Talk:Warsaw concentration camp

Hoax?

Regarding the recent edit war ([1], [2]) instead of duplicating arguments and discussion, I'd direct interested parties to Wikipedia_talk:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia#warsaw (this "hoax" is included in that list, and that inclusion is being challenged). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:58, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

The admitted presence of misinformation does not, of itself, determine the presence of a hoax. Nihil novi (talk) 10:02, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

No but being called it but RS does. RS call it a hoax.Slatersteven (talk) 11:49, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

RS are not the holy cows, and can be wrong. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

This minor camp is absent from most standard accounts of the Holocaust

Apart from lack of sourcing is this even relevant if it was not part of the Holocaust (I.E. not a death camp) why would it be mentioned? This (at the money) both fails wp:or and wp:undue.Slatersteven (talk) 09:01, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, can someone confirm this campo is mentioned in Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945?Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be an extermination camp to be part of the Holocaust; Nazi concentration camps were also part of the Holocaust (see The Holocaust#Concentration and labor camps). Now, whether this particular concentration camp is notable or should otherwise have a standalone page (WP:PAGEDECIDE), I'm not sure, not having considered the question before. Levivich 16:04, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

But if RS do not say it is, why do we draw attention to the fact they don't? It is RS that determine if it is part of the holocaust, not us/.Slatersteven (talk) 16:07, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

RS says it is. To answer your earlier question, I just checked, and yes, the Encyclopedia (which is available for free download at USHMM) includes an entry on it, Vol I, Part B, pages 1512-1515 (so basically I just verified Ref #1). That's WP:SIGCOV, for sure. (And anyway, a concentration camp doesn't have to be part of the Holocaust to be notable.) Levivich 16:11, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The question is "which seldom appears in mainstream historiography", does the source support that claim?Slatersteven (talk) 16:17, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia (p. 1514):

The existence of the Warschau concentration camp is hardly mentioned in standard accounts of the Holocaust. It was doubtless a minor camp in the large scheme of things, but it dispensed more than its fair share of suffering. Thousands of Jews fell victim there to the Nazi annihilationist labor policies. Of the 8,000 to 9,000 inmates who were impressed into the prisoner labor battalion of this camp between the summers of 1943 and 1944, 4,000 to 5,000 of them perished in the course of the camp’s existence, during the camp’s evacuation, and in battle or in hiding after liberation.

BTW, I think that even if it wasn't notable as a concentration camp, it's now notable for the hoax. Just Refs #1-4 each appear to be SIGCOV to me, without considering the other refs. Levivich 16:19, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd say, given the sourcing, it's fine to have this detail (historiographic assessment) in the article's body, put it's not necessary for the lead. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:55, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Expansion reverts

I have encountered two reverts by Slatersteven, who insists that my edits have been problematic. See here.

I have just finished translating the Polish GA article to English, incorporating some elements of the English article aready in place. The lead is, in my opinion adequate to the size of the article (ca. 90K); this can be trimmed en route and not reverted in a wholesale manner. I believe that a translation, with some even more sources than in Polish version, if definitely an improvement over what is now.

Slatersteven confused red links with interlanguage links, which have been added according to how they appeared in the Polish version of the article. There mostly refer to street names, but also some other areas where potentially an English translation might be created;

The first edit encountered technical problems, such as a cock-up with sfn templates due to doubling citations, and defined coordinates of the camp twice. These have been corrected before Slatersteven reverted me for the second time.

I have not encountered any "broken link" errors during the time the page was open; other problems ("and more") have not been specified, therefore, I can't say what is happening here. The problem that Slatersteven seemed to have was that I made one edit in bulk (+65K) instead of several consecutive edits, but there's nothing in the rules that prevents such bulk edits to be done provided they are good-faith and do not violate WP:PAG, which Slatersteven evidently even didn't have time to check i.a. because of the abovementioned confusion of interlanguage links. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:50, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, what I thought were broken links are links to foreign language pages, which are of little or not use to an English reader (hell some of it could be linked to English Wikipedia pages). Such red links also make the page look untidy. The lede goes into far too much detail on the subject. I would also say your edits do in general seem to consist of a lot that seems only tangibly related to the camp or OR. It looks like a copy and paste with no thought as to flow, syntax or relevance.Slatersteven (talk) 15:58, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the folks in Polish Wikipedia have deemed it eligible for GA status and the article has not since deviated much from that version. The criteria for GA in the Polish version are not substantially different from the English GA, so I don't see an issue at all.

which are of little or not use to an English reader [...] Such red links also make the page look untidy. You can always convert what you believe to be useless interlanguage links to plain text - that's not an issue warranting a full-scale revert, if it can ever be considered an issue. hell some of it could be linked to English Wikipedia pages Examples please?

The lede goes into far too much detail on the subject. Again, the case goes for shortening the what you believe to be an excessively long lead and not reverting the article.

As for OR and "only tangible relation to the camp": specific examples please; and even then if for you one or two instances of what you believe is OR (though I made sure not to make it) invalidates the whole translation, then you seem to miss the scale of what you argue to be a bug vs the features of the new, expanded version.

Tl;dr: WP:PRESERVE par excellence. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:10, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

We are not the Polish Wikipedia and we have different standards. As to [[WP:PRESERVE], you added far to much stuff for that to be workable. What evidence is there that "ordered to move all German companies operating in the Warsaw Ghetto there, submit them to SS control, and promptly evacuate the camp to the east; however, the idea did not prove to be popular, so it was postponed." for example?Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

It is in the "Genesis" section, para 2. That literally comes from the Himmler's order of 16 Feb 1943 [3], and is again a translation from Polish, with consultation with the resources that have been cited. If you have problems with the Polish version, feel free to correct it. I have seen the sources and they say what is written in the text. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:24, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

As to WP:PRESERVE, you added far to much stuff for that to be workable. This is not a good excuse to revert, either. We are supposed to exercise restraint while doing so. There exists no such thing as "preemptive reverting" nor "gatekeeping before I first review any of your changes", otherwise WP:BOLD is stillborn, or dead. Again, you can do your part and simply correct the passages you believe to be wrong.

PS. We indeed are not the Polish Wikipedia and we have different standards, but the gist of the standards remains the same. It's not that the Polish Wikipedia permits original research, allows citing generally unreliable sources without good justification for that or allows unverifiable information in. This is particularly true of articles that are on GA/FA level on the Wikipedias in respective languages, and we know that Polish Wikipedia is among the better maintained. Come on. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

We need the source here. Also where does that source say (quote please as I can't find it) text that supports "however, the idea did not prove to be popular, so it was postponed".Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I can't really insert the source without the source; but there you go: Andreas Mix 2005 paper, if you need the source there. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:41, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Btw, the first order from 9 Oct 1942 also orders to assemble enterprises in the concentration camp, it's just for certain sectors: armament workers, who work only in tailoring, fur, and shoemaking workshops. And this one was deeply unpopular, as seen in para 1 of the "Genesis" section. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:45, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I am asking you for a quote from the source you link to above, a quote.Slatersteven (talk) 16:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Now look how hard it is just to get a quote supporting one line, and imagine that for 600 lines. This is why I say there is way too much to discussSlatersteven (talk) 16:59, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Quote: Równolegle do deportacji ludności żydowskiej do obozu zagłady w Treblince dowódca SS i policji w dystrykcie warszawskim Ferdynand v. Sammern-Frankenegg zabiegał o uzyskanie prawa do dysponowania znajdującymi się w getcie zakładami, które na potrzeby komanda zbrojeniowego Wehrmachtu przerabiały wyroby tekstylne, skórzane i futrzarskie. W piśmie do placówek SS i Wehrmachtu w GG Heinrich Himmler zarządził na początku października 1942 r., aby natychmiast skupić zakłady "na miejscu" w jednym obozie koncentracyjnym. [...] planowano szybkie utworzenie w dystrykcie lubelskim "kilku zamkniętych przedsiębiorstw w obrębie obozów koncentracyjnych". The resistance of companies towards these changes comes from Kopka source, which I simply don't have with me.

Now look how hard it is just to get a quote supporting one line, and imagine that for 600 lines. This is why I say there is way too much to discuss. I will be clear here, you are doing it wrong.

If you decided to retain the old version until you review the new version (which is explicitly mentioned as a bad reason for doing reverts, see last bullet point), you are simply dismissing WP:BOLD. Unless the problems are extreme (and you haven't really made it clear to me), I ask you to revert to the new revision so that everyone sees it and makes appropriate changes, if necessary. That in particular is the case if you've decided the edit was a good-faith one (and I indeed did my best).

Besides, "checking 600 lines of text" smacks of assumption of bad faith. I mean, I am not going to sit for days finding all quotes to the sources I don't even necessarily have with me at this moment, after sitting for days translating and finding more of those. Let's not make a parody of WP:BRD here, particularly of the D part.

I'm pinging other editors who have participated in this article's edition to intervene: @Dreamcatcher25, Levivich, Nihil novi, Piotrus, Buidhe, Volunteer Marek, François Robere, and GizzyCatBella: Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

No I am invoking wP:brd, you made a bold edit, I reverted.

As you your quote, where does it use the phrase (or similar) "the idea did not prove to be popular, so it was postponed", we know it was postponed, the current version of the article says it. Your claim is that it was postponed as unpopular.Slatersteven (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

No I am invoking wP:brd, you made a bold edit, I reverted. As I said, you should have a good reason to revert before you click "revert". It's not like if someone made a bold edit, you have to revert, or you have special entitlement to do so.

