User talk:WhatamIdoing

Please add notes to the end of this page. I'll probably reply here unless you suggest another page for a reply. Thanks, WhatamIdoing (talk)

RFC/U

You left a message on my talk page a couple weeks back regarding starting an RFC/U... I was wondering if you had any pointers on where to start to figuring out how to start such a thing, as I think I'm at my wit's end with this other user. Yobol (talk) 23:29, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The official directions are at WP:RFC and WP:RFC/U. I'm sorry to say that you'll need to read both pages to get the whole story, and some of the sub-pages might also be useful. It looks like you've never commented at one, so here's the basic run-down:

The absolute minimum requirements for opening an RFC/U are that you must have two users ready to sign their names to a statement, with diffs, saying that they have tried to resolve this dispute with this editor, and have failed. If it's just you, then try a noticeboard. You have 48 hours and zero minutes to get two editors to sign this statement, with diffs, or it will be deleted. (If there is any chance that it might take longer than that, then start in a sandbox.) So "Step Zero", if you will, is quietly chatting up a few people who are involved in the dispute to see if they're willing to certify it. Once you're ready to start, here's what you do:

• Think carefully about what outcome you would like. The goal is something that the other person might agree to voluntarily, so "magically becomes a WP:COMPETENT person no longer in desperate need of WP:THERAPY" is both useless and insulting. "Stops using profanity on article talk pages", however, is measurable and something a reasonable editor might agree to. (I have no idea what the dispute involves, so these are merely random examples.)
• You create a page named WP:Requests for comment/Username This page is generally set up in one of two formats (your choice).
• In the designated section at the top of the page, fill in your summary of the problem. In writing this summary, you frame everything as a behavioral issue (so it's "WP:CPUSH and WP:TE", not "added lousy sources to support his contention that the moon is made of green cheese") and provide a selection of diffs and diff-supported direct quotations to illustrate the problem. Resist the temptation to write a book-length explanation of the problem, because WP:TLDR is the law of the internet. (The purpose of direct quotations is because you also can't trust everyone to click all the diffs you're supplying for them, much less to search through article and user contribution histories.) Focus very tightly on the biggest problem.
• Once the page is "certified" (two editors signed their names, saying they have already attempted to resolve the dispute, with no success), then you notify the identified editor about its existence. Both RFC/U forms have a separate section exclusively reserved for that editor; it is his (or her) chance to tell his side of the story. Do not touch that section.

RFC/U pages have odd, spurty patterns. Sometimes, you certify one, and the next day there are a dozen comments on it; sometimes it takes a week to get any response at all. The goal there is to win friends and influence people, so editors who want to present themselves as being the rational, well-behaved persons in the dispute are well advised to be slow at adding any comments that could be (mis)construed as "arguing" with anyone, especially uninvolved respondents, but prompt at clarifying or providing additional evidence. Naturally, all threaded comments belong on the talk page.

Nominally, RFC/U pages stay open until the problem is solved and/or everyone is so bored or disgusted that they quit talking. If voluntary agreements (the preferred outcome) cannot be made, then the RFC/U might attract an admin willing to individually issue a WP:TOPICBAN or declare other sanctions, but this is rare, so the usual step is to then take that evidence on to WP:AN or WP:ARB to have involuntary sanctions imposed by the community or ArbCom—assuming nobody's yet quit in disgust and you're not totally exhausted. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the explanation. Someone else had already expressed interest in an RFC/U so that shouldn't be a problem...looks like I have some reading to do, and need to find a block of time to organize all this. I guess time invested now may save me some time in the future with no progress with this dispute. Thanks again! Yobol (talk) 13:10, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Tree shaping

There is a proposed Topic Ban for Blackash and Slowart on Tree shaping related articles at the Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents As you have had some involvement with these editors in question, you may wish to comment. Blackash have a chat 00:51, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

ELs

If you look at my contrib history, you'll find what my concern is. But I'd rather not post it as a public example as the particular article already has enough visibility. Still, your comment re footnote 5 may help me resolve the concern. Thank you! --S. Rich (talk) 03:47, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

You can send it to me in e-mail if you like, then.

I ask because I, like most experienced editors, sometimes fall into the trap of using words in their wiki-jargon sense, and assuming that everyone else does. As a result, we sometimes experience avoidable miscommunications. A concrete example usually sets everyone on the right path. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Question

Are you talking about the r or the p-value associated to that r? If is the r actually is a medium to high correlation. If it is the p value, it says that with the number of measures we have it is pretty easy that the result has be been obtained by chance.--Garrondo (talk) 07:14, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I used easycalculation.com/statistics/correlation.php (WP:BLACKLISTed web calculator), which is r, not p. I must have had the concepts backwards in my mind.

I'm trying to identify some factors that predict medium-term activity (after 1–2 years) in relatively new WikiProjects. For the first three months of 2009, the number of people voting in favor of a proposed (and created) project, compared to activity, gave me a coefficient of about 0.5.

There was an important (IMO) change to the instructions on 20 May 2009, which I expect (hope) will have increased the correlation. Ultimately, I'd like to be able to tell proposers something like "If you start a project with fewer than ___ members, you have a ___ chance of the project dying before its second birthday," but I don't know if I'll be able to determine that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:17, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Just FYI (although you probably know this already) remember that r-squared is the fraction of total variability explained. Therefore, an r = 0.5 means that 25% of the total variability in the dependent variable is explained by the variability in the independent variable. At least thats what I seem to remember, although I could be suffering from dementia :-)

Best regards:

Cliff L. Knickerbocker, MS (talk) 00:35, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

In this case it seems quite an important correlation. As explained above 25% of what is occurring two years later can be explained by what happens in the first 3 months of a project... Nevertheless a suggestion: in this case you could try to include other variables in the model to make it multivariate: examples could be number of pages tagged by the project in those initial 3 months, number of different editors in the discussions in the 3 months, links from other projects to the talk page of the project, and any other you think of.--Garrondo (talk) 07:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

And OF COURSE there are tests to see if the r-squared value, i.e. the contribution to the total variability, is statistically significant or not. LOL. I'm stopping there :-) Except to say that I strongly concur with the advice of Garrondo regarding the wisdom of trying to make your model multivariate.

Best regards:

Cliff L. Knickerbocker, MS (talk) 15:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I suspect that there are several components to success, but I'm not sure what they are. I hope to find something that allows the initial proposer (a single individual) to gauge the likelihood of success based on their own account's characteristics.

My next goal is to see whether the proposer's number of edits (as of the day of the proposal) has any effect. Perhaps when I get the data assembled, I should turn it over to one of you for a proper analysis. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:23, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Might be of interest

Hi, hope all is well. I thought due to some of our communications in the past that you might want to keep an eye on this case to see if anything happens here of interest. I don't know if you are already aware of this case that just opened or not but since we tried to calm things down earlier, without much success though some things were accomplished I think, I am watching it to see if goes into behaviors of editors. I am telling you about this because I think your interest would fall into the same area of interest as mine is. I just thought you should be aware of this in case you weren't already. Have a good day and stay well, --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:13, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, I noticed that BG is still in battle mode with WLU since he is still attacking in yet another thread. If his/her behaviors continue like this again, then I think it is time to ask an administrator for some kind of sanctions to stop the attacks already. I was close to it in the thread where we were discussing his/her website but figured it would calm down since a consensus was reached about everything being discussed. Now I see that isn't the case so I think it needs to be forcibly stopped if it continues. Do you agree or not? Since you are on the ELN board more than I am I thought it would be good to share my opinions about this with you in case the attacking continues. I hope your comments about this puts it to an end but if not than it needs to go to the next step I think. Thanks, --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:30, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your note. It looks like I was addressing that inappropriate attack at ELN while you were leaving this message for me. I had let it sit for a little while to reflect on how to address it, but I ultimately decided that a public rebuke was warranted. I do not want his attacks to continue. ELN is a stressful enough experience for new people (many of whom are really just trying their best to help), and spiteful messages like that will increase their stress and harm Wikipedia's reputation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:31, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Help needed

We could use your help in Talk:List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#Nazis_excommunicated where a document is being discussed with which you may be familiar. Student7 (talk) 14:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

BLP, ethnicity, gender

Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons#Include "ethnicity, gender," to match all other guidelines

Some say source requirements for ethnicity and gender of WP:EGRS don't apply to WP:BLP living persons, simply because the two words aren't in the policy. (Apparently, they think it should only apply to dead people.) I see that you have participated on this topic at the Village Pump.

