Talk:Race and intelligence

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Evolution exclusions?

I understand that the article is a heated issue but when something needs to be said I say it. Specific arguments I am not at the moment qualified to debate have raised the issue and certainly there is much current academic work addressing evolution's influences here and with the transportation advancements of the 20th century along with cultural taboos regarding interracial relationships falling by the waysides, it's undoubtedly soon to be a moot and unverifiable matter soon anyway. HOWEVER I would really love to see someone present the argument that the human brain, an organ of our anatomy, is the only organ to be immune to the effects of evolution that have been observed in other organs in the various ethnic groups distributed about the planet. Adaptation, Natural Selection, Survival of the fittest, Diet over many generations- whatever you like. What made the brain immune? Humbly looking not to question but for an answer. Batvette (talk) 00:23, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, first, better food does not cause evolution, only survival of the fittest does. But the brain HAS evolved. The race/IQ gap exists because Africans evolved when they left Africa in order to deal with things like their land being covered in ice (something Africans had never seen). Only the smartest (black) Africans survived in the snow and ice. For boring reasons involving sunlight amount and synthesis of vitamins in the skin, the races which evolved in these colder places developed lighter skin. Skin color actually has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence (other than a strong statical correlation). The Africans going west became whites, and the ones going east became Asians. That's why those two races have larger brains than Africans (the "larger brains" is not controversial among scientists). And it's why Africans IQ-test as mentally retarded. This is not my theory; it's both supported and explicitly suggested by peer-reviewed articles in such Academic journals as Intelligence and the one by the APA, but nobody ANYWHERE dares talk about it outside academia.

Even a lot of (presumably well-intentioned) people here try very very hard to suppress all these truths, which as individual statements are uncontested among scientists. The way the truth-suppressors (and others like the media) avoid these facts without telling obvious lies is, to me HILARIOUS, and is really the only reason I care at all about race/IQ. The fact is, I don't care which race is smarter or even if any are smarter at all, but I LOVE watching liars squirm and sweat and make up yet more ridiculous explanations for their obvious lies! In RL they get mad and either shout at you or run away, but here in the wiki world, they throw you out if you shout. And if you run away, other people erase the lies you told, making you look like an idiot when you tell them to somebody else.

Nevertheless, the fact that whites and asians are, literally, more highly evolved is not funny at all; it's tragic. But it HAS been proven true, and you can't make truth false by beating up people who tell it. My personal view is that in this country, no one is educated to their full potential except retards, and that's a crime against humanity. TechnoFaye Kane 03:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Batvette, Techno: Wikipedia present ideas that can be verified is reputable, published sources. If you believe that any of the above statements are true, then please present reputable sources who discuss and explain them so that we can agree on the matter. Please note, however, that neither the article nor the talk page is intended as a forum for idle speculation on the topic. --Ludwigs2 14:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

As a layman, I can give some ideas why evolution does not necessarily make people more intelligent. First, IQ does not correlate well with success - hence the invention of emotional intelligence, which is supposed to. Secondly, no one likes a smart ass. In a multi-player game, which life is, jealousy can count against the "best" player as the weak group together. You can see this in any revolution by the "masses" against their betters. In the old days, a better brain needed more nourishment and hence more likely starvation when food was short - this still applies across much of the world. In the modern world, higher intelligence leads to more powerful inventions and arguably better weapons for terrorists, global warming etc. Intelligence combined with greed has led to the raping of the world's precious resources - a more stupid country probably wouldn't have been able to squander millions of years of resources in a few generations, so doing better in the long run. All in all, it is not obvious that evolution always favours intelligence. Stephen B Streater (talk) 15:37, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

>As a layman, I can give some ideas why evolution does not necessarily make people more intelligent.

But can you give any that aren't merely your opinion? You have not done so here.

> First, IQ does not correlate well with success

If by success you mean "rich white businessman" success, then I agree. I have had rich, lexus-driving managers who are profoundly stupid. You are also correct that the white man has done more damage to everyone else, the planet, and themselves than all other people combined.

But we're talking about evolution. What the greedy repiglican businessmen have done is completely irrelevant to that because evolution requires tens of thousands of years for even the slightest visible changes. The white man's wholesale pillage and destruction have only been going on for about 2,000 years. That's not enough time to say that intelligence prevents evolution. In fact, as life evolves, there is a monotonic rise in brain capacitity and intelligence. Monkeys aren't self-aware. Apes are (refs on req). And no ape ever made a fire.

Secondly, no one likes a smart ass.

I can vouch for that by all the nasty emails I get every time I write anything on the internet.

In a multi-player game, which life is, jealousy can count against the "best" player as the weak group together. You can see this in any revolution by the "masses" against their betters.

Sure! But that doesn't have anything to do with evolution.

In the old days, a better brain needed more nourishment and hence more likely starvation when food was short - this still applies across much of the world.

Sadly, I'm afraid that you, literally don't know what you're talking about. Where have stupid people survived when smart ones died of starvation for no other reason than their brains required more nutrition? The brain uses only 20% of the body's energy output, and the difference in energy use between a smart and a stupid person requires a PET scan even to measure. It's microwatts.

In the modern world, higher intelligence leads to [all kinds of bad things]

Yes, but those bad things don't have anything to do with evolution. Evil white people have LOTS of kids, and that's how you measure evolutionary success.

> a more stupid country probably wouldn't have been able to squander millions of years of resources in a few generations, so doing better in the long run.

Yeah, but "the long run" hasn't happened yet. Only when people like cheney and the iraq towelheads nuke all human life off the planet can you say that intelligence subverts evolution. So far, the importance of intelligence in evolution is only surpassed by the inventions of RNA, prokaryotic cells, multicelluar organisms, and sex. TechnoFaye Kane 06:21, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

You may have missed the point of my response. It is not intended to be a thoroughly researched and sourced text for article space, merely a spread of ideas which show why it is not obvious that high intelligence is always a one-way evolutionary bet. Since you asked, my comments are not all my opinion, so I suppose that means that I have already included ideas which aren't merely my opinion. I notice make a number of uncited assertions yourself, BTW. I'd be particularly interested in your source for your microwatts statement, given that the large brain size in humans is generally agreed to be both necessary for high intelligence and costly in energy terms - see Introduction, for example. Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:56, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Report on Rewrite

I have finished my two days (plus two hours) of work on the rewrite. Comments: 1) Thanks to all editors for allowing my the freedom to make so many dramatic changes. 2) I did the best I could but, obviously, the article still needs a lot of work. My main failure was in not rewriting the environmental and heriditarian interpretation sections. Right now, they are just a collection of unconnected comments from the previous version. There are several other editors involved in this article (DJ, Aprock, Occam, MathSci) who could do a great job with those sections. I hope they will be bold! 3) The main improvements, I think, are: First, I used the outline that arose from the mediation. I played no part in writing that outline, nor do I particularly like it, but Wikipedia is all about consensus. Second, I dramatically decreased the length of the article. WP:Size recommends 30-50K for an article size, so my cutting was extensive. Third, I tried to significantly clean up the references and other junk. Needless to say, there is still much more that could be done. David.Kane (talk) 14:08, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Lead Discussion

I think the image to the right would be acceptable for illustrating both the differences as well as the considerable overlap between group scores in the US. I'm assuming Mathsci (and perhaps others) have an objection? Btw, I'm entirely flexible on this. --Aryaman (talk) 10:14, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I think this is fine in the main body of the text where more context is provided. The lede has been written with reference to worldwide IQ testing, not just the US, so that would be another factor arguing against its prominent inclusion in the lede. For the time being it seems best to concentrate on content rather than images, which can be moved around at a later stage. Mathsci (talk) 10:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this image belongs in the lead. David.Kane (talk) 12:33, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Can I just ask if someone has checked to make sure this image really appears in the source cited and that it is real data from a wide-ranging survey of some kind? I ask because I find it incredible that four groups were tested and found to have very different average IQ's, yet they all had the EXACT same frequency distribution of IQ relative to the mean. Studying human height you will find that more deprived populations tend to have wider bell curves, because diseases that stunt growth don't affect everybody, they come hit-or-miss. I would expect intelligence to behave the same way unless it really is 100% genetic with no environmental influences at all. If that's what the data says, then I have no objections, but I just want to be sure we're not letting false information into the article under the assumption that it's legitimate. —Soap— 13:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

With regard to the new lead, I have been bold and made some (minor?) changes. Outside of that, I think that the new second paragraph is excellent, albeit a bit wordy. But my main concern is that there are no citations to support it. Then again, everything in there is supported later in the article. Question: Wouldn't it be a good idea to cite at least a few things here, at least the APA report? David.Kane (talk) 13:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

With regard to the third paragraph, are there other academic bodies besides the APA that have made "official statements" which concluded that "the cause of the racial IQ gap is currently unknown?" Not that I know of . . . . David.Kane (talk) 13:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I think using the image in the lead is a bad idea, even if Soap's concerns are unfounded, the image completely adopts and lends legitimcacy to the both of the problematic categories of "race" and "intelligence" without conveying any of the problemes involved in their definition. I would find it misleading in the lead, but appropriate in a section of the article particularly describing the studies on which the graph is based.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:43, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm slightly peripheral to this discussion, but I would nevertheless be concerned that having such a prominent diagram showing race vs IQ is conflating the ideas of IQ and intelligence, which are different things. There are many issues with IQ, including one clearly shown in the diagram - the assumption that IQ is normally distributed (it's actually a ratio, as I'm sure you know). In fact the figures are fixed to make it normally distributed - but then the results for the different distributions for different races are affected in different ways by these adjustments, so they can't all be normally distributed at the same time. Hence the differences between the normal distributions is an inaccurate representation of the differences between the actual distributions. In summary the diagram is suspect for two reasons:

• Intelligence is not the same as IQ, so the lede should not give undue weight to IQ by giving it such a prominent image
• The normal distribution in IQ shown only applies after normalising the results - but you can't in general do this for more than one distribution at a time. As each race has a different distribution, they can't all be normalised at once. The diagram must show an idealised (and hence subjective) picture of what would have happened if the IQs all were exactly normally distributed with different means but identical standard deviations. This does not show an experimental result, but a "what if" speculation - again not something which should be given undue weight. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:42, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
• I've just read Soap's comment - this mirrors my second concern (vice versa in fact!) that the graphs look suspect. Stephen B Streater (talk) 21:45, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

These are serious concerns. What is the source for the graphs? They come from Reynolds, Chastain, Kaufman, & McLean, 1987, p. 330, but did thse authors normalize the curves? That we provide it, i.e. that it is not copyrighted, suggests to me that a Wikipedian manipulated the data. The Wikipedian who uploaded the image is no longer active, butif he did it, I'd say it violates SYNTH; Slrubenstein | Talk

Two important secondary sources not used so far

• Nicholas Mackintosh, IQ and Human Intelligence, OUP, with a chapter on group differences including around 40 pages devoted to ethnic groups.This text book has received excellent reviews.
• Jefferson M. Fish, Race and Intelligence: separating science from myth, with contributions by anthropologists, psychologists, sociologists, biologists, statisticians and historians from major US universities,

Mathsci (talk) 11:05, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Interesting. 1) Do you happen to have any extracts of these available? The pdf you kindly provided of Appendix B from Nisbett was very useful. 2) If not, could you describe just what sort of material/facts these books provide that are not already included in the article? David.Kane (talk) 14:01, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Funny you should ask. The first can be read on amazon.com and the second on google books. Perhaps users more ingenious/devious than me can find complete versions without going to a library (eg Mackintosh seems to be on questia.com). Both these books I think are in the "references" article. The first seems extremely balanced and well written, probable for a non-specialist readership. Mackintosh describes in full detail most of the details of the debate from the point of view of a psychometrist; the second is a selection of articles by a diverse interdisciplinary group discussing different aspects of the debate about race and intelligence - in the particular they discuss why all attempts so far to argue for a genetic mechanism have been flawed. Mathsci (talk) 14:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! I am reading Mackintosh now and agree with your assessment. Most of the key chapter seems to be available, although some pages are missing. Side note: What is the proper method of using a secondary source like this in a Wikipedia article? That is, we could almost write both the environmental and heriditarian sections just relying on his excellent description of these two views. He seems to cover both sides fairly and completely. Would it be OK to do that and just cite him? (We would also cite some of the main work by both sides, as well.) I am unfamiliar with the conventions in the use of primary sources versus secondary sources. David.Kane (talk) 14:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not familiar with these sources, so I cannot comment on how good an account Mackintosh gives of the two views although I am inclined to trust David Kane. But here is how I would answer the question: There are two main concerns: that a summarizers account is biased, or that it is incomplete. SO, I would frame the whole thing with a hook that Mackintosh's book provides a useful summary of the views. That way, if a future editor comes across another account that they think itself constituts a distinct view (and thus highlights Mackintosh's bias) it would be very easy for them to rewrite the lead to say that Mackintosh and X have different views of the debate, M empnasizing some things, X, something else. nd then, I would be clear to provide each element of his account separately with a separate citation. That way, future editors who think some M's account is generally fine but think some element is missing from it can add the missing element (with proper citation) without seriously scfrewing up the flow of the section. In other words, try to imagine how future editors may wish to change or add to what you write, and write in a way that allows for thatr without ruining the integrity of your own writing. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:19, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Another important twin-study

David, in your nxt revision can you add a summary of the important twin study by ECJ Moore? Moore compared black and mixed-race children adopted by either black or white families, and found no difference in IQ between black and mixed-race children, whether raised by black or white families. The IQs of both black and mixed race children, however, were about 13 points higher if raised by white families than if raised by black families. This study indicates no superiority whatever of the mixed-race children over the black children and it indicates that essentially the entire difference between the IQs of black and white at the time of the study could be accounted for by environmental factors associated with race.

Source: Moore, E. C. J. (1986). "Family socialization and the IQ test performance of traditionally and trans-racially adopted black children." Developmental Psychology, 22, 317-326.

If you have trouble finding the source I can try to access it for you. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 22:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

This may help. --DJ (talk) 23:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Biological parents	Number of children	Initial testing	10-year follow-up
Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study initially tested at age 7
Black-black	21	91.4	83.7
Black-white	55	105.4	93.2
White-white	16	111.5	101.5
Biological children	101	110.5	105.5
Moore (1986) initially tested at age 7-10
Black-black	9	108.7	not done
Black-white	14	107.2	not done
Eyferth (1961) initially tested at age 5-13
Black-white	171	96.5	not done
White-white	70	97.2	not done

Thanks DJ. Is MTAS "Weinberg et. al.?" I ask because, in terms of style, I think the table would look better if each part were consistent i.e. we either use the name of the srticle or research project for all three, or the name of the PI for all three. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:39, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Lead discussion

Mathsci, why don't you say what your problem with David Kane's version of the lead is instead of just reverting and risking an editwar? This seems like a good time to enter a BRD cycle we have had both the B and the R now we just need to discuss. At present the only argument you have given against David Kanes version is that he doesn't have permission to change the lead - thats not a very good one and I am sure you have some better ones - lets hear them and then start the discussion.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:51, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Ahem, I have explained in detail on the mediation talk page (it has taken over from this talk page) and on David.Kane's talk page.

Ok, as I am not watching those I only saw what looked like a potentially evolving editwar.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately David.Kane's carte blanche for editing preempts any discussion. The lede I restored was discussed in great detail on the mediation talk page. This again is one of the problems with Ludwigs2's unilateral decision to have the article redrafted in mainspace. After two days of discussion of the lede, in which Daivd.Kane did not participate very much but in which - rare event! - there was a consensus on both sides of mediation, David.Kane has now removed carefully crafted neutral phrases and replaced them by non-neutral, even inflammatory, phrases, which are unlikely ever to be agreed upon. WP:BRD unfortunately cannot be used when Ludwigs2 has imposed these bizarre editing rules which go against normal wikipedia policies. For example a discussion of the changes is also occurring on the mediation pages and on David.Kane's talk page (and mine). I don't think the present editing conditions are healthy. Mathsci (talk) 14:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree that Ludwigs idea that giving one editor special privileges as a rewriter of the article is not a very good idea (unless its done at a subpage) and does not work well with other wikipedia policies. Editwarring doesn't help either though, theres got to be some sort of constructive solution, I guess the mediation page is the right thing to discuss this.·Maunus·ƛ· 16:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Maunus: Thanks for the suggestion to discuss. Here are two of my key issues for the lead. First, the article is supposed to have a global focus. It is not "Race and Intelligence in the United States" or "Race and Intelligence in the United Kingdom." It is just "Race and Intelligence." So, at least in the lead, all racial terms and links should be global (as best as possible) and not US-specific. For example, we should not use African American. Second, I am comfortable with a lead that does not mention any specific researcher my name. I am also comfortable with a lead that mentions a variety of notable researchers on both sides (as mine does.) But a lead which only mentions researchers by name on one side of the issue, as MathSci's does, makes no sense (to me). There are other issues, but those are the two key ones. David.Kane (talk) 14:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The article cannot have a more global focus than the data used in the studies on which it is based. You cannot simply extrapolate studies regarding americans or brits to cover the entire globe. Whether we like it or not studies of correlations between race and intelligence in areas outside of the US and UK are few and far between.·Maunus·ƛ· 08:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed! If the article only cited sources (both primary and secondary) that only covered the US and the UK, then the lead should specify that. But the sources we have provide extensive coverage of other countries! Now, that coverage is not equal by any means. Englsh-language countries (Canada, Australia) have more coverage. Japan/Korea/Taiwan have more coverage than African countries. But, given that the sources we use discuss many countries, the lead should reflect that. Or am I missing something? David.Kane (talk) 14:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite Number 2 Complete (?)

(A version of this comment also appears on the mediation page.)

I have finished my one day plus a few hours of work on the rewrite. Comments:

• Thanks to all editors for allowing my the freedom to make so many dramatic changes.
• I did the best I could but, obviously, the article still needs a lot of work. My main failure was to just leave so much undone. Several of the new sections are empty shells. There are several other editors involved in this article (DJ, Aprock, Occam, MathSci) who could do a great job filling in those sections. I hope they will be bold! I will add some material in the near future.
• The main improvements, I think, are:

• • First, I followed (my interpretation of) advice from Slrubenstein and MathSci. The article now uses an (excellent) secondary source (Nisbett 2009) as a framework in which to organize the article. Thanks to MathSci for providing Appendix B. As Slrubenstein, this allows future editors to fix up discrete sections (on, say, reaction times or inbreeding depression) without upsetting the structure of the article as a whole.

• • Second, I tried to significantly clean up the references and other junk. Needless to say, there is still much more that could be done.

I will leave it to other editors to judge whether or not this version, taken as a whole, is superior to the previous one. I look to the mediator for discussion about where we go from here. My recommendation: See if there is consensus that this version is better then where we started and see if there is consensus to end this mediation and go back to normal editing. David.Kane (talk) 22:08, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Where did the nutrition section go?

The article mentions lynn's world wide "data" without taking into account all the relevant facts. for south asia, for example, it is relevant to add the fact that almost 70 % of pakistanis suffer from iodine deficiencies, resulting in a huge loss of cognitive abilities (see e.g. http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/national/16-twothirds-of-schoolchildren-iodine-deficient-report-hs-07). the same point has been made by the copenhagen consensus with respect to many other third world countries( see e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_and_intelligence#Micronutrients_and_vitamin_deficiencies).

in fact, the wiki page about "iq and global inequality" (the book in which lynn's "world wide data" is found) states:

"lynn and vanhanen recommend the provision of iodine and other micronutrients as a way to increase cognitive functioning in the third world." (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_Global_Inequality#National_IQ_and_QHC_values) mustihussain 23:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article at present has been rewritten in an unneutral way by David.Kane, with a lot of POV-pushing. Often it's very hard to see any link between whay he has written and what can be found in the secondary sources. Mathsci (talk) 00:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Which specific sentences do you find problematic? David.Kane (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Well for starters the article I cited on the mediation talk page by Jeremy Gray and Paul Thompson explains there is almost no academic research in race and intelligence. But in the first sentence of the lede and further on you suggest the contrary. The whole lede goes on like this. Writing in that way is usually called "POV-pushing". Another problem is where do Australian aborigines come in the David.Kane hierarchy of races and which secondary source have you used for the four aggregated groups. Again this looke like WP:OR and WP:SYNTH with no secondary sources. Why write this kind of stuff if you don't have a secondary source? Mathsci (talk) 01:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Any way moot now. Mathsci (talk) 01:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

"almost no academic research in race and intelligence"? I am not sure where to go with that. Do you disagree that, say, Rushton and Jensen (2005) involves race and intelligence? How about a dozen of the other articles listed in the notes? This may represent 0.0000001% of all academic research in all topics, but it is enough academic research to justify a Wikipedia article. And, obviously, my sentence makes no claim about the total amount of such research. I just claim/imply that such research exists. David.Kane (talk) 01:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

On the talk page of mediation, I gave this quote from an article in Nature Reviews by Gray and Thompson: "In light of such unresolved ethical issues, many neuroscientists have been reluctant to investigate individual or group differences in intelligence. Few scientists investigate race differences in intelligence; those who do are overwhelmingly white." So 2 reputable scientists state exactly what I said. There are only a handful of scientists doing research into race and intelligence, many of them funded by the Pioneer Fund.