As I said, it's sourced to Kopka. I can't quote from there because the libraries are closed at this time of the day, and I don't have the book. I won't be able to do that until at least tomorrow evening. What I only have are pages and a general understanding of how it sounded, but not what it exactly sounded like. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Regarding the disputed sentence „ordered to move all German companies operating in the Warsaw Ghetto there, submit them to SS control, and promptly evacuate the camp to the east; however, the idea did not prove to be popular, so it was postponed.” Kopka (pages 31–32) stated: Wzrost pozycji Himmlera oraz jego decyzje napotkały opór ze strony tych, którzy czerpali zyski z niewolniczej pracy pracowników żydowskich, oraz tych, którzy nie byli zainteresowani procesem wzmacniania imperium SS, na którego czele stał Reichsführer. Badaczka problemu Felicja Karay tak w skrócie scharakteryzowała reakcje na dotyczące kwestii gospodarczych plany Himmlera z 1942 r. „Plany Himmlera spowodowały powstanie koalicji antyhimmlerowskiej, w której skład weszły wszystkie organy władzy Generalnego Gubernatorstwa wykorzystujące dotychczas prace Żydow”. Then he mentioned those various actors and few lines later stated Jak czas pokazał, zamiary Himmlera z 9 października 1942 r. nie zostały do końca zrealizowane. Nie udało się skoszarować robotników żydowskich w jednym miejscu i nie powstał obóz koncentracyjny w Warszawie, skąd zakłady produkcyjne wraz z ich żydowskimi pracownikami miały być przeniesione do lubelskich obozów pracy SS.. Hope I've helped.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 17:52, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

My two cents: Szmenderowiecki's expansion was significant (3x - from roughly 20kb+ to 60kb+). There were some citation (sfn) errors, those have been fixed in the v2: [4]. Usage of Template:Ill is best practice, and WP:RED links are totally fine. While I see one fact has been disputed, a translated quote has now been provided. If it is still insufficient, that part can be tagged or removed, but one sentence is no reason to revert a major expansion, which (per wP:AGF) seems helpful. I have also reviewed the references. All additions seem properly referenced. The only one tagged by the bot as unreliable is from the older version of that article, to an Israeli-language YouTube video, and I think it should be removed. Others I'd question:

• possibly wpolityce, see inconclusive Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_328#Sieci_&_wpolityce.pl_&_associated_portals), (also, I AGF Szmenderowiecki's claim that this is based on Polish GAs, which implies it already passed some review and quality standards).
• Warszawa Express - Warszawski Magazyn Codzienny - very minor / niche Polish portals / news magazine
• www.suche-briefmarken.de - can anyone comment on this German website?
• Trzcińska 2002 has been added as as source. Let's remember that she is generally not considered reliable (although I don't think this has been discussed at RSN), although arguably we allow such sources to make claims about themselves. I'd suggest making it more clear when we cite her that she is the source (Trzcińska says...). That said, we should also keep in mind Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism_in_Poland#Amendment_(May_2021).

In general, I support the restoration of much of Szmenderowiecki's version, but I'd like to see further discussion of the sources listed above, not the least Trzcińska, and honestly I don't feel very confident personally restoring the version of the article that uses her book as a source for anything (and at this second I don't have time to do a partial restore). I'd not object to full restoration, since I think the expansion is generally a step in the right direction, but if anyone thinks some or all of the sources I listed above not reliable, those parts can be reverted and should not be restored (per ArbCom ruling) - but I'd like to stress that many other parts that Szmenderowiecki added and that are referenced to perfectly fine, reliable sources (Getter, Subotić, Mix 2005) are a net positive and should not be blanked. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:36, 15 September 2021 (UTC) PS. While Trzcińskia is not Irving, this chain of thought got me thinking of User:K.e.coffman, who is also quite experienced in this topic area, and may be able to offer some advice/thoughts on best practices on sourcing here, so let me ping her as well. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:44, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

To be clear about the usage of these four sources:

wpolityce: I wouldn't generally use it but it's an interview with Jan Żaryn, and I basically source to his opinion about how the process of resolving the dispute in IPN (where he was working at the time) went. I believe that's usable for Żaryn's opinion on the subject.

Warszawa Express: I couldn't find anything better than that, and at least that looks somewhat credible to me (unlike blogs). Essentially what I wanted is to show the photo of the plaque on Lasek na Kole, but when I came to photograph it and post it on Commons, the plaque... was torn out. So yeah, treat it like a gallery. Unfortunately, I'm not able to contact either Warszawa Express or the photo's author to ask for permission, so the photo is in the External links (courtesy https://warszawamagdalenymarii.blogspot.com/2021/02/ruiny-w-lasku-na-kole.html)

suche-briefmarken is just meant to show there is a postage stamp, because the one that is in the article has a dubious PD status, as do most other German postage stamps. As far as I could see, it was simply a catalogue, so usable.

sourcing to Trzcińska: not a fan of her, either, but that's what it went in the Polish version, and I only source the fragments related to her pseudohistorical concept, not to anything else. That seems to be a legitimate WP:ABOUTSELF usage, with the general framing that her concept runs counter the historical consensus. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:10, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki Thank you, I think you defend your case nicely. I have no objection to the restoration of your version, sourcing-wise. We should not be slave to the rules, exceptions, when justified and well argued for, have their place. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:17, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Can we please have English translations, we are not all Polish?Slatersteven (talk) 17:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Have Englishmen never heard about Google Translate? Hard to believe...Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 19:17, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

No, quotes should be translated from Polish. Here is the reading of what Dreamcatcher25 wrote (I don't have access to the book).

Kopka (pages 31–32):

Himmler's rise to his position and his decisions faced opposition from those who profited from the slave labor of Jewish workers and those who were not interested in the process of strengthening the SS empire led by the Reichsführer. The researcher of the issue Felicja Karay briefly characterized the reactions to the economic issues of Himmler's plans of 1942. -->

This seems to be about a general plan, not one specific to a Warsaw camp, correct?Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Himmler's plans resulted in the formation of an anti-Himmler coalition, which included all the organs of power of the General Government which used Jewish labor.

As time has shown, Himmler's intentions of October 9, 1942, were not fully implemented. The plan to house Jewish workers in one place failed, and no concentration camp was established in Warsaw. The production plants and their Jewish workers were to be transferred to the Lublin SS labor camps. - GizzyCatBella🍁 21:07, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

(responding to ping) Without having read any of this or most of the edit in question, all I can say is that a 65kb edit is too big. It should be broken up into much smaller pieces (no more than one per section, or maybe one per paragraph), so that other editors can easily revert and discuss parts of the edit without having to revert the whole thing or figuring out a partial restore. (Also, 65kb is too long for an article per WP:AS, but it can always be trimmed down later after any other content issues are resolved.) If entirely new sources are being added and they are controversial, it might be better to discuss the sources on the talk page first before adding content to the article that uses the sources, again so that we can separate the parts of the 65kb edit that need discussion from the parts that don't. Levivich 03:59, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

all I can say is that a 65kb edit is too big If this were somehow codified...

Re size: Well, I just counted the prose size via DYKcheck tool, and it gives me 42,387 characters of readable prose size (+5-7Kb more or less for quotes and bullet points in the article)

According to WP:SIZERULE you invoke, it's just between <40Kb (length alone does not justify division) and >50Kb (may need to be divided, chance increased with length) (WP:sizerule counts readable prose size). So the size of the new version of the article should definitely not be the issue.

If entirely new sources are being added and they are controversial, it might be better to discuss the sources on the talk page first before adding content to the article that uses the sources, again so that we can separate the parts of the 65kb edit that need discussion from the parts that don't. You can simply start from the new version and simply delete some paragraphs or sentences which you believe have problems, or rephrase them. There's no need to delete it before adding it step-by-step, unless there are some egregious problems that warrant such reversal and of which I am not aware of. Again, potential WP:COATRACKing may be dealt with by looking on the expanded version and seeing if something really has nothing to do with the article's subject.

If you allow to restore it on a per-section, or per-paragraph basis (which I will not be able to do unilaterally), I will do that. The text is open to scrutiny, it's just the initial treatment that I'm not fond of. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 07:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes I have read of google translate, but it is not a perfect tool, and just adds to the workload.Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

1. I agree with Slatersteven that big changes complicate things, but translating an article is usually done in one go and that's what we have to work with.
2. WP:BRD has been watched for the most part, so I suggest putting the procedural discussion aside.
3. The reasoning for using news media sources is solid. We should keep in mind that use of news media sources is limited to current or recent affairs, and that debunked sources are clearly marked as debunked.
   1. It may be acceptable to use RP for Tr. being assigned to some investigation for now, but I wouldn't use it, nor Polityka, for the 1988 testimonies, as that seems too close to the core of the historical discussion.
4. A bit too many red links. I'll cut those that refer to street names and churches, as their articles are probably not as relevant to this particular story as eg. biographies.
5. Otherwise well done on another translation from pl.Wiki. It's definitely an improvement to the article. François Robere (talk) 12:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

   @François Robere All red links are encouraged per WP:RED. I'd leave them all in unless we can make a case that something is not notable and should not have an article on Wikipedia. Sometimes pl wiki is too inclusive... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:19, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

• individual streets are generally not notable.Slatersteven (talk) 10:03, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

  Then the case should be made on Polish Wikipedia to delete the page. A mere translation of a notable topic in one language does not render the topic non-notable just because an average English speaker would not think it is notable - we're supposed to be a multilanguage encyclopedia after all. For comparison, see Template:Streets of Manhattan - a borough with a population not even exceeding Warsaw's, yet having expansive articles on individual streets (which is in a lot of ways due to Epicgenius's work). Pl wiki doesn't have articles on all Warsaw streets, either. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

