Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
If you want to propose something new that is not a policy or guideline, use the proposals section.

Please see this FAQ page for a list of frequent proposals and the responses to them.

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What's wrong with trivia sections?

I like them. I like to look up such information in Wikipedia. It seems to be a better place to find some of these items than other sources.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Trivia sections. Dcoetzee 21:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

When should a trivia section be removed from an article? SMP0328. (talk) 21:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the basic reason is that you wouldn't find lists of trivia in an encyclopedia. It makes it look less professional. Trivia sections can be used like outlines to figure out what the article should say, but leaving it as a list of facts makes it look like no work was put into the article. Matt (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I guess it doesn't look professional, but in a lot of cases you wouldn't be able to find a lot of supporting information to go with those details.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:42, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Trivia almost by it's very definition is not notable, and therefore should not be included in an Encyclopedia that prides itself on notability. I Feel Tired (talk) 21:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:UNDUE - by definition, trivia is not that "important" to the topic, although it might be interesting to a lot of people. If we have a lot of trivia, then we are giving it undue weight in the article, which violates a WP policy. Karanacs (talk) 21:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

There's a common confusion between "trivia" and lists of miscellaneous information. Truly unimportant or irrelevant information should be removed no matter where it appears in an article. The current consensus is that what constitutes "unimportant" information is an editorial decision that there aren't really guidelines for. Truly useful or interesting information should be presented in a coherent, organized manner, not as a disorganized list of facts. Dcoetzee 22:13, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

My pet example for how tribia (or in this case "in popular culture" sections tend to spiral out of controll is Chakram. You have 4-5 short paragraphs about the real thing and then a page and a half of various game and movie characters who have used vaguely simmilar weapons... I mean I can see Xena deserving a brief mention maybe but geez. It's been savagely trimmed in the past, but tend to genenerate itself over time. --Sherool (talk) 00:19, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The pop culture trivia sections are simply backwards for the most part. It's helpful to annotate pop culture articles with explanations of what they reference, such as a video game article linking to chakram to explain a character's weapon in that game. But conversely, it's not helpful for articles to blandly list every single work of pop culture that's ever referenced them. It doesn't explain the topic any further, and if you really wanted to know everything that ever merely referenced chakrams you'd click "what links here" or just google it. Postdlf (talk) 02:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I like trivia, and Wikipedia has become my place for finding it. That may conflict with the project's goals, but it's what I do. Search engines don't know what I want, but conscious decisions went into Wikipedia, even if they technically broke rules.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 13:23, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

it isn't the least in conflict with the project goals. It's in conflict with what a vocal minority have thought to be the project's goals. There was a period about 2 years ago when it looked like they were vocal enough and active enough at AfD to appear to be a consensus, but fortunately that is no longer the case. There are repeated attempts at revival of this, and due to the randomness of AfD decisions, they sometimes succeed. That said, there is a line beyond which something is no longer encyclopedic--an example is fan fiction. DGG (talk) 23:29, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

To be honest there should just be an entire new wiki for cultural references. This wiki could hold all the references that works derive inspiration from (i.e. the references that the Star Trek franchise has to the works of William Shakespeare), and in turn all the fancruft could be moved to that wiki instead of just deleted outright. That way, the project's goal of notability is preserved, and the fans still have a place to post references. PS: Yes, I know, this isn't exactly something for Village pump - policies, but I felt it necessary to comment specifically on the trivia policy with this. Toad of Steel (talk) 20:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I've been saying for a while that someone needs to create something like Wikitrivia so all the people who want that stuff have a place for it and everyone who wants an encyclopedia at Wikipedia like it's supposed to be won't have to put up with that nonsense. DreamGuy (talk) 20:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

So how come it hasn't come to fruition? There are certain times I like fancruft in certain areas as much as the next fanboy (i.e. in South Park, Star Trek, Spore, etc), and I particularly like seeing the myriad ways works reference other wotks, but if the goal of the project is to provide encyclopedic material, this seems like the easiest way to resolve the issue in a manner that is beneficial to all parties involved. Toad of Steel (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Probably a combination of just needing someone to take th initiative and the fact that the people most interested in pointlesss trivia want to force it here instead of somewhere else because they don't get th entire concept of an encyclopedia. DreamGuy (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Like it's supposed to be? Who are these people who don't want to include items that meet the inclusion criteria? Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Give me a break. The kinds of trivia we are talking about most certainly do not meet inclusion criteria. See WP:ENC if you need it spelled out in simple language. DreamGuy (talk) 21:47, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

If it doesn't meet the criteria, it should be deleted whether it's trivia or not. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Notability criteria are for separate articles, not for within article details; in other words to meet the criteria each and any line of trivia should warrant a stand-alone article.