Now could you answer my objection about the Australian aborigines. Where did they disappear in your personal classification of racial groups into four aggregates? The wikilink by you to racial group blatantly assumed a scientifically valid classification into biological races which has been criticized in multiple secondary sources. I can continue with almost every sentence that you introduced into the lede and with those you omitted. Jensen's 1969 paper sparked controversy in the academic and public world: this is recorded in secondary sources. Why remove such things? To me it just looks like WP:IDONTLIKEIT. But perhaps you have a better explanation? Mathsci (talk) 06:37, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I haven't had time to get involved, but of course, under WP:NPOV, all significant views should be presented. Stephen B Streater (talk) 08:44, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Responses to MathSci:

• I could imagine including Australian aborigines in the lead. Do you really want to do that? There are certainly several editors who would agree with you. I did not put it in because I was making a good faith effort to create a lead that would reach consensus.
• Are you blaming me for the quality of racial group? If you think that this Wikipedia article is fundamentally flawed then, obviously, you should fix it. It seems OK to me.
• I was trying to trim down the history section. Indeed, as you can see, I trimmed all sections of the article, making it dramatically smaller than it used to be. Virtually every editor agreed that this was desirable. I have no problem with you (or any other editor) expanding the history section, or any other section of the article. David.Kane (talk) 14:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

History

I think that a history section - or additional sections organized historically - could be a good thing. But what would be the point? This is not a rhetorical question: I think we need to answer this question before it is possible to write a good history section. We need to discuss the rules - the principles or criteria - for deciding what would go into such a section, or sections, for determining how far back to go.

Offhand i can conceive of a few such principle and unles anyone objects I hope we can use them.

First, a history section can help show the institutional context, how it has changed over time, and how it has shaped research. Who uses IQ tests (i.e. the story from starting in the army to becoming almost universal) aqnd why? What scholars have studied the relationship between race and IQ. When did scholars first start publishing articles on the topic, and in which journals? When did journals focusing on this topic first come into existence? Who fonded them and supported them? What foundations support this research? What academic departments support thse journals or employ researchers? Scientific knowledge does not just appear. It is created in an institutional context. Such a section will help readers understand the context in which scientists work.

Second, a history of research qustions and how they have changed - this is one element of virtually any good lit. review and is always illuminating. Why is it that researchers' interests may change over time? What forces within the media shape this? And outside of the media? Or is there a natural progression of debats among scientists? Such a section can inform readers as to the role scientists themselves play in determining their research. What are scientists really interested in? What makes a research question appealing (why would a foundation pay for the research? Why would a journal publish it)? uch a section will help readers understand how scientists actually work.

Finally, a history of debates over this research. One might think of this as a history of criticisms of the research; I am supposing that the reasons people have been critical of the research has changed.

These are a few things that unfold over time, and to write the article as if all things were in play at the ame time would only confuse the reader. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Note that there are several complaints (from, at least, A.Prock, Bpesta22, Captain Occam, mikemikev) about the version that MathSci is working on. I share some of everyone's concerns, especially with regard to WP:UNDUE. I also enjoyed MathSci's (only!?) reply to these concerns:

"It's very nice to see wikipedians expressing their personal views, but that's not how wikipedia articles are written. I am continuing to prepare a version of the rest of the history as I've said above."

Charming! Fortunately, one obvious solution, especially if we add back a lot of the material from the version 2 months ago, would be to spin out (and link back to) a Race and Intelligence (History) article. What would be the best name for such an article? David.Kane (talk) 03:20, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The history provides an essential context for the discussion of Jensen, Rushton and Lynn - as NPOV and NOR make clear, providing context is important and we cannot remove it to another article without violating policy. My comment was meant to show Occam, Mike and others constructive ways to collaborate w2ith MathSci. Obviously they are not going to like what he wrote - we are in mediation' that is by definition an attempt to resolve conflicts among editors who do not agree. It is not a poll. We do not take a vote. We seen compromise and to learn how to work together. I have proposed a framework for working together. If they do not like it maybe the mediatior, Ludwigs2 can provide a better framwork. But the task is to learn how to work together. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:08, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Controversial claims treated as facts

The statement in the test scores section states

Racial differences in IQ scores are observed around the world. One meta-analysis estimates East Asians (105), Whites (102), Amerindians (87), Non-Bushmen sub-Saharan Africans . This is primarily based on Lynn's work and Lynn's work has been criticized as unreliable (see IQ and the Wealth of Nations#Criticism). Some disclaimer is required.

The next statement Many MRI volumetric analyses have shown that on average, the brains of people identifying themselves as African-American are 5% smaller than the brains of people identifying themselves as White and 6% smaller than people identifying themselves as Asian.[50] [52]

The average brain volumes (in cm3) are approximately 1,268 (Blacks), 1,362 (Whites), and 1,415 (East Asians).[30]

This is based on Rushton's work which is also controversial. Firstly , most of the data used in Rushton's work is not based on MRI, but on external head measurements and autopsy data. External head measurements are the least reliable for determining brain size. Secondly, the idea of an average head size for a race may be an oversimplification. An average for a heterogeneous sample tends to be less meaningful. There may be an average weight of mammals, but this group includes, elephants, whales and mice. For reptiles it includes lizards and dinosaurs. For Africans it includes the short statured pygmies and tall nilotic peoples. Rushton seems to have used heterogeneous samples to arrive at his averages, so they are somewhat problematic and shouldn't be considered factual. Wapondaponda (talk) 07:50, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

What revisions would make these sections in line with NPOV? Slrubenstein | Talk 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

i concur! by the way, racial theorists are extremely selective when it comes "data". what they forget to mention is that white females, supposedly, have an average brain size that is equivalent to the black male average...there is thus no why brain size can account for the "iq gap". in addition, in the physiology section it is stated that:"studies have reported correlations that range from 0 to 0.6, with most correlations 0.3 or 0.4.[51]". this is just hilarious! the statement doesn't mean anything at all from a statistical point of view. such a huge variation in correlation is most probably due to statistical fluctuations (i.e. lack of statistics) i.e. there is no way to determine what the real "correlation" is as long as there is not enough statistics...

i also want to add that the most annoying aspect of the current version is the omission of the nutrition section (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Race_and_intelligence#Where_did_the_nutrition_section_go.3F). mustihussain 10:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

My default suggestion would be to omit problematic data. An alternative is simply to state that scholars such such as Rushton controversially propose that races differ in average brain size and that these differences are responsible for group differences in average IQ. Wapondaponda (talk) 11:18, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

May I suggest that you edit the article now in line with your second suggestion (that is an uncontroversial edit anyone can make), but raise the first suggestion in a new section on the mediation page? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

err, maybe I should stay out of here, but the purpose of meta-analysis is exactly to determine an estimate of the true effect when various studies report different values. There has been a meta-analysis on brain size and IQ (though not focused on race differences).

Bpesta22 (talk) 03:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Debate overview

I have tried to write a small (probably too small) section about the actual debate outlining the different reasons that the topic is controversial - possibly a little more mention of some of the hereditarian viewpoints could be introduced, as I have mostly been concerned with supplying the different reasons (scientific and political) that some groups have difficulties in swallowing the hereditarian viewpoint. ·Maunus·ƛ· 08:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

"Another development in the social sciences which has influenced the approach to studies of race and intelligence, is the move away from seeing racial categories as biologically defined, instead seeing such categories primarily as social constructions)." What right do sociologists have to make biological claims?

"claims by some scientists working with intelligence, such as Stephen Jay Gould" Gould does not work with intelligence. The man is a joke even in his own field (See Maynard-Smith). mikemikev (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Sociologists don't make biological claims - they claim (correctly) that the biological definitions of concepts such as "race" or "intelligence" are not as straightforward as some would have it because they are in fact to a large extent socially rather than biologically defined. This is relevant because it is a huge part of the reason that there is even a debate abvout this issue. If the reader does not understand that there is disagreement between scientists who see race and intelligence as basically biologically defined concepts and those who see them as basically socially defined then she won't have a chance of understanding what the disagreement is all about. Stephgen Gould is not universally seen as a bad scientist and frankly your opinion (and Maynard Smiths) on that matter is irrelevant in this context - Gould is not mentioned as an example of an authority but exactly as a person who has a opinion on the nature of intelligence that is outside of the mainstream just like Howard Gardner - you should try to read sentences in context instead of just seeing red flags whenever a pet peeve of yours is mentioned. The reason why it is relevant to mention that some people have opinions about the nature of intelligence that are not mainstream is to SHOW the reader that there is a plethora of viewpoints BOTH about race and about intelligence and that THIS is a big part of the reason that there is no general consensus about how best to explain the race gap.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

You still do not get even the most basic principle of Wikipedia editing, do you mike? This is not the place to push your own point of view. What Maunus and Mathsci are doing is summarizing material already published in reliable secondary sources. It does not matter whether any of us agrees with or likes what they say. I think many more evolutionary scientists have heard of Gould than of Maynard-Smith. And while Maynard-Smith was a perfectly credible scientist, so was Gould. Scientists disagree all the time - it is the whole point of science. But they can do so while respecting one another's contributions to science. That you are not capable of this just shows your ignorance of science (or that you are a crappy scientist). By what right do sociologists make biological claims? Well, by wwhat write do biologists make sociological claims? The fact is, there is a branch of sociology of science in which sciologists study scientists, scientifically. But that is not what Maunus is referring to or talking about. Apparently you do not understand even this simple sentence. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Queston about reference

The article says, "Racial differences in IQ scores are observed around the world." The reference provided says "We should accept, then, without further ado that there is a difference in average IQ between blacks and white." This quote from mackintosh does not use the term "worldwide" or "around the world." Unless David or someone can fix it (make it clear that this is what the source says) I will have to remove the statement. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Numbers do not speak for themselves

They do not, David.

If these numbers come from someone's research i.e. a peer-reviewed journal article or a book by a professional scholar, then you have to summarize the conclusions reached by the researchers i.e. is this significant, insignificant or what? This is an NPOV issue, NPOV compliance in part requires us to provide context, so this illustrates the NPOV problems with your edits. If there is only one view about the meaning of these numbers, provide the one view and make it clear whose view it is. If there are two views, provide the two views. And so on.

If you do not add this important invormation I will restore the edit you deleted. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:47, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree, I was about to post that myself. It is completely impossible for someone who is not part of the debate to know whether a range of 0.4 - 0.7 is statistically significant or not.·Maunus·ƛ· 13:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Maunus: Without reading the study in question, how do you "know whether a range of 0.4 - 0.7 is statistically significant?" I believe that the cited study claims, correctly, statistical significance. David.Kane (talk) 19:39, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

But then that ought to be spelled out for statistics illiterates like myself.·Maunus·ƛ· 05:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

that the correlations found in different papers range from 0 to 0.6 (as mentioned in the text) don't mean anything at all! 0 correlation means that there *no* linear dependency between the parameters studied i.e. the covariance is zero. if the correlation between two parameters (e.g. iq and brain size) is zero, we can *not* predict the value of iq by looking at the corresponding brain size, and vice versa. a correlation of 0.6 might, *perhaps*, yield *some* predictive powers but not significantly (in my field of science we look for correlations that are at least 0.95 or more before we make any conclusions). secondly, if the correlation really ranges between 0 to 0.6 then we are dealing, most probably, with chance correlations, and this means that there is not enough data. the study is inconclusive. thirdly, a *strong* correlation does *not* mean that there is a *direct* causality between the parameters. in order to verify that you need to do simulations and calculate how probable the correlation in question really is....! mustihussain 20:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Just for information's sake, in social science research, correlations in the .4 to .7 range are considered very good. this is because in social scientific research it is impossible to control for all significant variables (short of kidnapping children at birth and raising them in identically structured home environments), so any number of uncontrolled non-random factors have to be accounted for in the random models used. --Ludwigs2 21:33, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

0.4 is considered very good???? lolzzzzz, i didn't know that! no wonder social sciences are in such a mess :-) anyway, the given range (0 to 0.6) is still strange. 0 correlation means we can not predict anything, while with a correlation of 0.6 we can predict, according to what you said, "very good". now, what does this mean? can we predict the iq by looking at brain sizes, yes or no? can we predict poorly, rather good, good, or very good? take your pick. as i said before, the study is inconclusive, and correlation does *not* necessarily mean causation. mustihussain 21:45, 11 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mustihussain (talk • contribs)

Mustihussain - spoken like a true lay-person. correlations are not some 'magic number' that have meaning irrespective of context. scientists can abuse material objects in a way that they cannot abuse human beings (short of Nazi concentration camps, that is - I hear Mengele got some very high correlation numbers), and within those constraints .4 is acceptable and .6 starts to look pretty good. as someone once said "it isn't the hard sciences vs the soft sciences - science is science. it's actually the hard sciences vs the easy sciences." testing a rock is easy, testing a person is hard. --Ludwigs2 23:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

what are you talking about? i am totally aware of the fact that correlations are not some magic numbers. as i said: correlation does not necessarily mean causation (hence the need for strict requirements), and you need to figure out how probable the correlation in question really is. but if 0.4 is acceptable then what is left? if we forget about c = 0 (which means no correlation at all), and everything above 0.3 is acceptable, you are left with 0.1 < c < 0.3....speaking frankly: it seems social scientists can prove anything they want! however, it does not change the fact that the text mentions a range from 0 to 0.6 i.e. from non-correlation to "acceptable" correlation. so the answer to the question "can we predict the iq by measuring brain sizes?" is : some studies say yes and other say no! this is not science. this is "stamp collecting" !mustihussain 01:14, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

btw, what are the chance probabilities for the correlations found? mustihussain 01:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

We have proven one thing, numbers do not speak for themselves, which was the reason David Kane gave for reverting an edit. Since David Kane's reason was wrong, I will restore what was deleted. If David Kane thinks the edit is incorrect, he is fre to correct it, but we need an explanation of whether or not the correlation is significant. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:58, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Captain thinks the edit is origina; research. Since numbers don't speak for themselves, it is irresponsible to include this data without any context at all, and it violates policy. I have removed it - here it is:

Within human populations, studies have been conducted to determine whether there is a relationship between brain size and a number of cognitive measures. Studies have reported correlations that range from 0 to 0.6, with most correlations 0.3 or 0.4.

Until the proper contxt can be added and we can return it to the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, we agreed several months ago to use a data-centric approach. You agreed to this yourself. Per our agreement about this, leaving the data out entirely is not an option.

One other thing we established in mediation is that data itself is not POV. You can find the 0.4 correlation mentioned by Flynn, Neisser, and Nisbett in addition to Jensen and Rushton. None of them dispute this data; the only thing they dispute is what it means in terms of the cause of the IQ difference. I don't think there's anything wrong with presenting a statistical fact, which is acknowledged by both sides of the debate, without any commentary like this; and neither did any of the other users who approved of adding this data. If you do, can you please explain specifically what additional context is required in order to present this data? --Captain Occam (talk) 22:31, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Because policy requires it. We can't just take facts out of context. And because it would make the article better - in what way would it not? The "data centric" approach simply means that we present the data on between group differences in IQ scores up front as a way of raising the question. But for ANY interpretation or explanation, we must provide the context, not just the data. Otherwise it cannot go into the article. Simple policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:25, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

David kane HAS the source, it should be a piece of cake for him to add the relevant information in. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I asked you to be specific. What exactly do you mean by “context” in this case? The sentence you removed already mentions that a wide range of different correlations have been found in studies about brain size and IQ, so there’s no danger that readers will think 0.4 is the only result ever obtained by these studies. Everyone else who approves of this section apparently thinks that’s sufficient context for this data, so if you think additional context information is necessary here, you need to be specific about what else needs to be added.

Since you’re the person who isn’t satisfied with the content that consensus has produced here, you need to make a specific proposal about what needs to be changed about it. It isn’t helpful to just say that you won’t accept the consensus version, while not offering any specific proposals about how to improve it. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

What "consensus version?" David Kane wrote it, during his own overhaul, and then invited editors to be bold. Will you please provide a link to th section on the mediation talk page where parties to mediation crafted this passage and agreed to it by consensus? Please back up your bluster with this one fact.

In the meantime, I am not the only person who has trouble with this, Maunus and Mustihussein, as well as the anonymous editor, have trouble with this, so that is four people. And this entire discussion makes it explicilty clear what context we are asking for. Template:Nono Slrubenstein | Talk 01:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Mustihussein: You should research the concept of effect size as it applies to a correlation co-efficient. In employment selection, for example, a correlation of .30 is typical, with .50 (coincidentally, the value for IQ predicting job performance) having tremendous utility. See also Taylor Russell tables for an example of what a measly (r = .30) correlation can do to improve prediction accuracy assuming optimal base and selection rates.Bpesta22 (talk) 03:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think "fact driven" means presenting numbers without comment. That would be especially unhealthy in a case like this where there are several possible views espoused by different scholars on each set of facts. I think the right way would be to present the facts (at least those facts that are not disputed) AND then present any notable interpretations published of those facts. That means that if we Witelson, BEresh and Kigar draw any conclusions about those numnbers we should add it and attribute it to them - if other authors criticise this conclusion we should add that and attribute the criticism to them. Now if the data is in fact concluded to be inconclusive by the authors of the study I think that maybe it is more relevant to have that conclusion than having the numbers, as they simply risk being confusing.·Maunus·ƛ· 05:32, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

This was discussed here. The original proposed addition was from TechnoFaye, and several users raised problems with it. Ludwig and Mikemikev modified the draft in order to address those problems, and after that the users who’d originally had problems with it appeared not to anymore. They didn’t specifically say that they approved of the new version, but since their initial problems with it had been fixed, and they didn’t raise any new objections when Mikemikev specifically asked if anyone had any, I think it’s reasonable to assume that nobody minded this content until now.