They also are trying to remove the notability, relevance, and self-identification criteria at WT:EGRS, but that's another fight for another day, I'm simply too busy to watch two fronts at the same time.

We're on the 6th day. Traditionally, these polls go for 7; unless there's no obvious consensus, when we go for an additional 7 days.
--William Allen Simpson (talk) 17:00, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the note; I'll have to remember to !vote against your proposal when I have time to deal with it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites

Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Wikipedia:External links/Perennial websites during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Kumioko (talk) 01:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Please look at this page

EL Goddess -- please look at Tillamook Cheddar (dog). Do the links to the picture violate EL guidance? Thanks. --S. Rich (talk) 20:25, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

That is certainly an unusual approach. While it's possible that some of them are meant to function as self-published, non-independent primary sources that support the content (in which case, they ought to be formatted as proper bibliographic citations), and while one might attempt to make an argument for using {{External media}} boxes, I'd probably replace them all with a single, normal ==External link== to the main page of the website about the dog. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:25, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Wiki CA Help Request

The students in my orthopedics class seem to be using a professor provided template that doesn't exactly meet the formatting standards of Wikipedia, resulting in what you deem a "how-to" tone. I agree with this, but where I'd love your help (and anyone else willing to!) is creating a template based on the MoS and conventions within WikiMed that also include what the professor is providing to the students. With this template, we can not only ensure that students are creating articles that match the style from the beginning, but give them an introduction to the conventions of WikiMed. I appreciate all the feedback you've given, and can't wait to see what we are able to come up with. Dylanstaley (talk) 21:21, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dylan,

I'm happy to help. Have you considered the suggested sections at WP:MEDMOS#Medical_tests? There are other suggested patterns at WP:MEDMOS#Sections that might be useful.

Coping with how-to information is something we can always clean up later if we need to. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

So, using both my prior knowledge and the sections you provided, I've made the following template. Would you mind making any changes you feel are necessary? Dylanstaley (talk) 22:17, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I've had a go at User:Dylanstaley/OrthoTemplate. Whatever changes you dislike, feel free to remove. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:34, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I approve of all the changes. Just curious, though: why'd you move the history section towards the bottom? Is that a WP:MED thing? Dylanstaley (talk) 22:37, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes. For one thing, professionals tend to think Patient history, and for another, it's often the least important section. People primarily read medicine-related articles because they want to know about the "medicine" part, not the "history of medicine" parts.

For historical conditions, we take the opposite approach: history first, symptoms later. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in. So the Hawkins-Kennedy test works by rotating the greater tuberosity, approximating it to the acromion, impinging the rotator cuff or the long head of the biceps brachii tendon between them. Should this information be included and if so where? ITasteLikePaint (talk) 05:26, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

An excellent question. It sounds like we need a ==Mechanism== (or similar) section. Perhaps right after ==Procedure==? What do you think? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I think it would fit best there. I added it in but am not feeling very verbose this late at night. It will probably need to be revised. ITasteLikePaint (talk) 06:04, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Another question, and then I need to skip off wiki for a little while: Do you mind if we clean up the occasional formatting mistake in pages that are currently in the main namespace? I'd settled on a hands-off approach for the others (the more you do yourself, the better you learn how to do it), but I'm a little worried about leaving Finkelstein's Test in its current shape. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:42, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

External links filtering tool

Hi. I remember you'd expressed some interest in a tool to filter Special:LinkSearch results by namespace (for instance, so you could see only links from articlespace, since those are the ones subject to content policy). I remember you'd tried a script I wrote, but it wasn't working for you on your machine.

Anyhow, I just wanted to let you know that I rewrote a script to do this, mostly from the ground up, using jQuery. It should be much more portable, and I think it will work on your machine. If you're interested in giving it another try, the script is at User:MastCell/el-search.js. As I'm sure you already know, if you want to use it, you can go to your vector.js file and add the line:

importScript('User:MastCell/el-search.js');

Once you reload and reset your browser cache, it should work. All you should have to do is browse to Special:LinkSearch, and you should see a (functional) drop-down box to filter the results by namespace. If you do end up using this tool, the please let me know if it works for you, and let me know of any problems you encounter. Hope things are going well. MastCell ^Talk 00:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I've wandered back to Monobook for en.wiki, because of User:WhatamIdoing/Temp.js. Is it likely to work with Monobook? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:17, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Yup, it should work fine with any skin. MastCell ^Talk 03:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

On loading Special:LinkSearch and searching (in the usual way) for a website, I get (in this instance) 90 results on a page showing (expectedly) two search buttons (one on the left/usual place for searching for pages, one next to the LinkSearch box) and one promising new namespace pop-up menu.

On selecting "Article" and clicking the Search button, I get three grayed-out search buttons: two on the regular search box, and one on the LinkSearch box. All three say "Searching..." and show a little circular 'processing' icon. The buttons remain gray until I give up and cancel the search; it does not produce results (within, say, five minutes). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:20, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Clarification: I originally pulled up a search I'd done the other day, which had the search target in the URL. Now, when I go directly to Special:LinkSearch and type in something new, even without touching the new menu, it fails to produce results. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:12, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, shucks. It sounds like something is seriously messed up, but unfortunately it's beyond my rank-amateur skillz to figure it out. I'm sorry - I was really hoping that switching to a more robust third-party library like jQuery would fix the issues. Anyhow, thanks for trying it out again - if I can figure out why it's not behaving for you, I'll get back to you about it... MastCell ^Talk 19:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Today, I'm using Firefox 3.6.13 on a Mac. If you'd like, I could try it on Safari. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure, that couldn't hurt. I've actually tested it on Mac/Firefox and Mac/Safari (albeit an earlier version of Firefox) and it's worked for me. So I think it's less likely a straight-up browser/OS issue, and more likely an interaction with either the monobook.js or perhaps another piece of Javascript code that may be running on your client. But that's just a guess. If it behaves differently for you with Safari, please let me know. MastCell ^Talk 20:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I get the same behavior. Safari is version 5.0.3, very much plain vanilla; MacOS is version 10.5.8 on a somewhat elderly laptop. I've got a machine running 10.4, and I think one running 10.3; what OS are you using? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:42, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I've tried it on OS 10.5.? and 10.6.? with Firefox and Safari, with success (as well as Firefox on Linux and various Windows flavors, and Chrome on Windows). What I haven't done is try it with monobook (or other skins) - I just assumed it would work, but that may have been a mistake. Alternately, depending on what you've got in your monobook.js, it might be conflicting with other scripts. MastCell ^Talk 21:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

I switched to Vector, and it still doesn't work in either Safari or Firefox, with the same behavior (well, in Vector I only get two grayed-out buttons, presumably because there's no "Go" button).

In both Vector and Monobook, I've tried it as the sole script; it doesn't seem to matter. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:30, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... weird. I don't have a good explanation for that. I should probably enlist the help of someone more knowledgeable than I in the art of Javascript. Thanks again for testing it. MastCell ^Talk 23:15, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

• Update: I think I might see the problem. I've used the HTML "submit" type to identify the "Search" button, assuming there was only one such button. In fact, the Wikipedia-wide search box also has a "submit" button, so the script is getting confused between the two. I think that accounts for the behavior you're noticing. Let me work on it and I will get back to you once I think I have it solved. Thanks again for testing it. MastCell ^Talk 19:54, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy to test it for you. Let me know when it's ready for the next round. (No rush.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