Why no trivia. If it is important for the article it can be integrated into a relevant other section; or get a specific own section (for example a section with references to popular culture like is common in the Chuck episode articles. If it is just a loose random fact that has nowhere to go it should be deleted. Most Trivia sections are made up out of the last type. Arnoutf (talk) 22:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

That's what WP:TRIVIA essentially says. If the topic is notable and the inclusion of trivia doesn't interfere with other P/G's (especially WP:UNDUE), I see no problem. Although I should add that this type of thing is easier to deal with on a case-by-case basis with common sense. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 22:35, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think WP:UNDUE covers it, exactly. That's mainly to keep the fringe viewpoints to a minimum. I work with music articles a lot, and I see this song was featured in movie X all the freaking time. I could care less, but some people feel that a song's prominence in pop culture is a valid, encyclopedic topic. -Freekee (talk) 00:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Links that don't go where you think

I'm not sure where this belongs. In two articles to which I made major contributions, a link to AT&T was included. This seemed reasonable in that the company was called AT&T at the time the events in the two articles occurred. But I noticed a significant deficiency in the AT&T article when I looked to see if it referred back to the topics of the other two articles; this is one of the biggest companies in the history of business, after all.

I noticed there was a disambiguation page, and after some effort, I discovered the company I should have linked to, while called AT&T, was American Telephone & Telegraph. There was everything left out of the other article. I'm not really sure what the proper way to handle this would have been. SBC was a smaller company but is now the subject of AT&T because it has taken over and named itself after the big company.

I guess the best thing to ask is: is there any kind of project to see if other people, doing what seemed reasonable, might have linked to the wrong article? Of course it happens all the time with disaambiguation pages, and I should know better, but I do it too.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know of a project, but if you think an article has been improperly linked to, you can use the 'What links here' link to make corrections. Dlabtot (talk) 20:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

That of course implies someone will actually notice a problem.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I think that is best left to editors like yourself who notice that sort of thing. I know I've fixed my share, but I don't always follow links to check. Maybe we should urge more editors to check that when they're reading? But most of us have our chosen issues already. -Freekee (talk) 23:58, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Is answers.com an acceptable source?

I was cleaning up an article and found it used as a source. For an article I wrote and found very little information for, I found a great article, with good references, at answers.com (and since I was supposedly the creator of the article for Wikipedia, I know they didn't get it from here), but hesitated to use it as a source. I would not be able to access the references that were used, and the references were just listed, as opposed to footnotes where you know exactly what came from where.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

My experience is that there is a remarkable inconsistency in the level of quality from topic to topic. I would not ever use it, myself. Dlabtot (talk) 20:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Not in the least. What sometimes escapes people is the fact that Answers.com will actually mirror Wikipedia pages. Here is Jason Voorhees. Here is About.com's Jason Voorhees page. Anyone notice some of the minute similarities in information?  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 20:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

This is the article in question. [1] I was just looking at my article and it has been tagged for not being notable. The sources in this article would go a long way toward helping establish notability. Too bad I can't identify them individually.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:51, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

As for the article I'm cleaning up, I guess I need to do more cleaning. It even uses Wikipedia as a source! There was no references section before I got there, though.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 20:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which WP article you are working on but of course whenever you create or modify an article it's your responsibility to verify that each citation connects a reliable reference to an appropriate statement—so if you can't access a reference, you shouldn't use it. Nowadays I find myself checking citations here quite often, and a small but significant proportion do fail verification. Actually I'm sorry to say that (like some other obsessive editors) from time to time I pay premium online fees, visit my old University libraries and even buy out-of-print books just to check references. Of course, if you need access to Hoover's research you could consider contacting them openly and honestly (or maybe bribing or blackmailing friends who already have access, q.v. the essay that covers this approach). Good luck! - Pointillist (talk) 21:44, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