Maunus, it sounds like what you’re saying needs to be added in terms of context is some information about how various researchers interpret this data. I’m fine with adding that—I think it would be helpful to mention how this data is interpreted by Neisser and Nisbett on the one hand, and Jensen and Rushton on the other. More generally, I’m fine with the idea of adding more context, as long as I can understand exactly what it is that needs to be added and it’s being cited properly. Would you consider describing the views of these researchers about this data to be a satisfactory solution in this respect? --Captain Occam (talk) 06:57, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Certainly!·Maunus·ƛ· 10:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

THis is pretty much all I have been askng for, and I assume that it can be found in the source that the data comes from (i.e. the original researchers), so it should not be hard to add. If Neisser, Nisbett, Jenson and Rushton cite it, it would certainly enhance the article to know how they use the data and whether they all agree ti the way it be used. Again, I think that would enhance the article a good dealt. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

All right, as long as nobody else has a problem with this, sometime soon I’ll put the sentence you removed back in the article along with additional information about how the people I mentioned interpret this data. If there’s anyone who has a problem with this idea, now’s the time to mention it. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

That would be great, Captain Occam - I appreciate it and it will make for a stronger article. Just put what Witelson, Beresh and Kigar say, before discussing how others have used the data. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it is a good sign that it was so easy (!?) for us to come to agreement on this. I have added back the citation and will try to find a copy and then provide it so all may consult. Again, I did not write this sentence and I did not check the citation. I was just doing what people told me to! David.Kane (talk) 12:25, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Whoops! Was not paying attention and did not see that Occam promised to do this. Anyway, I am pressing on. Article is available here [11] for all (I think). David.Kane (talk) 12:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, the source clearly support the claim. "Numerous studies relating measures of brain size such as brain weight, head circumference, CT or MRI brain volume to different intelligence test measures, with variously defined samples of subjects have yielded inconsistent findings with correlations from 0 to 0.6, with most correlations 0.3 or 0.4." In fact, it looks like we have some copying/pasting going on. (Not by me!). David.Kane (talk) 13:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

thank you david for finding the quotation in question! the magic word in the quotation is *inconsistent*. the synonyms of "inconsistent" are: incompatible, uncertain, incoherent, dissonant and incongruous. in other words, the findings are incompatible, uncertain, incoherent, dissonant and incongruous!mustihussain 14:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

David, I agree that Neisser’s view about this ought to be mentioned, but I think for NPOV reasons we ought to present the other views about this data also. There are two others: one is Jensen and Rushton’s, and the other is Leonard Lieberman’s, who agrees that the difference in brain size between human groups is genetic but thinks that it should be viewed in terms of biogeographical ancestry rather than “race”. I’ll edit this paragraph to include these alternative views also; if anyone has a problem with me changing this, please discuss it here. --Captain Occam (talk) 21:46, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

History section as proposed by Mathsci

In the late nineteenth and early twentieth century, group differences in intelligence were assumed to be due to race and, apart from intelligence tests, research relied on measurements such as brain size or reaction times. By the mid-1930s most psychologists had adopted the view that environmental and cultural factors played a dominant role. In 1969 the educational psychologist Arthur Jensen published a long article reviving the older hereditarian point of view, with the suggestion that eugenics was more likely to increase the average intelligence in the US than remedial education for blacks. His work, publicized by the Nobel laureate William Shockley, sparked controversy amongst the academic community and even led to student unrest. A similar debate amongst academics followed the publication in 1994 of The Bell Curve, a book by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray reviving the hereditarian viewpoint once more. It provoked not only the publication of several interdisciplinary books on the environmental point of view, some in popular science, but also to a public statement from the American Psychological Association acknowledging a gap between average IQ scores of whites and blacks as well as the absence of any adequate explanatation of it, either environmental or genetic. The hereditarian line of research continues to be pursued by a group of psychologists, some of whom are supported by the Pioneer Fund.

Early history

The idea that there are differences in the brain structures/sizes of different racial groups, and that these differences explain varying rates of intelligence, was widely held and studied during the 19th and early 20th centuries. Francis Galton spurred interest in the study of mental abilities, particularly as they relate to heredity and eugenics. Beginning in the 1930s, race difference research and hereditarianism—the belief that genetics are an important cause of differences in intelligence among human groups—began to fall out of favor in psychology and anthropology after major internal debates.

In !895 R.Meade Bache, University of Pennsylvania, published an article in Psychological Review concerning the reaction times of three population groups in the USA, with in decreasing order of speed, Native Amricans, African Americans and whites. He explained the slowness of the whites by the fact that their brains were more contemplative and did not function well on primitive tasks. This was one of the first examples of scientific racism, in which science is used to bolster beliefs in the superiority of a particular race.

In 1912 the Columbia psychology graduate Frank Bruner reviewed the scientific literature on auditory perception in black and white subjects in Psychological Bulletin, characterizing, "the mental qualities of the Negro as: lacking in filial affection, strong migratory instincts and tendencies; little sense of verneration, integrity or honor; shiftless, indolent, untidy, improvident, extravagant, lazy, untruthful, lacking in persistence and initiative and unwilling to work continuously at details. Indeed, experience with the Negro in classrooms indicates that it is impossible to get the child to do anything with continued accuracy, and similarly in industrial pursuits, the Negro shows a woeful lack of powere of sustained activity and constructive conduct."

In 1916 George O. Ferguson conducted research in his Columbia Ph.D. thesis on "The psychology of the Negro", finding them poor in abstract thought, but good in physical responses, recommending how this should be reflected in education.

In 1916 Lewis Terman, in the manual accompanying the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Test, referred to the higher frequency of morons among non-white American racial groups stating that further research into race difference on intelligence should be conducted and that the "enormously significant racial differences in general intelligence" could not be remedied by education.

In the 1920's psychologists started questioning underlying assumptions of racial differences in intelligence; although not discounting them, the possibility was considered that they were on a smaller scale than previously supposed and also due to factors other than heredity. In 1924 Floyd Allport wrote in his book "Social Psychology" that the French sociologist Gustave Le Bon was incorrect in asserting "a gap between inferior and superior species" and pointed to "social inheritance" and "environmental factors" as factors that accounted for differences. Nevertheless he conceded that "the intelligence of the white race is of a more versatile and complex order than that of the black race. It is probably superior to that of the red or yellow races."

In 1929 Robert Woodworth in his textbook on psychology made no claims about innate differences in intelligence between races, pointing instead to environmental and cultural factors. He considered it advisable to "suspend judgement and keep our eyes open from year to year for fresh and more conclusive evidence that will probably be discovered".

In 1935 Otto Klineberg wrote two books "Negro Intelligence and Selective Migration" and "Race Differences", dismissing claims that African Americans in the northern states were more intelligent than those in the south. He concluded that there was no scientific proof of racial differences in intelligence and that this should not therefore be used as a justification for policies in education or employment. In the 1940s many psychologists, particularly social psychologists, conceded that enviromental and cultural factors, as well as discrimination and prejudice, provided a more probable explanation of disparities in intelligence. According to Franz Samelson's analysis in 1978, this change in attitude had become widespread by then, with very few studies in race differences in intelligence, a change brought out by an increase in the number of psychologists not from a "lily-white ... Anglo-Saxon" background but from Jewish backgrounds. Other factors that influenced American psychologists were the Nazi claims of a master race and the economic changes brought about by the depression.

1960-1980

In 1965 William Shockley, Nobel laureate in physics and professor at Stanford University, made a public statement at the Nobel conference on "Genetics and the Future of Man" about the problems of "genetic deteriotaion" in humans caused by "evolution in reverse", in contrast to the capacity for social management and organisation of early American settlers. Speaking of the "genetic enslavement" of African Americans, owing to an abnormally high birth rate, Shockley discouraged improved education as a remedy, suggesting instead sterilisation and birth control. In the following ten years he continued to justify discrimination scientifically, claiming it was not based E.O.on prejudice but "on sound statistics". Shockley's outspoken public statements and lobbying brought him into contact with those running the Pioneer Fund who subsequently provided financial support though the intermediaru Carleton Putnam for his extensive lobbying activities against equality for blacks, reported widely in the press. The Pioneer Fund had been set up by W.P. Draper in 1937 with one of its two charitable purposes being to provide aid for "study and research into the problems of heredity and eugenics in the human race ... and ... into the problems of race betterment with special reference to the people of the United States".

The most significant of Shockley's lobbying campaigns involved the educational psychologist, Arthur Jensen, from the University of California, Berkeley. Although earlier in his career Jensen had favoured environmental rather than genetic factors as the explanation of race differences in intelligence, he had changed his mind following extended discussions with Shockkley during the year 1966-1967 spent at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences in Stanford.

In 1969 Jensen wrote a long and outspoken article in the Harvard Educational Review, "How Much can We Boost IQ and Achievement", arguing that racial minorities, because of genetic limitations in intelligence, should be taught, not through conceptual explanations, but instead by relying on their ability to associate rather than understand, i.e. learning by rote. He decried the "misguided and ineffective attempts to improve [the] lot" of blacks which would only result in "genetic enslavement" unless "eugenic foresight" was brought into play, i.e. population control. In this article Jensen revived the standard hereditarian claims. Shockley conducted a widespread publicity campaign for Jensen's article, supported by the Pioneer Fund. Jensen's views becoming widely known in many spheres. As a result there was renewed academic interest in the hereditarian viewpoint and in intelligence tests. Jensen's original article was widely circulated and often cited; the material was taught in university courses over a range of academic disciplines. In response to his critics, Jensen wrote a series of books on all aspects of psychometry. There was also a widespread positive response from the popular press — with the New York Times Magazine dubbing the topic "Jensenism" — and amongst politicians and policy makers.

In 1971 Richard Herrnstein wrote a long article on intelligence tests in The Atlantic for a general readership. Undecided on the issues of race and intelligence, he discussed instead score differences between social classes. Like Jensen he took a firmly hereditarian point of view. He also commented that the policy of equal opportunity would result in rigidification of social classes, separated by biological differences, resulting in a downward trend in average intelligence that would conflict with the growing needs of a technological society.

Jensen and Herrnstein's articles were widely discussed. Hans Eysenck defended the hereditarian point of view and the use of intelligence tests in "Race, Intelligence and Education" (1971), a pamphlet presenting Jensenism to a popular audience, and "The Equality of Man" (1973). He was severely critical of environmentalists whose policies he blamed for many of the problems in society. In the first book he wrote that, "All the evidence to date suggests the strong and indeed overwhelming importance of genetic factors in producing the great variety of intellectual differences which [are] observed between certain racial groups", adding in the second, that "for anyone wishing to perpetuate class or caste differences, genetics is the real foe".

Although the main intention of the hereditarians had been to challenge the environmentalist establishment, they were unprepared for the level of reaction and censure in the scientific world. Militant student groups at Berkeley and Harvard conducted disruptive campaigns of harassment on Jensen and Herrnstein with charges of racism, despite Herrnstein's refusal to endorse Jensen's views on race and intelligence. Similar campaigns were waged in London against Eysenck and in Boston against Edward Wilson, the founding father of sociobiology, the discipline that explains human behaviour through genetics. The attacks on Wilson were orchestrated by the Sociobiology Study Group, part of the radical organisation Science for the People, formed of 35 scientists and students, including the Harvard biologists Stephen J. Gould and Richard Lewontin, who both became prominent critics of hereditarian research in race and intelligence.

This disruption was accompanied by a high level of commentaries, criticisms and denouncements from the academic community. Two issues of the Harvard Educational Review were devoted to critiques of Jensen's work by psychologists, biologists and educationalists. Broadly there were five criticisms:

• Inadequate understanding of population genetics. Richard Lewontin pointed out that heritability estimates depend on the specific group and their environment, i.e. that a distinction has to be drawn between heritability within groups and between groups. Many other scientists made the same point, including Stephen J. Gould, Walter Bodmer, Gerald Dworkin and Ned Block. Luigi Cavalli-Sforza and Walter Bodmer questioned Jensen's use of socio-economic status as a method of controlling environment. Jensen's inference of racial IQ differences from class differences was criticized by Sandra Scarr-Salatapek.
• Overestimation of the heritidary component of IQ scores. Mary Jo Bane and Christopher Jencks suggested that an estimate of 45% was more realistic than Jensen's figure of 80%. Leon Kamin queried Jensen's reliance on the twin studies of Cyril Burt. Critics were in agreement that the expression of a gene depended strongly on environment and hence so would the development of intelligence.
• Unjustitied assumption that IQ scores are a good measure of intelligence. Multiple problems were brought up by critics, including the difficulty in defining intelligence, the form of the tests, acquired ability in doing tests, the variations in IQ during a lifetime and the difficulties in administering tests to minority or disadvantaged children.
• Unjustified sociological assumptions in relating IQ to occupation. Bane and Jencks queried correlating IQ with social status.
• Political criticism and insults from a broad spectrum of scientists. Many critics questioned Jensen's motives and whether his work was an appropriate use of public research funds. The Association of Black Psychologists asserted that this kind of use of IQ tests could result in "Black genocide".

1980-present

In the 1980s, the New Zealand psychologist James Flynn started a study of group differences in intelligence in their own terms. His research led him to the discovery of what is now called the Flynn effect: he observed empirically a gradual increase in average IQ scores over the years over all groups tested. His discovery was confirmed later by many other studies. Flynn concluded in 1987 that "IQ tests do not measure intelligence but rather a correlate with a weak causal link to intelligence".

In 1994 the debate on race and intelligence was reignited by the publication of the book The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. The book was received positively by the media, with prominent coverage in Newsweek, Time, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Although only two chapters of the book were devoted to race differences in intelligence, treated from the same hereditarian standpoint as Jensen's 1969 paper, it neverthless caused a similar furore in the academic community to Jensen's article. Many critics, including Stephen J. Gould and Leonard Kamin, pointed out flaws in the analsysis and unwarranted simplifications. These criticisms were subsequently presented in books, most notably The Bell Curve Debate (1995), Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth (1996) and an expanded edition of Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1996). In reponse to the debate, the American Psychological Association set up a ten-man taskforce, chaired by Ulrich Neisser, to report on the book and its findings. In its report, published in February 1996, the committee made the following comments on race differences in intelligence:

African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests. In recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably. It is possible that the IQ-score differential is narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established. The cause of that differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves. The Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally-based explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available.

From the 1980s onwards, the Pioneer Group continued to fund hereditarian research on race and intelligence, in particular the two English-born psychologists Richard Lynn of the University of Ulster and J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario, its president since 2002. Rushton returned to the cranial measurements of the nineteenth century, using brain size as an extra factor determining intelligence; in collaboration with Jensen, he most recently developed updated arguments for the genetic explanation of race differences in intelligence. Lynn, long time editor of and contributor to Mankind Quarterly and a prolific writer of books, has concentrated his research in race and intelligence on gathering and tabulating data about race differences in intelligence across the world. He has also made suggestions about its political implications, including the revival of older theories of eugenics, which he describes as "the truth that dares not speak its name".

Comments on Mathsci's history

Thanks to MathSci for taking the time to write this history. Feel free to use this section to make comments. Here are some of mine:

• This history is long and detailed. Nothing wrong with that. But if it gets too long relative to the rest of the article, it will need to become its own article.
• Footnote 8 is missing a title. I assume it is a book which summarizes the "Two issues of the Harvard Educational Review" mentioned. Or is it a reprint of those issues.
• Footnote 10 mentions "Pearson Education". Is that the title of the book?
• This is a general question about how general footnotes and formmating work. You cite Mackintosh, N.J. (1998), IQ and Human Intelligence, Oxford University Press, p. 148, ISBN 019852367X as footnote 11. Mackintosh's book is already included in the article. How do we handle a case in which one footnote just mentions the book in general and one cites a specific page from that book? In my editing, I try to ensure that the whole book is given as early as possible. Then, I do something like "Mackintosh (1998), page 150.", as in footnote 20 of the current article. Is there some cooler way to handle this issue?
• "The most significant of Shockley's campaigns" does not make sense to me. Shockley was campaigning, like a politician running for office or a general on the march?
• Is your paragraph about Jensen's 1969 article based on the article itself or on a description of the article?

More later. In summary, although I have some concerns with numerous small items, I have no objection to including this in the article (or sub-article) and then editing it in place. I look forward to reading other comments. David.Kane (talk) 19:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

My comments on Mathsci's proposal:

Like the history section that you proposed on the mediation page, this is heavily slanted against the hereditarian perspective, and I would oppose it being added to the article for that reason. It’s too long for me to provide a complete list of examples of this, so I’ll just go with what’s in the last paragraph: why is it relevant to mention that Lynn and Rushton have written articles for American Renaissance? They’ve also written articles for numerous peer-reviewed journals, but none of those are mentioned here; only American Renaissance is. This is equivalent to, when providing a brief description of president Obama, mentioning his connections to Jeremiah Wright and nothing else.

I think it’s obvious that the reason why American Renaissance is the only publication mentioned here is because it’s the best way to make Rushton and Lynn look bad. If you’re going to cherry-pick facts like this based on whether they support the perspective that you’d like to get across, you shouldn’t expect your proposed contributions to make their way into the article. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:49, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't the article actually use many other articles by Rushton and Lynn as sources? Doesn't that mean the article is already calling attention to those publications? Slrubenstein | Talk 23:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Come on, do you really think that citing an article by an author in a particular publication is the same as mentioning in the body of the article that they’ve written articles for it? This is so obvious that I don’t think it needs to be explained. --Captain Occam (talk) 23:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

(edit-conflict)

@ David.Kane. Thanks for noting the slips. For refs. tthe recommended wikipedia method is via harvnb and harvtxt so that notes point to references. (See for exmaple Handel concerti grossi Op.6 for how this is done.)

@ Captain Occam. That's what the book by Tucker says about American Renaissance, so that's what I wrote. It's on page 139 here and again in much greater detail on page 182. American Renaissance receives funding from the Pioneer Fund according to that source. Rushton happens to be president of the Pioneer Fund and Lynn happens to be a member of the board (postcript, page 214). Note that Mankind Quarterly, also funded by the Pioneer Fund and edited by Lynn, is described in the same source as a "notorious journal of `racial history'"; and as a "racist journal" in this source:

• Arvidsson, Stefan (2006), Aryan idols: Indo-European mythology as ideology and science, University of Chicago Press, p. 402, ISBN 0226028607 {{citation}}: Check |authorlink= value (help)

Mathsci (talk) 00:48, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci, it doesn’t matter whether there are sources which emphasize this. There are also sources which emphasize Obama’s connection to Jeremiah Wright; that doesn’t mean when mentioning him in an article we should describe him in this way also. Not all sources are NPOV, particularly on the topic of race and intelligence, and when we’re using a source that isn’t we need to make sure we describe the topic neutrally even if some of our sources don’t.

This is pretty basic. I know you would agree that even if we’re going to use Jensen’s & Rushton’s Thirty Years of Research on Race Differences in Cognitive Ability as a reference for some parts of the article, not everything in that paper deserves to be mentioned in the article, because to do so would go against NPOV policy. The same principle applies here also. --Captain Occam (talk) 06:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

<---I can't see any relation between this material and Obama related articles. Please could you explain yourself? The secondary sources listed below are academic books written by established academics, most of them experts in the history of psychology. You must provide much stronger arguments for rejecting these impeccable sources. It is also true Rushton and Lynn are on the board of the Pioneer Fund, which funds their research and Jensen's, and this fund is connected with American Renaissance and Mankind Quarterly, as explained in Tucker (2002). Here are the sources I used for the material I added:

1. Benjamin, Ludy T. (2006), Brief History of Modern Psychology, Wiley-Blackwell, pp. 188-191, ISBN 140513206X
2. Tucker, William H. (2002), The Funding of Scientific Racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund, University of Illinois Press, pp. 43, 180-181, ISBN 0252027620
3. Lynn, Richard (2001), The science of human diversity: a history of the Pioneer Fund, University Press of America, ISBN 076182040X
4. Tucker, William (2002), The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund, University of Illinois Press, ISBN 0252027620
5. Wooldridge, Adrian (1995), Measuring the Mind: Education and Psychology in England c.1860-c.1990, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0521395151
6. Richards, Graham (1997), Race, racism, and psychology: towards a reflexive history, Routledge, p. 279, ISBN 0415101417
7. Maltby, John; Day; Macaskill, Ann (2007), Personality, Individual Differences and Intelligence, Pearson Education, p. 302, ISBN 0131297600
8. Mackintosh, N.J. (1998), IQ and Human Intelligence, Oxford University Press, p. 148, ISBN 019852367X
9. Maltby, John; Day; Macaskill, Ann (2007), Personality, Individual Differences and Intelligence, Pearson Education, pp. 334-347, ISBN 0131297600
10. Hothersall, David (2003), History of Psychology (4th ed.), McGraw-Hill, pp. 440-441, ISBN 0072849657
11. Neisser, U., Boodoo, G., Bouchard, T. J. Jr., Boykin, A. W., Brody, N., Ceci, S. J. et al. (1996), "Intelligence: Knowns and unknowns", American Psychologist 51: 77–101, http://www.psych.illinois.edu/~broberts/Neisser%20et%20al,%201996,%20intelligence.pdf
12. Tucker, William (2002), The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund, University of Illinois Press, ISBN 0252027620
13. Richards, Graham (1997), Race, Racism and Psychology: Towards a Reflex ..., Routledge, ISBN 0415101409
14. Richardson, Angélique (2003), Love and eugenics in the late nineteenth century: rational reproduction and the new woman, Oxford University Press, p. 226, ISBN 0198187009

Mathsci (talk) 07:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

(undent) You don't seem to have provided a specific change you'd like made to his proposed text so that it could be neutral. Please provide a specific change to the proposed text you would like to discuss. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 06:46, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I think this proposed revision is too long for us to handle everything about it at once. Mathsci hasn’t yet demonstrated that he’s willing to change this at all, and he also hasn’t answered any of David.Kane’s questions yet. If he does, then we can move on to other, more specific advice. But I don’t think there’s any point in getting into this even before we know whether Mathsci is willing to compromise about it at all. --Captain Occam (talk) 07:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

So, you alledge that "Mathsci hasn’t yet demonstrated that he’s willing to change this at all, and he also hasn’t answered any of David.Kane’s questions yet." However, if you review the actual facts, Mathsci made all of the changes DK requested - here and here. Now, moving on, what do you want changed in the proposed history section. Be specific. Hipocrite (talk) 07:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't there a comment above thanking David.Kane for his comments and did I not implement them? At this stage I think Hipocrite was premature in inserting the material. He certainly didn't ask me. The addition of the short summary at the beginning was one bonus that came out of this revert war. I intend to slightly shorten the content, but that will take time. Editors should give a careful explanation of what's wrong with these secondary sources. I'm quite willing to listen. Have I made some dreadful mistake with University of Illinois Press, Oxford University Press and Cambridge University Press? Mathsci (talk) 07:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite, the two diffs you posted are just Mathsci fixing typos and Wikifying names of people who have articles about them. Those aren’t the sorts of changes I’m talking about. I’m talking about content-related suggestions, and Mathsci’s reply here seems to indicate that I shouldn’t expect him to understand the point I’m making about this enough to reach a compromise about it.