OK, I think that this should fix it. Would you be willing to try it again? MastCell ^Talk 03:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Well... we have progress, in that there's only one grayed-out button (and it's the right one), but I'm still not getting any results (in Vector, in Firefox: I can test the other configurations, but I don't expect them to behave correctly). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:32, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Hmmmm... that's really odd. I just re-tested it by logging in to my account on a Mac (Mac OS 10.6.5). I tried both Safari 5 and Firefox 3.6.15, and the script worked for me. Oh well, back to the drawing board - I'm at a loss for why it isn't working. MastCell ^Talk 19:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Arborsculptre et al. Subject Bans

re a proposed Topic Ban for Blackash and Slowart on Tree shaping related articles- I Have addressed your comments here and further at the ban link @ [1] where my top-line reads "Support Subject Ban, including all editors porting ongoing arguments here..." What about a group who use WP to try to effect a change to the English language? If that's not an "original" effort.... quest-ce que? Hilarleo ^Hey,L.E.O. 02:47, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

re "Topiary is not X,Y, or Z" at WP:ANI#How about full page protection- I would like to solicit the reasoning behind your opinion re topic and title, but please let's do this where it was, where it is more well-supported- not at WP:ANI which is after all a poll on another, newer issue, not a forum for the established antagonists to re-hash their positions, which it's become.Hilarleo ^Hey,L.E.O. 18:08, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not actually complicated enough to waste time discussing: Topiary canonically does not involve trees. Most traditional topiary uses shrubs, and modern topiary uses metal frames stuffed with sphagnum moss and small, decorative, non-woody plants. Additionally, with topiary, the artistic emphasis is strongly on the leaves, and with both tree-shaping and bonsai, the primary artistic focus is the tree trunk. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Re: DEADREF

Hello. You have a new message at Hydroxonium's talk page. - Hydroxonium (T•C•V) 16:48, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Blackash talk page

Hi, I've now replied to your comments on my talk page, I did ramble on a bit. But the short version is I haven't taken it personally. Blackash have a chat 11:28, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Reply on WP:PEND RFC

Just thought I'd drop you a friendly note that I replied to your section on the analysis that has been done so far. I should have gotten around to replying sooner. --nn123645 (talk) 03:10, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I hate my brain sometimes

These are things that I should have spotted on proofreading the article (several times). Thanks for fixing them. Any chance of reviewing the article for GAC? JFW | T@lk 04:17, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'm reading now and will post comments soon.

Do you prefer BrEng or AmEng for this article? Since you've contributed more than twice as much as any other editor, it's IMO entirely up to you—feel free to switch it one way or the other—but it needs to be one or the other, and I'll need to know which one you choose before I officially review grammar. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Should probably be AmEng, given that I haven't really actively tried to use BrEng spelling. I probably have left some Britishisms in. JFW | T@lk 18:23, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for starting the review. Please continue. I have all the time in the world now that Lambert-Eaton myasthenic syndrome has passed rather more quickly than I'd anticipated. JFW | T@lk 12:22, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the nudge. I apologize for being so slow and uncommunicative this round. I'm very slowly working my way through the sources. I can't seem to find a copy of Robbins, though, and unlike some of the others (I'll get you a list of the important ones before long), a book is not something you could readily e-mail to me if necessary. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:02, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Book links

I have a question - I am not sure what you mean by this statement "The extensive use of redirection URLs (handle.net) needs to be fixed." that you made about book links. Could you clarify for me - as i use books alot.Moxy (talk) 19:07, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

See WP:EL#Redirection_sites. Handle.net is like Bit.ly, and shouldn't normally be used. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

oooo ok sorry to bug you - i though you meant a Googlebook long link - that allows you to go to a page like http://books.google.ca/books?id=D8ZHHz7AQN8C&lpg=PP1&dq=What%20Happened%3F%3A%20An%20Encyclopedia%20of%20Events%20That%20Changed%20America%20Forever&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q&f=true ..Moxy (talk) 19:35, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Those can be quite useful, particularly when they point at a particular page. I believe that you can shorten it to just this, though: http://books.google.ca/books?id=D8ZHHz7AQN8C&pg=PA52 Don't forget to add the ISBN WP:Magic word whenever possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Notification

Were you going to leave a note about the pointer at ELN or elsewhere? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 21:30, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been away from my computer for a bit, and I haven't got much time now. As it was a generic, name-free request for general attention, I didn't think that notifications were warranted. I had considered at note at ELN or its talk page, but if anything, I thought that drawing attention to the request for more attention from uninvolved people might have the unfortunate effect of escalating the dispute. The goal is dispute resolution, not dispute escalation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:29, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Yup, sounds good (particularly your last sentence...) WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex

Hi, I don't know if you are interested in this change of header or not but thought you should at least know it was changed. I just noticed it while looking at the difs at AN/i. Usually it's improper to change a header someone else wrote esp. when editors have already responded to the section as you know. I'm not going to do anything about this but just wanted to let you know about the change. Take care and hopefully this will end already. --CrohnieGal^Talk 17:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I saw it, and I don't mind. Even if I did, WP:TPO says that it's okay to change section headings. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:35, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I think I'm going to have to go a reread some of the basic policies and guidelines to see the changes made since my last read long ago. ;) --CrohnieGal^Talk 22:07, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Invitation to edit

Sorry for taking so long with collecting the stats for the trial. I've been been very distracted. I'll make a start on it today. I've invited Occasi and PPdd to contribute their thoughts, since both have expressed some enthusiasm for statistical analysis. I hope this will give PPdd an opportunity to work with us on something relatively emotionally neutral when he gets unblocked, and may give him something constructive to do while waiting. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the update. I am looking forward to seeing what we have learned. You might also be able to get Cliff User_talk:Uploadvirus to provide advice, if that seemed helpful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Hey folks - I'm AWFULLY swamped these days with work and fighting with my family (which is also work, believe you me), but I would certainly be happy to pitch in here and there where I can with stat work you have. Let me know (and THANKS to WhatamIDoing for the recommendation, I'm honored). WOOPS ... almost forgot my autograph ... Best regards: Cliff Cliff L. Knickerbocker, MS (talk) 18:22, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Wait

I was wondering about your point at the policy village pump on WP:NOTHOWTO, which now is archived due to the busy nature of the page. I don't have much time to spend on Wikipedia before it was over, but I still wanted to ask you about why there should be no instructions when this is an encyclopedia. Sure, other encyclopedias (depending on the definition of encyclopedia) don't have much instructions, but they do it for a reason. We should make the reason, which is to not waste too much space, our policy, and not what to do because of the reason a policy. If I tried to take a dollar from a mouse trap and realized it wasn't a good idea, wouldn't I learn to avoid mousetraps instead of not picking up money? Policies are fundamental, so shouldn't they need to be to the point, rather than because of the point? Making it because of the point could allow for potential inefficiencies, such as in the rare cases where there is no mousetrap. 173.183.79.81 (talk) 08:17, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Let's use the simplest example, which is a step-by-step recipe. Pure "how-to" material, right? So you go to a tiny article about, oh, croquembouche and you provide detailed instructions on how to make this complicated cake.

Then consider what you'd have at the end of that exercise. Would that really be an encyclopedia entry? Or would that be a cookbook entry?

An encyclopedia does not include such material. A cookbook does. When you add such material, the article stops being an encyclopedia entry. Instead, the article starts being a cookbook entry.

These might be equally desirable (depending on the reader) but they are simply not the same thing. They are as naturally different as a poetry book and a mystery novel. It's not about page length: it's about encyclopedic character.

This project—the English Wikipedia—must maintain its character as an English-language encyclopedia. It must not infringe on other projects' territory to become Wiki-everything-to-all-people. We therefore cannot include how-to material. How-to-cook material must be sent to Wikibooks' cookbook project. How-to-define material must be sent to Wikitionary. How-to-learn material must be sent to Wikiversity's textbook project. How-to-build material must be sent to Wikibooks' non-fiction section.

These are our reasons for this:

1. Including non-encyclopedic material damages our character as an encyclopedia.
2. Including non-encyclopedic material damages our sister projects.

Complying with NOTHOWTO is one of the ways that we avoid these two types of damage. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:00, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Video hosting service move

Your move of that article to video-hosting service to add a hyphen might have been in good faith but doing only that is more disruptive than helpful. Are you going to move File hosting service, Image hosting service, FFmpeg hosting service and move the corresponding category names as well? As you probably know, Wikipedia:Article titles and its subpages generally recommends that we use the "most commonly used" name. I recognize that using the hyphen is more rigorous, but I find that it is not the prevalent usage. If OK with you, please go to Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial requests and request that it be moved back or leave me a message that it is OK with you to have it moved back and then I will put the request in (I need to be able to show to an admin that there is no "controversy" with you). Then please feel free to start a *discussion* and build consensus about whether adding the hyphen everywhere is justified. I am sympathetic to the notion, but your approach is not the best way to get this sort of job done.--Peterclancy (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

The hyphen is grammatically correct, and if you want the titles of all related pages to be matchy-matchy (something not required by the naming conventions), then I could certainly move them all. However, if the sources tend to use the grammatically incorrect version, then it doesn't bother me to have it follow the sources rather than the grammar book. As far as I'm concerned, you can just move it back, without cluttering up WP:RM over it. Admin intervention is not required for simple moves over redirects.