  What they choose to do has no impact on what we do. moreover (and again) linking top a page the users here will not be able to read does not help them.Slatersteven (talk) 13:29, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

  moreover (and again) linking top a page the users here will not be able to read does not help them. Yes and no. Those who know Polish, or German, will benefit from interlanguage links. Those who don't, well, they don't lose anything. And even then Google Translate and similar services can give you a gist of what is happening behind these links. But, again, let's see what you are going to do in the sandbox. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:46, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The testimony is actually mentioned in other sources too: Kopka (1), Kopka (2), and Trzcińska herself; AFAIK Kopka also mentioned the testimony in his 2007 book and has largely dismissed it. I believe it is OK for us to simply mention that such testimony surfaced, but opinions on the testimony are also IMHO relevant, which is exactly what is done in the "Refutation" sub-section. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

To be clear, it's three days since the revert was made, and I don't really understand what we are waiting for in order to get the edit published and submitted to scrutiny post-publication, and whether there is consensus for its publication (two editors seem to agree with my request to get to the expanded version). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:44, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

• Publish. François Robere (talk) 13:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
• I would rather you used either this page or the sand box, and we can see if you have taken on abord any of the objections raised here.Slatersteven (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

  Let's start from the fact that there is no consensus so far for the objections you have raised to be remedied. Let it be done this way. You have the sandbox version here. Feel free to implement changes to the article as you see fit, I will monitor your edits and raise any objections at the talk page of the sandbox. Others are also encouraged to monitor the page. We will then determine if there is any more consensus to withhold the edit's publication. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

  A week has passed with no editing or comments. But maybe User:Slatersteven didn't notice your comment above as he wasn't pinged? Remember, folks, it's best practice to let your wiki-voice WP:ECHO... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:01, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

  Because I have no more to add, there is no consensus for this (as far as I can see).Slatersteven (talk) 12:28, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

  I thought the discussion would not come to a standstill after my last post, but it has nevertheless.

  Let's summarise your "no consensus" position then:

  - Slatersteven, well, you oppose the change until you check it all. I said that it's not a good reason for revert, pointing to the relevant essay, and I have proposed you to implement changes in the sandbox (none have been done even after you were aware of it so far, which is the moment you certainly were aware of that version).

  - Piotrus seemingly agreed to publish the new version;

  - Francois Robere also did so;

  - Levivich argued that any controversial sources must be first discussed on the talk page (none were specified apart from Trzcińska, to which I provided an WP:ABOUTSELF rationale and so far no one opposed this at all, even for); said that one edit is too long (no response on paragraph-by-paragraph addition proposal); and argued that the resulting text is too long, which it isn't by WP:SIZERULE; no particular stance on the new edit, however, aside from him wanting to scrutinize it more;

  - GizzyCatBella said nothing of the support/oppose, nor did DreamCatcher25 say much about that (but having in mind most of the article is a translation from the article which he rewrote back in 2016, I would argue he at the very least doesn't oppose it).

  - I obviously agree with my own edit.

  Even your argument about redlinking even doesn't have consensus here, as we here disagree on when to use interlanguage links. Plus you have not specified all problems, and I can't really guess what all of your objections are (the only actionable ones were with redlinkning and that first reference, the first of which has no consensus while the other seems so far to have been solved. It seems the ayes have it, both on strength and !vote count. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:45, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

What sandbox?Slatersteven (talk) 08:39, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

See link in the second sentence. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:17, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is consensus not to add (most). As far as I see, most editors supported the new version, and I think that Szmenderowiecki's assessment above is correct. If User:Slatersteven really feels otherwise, I'd suggest an RfC, but if there is no action for few more days, I think the new version should be restored. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:03, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

The second sentence is "I have just finished translating the Polish GA article to English, incorporating some elements of the English article aready in place. The lead is, in my opinion adequate to the size of the article (ca. 90K); this can be trimmed en route and not reverted in a wholesale manner. I believe that a translation, with some even more sources than in Polish version, if definitely an improvement over what is now" I see no link in that, can you please post it again?Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Szmenderowiecki/sandbox/Warsaw_concentration_camp Szmenderowiecki (talk) 01:29, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

"Consensus not to add" isn't how it works. WP:ONUS means we need "consensus to add". I don't see consensus either way. I still think it'd be easier to form consensus if the new material were broken up into smaller chunks. Levivich 15:40, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Levivich, Slatersteven But no one is arguing here about "consensus not to add". However, if those who argue the edit shouldn't be implemented can't make a good case of why this edit does not improve the article, it means that the WP:BURDEN challenge fails (see footnote 3 in the section). We are not the US Senate, and WP:ONUS is not supposed to serve as a filibuster tool against any changes to the article.

I'd say even more: the mere fact that the edit is large does not disqualify it, because it doesn't address the merits of the expansion and is a purely procedural argument. If the procedure makes life any easier for any of you, sure, I will try to make the change as suggested, but such argument alone scores rather weakly on the strength of arguments against some change. But again, before I implement it, I have to understand that everyone is on board with such a change, so as to avoid revert wars. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 01:56, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

OK first thoughts, why do we need to mention Hitler "created on the order of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler" and then in the next line say "The first person known to have come up with the idea of creating a concentration camp in Warsaw was Heinrich Himmler, head of the Schutzstaffel (SS)"?and then (In the same paragraph) "Four months later, Himmler returned to the idea as the plans for the demolition of the Warsaw Ghetto came closer," This is the lede, this kind of detail just clogs it up. This is all said in the first line, hell expand it to "created on the orders of and initially conceived by conceived by Heinrich Himmler". And that is just the first two paragraphs.Slatersteven (talk) 08:46, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

1. The fact that something was created by someone's order doesn't mean that the idea was first pitched by that same person (and by all indications, Himmler was the first).

2. The paragraph simply sums up the "Genesis" section, so obviously it would condense the main facts from the section. I remind you that you are free to implement changes to the article as you see fit, I will monitor your edits and raise any objections at the talk page of the sandbox. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:43, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Its still too much detail for the lede, it is words for the sake of words (as I said about this from the off).Slatersteven (talk) 10:45, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Expansion revert revisited

After a week's silence on the sandbox version of the Warsaw concentration camp proposed expansion (and since almost three weeks have passed since the time when Slatersteven first edited the sandbox version), I feel it's time for the editors to analyse if the proposed changes are worse or better. Here is the original version; the current version, as edited (almost) exclusively by Slatersteven, is here.

I invite users involved in the discussion of the revert to participate again and to assess which edits, starting from the original sandbox version, should be implemented, and which should be reversed. (The previous discussion has established rough consensus that an expansion as an idea is beneficial, though it has been submitted to review to correct any inaccuracies, misrepresentations or other mistakes). @Levivich, Slatersteven, Piotrus, François Robere, GizzyCatBella, and Dreamcatcher25: your comments are welcome.

(Note. As WP:DRNC proposes, the process of addressing potential concerns with the article's version/edit should last about a week, give or take a day. 19 days have been afforded to address any concerns. I don't believe there is any more sense to wait for the edit's publication, and that any improvements may be made while the article is in the open). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 14:16, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not going to choose between your version and Slater's version as if those were the only two choices. Looking briefly through Slater's edits to your sandbox, they look reasonable to me, but of course I don't know how the revised sandbox version compares to the current version of the article, so I can't say I prefer one or the other. For a third time, I invite you, instead of seeking consensus for a complete rewrite all at once, to simply make the edits you want to make to this article, but to break up those edits into smaller chunks (so not just one big edit but a series of small ones, one per sentence, per paragraph, or per section as the situation may warrant), so that others can simply change the edits they want to change, revert the ones they want to revert, and the rest can be kept as is, and then we can discuss just those changes that need discussion (rather than the entire article). If you and Slater have put together a sandbox version you both agree with, then I'd encourage you (both or either one) to incorporate those edits into the article--again, in small chunks, not all at once--so that others can step through and review them and change what they want to change, revert what they wants to revert, and the rest can be kept, and we can just discuss those changes that are controverted. (Without asking a bunch of people to read several long versions of this article.) Levivich 14:30, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I would rather they proposed such edits here first, so we can CE them before they are added to the article. There is no need to just do a huge paste job, when suitable material can be added to what we already have.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

That's fine with me too, either way. I'm not trying to be obstinate (and if I'm the only one everyone else can ignore me anyway) but I really liked how when I looked at the sandbox history I saw your changes, with edit summaries, which allowed me to efficiently review them (at least a preliminary review). It's the edit summaries explaining the specific changes that are most helpful. (And of course they are, that's why we have edit summaries in the first place.) When all the changes are made in one big edit, we lose that and it becomes a lot more work to manually look at every inline change and sort of guess/speculate/infer why it was made. I don't want to have to ask "why did you change X to Y?" a hundred times, you know what I mean? Edit summaries are awesome. Levivich 15:04, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

The lack of an edit summary, or its not-exactly-detailed explanation, on the other hand, is not a valid reason to revert an edit. True, you are encouraged to make a meaningful edit summary, but what is the edit summary for a 70K edit, which anyone is allowed to do, of course? "Massive expansion" is the best, and the shortest, what comes to mind (I anyway have only 500 characters to describe an edit in an edit summary). There is no requirement for any big addition to be split to smaller edits, which you seem to try to impose, and even if I were to add it in portions, it would mean replacement of whole chapters, which, given the attitude of Slatersteven ("why change some text to an imperfect expanded version if we have perfectly serviceable content", see below), would lead to just the same reverts and similar discussions. Basically, arguing that "I will revert the edit even though I trust it to have been done in good faith" is self-contradictory - either you revert because you believe something's fishy/you don't trust the editor or else you shouldn't revert.