I really can’t make this any clearer. The only relevance that American Renaissance has to this article is that people (i.e. Tucker) bring it up in order to attack Rushton, the same way they bring up Jeremiah Wright in order to attack Obama. Tucker is a reliable source, but NPOV policy requires that we do more than just repeating whatever we can find in reliable sources. (And the same is true in the opposite cases—Jensen & Rushton 2005 is a reliable source also, but we shouldn’t repeat everything we can find in it, either.) If you really don’t understand this, and aren’t willing to compromise about it, then that means we won’t be able to obtain consensus about this revision and it won’t be going in the article. --Captain Occam (talk) 07:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Where has Rushton been attacked in what I write? Please explain why the material in Tucker's book breaks WP:NPOV a little more carefully. Your comments about Obama should probably be redacted - believe it or not I have no idea what they mean, Have you read any of the book by Tucker? Most of it can be read on amazon.com if you've recently purchased a book. I have barely started to polish up the history section by the way and any constructive suggestions are welcome. Mathsci (talk) 07:44, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

American Renaissance is a white nationalist magazine. It’s a political magazine, not a scientific one. Apart from its connections to Rushton and Lynn, it has nothing to do with the scientific debate over race and intelligence. So why is it being mentioned, when we aren’t mentioning any of the scientific publications for which Rushton has written and which are considerably more relevant to this topic? As far as I can tell, the reason why American Renaissance is being singled out among the dozen or so other publications that could be mentioned is because it’s the one that the greatest number of people are likely to have a problem with. Tucker is bringing it up in order to make a point—that Rushton has “connections” to a white nationalist organization, just like conservatives bring up Wright in order to show that Obama has “connections” to an anti-white pastor.

In both cases, mentioning this is POV. Digging up and mentioning a person’s most controversial connections, particularly to the exclusion of more relevant information, is how one goes about conducting a smear campaign, and as such it isn’t something we should be including in the article.

If you still don’t understand this, there’s nothing I can do to explain it any more clearly. But as David.Kane pointed out here, there are several other users who have similar problems with this section. So if you can’t understand or change any of the problems we’ve raised with it, you probably shouldn’t expect to be able to obtain consensus to include it in the article. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is your explanation of American Renaissance relevant here? Here are screenshots of three of the pages in Tucker's 2002 book which mention American Renaissance that I used [12], [13] and [14], so you can see the originals. History does seem to be involved with ethics and Tucker carefully shows the links between the various organisations run by the Pioneer Fund, Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't both Rushton and Lynn contributed many articles to AR? Again I have no idea who Jeremiah Wright is or why you're mentioning him. Rushton and Lynn appear to be running the Pioneer Fund, which pays their salaries and finances their research - that's in the postscript to Tucker. Where is the smear campaign? Is it in Tucker, perhaps, on one of the screenshots? Mathsci (talk) 08:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

All right, I’m not able to believe anymore that you don’t understand me about this. WP:AGF has limits, as you can see from the fact that you’d already reached this limit with several other users before reaching it with me. As far as I’m concerned you’re just filibustering here; repeating yourself endlessly without even attempting to respond to any of my points.

It’s fine with me if you want to do that, but you should keep in mind what David.Kane has pointed out about your proposal: that there are at least five different users have a problem with it. If you were willing to compromise about this section, then it might be possible to put it in the article in modified form. But as long as you aren’t, we won’t be able to reach a consensus about it so it won’t get added to the article at all. --Captain Occam (talk) 09:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

<- Bpesta22 liked the last segment that we're talking about, so I don't quite know what you mean. I don't particularly mind one way or the other whether we include Tucker's phrase on American Renaissance. Certainly in the 3 days I spent preparing this material, there were far more difficult things to handle - for example potential secondary sources that I could not access through any of my 3 university accounts. So dropping American Renaissance (even if properly sourced) is no big deal to me. It's certainly not something I'm going to waste any time over. It took more time to write Christopher Jencks: I still haven't worked out when he was born, but I am hopeful. Mathsci (talk) 09:35, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Dropped. Mathsci (talk) 09:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci, I have many criticisms of your history. But the fact that it's about 5 times too long is the most egregious. It overwhelms the current state of the art, which should form the meat of the article. Why don't you just suggest modifications to David's history? mikemikev (talk) 10:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest this: That matchsci write a separate History of the race and intelligence controversy into which he puts his entire, well sourced, history, and then from that creates a condensed summary to put in this article with a link to the main article. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:22, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

To my mind, the history section should be as long as it needs to be to adequately cover the material, so length is not too much of a concern at this point (at least until we assess what can safely be removed for brevity). Mathsci is good at things like this, and I think we should give him a chance to flesh it out properly. If the section becomes overly-long by necessity, we can always open a discussion about creating a content fork for it. or we can follow Slr's approach, start with a content fork, and then discuss whether it is sufficiently small to justify reintegrating it into this article. --Ludwigs2 17:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Terminology to Use? Hereditarians and ???

We seem to have agreed that the word "hereditarians" is a useful work when referring to the generic position of folks like Jensen, Lynn, Rushton, et al. Of course, these scientists disagree with each other and, when they do, we need to be clear about who says what. But it is still useful to have a single term for referring to them. So, what is the generic term for folks like Nesbitt, Flynn, et al? I am flexible about what we pick, I just want a term to use. It makes the writing much easier! Options include "anti-hereditarians" or "environmentalists". Jensen/Rushton is "culture-only proponents." What should we use? David.Kane (talk) 20:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

How do Nesbitt and Flynn describe their position? The convention should be (1) how do they describe themselves (2) how others describe them, but making it clear that this is how others describe them and not themselves. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Massive revert - why

Reviewing the changes to the article, the talk page, and the "mediation" page, it is patently clear that most of the changes made to this article over the past 15 days were not discussed anywhere, that no consensus was reached, and that the process of making the edits had no transparency. I'm not wedded to any side in this ridiculous debate, but if one side is "winning" and the other side is "losing," by rule of some mediator, then the meditation didn't reach a conclusion, it reached a not-conclusion, and the mediator should be sanctioned and prevented from further mucking about. If some changes had broad consensus, then reinstate those changes - with clear consensus, a clear talk page discussion, and for-fucks-sake - ONE CLEAR EDIT. Hipocrite (talk) 02:35, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I notice that David.Kane has reverted to his edited version. Is there any editor who typically disagress with David.Kane that believes his edits were an improvement to the article? If so, what parts of his edits were good, and which parts were bad? Please feel free to revert the parts of his edits that were bad without fear of a "mediator" declaring a version is blessed, as that is patent nonsense. Hipocrite (talk) 02:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Hipocrite - I'm glad you're taking an interest in the page, but it would be nice if you made positive contributions rather than simply tried to upset the applecart. can you point to specific things in DK's additions that you disagree with, so that we can work to resolve them?

And please don't blame me for any problems you're seeing. If I was going to impose a bias as a mediator, it would have been for the environmental side. In fact, once I'm back to being a normal editor I'll start arguing for that point, so I'd appreciate any observations you want make now (they will help me then). but let's build a good article from this base, rather than just trying to dredge up more confrontations. --Ludwigs2 03:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

No, I cannot, because it's impossible to follow DK's changes, as they were not discussed or proposed as individual changes, he appears to have merely been given leave to do whatever he wanted. There's no draft that I can see anywhere. I blame you for failing to control the process, by creating a behemoth that was far too unwieldy for an amateur editor as opposed to a professional POV pusher to follow and then obviously losing the trust of one "side" of the mediation, and then taking that loss of trust to mean that the other "side" won. I'd like to see a point by point list of the major changes to the article, or a link to the fullsome discussion of the draft of the rewrite, and then I'll be able to comment more clearly about your failings. If those things don't exist, your failings where that you didn't require them. Hipocrite (talk) 03:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

well, if you're entire argument boils down to wp:IDONTLIKEIT, as the above would suggest, then I acknowledge that fact that you don't like it. However, that is not proper grounds for making changes to an article. unless you can point to specific things that you dislike, and give specific reasons why you dislike them, what are we supposed to do?

Look, I can argue for our side of the debate (your and my side, 'cause we're on the same side) very effectively with or without you, and I will do my best to improve the article and address your concerns whether or not you want to cooperate with me in that effort. but if you're going to interfere with the article just because you don't like me, well... that ain't right. Article comes first, always; there are more effective and honest ways for you to deal with me if that's what you have a mind to do. --Ludwigs2 03:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

That's not my argument at all. My argument is "What the fuck did you change and why?" Can't tell from the draft (there was no draft). Can't tell from the edit summaries (they were rarely used, and were less than descriptive when used) can't tell from the big-diff, because the article was totally unlike the earlier one. There's not any accountability side. I don't even know what the sides are, but I know a clusterfuck when I see one - this is one.

I see you have a strong PoV on this subject. Do you think you were suitable as a mediator? I don't. Perhaps you should have sought a more experienced wikipedian without any baggage on the topic, like, for instance, me. Certainly, given that you think my process concerns have led you to decide I have a vested interest and just don't like the content, well, I think you've disqualified yourself, since I know fuck-all about the content. Hipocrite (talk) 03:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm perfectly capable of mediating without my personal point of view showing itself; that's not an issue. If you yourself have issues with my mediation skills, I'm more than happy to take that up somewhere more appropriate than article talk. lead the way, and I'll follow. Otherwise, you are entitled to your opinion, and I'll take your critique under due consideration.

That being said, if you (and allow me to quote you) "know fuck-all about the content", why in heaven's name do you feel entitled to make massive reverts to the article? I had assumed that you made that revert because of some informed opinion that the content itself had some kind of flaw, but now you seem to be saying that you reverted for no reason related to content whatsoever. Does that qualify as a good editing practice in your opinion? it does tend to lead back to the idea that you are editing out of IDONTLIKEIT sentiments. don't violate wp:POINT here - if you have a concern not related to article content, don't muck with the article just to make it heard. --Ludwigs2 04:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

No, Ludwigs2, you are incapable of mediating, because you didn't do it - you did not engage the parties, you did not set out a process, you did not seek common ground, and you did not conclude with consensus. In otherwords, stop, now. I'm not proving a point, I'm trying to fix an article by at least trying to follow some sort of norms - you know, like WP:BRD. That didn't work, because someone felt they were "blessed" in reverting over and over to their preferred version. Instead, I tried tagging the article to direct readers to the talk page, but that was also reverted by the same person. Problematic, to say the least. Hipocrite (talk) 05:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Do you realize that in this entire exchange with me you have repeatedly attacked a number of different editors on several points, yet have not made one single substantive comment about content? --Ludwigs2 06:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Probably because unlike the "mediator," I'm well aware I'm not yet informed enough to take sides on content, but I certainly know process failures when I see them. Hipocrite (talk) 06:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

lol - ok, you have a good night now. --Ludwigs2 06:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Editing the history section - the D in WP:BRD

David.Kane added material from a primary source with his own commentary. I have reverted his addition. If David.Kane can find a book or article on the history of psychology (or nearby commentary) discussing what he wanted to add, then it can be added. Otherwise this is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. None of the current history section, exception for the few lines summarising it, comes from anything but secondary sources in the history of psychology. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 04:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Primary sources are not in and of themselves OR or SYNTH, and have some valid uses on wikipedia. that's just an FYI so that people aren't misled by the above statement, not a judgement on the particular edit (which I haven't examined). Mathsci, please try not to wp:BITE. --Ludwigs2 04:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

No not at all - certainly not in history sections. That's just WP:SYNTH. Can you possibly just go and find somewhere else to edit on wikipedia if you're just intending to lurk around here making misleading remarks? I can give you a few suggestions. Bach's trio sonatas for organ is a red link for example. Mathsci (talk) 04:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

noted, but my point still stands. and I'm more of a Beethoven fan; Bach's ok, but I find him a bit obsessed with form at the expense (at times) of substance. --Ludwigs2 04:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

If you're not interested in adding or discussing content, could you please stop making trolling remarks? It's not very helpful or constructive, Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 05:19, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

my point still stands. but thank you. --Ludwigs2 05:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Your point is poor. There is no reason to say "something was published" in a history section and cite the thing that was published - it's not-notable, and it's synthesis. If the thing was notable, an unquestionably reliable secondary source would have addressed it. This is pretty standard WP:OR for intermediates - the kind of thing that a mediator in a contentious article should know like the back of their hand. I think it's time for you to step aside. Hipocrite (talk) 05:39, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Mathsci: if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I actually didn't disagree with you. I simply clarified wikipedia policy, because we are dealing with relatively new editors and I don't want them to get the idea that primary sources can never be used. is that alright with you, or would you like to continue disagreeing with something I didn't say? --Ludwigs2 06:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Are you having a hard time telling people apart? Stop saying things that aren't relevant and people will stop instructing you about the obvious things you missed. Hipocrite (talk) 06:47, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

sorry, I just glanced at it, and didn't realize you were multithreading. --Ludwigs2 06:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

First, MathSci writes "David.Kane added material from a primary source with his own commentary." Untrue! BPesta added that content. I merely provided the correct citation. A good thing, right? Second, correct me if I am wrong, but there is no Wikipedia policy against the use of primary sources, at least for facts which are not mentioned in secondary sources. So, Bpesta's addition (properly cited) was perfectly reasonable, under the assumption (which I think is true) that that special edition of Intelligence is not mentioned in the textbooks that MathSci uses. A true statement, properly sources to WP:RS is allowed on Wikipedia. Surely, no one disagrees with that? Third, we have the much more difficult judgment of notability. Reasonable editors can disagree with that, just as some editors disagree about other sentences in MathSci's summary. But, before, we can have that discussion, we need to agree that BPesta's addition is not a WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. David.Kane (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Stop the madness

Mathsci and Hipocrite the behaviour you are exhibiting is unbecoming and destructive to the editing environment. Your behavior towards Ludwigs is completely uncalled for. I am saddened to see that the only ones who are actually trying to construct consensus on this page are the ones with whom I agree the least. If you keep this up the page is going to get locked and someone is going to get blocked (thats a prediction not a threat, as I am of course personally involved by now). ·Maunus·ƛ· 06:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the page will be locked or someone will get blocked if the only response to serious concerns about a full rewrite is consistent reverting and the only response to content that was proposed, discussed, and modified based on that discussion is reversion to remove it. However, I suspect the people being blocked will be the people who neglect to discuss their changes. I still don't know which side I'm "on," but I'm certain that which-ever one it is is, in fact, the right side. Could someone point out the people pushing a fringe PoV so I can disagree with them? Thanks! Hipocrite (talk) 06:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I am happy to report that in my three days involvement I have not noticed and fring POV pushers. I have noticed different viewpoints and people who want theirs included in the article - but I have also noticed that everyone is open to colaboration and to let the opposite viewpoints be heard as well. Fact is that it was a positive surprise for me that the editing environment was so civil - that positive experience seems to have ended abruptly with the end of mediation.·Maunus·ƛ· 06:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed! I think that we have built up a lot of goodwill over the last few months. Again, I appreciate all the time and effort that MathSci put into his history section. I look forward to its inclusion in the article. Indeed, I wish that Hipocrite had been polite and waited patiently for MathSci to finish and then add it to the article himself. Of course, as with everything on Wikipedia, there will be debates. Although I like MathSci's history (and any objective observer would admit that it is of very high quality), I share some of the concerns expressed by Bpesta, Occam and MikeM about it. But I feel that all those concerns can be handled within the context of normal editing. When MathSci is ready, I hope that he will add his history to the article. David.Kane (talk) 12:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Request for comments on different formats for Notes and References

I am impressed with how much nicer the formatting for Notes/References used by MathSci in History of the race and intelligence controversy is compared with the Notes/References formatting in Race and Intelligence. I am thinking of changing this article over. Main benefits are 1) Things look nicer and 2) It is easier to deal with multiple footnotes to the same reference. (For example, footnoting specific pages in the APA report or pulling out multiple quotes.) Comments? David.Kane (talk) 17:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

the 'Significance' section

This section has been moved to article talk from the mediation page, as a still-open discussion. The original debate was left in mediation, but archived with a link back to this page --Ludwigs2 18:02, 12 April 2010 (UTC) Reference: The section being referred to would draw material from here, an earlier version of the article.

I've opened this thread to discuss the inclusion and nature of a Significance section in the article. I know there's a dispute over this, but I am not sure of the full details of what's being debated. can someone clarify? --Ludwigs2 14:31, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There is no outline for the section, the model on which it is based give undue weight to the controversial researchers, and it's not clear that there is any measurable significance related to the racial IQ gap'. The original version is essentially a 1700 word essay which confuses correlation and causation. A.Prock (talk) 18:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Let's take this discussion one sub-section at a time. I'd like to start with Controlling for IQ, as this sub-section contains information I think is very difficult to see as being irrelevant to the article. What specific objections are there to including the material contained in this sub-section? --Aryaman (talk) 19:02, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're talking about the Significance section, it'll be better to start with a rationalle and an outline. A.Prock (talk) 20:27, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

There is a link at the top of this section, just above Ludwigs' comment. I'd find it difficult to produce a defensible outline without having evaluated the quality/relevance of the information which it is to contain. I'm assuming that's what we're here to do, i.e. evaluate the material in this section and see what needs to be done with it before it goes in the article, if at all. Am I missing something here? --Aryaman (talk) 20:36, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

If it's difficult coming up with a defensible outline, that seems like an indication that there are other real problems. The material isn't even an issue yet. Without understanding what the section is supposed to be about, anything could go in there. You may remember that that was one of my earlier comments. The section description was far too vague to serve as any kind of guide as to what would be covered. A.Prock (talk) 20:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

If I understand VA, correctly, what he’s saying is that there are three steps we need to accomplish with this section, each of which needs to be completed before we can do the step after it. The steps are:

1: Look at the material this section would contain, and evaluate its quality and relevance. (To know what topics this section would be about, we can look at the link Ludwig posted.)

2: Write the outline of this section, based on the material that we’ve agreed is relevant enough to go in it.

3: Write the section. (Or perhaps have David.Kane write it for us, if he’s going to continue being our main writer.)

The only reason we can’t do step #2 right now is because we haven’t done step #1 yet. This doesn’t indicate anything specific about problems with this material, because we would have the exact same problem with any section of the article if we were trying to write an outline for it before we’d established for certain what topics it would cover. Determining what topics it would cover is what we’re trying to do now. Most of us would be fine with covering all of the same topics that are covered in the section Ludwig linked to, albeit in condensed form, but since you’ve said you have a problem with this idea we need to find some sort of compromise with you about it.

Varoon Arya suggested that we discuss the potential content of this section one topic at a time, starting with the sub-section titled controlling for IQ. (This sub-section can be found in the section from the January 20 version of the article that Ludwig linked to.) Do you have any specific objections to including the information that’s in this section? --Captain Occam (talk) 01:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

When you have figured out what the section should be about, and have an outline, let me know. A.Prock (talk) 02:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

We’ve known what this section would be about since we first began discussing its possible inclusion last month. It would be about the same topics as the earlier version of this section that Ludwig linked to, minus any that you can provide a convincing rationale for leaving out.

