim it ensures such about a copied and published e-mail. Also, these e-mails are all out of context and subject to interpretation within the context that we don't possess. Objective3000 (talk) 01:30, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

No one is saying that the emails should be interpreted. I'm just saying that they should be included in the article. They are relevant because they are the origin of the theory, as reported by reliable sources.Ag97 (talk) 01:48, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

You stated the e-mails were: ...authenticated by DKIM, a digital signature that undeniably proves the email has not been altered. This is false as they went through a third party. Objective3000 (talk) 01:55, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about a third party. DKIM is universally considered by cybersecurity experts as a reliable way to prove that the emails have not been altered. Stories about the emails being faked are fake news that has been debunked by reliable sources and cybersecurity experts. This Fox news article does a good job debunking the fake claims.[19].Ag97 (talk) 02:36, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Based on a blog that doesn't even have an article in WP. DKIM is accurate when you have the original source. This e-mail was published by a wiki. They could have generated a new DKIM signature. Objective3000 (talk) 02:55, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

As an IT pro who knows how DKIM works, I can vouch for the above comment. Once copied and published, DKIM is as worthless as a photocopied signature. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 03:03, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to trust your opinion over a cybersecurity expert. The consensus among cybersecurity experts is that DKIM is reliable.Ag97 (talk) 03:38, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

The irony is respecting the security of e-mails in the same breath as one would talk about Wikileaks, which made its reputation on the insecurity of e-mails. Objective3000 (talk) 03:21, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I never said DKIM was unreliable, at least not in any sense that anyone who understands the first thing about DKIM would disagree with. It would really behoove you to actually read comments before replying to them. Or better yet, read this and figure out for yourself how ignorant that claim is. But as I said before, I'm a patient and helpful man. So allow me to illustrate how insecure it really is:

DKIM verified email proving that Tony Podesta thinks I'm the greatest Wikipedian

Delivered-To: john.podesta@gmail.com Received: by 10.25.88.78 with SMTP id m75csp149353lfb; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:56:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.66.146.196 with SMTP id te4mr26911337pab.125.1458338163299; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Return-Path: <podesta@podesta.com> Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1bon0099.outbound.protection.outlook.com. [157.56.111.99]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z13si10466876pas.7.2016.03.18.14.56.01 for <john.podesta@gmail.com> (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of podesta@podesta.com designates 157.56.111.99 as permitted sender) client-ip=157.56.111.99; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of podesta@podesta.com designates 157.56.111.99 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=podesta@podesta.com; dkim=pass header.i=@PodestaGroup.onmicrosoft.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=PodestaGroup.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-podesta-com; h=From:To:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=ScYGYbpMc8qohEq/Y9/J0e5oHmpNg48Kt4PEv4RFd74=; b=zXUWsdIaSJF4MUovQ/o4OoDhHoJ1Vtn/OL2Ykmhns2TTRYwpO+WO/WQn2q4JI/ZP5mnJOriHDTbnKyW8Fqu4B/SQiwHGDZBCt79qu+1IVhczLqWsnn/iCy2O1LCv0fcqlQiYiOoMIOmVEmq6HBrsTVycTUhcMI4WNpApouOxGFE= Received: from BY1PR0501MB1525.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.160.203.11) by BY1PR0501MB1528.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.160.203.139) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.434.16; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:55:59 +0000 Received: from BY1PR0501MB1525.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.203.11]) by BY1PR0501MB1525.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.160.203.11]) with mapi id 15.01.0434.021; Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:55:59 +0000 From: Tony Podesta <podesta@podesta.com> To: John Podesta <john.podesta@gmail.com> Subject: Greatest Wikipedian Thread-Topic: Greatest Wikipedian Thread-Index: AQHRgV1Mv0JzpvqYe0GXmBDweu0RSJ9fvveA Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:55:59 +0000 Message-ID: <BY1PR0501MB15258D98CB161348879BF9E8B58C0@BY1PR0501MB1525.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> References: <D6524ECF-93C3-4DB9-84B6-1120970CF49A@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <D6524ECF-93C3-4DB9-84B6-1120970CF49A@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=podesta.com; x-originating-ip: [38.88.33.130] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e862e952-cb2c-4631-7fbb-08d34f781732 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;BY1PR0501MB1528;5:euuE5EPiOlctdAdzAf6QoOSc9gCCyWXRlK9ctT6Lsk/yku1kKqVSjlpE2kOZP6b7ZirL+0+oqroNbRzwdeYM1zNvISTc81Gc+TWcC8mzmJMwquGZ3M0gYP8bjoycleM/A2G17j8xHpdB+bW9LMDZ2w==;24:/tsPQgwblsjOXvMiNsNlL/44DwnW3FFB+Td6zDxMYeLCFuigwGnN6DZVve5IhJ2OGl1p25h4LUUIcns00yPupybv/T6DMdGB9iKig1wCprE= x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1528; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <BY1PR0501MB1528EA95C467514AA943009BB58C0@BY1PR0501MB1528.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(102415293)(102615271)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001);SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1528;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1528; x-forefront-prvs: 088552DE73 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(13464003)(46034005)(377454003)(3280700002)(107886002)(87936001)(110136002)(1096002)(1220700001)(77096005)(92566002)(33656002)(86362001)(3660700001)(76576001)(122556002)(5002640100001)(5003600100002)(50986999)(66066001)(54356999)(2906002)(5008740100001)(76176999)(99936001)(5004730100002)(106116001)(10400500002)(558084003)(81166005)(2950100001)(74316001)(450100001)(586003)(189998001)(102836003)(6116002)(3846002)(2900100001)(99286002)(19580395003)(19580405001)(11100500001);DIR:OUT;SFP:1101;SCL:1;SRVR:BY1PR0501MB1528;H:BY1PR0501MB1525.namprd05.prod.outlook.com;FPR:;SPF:None;MLV:sfv;LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:23 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_003_BY1PR0501MB15258D98CB161348879BF9E8B58C0BY1PR0501MB1525_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: podesta.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Mar 2016 21:55:59.0727 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: aa7e357c-6692-4433-9f38-dcfe9592339c X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0501MB1528 --_003_BY1PR0501MB15258D98CB161348879BF9E8B58C0BY1PR0501MB1525_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MjolnirPants is the greatest editor of Wikipedia EVAR!!!!!11!!!!!11!1!11!!11!1!!1!