That said, I would be happy to help you improve bona fide articles where there's an existing level of reliable sources to prove notability. - Pointillist (talk) 21:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Answers.com generally compiles information from various sources, which they should cite on their pages. I don't know if they actually write any of their own content. It would generally be best to use the source that answers.com uses (assuming the source is reliable), especially as the answers.com pages seem to change often. Mr.Z-man 22:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I have a considerable respect for them. I'm not sure how the editing is done, but I consider a sourced article there as possibly usable if there's nothing better. As for mirroring Wikipedia , they seem to do that on the reciprocal principle--if they can find nothing better than us. (of course those pages are not considered reliable here, but it seems to be less frequent thaqn it used to be.) The RS noticeboard is the place for continuing this. DGG (talk) 23:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

In the case of the article I want to use, it appears the information comes from something called "Hoovers", but a search for that only gives answers.com.Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 15:17, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I understand now. Answers.com is displaying information from Hoover's, which is a research firm (a subsidiary of Dun & Bradstreet) that provides information on U.S. and foreign companies. You can look up the same company online at Hoovers (here it is), and cite Hoovers instead of answers.com. If you need more info, Hoovers can sell you reports on the company and its commercial landscape, etc. BTW, it might be a good idea to cut-and-paste this section into Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources ...I think that's what DGG means. - Pointillist (talk) 15:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Help me understand notability policy/issues related to Clean-up and clarity

There are a number of articles that I'm editing as a result of either a request for copyediting, or because they are stubs/starts in some subject. Today's example is Robert Haralick. He has a Ph.D. He has taught, sometimes as a part-timer, at various places. The article, where Haralick is an occasional editor, makes claims that he contributed significantly to the study of computerized vision. There are no citations. The external links that are on the page go to pages on Kabbalah and Torah. The references are all to his own work, some of it on computer vision-related topics, some on other topics (differential equations, the Torah). There is no evidence that his work is widely cited. I've put a notability tag on the page - but what do I do next, to get more input as to whether this article passes notability standards? And, since it has no citations other than the author's own work, what is to be done about that? Tags have been on it for about two years. What happens next? I've got a stack of these articles (mostly from the copyediting backlog). It's a lot of work to copyedit articles that may not even be proper content for Wikipedia. On the other hand, the guy clearly knows something about robot vision. Why aren't more of these articles about individuals merged into subject area pages (like Robot Vision)? If I'm ambitious, should I try to learn how to do that?--Levalley (talk) 22:00, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Looking at WP:Notability_(academics), Haralick meets item # 5 - "Distinguished Professor". Dlabtot (talk) 22:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. Well, then, so do I - but that's besides the point. My question is more specific. Is being a Distinguished Professor in one field a free ticket to have, in the article, work outside that field? I need to know what to do when the article jumps from discussing robotic vision (where it makes sense) to mentioning Moby Dick and the Torah, neither of which have anything to do with robotic vision nor is it at all clear what the article intends to say about them. I can add more tags (clarity) to the article, but it already has so many, it seems futile. I guess it just stays the way it is, oddly written.Levalley (talk) 22:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, I agree that might be an overly lax criteria - I've never even looked at that notability guideline before. I hardly feel qualified to give advice on copyediting, but I will give you my impression of the article. The lede needs to say what is important about him and why he is in Wikipedia. The rest of the article is too long, too detailed and as you note in one of your tags, too technical. Do we really need to know that He has developed the morphological sampling theorem which establishes a sound shape/size basis for the focus of attention mechanisms which can process image data in a multiresolution mode, thereby making some of the image feature extraction processes execute more efficiently. I don't think so. I think basically the article could be pared down to 4-5 much more general paragraphs. More power to you if you do so... that looks like some heavy lifting to me. Dlabtot (talk) 22:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC) btw, pattern recognition does seem to be a related field... Dlabtot (talk) 22:40, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

people who do scholarly work are noted for it, and there's nothing wrong with describing it exactly. the only problem with that sentence is the prose. The level of detail is I think correct. What helps is to list the two or three most cited papers, which gives a clear objective picture of the best known work. In his particular case, some of the work is controversial, and this needs to be discussed. Asfor the distinguished professorship, i do not consider the fields totally unrelated. DGG (talk) 23:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