Are you saying that you won’t be willing to tell us which of the topics covered there you’d have a problem with being in the article until after we write the outline for this section? That seems like a kind of backwards way of handling this, but if it’s what you insist, I guess I’ll wait for VA to make a proposal about the outline for it. (Since he’s who wrote the outline for the rest of article, I’m assuming he ought to write the outline for this part also; I hope he doesn’t have a problem with that.) --Captain Occam (talk) 03:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Let me make sure I'm getting this right. Aprock has objected to the inclusion of this material in the article on the grounds that it has "no relevance to the issue of race and intelligence" and/or that it gives "undue weight to controversial researchers". I've requested that we address his concerns before attempting to frame an outline for the section, as that seems to me to be the most efficient way of going about resolving the issue. He, in turn, has requested someone produce an outline for the section before we discuss his concerns. Is that a fair summary? --Aryaman (talk) 06:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Aprock has not refused to discuss these issues. My reading of Aprock's comment is that, until he sees some concrete input with specific suggestions, eg sentences on a subpage, it's not possible to discuss content. Otherwise put: it is impossible to discuss vague suggestions until they have been turned into more concrete proposals envisaged for the article. Mathsci (talk) 10:12, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

That's what I don't understand. There is a concrete section we're discussing - chock full of real sentences and everything - and it's linked at the head of this discussion. I don't consider this vague at all. The easiest move would be to copy and paste it into the article and then improve it from there, but Aprock has objected to this. This is the discussion where we're supposed to find out what Aprock (or whoever else) doesn't like about the section so we can start attempting to address his concerns. I'm having a hard time figuring out where the sticking point in all of this is. --Aryaman (talk) 10:32, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Aryaman: please try to avoid psychological statements. the fact that A.Prock hasn't yet explained himself is not a 'refusal' to do so. patience, please. allow him to look over the draft and decide how he wants to approach the issue, at least for a bit. I would appreciate it if you'd go back over your last few posts in this section and strike out the more demanding-sounding phrases. perhaps the best thing would be for you to copy the proposed section over here (put it in a quote box) so that we can examine it concretely. --Ludwigs2 18:09, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've changed and/or struck what I'm guessing sounded "demanding". If I didn't get it all, help me out. As for copying and pasting the section over here: Do we really want to do that? It's (currently) a largish section, and there are ca. 50 in-line citations. I personally find it easier to work in multiple windows (I'm not a fan of scrolling), but if others would find it helpful, I'd have no problem doing it. --Aryaman (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

If the idea is to take that section wholesale and put it into the current article, then you should surely be able to summarize what the section is about and provide an outline. I'm not at all interested in going into a point by point critique of that section until we have a summary of the section and an outline. The entire rest of the rewrite is being approached that way, I don't see how it's not possible to do with what seems to be a 1700 word section. Remember, the goal of the mediation was to come up with an agreed outline before the particulars of content were to be decided.A.Prock (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I assumed Aprock's specific objection to the content of this section rightfully called for a different approach, e.g. examining the content in light of his objections before trying to put together an outline we could agree on. I see that consideration was unnecessary on my part. Sorry for the inconvenience. Here's what I think Aprock is asking for.

Summary: This section should summarize research regarding the salient aspects of the real-world (e.g. social, academic, economic) impact of the IQ gap on societies as well as on the individuals within them.

Current outline:

• Significance of group IQ differences

• Within societies

• Scope
• Practical importance
• Controlling for IQ

• Between nations
• For high-achieving minorities

As far as I know, DJ was largely responsible for this outline. --Aryaman (talk) 19:04, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

To clarify here, is the section only supposed to summarize research into the impact of the racial IQ gap? I don't have a problem including a section about research into the impact of the IQ gap. But if that's the criterion, not much of the original content falls under that scope. A.Prock (talk) 20:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to throw in a structural comment, just for consideration. This outline seems to be conflating several different areas of significance. For instance, in my own head I think in terms of 'political significance' (laws, policies, etc), 'social significance' (practices and functional social organization, within and across communities), and 'theoretical significance' (how this debate influences other scholarly areas), all of which play out across all of the outlines sections. for instance, 'between nations' could refer to discourses in the discipline of International Relations, or policies adopted by the UN, or immigration laws, or social exclusionism (such as the occasional problems that crop up in France and Germany over Turkish and Arab migrant workers and refugees). Would it be better to restructure it along those lines (assuming there's proper sourcing), or am I missing a point somewhere? --Ludwigs2 21:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

That's exactly why we should have this discussion. The current outline is not without problems, and I see several ways to re-organize this material, which could include removing some of it, supplementing it with additional information, and/or re-structuring the entire section with a new sub-division and headings. I've had a healthy dose of criticism for writing up the outline for the main article, so forgive me if I do not jump at the chance to re-structure this on my own. I'd prefer to approach this with a discussion and evaluation of the material that is there, and see what could be done to improve it, either in content or in form. But I think I've already said enough here for the time being, and should wait for Occam, DJ and others to voice their opinions. --Aryaman (talk) 00:08, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

VA, I don’t think I’m as good at organizing things as you and DJ are. I agree that the material ought to be condensed due to size concerns, but coming up with an entire new way of organizing it really isn’t my forte. However, if any other editors want to make suggestions about alternative structures, I’ll gladly offer my feedback about them, the same as I’ve done for the outline you made for the rest of the article. --Captain Occam (talk) 03:36, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Is anyone else going to offer an outline about this? I can try to come up with one myself if you and DJ really don’t want to, but it probably won’t be as good as what either of you could do. --Captain Occam (talk) 10:26, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

comparison of ledes

This section has been moved to article talk from the mediation page, as a still-open discussion. The original debate was left in mediation, but archived with a link back to this page --Ludwigs2 18:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

comparison of two versions of the lede
David.Kane's lead	Varoon Arya's version
Race and intelligence research investigates differences in the distributions of cognitive skills among human races. IQ tests have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation among the major racial groups, with a rough average rank ordering of East Asians > Whites > Amerindians > Blacks. At the same time, there is considerable overlap among individual scores, and members of each racial group can be found at all points on the IQ spectrum. Many factors that could potentially influence the development of intelligence have been advanced as possible causes of the racial IQ gap which, though subject to variation over time, has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began. Environmental and cultural factors affect individual IQ scores and, therefore, racial group averages. Hereditarians argue that genetics explain a significant portion (approximately 50%) of the differences in measured intelligence among human races. Leading scholars of this view include Arthur Jensen, Philippe Rushton, Richard Herrnstein, Linda Gottfredson, Charles Murray and Richard Lynn. Proponents of the environmental interpretation argue that genetics explain none of the differences in measured intelligence among human races. Leading scholars of this view include Richard Lewontin, Stephen J. Gould, James Flynn, Richard Nisbett and Stephen Ceci. The American Psychological Association has concluded that the racial IQ gap is not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, but that no adequate explanation of it has so far been given. References	The connection between race and intelligence has been a subject of debate in both popular science and academic research since the inception of intelligence testing in the early twentieth century, particularly in the United States. Intelligence quotient (IQ) tests performed in the US have consistently demonstrated a significant degree of variation between different racial groups, with the average score of the African American population being significantly lower - and that of the Asian American population being significantly higher - than that of the White American population. At the same time, there is considerable overlap between these group scores, and members of each racial group can be found at all points on the IQ spectrum. Similar findings have been reported for related populations around the world, most notably in Africa, though these are generally considered far less reliable due to the relative paucity of test data and the difficulties inherent in the cross-cultural comparison of intelligence test scores. There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the discussion of their connection involves the results of multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology. Many factors that could potentially influence the development of intelligence have been advanced as possible causes of the racial IQ gap which, though subject to variation over time, has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began. It is generally agreed that environmental and/or cultural factors affect individual IQ scores, and it is widely assumed that most or all of the racial IQ gap is attributable to such factors, though none are conclusively supported by direct empirical evidence. Far more controversial is the claim put forward by several psychologists, including Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn, that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap has an ultimately genetic origin. This claim has not been accepted by the wider academic community and has been met with widespread disapproval in the popular media. The American Psychological Association has concluded that the racial IQ gap is not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, but that no adequate explanation of it has so far been given. References

reading these over, I think it's clear that DK's lede privileges the hereditarian approach a bit, while Mathsci's privileges the environmental approach. neither is horribly biased, mind you, that's just the way they lean. I personally prefer Mathsci's version, except for the last paragraph (which comes off as a stomp and grind, though I don't think that was intentional). would it be possible to take the first two paragraphs of Mathsci's lede and blend in extracts from paragraphs 2, 3, and 5 of DK's lede? I think we might find a nice neutral statement that way. --Ludwigs2 23:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I have brought up the abuse of WP editing procedures on WP:ANI. David.Kane has ignored consensus and written one of the worst ledes I have ever seen in my experience as a wikipedia editor. I take a lot of trouble locating and using sources in writing articles: this process is slow. I even provided some downloaded sources on my wikipedia web page for David.Kane. In the meantime, even if mediation terminates soon, I have ordered the books of Mackintosh and Jefferson Fish. Then, when normal edting resumes, not pushed by WP:SPAs, editing of the article can proceed in a more cautious and standard way. There is no need for editors to invent or suppress important details when writing the lede. That is the very worst kind of editing. Mathsci (talk) 23:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The writing in Arya's seems a bit more polished but I don't really see content differences across the two-- at least not big ones. I'm ok with either, except for perhaps suggesting minor wording changes.

Bpesta22 (talk) 00:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

well, there are subtle but important differences. for instance, DK's version seems to presume that both race and intelligence are themselves non-problematic concepts, which might be misleading. and then there are tonal differences ('Proponents of the environmental interpretation' vs. 'Far more controversial is the claim...' about genetics). these kinds of emphatic distinctions tend to get put under a magnifying glass by editors, and cause a world of headaches. otherwise I agree with you. --Ludwigs2 00:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to Ludwig for organizing this discussion. Template:Nono I have made the following assumptions about the article/consensus. These assumptions explain why I like my lead better. But, I could be wrong. I have broken up these issues into separate sections for ease of discussion. Please provide your comment where you see fit. David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

FYI - I've restored Aryaman's lead for the duration of this discussion, because that was the last version which I know had consensus. this isn't a judgment; just keeping things fair. --Ludwigs2 00:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

(mediator note: compacting DK's sections into a bulleted list. --Ludwigs2 04:42, 10 April 2010 (UTC))

• The article is not US-specific. -Race and Intelligence is not, by design (and consensus, I assume) Race and Intelligence in the United States. It covers the globe (to the extent that our sources do). For example, (to cite a source used by me in the article) N. J. Mackintosh (1998) IQ and Human Intelligence discusses the black-white difference in the context of both the US and Britain. So, terms like African American should not be used in the lead. We need terms that are not country specific. I am not claiming that my specific choices are best. For example, I used East Asian rather than Asian to avoid confusion with the British meaning of Asian. But using terms/links like African American in the lead is certainly wrong. David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• The subject of the first sentence should be Race and Intelligence - Do I even need to quote WP:LEAD? "If possible, the page title should be the subject of the first sentence." Mine is. Note, also, how my first sentence parallels the first sentence of Sex and Intelligence (which I did not write). David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• Specific IQ scores or not? - Assuming that we can agree on non-US specific terms, we have the decision about whether or not to include specific IQ scores. As you can see, neither version above does. But I also recognize that several other editors (I think including Faye, Occam, Bpesta and Mike) wanted to include average scores (100 for White, 85 for Black, et cetera). In seeking consensus between this group and those that disagree, I thought that being very explicit in the ranking, including the US of greater-than-signs, is a useful middle ground. David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• Mentioning specific researchers - It would be reasonable to not mention specific researchers in the lead. It is reasonable to mention researchers from both sides, as I have done. It is not reasonable to only mention specific researchers who are heriditarian. David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• Mentioning Amerindians - One of the primary sources I am relying on is Roth, P. L.; Bevier, C. A.; Bobko, P.; Switzer, F. S.; Tyler, P. (2001). "Ethnic Group Differences in Cognitive Ability in Employment and Educational Settings: A Meta-Analysis". Personnel Psychology. It has extensive discussion of the difference between Whites and Hispanics. Is that difference an important part of the article? I think so. The article is Race and Intelligence not Black-White IQ Gap. So, the inclusion of this group in the lead makes sense. (I also think that this helps to balance the concerns of editors who wanted explicit scores included.) I think the term Amerindians is best in this context, but, again, I am flexible on what terminology to use, as long as it is not US-specific. David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• Conciseness - I think that my version is much more concise, which is a good thing in and of itself and makes it easier to expand. I could certainly imagine several sentences being added to provide more detail on the heritarian and environmental position. I also think that several of the sentences in the other version are either unnecessary ("the discussion of their connection involves the results of multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology") or deeply problematic ("There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia"). David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, after an evening of wine, women, and song (which I highly recommend, though you may adjust the middle term to suit your preferences) and a morning of quiet contemplation of the beaty of being alive (which I recommend even more highly), I'm going to suggest a compromise lead that incorporates what I can of both the leads above. Do with it as you will - it's not my place as mediator to make edits - but I'm thinking that there's enough overlap between the two versions that this might satisfy.

First, though, to address DK's points:

• The article is not US-specific. - As I understand it, the debate began in the US context (due to the US's peculiar race conditions), and was expanded to be global after the debate was already in progress. the article may need to keep a stronger focus on the US, just because the bulk of the research relates to the US, though (of course) the world perspective whould be included per NPOV. this is just a question of balance
• The subject of the first sentence should be Race and Intelligence - that's a guideline, not a rule. but I've addressed it in the compromise draft
• Specific IQ scores or not? - This is a minor content disagreement. personally, I don't see any need to get into that much detail in the lead (the numbers will, I assume, be properly covered in the body), but I don't really have an opinion on it beyond that.
• Mentioning specific researchers - It would be reasonable to not mention specific researchers in the lead. It is reasonable to mention researchers from both sides, as I have done. It is not reasonable to only mention specific researchers who are heriditarian. David.Kane (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
• Mentioning Amerindians - as above. if it's sourced, and significant enough in the literature that it merits inclusion, it should be included; if it's not a significant aspect of the research, it should be left for the body.
• Conciseness - I don't see a lot of difference in length between the two versions. concise is good, over-concise is bad, but...

Now for the compromise draft:

Race and intelligence research investigates differences in the distributions of cognitive skills among human races. Beginning in the early twentieth century, popular science and academic research have debated the possible connection of race and intelligence, originally as a comparison of African Americans and Caucasians in the United States, but later extended to other races and regions of the world. In the US, intelligence quotient (IQ) tests have consistently demonstrated statistical differences: the scores of the African American population are on average lower than that of the White American population; the Asian American population on average scores higher; Amerinds scores on average fall between Caucasian and African American scores. Similar findings have been reported for populations around the world, most notably in Africa, though these are generally considered far less reliable due to the relative paucity of test data and the difficulties inherent in the cross-cultural comparison of intelligence test scores. The distribution of IQ scores has considerable range - individuals in every racial group may have IQ's that lie anywhere on the spectrum of scores. These difference show primarily in aggregate studies.

There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the race and intelligence debate involves multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology, complicating scholarly discussion. Many factors that could potentially influence the development of intelligence have been advanced to explain the racial IQ gap. There is general agreement that environmental and/or cultural factors affect individual IQ scores, and it is widely assumed that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap is attributable to such factors, though none are conclusively supported by direct empirical evidence. The more controversial view that a significant portion of the racial IQ gap is ultimately of genetic origin has been advanced by academics such as Arthur Jensen, J. Philippe Rushton and Richard Lynn. This claim met with widespread criticism in the popular media, particularly after the publication of Herrnstein and Murray's book, "The Bell Curve", and has not to date gained acceptance by the wider academic community.

The racial IQ gap has remained relatively stable since IQ testing began, although IQ scores as a whole have themselves been subject to change over time. The American Psychological Association has concluded that the racial IQ gap is not the result of bias in the content or administration of tests, but that no adequate explanation of it has so far been given.

Notes:

• all references are the same in both the above versions, and retained here.
• I've added a reference to The Bell Curve to explain why the genetic hypothesis garnered public criticism
• I've replaced the word 'significant' (and variants) with the word 'statistical' (and variants) with a link to statistical significance. People often misinterpret the word 'significant' to mean 'important', when that is not the sense of statistical significance at all.
• I've shuffled things around, integrated things, and rewritten for clarity, mostly. I've expanded on a couple of points: the bit about IQ range at the end of the first paragraph, and the bit about the gap remaining steady while IQ scores have changed at the beginning (now) of the last paragraph.

For your inspection. --Ludwigs2 17:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Something that David.Kane and I have both said about this lead, to which nobody has provided a counter-argument, is that it's unbalanced to mention specific researchers who favor one hypothesis but not who favor the other. Since you’ve preserved this aspect of the lead in your compromise version, can you explain why you think this is appropriate? --Captain Occam (talk) 01:27, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the time that you have taken with this. Given that Occam feels the same as I do about the inclusion of names from just one side, and that no one has provided a rational for doing so, I hope that you would take his concerns seriously. Again, if I could only change one thing it would be to make the racial terms/links non-US specific. That is just wrong. Below are some minor comments. Feel free to use them or ignore them.

• "popular science and academic research have debated" That reads, to me, as if popular science (on one side) and academic research (on the other side) have debated this issue. Of course, that is not what you mean.
• "Beginning in the early twentieth century" is not right either. Note that it is contradicted by the first sentence of the History section, a sentence not written by me. This is the problem with flowery writing in the lead. It may read nicely, but it isn't true. Better concise and true instead of flowery and false.
• "These difference show primarily in aggregate studies." Again, flowery and imprecise writing. What is an "aggregate" study in this context? If some studies are "aggregate," what are the non-aggregate studies? Can you name a single non-aggregate study of race and IQ? Of course not! There is no such thing. All these studies use aggregates. What you mean to say is that the racial averages differ. Just say that.
• "There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence in academia, and the race and intelligence debate involves multiple disciplines, including biology, anthropology, sociology, and psychology, complicating scholarly discussion." Again, this is useless fluff. Why those four disciplines? Could we drop anthropology? Or why not add genetics? Moreover, it is not clear to me that R&I involves more disciplines than any other debate. Got a source for that? And, even if you did, do you have a source for the claim that this fact complicates "scholarly discussion." Imagine that a law were passed requiring that only Ph.D. psychologists could participate in the debate. Do you really think the debate would be less complicated or contentious? I don't. Nesbitt/Jensen/Sternberg would still disagree just as much, and in just as complicated fashion.
• "This claim met with widespread criticism in the popular media, particularly after the publication of Herrnstein and Murray's book, "The Bell Curve"" I think that this is a significant misunderstanding of the history. (And now we are naming 5 heriditarians in the lead, not just 3!) First, the Bell Curve did not (meaningful) advance a heriditarian position. They declared themselves agnostic on the topic, at least with regard to B-W differences. People attacked the Bell Curve for other reasons, not because of "this claim", i.e., the heriditarian position.