But these, again, are arguments about procedure. I would really ask editors to focus on content. Let's not waste any more time on philosophical disputes on etiquette and simply get the article better. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I would like to share my comments with my own analysis of the version first posted to the sandbox and the final version, but first I'll address some questions/problems that have arisen during the discussion with Slatersteven.

• Slatersteven pointed to some problems connected with spelling and grammar and said they wouldn't copyedit "a huge wall of text when we have perfectly serviceable content". I'd note, however, that copyediting is a minor problem that can be dealt with with a pair or two of eyes. The copyedits should of course stay.
• Slatersteven proposed that we add text paragraph by paragraph, which would essentially mean trying to balance the quantity and quality of coverage of content and watching out for coherence while adding content. Given that the edit is almost 70K bytes large and involves new media, new text and sources, it would take longer to analyse the sequence of additions from the proposed edit than simply check the new proposed version of the article for any defects and replace the old text with the new one. So, answering propositions that I should add info sentence-by-sentence - I don't see it as a viable way of work, though I may reluctantly agree to do that if others insist on doing that (that is, I can, but I certainly prefer the other option). Besides, all of these discussions on how to add text, instead of which text to add miss the whole point of the review: instead of concentrating on any mistakes and inconsistencies and making the article better, we instead clash on the procedures, which doesn't lead us anywhere. Hopefully, we are not the US Senate, so let's discuss content instead of ways of introducing it.

Now, getting to the substance of edits (mainly deletions):

• Lead: Admittedly the original version of the lead was a bit on the long side per MOS:LEADLENGTH, as it was five full paragraphs long (plus an introductory sentence). However, the proposed changes to the lead omit the purpose for which the prisoners were located at KL Warschau in the first place and do not mention the way the camp was actually created, other than Himmler being the author of the idea. Particularly the first piece of information is important for anyone reading the article. What's more, given the exclusively Jewish nature of prisoners, other than the first 300 who arrived in Buchenwald, the addition of information that "at least 7,250 were Jews" in the context provided in the lead would lead readers to think that some 750-1,750 were not Jews, but in fact we are speaking of 300 people only.
• According to Bogusław Tadeusz Kopka, who authored the monograph on the concentration camp -> the original text contained the struckthrough text, which is important given that Kopka is the author of the only available monograph on the concentration camp which follows the mainstream historical interpretation. That's not a change I insist on making, but I find it desirable, as a reader might want to make research using Wikipedia as a starting point (which is how WP is increasingly being used).
• Street names were deleted from the article for whatever reason, which makes the article much less informative. The location of a facility is an important part of any article, and Warsaw being a large city, we have to specify streets. The rationale given was that "unless we have access to the map, it's useless". The access is actually there - just click on the coordinates at the top of the article, and, if needed, choose the map that best suits you. As for the fact that these create red links - actually they are even permitted in FA-class articles, and interlanguage links are not exactly red links.
• Deleted information on a potential gas chamber: with an explanation "Unsure this conjecture is not undue". The thing is, that's what you expect to find in a good encyclopedia: there are sources covering it, but none are certain, so the passage simply reflects the uncertainty.
• Deleted information on the composition of Jewish prisoners here. In fact, the origin of prisoners is present in the articles on Auschwitz, Treblinka (see graph) and Majdanek and is definitely information pertinent to the article (Treblinka and Auschwitz are both good articles).
• Deleted The demolition and salvage work were hard and perilous labor, carried out at a brisk pace with no regard to loss of life of the prisoners, so fatal workplace incidents were commonplace - explained as covered by article extermination through labour, though that's not exactly what the article is about. The linked article is about toiling to death (or rather, being forced to toil to death), while the deleted sentence also contains information about workplace incidents that were not related to exhaustion but simply carelessness on behalf of those organising the work.

In any case, I believe most of the edits made the article worse, and thus should be reinstated.

Answering Levivich's question on which edits I want: I want all of the text to be there, corrected for those changes I haven't mentioned or which relate to copyediting. And no, as you may read from the talk, we haven't agreed on the common version. I proposed to make it a side-by-side comparison, to which Slatersteven did not initially object, until some 3-4 days later, Slatersteven insisted that I should be adding text sentence-to-sentence, which I explained was IMHO not a good idea and a waste of editorial resources. No work has been done on the article since then. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:23, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Err, I said paragraphs, not sentences. And threw reason I did not object till 3 or 4 days later is because I had not picked up on those issues. This is why wall of text edits are bad, you may miss subtle werooers (and even spelling errors).Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Levivich's question on which edits I want Huh? I didn't ask any question. Levivich 17:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Notes regarding new version vs. old (see here):

• Keep "created on the order of..."
• If possible, add a map delineating the premises of the camp to the infobox. If not, keep the verbal delineation in the body.
• Change section name to simply "Terminology".
• Keep "previously occupied by the Ghetto".
• The paragraph on the possible existence of a gas chamber there should only reference WP:APLRS sources. Current and recent affairs, including the conspiracy theory, can reference general WP:RS as well.
• Keep statement starting with "successful escapes were rare".
• The phrase "fatal accidents were common" should be integrated into the first paragraph in "conditions" with an appropriate source.

François Robere (talk) 16:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

• UNless you have access to a map the verbal delineation is useless. What we need (and I thought we had) was a map.Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  The map is included in the external links. If it is needed on an Openstreetmap layer, you'd have to wait but you'll have it if you really need it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  The map is what we need and all we need. Lets try a test shall we To the north is is bordered by Bull lane, to the west by Websters way car park, to the south by Eastwood road and to the east by King Georgess close and Stile lane. What shape is it, just that what shape is it? Can you tell from that (not its size, just its shape)?Slatersteven (talk) 18:26, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  It is literally mentioned in the text ("of roughly rectangular shape"). As for the images, since WP:F expressly prohibits uploading fair-use maps unless the map is itself subject of discussion, I can't do that (and what's the sense anyway in a 350x300 map whose legend is barely visible. But we can always direct folks to the maps through some text like "(see external links for detailed maps)". Or, yes, we can do OSM stuff, but that will take quite some time.

  As for the hypothetical you present above: alone, without any geographical reference, no one is able to guess. When you narrow it down to a village, town or city (and you additionally have link to coordinates of the object, which we do), you are suddenly able to more or less guess it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

  So no then you cant (which is my point, you need to know the area or to have a map to make anything of this information), and a map does not have to be huge. We only need a small map showing its shape. We do not need a detailed map. We are only talking about shape and size, not its internal layout. So a map is of more use to the reader.Slatersteven (talk) 09:22, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

  May I ask you about the problem you see with an internal link to external links sections until the svg/OSM file is prepared? Thanks. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

  I have said above what they are I shall repeat it here. They are in Polish., this is the English Wikipedia, so any reader coming here will be able to read English, they may not be able to read polish.Slatersteven (talk) 10:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

  You said that we are only talking about shape and size, so then the legend is not needed at all, but it's not as if the legend somehow makes it harder for the people to read the shape and size, does it? Say "we need a freely licenced map standing inside the text, whatever its quality", and this will be done. However, insisting that linked maps are somehow deficient is beyond me. They could just as well be in references if you want them to be inline. Btw, what's wrong with this aerial photograph? (Plus WP:RSUE says explicitly that English-language sources are preferred over any other language sources when available and of equal quality and relevance, which they aren't. At least yet). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Is there any chance that these massive proposed changes could be broken down into more manageable pieces? When I see "(+65,860)" my first reaction is "what???". That's a ton of text and changes to parse through. Volunteer Marek 21:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Considering that you can swipe out 85K of text in a matter of three minutes, basically saying WP:TNT, or another 22K deletion in 10 minutes here, or reducing the article 3x also in a scope of 3 minutes, or, going to the other side of the spectrum of changes, restoring 80K of gradually deleted content in one fell swoop (regardless of the merits of such deletions), all of these in chunks of several thousand or tens of thousands of bytes and with some rather generic edit summaries for my taste (admittedly "massive expansion" is a generic summary, too, but again, assuming that the new text is faulty until properly reviewed is a good way to WP:ABF), it's rather hypocritical to call me out for "abruptness" or "creating non-manageable, impossible to scrutinise edits". The latter is of course bullshit, because all edits are scrutinisable, which is what you do on GA/FA reviews when they are big enough; some just take a little longer to check than the others. Hell, we've been spending more time on talk than is needed to scrutinise the edits.