You think the fields of robotic vision and Kabbalah are related??? That's a pretty nonstandard view, I must say.CDart (talk) 23:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The related fields are robotic vision and pattern recognition. His work is in pattern recognition, work which has been applied to the Torah. At least, that's what the article says. Dlabtot (talk) 23:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Quote sections

I first posted this on Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems#Quotes, but got so far no reaction there. It started from one particular dispute, but that's not really relevant here. The question is: are quote sections like the one in Chuck Versus the Truth and many other TV episode articles (and probably also other culture related articles) acceptable, or should they be removed per WP:NOTDIR, as a copyright violation (they are not fair use unless when they are integrated in the text and used with a clear, non-decorative purpose), or for some other reason (policy or guideline based)? Or should they be allowed? If they are not allowed, what would be the best policy or guideline to explicitly mention this? Fram (talk) 07:45, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

They should go on wikiquote. As for the copyright issue, it doesn't make sense to me, but last I heard the wikiquote stance is that it is, for whatever reason, not really a problem. --erachima talk 07:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the inclusion of quotes on that page, in additon to violating WP:NOTDIR, is wholly indiscriminate, places undue weight on matters of little encyclopedic value to the subject, and can be removed at any time because it is unverified, with the burden of verifying the information you object to on the person wishing to keep the material.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

The quotes are verifiable from the primary source, but every other point is correct and should be deleted. --MASEM (t) 15:25, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Unless there was something significant about the quote -- e.g. it introduced a popular catchphrase or illustrates some distinctive information - I don't see how it is appropriate. No copyright issue for short quotes like this, though. Dlabtot (talk) 15:31, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Allright, thank you all. I'll continue to remove quote sections like the one linked above then. Fram (talk) 07:25, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

How does the "All significant viewpoints" concept pertain to biographies?

There are various kinds of articles on Wikipedia, if an article is a biography about someone and part of this biography outlines their thoughts but isn't about the "Philosophy of" this individual - there are in fact other articles specifically about their philosophy, where is it stated in Wikipedia policy that "all significant viewpoints" means it's considered appropriate to cite criticisms of their work and thoughts in the biography. As opposed to meaning that facts about their lives and the fact that they authored certain works should be accurately presented - or if there's dispute about certain details that viewpoints regarding those factual disputes are represented?TheDarkOneLives (talk) 22:05, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

To which article are you referring? Dlabtot (talk) 22:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Should it make a difference?TheDarkOneLives (talk) 23:16, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

It probably shouldn't, but a lot of people find it easier to talk about things with a specific example in mind. John Carter (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it makes a difference. By looking at the actual article and article history we can form our own judgments about the facts, rather than relying on the characterizations of involved editors. Dlabtot (talk) 23:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm trying to understand your question... are you asking whether the Ayn Rand article should have a Literary criticism section? Dlabtot (talk) 23:58, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm asking if the "all significant viewpoints" means it's considered standard practice that an article that's supposed to be a biography should include criticism regarding the person's works - and if so where specifically this is addressed in policy? The Ayn Rand article is one I'm looking at. I've noticed people will cite "policy" in ways that don't seem supported by what the policy actually says.TheDarkOneLives (talk) 02:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I would have to say that an author's WP article should include coverage of their works and significant viewpoints about those works, yes. For example, in the Leo Tolstoy article, you can see criticism of Tolstoy's works from Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Woolf, Joyce, Mann and others... of course the criticism of Tolstoy is a bit more positive than that bestowed on Ms. Rand... Dlabtot (talk) 02:38, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

But my question is where is this addressed specifically in policy that "all significant viewpoints should be represented" means critiques of an author belong in their biography?TheDarkOneLives (talk) 03:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I thought I just said that. Dlabtot (talk) 04:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Where it specifically says that is at WP:NPOV. Dlabtot (talk) 04:50, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

We are trying to inform our readers. Dlabtot (talk) 04:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