Hope that is helpful. David.Kane (talk) 02:55, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

@ Occam: Again, I was just integrating the two versions, so I have no personal opinion about whether the names should be included or excluded. We would tend to use names this way when there is a small number of researchers advocating for a reasonable but newish theory. For instance, it was much more common a few decades back to refer to 'Einstein's theory of relativity', as opposed to simply 'the theory of relativity'; the presence or absence of the proper name distinguishes contenders from winners (in terms of scholarly acceptance). my own sense is that while most academics would accept the idea that genetics plays a factor in intelligence, the more stringent idea that genetics is a dominant factor and is associated with race is still an up-and-coming theory localized to a few researchers; that would merit the use of proper names. If the theory is more broadly accepted than that (for a rule of thumb, I'd say that if you can list 8-10 notable academics who actively advocate this position) then you're probably right that the names should be removed. Balance is not equality, remember: If this really is their theory, and they are still in that (necessary) stage of convincing other academics of its merits as a theory, then we should not give the theory more prominence than it deserves by asserting it as a theory

@D.K. You make some good points - my responses (point to point):

• How about "debates in popular science and academic research over the possible connection of..." I do see your point, and I'm not attached to the wording, I just didn't like the 'have been the subject of debate...' structure.
• The "Beginning in the early twentieth century" bit can be cut entirely if you like. Don't disrespect my flowery language, though, otherwise I'll remove my ascot, top-hat, and monocle, and challenge you to fisticuffs.
• "These difference show primarily in aggregate studies." One thing that I dislike about your version, above, is that you blur the epistemology/ontology distinction. What we literally, actually see is statistical differences in aggregate studies of IQ scores across SIRE data about racial categories. Saying simply "racial averages differ" takes all of the valid epistemological concerns (what is race an how does it connect with SIRE data, what is the meaning and nature of statistically significant differences) and tosses them out the window, asserting them as ontological truths. for analogy, it is a medically proven fact that taking massive doses of vitamin C can shorten the length of the common cold by (on average) about an hour out of the standard week that an average cold runs (e.g. something like 167 hours rather than 168). shortening that to 'vitamin C reduces the length of the common cold' is over-concise to the point of misrepresentation.
• There are no universally accepted definitions of either race or intelligence... - I just copied this line, and I'm not going to specifically defend it. The point that needs to be made here, somehow, is that this topic gets into trouble because it crosses disciplinary boundaries in some odd ways. for comparison, something like schizophrenia also crosses disciplinary boundaries 9there are people who have studied if from biological, psychological, sociological, and etc perspectives), but there is generally no contention there because all disciplines recognize schizophrenia as a personal pathological condition. in this case, however, different disciplines disagree vehemently about whether the 'racial gap' is pathological, and where that pathology resides. I mean, it's one thing to say that a small percentage of people have a pathological condition that causes them to behave aberrantly, and argue over whether it's genetic of environmental. it's another thing entirely to suggest that an entire race (comprising a significant portion of the world's population) suffer from a pathological deficit in intelligence, particularly when we have such impoverished definitions of the the concepts of race and intelligence themselves. The first phrase needs to stay, IMO; the list of disciplines can probably go.
• "Bell curve stuff" - I only through in the Bell Curve bit because that book was the beginning of the public/normal person condemnation of the race and intelligence issue. the theory had been around academia for ages before the BC, unnoticed; without the BC, the theory would probably still be being debated in scholarly circles without any public notice at all. H&M may have been agnostic on the issue, and certainly had some analytical problems with their research, but their book kicked up a shit storm in the newspapers and popular literature. by the way, we could just shorten it to the bell curve and eliminate their names if that makes you happy.

again, I am searching for a compromise version here (and needing to argue a bit on Mathsci's behalf, for various reasons). This is just the way I see it. --Ludwigs2 07:37, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The history section

This section has been moved to article talk from the mediation page, as a still-open discussion. The original debate was left in mediation, but archived with a link back to this page --Ludwigs2 18:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC) I have written extra material for the first segment of the history section, using as the initial secondary source the section on "Race Differences in Intelligence" in this textbook:

• Benjamin, Ludy T. (2006), Brief History of Modern Psychology, Wiley-Blackwell, pp. 188–191, ISBN 140513206X

Ludy Benjamin is one of the foremost historians of psychology. A second segment will follow. Mathsci (talk) 10:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

In !895 R.Meade Bache, University of Pennsylvania, published an article in Psychological Review concerning the reaction times of three population groups in the USA, with in decreasing order of speed, Native Amricans, African Americans and whites. He explained the slowness of the whites by the fact that their brains were more contemplative and did not function well on primitive tasks. This was one of the first examples of scientific racism, in which science is used to bolster beliefs in the superiority of a particular race.

In 1912 the Columbia psychology graduate Frank Bruner reviewed the scientific literature on auditory perception in black and white subjects in Psychological Bulletin, characterizing, "the mental qualities of the Negro as: lacking in filial affection, strong migratory instincts and tendencies; little sense of verneration, integrity or honor; shiftless, indolent, untidy, improvident, extravagant, lazy, untruthful, lacking in persistence and initiative and unwilling to work continuously at details. Indeed, experience with the Negro in classrooms indicates that it is impossible to get the child to do anything with continued accuracy, and similarly in industrial pursuits, the Negro shows a woeful lack of powere of sustained activity and constructive conduct."

In 1916 George O. Ferguson conducted research in his Columbia Ph.D. thesis on "The psychology of the Negro", finding them poor in abstract thought, but good in physical responses, recommending how this should be reflected in education.

In 1916 Lewis Terman, in the manual accompanying the Stanford-Binet Intelligence Test, referred to the higher frequency of morons among non-white American racial groups stating that further research into race difference on intelligence should be conducted and that the "enormously significant racial differences in general intelligence" could not be remedied by education.

In the 1920's psychologists started questioning underlying assumptions of racial differences in intelligence; although not discounting them, the possibility was considered that they were on a smaller scale than previously supposed and also due to factors other than heredity. In 1924 Floyd Allport wrote in his book "Social Psychology" that the French sociologist Gustave Le Bon was incorrect in asserting "a gap between inferior and superior species" and pointed to "social inheritance" and "environmental factors" as factors that accounted for differences. Nevertheless he conceded that "the intelligence of the white race is of a more versatile and complex order than that of the black race. It is probably superior to that of the red or yellow races."

In 1929 Robert Woodworth in his textbook on psychology made no claims about innate differences in intelligence between races, pointing instead to environmental and cultural factors. He considered it advisable to "suspend judgement and keep our eyes open from year to year for fresh and more conclusive evidence that will probably be discovered".

In 1935 Otto Klineberg wrote two books "Negro Intelligence and Selective Migration" and "Race Differences", dismissing claims that African Americans in the northern states were more intelligent than those in the south. He concluded that there was no scientific proof of racial differences in intelligence and that this should not therefore be used as a justification for policies in education or employment. In the 1940s many psychologists, particularly social psychologists, conceded that enviromental and cultural factors, as well as discrimination and prejudice, provided a more probable explanation of disparities in intelligence. According to Franz Samelson's analysis in 1978, this change in attitude had become widespread by then, with very few studies in race differences in intelligence, a change brought out by an increase in the number of psychologists not from a "lily-white ... Anglo-Saxon" background but from Jewish backgrounds. Other factors that influenced American psychologists were the Nazi claims of a master race and the economic changes brought about by the depression.

Despite these changes in the way most American psychologists approach race and intelligence, there is still a small and vocal group, led by Arthur Jensen and J. Philippe Rushton who continue to insist that racial differences in intelligence exist and cannot be explained solely through environmental or cultural factors. The psychologist-historian Graham Richards has described this continued concern with race and intelligence as a "peculiarly American obsession".

Nonsense. You're misrepresenting the fact that current consensus is agnosticism, and that, if anything an approximately 50% genetic etiology probably has more support among experts than 100% environmental. I prefer David's history, without your changes. mikemikev (talk) 11:57, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Ahem, this is just a summary of what the source says. It does not say at all what you claim it says. It is additional material, not an alternative. It is just the first part of the additional history. The rest is more complicated to write and will use further sources. Unless you can find fault with this source, which is written by a distinguished historian of psychology, what point is there in you simply writing WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Unfortunately your way is not the way wikipedia articles are edited. If you have a problem with either Ludy Benjamin or Graham Richards, or their publsihers, please say so. The book by Benjamin has had excellent reviews from what I can tell. Since this is additional material and properly sourced, might it possible for you to find a more constructive way of discussing content in future? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 12:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I think it is relevant to show that the race intelligence debate has its roots in scientific racism and the eugenics theories of the early twentieth century - that is an important part of why the debate is so contentious. It is also relevant to mention that race intelligence research is almost entirely based in the US. ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

The race intelligence debate has been going on since time immemorial. Take a look at Historical definitions of race. Researchers are not just from the US (Rushton, probably the most prominent current researcher, is Canadian/British) and they use data from all over the world. mikemikev (talk) 14:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused as to how describing empirical data that passed peer review can be scientific racism. Stating that a group mean difference exists on IQ test scores is empirical fact-- not racism. Stating that RT differences exist across races and that these differences map on to IQ differences is empirical fact-- not racism. Data are neutral; only the explanation for the data can be racist. If I claim these differences are real but due to massive test bias and poorer environments for minorities, is that racist? If one claimed the difference is due to the inherent inferiority of the minority as part of god's great plan-- well, that's probably racist. But, just describing empirical peer-reviewed data cannot be racist. Whether claiming part of the difference is genetic may or may not be racist (i.e., what if it's true?).Bpesta22 (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not arguing that modern peer reviewed studies of correlations between race and intelligence is scientific racism (or that describing those studies is racism)- I am saying that it is relevant to contextualise this research into the tradition of eugenics and pseudo scientific staments of inherent inferiority of certain racial groups from which it originated - because this context is exactly the reason that it is so controversial today.·Maunus·ƛ· 15:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Maunus once again puts his finger on the key point: putting views in context. BPesta says, "I'm a bit confused as to how describing empirical data that passed peer review can be scientific racism." Bryan, - and I am speaking to you editor to editor - there is no need for confusion. We are not saying that these studies are scientific racism. We are saying that one view holds that these studies are valid scientific research and another view holds that they are scientific racism." We are notsaying anything as such about the research. We are providing the views that are out there. Now, if one of us personally disagrees with one viee, or even does not understand one view, well, what can I say? Everyone has their own opinion. We do have to strive to present each view accurately and as clearly as possible, so if you do not understand that view maybe you can point out places where more information would make our account clearer. But whether any of us personally understands a view or likes it, well, that just is not relevant. Using that as a standard for what we include in this article will only ensure that the article violates WP:NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Still mulling this over and happy to comply with whatever rules wiki uses. But-- perhaps I am biased-- reading this history section gives one the impression that it's a foregone conclusion that Jensen et al. are raving loons motivated by racism. At the very least, it makes it seem like the whole area is junk science, even if the environmental hypothesis is completely true.

I'm guessing one could easily find books / articles, etc. claiming the very worst about people who do research in this area (again this reminds me of the Gottfredson article I linked to somewhere here). I'm trying to strike a balance in my mind between giving these guys too much credit versus letting them be dismissed outright as cranks, since there is now about 100 years of data on this gap. For example, I much prefer the Hunt criticisms to the Nisbett ones. I've seen two examples here of Nisbett's arguments and have not been impressed (understood that my opinion doesn't matter for what the final draft is; just expressing my opinion).

Slru-- sorry for shortening your name as Slu, and thanks for your comment re my editing question. Bpesta22 (talk) 20:54, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

eta, don't know if this is consistent with Wiki rules, but in my mind, the historysection should help clarify for the reader why the questions researchers are asking today are what they are (versus other questions). Examples: no one's really debating whether g can be measured from an IQ score; or whether IQ tests are culturally biased (in the psychometric sense). Instead, researchers are using IQ scores as proxies for g and then via statistics seeing what covaries with g and the race gap.

So, mentioning the Fergusen study-- never heard of it-- doesn't seem like a helpful addition. Things that I think influenced where we are now: Binet starting this whole IQ testing thing. The army discovering the utility of iq (and perhaps mention any racist uses here). The whole immigration controversy; Spearman of course; the intractability of the gap, as revealed by things like head start. Jensen's 1969? article; Griggs v. Duke Power, and the data college profs have amassed at least indirectly in response to that ruling.

All jmo. At this point, feel free to yell at me if I keep screwing up my editing! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bpesta22 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

D'oh; forgot to sign;) Bpesta22 (talk) 21:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

There are several Wikipedia articles dealing with the various aspects of IQ, g, etc. It is certainly a good idea to summarize and link to some of them here, but covering the entire history of IQ research here is beyond the scope of this article. A.Prock (talk) 22:10, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

It's very nice to see wikipedians expressing their personal views, but that's not how wikipedia articles are written. I am continuing to prepare a version of the rest of the history as I've said above. Mathsci (talk) 23:08, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

This is like criticizing modern medicine because back in the day, doctors used leaches to treat disease. How very Gouldian. Bpesta22 (talk) 23:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

BPesta, I do not mind your abbreviating my name. On a purely editorial matter, I do have one request - polease be more attentive to how you out-dent your comments, so that they are clearly set apart from other people's comments. e.g. I just refactored this section so that you are always one space out from me, as your comment followed mine (then AProck is two spaces out etc. Also, could you sign imediately after your last words - just to take up less space ... if you do not mindSlrubenstein | Talk 23:58, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Now, I have three comment in response to your comments and also MathSci's edits. Math Sci, would you consider these specific suggestions to consider in your current editing, please? (1) I think your suggestion "eta, don't know if this is consistent with Wiki rules, but in my mind, the historysection should help clarify for the reader why the questions researchers are asking today are what they are (versus other questions)." is very constructive. MathSci, if you could organize your history so that at last a good portion of it is a history of changing research questions, with explicit markers (i.e. subsections highlighting new research questions) I think that this would make the section much much easier for lay-people to read, and would also make it very clear how the history relates to the topic and finally, organizing it this way clarifies ho and why your approach resolves some NPOV concerns

(2) Second, I agree that we need to be careful about the relevance of earlier racism. Is the point that scientists are biased by their own culture, and that if a culture is biased scientisats will share that bias? Or is the point an irony, that scientists why thought that IQ testing would lead to a meritocracy (and thus end racism) ironically had the opposite effect? The point I want to make right here is this: the question facing any historian is, how far back do you go? Attitudes towards race that dominate world culture today have their origins in the 16th century, do we start there? No. I think in addition to a link to the article on racism we need to have very clear criteria for when we begin the history. Here is my advice, to try to resolve the difference of opinion between MathSci and BPesta: discus the criteria for deciding when to begin. That is, do not debate when actually to start the history, do not argue over how far back. Instead discuss what principles can help us decide how far back to go. I bet if you discuss it at this more abstract/methodological level, you can reach an agreement, and then it will be easier to write the section without controversy.

(3a) finally, I think it is very important in this section to distinguish between accusations of junk science and racist science. My understanding is this: for many, the real problem with Rushton and Lynn is that they are bad scientists; they are conceptualizing the question inappropriately and using the wrong methods. "Racism" becomes a way either to explain why they would be so sloppy, or to explain why some people fund sloppy science. But "bad science" is the real criticism, and racism is a secondary matter. Am I wrong?

(3b) I admit I can imagine another view, that after the revelation of the Tuskegee syphilis experiment and other stuff (like the Union of Concerned Scientists, who were concerned with the ethical responsibilities of physcists who hlped design the atomic bomb) and the formation of legally mandated "Institutional Review Boards" at US universities (and Ethics Committies in the UK), there is this belief that science cannot be ethically disinterested and scientists must consider the ethics of their research, including the consequences and potential for harm to the research subjects. This can lead to a whole other way of telling this story. In short, I am still not clear on which of these two main narratives applies in this case and I would ask MathSci to clarify: is it one, the other, both together, or one at one point, and the other at another point? Slrubenstein | Talk 00:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Mikemikev's concerns about Mathsci's proposal. It seems to be written with the specific intention of describing the hereditarian position as unfavorably as possible, particularly the last two paragraphs of it. Although the current history section isn't perfect, it's considerably more neutral than the revision that Mathsci is suggesting. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:35, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

There are at least 5 editors with serious concerns about this new section. But do note that this mediation will probably end soon, with this discussion being frozen. We will probably continue the discussion here: [15]. Just an FYI for all concerned. David.Kane (talk) 03:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I think the problems with Mathsci's version can be mended by simply changing a few wordings (I agree that much of it is not neutrally framed) and adding mention of some other studies on the other side of the fence. ·Maunus·ƛ· 09:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

David, I am not expressing serious conmcerns aout the new section. I am trying to give Mikemikev and Captain Occam and others a constructive way for them to help MathSci do a better job. If they do not like my suggestions, fine (though I would welcome an explanation as to why). Otherwise I am glad to see Matchsci continue adding his relevant and sourced content. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:03, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

E.g. I think Maunus's contributions are real improvements and show just how effective collaborative editing can work, building on and improving the work of MathSci. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The history section II (Shockley and Jensen)

This is the second segment of what the summary of the history. The third will probably and its aftermath treat the Bell Curve and the fourth the work of Rushton and Lynn. The last paragraph above would probably be merged into the following account of the revival of hereditarianism (1965-1980). The two sources, already mentioned on this page, are:

• William Tucker, The funding of scientific racism: Wickliffe Draper and the Pioneer Fund
• Adrian Wooldridge, Measuring the Mind: Education and Psychology in England c.1860-c.1990

In 1965 William Shockley, Nobel laureate in physics and professor at Stanford University, made a public statement at the Nobel conference on "Genetics and the Future of Man" about the problems of "genetic deteriotaion" in humans caused by "evolution in reverse", in contrast to the capacity for social management and organisation of early American settlers. Speaking of the "genetic enslavement" of African Americans, owing to an abnormally high birth rate, Shockley discouraged improved education as a remedy, suggesting instead sterilisation and birth control. In the following ten years he continued to justify discrimination scientifically, claiming it was not based E.O.on prejudice but "on sound statistics". Shockley's outspoken public statements and lobbying brought him into contact with those running the Pioneer Fund who subsequently provided financial support though the intermediaru Carleton Putnam for his extensive lobbying activities against equality for blacks, reported widely in the press.

The most significant of Shockley's campaigns involved the educational psychologist, Arthur Jensen, from the University of California, Berkeley. Although earlier in his career Jensen had favoured environmental rather than genetic factors as the explanation of race differences in intelligence, he had changed his mind following extended discussions with Shockkley during the year 1966-1967 spent at the Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences in Stanford.

In 1969 Jensen wrote a long and outspoken article in the Harvard Educational Review, "How Much can We Boost IQ and Achievement", arguing that racial minorities, because of genetic limitations in intelligence, should be taught, not through conceptual explanations, but instead by relying on their ability to associate rather than understand, i.e. learning by rote. He decried the "misguided and ineffective attempts to improve [the] lot" of blacks which would only result in "genetic enslavement" unless "eugenic foresight" was brought into play, i.e. population control. In this article Jensen revived the standard hereditarian claims. Shockley conducted a widespread publicity campaign for Jensen's article, supported by the Pioneer Fund. Jensen's views becoming widely known in many spheres. As a result there was renewed academic interest in the hereditarian viewpoint and in intelligence tests. Jensen's original article was widely circulated and often cited; the material was taught in university courses over a range of academic disciplines. In response to his critics, Jensen wrote a series of books on all aspects of psychometry. There was also a widespread positive response from the popular press — with the New York Times Magazine dubbing the topic "Jensenism" — and amongst politicians and policy makers.

In 1971 Richard Herrnstein wrote a long article on intelligence tests in The Atlantic for a general readership. Undecided on the issues of race and intelligence, he discussed instead score differences between social classes. Like Jensen he took a firmly hereditarian point of view. He also commented that the policy of equal opportunity would result in rigidification of social classes, separated by biological differences, resulting in a downward trend in average intelligence that would conflict with the growing needs of a technological society.

Jensen and Herrnstein's articles were widely discussed. Hans Eysenck defended the hereditarian point of view and the use of intelligence tests in "Race, Intelligence and Education" (1971), a pamphlet presenting Jensenism to a popular audience, and "The Equality of Man" (1973). He was severely critical of environmentalists whose policies he blamed for many of the problems in society. In the first book he wrote that, "All the evidence to date suggests the strong and indeed overwhelming importance of genetic factors in producing the great variety of intellectual differences which [are] observed between certain racial groups", adding in the second, that "for anyone wishing to perpetuate class or caste differences, genetics is the real foe".

Although the main intention of the hereditarians had been to challenge the environmentalist establishment, they were unprepared for the level of reaction and censure in the scientific world. Militant student groups at Berkeley and Harvard conducted disruptive campaigns of harassment on Jensen and Herrnstein with charges of racism, despite Herrnstein's refusal to endorse Jensen's views on race and intelligence. Similar campaigns were waged in London against Eysenck and in Boston against Edward Wilson, the founding father of sociobiology, the discipline that explains human behaviour through genetics. The attacks on Wilson were orchestrated by the Sociobiology Study Group, part of the radical organisation Science for the People, formed of 35 scientists and students, including the Harvard biologists Stephen J. Gould and Richard Lewontin, who both became prominent critics of hereditarian research in race and intelligence.