The answer is actually given somewhere above, if you need it. The other answer is that the fact that the edit is large is alone not a problem; i's the content (or removal thereof) that might be problematic Szmenderowiecki (talk) 00:45, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

That was a needlessly combative response. Levivich 02:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki - That was a piece of wise advice. Your massive suggestions need to be broken down into the smaller, easy-to-manage sections and addressed separately. After one section is dealt with and changes accepted or not, then start another, please. This is too much to go through all of this at once (yet again). - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Szmenderowiecki, if you read the edit summaries and the relevant talk page comments for those of my edits you link, I'm confident you'll be able to figure out the difference. Volunteer Marek 04:06, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

I know it's a bit of make-work, but it can be helpful and a best practice to break a big edit into several (dozens...) of smaller chunks with edit summaries. Which is why I never work in some sandbox, but on live articles, and most of my major edits have some edit summary. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:49, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is easier to revert bad work than to try and fix it. When its this huge (and much of the material seems trivial at best anyway) why are we going to do that? When we can just ask you to fix any problems before adding it. By the way, assuming the text was not faulty and just inserting it was the issue here, not one of ABF, quite the opposite. I assumed you had at least done basic spell checking, you had not. It was only when I started to try and remove (what I felt) was trival details that I came across the spelling, grammer and syntax errors. So if we are at fault it was to wp:AGF too much.Slatersteven (talk) 09:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is easier to revert bad work than to try and fix it. It doesn't mean it's recommended, though.

assuming the text was not faulty and just inserting it was the issue here, quite the opposite. I assumed you had at least done basic spell checking, you had not. If you want to imply bad-faith editing, go straight ahead to the administrators' noticeboard, just ping me. The other thing is, in a 5000+ word addition, you will invariably find a few mistakes appearing at random, and that's nothing to shame others about. We are not perfect, though we are trying our best (or so I hope). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:43, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

You are then one who made an accusation of ABF " assuming that the new text is faulty until properly reviewed is a good way to WP:ABF)". I was responding to that by pointing out in fact I had AGF by assuming you had at least spell-checked your additions.Slatersteven (talk) 10:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

If, in your opinion, spell-checking is determinative of whether any given editor's efforts are good faith, I rest my case. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 08:10, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

What? That is not what I said. You stated editors acted in bad faith, I pointed out that if anything we assumed good faith too much, it was a response to your accusation. That does not mean that your edits were not made in good faith, it means that I should have not assumed you had even checked your spelling correctly (which then could have been another reason for the earlier rejection of this content). You raised ABF and so forced a defense and explanation as to why it was not an ABF. I really think you need to drop this now as you are making it way too personal.Slatersteven (talk) 09:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

We seem to be misunderstanding each other. I don't say editors were acting in bad faith, it's that the attitude which you cited as triggering the whole discussion was an example of ABF. Neither there is such a thing as "assuming too much faith" - either the edit is done in good faith or maliciously. There is no middle option here. In any case and to get to EOT, next time when you revert 65K of someone's work (which is to say, you reject the fellow editor's effort), think twice before clicking the "undo" button, and consider the amount of work one had to do to research the article's topic. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

For some reason I still fail to grasp, editors are in rough consensus that an expansion is beneficial (see previous discussion, which the current discussion did not dispute) but insist that adding it in one fell swoop somehow invalidates the assessment. If that makes your life any easier, so be it. However, when this article's expansion is resolved, I urge all those people who have insisted to split the edit into smaller chunks to codify it in at least an essay, or preferably a sentence in the guideline. Current policy does not forbid making even 65K edits so long as they generally conform to the basic criteria of creating the encyclopedia, even if the editor is misguided in some places (that's where others' input comes). That is the rule you seem to enforce, but you've only done so by pressuring to do that via majority vote, rather than arguing it in defects in content or appropriate conduct guidelines (and I still don't buy the notion an edit, however large, can't be reviewed at all - I've been doing that, you folks seem to have done the same, and even Slatersteven has done that in the sandbox but stopped midway; at most it may be somewhat more difficult to do that). However, to avoid any accusations of uncooperativeness, I will grudgingly produce n consecutive edits (as if what we are talking about is an all-or-nothing approach) in the next hour or two.

As for the actionable edits, the proposals put forward here relate to two matters: the street names and Francois Robere's edits. Nobody contested the latter's proposals, and will thus be implemented. They presume that most of the edits made by Slatersteven are restored. Levivich says they, on the first look, are reasonable, though when provided with the rationale for reinstating the edits, no one intervened or explicitly disagreed except for the streets point (see below). However, since Levivich's rationale was too brief and included no analysis other than a general preference for the edits, it can be anything from WP:ILIKEIT to an argumented analysis which Levivich has not written yet. Since it's Levivich's duty to explicitly address the points if he believes them to be off the mark, I'm not going to second-guess it. This means that the explanation so far has presumed consensus, and thus Slatersteven's edits will get reverted back unless a better rationale is produced, which is when we will return to talk in case of differing interpretations. Noting APLRS concerns, Kopka's book certainly is good enough. As for the Polityka article, the statements are properly attributed to Halina Wereńko, a prosecutor involved in investigating German wartime crimes, and Regina Domańska, a historian of Warsaw (who apparently published an article in 1992 on the topic, but I can't access it). APLRS does not ban such articles so long as there's no RS challenge, which there shouldn't. The challenge was about notability, but that's for another matter.

The street names debate is frankly the least important part of it but editors seem to be at loggerheads there, too. The names will be removed from the lead. As for the body, due to the lack of a satisfactory explanation over how the available non-free maps (or the aerial photograph already in the article) are inadequate to illustrate the purposes for which the map is proposed to be introduced, the names should stay pending addition of its free equivalent, if that is what Slatersteven wants (so it seems from the above discussion).

Please do not revert/change any additions en route to avoid edit conflicts. Thank you. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 17:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I have said I see no value in the names, so do not add them. I will revert if I wish, as wp:brd is clear. It is down to you to make a case, and some of what you want to add has already been objected to. I would advise rather post any suggested changes here.Slatersteven (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Add to what we have, do not just do a cut and paste. If both of these are followed we will not have to copyedit a wall of textSlatersteven (talk) 17:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

As an alternative (if this is too onerous for you) add one paragraph at a time to the article, and wait until we have an agreed version before adding another. That will make copy editing easier for the rest of us.Slatersteven (talk) 17:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this is a reasonable and constructive way forward. Regarding street names: Slatersteven, I admit there's limited value in names alone, but it is a common way of delineating areas in urban landscapes both in, and out of Wikipedia (including by relevant RS). What's more, such delineation could be used as a guide for preparing or locating a map for the article, RS/APLRS permitting. Given that it's not a lot of text and it does have some use, I suggest we keep it in the body at least for the time being. François Robere (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Or just create the map, if it is so easy to use, use it. In fact if it is just being used as a kind of "place holder" to create a map, keep it in the sandbox.Slatersteven (talk) 18:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

An extremely stupid question: if that's so easy to create, why haven't you still done that yourself? I mean, OK, I will do that, but if you find a map useful, you could have just as well sat with OSM layers. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:18, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

That map did not seem to contain most of the streets named in the text. By the way, this is why it would be hard for me to do it, I do not even have access to a map of Warsaw to use. You could not find a good one, despite knowing warsaw.Slatersteven (talk) 10:13, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

And to illustat why names a useless and a map is not, I just tried to find them on a map, and it was not easy as they are quite far apart, at least on google maps.Slatersteven (talk) 10:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Also is it s Anielewicza Street or Mordechaja Anielewicza Street?Slatersteven (talk) 10:25, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Something like this https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Warsaw_Ghetto.png, but this is far from acceptable, it is just an example (I.E. it actually shows the area of the camp as a line).Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, that's very easy. At the magnification needed to illustrate the whole camp's area, we won't be able to see all street names (on Google maps) because a lot of them are local roads. OSM offers a better opportunity. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:32, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

So? We do not need to see the street names if the objective is to show its area.Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

First, while it is not absolutely necessary, a guide repeating the same information won't hurt and even may help. Remember that images should ideally provided with alt text for accessibility reasons (will do), which the street enumeration does pretty well. There's also this tool (already in external links) that does the job brilliantly. As for OSM map (it's preferred to Google Maps because of copyright and that stuff), I'm doing it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 09:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Well as I could not even find some of the streets, no it is not a good tool. As I said this just adds words.Slatersteven (talk) 10:08, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I've substituted the Google Map for an OSM version. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 11:17, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

We now have a map whose caption contains the same information. We certainly do not need this twice.Slatersteven (talk) 15:17, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Actually no, because, as has been said, we need alt captions for those who don't allow images to be loaded or can't see them normally for whatever reason. If you don't have the street outline mentioned in text, simply any person who requires appropriate accessibility features (bigger fonts, for example) will not be able to magnify the image because I only have so much resolution on my computer, and neither will be able to get the outline on the maps that will be specially catered to those people, if they want to check it there. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Crud on a stick, which part of "add 1 paragraph at a time and let's work on that before adding another" is hard to understand, one of the objections was having to CE a wall of text. Slatersteven (talk) 10:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Numbers

"The Encyclopedia on Camps and Ghettos says that in total, some 8,000 to 9,000 inmates were held there."

"20,000 people died"

Those two do not tally, as one source is claiming that twice as many people died there as were held there.Slatersteven (talk) 17:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Ohh wait, one was unsourced, I shall remove the unsourced estimate. Can users please read wpor and wp:v.Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I am still very concerned we have one source that gives the total number of deaths as twice that of the total number of inmates (especially as lede information) I am going to revert as it seems iffy..Slatersteven (talk) 17:58, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

What is that "against reliable sourcing" you are referring to? The two sources which give authoritative estimates is the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos and Kopka/IPN, who wrote a monograph which represents the mainstream view on the camp. They differ in methodology (one counts prisoners only while the other figure counts prisoners+folks executed in the walls+others who might have died due to camp-related reasons) but both estimates are used (France24 report on KL Warschau conspiracy theory uses IPN figure). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:23, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

What does the IPN say, as I find it hard to see how they can say twice as many people died in the camp as it had inmates. Your edit seems to suggest it include people who were not inmates, and were killed in the vicinity, is that the case?Slatersteven (talk) 18:27, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Correct. They counted prisoners and non-prisoners alike. You know, the camp had no non-Jewish Polish inmates, so it would be strange if they gave a number of 10K Poles dead where none could die in the first place. Most importantly, IPN does not dispute the number of inmates. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:35, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

So were these deaths direclty related to the camp, as in part of its operations. Or just people who were killed in the ruins around the camp?Slatersteven (talk) 18:47, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Since the scope of the article is about the camp's prisoners as well as the Nazi execution site operating in the camp, and given that the prisoners and SS-men were both involved in the process (the former in burying the corpses and the latter, apart from normal camp duties, in executing the people, including Poles and those hiding in the Ghetto's ruins), I'd say that yes, it was part of the camp's operations. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Is it, since when?Slatersteven (talk) 19:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, the article in its ca. 23KB form contains a section called "Executions in ghetto ruins", which contains the detailed assumptions lying behing Kopka's 20K estimate. The main article is actually a separate one, which is not the scope of the article.