You see? DKIM proves that Tony Podesta really wrote that I am "the greatest editor of Wikipedia EVAR!!!!!11!!!!!11!1!11!!11!1!!1!" MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 05:26, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do, but I'm pretty sure you just wrote a fake email and then put DKIM verified in the title to try to trick inexperienced readers. By the way, if you can really forge an email that verifies with DKIM, congratulations! You've just won a free bitcoin worth $600! [20]. If you've really managed to accomplish what all the cyberexperts have failed to do, congratulations! You can claim your prize, and get your accomplishment published in a reputable source. But until you do that, I think that you're just trying to scam all of us by writing some random email that wasn't verified by anyone and just writing DKIM verified in the title to trick people. Ag97 (talk) 13:28, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

The article debunks the fake claim that DKIM signatures can be altered, saying "Graham says this is unlikely, since to do so they would have needed to access the HillaryClinton.com server." The opinion of a cybersecurity expert, reported by a mainstream media source, is a reliable source. Ag97 (talk) 03:32, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Curious. Exactly what reliable source reports that these emails in particular are the important ones? TimothyJosephWood 02:12, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

This Daily wire article [21] explicitly mentions the pizza map handkerchief. This Washingon City Paper[22] article does the same thing, as does the Snopes article that is cited in the main article. Ag97 (talk) 02:54, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Support. There is nothing wrong with describing the claims as long as we make clear that they're false. Not doing so is confusing to the reader. Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories provides an excellent example of how this can be accomplished. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:51, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Support - Reliable sources have described things proposed by the conspiracy theory before debunking them. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 21:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Recently, The New York Times came out with an article dissecting the claims of the conspiracy theory. Yoshiman6464 (talk) 13:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support in general, but not using the sources provided by the OP, nor to the level of detail described. The existing sources outline the claims well enough. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:25, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• WP:PRIMARY TimothyJosephWood 23:00, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support in concept as per above, but only by sourcing from reliable secondary sources which have done analysis and debunking of the claims and so are in a position to provide context. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:42, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

References for this section
References

Removed coatrack and copyright violation

The Daily Dot is the only source for this story, BBC Online is copying their prose verbatim, as is was Wikipedia. Sloppy, guys. SashiRolls (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

What stories are you exactly referring to? Yoshiman6464 (talk) 21:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The BBC story added nothing substantial to the Daily Dot story they mentioned briefly. Perhaps now that the Turkish media frenzy is a little trimmed down it will appear a little more neutral to people. I haven't read any further on the issue than this article and the two articles that were cited in that section. Hoping to keep it that way. ^^ SashiRolls (talk) 21:58, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Turkey and Turkish media involvement in spreading Pizzagate