This disruption was accompanied by a high level of commentaries, criticisms and denouncements from the academic community. Two issues of the Harvard Educational Review were devoted to critiques of Jensen's work by psychologists, biologists and educationalists. Broadly there were five criticisms:

• Inadequate understanding of population genetics. Richard Lewontin pointed out that heritability estimates depend on the specific group and their environment: Jensen had confused heritability within groups and between groups. Many other scientists made the same point, including Stephen J. Gould, Walter Bodmer, Gerald Dworkin and Ned Block. Luigi Cavalli-Sforza and Walter Bodmer questioned Jensen's use of socio-economic status as a method of controlling environment. Jensen's inference of racial IQ differences from class differences was criticized by Sandra Scarr-Salatapek.
• Overestimation of the heritidary component of IQ scores. Mary Jo Bane and Christopher Jenks gave an estimate of 45% compared to Jensen's figure of 80%. Leon Kamin pointed out methodological flaws including Jensen's reliance on the twin studies of Cyril Burt. Critics were in agreement that the expression of a gene depended strongly on environment and hence so would the development of intelligence.
• Unjustitied assumption that IQ scores are a good measure of intelligence. Multiple problems were brought up by critics, including the difficulty in defining intelligence, the form of the tests, acquired ability in doing tests, the variations in IQ during a lifetime and the difficulties in administering tests to minority or disadvantaged children.
• Unjustified sociological assumptions in relating IQ to occupation. Bane and Jenks showed that there was not much correlation between IQ and income.
• Political criticism and insults from a broad spectrum of scientists. Many critics questioned Jensen's motives and whether his work was an appropriate use of public research funds. The Association of Black Psychologists asserted that this kind of use of IQ tests could result in "Black genocide".

Mathsci (talk) 09:07, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Can you be more specific as to who made the criticisms, and provide actual citations? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:00, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes, each point gets a fairly long paragraph in Wooldridge. In fact I was just going to add something to point 2 above about Burt's twin experiments. Mathsci (talk) 12:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This summary looks good to me, except for one thing: the five criticisms of hereditarianism listed at the end of it aren’t neutrally worded. For example, saying “Bane and Jenks showed that there was not much correlation between IQ and income” implies that the truth is that there is not much correlation between the two, while according to the APA report (which we’ve agreed should be the basis for this article’s perspective) IQ correlates with income pretty significantly. If you’re going to use this summary, I have two expectations about it:

1: These five criticisms should be more neutrally worded.

2: It should be made clear that some of these criticisms are no longer considered valid by the psychometric community. (Particularly the criticisms that IQ is not strongly heritable, that it is not a good measure of mental ability, and that it doesn’t correlate significantly with income.) Since we’ve agreed to base our article on the APA statement, and the APA regards these three criticisms as unfounded, our article should also.

If you change these two things, I’ll be satisfied with your summary as far as content is concerned. I also think it might be longer than necessary, but since we’ll probably be adding more content to the rest of the article also, I don’t have as strong of an opinion about whether it needs to be made shorter. --Captain Occam (talk) 13:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

quick comment: If we're going to mention Lewontin, we should also mention that some think his argument is a fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy Bpesta22 (talk) 15:34, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I have no objection to this - as long as we also provide a summary of Witherspoon DJ, Wooding S, Rogers AR, et al. 2007 "Genetic similarities within and between human populations," Genetics 176(1): 351-359 - which raise questions about Edward's argument based on a more detailed analysis. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Each of the five points was expanded at Slrubenstein's request to include all he names in the source. There's no problem changing the wording which was an attempt to summarise several sentences. However, any alternative wording should be chosen so that there is no need to cite research from 2007 or for that matter to suggest that Lewontin were correct, just that he had raised objections and thers were in agreement. After all I don't think an account of the history should enter into any detailed technical discussion of scientific matters. These are best left to elsewhere. Mathsci (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The history section III

Here is a brief version of this material - there should be "main article" links to Flynn effect and The Bell Curve. All that needs adding now is a short section on Rushton-Jensen and Lynn.

In the 1980s, the New Zealand psychologist James Flynn started a study of group differences in intelligence in their own terms. His research led him to the discovery of what is now called the Flynn effect: he observed empirically a gradual increase in average IQ scores over the years over all groups tested. His discovery was confirmed later by many other studies. Flynn concluded in 1987 that "IQ tests do not measure intelligence but rather a correlate with a weak causal link to intelligence".

In 1994 the debate on race and intelligence was reignited by the publication of the book The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray. The book was received positively by the media, with prominent coverage in Newsweek, Time, the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. Although only two chapters of the book were devoted to race differences in intelligence, treated from the same hereditarian standpoint as Jensen's 1969 paper, it neverthless caused a similar furore in the academic community to Jensen's article. Many critics, including Stephen J. Gould and Leonard Kamin, pointed out flaws in the analsysis and unwarranted simplifications. These criticisms were subsequently presented in books, most notably The Bell Curve Debate (1995), Inequality by Design: Cracking the Bell Curve Myth (1996) and an expanded edition of Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1996). In reponse to the debate, the American Psychological Association set up a ten-man taskforce, chaired by Ulrich Neisser, to report on the book and its findings. In its report, published in February 1996, the committee made the following comments on race differences in intelligence:

"African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests. In recent years the achievement-test gap has narrowed appreciably. It is possible that the IQ-score differential is narrowing as well, but this has not been clearly established. The cause of that differential is not known; it is apparently not due to any simple form of bias in the content or administration of the tests themselves. The Flynn effect shows that environmental factors can produce differences of at least this magnitude, but that effect is mysterious in its own right. Several culturally-based explanations of the Black/White IQ differential have been proposed; some are plausible, but so far none has been conclusively supported. There is even less empirical support for a genetic interpretation. In short, no adequate explanation of the differential between the IQ means of Blacks and Whites is presently available."

Mathsci (talk) 15:13, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The history section IV

Here is the final section for the history.

From the 1980s onwards, the Pioneer Group continued to fund hereditarian research on race and intelligence, in particular the two English-born psychologists Richard Lynn of the University of Ulster and J. Philippe Rushton of the University of Western Ontario, its president since 2002. Both have been closely involved with the organization American Renaissance. Rushton returned to the cranial measurements of the nineteenth century, using brain size as an extra factor determining intelligence; in collaboration with Jensen, he most recently developed updated arguments for the genetic explanation of race differences in intelligence. Lynn, long time editor of and contributor to Mankind Quarterly and a prolific writer of books, has concentrated his research in race and intelligence on gathering and tabulating data about race differences in intelligence across the world. He has also made suggestions about its political implications, including the revival of older theories of eugenics, which he describes as "the truth that dares not speak its name".

Mathsci (talk) 17:04, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This is reasonable, but is Rushton from England? -Bpesta22 (talk) 17:18, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Born in England. Spent his teens in Canada. Went back to England for his university education. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:27, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

moved discussions from mediation

I've moved open discussions from the mediation page to here, and archived them in mediation. They may duplicate ongoing discussions on this page - In that case we can either merge the sections or leave these separate as references. If I have missed anything that needs to be moved, please mention it here and I'll take care of it. --Ludwigs2 18:21, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

reintroduction of the nutrition section

the ulric neisser quote in the physiology section clearly necessitates a section about nutrition and its effects on iq-scores. the old "health and nutrition"-section should be reintroduced.mustihussain 18:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

A fair point. Why don't you add the health and nutrition stuff into the section (which I realize is quite rough) that is labeled Environment (on the theory that health and nutrition are part of one's environment). If it gets bid, we can always split it up into new sections. David.Kane (talk) 20:14, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

done.mustihussain 21:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

edits to the lede

What is the point in removing a quite readable summary by meaningless mumbo jumbo? Is this an attempt to keep readers uninformed by pulling the wool over their eyes? Why for example was the specific mention of biology, psychology, anthropology and sociology removed? Is that considered helpful? Please just leave the lede alone. As the paper by Gray & Thompson explains, very few people do research in race and intelligence and the article should not suggest otherwise. There was a group of researchers, mainly psychologists, who in 1969, 1994, and 2005 revived hereditarian claims and as a consequence precipated a reaction from scientists in other disciplines who countered those claims, sometimes in the popular literature or in public debate. There also seems to be no point in introducing undefined technical terms into a lede intended for ordinary readers. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 19:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I offered this up for discussion in the mediation, stated my reasons there, and tried to accommodate the objections that got raised (one of which that it was unnecessary to list out all the fields that work on this). sorry you missed that, and I'm happy to discuss these points now if you like. I don't, however, know what you're referring to by 'mumbo jumbo' - I did my best to fix some writing flaws and remove some excessive wording. do you have specific objections to what I did? If so, please list them out and I'll address them; if not, I'll try to address the concerns that you've raised here and re-insert the compromise version. --Ludwigs2 19:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

It just simply didn't make any sense at all - history turned upside down, meaningless technical terms, etc. Did you actually write it yourself? Mathsci (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

There was extension discussion of Ludwig's lead during mediation. None of us love all aspects of it. But, instead of a willy-knilly revert, please tackle the topic item by item. I will revert back to Ludwig's version. Which specific sentences do you object to? Again, I am always happy to improve the article, and I have some complaints about Ludwig's lead myself, but we need to discuss these things. David.Kane (talk) 20:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, it was totally unreadable, no matter what was discussed elsewhere. It was not a willy nilly revert. Ludwigs2 made a poor edit and so I did not allow it to stand. The confusion between the Bell Curve and Jensen et al was an example of how upside down things were. Almost every line had a problem. My own feeling is that the lede should be left for a while and the rest of the article improved. Certainly there's very little to be gained from interminable discussions on a few simple lines, which should be intelligible to an average schoolchild. That means we don't say cohorts or aggregates unless we explain it. And if the terms Causcasoid and Mongoloid are being used , then so presumably is the old term Negroid ... But what's the point of that? Mathsci (talk) 20:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I actually offered it as a compromise (and one that heavily favors your version of the lead). most of it was integration, a few bits were extrapolation, and I reorganized a bit. I was expecting it to be discussed and revised. --Ludwigs2 20:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I've been dipping in and out of this article improvement process, and now there seems to be a surprising amount of commonality between the two lede candidates, given the stridency of the arguments. It would be helpful to me if Mathsci (who seems to be also sitting partially outside the mediation process) could bullet the main differences between the two lede candidates, and explain why, on each difference, his idea is preferable. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:46, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

An excellent idea. Again, my purpose here is not to defend Ludwig's lead. My purpose is to defend a collaborative process of editing the more controversial portions of this article. I also think that there are specific places where Ludwig's lead could be improved. After MathSci provides his comments, I will add my own. Perhaps we will be in agreement! David.Kane (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

P.s. - Stephen, the mediation is over, otherwise I wouldn't be acting as an editor. As they say in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy "We have normality; We have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem." --Ludwigs2 21:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Copy-pasting of History section

(In a good faith effort to keep discussion organized, I have separated out MathSci's complaint about my edits of the History section from the above discussion about the lead. I hope this is helpful.) David.Kane (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

David.Kane copy-pasting the lede of History of the race and intelligence controversy directly into the main text of Race and intelligence without checking or adding sources is against wikipedia policy. Mathsci (talk) 20:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Which specific Wikipedia policy are you talking about? As best I can tell incorporating a sub-article is often (not always) done by copy/pasting the lead. But I could easily be wrong. David.Kane (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

When you include material in the main text WP:RS and WP:V apply. I've told you this now about ten times. Ledes do not usually require citations, because they are summaries of the main text. However citation for other readers to check assertions are needed for the main text. It's rarely the case that editors are allowed to do copy-pasting like this, which is deprecated, but if they do, they must provided citations and check all the new material afresh. That is standard wikipedia policy. WP:RS and WP:V apply to the main text. As simple as that. Mathsci (talk) 20:23, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Please see the specific Wikipedia policy here [16]. Allow me to quote:

“ There is no need to repeat all the references for the subtopics in the main "Summary style" article, unless they are required to support a specific point. The policy on sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability, says that sources must be provided for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations.

When adding material to a section in the summary style, however, it is important to ensure that the material is present in the sub-article with a reference. This also imposes additional burden in maintaining Wikipedia articles, as it is important to ensure that the broad article and its sub-articles remain consistent.

”

In other words, there was no requirement for me to paste in references, as long as I was satisfied that they were correct in the sub-article. Care to apologize? David.Kane (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Could the rest of you please take a look at the talk page for the new "history" article? Mathsci is being kind of difficult there, and I don't want this to turn into an edit war with him. --Captain Occam (talk) 04:41, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

regression to the mean

I just reoved some meaningless nonesense Mikemikev added about this. Let's make sure our articles adhere to the most basic standard of 10th grade science literacy, shall we? (genes become more average? Huh?) Slrubenstein | Talk 21:01, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Your failure to understand is not a good enough reason to revert. mikemikev (talk) 21:11, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

mikemikev, to be fair, I can kind of see what you were after (basically a more detailed explanation of the statistical effect in genetic terms). but good intentions aside, I think this edit did miss the mark pretty thoroughly. it sounded more like that old saw about dumb, beautiful women and smart, ugly men being mutually attracted to each other (which of course doesn't bode well for all the smart handsome men like us - probably why we spend so much time on wikipedia). Maybe if you talk out what you want in more detail we can get a better rendition of it? --Ludwigs2 21:16, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I put it badly. The effect is most noticeable when both parents have high IQ, or both parents have low IQ. After recombination genes which were previously recessive or not exerting an effect for whatever reason may become active, and they will tend to be more average. The effect is well known in animal breeding. mikemikev (talk) 21:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

well, you're actually referring to two different processes there. regression towards the mean (as a statistical concept) means that subsequent iterations of an otherwise unconstrained normally distributed variable are likely to be closer to the mean than the original. Breeding for recessive traits is a matter of selection (e.g. the intentional or unintentional selection of individuals with recessive traits for breeding purposes) which implies that subsequent iterations will tend to be more extreme than the original (since the mean will by definition locate along dominant genes, not recessives). Scientists breed white lab rats for important recessive traits - mix them with normal rats, though, and in two generations none of the white lab rat traits will be expressing themselves. or am I misunderstanding you? --Ludwigs2 21:48, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Let's look at this little piece of anti-science fraud:

• Regression towards the mean is a genetic effect

No, it is a statistical effect found in any random distribution

• observed for complex traits, such as IQ, as a result of polygenic inheritance.

No, it is observed for simple traits too

• The combination of genes causing high or low IQ's for an individual will tend to be more 'average' after sexual recombination.

This is utter and total bullshit that simply demonstrates Mikemikev's attempt - conscious or reckless - to destroy this article The combination of genes do not become more "average" in the individual. Rather the distribution of the genes becomes more random within the population.

But hold on, we are not talking about genes. no one has identified any gene for intelligence. Or Mike, did you think you were talkking about wrinkly peas versus smooth peas? The real issue here is the regression towards the norm in IQ scores. Remember the "data centric approach?" Let's start with the data. The data is not genetic, it is the results of different people's IQ scores. And they show a regression to the mean. But you know what? Even if all variation in IQ were caused by the environment you'd still have regression to the mean" That regression to the mean occurs tells us nothing about causes.

• Thus children of high or low IQ parents will tend towards the population mean.

Yippee! Mikemikev finally writes something that is correct!

• Rushton and Jensen noted that black children regress towards the population mean IQ of 85, while white children regress to IQ 100,

Redundant, if the means of populations are different, individuals will of course regress to different means.

• according to the magnitude predicted by genetic theory.

No. What do you mean by a "magnitude" of regresson to the mean? This is not predicted by genetic theory, but by mathematical theory in statistics.

• Environment only theory makes no regression prediction

A flat out lie.

All mikemikev is doing is pushing his own POV even if it makes us the laughing stock of the literate world. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I think you both may be confusing simple traits (which this is not about) and polygenic traits. For a polygenic trait, for example height, there are many, probably thousands, of genes which affect it. Some will be active in an individual and some inactive. When they recombine, different genes will be activated. For individuals at the extreme end of the scale, the offspring will be more likely to end up with a less extreme combination of genes. For purely environmental effects this is not the case, the offspring can go in any direction. If a horse breeder breeds two great running horses, the offspring won't tend to be so good. This is regression to the mean. mikemikev (talk) 22:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

• I mostly prefer Slrubenstein's version. But it needs a little more glue to warrant this "Thus". It works if the outliers with low and high measured IQ have recessive genes which are not expressed and these have values which are more average than those which are expressed - ie their genotype is more average than their phenotype. Typically, the expression of these hidden genes in children will cause an averaging effect. (I'm assuming the heredity model here, which predicts this effect.) Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
• PS Slrubenstein you risk falling below many Wikipedia standards for etiquette, which I can list if you wish. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
• And although I like the brevity of Slrubentein's version, Mikemikev seems to be correct. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
• I forgot to mention that this regression to the mean is exactly what we would expect if the genes are randomly distributed, but we select high and low IQ groups only on the basis of a subset of those genes - namely the dominant ones - with all genes being inherited equally. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

That's a nice theory, I suppose, but there's no research in the literature that defines what the genetic components are (we went over that a good bit in the mediation). they've identified a a few candidates, but have reached no real, solid conclusions. That would put your edit squarely in the wp:synthesis range, where you are taking an undeveloped theory that intelligence might be a polygenic trait, and combining it with a statistical theory that has not yet been applied to the genetics of intelligence, and drawing a new, novel conclusion about it. do you see what I'm saying? --Ludwigs2 22:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I need to tidy up my edit, I did type it off the top of my head. But the basic idea is straight out of Rushton and Jensen. I should have made that more clear. Let me rewrite it, I'll put it up here for comment. I really didn't think this would be contentious. mikemikev (talk) 22:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see it. In the mean time, I may remove the "Thus", which requires quite a lot of prior knowledge to see. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the point that Mikemikev is introducing ought to be covered by the article. It’s something that’s discussed by proponents of both the hereditarian and environmental perspective about the cause of the IQ difference, and it’s one of the main things that’s analyzed by structural equation models of between-group differences. When we were first discussing Varoon Arya’s proposed outline for the article, this line of data was actually something we agreed ought to be covered if we were going to use a data-centric approach, but it didn’t make it into the actual outline, so it hasn’t been added to the article itself yet. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:48, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Also: can we add a little more information about why this line of data is relevant? The point that Jensen and Rushton are making about it is that the degree of regression for both blacks and whites is very close to what would be predicted by Galton’s Law of Ancestral Heredity if there were a genetic contribution of the IQ difference. And proponents of the environmental perspective such as Nisbett offer their own explanations for how environmental factors could influence IQ in a way that mimics a genetic effect. --Captain Occam (talk) 22:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

well, let's make sure that it's tightly sourced - I have some serious SYNTH doubts about this material, and I want to make sure that it says what sources are saying, and is not an extrapolation of material in sources that says something novel. --Ludwigs2 22:59, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

There are two basic problems with Mikemikev's edit. The first is SYNTH. Mikemikev is extrapolating from his understanding of animal husbandry something about human intelligence. That simply does not fly. The second is that it is simple fiction. Yes, it is true that regression to the mean occurs when breading horses. But this is a very, very specific subset of a much more general phenomenon. You are making a logical error, that because you find regression to the mean in breeding horses, regression to the mean has something to do with genes.

Regression to the mean occurs any time you have a linear regression most commonly any time you find a bell curve distribution. If you have a thousand people take a true-false answer test, and have then answer each question based on a coin toss, the distribution of scores should form a bell curve (with a few people geting every answer wrong, and a few people getting every answer right). If a person at either extreme takes the test again, using the same method (flip a coin to decide whether to answer true or false) most likely their score will be closer to the mean. Now I have just given a texbook example to illustrate the principle, and it has NOTHING to do with genetics. Do you get it now? Sorry, Mike, I will slow down. D...O Y...O...U G...E...T I...T N...O...W?

Now, I am sure that Rushton and Lynn would like to imply that regression to the mean somehow supports their view - but by any standard this use of "regression to the mean" is a fringe view in that it simply contradicts any high school or college statistics text book. Fringe views have no place in this article

Newcomers to this discussion may think I am being harsh on Mike, even harsher than one should be, to editors who are basically SPA POV pushers, which we should all frown upon. The thing is, we discussed this during the mediation, it was all explained to Mike.

Stephen Streater is kind to me but misinformed. The version that I left, after deleting Mike's vandalism, was not "my" version. It was the version we arrived at through mediation, and which David Kane wrote, before mediation ended and Mike came here to sneak back in his ignorant POV.