As for when it was introduced in the article, it certainly existed before I started editing the article, and as far as I can track the article's history, the earliest form of such section exists since 4 Sep 2019, when Icewhiz was rewriting the article after blowing it up, when the hoax came to light. The section remained ever since and has not been questioned as to its purpose in the article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 19:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

That is 2 paragraphs that linked to another article, in other words, they are related, but not the same. So not this is not really within the scope of the article. You need to read wp:lede.Slatersteven (talk) 19:38, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Well, I read WP:LEDE but I don't see any applicable provision that would argue for exclusion of a perfectly valid estimate by Kopka. Moreover, if it's not within the scope of the article, the content shouldn't be there in the first place; however, no one objected to the section as adequately referring to another aspect of the concentration camp. Since the lede must first and foremost summarise adequately the content of the article, and additionally, because the lead already contains the mention of the execution site in one separate sentence, the estimate surely belongs to the article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 20:42, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The lede is a summary of important parts of the article, it is not a newspaper-style leader. This takes up a fraction of the article.Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

In fact, the example in the WP:LEDE actually shows the newspaper lead which is one-two sentences long and contains one death estimate and the encyclopaedic lead which is more detailed and contains 3 (!) death estimates, using different criteria. Compare the Bhopal disaster reporting: Toxic gas leaking from an American-owned insecticide plant in central India killed at least 410 people overnight, many as they slept, officials said today. and The official immediate death toll was 2,259. The government of Madhya Pradesh confirmed a total of 3,787 deaths related to the gas release. Others estimate 8,000 died within two weeks and another 8,000 or more have since died from gas-related diseases.

If anything, the example provided in LEDE clearly favours introducing more estimates, even if we have to condense them. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:28, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Those are estimates of deaths from a specific incident, these are just estimates of death in the area. They are not the same.Slatersteven (talk) 12:34, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

In a sense, yes, but all these 20K deaths are, according to Kopka, all attributable to the camp's activity. Since the former Ghetto area was a no-man zone, there were only two working facilities: Pawiak Prison/Serbia prison (see the building to the south-east of the camp on the aerial photograph, [5] here), and the camp. According to IPN's estimates, 37K people died in Pawiak, but these folks are not counted to those 20K Kopka says have died. Since no one could live there (the area being essentially a huge construction site, apart from Pawiak/Serbia, which stayed), there's no other factor which would inflate the deaths.

I will quote the passages from Kopka, just wait for some time. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Not in the lede, this is not a signicinat part of the article.Slatersteven (talk) 10:07, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Death and prisoner count is certainly important. I'd propose to mention the death numbers in the infobox instead. The one-sentence paragraph looks awkward. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Please do not, again they are (as far as I can tell) not part of the camp's operations, no other source link them, and adding them only causes confusion. The body covers it well, but it can't be covered by one sentence in either the lede or the infobox. It tells us nothing about the Camp. And again wp:lede is clear the lede is not a leader, it is a summary of significant parts of OUR article, not of the topic.Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

No other source links 4,000-5,000 death estimate, either. And obviously it does tell a lot about the camp, namely its size and the proportion of survivors. The number of prisoners also does that job too, but then we are speaking of places where people were supposed to die.

I don't understand capitalising OUR, I'm not trying to own the article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Folks, we are at an impasse. Please break it. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 10:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki and @Slatersteven - please pause editing until ArbCom clarification - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Warsaw uprising

"The idea of the camp was revived once again after the fall of the Warsaw Ghetto. " seems to contradict (in the lede) "On 5 August 1944, the camp was captured by the Battalion Zośka during the Warsaw Uprising, liberating 348 Jews who were still left on its premises." how could it have been liberated before it was created?Slatersteven (talk) 18:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

There's no contradiction. The Warsaw Ghetto ceased to exist following the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, when it was totally destroyed (the Ghetto was created in Nov 1940). Warsaw Uprising started in August 1944, so obviously there's no temporal connection. The word "its" refers to the camp and not the ghetto. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

If the idea of the camp was revived after the rising, it did not exist at the time of the rising, so could not have been liberated at the time of the rising.Slatersteven (talk) 18:34, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

You mistake the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (Apr-May 1943) for the Warsaw Uprising (Aug 1944). Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:36, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes I figured that out. But we did not make that clear with the text as you added it.Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven - You figured it out now?! - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:36, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, as I was not aware there were two.Slatersteven (talk) 12:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

You didn’t know either!? Hmn..

PS - Can I suggest a book -->(God's playground) that will make it more comfortable to maneuver Poland-related topics? - GizzyCatBella🍁 12:58, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

This is why we need to be clear in the article which one we are talking about, as there were two. This article has to be written for people like me, people who do not know. Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

True. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:05, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

In my case I assumed that the two were one and the same (as I know about the latter, and was vaguely aware of the former, but not aware of when it occurred). This is why we need detail, and not vague and imprecise information.Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven - I understand. Don't be discouraged from editing Poland-related areas. Let me be clear that your input is appreciated. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Gas Chambers (and the issue of one particular source reliability - title edited by GizzyCatBella)

Given that the issue of gas chambers at the camp resulted in what RS has called Wikipedias longest hoax I think we need a source saying they existed to even imply they might have is not enough. Given the propagandising of this page in the past, we need to be extra careful what we include.Slatersteven (talk) 13:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I have made clear we are not speaking of the same gas chamber (the original Polish version unfortunately does not make the disclaimer). The one that figures in the hoax is the one purportedly located in the Warsaw West railway station. The one(s) which probably existed (but we are unsure it did, as neither Domańska nor Kopka nor Wereńko say that they have definitively been built) and which, even if they existed, were really minor, was operated on-site. The sources that say they might have functioned are the ones provided in text (themselves basing on reports of NSZ and Wereńko), all from either reputable historians or, in case of Wereńko, a prosecutor who was investigating Nazi crimes just after WWII (until the first investigation was closed in 1947 for political reasons).

So to answer the question: "Did KL Warschau operate gas chambers", the answer is not "no" (as it would have been suggested by the lack of any mention of the gas chamber), but, according to RS themselves, "Maybe, but certainly not the one you have heard of in the news". Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

And as I said, that is not to my mind good enough, they did not say there was one. We need to be really careful given the history of this page, more so than would be usually the case.Slatersteven (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

If we want comprehensive coverage on the camp, we must be mentioning all major details pertinent to the article (and this is certainly a major detail, as gas chambers normally existed in extermination camps and there were such in Majdanek, but not in Płaszów). What you are suggesting here is to dismiss RSes simply because some other guy quoted a bullshit story that no one cared to notice for 15 years. But that's not policy-based reasoning. If the account is reliable and verifiable, it should be included (we have three different people talking of them, so that clearly establishes notability of inclusion). (If you have something against reliability of any of the three people, let me know).

As for Trzcińska's supporters misquoting that passage: let them be damned. Pseudohistory will spread regardless of whether we include the paragraph or not. It is anyway our job to reduce the amount of bullshit in circulation by providing reliable accounts and not by suppressing those that might be misquoted to imply something the text doesn't. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 15:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Is an unsubstantiated rumour a "major detail", or a minor bit of hearsay?Slatersteven (talk) 15:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, I'd say it this way: you are begging the question. If you frame it as an "unsubstantiated rumour", then of course we don't normally need it but the text you've deleted is clear about what were the reasons for speculation on the gas chamber: some witnesses but also National Armed Forces reports claiming it existed and Wereńko's findings about Zyklon B cans found on the camp's premise. Regina Domańska does dismiss it as a rumour without appropriate reliable sources for that. Kopka, on the other hand treats it more seriously and evaluates the possibilities for the existence of the gas chamber, which he says is plausible but, even if it were the case, it didn't kill many people. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

The problem is it is a bit undue, as it seems to me we really have no real evidence, and even proposnts seem to admit that. There maybe a justifcation for one line, but really no more than that. But (as I said) given the whole gas chamber farago I think we need to be very careful.Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven - you wrote[6] --> quote: what RS has called Wikipedias longest hoax. What RS allowed in this topic area claimed that ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

They are in this article already, but OK [[7]], this one just says it was a 15 years hoax [[8]].Slatersteven (talk) 15:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Article that is not allowed to be used as a source due to the ArbCom ruling, keep this in mind - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

HAs arbcom said they can't be used?Slatersteven (talk) 15:53, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven -->Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations

The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard.

Note - I’m challenging it to be used as a source. (please remove it) The press article (incited by the globally banned user) is not a RS. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

As a source for what? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:07, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Mentioned not RS is used in the article 3 times. Currently as number 63, 64 and 65. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, 64 and 65 is the same article, so it's now only the same story reported by two different outlets: Haaretz and the Times of Israel. The only thing the story references is: the label of Benjakob (can actually be used in WP:ABOUTSELF manner, and it is attributed), and the fact that it received media attention for having the old version stating 200K Poles died in purported gas chambers. The upcoming expansion also refers to opinions of Grabowski and Dreifuss, which are also appropriately attributed.