1. Sozeri, Efe Kerem (23 November 2016), "How the alt-right's PizzaGate conspiracy hid real scandal in Turkey", The Daily Dot, retrieved 9 December 2016, In the last week, all Turkish pro-government papers, including mainstream publications like Sabah, A Haber, Yeni Şafak, Akşam and Star, ran similar stories about the PizzaGate, using the very same images and claims from a (now banned) subreddit to convince their readers on how serious and deep-rooted the scandal was. Columnists penned articles that the PizzaGate is a part of the globalist conspiracy against Turkey, and one article even remarked that the "Teenage" in pizza-eating Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles now makes sense as a pedophilia reference after PizzaGate.
2. "The saga of 'Pizzagate': The fake story that shows how conspiracy theories spread", BBC News, 2 December 2016, retrieved 9 December 2016, The fake story remained the preserve of 4chan and alt-right Reddit until mid-November, when Turkish pro-government media outlets suddenly took an intense interest. Their tweets were in Turkish, but they used the English hashtag: #Pizzagate.
3. King, Cecilia (21 November 2016), "Fake News Onslaught Targets Pizzeria as Nest of Child-Trafficking", The New York Times, retrieved 9 December 2016, Soon, dozens of fake news articles on sites such as Facebook, Planet Free Will and Living Resistance emerged. Readers shared the stories in Saudi Arabia and on Turkish and other foreign language sites.
4. "What is Pizzagate and how did it get cooked up?", The Week, 9 December 2016, retrieved 9 December 2016, In November, Turkish pro-government media suddenly started tweeting about the conspiracy theory using the hashtag #Pizzagate.
5. Sebastian, Michael (3 December 2016), "Even the Pizzagate Suspect No Longer Believes the Conspiracy Theory", Esquire, retrieved 9 December 2016, Also, the nation of Turkey is involved in the spread of Pizzagate. Around mid-November, the BBC explained, a pro-government media outlet in Turkey started tweeting the conspiracy theory using the hashtag #pizzagate. The reason, according to The Daily Dot, is that supporters of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan were trying to accuse opponents of hypocrisy. An actual child-abuse scandal had rocked a foundation connected to the Turkish government, and Erdogan's supporters were asking why people weren't also outraged over Pizzagate. In other words, it was meant as a distraction.
6. Tempey, Nathan (5 December 2016), "What On Earth Is Pizzagate And How Did It Result In Gunfire At Comet Ping Pong?", DCist, retrieved 9 December 2016, It first appeared on the politics message board of 4chan, a hive of internet trolling, metastasized on the biggest pro-Donald Trump subreddit, served as a convenient distraction for institutions loyal to Turkish President Recep Erdogan, and is now percolating on forums across the internet, as self-identified "investigators" comb the web for further clues. In the process, the frenzied pedo-truthers have published the personal information of numerous private citizens and bombarded their social media accounts, homes, and places of business with graphic threats.
7. Carlson, Margaret (23 November 2016), "A Fake Pizzagate Conspiracy for Our Fevered Age", Bloomberg News, retrieved 9 December 2016, his Instagram account got clogged a week before the presidential election with violent messages like, 'I will kill you personally.' He wondered why until he found out that on social media sites like 4Chan and Reddit and Facebook, and in the Twitter feed of Breitbart News, and as far away as Saudi Arabia and Turkey

Please use some of the above sources to add info to the article on Turkey and Turkish media involvement in spreading Pizzagate. Sagecandor (talk) 19:49, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to write a sentence from the Dot article, which is good, without plagiarizing them. I spoke too quickly, I meant "our" only source for this story, as I'm suree you can imagine, Sage. I came her via the morality plays at AE.SashiRolls (talk) 20:00, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

@Timothyjosephwood:Perhaps more could be added from above sources, maybe to expand the section on Turkish press reports? Sagecandor (talk) 20:58, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

NPOV tag

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Not seeing any suggested WP:SECONDARY sources recommended on this talk page to add something missing.

Therefore, the NPOV tag should be removed from the top of the article. Sagecandor (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I do not feel the NPOV Tag should have been added to this article. Experienced editors have gone to extensive pains to remove non-neutral language and revert non-neutral edits. The two posts referenced in the edit history when this NPOV tag was added were parts of discussions on the talk page that were both resolved. Maintaining a neutral point of view does not mean that every single point of view on a subject should be given equal weight. Wikipedia articles maintain a balance based on the significant, reliable, verifiable sources on a given subject. In this particular case, the Unanimous view of the press from all across the political spectrum means that to suggest there is a likelihood that this particular subject matter - Pizzagate - may actually have some truthful basis would be to give undue weight to something that has no reliable source to back it up.