There are lots of examples. A person is a philosopher, and their biography is mostly about their philosophy. Examples: John Rawls, Alonso Church, Saul Kripke, Donald Davidson. Seems to be the standard. Sometimes, someone else's viewpoints are included, but often, not all significant viewpoints. What I wonder about is just how much trivia is to be tolerated in articles like this when there are no citations for it (like, if someone started talking about what Ayn Rand likes to eat or what music she liked, but there are no sources. It's easy to find sources for the philosophical content and for disagreements about the philosophical content, not so easy for personal details, but still the details often remain. There are many philosopher-bios that contain absolutely no viewpoints besides the one of the person who is the subject (and some of those are self-edited). Makes writing those bios really challenging, but interesting. People should be encouraged to put up the various significant viewpoints that disagree with the person's viewpoint, in question.CDart (talk) 23:01, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll try to clarify further. There are two aspects regarding someone's biography. The historical facts of their life - born on this date, went to this school, married to this person, etc. There can also be their thoughts, their works. Is it specified anywhere that the "all significant points of view" is supposed to apply to both historical and intellectual aspects?TheDarkOneLives (talk) 10:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Procedure for temporary removal of permissions

The Arbitration Committee has adopted a procedure for authorizing the temporary removal of advanced permissions in cases where the Committee must undertake such removal expediently.

The use of this procedure by the Committee is not intended to constrain the authority of the Wikimedia Stewards to undertake emergency removal of permissions on their own discretion, pursuant to the relevant policies governing Steward actions.

The procedure was adopted by an 9/0 vote, with two abstentions:

• Support: Casliber, Coren, FayssalF, FloNight, John Vandenberg, Kirill Lokshin, Rlevse, Roger Davies, Vassyana
• Oppose: None
• Abstain: Carcharoth, Sam Blacketer
• Not voting: Cool Hand Luke, Newyorkbrad, Risker, Stephen Bain, Wizardman

For the Committee, Hersfold ^(t/a/c) 01:56, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Discuss this

Disambiguation pages

I was wondering about the rules for external links on disambiguation pages. WP:MOSDAB indicates that there should never be external links on a disambig page, but it seems like many disambig pages include them. I had done a little bit of cleanup on a few, but some of the external links were re-added by others afterwards (in some cases, by admins, which is why I now assume I was doing something incorrectly.) It seems like adding an external link to a disambig page brings up problems regarding things like which subjects are notable enough to have a link, as I don't think there's any actual checking of the subjects of these links, so I was hoping someone could tell me what the general practice is for deciding whether or not an external link on a disambiguation page is okay. Is this just a case of WP:IAR and people tend to decide on a case by case basis? Thanks in advance for any help you can give. Rnb (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I looked through your history, and I found plenty of ELs that you had deleted from disambig pages. But I couldn't find any that were re-added afterwards. Could you please specify which disambig pages you are referring to? Dlabtot (talk) 17:39, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Have you asked the admin that readded the links why he did so? That is usually a good place to start. Taemyr (talk) 17:45, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

The one that I was specifically thinking about was Mowgli_(disambiguation). Another is Moola, although I later re-removed it (which is not something I would now repeat, given my new questions about the policy.) I was going to ask the admin why the links were re-added, but given how many of these external links exist on DAB pages, I thought that I must just be missing something major, like a policy I wasn't aware of that contradicts the no external links guideline. If there's nothing blatant that has gone unnoticed to me, I'll go ahead and ask the admin. Thanks again for your help. Rnb (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Even if something blatant have passed you buy it's usually best to start by talking with the other side. Mowgli_(disambiguation) should probably be deleted. Taemyr (talk) 19:13, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll toss them a note. Thanks again for your help! Rnb (talk) 19:16, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