Just because the now banned Icewhiz is involved doesn't mean that the sources distorted someone's opinions or that the basic facts (essentially that we let the bullshit stay here for 15 years) stop being true. You might have had a feud with him (and he got banned), but that's not a justification to remove whatever story contains the nickname "Icewhiz". As this challenge was, in my humble opinion, only triggered because Icewhiz, whom you, ahem, didn't particularly like, tipped Haaretz on the story and not on the merits and the accuracy of the factual background of the story (for which we only sparingly cite it, in fact), I say that the challenge does not hold water. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

1. The discussion was closed for being filed in a wrong venue.

2. As for why we cite Haaretz, because it was their scoop. All other stories ultimately refer to Haaretz as the source of the scoop, so it makes sense for us to cite the original article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 18:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki --> Note - I’m still opposing the use of article (Haaretz[9]) narrated by a globally banned user as a source. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Also look at the top of this talk page if you want a couple more souces.Slatersteven (talk) 15:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

You seem not to interpret the ArbCom ruling correctly. It's not that any source that is non-academic is not permitted; it's that if a non-academic source's reliability is challenged, it must not be included until the consensus overrides that challenge. We can reference the Haaretz article for quite a lot of facts and its opinions (Grabowski, Dreifuss), just as we do. We don't quote the Haaretz article for the actual composition of the camp, though, or even for the death toll.

FYI Wikipedia internally categorises it as "Type 4 false statement", and says it's technically not a hoax because the adding of information was probably not to deliberately deceive people about the KL Warschau story, even though the article seems to imply that might be the case. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I’m interpreting it correctly. I’m challenging that source. Please gain consensus before using it. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:10, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Even though it has been here for ages, it is long standing content. So no, I think you need to get consensus to change long standing consensus.Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven - Well, you think incorrectly -->..is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus. It does not say when is added. Please remove that article since I’m challenging it as far as it’s reliability - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

If you are going to quote rules at people, I suggest you read them.Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Are you telling me I didn’t read them @Slatersteven? Seriously? - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

No I am telling you you have not read them properly.Slatersteven (talk) 16:37, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven Okay, I looked again, still came to the same conclusion. @Szmenderowiecki You asked for clarification so let’s wait. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:44, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Well as I have asked for clarification lets wait and see.Slatersteven (talk) 16:47, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

This is why we can't allow rumors and If but and maybe type content.Slatersteven (talk) 16:16, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I have asked for clarification at arbcom.Slatersteven (talk) 16:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

For convenience: the link is here Szmenderowiecki (talk) 16:31, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki Thank you, clarification will be helpful. - GizzyCatBella🍁 16:36, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven and @Szmenderowiecki - The discussion has been closed [10] (wrong venue) GizzyCatBella🍁 18:06, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

And I have no idea where the right venue is, maybe an RFC here is all we can do.Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

@Slatersteven - Frankly, I would be surprised if you convinced editors (assuming they will be willing to engage in this) that a story narrated by the banned Wikipedian, therefore full of likely stains is okay to use as a source for the article related to the Holocaust.

PS

There are other sources widely available. GizzyCatBella🍁 19:18, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

So do you want an RFC or not?Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Do you maintain that a story narrated by the banned Wikipedian is a RS? - GizzyCatBella🍁 11:28, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

For me, treating the story as "narrated by the banned Wikipedian" when you have no proof that Mr Benjakob is Icewhiz is a gross misrepresentation of the story and assumption of bad faith on behalf of the journalist in question, whom you imply not to have done any fact-checking of their own before publishing their scoop. It is also my opinion that Icewhiz's participation alone is not enough to render an article unusable. You can of course start an RfC, no problem, but I think that if your purpose is to have the Haaretz article removed, have in mind that IMHO you're facing long odds. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

It's crap journalism. What do you need it for that you can't use better RSes for? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:08, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

The better RSes being? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 01:49, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki. The RS's present in the article.

PS - Now @Szmenderowiecki - I would like you to explain why this banned Wikipedian's misleading narrative delivered to the press is so essential to you? Can't you use other sources written by historians? What historical material do you desire to reference using Icewhiz's story? - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:07, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

There are no RSes present in the article that refer to this particular passage (about 15 years of misstating the nature of the camp) among the other 60 or so, apart from Haaretz and the Times of Israel, which bases on Haaretz's story. If you have another source that tells just the same stuff, I will be happy to consider it. (obviously any of these must be from 2019 or later, when the hoax/false statement/whatever was exposed to light in the press).

Besides, I don't care about Icewhiz's narrative because we aren't citing it. The facts are: we messed up with the article, a now banned editor went to tell that to the press, it verified his claims and published the news story on the cock-up. It sparked interest from other newspapers, which did their own research or based their (more or less sound) opinions on the findings (as in the case of Russian govt Rossiyskaya Gazeta). These newspapers naturally refer to the Haaretz story as the source of their deliberations, so it makes sense to give the original source. Ad fontes, amigos. So when you ask the question of What historical material do you desire to reference using Icewhiz's story?, my answer is: none, because we aren't referencing Icewhiz nor are we referencing any historical material using the article. I hope you don't object to the finding that there was a false fact published here for 15 years, do you? Nor do you object to the fact that Benjakob called it "the longest-standing hoax" (not whether it was a hoax). If you don't contest either of the facts, there should be no controversy.

Piotrus, given that you were rather unfavourably mentioned in the article and since you were contacted by Mr Benjakob for the story (and the author didn't seem particularly convinced by your arguments), it would make sense to distance yourself from this Haaretz article. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:42, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

No, because that was only Icewhiz’s story. Obviously, no historical sources would state that because the knowledge regarding the Camp changed over the years as more information became available. The past development of this article reflects this as well. The original author wrote the article 15 years ago based on the material available at the time. Icewhiz invented the story that the article was written intentionally as a hoax which is not true. That was discussed already [11]. - No, we can't use globally banned "Icewhiz" and reprints of his story you presented above as a reliable source. (I can’t believe this is even being argued here). - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:05, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

When the article was written back in 2004, there were quite a few sources available on the topic: Berenstein (1967); Edward Kossoy (published 2004), Rutkowski (1993) and Rajca (1976); none of them mention KL Warschau's gas chambers, or even approach to 200K number. If someone had actually bothered to look for the literature and compare the historians' work here with the newly printed Trzcińska's book (2002), we might have avoided the situation. An editor who would have written an entry rather well would have had second thoughts about introducing a source appearing in one article only.

"Hoax" is indeed how Icewhiz referred to it, but it's really semantics. I don't say it was deliberately entered into WP, so in WP standards, it's correctly described as content that might not be a hoax. But the story itself is a deliberate fabrication. We can easily say that the content based on a hoax (commonly understood, because most of the readers don't delve into internal analyses) stayed there for 15 years. As for the rest, I believe I've made my argument and I haven't got much to add. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 03:21, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Do you have prove that Trzcińska's story itself is a deliberate fabrication ? - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:49, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• @Szmenderowiecki: See previous discussions on the semantics of "conspiracy theory" and "hoax".[12][13][14][15][16] François Robere (talk) 10:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Appropriate amount of time to examine sources

@Slatersteven - I'm starting to have concerns with your approach to editing this article. On Nov. 5th, 2021, at 17:04, I performed an edit[17] citing as a source an article by Christian Davies - "Under the Railway Line".[18]. 2 minutes later, at 17:06, you reverted my entry[19] with an edit summary "Which source says 20,000 perished AT the camp?".

The estimated time to read the source is - 12 minutes, 53 seconds [20]. Could you be more cautious and apply a suitable amount of time to properly examine sources going forward, please? Thank you. GizzyCatBella🍁 17:59, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

I think Slatersteven is familiar with the article (he's been editing it anyway for quite some time) and he does know where the estimate comes from. Davies doesn't interpret it very correctly though, because 20K is the number of deaths attributable to Gęsiówka, but some of these were shot outside the camp by the camp's staff (for example the ruins of 27 Dzielna street house, picrelated in article) and then the corpses were brought to the camp for further operations (cremation or burying).

For the best understanding of what is 20K deaths, it's best to use the original source (rather than a retelling of the source), which is Kopka's 2007 book published by IPN, pp. 16 and 120. I haven't found a digital version, but I have seen a paper one, which is unfortunately in selected libraries. Dreamcatcher25 seems to have the paper version, so ask them in case you aren't sure. Btw, his quotes will be useful to resolve the dispute of whether to include Kopka's estimate in the lead. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 21:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki - I'm not impressed hearing from you what you think as to why Slatersteven reverted me without accurately checking the source. I'm also not impressed at all with you performing your own analysis (WP:OR) of the WP:RS and examining Davis's interpretation. No original research is one of three core content policies in Wikipedia and you should know it by now. Information in articles must be verifiable in the references cited, that's how Wikipedia works. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:20, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, I simply comment on the fact that, even though I disagree with him in a lot of aspects (several open threads of the talk page are only confirming this), I believe that his revert in this respect was sound (though it was provided with a wrong short description, because Davies in general an RS and he uses the words as you introduced them). The reason why the revert was sound is that Kopka's book is simply a better source than Davies's article, and since the 20K estimate comes from Kopka, we should go ad fontes, i.e. instead of stating from third parties what Kopka was writing in his book, we can, and should, quote Kopka for his own words.

As for WP:OR, well, some facts are known, and basic common sense logic still applies (if they were killed on Dzielna street, it was not on camp's premises -> not all of 20K people were killed at Gęsiówka). It's not that I wanted to introduce these two sentences to the article itself. I just say, given my knowledge of what Kopka was talking about, whether Davies accurately reflected his theses, and in this particular case he somewhat misstated them. That does not render Davies unreliable though, just that we'd have to use WP:MEDRS/WP:APLRS-quality sources for specific details of how the camp itself was functioning. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 00:04, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

No, we say what RS’s say not your “common sense” @Szmenderowiecki - GizzyCatBella🍁 02:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

In that case, use Kopka not Davies, since Kopka's a better source than Davies. Why hear something through the grapevine if you can get straight news? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 02:48, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

To me both are equally reliable. You are welcome to add Kopka next to Davies if you wish. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki, GizzyCatBella At page 16, Jan Żaryn in his Preface to Kopka's monograph, wrote:

In the years 1943-1944, as it seems, at least 20,000 prisoners died in the camp, including around 10,000 Poles.