I therefore see no point in adding the NPOV tag and I would be interested in hearing the motive behind its addition. Exemplo347 (talk) 20:50, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The rationale given was that two editors raised NPOV concerns here. However, one of them has never edited this page, and the other simply raised concerns over whether the article was complete enough. I haven't gotten extended confirmation yet (this is an alt account), or I would have reverted by now. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• Remove tag. The issues cited in support of the tag are minor in scope and readily resolvable. No need for an article-wide tag. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I have removed. {{POV}} is not a source, and is not the correct response to a request for a source. This is not 'nam. There are rules here. TimothyJosephWood 20:55, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

There are several discussions about neutrality on this talk page. Many users feel that the article is not written from a neutral point of view. No other article on wikipedia about a conspiracy theory is written like this one. The article is written as an editorial page attempting to debunk the theory, rather than give facts in a neutral way. No other wikipedia article on conspiracy theories, like 9/11 or Sandy Hook, does this. Ag97 (talk) 20:55, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Source. TimothyJosephWood 20:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

[23] and [24] are just a few examples of unresolved discussions. The article makes no attempt to describe the claims of the theory's supporters, and uses editorializing language throughout the article. Many users have commented about this in the talk page. Ag97 (talk) 21:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

As a WP:USERGENERATED content, Wikipedia is not considered a reliable source. TimothyJosephWood 21:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I too would like to see a source that says this article is deliberately setting out to debunk the Pizzagate issue. The fact that all the sources used by this article debunk Pizzagate is not Wikipedia's fault. It's an indication that reliable sources that say Pizzagate is true are 100% non-existent. If there was a reliable source, I'd add it to the article myself and fight for its continued inclusion because I believe Wikipedia articles should contain all relevant, reliably sourced information on a particular subject. In this case, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that this conspiracy theory is based on fact. Exemplo347 (talk) 21:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I have no issues with the sources, I have issues with editorializing language. For example, the article should read, "the theory has been described as fake news by the New York Times" rather than "the theory is debunked." Ag97 (talk) 21:11, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

So rather than "the theory is debunked", you would prefer The Seattle Times describes the theory as "Debunked" ? Exemplo347 (talk) 21:16, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the Seattle Times article you described is an opinion piece. Thanks for pointing that out. I will remove that reference, opinion pieces aren't valid sources. Ag97 (talk) 21:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Various reliable sources say the theory has been debunked. Sorry. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:17, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• Support removal. The issues raised are just some users (a few of which are now blocked) rehashing the same arguments. APK whisper in my ear 20:59, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
• P.S. Some people will never be satisfied until this article casts doubt on whether or not the accusations are true or false. I can't even provide the diffs since they've been deleted, but edit summaries like "removed word 'falsely'. That is only the opinion of the writer, the conspiracy theory has neither been proven nor disproven" and "Article isn't a biography, so WP:BLP doesn't apply" tell me all I need to know about how serious users are about the site's policies. APK whisper in my ear 21:06, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Comment on content, not contributor. TimothyJosephWood 21:09, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

All I'm saying is we shouldn't have to repeat "the theory is debunked" to the same people over and over. But I understand your point. Thanks. APK whisper in my ear 21:20, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

WP:NPOV states that articles should be written "without editorial bias." This article contains high amounts of editorial bias, directly violating WP:NPOV. Ag97 (talk) 21:15, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

You are essentially contenting that an article which reflects what the sources say accurately is biased. That is utterly nonsensical, and the reason for the current AE complaint filed against you. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 21:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Blanket statements like this aren't constructive. Keep it specific and try to suggest ways the article can be improved. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:19, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Here's some specific suggestions. Remove the word "debunked" from the lead. This word is redundant, the words "conspiracy theory" alone mean it's false. No other wikipedia article calls a conspiracy theory "debunked." Secondly, remove the heading "debunked" and merge that content with the responses section. Several users have expressed support of these changes, and they would make the article better. Ag97 (talk) 21:27, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Asked and answered and discussed and beaten to death already, higher on this talk page. Sagecandor (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

This latest reply strays a little bit from your original concern regarding NPOV. I'm not sure how it pertains to removal of the tag. As far as inclusion of the word "debunked" see the consensus that emerged on this talk page yesterday. Lizzius (talk) 21:35, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I see. Tags are for issues that lack consensus, and the consensus appears to be against you on both of these issues. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:37, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I counted 4 people supporting the change to merge the sections, and also 4 people opposed to the change, so I don't see any consensus there. Ag97 (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

This is just a Red Herring argument - it has nothing to do with your addition of an NPOV tag to this article. Exemplo347 (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ag97:This word is redundant, the words "conspiracy theory" alone mean it's false.

No, it doesn't. "The DNC helped Hillary win against Bernie" is a conspiracy theory. It is also true.

