Talk:Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother

Why this title?

This isn’t necessarily a request to move this article, but why is the article called “Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother” if the Royal consort convention is the maiden name? Queen Alexandra is “Alexandra of Denmark,” Edward IV’s consort is “Elizabeth Woodville,” and there is “Anne Boleyn,” “Catherine Parr,” etc etc, so why not “Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon?” 24.42.161.213 (talk) 00:21, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

It was decided at Talk:Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother/Archive 2#Requested move. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:42, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

High time to take another look at this after 11 years. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:43, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggest move

Article name should now be Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. Current title looks awfully outdated. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:46, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Support She's no longer the mother of the monarch, so the title is somewhat inaccurate. EmilySarah99 (talk) 05:58, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 17 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. WP:SNOW closure. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Vaulter 16:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

---

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother → Queen Mother Elizabeth – The current title is exceedingly long. The proposed title is a lot simpler. Interstellarity (talk) 21:32, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: Nobody, nowhere, no time, ever, has called her that. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:48, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per WP:COMMONAME, WP:NCNOB, and the previous RM discussion. The current title appears to be the common name, and there is currently a relevant citation directly in the first paragraph of this article. Wikipedia should not be the judge of whether such a name is "exceedingly long" if a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources continue to use it. Zzyzx11 (talk) 22:31, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
• This source uses the proposed name. Interstellarity (talk) 22:46, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

  Is that the same biography.com web site that is associated with the American TV show Biography? I would need to see more UK and other worldwide sources to be convinced otherwise. Zzyzx11 (talk) 02:28, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Current title is the common name. O.N.R. ^(talk) 00:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Is this a joke? Peter Ormond 💬 03:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose "Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" was her official name and title. She was alternatively known as The Queen Mother, but she was never referred to as Queen Mother Elizabeth. Keivan.f^Talk 04:21, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose - Ain't never read anywhere, that she was known by that title or name. GoodDay (talk) 04:57, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Unrecognizable. Incorrect style. Not the common name. DrKay (talk) 06:37, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per all the above. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:28, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Exceeding long?? A whole two more words. Why not just go for "Cookie"? That's much simpler. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:38, 18 July 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:PILEON YorkshireExpat (talk) 16:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request

The redirects Queen Mother and The Queen Mother currently point to this article.

Please link to the disambiguation page queen-mother (disambiguation)

Please change

{{Redirect|Queen Mother|the title|Queen mother|other people called Elizabeth the Queen Mother|Elizabeth the Queen Mother (disambiguation)}}

"Queen Mother" redirects here. For the title, see Queen mother. For other people called Elizabeth the Queen Mother, see Elizabeth the Queen Mother (disambiguation).

to:

{{Redirect|Queen Mother|the title|Queen mother|and|Queenmother|other uses|queen-mother (disambiguation)|other people called Elizabeth the Queen Mother|Elizabeth the Queen Mother (disambiguation)}}

"Queen Mother" redirects here. For the title, see Queen mother and Queenmother. For other uses, see queen-mother (disambiguation). For other people called Elizabeth the Queen Mother, see Elizabeth the Queen Mother (disambiguation).

-- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 21:14, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Too complicated. Only the disambiguation pages need to be linked as the articles are all linked from there. DrKay (talk) 06:25, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

That is not "too complicated" and the needed disambiguation pages are for the incoming redirects to this page. Otherwise, people will not be redirect for any incoming redirect to any page where they end up at, for whatever else they are looking for if it isn't at the destination landing page. Clearly "Queen Mother" redirects here, and clearly there are other uses of that topic, and clearly those uses are not "Elizabeth the Queen Mother" if they are for "Queen Mother" that are not "Elizabeth"

Many articles have much more disambiguation pages linked to on their hatnotes than just a single one that is only for the article's title, since they handle the incoming redirects that also have their own disambiguation pages. -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 11:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You're not making any sense. The needed disambiguation pages are linked already. DrKay (talk) 12:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about that. For some reason, when I read the page, your edit didn't show up and I still received the version of the page from when I originally filed an edit request for. -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 05:27, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Article name first?