WP:BOLD editing, when there's no reason to suspect that there is any controversy, is always the best way to get this sort of job done. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I have forgotten that it was now possible to move over a redirect. I did move it back for now. Having looked at some of the other links in the template on that page, I was wondering about your notion of how to hyphenate Social network hosting service. I guess it is a matter of one hyphen or two.--Peterclancy (talk) 16:26, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

My first inclination is to close my eyes and pretend I never saw it, because I believe that the technically correct approach is social(hyphen)network(en dash)hosting service, which is the stuff of nightmares for people who aren't typography geeks.

My solution might look like proposing a merge to social networking service. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:51, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks very much for taking the time to review thrombophilia for GAC! JFW | T@lk 17:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. I always enjoy working with you, and I appreciate the effort that you put into these articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:51, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

PC Testing

There are already a number of test articles, where anyone can experiment with PC - see Wikipedia:Pending_changes/Testing. There is also a test wiki, http://prototype.wikimedia.org/flaggedrevs where if you want, you can be an admin and see how to add/remove PC.  Chzz  ►  19:46, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Sure—if you're such a technically advanced person that you think to go to an entirely different website to try it out. Half a dozen "test pages" show the average editor bloody nothing about how real IPs edit real articles that really are on the editor's real watchlist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

edit

Hi. Question you may be able to answer. There appears to be a new format with links above (e.g. different icons for internal link) when I try to edit. Any idea how I can get rid of them? I can't seem to make an internal link happen! Thanks.Jimsteele9999 (talk) 23:26, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Can you point me at an example? Internal links should be same as always. What sort of icon are you seeing? (A little padlock, by any chance?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that annoying padlock! For example, right now I see a chain as an con for internal links next to a pic of something for embedded file. Help!Jimsteele9999 (talk) 15:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean that you see these icons in the actual editing window? Then I suspect that the solution is this:

• Go to Special:Preferences.
• Click the 'Editing' tab.
• Uncheck the next-to-last item, 'Enable enhanced editing toolbar'.
• 'Save' your new preferences settings, and test them out.

I believe there was some sort of screw-up on a MediaWiki software about two weeks ago that accidentally ticked this box for a bunch of editors. They apologized nicely and reversed whatever they could, but apparently they had to leave a fraction of accounts with the wrong settings (possibly accounts that they weren't sure what the settings were supposed to have been). If that solves your problem, then you can count yourself among the victims. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

F-a-G discussion

Hi, I just want to let you know that I made a suggestion to at least get a good opinion about copyright with this site. The two responses I got give me the clue that nothing can be accomplished to find closure for any part of the problems that editor's find with this site. So I think I'm going to take a break from these discussions and just deal with any F-a-G sites I find on a one to one basis. Good luck if you continue, --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:24, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The essay will stay on my watchlist, and if any talk-page stalkers want to keep an eye on it, that would be fine, too: it's WP:ELPEREN.

I am currently very unhappy about Kumioko's straw-man arguments. His misrepresentations of other editors' suggestions are now IMO amounting to outright falsehoods. More importantly, his inability to respond to the actual proposals, rather than his made-up exaggerations of them, is preventing resolution. I have just taken (IMO) serious steps towards redirecting him. This pattern of seriously misrepresenting his opponents' positions has got to stop. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Well from what I read, he still isn't hearing anyone. He has said that editors are trying to get this site banned in a round about way without difs or naming the editors. He keeps saying that F-a-G should remain but what policies or guidelines has he been using? I don't remember any myself that he's uses but it's been a hard long debate so I could have missed it. He also admits to stonewalling the debates to a point, well I thought this was not allowed even if it only to a point. What does this mean anyways, does it mean just enough to prevent a consensus from emerging against this site or to a point? I have to admit he has exhausted me with all of his comments which say the same thing for the most part and usually he says things that aren't true, at least I'm not seeing it. I think he needs to walk away from the discussion for awhile so editor can see if they can get a consensus but I doubt that will happen. I don't know what else to do other than walking away myself at this point. I just left a message there if you want to see it. I want to see his response to my questions which is more or less what I am saying here but in question form. It's late for me to be online so I'm going to say good night for now. I hope things look better in the morning. --CrohnieGal^Talk 22:50, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I hope that his responses in the future will be more thoughtful and less mendacious than his previous comments. Presumably he feels threatened by the long-standing and very general absence of support for a website that he apparently values highly, and this may have prompted some of these irrational comments and false accusations. We don't need a high-speed conversation to settle this. More thought and less speed before posting would probably help the conversation—no matter which editor is considering posting a comment. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:22, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

RFC

Talk:Gibraltar#RfC: Due weight & NPOV in the History section I have started an RFC to gather outside opinion related to this issue. Thought you may have an interest in commenting. Thanks. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:38, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Well thanks!

Thanks for that, glad I could provide a laugh!--Yaksar (let's chat) 01:28, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

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Autoconformation RfC

A formal Request for Comment has now been started on this topic. Feel free to contribute; best, Ironholds (talk) 19:28, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

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A few words about medical marijuana

Hi, What! I'd like to respond to your comments in this post, about the use of marijuana for medical treatment.

First, you wrote that you thought that pharmaceutical chemists "might laugh themselves silly at the idea that a variable fraction of a variable amount of a highly variable product produces 'better control of the dose' than any standardized product". You might like to ask about this at the talk page for our Medical cannabis article; one of the most frequent contributors there is an Austrian professor of pharmacology who also works in the development (for a drug company) of cannabinoids in pill form.

There probably aren't a handful of scientists in the world who know as much as he does about how cannabinoids are transported from the gut into the bloodstream, and even though he works in researching that area precisely, he'll tell you that it's a very difficult process to control well to achieve the bioavailability that's desired. His user ID is Alfie66, and he's a very pleasant chap; I'm sure he'd be happy to address this or any other question on his talk page, as well.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I do know that Alfie is much opposed to the proliferation of marijuana for every ailment under the sun ( as am I, btw ). But he's also said on that talk page, that vaporizing or smoking is indeed a much more efficient route of administration and that it does indeed provide better dose titration. Because the physical effects of smoked marijuana are nearly instantaneous ( versus the much slower ~45 to 60 minute onset that results from taking a pill ) patients are indeed better able to gauge how much is necessary to control their symptoms. There are also articles in highly-respected journals that say the same. As Alfie has said, and other researchers in the area have said as well, the push to capture the potential therapeutic effects of the 80+ cannabinoids present in marijuana in pill form is driven by politics, not science.

Further, if you'd ever tried to care for someone who was, before resorting to marijuana, so continually nauseous that her face was usually contorted as if she'd just tasted something really disgusting and very often said "I wish I could just die", and had yourself seen what that actually means for a patient, I think your view about medical marijuana might shift a bit. Before resorting to marijuana the woman I helped care for was so pathetically nauseous that she'd vomit up the pills she was supposed to take at least half the time, and could seldom keep even a quarter of a glass of water down. Fighting dehydration was a constant battle, and because she couldn't eat her weight dropped at one point to 68 pounds, a woman of 5'9". She was in her late 80's by the way, and she, like her whole family, had lived all their lives as fervent fundamentalist Christians, tremendously opposed to illegal drug use. That's why it took her family so long to try the drug for her when nothing else had worked.

Also, I have to tell you that "I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the physician never bothered to prescribe it" isn't a fair characterization, either. It's true that she'd been to many different doctors who didn't suggest it ( although one finally had the courage to do so, God bless her ) but a survey published in the Journal of Oncology reports that over half of physicians in that specialty have done so. I'm sure many more would, if they weren't afraid of the legal consequences or of possible contempt from fellow physicians. They're aware, as myriad studies have shown, that it's not just the single cannabinoid THC that's responsible for the therapeutic effects, but that the multiplicity of cannabinoids present in marijuana act synergisticaly to produce those effects.