I have one final comment: regression to the mean just is not a big issue in race and IQ research. In the "30 years" essay Mike uses as a source, one page is devoted to it. Even if it were not fringe it is trivial. People have been nagging MathSci to cut down his well-researched history of race and IQ research, as if we are short on space. Well, if space is an issue, I suggest we junk this entire section. Or if we must have it, let's keep it as brief as possible. It is not a major part of the debate. It explains trends in IQ score that are unrelated to race, heredity or environment, trends that you will find in ANY data set with a linear regression or bivariate distribution. We have more important things to work on. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I think David Kean's most recent edit (which i acknowledge involves the works of others including Stephen Streater) is a major improvement - I just reiterate that this is not "my" version but something quite close to what David kane originally wrote following mediation. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:13, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Comments: 1) I am a fan of MikeM and Slrubenstein. Surely, we can all work together to make this article better instead of fighting on the talk page. 2) WP:SYNTH problems are easy to avoid by using Nisbett and Rushton/Jensen (both of which are available on-line to all). Just describe their debate. 3) This has its own section because Nisbett gave it one in his Appendix B. 4) In terms of deleting section and/or adding sections, I would wait for a few weeks. If someone expands this usefully (as is being done with the Reaction Time material and the History material (excellent job MathSci!), then that is good. Any section that still looks like an orphan could probably go. But no need to make that call now. David.Kane (talk) 00:28, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Is it all right if I expand this section a little in order to provide a more detailed explanation of Nisbett's and Jensen/Rushton's viewpoints about this? There are a lot of sections in this article that I think ought to be filled out in order to more fully explain the data they involve, but it's probably best to handle this one section at a time, and this is the one that's being discussed currently. --Captain Occam (talk) 00:39, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes! Go at it! And I think that that applies to all the orphan sections. (Debate of things like the lead are different.) What we desperately need is lots of content of the Nisbett says X, Rushton/Jensen say Y type. All WP:NPOV of course. And the great thing about having these key sources on-line is that we can all check to see that the summary is a fair one. David.Kane (talk) 00:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

All right, I’ve expanded this section to provide a more detailed explanation of the data. I hope nobody else continues to claim that this data is synth and/or irrelevant, since I think it’s clear from the citations I’ve used that this topic is discussed by Nisbett as well as two of Jensen’s books.

The one topic I’m having a little trouble figuring out how to handle is structural equation modeling. This is discussed in depth by Jensen also, but as far as I can tell, Nisbett doesn’t discuss it at all. I also can’t find any other proponents of the 100%-environmental explanation who discuss it. In the interest of presenting all of the major lines of data about this topic, I think structural equation modeling needs to be mentioned in the article, but I’m a little uncomfortable about the fact that the only sources I can find about it are from hereditarians.

Everyone else, please don’t construe this as POV-pushing; the reason I’m not mentioning any environmental perspectives about structural equation modeling is just because I can’t find any. If anyone else can find an advocate of the environmental perspective who provides their own perspective about this line of data, by all means add it to the article in order to balance what I’ve put there about this already. --Captain Occam (talk) 01:50, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I think I see part of the problem here. looking at Occam's last edit, it seems as though the issue is being approached from the wrong direction. In fact, what we have is this: Jenson is making an argument in which he tries to reaffirm the genetic origin of the IQ gap by pointing out that not only do we observe the gap itself, but we also observe regression-towards-the-mean effects towards the values predicted for the gap. Jenson seems to think this can only be caused by genetic contributions (that is the thrust of his argument); Nesbitt disagrees, and thinks that regression effects can be caused by environmental causes. The 'regression towards the mean' thing is part of an argument used in a primary source to support a position in a scholarly debate; that means we can't present it as an established fact without violating synth. really, what we should be saying is something like this:

Arthur Jensen has used Galton’s Law of Ancestral Heredity to argue for the theory that genetic factors contribute to the difference in average IQ between races. Jensen's study matched black and white children for IQ and compared the IQs of their siblings, and found that siblings of black children had on average lower IQ scores than siblings of white children, suggesting that the two populations were regressing towards the different population means shown by the IQ gap Jensen holds that it is difficult to explain why environmental factors would cause IQ variance within families to differ in this way between races. Richard Nisbett recognizes the existence of this effect, but believes that it could be produced by environmental factors alone, such as parenting practices and subculture pressures. Further research by Jensen using structural equation modeling concluded that a model in which genetic and environmental contributions to the IQ gap are in roughly equal proportions best fit the data.

The difference here is that I've turned it around (appropriately, I think) so that the RTTM becomes part of Jensen's argument which Nesbitt reinterprets, rather than an important piece of information in its own right. see what I mean? --Ludwigs2 03:27, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Occam, this study by Turkenheimer pushes the environmental angle and uses a structural model: [17] At least two more recent studies, however, failed to replicate it. I can dig for those links, if you need them. BTW, I am impressed with the recent edits made to the whole article. Someone writes very well, and I was surprised by how accurate I personally think most of it reads now. Good work to whoever did that. -Bpesta22 (talk) 04:02, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Ludwig, I’m not sure if I understand your point. Is it that since the literature about race and intelligence only discusses Galton’s Law in the context of the cause of the IQ gap, for us to explain what it is independently of this topic would be synth? If that’s what you mean, then I understand your point, but I also think it’s beheficial for the article to explain what Galton’s Law is in general because it doesn’t have its own article here, and a lot of people seem to be unfamiliar with it. Making the article understandable matters also.

I also think that in keeping with our data-centric approach, we ought to regard the data itself as separate from the conclusions that are drawn from it. Jensen’s 1973 book from which this data is cited is just presenting the results of his study, while his argument for how this study supports the hereditarian model is presented 25 years later in The g Factor.

One other thing worth mentioning about this is that Jensen is only one of several people who have reached the conclusion mentioned here using structural equation models, so I don’t think this should be described as “Further research by Jensen”. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:00, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

My main point is that the 'regression' argument is not in and of itself a 'fact' or 'conclusion' about race and intelligence - it is an argument used by scholars advocating the genetic hypothesis, and it should be presented as such. Think of it this way, from a scientific perspective:

• There is a highly replicable effect (the IQ gap) that calls for explanation.
• Some scholars have asserted that the best explanatory theory is that intelligence has a genetic component
  • other scholars disagree, of course
• Some scholars point out that IQ in different races regress to different means, and interpret that as an argument in support of the genetic component theory
  • other scientists disagree with the interpretation that the regression effect necessarily supports the genetic hypothesis

The regression effect verifies the IQ gap itself (which is not unexpected), but saying that it supports one theory over another requires an argument that goes beyond the simple facts. For an analogy, suppose you have a (admittedly stupid) theory that red cars are always faster than other cars, and I disagree with it. You point to the (statistically replicable) fact that red cars get more speeding tickets than other cars, and use that to argue that red cars must be faster. The speeding ticket thing is itself a fact, but the interpretation that it supports the theory that red cars are faster is not a fact. I could easily argue that other factors might be more important with respect to getting a ticket getting a ticket than actual speed (e.g. noticeability, or personality characteristics of people who buy red cars...). In other words, saying that the regression effect exists is NPOV (scholars on both sides agree it exists); saying the regression effect supports one conclusion or the other is POV (scholars on different sides interpret the data differently). If we want to use a data-centric approach, it becomes very important to distinguish between data and the conclusions drawn from data to support particular theories.

I don't think we should get into a detailed description of Galton’s Law in this article. let it be a redlink, and you (or someone else) can build a stub or short article on it later. --Ludwigs2 06:36, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

“In other words, saying that the regression effect exists is NPOV (scholars on both sides agree it exists); saying the regression effect supports one conclusion or the other is POV (scholars on different sides interpret the data differently).”

I’m still not seeing how the structure I used is different from this. I cited Jensen’s 1973 book about the existence of the regression effect, which you’ve agreed is a fact rather than an opinion—that’s what the data is. Then in the next sentence, I explained Jensen’s argument in favor of the hereditarian viewpoint based on this fact, cited to a different book (The g Factor). And in the sentence after that, I explained Nisbett’s own interpretation of this data. The facts and the interpretations are in separate sentences, and cited to different books. How is that different from what you’re saying we should do?

I don’t have a serious problem with the alternate wording that you’ve proposed (apart from what I mentioned about the structural equation modeling being from more than just Jensen), but I would still like to understand what you think is problematic about my own wording. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:20, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry - I missed this discussion last night. I've made some comments about the particular wording in the intro in the similarly named section below, as this section is getting quite cumbersome. If you would prefer to carry on here, I can copy them back here. Stephen B Streater (talk) 08:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

David Kane's flurry of edits, problematic removals, and ground rules

I've made a small contribution to this page, but in what I consider to be a key area: balancing of the adoption studies by referencing some of the ones which Nisbett picks up on [18]. However, this small, well-referenced contribution was deleted by David.Kane (talk · contribs) in diff, which was followed by David Kane's deletion of another "Quality of education" section [19]. I realize he added at least parts of the "Quality of education" section later (although he certainly didn't add back my contribution), but that method of editing is problematic. Despite David's huge flurry of edits, the page doesn't seem much more readable. The Adoption studies section now doesn't introduce Eyferth and Moore. David doesn't use edit comments and doesn't note when he's removing or adding references. Let's adopt a ground rule of noting when references are removed or added. Another ground rule should be that if you're going to move a section, do it in a single edit, not two edits. Articlespace is not a sandbox/userpage and should not be treated as such. II | (t - c) 22:00, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

that's actually three ground rules, I think:

• Use descriptive edit summaries
• Note in edit summaries when references are removed
• try to move sections in a single edit

I'd personally agree with all of them, though I have to point out that the last is a pain in the ass. it's much easier to move a section in two edits (edit the section, cut the contents, save, edit the section before where you want to move it to, paste the contents, save), than to try to do it in one edit, which involves a full-page edit, a lot of hunting for text, and a much higher risk of edit conflicts. --Ludwigs2 22:33, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

II: Excellent ideas! Much of the past is due to my inexperience as an editor. (And, keep in mind, no one else volunteered to do the work that I was asked to do.) I agree that the adoption section is, right now, pathetic and that your contributions could be added back there. In my defense, I cut about 1/2 of the article. I like to think/hope that many editors agree that, overall, the effort was a success, but there is no need to have that fight now. We all agree that the article should be better! I will certainly abide by your ground rules going forward. (By the way, do you have opinions on the issues I raise above: term to use for the anti-hereditarians and use of hrvb citations?) David.Kane (talk) 00:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for the prompt responses. As far as moving sections in two edits, I don't see this as a huge hassle. You should think about what you want to do before you edit. If you want to move sections around, edit the entire article. It's harder to see the section-moving in context otherwise, which allows people to slip things in and out. But at the very least, if sections are moved in two edits, the edit summary of each must note when a section is being deleted or re-added. As far as "anti-hereditarian", that's a much better term than environmentalist and works until we find something better. Hereditarian is an established term in the literature, but I'm not sure if there is an established term for the environmental determinism group. Jensen et al like to use "culture-only" to describe that camp, but's not good because the word culture doesn't encompass the nutrition/pollution aspects neatly. As far as the harvard citations, transforming this article into parenthetical citations sounds like more work than necessary. Have you looked into Template:Rp? II | (t - c) 02:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Minnessota Twin Study

I find the table cryptic, as it specifies the race of the parents but not children. Can the table add these details without becoming unweldy?

I would be grateful if we added a summary of the Minnesotta Twin Study's conclusions. As i have sais before, the way to maintain NPOV is to specify that these conclusions are not the truth but the conclusions of the researchers and name them. But this kind of contextual information is important. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 00:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Completely agreed! Again, my apologies for leaving so many of these sections in a pathetic state. Perhaps I should have budgeted my time better? In any event, both Nisbett and Rushton/Jensen provide discussion. By the way, I am hopeful might be able to cite specific articles but still describe certain views to, say, "hereditarians" in general, without getting obsessed with listing each individual by name(s) in every other sentence. David.Kane (talk) 00:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Hey you did a good job juggling a lot of balls. Now is the time to fill in gaps and smooth out wrinkles. Since you agree, if you do not mind dealing with this when you have time I'd be grateful, Slrubenstein | Talk 00:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Slrubenstein: I owe you some favors so I will give this a shot tomorrow. David.Kane (talk) 01:59, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Undue weight given to hereditarian hypothesis

The section on reaction time is quite long and is more of a description of what reaction time is. Since an article on reaction time exists, there is no need for excess detail in this article. I propose deleting the section, along with the other primary hereditarian arguments such as regression to the mean, and summarizing the hereditarian arguments in a single sub-section. The problem is if we devote full sections to hereditarian arguments, we end up giving WP:UNDUE weight to the hereditarian position. So far when I look at the 13 sub-sections listed in the debate overview section, 10 of them are based on arguments favored by hereditarians. As such the article is not balanced and clearly violates WP:NPOV. Wapondaponda (talk) 01:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

No. The structure of the article largely follows Nisbett. (It does not follow him perfectly, but is fairly close.) Since Nisbett is an anti-hereditarian, in fact, he may be the most famous of the anti-hereditarians, organizing the topics consistent with his outlook is hardly WP:NPOV, at least from a hereditarian position. You may very well have a reasonable point about the length and repetitive nature of the reaction time section. I take no position on that. But, given that we just completed 6 (!) months of mediation, the most reasonable course is to allow at least a few weeks to see if this organizational structure is working. And, if anything, I think it clearly is! Surely, we can all agree that the History section is much better. (Of course, that is 99% due to MathSci's hard work. My claim is just that the current structure allows productive work like that to go on in a collegial fashion.) David.Kane (talk) 01:58, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Nisbett is responding to hereditarian arguments, so these are all still hereditarian arguments. There are few proactive environmental arguments, there is no section on stereotype threat, health, caste-like minorities or the Flynn effect. It is clearly biased. But since you wrote the initial article, I wouldn't expect you to see anything wrong with it. Wapondaponda (talk) 02:07, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Please read the article. You don't see a discussion of the Flynn effect? (Again, I am not saying it is a perfect discussion. In fact, I did not write it! But, by all means, you should feel free to expand that section.) Also, another editor just added several health/nutrition related references. These are listed in the Environment section. One of the goals of the rewrite was to group the various issues in some sensible way. We clearly don't want an article with 46 sections . . . David.Kane (talk) 02:15, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Which is exactly why we should compress some of the hereditarian arguments into a single section. Yes the Flynn effect is mentioned. but the Flynn effect is one of the most important arguments for an environmental influence on IQ. Surely if regression to the mean is given a subsection to itself, then so too must the Flynn effect. Wapondaponda (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I'll add that this same thought had crossed my mind as well (though not in any detail - just the thought that some of the sections looked like they could use combining). it's certainly worth exploring the idea, at any rate. --Ludwigs2 03:35, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

"Which is exactly why we should compress some of the hereditarian arguments into a single section."

Let's not rehash this argument again. One of the most important and time-consuming conclusions we reached in the mediation was that the article shouldn't be organized based on arguments for and against each position, but based on various lines of data. Muntuwandi, I know you never approved of this idea, but almost everyone else did and it's definitely what consensus supported.

However, I don't object to the article having sections about some of the possible environmental influences on IQ, if anyone wants to add those. Perhaps we could re-use some of the material about this from the version of the article that existed before David.Kane's revsions. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Jewish IQ?

There are at least a few studies showing the mean Jewish IQ to be around 110. For balance, should that be included? If people think it's relevant, I can provide cites here, but I'd rather not muck up the writing style by me editing what's there now.-Bpesta22 (talk) 04:10, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

This is covered by the "Significance" section, which we'll probably be eventually adding in some form. The reason I haven't brought up this section again yet is just because we have so many other currently active discussions already, both here and in the separate "history" article. --Captain Occam (talk) 05:22, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

There is already an article Ashkenazi intelligence, so an extensive discussion is not required in this article, but a brief mention and a wikilink to the article would suffice. Wapondaponda (talk) 07:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Regression to mean

I have taken out this text for the moment: Since the parents, offspring and siblings of an individual will have 50% of its genes, for any such trait these relatives will be on average 50% of the distance between the individual and the rest of its population. This principle applies to any quantifiable genetic trait for sexually reproducing plants and animals, not just traits in humans.

1. It is not true that parents, offspring and siblings have 50% of the genes. Even ignoring the small number of mutations, the sex chromosomes are very different in size, so females have significantly more genes than males
2. This assumes independence, which is definitely false in the case of identical twins, and is not obviously true at all without knowing a lot about how genes are chosen
3. It assumes traits are somehow linear in the number of genes, which is not true in general (though may be true for intelligence, but given that people don't universally accept the genetic basis for intelligence, I wouldn't assume this)
4. Species such as bees are more closely related to their siblings than their children, so this last bit isn't right either. See Ploidy for more details on this.

Stephen B Streater (talk) 06:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with the quoted text. Just basic population genetics. See Coefficient of relationship. --DJ (talk) 07:06, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are these four things wrong. Your wikilink makes it clear, for example, that the 50% relationship applies with diploid species (including mammals) - but insects and plants are not mentioned there. The deleted text specifically mentions animals (which include bees), which is incorrect. It also assumes no consanguinity - in general not true in humans. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:14, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

It's further completely inaccurate to say that siblings share 50% of their genes - they share 99%+, as they are both humans. I'm not saying there isn't something there worth saying, just that all the actual statements are false, and I'd rather have true statements. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Not only is Stephen Streater correct; the removet text is not relevant to Race and IQ. Including it violates WP:SYNTH. This is NOT the ploace for editors to forward their own novel theoris. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

SLR, if you read the linked article from Nature, you'll see that this is not a "novel theory". As DJ pointed out, it's a well-established principle of population genetics. I can provide several other sources which discuss this topic, both related and unrelated to the topic of race and intelligence, if you need additional convincing that Galton's Law of Ancestral Heredity is a well-established principle and that people who discuss it in the context of race and IQ are understanding it correctly. --Captain Occam (talk) 08:57, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Please pay attention to what I have said. Regression to the mean occurs anytime there is a linear regression or bivariant distribution of data points. ANY TIME. Your trolling, you are just trying to get me to waste my time by repeating what I wrote yesterday, and what was written during mediation, in the hiopes that I will get tired of your trolling and go away. Well, okay, I will repeat what I wrote yesterday. Since regression to the mean occurs anytime you have bivariate distribution, of course it will occur in a breeding population. Don't lecture me about population genetics and Galton's law. Nowhere have I questioned the validity of that. But you are making a disingenuous change. You are saying that because regression to th mean occurs in breeding population, it occurs only n breeding populations. Did you think we aare too stupid not to notice your slipping in that false twist on the principle? Yes, it happens in breeding populations. NO, that does not mean it happens only in breeding populations. So regression to the mean in IQ tests cannot be taken of evidence of anything concerning genetics.

I never accused galton of violating NOR - among other things, Galton was supposed to be doing original research.

Captain Occam, it is you, like Mikemikev, who is violating NOR. Not by postulating that regression to the mean occurs in bredding populations - did you really think I believed that YOU came up with that? No, I accused you of SYNTH. Do you know what SYNTH is? I suggest you read one of our core policies, WP:NOR. There you will learn that SYNTH involves drawing a connection between one theory or set of information and another, that is not in the source. So you posted an article on galton's law in Nature. But that article says nothing about intelligence or IQ scores or race and IQ.

The "novel theory" is your belief that Galton's law explains variation in IQ scores. It does not. Only someone who is ignorant of both statistics and population genetics would fall for that extraordinarily stupid assertion.

IQ scores in every population tested have a bivariate distribution. This means you will find regression to the mean regarless of the cause of the bivariate distribution. What needs explanation is the bivariate distribution, not regression to the mean. You are proposing that Galton's law explains it, without any evidence. But that is just your POV-pushing circular reasoning. Since you already believe that IQ is caused by genes, you know that the bivariate distribution is caused by genetics. But what is the evidence? What experiment has been carried out to demonstrate this? You say that Galton's law shows that genetics can produce a bivariate distribution of gene frequencies. But Galton's law says nothing about a bivariate distribution of I.Q. scores. And MANY other things can cause bivariate distribution besides the Hardy Weinberg principle, for example. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Debate assumptions

I think the debate assumptions section has become so short as to be uninformative. Could someone explain the reasoning behind cutting it so short. Wouldn't it be possible to improve it without removing the well sourced information. ·Maunus·ƛ· 07:44, 13 April 2010 (UTC)