Does "the article's name comes first in line one in bold type" not apply to this article? If that is the case, why this particular exception?. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:16, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Per MOS:LEADSENTENCE, "if possible". Exceptions are advised when it is cumbersome or creates clutter. DrKay (talk) 13:22, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes. The idea that an article's lead sentence should be twisted into a pretzel just so it can start by robotically barfing out its own title is one of the silliest of WP myths -- and that's saying a lot. EEng 18:54, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

"cumbersome or creates clutter" is exactly how it looks now... "... Angela Marguerite ... etc" Why not start a move request before too much more time goes by making this article name look more and more obsolete, not to say disrespectfully ridiculous? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:27, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 10 September 2022

Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother → Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon – Following the death of her daughter, Queen Mother is no longer an appropriate or useful title as it does not apply to the present. Per Mary of Teck et al. U-Mos (talk) 06:39, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:SUSTAINED and WP:COMMONNAME. Whenever you hear the Queen Mother, you think of Elizabeth. Until such time as we find its no longer in common use, then might be the time. But for now, leave it be. Plus Mary of Teck didn't use the title as she didn't like it. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 07:45, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose as per above, she is still The Queen Mother in common usage (admittedly I'd say Queen Mary is still Queen Mary but that is another discussion). Bayonet-lightbulb (talk) 07:58, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support At any other time I would oppose, but now Charles is king, I think it should be changed to be consistent with other royal consorts in British history. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 12:41, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
  • The problem is that not every "Queen Mother" used the title, Mary of Teck being a good example. I do think WP:COMMMONNAME has to rule out here. The C of E God Save the King! (talk)
• Support Since Queen Elizabeth II has passed and Charles III is the new monarch, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon cannot be correctly referred to as "Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother." Unlimitedlead (talk) 16:15, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
  • She can if it's still proven to be WP:COMMONNAME/ The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 20:02, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
  • Also, women who were not actually mother of the current monarch can hold the title, and have done so. The title is no more or less correct than it was a week ago. --90.254.226.63 (talk) 07:06, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support The Queen Mother should be known by her maiden name as pervious queen consorts. Her common is already mentioned at the article lead. AKTC3 (talk) 17:47, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support - I support for the reasons listed above. --YoungstownToast (talk) 18:46, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose As per WP:COMMONNAME. If the article title were something like "Queen Elizabeth (mother of the Queen)" then the Queen's death would clearly make change necessary. As it is, it does not seem relevant. Queen Mother is simply a title, and one that is not necessarily held by the actual mother of the reigning monarch. Mary of Teck held it during the Queen's reign, until 1953 and if the Queen had predeceased her mother and Charles had become king while she was still alive, the subject of this article would not have lost that title. So recent events do not alter things. She is still a well-known figure and that is how she is universally known. --90.254.226.63 (talk) 20:10, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support - I support for the reasons listed above. - HLE (talk) 22:29, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support move from obsolete title. The monarch of whom she was queen mother has died. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:28, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose due to WP:COMMONNAME and possibly even WP:RECENTISM. This is her commonly known name that she will be known as for history. News reports currently are still referring to her as that. Also, no other spouse of a monarch has their article as their full name, so changing this will just contradict other article's names. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 00:11, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

  No other spouse of a monarch has their article as their “full name” because they were royalty and The Queen Mother was not before her marriage. “Mary of Teck,” was Queen Mary’s maiden name, as “Alexandra of Denmark,” was Queen Alexandra’s maiden name. Plus, there was Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth Woodville, Catherine Howard, etc etc. So no, Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon would not contradict convention. AKTC3 (talk) 03:38, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support - Her title as "Queen Mother" is now defunct with the passing of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. Unless WP:COMMONNAME changes to "Queen Grandmother" I would suggest using her maiden name.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:01, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

The title doesn't become defunct or pass to someone else when a current monarch dies. The death of the Queen is not relevant here. --90.254.226.63 (talk) 06:25, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd say it does become defunct. If the death of the monarch is irrelevant all of these british queen mothers would still be reffered to as such. Also note the definition used in that article. We have to be consistent across the website. EmilySarah99 (talk) 07:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon is not the Monarch's mother. EmilySarah99 (talk) 07:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
• Comment The death of Elizabeth II has no effect on her mother's title and rank. She was Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother at the time of her death and that's how she will be referred to as, similar to Albert, Prince Consort (born Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha), and Diana, Princess of Wales (born Diana Spencer). Thus, the argument that she's no longer the Queen Mother is void (Albert is not the Prince Consort and Diana is not the Princess of Wales at the moment either). A case could be made for "Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon" based on WP:NCROY and WP:TITLECON, which would favor maiden names over marital names for royal consorts, but that could work only if it's shown that the current title is not WP:COMMONNAME. Keivan.f^Talk 07:22, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Your association of "Queen Mother" and "Consort [of Queen Victoria]" is irrelevant here. As of the death of Elizabeth II, this article title is obsolete and makes Wikipedia look bad. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:49, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