I'm sorry to have written a novel here, but while I'm opposed to the proliferation of marijuana that's only ostensibly for medical use, it really disturbs me to see its legitimate medical value disparaged by careless remarks. It gave one woman who I loved dearly the ability to end her days in relative peace, rather than the pathetic suffering that she'd undergone for so long before, and I really object to suggestions that caregivers favor its legal medical use because, as you put it, "it's easy to steal a pinch". I don't mean to berate you, and I'm sorry to have done so a bit, but I have to repeat that if you'd ever been in a caregiver's shoes in such a case, you couldn't possibly make a remark like that.  – OhioStandard (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm happy to hear from you. A few quick responses:

• The view of the average pharmaceutical chemist very likely diverges from the views of a subject-matter specialist. The fact remains that marijuana in 'leaf' form is not, and cannot be, standardized. (Oil extractions could be, but I'm not aware of anyone doing this. IMO it would be highly desirable for a standardized oil to be available.) The patient simply does not know either the purity or the potency of any given batch.
• My comment about physicians not bothering to prescribe was specifically about physicians not prescribing the pill form, for which there are zero legal consequences. I suspect the typical specialist would be far more likely to prescribe the 'real thing' than the pill, at least if the local area has some sort of medical-marijuana law. While the real thing is commonly preferred, the pill form usually works fairly well. Your loved one could have been spared months of problems, with zero legal liability, zero acquisition problems, and dramatically reduced cultural conflict, if someone had thought to prescribe the legal pill form instead of holding out THC as the last resort.
• Theft is a serious problem, and please note that I specified institutional use for that issue. A family member or a dear friend might well be horrified at the thought, but audits of nursing homes, which typically employ dozens of poorly paid, poorly educated people, show that theft and coercion is a significant problem. See, e.g., The New York Times, which says:

“If the marijuana is kept at the nurses’ station, it tends to disappear,” Ms. Everhart said. “Pills in nursing homes are in what they call vacuum packs: you have to pop a pill out one at a time. They don’t do that with marijuana. It’s an amount of marijuana in a small plastic bag, so there is no way to track if someone took one or two pinches.”

Montana’s long-term care ombudsman, Kelly Moorse, said in an e-mail that in one state facility, workers took medical marijuana from a resident’s lockbox. She also said there were claims of staff members approaching a resident, seeking to “share” the patient’s marijuana.

Theft is also an issue in the home-care setting—my local newspaper reports home-invasion robberies of obviously disabled MM patients unfortunately often—but the problem is well-documented for institutional use, and in that setting might well disappear if the patients were all on a countable form. (Since it's unreasonable to assume that all seriously ill people have zero family members with addiction or mental illness, and since theft of narcotics by family members is not unheard of, I assume that some family members occasionally steal marijuana from patients, but it is not commonly reported.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

It saddens me to hear that anyone would steal drugs from a patient, regardless of the setting. Of course, theft would be much less likely if marijuana's price weren't so high because of our oh-so-successful ;-) war on drugs. Without that it would be priced like the dried seasoning herbs one buys in bulk at a grocery market. You're right, of course, that potency varies widely, but it doesn't matter much. Since the effects are so nearly immediate, patients can inhale a bit, wait a minute or two, and tell right away whether or not they're going to need more. That's especially true for pain, I understand; nausea usually takes a little longer to subside, around 5 - 15 minutes, from what I saw. But the patient quickly becomes experienced enough to know, by judging the intensity of the immediate-onset corollary effects, whether they've consumed enough to address the intended symptom. With pills they have to guess, and just hope that the amount they took last time will work this time or (much worse, imo) just always keep themselves full of the stuff to prevent onset of symptoms.

I've read a fair bit, btw, about the efficacy of pills versus inhalation. Most severely ill patients report that their symptoms are better controlled by inhalation, ( possibly because they receive not just one or two isolated cannabinoids, but the full range of 80+ ), and I really don't see any reason not to trust them about their own self-reported symptoms and experience. Re availability, my friend's mom couldn't get insurance coverage for pills. That would have been been approved only if she'd had AIDS or cancer, and she didn't have. No one really knows what the problem was ( since no autopsy was performed ) but exhaustive testing, imaging studies, etc. the best guess was that she had some intractable infection (she seemed to improve somewhat on some antibiotics) probably specific to one organ or organ system. The docs would have liked to have done exploratory surgery, but by the time that was proposed she was too weak to have been able to survive it. On a nurse's recommendation, her family put her in a care facility for three weeks with the idea that the place would be able to run more tests with her as an inpatient, and thus determine root cause of the problem. The facility sold itself on that premise, and the family went with that, even though it was hugely expensive and mostly out-of-pocket. Without access to her usual palliative, she was constantly sick again, lost 18 pounds over the three-week interval, and passed away shortly afterwards. In retrospect it was a real mistake to have tried that.

Did you know, btw, that bloodstream cannabinoid levels vary by orders of magnitude among individuals after consumption of the same amount, regardless of method of consumption? There's really no across-the-board, universally-applicable dose-to-bioavailability curve possible, much less a dose-to-therapeutic-response curve: The variation (apparently based on a person's genes) among individuals is just immense. Metabolism rates vary incredibly, as well, from one individual to the next. If you're interested in examining that further, take a look here, where I, very much the amateur, try to answer, with tolerant and patient assistance from the pharmacology prof I mentioned, the question "What will this certain dose produce in terms of bioavailability?" He basically said that was almost impossible to predict across individuals, e.g. quoting from research results, "Mean pulmonal bioavailability (%) was 28.5±23.1. There were two volunteers with a relative bioavailability of ~60%, but also one with only 3.7% and another one with even only 0.4%. This might give you an impression on the high variability".  – OhioStandard (talk) 20:04, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• People steal cigarettes and beer, and I see no reason why marijuana would not be an equally desirable target for theft if it were available under the same terms. Ditto for legal narcotics like Vicodin (and it seems more likely that MM would be regulated as a prescription-only therapeutic than as a recreational substance in the US, so this is IMO an apt comparison).
• Self-reported symptoms are often the worst possible measure of efficacy, since they do not control for drug-seeking behavior. For example, I know people who refuse to report their pain real because levels they hate the woozy feeling they get from narcotics—and people who say that NSAIDs are worthless, because they like that same feeling. I know someone who says she "needs" an unusually high supply of estrogen to control what she has been telling her doctor are intolerable menopausal symptoms... which, after ten years, some of her friends have decided means "wrinkles". Some students apparently fake ADHD to get drugs. There's no reason to think that marijuana is magically immune from these behaviors. We have to assume that people who like getting high and find it easier to get high on leaf marijuana than the pills are naturally going to say that the pill version is 'less effective' or 'less desirable'.
• Potency matters if you're the one paying for it: you would not want someone to have to spend $50 this week to get the same relief that they received last week by spending $25.
• I begin to wonder if your mother's friend had ever heard of parenteral nutrition. Nausea does not interfere with nutrition delivered through an IV line.
• If you're trying to figure out how the route of administration affects things, it's important to compare the same substance. In this instance, you'd want to compare smoked leaf marijuana against ingested leaf marijuana, not against a single molecule, and since you can't standardize it, you'd need to do these comparisons from the same batch at approximately the same time (because age and storage conditions matter). If the marijuana itself contains dramatically different levels of active molecules, then it would hardly surprising that the amount in the blood stream varies. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Response to your question

There is a very complex conversation/negotiation going on as a part of the RFC, so it would be premature for me to comment at this stage. We are trying to find a win/win solution for all concerned. Thank you for your interest.Racepacket (talk) 23:26, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Far from being "very complex", I think that it's pretty simple: If you agree to stop reviewing articles in these two subject areas, then I believe that the people who brought the the RFC/U will be more or less satisfied, and the RFC/U could be wrapped up completely in the next couple of days. If you absolutely refuse to do this, then I think that they need to consider alternatives that might be acceptable to you. They have no reason to even consider the existence of alternatives if you refuse to tell them that this option won't work for you—and no need to waste everyone's time and energy on alternatives if this does work for you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I have made an offer and am waiting for them to respond. It is best to take this one step at a time. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 23:59, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