I counted 4 people supporting the change to merge the sections, and also 4 people opposed to the change, so I don't see any consensus there.

I strongly suggest you read WP:CONSENSUS. Consensus is not a vote. Furthermore, there are others who support the inclusion of the word who did not voice their opinion there, such as me. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 21:57, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but there are also others who agree with me who did not voice their opinion. Especially new editors, who might agree with me but can't edit because the article is locked. Ag97 (talk) 22:04, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Frankly, I find your arguments so ridiculous I'm reminded of Poe's law and I don't feel they're worth responding to, but I'm a patient man who takes WP:AGF seriously, so here goes an attempt to help you understand:

The editors I made reference to have, since the end of that discussion, expressed agreement with it here on this page. The editors you make reference to may or may not exist only in your imagination. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:08, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh, and again: Consensus is not a vote. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:09, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

If my arguments really are ridiculous, then they would be easily rebutted on this talk page and you wouldn't need to attempt to silence me by threatening to get me blocked. Ag97 (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

They have been. Many times. In fact, they were rebutted in the comment you just replied to. They were rebutted in the addendum I posted to that, which you rather carelessly bumped out of place with your rhetorical response. They were rebutted in the very opening of this section, and in my first comment here. They were rebutted in the closed discussion about the word "debunked". They have been rebutted at AE, and elsewhere. Your refusal to accept correction is not a failure on our part, but on yours. And as this has now descended into a thread where you and I discuss your behavior, and the rest of the participants simply cheer on those who've rebuked your attempts to change the POV of this article, it's time to close this discussion, too. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:23, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Reading over the article and Talk, I see no need for the NPOV tag. Pizzagate puts forth extremely serious charges. I think that it is important to include the word debunked exactly where it is so that the reader instantly understands that this small business is not a danger to the community. As for merging sections, that’s an issue of style. I don’t see the relevance to an NPOV tag. Objective3000 (talk) 22:14, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• Reminder WP:CLOSE is not a policy nor guideline, and like most things on WP, may be superseded by consensus. So, move to close because this conversation looks to have about a 0% chance of improving the article. TimothyJosephWood 00:06, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, close and collapse Exemplo347 (talk) 00:09, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Agreed, close and collapse per WP:NOTHERE and WP:DENY. Sagecandor (talk) 00:36, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

It's snowing. At some point, we have to stop wasting the time of volunteers. Objective3000 (talk) 00:55, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Public opinion polling

Whole section for one sentence seems WP:UNDUE WEIGHT.

Could just go up in general Responses section. Sagecandor (talk) 23:18, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Agree. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:22, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Not exactly an UNDUE issue. Choice of headers is mainly stylistic. See WP:HEADER. A minor detail perhaps, but just FYI. TimothyJosephWood 23:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Maybe when there is more polling on this issue and more discussion of it for like a couple paragraphs. But not now. Sagecandor (talk) 23:30, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that it's not an area covered by policy AFAIK. TimothyJosephWood 23:32, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

• Move it to "debunking" or some other section up the page. Drmies (talk) 02:57, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Done and done. TimothyJosephWood 03:18, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you ! Sagecandor (talk) 03:28, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Should infowars be described as fake news?

I'm no fan of that site, but I'm concerned that this wording is potentially defamatory. As user NorthSouthBaranOf helpfully pointed out on my talk page, "Wikipedia has emplaced extremely strong policies regarding material about living people, particularly negative (defamatory) claims about living people." However, the edit that he made without consensus accusing infowars of being fake news could itself be a defamatory claim about a living person. Alex Jones denied that infowars is a fake news site and said that it is legitimate.[25]. He also expressed concern that labelling infowars "fake news" might result in his site being shut down, which would remove his primary source of income. BLP states that when an article says something defamatory about a person, and that person denies the claim, that should be mentioned in the article. Since Jones has denied the claim, and infowars being fake news isn't properly cited, right now the recent edit made about Inforwars violated BLP by adding poorly sourced contentious material about a living person. Ag97 (talk) 13:49, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

InfoWars is a fake news site, per reliable sources. Where does WP:BLP say that we have to include his denial of spreading fake news? Because I re-read the whole thing just now and saw nothing about that. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:03, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

Your first source lists infowars as a "clickbait website," not a "fake news website," which is a much more accurate description. Your second source is a list complied by a partisan, leftist professor who has previously expressed great contempt for Donald Trump. That list also received heavy criticism for including several legitimate news websites, and in no way meets Wikipedia's criteria for a reliable source. See [WP:GRAPEVINE]Ag97 (talk) 14:17, 10 December 2016 (UTC)