You are doing good work and I don't think you should be dissuaded because someone reverted you. User:ShakataGaNai, was right to change the Mowgli disambig page to a redirect. Per WP:MOSDAB: "Disambiguation pages are solely intended to allow the user to choose from a list of Wikipedia articles, usually when searching for a term that is ambiguous. This style guideline is intended to make the process more efficient, by giving disambiguation pages a consistent look and by avoiding distracting information, such as extraneous links (internal or external)." Not that I'm trying to imply that you shouldn't talk. Dlabtot (talk) 19:20, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• I've not seen many disambiguation pages with external links and undo them every time I see them. Go ahead and continue to do so, for you're correct that it's not allowed. DreamGuy (talk) 20:17, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
• You are completely correct to remove external links from disambiguation pages. Such pages help reader navigate between Wikipedia articles -- they are not intended to be a directory to the World Wide Web. older ≠ wiser 21:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
• Agreed as well. Disambig pages are not linkdumps. If the target of these links are notable, someone should write an article about them rather than simply linking to another website. Resolute 00:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
• There are legitimate uses for external links on disambiguation articles. For example: There are disambiguation articles where the external link is a bare link at the end of the item, with the article itself a redlink. Editors often add these external links to point to sources from which the redlinked target article can one day be made. You'll find, here and there, disambiguation entries like this:
  • Maud Sulter — Black scottish poet[2]
• Removing that in the name of "style" is actually making the encyclopaedia worse, not better. It doesn't help readers to lose the pointer to further information, and it doesn't help editors to lose the work that someone else has already done to hunt up a source. Blanket statements that external links are "not allowed" are not correct. It is correct to say, however, that this particular use of external links that you are talking about — changing the entry's internal navigation link into an external one — is wrong. It wouldn't help, or be appropriate, to have "Maud Sulter" as an external link instead of an internal one. Uncle G (talk) 17:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOT#DIR is an official Wikipedia policy. WP:MOSDAB is a style guideline that is based in part on that policy. Removing external links on disambig pages is not something that is 'done in the name of "style"', it's something that is done because Wikipedia is not a directory of links. . Disambiguation pages are solely intended to allow the user to choose from a list of Wikipedia articles. Dlabtot (talk) 18:14, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• • • Nonetheless, what I said stands. Removing something because of a style guideline is removing it in the name of "style". One has to think, not mechanistically apply a style guideline to the detriment both of readers and of editors. One has to think about the policy, too. A bare URL that points to an actual source isn't creating a directory. There's a difference between, say, linking the name "Maud Sulter" to Maud Sulter's MySpace page and linking the end of a paragraph to a biography of her life.

      There are several things that people do in the name of this style guideline that actually work counter to the collaborative writing process. This is one. Uncle G (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Sure, what you said 'stands', but it's still wrong. WP is not a directory of links, nor should it be. Disambig pages are not intended to be linkfarms. I have no idea why you keep bringing Maud Sulter into it. As far as I can tell, her name doesn't appear on any disambig page in Wikipedia so it seems like an irrelevant example. Dlabtot (talk) 23:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Hmm. WP:MOSDAB seems to indicate that links that can be used as future sources should be included as comments in the page, not as actual links (and also, that the only red links on a DAB page should be those that have articles pointing to them already.) I'll go back and make sure I didn't accidentally remove anything I shouldn't have. Thanks. Rnb (talk) 18:21, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
    • People, however, tend not to do that. The "poor man's citation" is still a bare URL. Moreover, it's not readily obvious that there is a URL if it is a comment. Ask yourself how many times have you edited the linking article when recolouring a redlink. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 22:23, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Well, this has officially become more trouble than it's worth, so I'm just going to leave them alone. Thanks for everyone's input. Rnb (talk) 22:34, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
• An external link that proves something is a notable topic and belongs in Wikipedia should be treated as a reference until the article itself is created. If it's so easy to create the article, the person who wants to remove the link should do so. Jemima PD (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Image copyrights

Was going to ask this at RD but maybe here's better. Anyways, why is it that Wikipedia has to have fair use rationale on copyrighted images and not doing so is illegal whereas movies such as Super Size Me (a film showing how terrible fast food is, primarily McDonald's) can show loads of copyrighted material such as characters, screenshots of McD's ads, and tons of other material owned by the company where doing so clearly hurts the company's profits? -- penubag  (talk) 01:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Just because something is against WP policy doesn't mean it's illegal, persay. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 02:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Our particular interpretation of fair use is rather strict. Also, there's the "use it without a license or fair use, cross our fingers, and count on them not suing us" route, which is used surprisingly often (and indeed is one of the reasons that people take copyright so lightly elsewhere). The strictness is good for us, because legal issues are one of the things that could do major damage to us. {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 02:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