If you refer to your 'offer' to not review articles nominated by four named individuals, then I suspect that it has been overlooked because it is physically above the proposal that you are ignoring. Do you intend for this to be a counteroffer, i.e., you reject Rschen's subject-based proposal in favor of your named-editors proposal? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

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GA reviews

Hi. I have just completed my first GA, unfortunately failing it. Seeing as you appear to be quite involved in the process I was hoping you could have a quick look over my review and make sure it is up to standard. I would like to continue with reviews and it would be good to get some feedback. It is at Talk:Stade Roland Garros/GA1. Regards AIRcorn (talk) 04:17, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Overall, I think you did a good job. A few points for you:

• Be careful not to exceed the actual GA criteria. For example, these points are all common advice (and generally desirable), but they're not actually required for GAs:
  • "use the Template:convert (or enter by hand) metric and imperial measurements for each measurement"
  • "Also all numbers under ten should be written out"
  • "there should be no single sentence paragraphs"
  • "All websites refs need retreival dates and similar formatting"
  • "Probably too many Primary Sources are used"
• Be wary of changing someone's writing style. GA's "well-written" point is aimed at identifying outright grammar errors. In "correcting" other people's writing style and word choices, we often end up with very bland articles. The same thing can happen with removing "trivia": what is "trivia" to one person is the only thing the next person might find memorable and interesting in the whole article.
• There's no set seven-day time limit. You could set a one-day limit, or a 100-day limit, or whatever you want. Reviewers have a lot of flexibility in that regard. Many of them happen to like seven days, but you could pick anything that seemed appropriate to you.

As I said above, overall you did a good job. I think the process you described will serve you well in future reviews. I hope that you continue to review nominated articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The WP:GACN page will be very useful in the future. AIRcorn (talk) 01:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad that you like GACN; I'm its primary author. It was written primarily to short-circuit disputes by documenting some things that aren't entirely clear in the GA criteria themselves.

And, again, welcome to this little corner of Wikipedia. I'm glad that you've decided to try out some GA work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:22, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I have almost dipped my foot in a few times, but always found it a bit daunting. I wonder if a mentor type system would be useful to help new reviewers. Not too extreme, just something similar to what you have just done for me. BTW I talked to the nominator and have changed it to holding as he was keen to address the raised points. AIRcorn (talk) 09:32, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I know that something like that has been done occasionally in the past, but I'm not sure that it's an 'official' process (you know, so that someone could actually read directions on how to find a mentor). Perhaps I should look through the documentation again, and see what (if anything) is present, and how to make it easier. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Also, I'm glad that you and the nom have decided to work through the article's issues. Re-opening the review was the right choice, given the editor's interest in fixing it up. The best outcome is always that an article deserves to get listed. Good luck, WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:47, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your participation in the March 2011 GAN backlog elimination drive

On behalf of User:Wizardman and myself, we would like to take the time and thank you for your contributions made as part of the March 2011 Good articles backlog elimination drive. Awards and barnstars will go out shortly for those who have reviewed a certain number of articles.

During the backlog drive, in the month of March 2011,

• 522 GA nominations were undertaken.
• 423 GA nominations passed.
• 72 GA nominations failed.
• 27 GA nominations were on hold.

We started the GA backlog elimination drive with 378 GA nominations remaining, with 291 that were not reviewed at all. By 2:00, April 1, 2011, the backlog was at 171 GA nominations, with 100 that were left unreviewed.

At the start of the drive, the oldest unreviewed GA nomination was 101 days (Andrei Kirilenko (politician), at 20 November 2010, reviewed and passed 1 March 2011); at the end of the drive the oldest unreviewed GA nomination was 39 days (Gery Chico, at 24 February 2011, still yet to be reviewed as of this posting).

While we did not achieve the objective of getting the backlog of outstanding GA nominations down to below 50, we reduced the GA backlog by over half. The GA reviews also seemed to be of a higher quality and have consistently led, to say the least, to marginal improvements to those articles (although there were significant improvements to many, even on the some of the nominations that were failed).

If you would like to comment on the drive itself and maybe even make suggestions on how to improve the next one, please make a comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles/GAN backlog elimination drives/March 2011#Feedback. Another GA backlog elimination drive is being planned for later this year, tentatively for September or October 2011. Also, if you have any comments or remarks on how to improve the Good article process in general, Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles can always use some feedback at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Good articles.

Again, on behalf of User:Wizardman and myself, thank you for making the March 2011 GA backlog elimination drive a success.

MuZemike delivered by MuZebot 21:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Independent sources & Wikipedia:Third-party sources

Hi, WAID: what would you think about merging these? -- Rrburke (talk) 11:23, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I've waffled on that more or less since I discovered that they both existed, and can't make up my mind. The major sticking point is that one might occasionally (perhaps "rarely") have a source that wasn't independent, but was still a third party. See Wikipedia:Party and person#Doesn.27t_.22third_party.22_mean_.22independent.22.3F for two examples. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:44, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought of that: I suppose you could be a third party who nevertheless has a close connection to the subject. But the distinction could be teased out as a topic in any merged essay. There's a good deal of crossover, not to say redundancy, between the two essays. What do you think? -- Rrburke (talk) 17:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

It looks like it's been discussed before. I won't object. It would be appropriate to set up a proper merge proposal and wait a week in case anyone objects. Which page would you merge "to"? I lean slightly towards merging 3PARTY into INDY, but I could go either way. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that's right, although I think the title scarcely matters as I expect people typically reach the pages by way of the shortcuts. WP:INDY is older, though, so I guess it has the prior claim. -- Rrburke (talk) 00:05, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Weston Price's own words

Your comment about a whole lot of dentists who need a good lecture on the fact that correlation does not imply causation reminded me of a point that came up on the Weston Price talk page when I produced the first lines from Price, Weston A. (1925) "Dental Infection and related Degenerative Diseases" J Am Med Assoc 1925;84(4):254-261. Griswaldo and THE FOUNDERS INTENT ^PRAISE both agreed the quote showed Price did understand the difference and felt that he was not the ardent supporter that his advocates present. Prices own words of 1939 seem to hint that he dropped FIT in favor of nutrition but since stating that would be WP:OR. I want to put in the quote as is but it has been kept out as well because how readers might interpretate it.--BruceGrubb (talk) 19:16, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Bruce, quotes like that can sometimes be used they can't represent proof of anything (advancing a claim); they can only be stated as 'Price said X'. It's not in our purview to say what the quotes represent, especially since Price's views may have changed over time, and it's up for secondary sources to determine the course of that change. Even then some would say we necessarily we need secondary sources pointing to those quotes directly, to determine their significance and relevance. Essentially, they're primary sources, and we can't use them except in very limited terms until other RS point to them. Ocaasi ^c 19:32, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Let's not spread this dispute to a bunch of pages.

I think we're going to have to resign ourselves to having an article that presents what the sources say, rather than the exact truth of his last view on the subject. In particular, "seem to hint" is far too subtle to worry about.