At page 120 Kopka himself wrote:

KL Warschau also became a symbol of the extermination of Poles during World War II. In the camp area, as well as in its vicinity, in the restricted zone, inmates of the Pawiak prison, prisoners of the Gestapo detention center on Aleja Szucha, as well as Warsaw inhabitants caught during the street round-ups were executed. Their bodies were burned on open-air pyres and in the camp's crematorium [...] It is estimated that the death toll of KL Warschau amounted to a total of about 20,000 people (these were the victims of the camp itself plus those who were executed in the camp vicinity, and near the camp, in the restricted zone, mostly anonymous).

If you need other quotes from Kopka’s book, let me know.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 13:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

RfC: Haaretz article on errors in WP article about the Warsaw concentration camp

User GizzyCatBella has challenged, per WP:APLRS, the inclusion of this article by Haaretz, which was the first one reporting on the issue of deep flaws of the article, with the rationale that the press article (incited by the globally banned user) is not a RS. (see also diff for removal of the source from the article and the above sections of the talk page). The "globally banned user" in question is Icewhiz, and they indeed tipped off Haaretz for the story. The discussion of the same source on the APLRS's talk page was closed with prejudice for being started in a wrong venue and was not assessed on the merits.

Is this Haaretz source reliable for referencing the removed passage? Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

Courtesy pings to @Slatersteven, Piotrus, Volunteer Marek, Levivich, François Robere, and Dreamcatcher25:, who have participated recently on the talk here (though not this particular discussion).

• Yes, absolutely. There are several problems with the challenge to begin with. Given the comments that GizzyCatBella made on the article (that Icewhiz probably co-wrote the story and was the main source for it, and therefore, by the fruit of the poisonous tree principle, we should dismiss the story as well), these would only hold true if we either assume unprofessionalism on behalf of the author of the scoop by not independently verifying information provided by Icewhiz (if anything, extensive linking in the article suggests the opposite) or by assuming that Mr Benjakob is Icewhiz, for which we have no evidence. I would also say that this challenge does not allege any particular factual error made in the article that would disqualify its usage for the referenced passage, in a footnote, so I'd dismiss the challenge based on lack of specified errors. I hope the challenger addresses these points.

At the same time, there are several reasons why this article should be used and should not be substituted, only complemented by others. The Haaretz article was the first one that actually reported the issue, and this sparked the debate over what WP recognises as the longest standing false statement ever written here, and, incidentally, over Trzcińska's claims about 200K Polish deaths in a gas chamber that never existed. It was also reputably published, Haaretz being Israel's newspaper of record. While the author does editorialise somewhat on what happened in the article, he got the facts right, with maybe some minor mistakes that do not influence the overall value of the article.

It would be also relevant to note that GizzyCatBella and Volunteer Marek were involved in several ArbCom complaints against Icewhiz (or that Icewhiz complained about them), which raises questions, given my knowledge of the history of their relationship, is simply about purging any mention of Icewhiz, however sound, from the project, which is not by itself a legimitate reason for exclusion. My hunch is IMHO confirmed by this edit, where GizzyCatBella deletes press mentions of this article for being excessive and unnecessary references to press outlets that reprinted or summarized the same article (the narrative of banned Wikipedian), though the Press template says nothing about such restrictions (the edit has been reinstated). Also worth mentioning is the fact that the base of this article, before I started expanding it, was made by the now banned user, too, after he blew it up due to the false statement from Trzcińska appearing as fact and being the basis around which the old version of the article revolved. To more or less understand the importance of it, it's like some blatantly antivaxxer content stayed in the HPV vaccine article for 15 years. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:16, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

• With regards to the basic questions and not any particular edit: Yes, the source is reliable on this matter. It's been discussed and vetted ad nauseum, as was the hoax, as was Icewhiz, and I've seen no policy-based rationale to revise our coverage of either. As for the rest, I suggest reading Ealdgyth's comments here. François Robere (talk) 23:38, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki you wrote above - Quote - Given the comments that GizzyCatBella made on the article (that Icewhiz co-wrote the story...Where did I say that Icewhiz co-wrote the story? Strike that promptly. - GizzyCatBella🍁 23:40, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

a story narrated by the banned Wikipedian, therefore full of likely stains is okay to use as a source for the article related to the Holocaust. and a source that has been written under the influence of a banned user (after he was banned) and quite possibly partially drafted by them is not a RS. (see ArbCom talk).

I will modify the comment to specify that he was probably co-authoring the piece, but the gist of the description still remains true. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 23:46, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

@Szmenderowiecki

1 - don’t modify your comments after they were responded to, just strike what I never said or quote what I said exactly.

2 - The author wrote the entire piece based on what banned Wikipedian told him (narrated) therefore wrote under his influence. The author also mentioned in the article that Icewhiz remained anonymous, so quite possible he gave him his narrative in writing. That’s what I meant and I maintain that a story told to the press by the banned Wikipedian is not a WP:RS. It could be mentioned somewhere that it happened as it is on talk page but we should stay away from relying on that article especially because other sourced are widely available. - GizzyCatBella🍁 00:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Re 1. I explicitly warned about the modification of my own comment to better reflect your position, which I did. Because it only consisted of inserting words, there was nothing to strike through. I didn't know about the inserted markup, though, so I'll use it, no worries.

Re 2. Gotcha, though the implication that the article is full of likely stains and the assertion that the article was quite possibly partially drafted by them gives rise to some slightly different conclusions than those you've presented in your explanation. There's a subtle difference between "consulting a source for the article", which is normal and is usually explicitly mentioned in the press article, and "letting them draft parts of the article", which implies some degree of authorship of the article Icewhiz hasn't been credited for. Besides, you allege that the article is full of likely stains, which implies that Mr Benjakob has done a lousy job, but you've presented no evidence of that so far. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 00:19, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

No, I didn’t say that. "Full of stains" presented by the banned Wikipedian. Stop interpreting what I said your own way please. GizzyCatBella🍁 00:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

OK, so if it's not the article but only Icewhiz's point of view which is at fault here (sorry for misunderstanding), the objection is then moot because we don't cite Icewhiz for facts. The passages we draw the facts from appear in outside Icewhiz's quotes, so it should be presumed Icewhiz had no input there. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 01:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• Yes, Haaretz is generally considered reliable, with some caution around using it for the Arab-Israeli conflict, but this does not appear to have any relation to that area. That would mean that, even if they used a source that may not have been particularly reliable, we presume that they appropriately verified and fact-checked unless there is actual evidence to the contrary such as clear factual inaccuracies. No such evidence has been presented here. The fact that a banned Wikipedian was interviewed for a news story does not impact the general reliability of the source; journalists deal with potentially unreliable people all the time, and those who write for reliable sources are presumed to know how to properly deal with that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 00:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
• No - absolutely not. A banned Wikipedian who rushed to the press (in this case Haaretz) after he was banned to tell his fabricated story of founding a "hoax" (this article was never proven to be intentionally written as a hoax.[21],[22] That’s Icewhiz’s story) should not be used as a source. Period. There are plenty of trustworthy sources written by historians available. We don't need a tale delivered to the journalist by some Icewhiz to be used as a source. - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:45, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

PS - Anyway, that's my firm stance as far as this particular source is concerned and I'm extremely unlikely to change my position. This reference delivers absolutely nothing to the history of the KL Warschau but promotes globally banned Wikipedian and his false story. - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• Yes It is an RS and as far as I now no doubts have been raised as to the factual accuracy of the story (by RS). It has also been reported (slightly diffently worded) elsewhere that this was a wikiepdia hoax.Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  "no doubts have been raised" ? --> [23]. So now you know. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  "...(by RS)".Slatersteven (talk) 13:27, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  here by RS -->[24] are you gonna tell me that GW is not a RS ? Look, you gonna need a little better than banned Wikipedian telling the Haaretz journalist that this article was created deliberately as a hoax to consider this "news" to be reliable. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:38, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  Who is the author of that article? A professional journalist? A historian? A Wikipedia editor who did not like how he was quoted in the Haaretz article? Does the third one count as an RS? Levivich 13:45, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  You don’t know? Another Wikipedian who debunks the story told to Haaretz by globally banned Wikipedian. So either booth are reliable or none. So? Which is it Levivich? - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:54, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  There is a difference between a Wikipedia editor being used as a source in an article written by a professional journalist (Haaretz), and an article written by a Wikipedia editor to rebut the Haaretz article (Piotr's article in wyborcza.pl). The first in an RS, the second is not. No way this article written by an editor meets APLRS. Levivich 13:58, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

  As it is behind a pay wall care to provide the quote where they say this article was not wikiepdias longest running hoax?Slatersteven (talk) 13:53, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Another source [[25]] "15-year fake".Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

One in German [[26]]. And another [[27]].Slatersteven (talk) 14:05, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

• No The article doesn't fulfill ARBCOM formulated criteria for RS on this sensitive topic. Furthermore it seems to be based on information given by notorious indef banned user Icewhiz who is infamous for falsfying articles, revisionist theories and waging campaign of harassment against Polish users motivated by intense anti-Polish racism and hatred towards Poland. As such he isn't objective source.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:08, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone actually posses Kopka's book?

Or are all the statements sourced to him based on Google Book snippets? I am quite open to obtaining the book from library when time allows it and expanding the article based on it. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 14:06, 6 November 2021 (UTC)