On the contrary, it's not. Alexandra, the consort of Edward VII is referred to as Queen Alexandra to this day. Just like Mary, the consort of George V who's still Queen Mary. People's titles don't change when they die or their children die. That's not how it works. Keivan.f^Talk 14:49, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is not Wikipedia’s role to invent titles. WAIT AND SEE. Royal.uk still refers to her as Queen Mother as there is a strong reason to suspect this will not change (as that is what she was always known as). It is a title - not a description. So let’s wait and see. BeaujolaisFortune (talk) 13:17, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Worth noting that that link describes the younger Elizabeth as the present sovereign, so doesn't really justify continued use of this title. Also not sure how electing to use her full name from earlier in her history would be inventing a title, but I respect there are arguments for either article name at the present time. U-Mos (talk) 07:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose She is so commonly known as the "Queen Mother" that even in the coverage involving the Queen's death, they still are calling her the "Queen Mother", and I doubt it might change to the public, being she had that title for about 50 years. If Diana, Princess of Wales was still alive, and William was on the throne, then it might have needed addressed (Please see correction below), but as its very unlikely we'll see the "Queen Mother" used again in the UK till maybe the current Princess of Wales first child would take the throne. TheCorriynial 13:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

  • Comment: If Prince William ascended the throne, the title of "Queen Mother" would not need to be addressed because the title is accorded only to queen consorts. Diana was not a queen. Unlimitedlead (talk) 20:10, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

  • Correct. He probably would have restored her HRH, but she would not have been the Queen Mother. For example, Lady Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII, was simply known as The King's Mother. Keivan.f^Talk 20:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

    Thats something I didn't know, so thanks for the correction. But after reading some discussion on Camilla, Queen consort of the United Kingdom, I might be in more in the camp of lets wait until we have some clarity on other members of the family. TheCorriynial (talk) 01:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per reasons above. If the queen herself will forever be referred to as Queen Elizabeth, then her mother should, likewise, be the Queen Mother. They still both share the name "Elizabeth", and I certainly don't think we'll have another Elizabeth in the Royal Family for quite some time so as to justify changing the title of this article to minimize confusion. BiscuitsToTheRescue (talk) 21:56, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose Per COMMONNAME and RECOGNIZE. And I agree with BeaujolaisFortune; we shouldn't be inventing titles unless absolutely necessary. InvadingInvader (talk) 03:44, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Opposs the death of the queen has NOTHING to do with the commonly used title of The Queen Mother. She is the queen mother and always will be. DailyJew (talk) 07:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Worth making clear that WP:COMMONNAME is by no means a consideration above all else per Wikipedia policy. That section states that the common name is usually that which will best fit the five WP:CRITERIA. So is it in this case? Most recognisable, that probably still is the Queen Mother title for now. Most natural, also probably, though not in the case of all links, where her past is being discussed. Most precise, that's where I'd suggest Bowes-Lyon is now overtaking for the reasons stated. Concise, neither has issues. Consistency, Bowes-Lyon has it. U-Mos (talk) 07:59, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support. Sure, maybe it's still a common name right now. But will it still be in a year? In five years? The name will be confusing. She has a perfectly valid and accurate name of her own, no need to define her by her relationship with her daughter. The "Queen Mother" title can still be prominently displayed and explained in the lede. SnowFire (talk) 09:19, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support. Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen, Alexandra of Denmark, Mary of Teck etc. --Privybst (talk) 09:31, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Diana, Princess of Wales, Albert, Prince Consort, etc. Plus WP:COMMONNAME. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:46, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose unlike other widows of former monarchs, the Queen Mother was part of her official title. The death of Queen Elizabeth II has no effect on Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother's official title. Mrmariomaster (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2022 (UTC)