Bruce, it might amuse you to know that what I had on my mind when I wrote that was a scene at my dentist's office a couple of years ago. The dental hygienists apparently decided that everyone needs to know that flossing twice a day during pregnancy prevents heart disease and birth defects. Finding the balance between being kind and correcting errors proved somewhat challenging. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Gibraltar

Thanks, nice of you to comment. I'm not inclined to long arguments (as some clearly are on that subject), but it can sometimes be useful to suggest a way round. If I can help anywhere, let me know. Andrew Dalby 09:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk:The Man Who Would Be Queen

Against my better judgment, I've decided to take a crack at helping out there. This is in no way my area of expertise, but nor do I have any vested interest in it whatsoever. I honestly think that if editors there can just keep their posts concise and point to specific problems, it shouldn't be all that hard; however, my observations seem to indicate that's a problem. RL beckons me, but I figured I'd let you know that someone was going to at least try. If my presence turns out to be detrimental, just let me know and I'll head out. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

1. Thank you: I'm deeply grateful to have support from any experienced editor in that snake pit.
2. I'm sorry: Darlie believes that any new editor who removes the POV pushing is editing at my behest. Since I didn't actually ask you to be involved, I've assumed that you saw the public note at WP:VPM or ran across it on recent changes patrol or at DGG's talk page or some such third-hand place, but I'm sorry that Darlie has falsely accused you of being a meat puppet. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

A combination of the two, actually; I saw something on DGG's talkpage (I do NPP, so we run into each other a lot), then I saw your VPM note. I'm also involved in trying to fix longevity-related articles (I was somewhat involved in the recent longevity arbitration case), a subject I know equally little about, and I've come out of that all right. On 110C (a chatroom for those interested in supercentenarians), I was ripped a couple of times (search my username on Google and look in the cached version); it doesn't bother me. I don't mind venting; at worst it's just text, and sometimes it can help make my point for me. I'm partway through the book, and it is interesting, if a bit dense at times. We shall see how everything works out. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:56, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Looking at this as somebody who has never heard about the book: Why don't you just report him for slow motion editwarring? Yoenit (talk) 22:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I've thought about it, but I'd like to have a long-term solution. If the user is blocked now for edit warring, there's no reason to think that we won't be right back where we started shortly after the block expires. (See the block log for the user's previous account.) Perhaps it's something we should consider more fully.

If you want to know what the dispute is about, then I recommend http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/health/psychology/21gender.html as a starting point. It's not very long, and there's even a Wikipedian named on the second page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you think we'd be able to get consensus for a topic ban from that page? I've already stated at the talkpage that Darlie's tendentious editing is readily apparent, but I don't know how many friends Darlie has that would stonewall that attempt. I'm not having a hard time keeping my cool there, but this is long past the point of being productive; I think the community would be receptive to a topic ban proposal. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

A block for persistent edit warring is likely to be simpler, and is the more usual outcome for IPs.

Despite a note at User_talk:Danielklotz wishing that DarlieB (and I) would go away, I'd guess from comments at past mediation attempts that Jokestress and/or Dicklyon might object to a topic ban for Darlie, more or less on the grounds that it would be unfair to ban a relentless POV pusher on "one side" without banning an equal number of people on the "other side". Beyond that... nobody supports DarlieB's version, not even Jokestress. Jokestress may decline to revert the obvious bias, bad grammar, and half-truths, but this is largely because Jokestress shouldn't be editing the article at all; you will not find any comments from anyone that support DarlieB's efforts.

As for whether a block or a ban is the better choice: Since abandoning the registered account, DarlieB has pretty much edited only on this subject. Therefore there is almost no practical difference between a topic ban and a block of the same length. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:00, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

It's way easier to topic ban an individual than it is to indef an IP; if an indefinite topic ban were imposed on Darlie, that would be more effective since IPs are just about never indefinitely blocked. Just my thoughts, though. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

True enough, if you're hoping for a long-term or indef ban. Would you like to propose it at a suitable noticeboard? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do tomorrow; I'm not up for the drama tonight, but I'll start an ANI thread tomorrow if I haven't been beaten to it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:58, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk header

This seems to have broke the talk header. Not sure how to fix it... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:51, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

It seems to work for me. What specifically isn't working for you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

If you look at WT:MED the image dose not appear and you have the text "Insert non-formatted text here" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:57, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The image shows on my screen, in the upper right corner of the table cell, with a caption of "Welcome to the doctor's mess". Have you tried purging the cache?

I found the "non-formatted text" line, and removed it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:13, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Advice to editors.

On 3th April on COI you stated that editors should ignore Blackash when she makes comments on the discussion page. I find this advice rude and and not at all helpful in the light of the present situation where she has been topic banned for no difinitive reason. If an editor is called to justify their edits, aren't they obligated to reply. My take on your advice is that I can edit and dont have to explain why. This gells with Colincbn, Martin, Duff, and Griseums' behaviour where they barely answer or dont answer questions regarding their edits. Their favourite tactics are to attack the questioning editor with questions like "who are you? or change discussions or talk about an editors' behaviour. It has been noted on the talk page that these editors are hostile to editors with a different point of view. They also fill the page with rhetoric. In short is your advice in this instant really what you want other editors to listen too? Does this advice comply with Wiki policy?Sydney Bluegum (talk) 12:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sydney Bluegum (talk • contribs)

You might like to read WP:SHUN. It can be highly effective, especially when applied with intelligence and discretion.

I am sorry to hear that the environment at that article is still so dysfunctional. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Can you stop trying to change people's definition on the page like you're better?

Thanks.

And if you do , can you go and explain yourself so that I don't think you're some arrogant nin come poop? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.201.185 (talk) 17:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The only reason that I removed your definition from teenage pregnancy is because your definition is actually wrong. A woman who gets pregnant the night before her 20th birthday is not considered a "teenage pregnancy". Teenage pregnancy is about teenage motherhood and the easily verifiable, uncontested date on which the pregnancy ends, not about someone's guess at the date of conception. (And it's the "guess" aspect that makes modern researchers refuse to use the date of conception.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:05, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Oh I'm sorry, I really thought you were trying to fight me, but you are right. Like you said: "common sense , is no more" no wonder we are so messed up. Even if technically that's how it is (she was pregnant the whole time she was nineteen, and then the day after she turns 20, it's not considered.) Thanks for being on my side. I had jumped to conclusions prematurely about you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.201.185 (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

You're forgiven. I was surprised at the lack of common sense when I originally discovered this slightly strange definition myself, so it seems only natural to me that most people would have the same initial belief that I did. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Rhabdomyolysis

Hello there. In the past you have shown an interest in the rhabdomyolysis article. I have started to work on it again, with the aim of making it of sufficient quality to withstand FAC. I have replaced a lot of non-MEDRS sources with better stuff, and have expanded it with material from Bosch et al in their NEJM review. Currently I am adding the paediatric angle. I suspect there will still be a fair amount of ironing out to do before we send this for peer review or FAC, and I was hoping if you could apply your powerful searchlight to it again and poke holes in the weak bits that I can then go ahead and fill. JFW | T@lk 10:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye out for it, but an actual review may have to wait until next week or so. Feel free to ping me about this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:58, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

In-text attribution

In the conversations over WP:V you mentioned an example of the problems of unsing in-text attribution using EB1911. Over the last 48 hours I have been working on converting a simple template for a type of PD source into a more comprehensive one and then converting the instances of {{WaceBio}} into {{DCBL}}.

As a side issue I am going through the 2 dozen affected articles adding citations, as the original text carries non (it was added some years ago when the demand for citations was not as comprehensive as it is now). In doing this I have come across three basic types of copies:

• Patriarch Macedonius II of Constantinople copy with a few minor changes;
• Patriarch Fravitta of Constantinople close paraphrase;
• Patriarch Euphemius of Constantinople copy and close paraphrase of two merged PD sources;
• Patriarch Euphemius of Constantinople copy and close paraphrase of two merged PD sources.

The first two would be stylistically stunted, but I think that the last two would be impossible to keep in their current format unless they were completely rewritten as if using standard copyright material -- a restriction I see harming the project. -- PBS (talk) 12:39, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi PBS,

Thanks for your note. It looks like you redirected the WaceBio template; as they basically say the same thing, that seems reasonable to me.

I think that even if "Macedonius" is word-for-word out of the DCBL, that spamming "According to DCBL" into every paragraph is a Bad Idea. A suitable inline citation should be sufficient (one that—as this template does—says "We took these sentences out of this source", not one that says "We took these facts out of this source").

As for "Fravitta" and "Euphemius": IMO the primary problem with close paraphrasing problem is copyright, not plagiarism. Plagiarism is immoral but not illegal, and what exactly 'counts' depends significantly on context. The pithy phrase for which we require in-text attribution today might be such a common aphorism a decade or a century from now that in-text attribution would be unthinkable. As a result, I think those two should basically be left alone, neither adding "According to ___" to every other sentence, nor dramatically re-writing them. There's no actual problem there, just a pretend problem invented by people whose go-to source supply is this morning's news feed.

I've been thinking about this problem in more general terms, and wonder what you think about this recent idea: We need attribution because of our GFDL and CC-BY-SA licenses—but that attribution can be in an edit summary rather than INTEXT and INLINE. Perhaps believing that "right in the readers' faces" is the only possible form of source attribution (that is, confusing WP:ATT with "the kind of attribution needed by the license") is the source of our problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:24, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

RFC at WikiProject Good Articles

Are you still willing to start the RFC that we have been discussing phrased in neutral terms? It may be more productive if an unaligned party kicks it off. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 20:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree that it would be best to have an 'unaligned party' start any RFC.

It sounds to me like Imzadi weakly opposes the RFC, but wouldn't actually object to holding it. Is that your impression?

It also sounds to me like Geometry guy is not pleased with the choice of WT:WPGA as the target location. Is there another page that would work just as well, from your perspective? Among the options you might consider are WT:COUNCIL (WikiProject advice pages are within their remit), WT:USRD/STDS (the advice page in this particular dispute), and a stand-alone RFC as a subpage of WP:RFC. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:11, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

You are correct that Geometry guy does not like the idea of the RFC and views it in terms of USRD/STDS vs. GA criteria, rather than GA criteria vis a vis any WikiProject standards. If he saw your formulation as being more of the latter, do you think he would object to WT:WPGA? Obviously, I want it to be seen by as many reviewers as possible. WT:COUNCIL seems to get very little traffic, although it would be a good idea to put a notice there. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 04:41, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like WikiProject Council gets more traffic than WikiProject Good articles; see Wikipedia:Database reports/WikiProjects by changes. I intend to formulate the question in general terms, and also to present what I believe is the current consensus. IMO any of these pages would be adequate, and it could be announced at whichever places aren't chosen.

NB that I don't intend to start this RFC for a couple of days. It is my belief that a few days' distance from the end of the RFC/U would be helpful for everyone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:50, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Please put me down as "strongly" not "weakly" opposed. Thank you. Imzadi 1979 → 05:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree that a few days gap is a good idea. It probably does not matter very much where it is located so long as it is widely advertised by placing a neutrally-worded notice on the other possible talk page locations. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 16:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I have started drafting the question for the RFC, but real life is going to prevent me from posting it on the schedule I'd originally envisioned. Feel free to ping me about it in a few days if it's not up by then. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:28, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Response to note.

Hello, Please forgive me if this isn't the proper method of answering your note at the vasectomy talk pages. I copied it here so you are aware that I've read it..

Your comment:

Vandalism is not the only reason to protect an article for a while. Edit warring—including "slow" edit warring, of the sort seen here—is a perfectly acceptable reason to impose full protection. Your goal needs to be resolving the dispute. That means proposing language that you can both live with, not yelling past each other on the talk page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

COPIED TEXT of my response:

I see. I didn't see that in WP:PP which is all I have to go on, hence, Wikipedia's policy. I've offered that someone actually show me where there is an edit-war at all. There was one event regarding the words "effect" and "affect" which I've owned up to as an error. The rest of the edits are a Constant Increasing of article content. If users cannot count on Wikipedia policy as written (in order to anticipate what might happen), then all we can do is try our best. Much Respect, Dijcks HotTub Pool 01:49, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

• Also, You may not be aware that 1.5 hours prior to your message, that I offered a WP:TRUCE to the other editor on the same talk page, which means that maybe you haven't seen all the elements of this very long dispute?
• Yelling is typing with ALL CAPS RIGHT? I have not done that, other than to highlight a word or two, or to distinguish between certain ideas.

I don't want to lose favor with administrators, but if I can't read, trust and then act within the guidelines of the Wikipedia policies, then it makes it very difficult to know what to do. I point these things out not to be difficult, but to evidence disparity in how policy is written, and then how I (or others) perceive it, and then what admins ultimately ultimately do. Maybe the policy should be written to include these possibilities, so we can expect it when discussions get heated on the talk pages? If there is anything I've overlooked please accept my apologies? Dijcks HotTub Pool 02:29, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Hi Dijcks,

You are always welcome to leave a note for me here. I'd been thinking about leaving you a note anyway.

The situation at the article is described at WP:PP#Content disputes. The offer of a truce doesn't change the situation. Any style of yelling—whether in all caps (which is unusual on Wikipedia) or bold-face or <strong>text formatting or in tone—might trigger it. Having an article protected is not a type of punishment or shaming. It's a tool we use to force people to the talk page, and only the talk page.

When you're dealing with a difficult dispute, it's often helpful to limit yourself to one edit per page day, or two at the very most. It slows down the rate of fire on the talk page, which gives other people a chance to join in (and makes the other party spend more time thinking and less time reacting). When the discussion gets too long, people don't read it anyway, so there's not really any point in posting a bunch of long messages in rapid succession. Try this strategy:

• Pick out the one issue that needs to be addressed immediately (hint: that's almost never going to be perceived insults). "Priority" means "what's done first", not "what's most important". Identify your priority, and focus on it.
• Write the shortest and calmest possible answer to it—but off-wiki, in e-mail or a word processor. I've heard experts say that a maximum of five sentences is often best for an e-mail message, so perhaps that's something to aim for.
• Wait at least an hour (overnight is better) before you post it. Do something else in the meantime: eat, sleep, go for a walk, edit some other article. Pick something edifying or that will improve your mood. Let your opponent wait for you to respond on your own schedule. If your planned message still seems to be a good idea, then post it. Otherwise, revise and repeat. There's nothing wrong with making your opponent cool his heels for a few hours while you sort out the best way to reply.

After that—don't even check to see if there are any responses for at least a couple of hours. Don't dedicate your day to responding on your opponent's time table. Don't reply to any comments until the next day (or at least half a day). Let it sit. If you're attacked, let other people answer it.

This process tends to calm down discussions be removing the frantic pace and replacing off-the-cuff, frustrated, scattered remarks with brief, pointful, focused comments that you've taken some time to think over. That alone would be valuable, but it also has an irrational but highly desirable side effect: other people almost always think that the calm, rational editor is the person whose view is very probably the right one, especially if the other "side" keeps insulting people.

I grant that it's not easy, but I recommend that you try it. You are likely to be pleased with the results. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to check in to let you know that I have read this last note, and that I very much appreciate the excellent advice.

I do want to come back to ask a few questions that I hope you can help with. I'd like to find ways to round-out my participation here after finishing my content contributions to vasectomy. It appears currently, that the clock will simply run out on the page protection as I've seen nothing that would suggest a willingness to find middle-ground by this other individual. I'd like to start learning what areas to spend time in, both learning and contributing so that I can in the near future take that run for RfA. Unless another area gets my attention I will likely try to find ways to be useful in the medicine/health areas. More later, thanks.. Dijcks HotTub Pool 09:19, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Caps

Hey WhatamIdoing, High Flow Therapy is the name used most often in the industry for this treatment modality. If you insist "high flow therapy" can be used. However, I have read dozens of articles in the medical literature, and have not seen it called "high-flow" therapy. As noted it is called transnasal insufflation by some researchers, and heated humidified high flow therapy by others, however, the usual name in most of the medical literature and the name used by most vendors of the equipment is High Flow Therapy. Please do not change the name of the treatment on a whim, or because it may appear more grammatically correct. Strangecow

Hello, Strangecow. The house style is to use sentence case rather than Title Case for articles. The hyphenated form is grammatically correct, but if the sources do not follow the grammatical standard, then it can be WP:MOVEd to the unhyphenated form (something you can do yourself). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Rape#Definition of rape / sexual assault

It's about whether or not the articles should be merged/whether or not the Rape article should exist. You and Doc James battled this out before on the Rape talk page, but it would be good to again have your reasoning there for objecting to Doc James's most recent proposal in this regard. Flyer22 (talk) 01:24, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello, WhatamIdoing. You have new messages at SMasters's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Changes on OSA page

Hello -

Re: your revert of my change of the affirmative statement about cardiovascular disease being "the most serious" consequence of Obstructive Sleep Apnea: any affirmative statement such as that has the quality of opinion. I know we're splitting hairs on semantics, but saying that cardiovascular disease is more serious than motor vehicle accidents, increased risk of diabetes, or simply feeling tired every waking minute is a matter of opinion. I'm not saying that one is more important than another, but the way I reworded it (something along the lines of "one of the most serious consequences") was both honest to that point and didn't take away any of the intellectual value of the rest of the section.

Cknoepke (talk) 17:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)