• The fact that Supersize Me is a documentary, helps. Also, since it's an American film, fair use applies and critical commentary is one of the things that allows restricted use of such materials and the film is definitely a critical commentary. - Mgm|^(talk) 09:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Don DeLillo image

I'm searching for a Don DeLillo photo for my hu.wiki article that's not subject to copyright. All the pictures I looked at have the warning: may be subject to copyright. Can anyone find me one that's free? Thanks, 97.112.129.22 (talk) 03:42, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.129.22 (talk) 03:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Your only real chance of locating a public domain photo of this guy is locating a photo that was published in the United States without a proper copyright notice (see e.g. Commons:Template:PD-US-no notice). Alternatively you can locate somebody who can take and freely license a photo of him. Dcoetzee 06:08, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice (didn't help any). Oh well. One question, though. The en.wiki does have a photo of him--how did the editor of the article obtain it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.152.31 (talk) 16:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

The image File:Don-delillo.jpg was obtained here. Tra (Talk) 16:52, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I checked out the page, but couldn't find a clue how I could communicate with someone about that photo. Would you please kindly explain, why can't other Wikis use all the images displayed in en.Wiki? I thought whatever appears in the Commons is public domain. There's a huge confusion about this in the Wikipedias of other nations. 97.112.152.31 (talk) 18:27, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Whatever is in Commons is freely licensed, but not necessarily public domain. For example, GFDL or CC-SA licensed images are acceptable at Commons. Enwiki also allows "fair use" images in cases where a free image would be impossible to obtain. These are not on Commons and cannot be copied to Wikipedias that do not allow fair use images.

The image in question, File:Don-delillo.jpg, may actually be against our non-free content guideline, as the article indicates he is still living. I'll leave it to those more familiar with that sort of mess to handle it. Anomie⚔ 22:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

This is a mess indeed. The issue must be that the writer is still living. Same thing happened when I tried to transfer the picture of Cormac McCarthy. All right, but then, why are the British and American Wikis allowed to use these photos, and other Wikis are not? 97.112.152.31 (talk) 00:12, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the problem is that the Hungarian Wikipedia does not accept images used under 'fair use'. 'Fair use' is a part of law that allows you to use a small amount of copyrighted material in limited circumstances. I think the reason why the Hungarian Wikipedia community have chosen not to accept fair use images is because fair use is not recognised in Hungarian law. Have a look at their FAQ and image policy (translation) for more information. Tra (Talk) 11:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, this picture should not be on en.wiki in the first place. Living person means that it is replaceable and thus invalid by WP:NFCC. Marking as such. --MASEM (t) 13:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

That takes care of that, then. Thank you all. 97.112.153.149 (talk) 16:08, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Template:GFDL-presumed

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Template:GFDL-presumed - I don't think it's that controversial, but I'd rather it went out with a bang than a whimper. Please drop by the MfD and pay your respects. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 00:23, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Headings for navboxes

Note: moved from VPT -- John Broughton (♫♫) 13:13, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Recently, User:Butwhatdoiknow has been adding the heading "Related information" before the templates at the bottom of articles (eg, H1_antagonist#Related_information, Loratadine#Related_information). His rationale is summarised at User:Butwhatdoiknow/Related information. He has also added a sentence to WP:LAYOUT (here: "There is no consensus establishing that a heading is prohibited or required for navigational aids."). Well, I'd like to use this space to help establish that such a heading is not needed.

• No one has been asking for the heading. We have no evidence anyone (aside from its creator and a handful of others) sees a need for it.
• A header makes templates part of the article, which they are not.
• We can safely assume a reader knows how to scroll to the bottom. We need not assume our readership are morons: shall we have pop-up messages telling them there's relevant information just after the lead, or in the middle of the article? Shall we put "click to enlarge" in every image caption?
• Also in the "not morons" category: is there any evidence whatever that putting templates under "external links" has led anyone to believe those links are in fact external?
• Headers are for prose and information directly relevant to prose (references, notes), not templates. Moreover, the table of contents is for elements of the prose, not templates.

In short, this is a needless element of clutter that serves no real purpose, and should be eliminated. - Biruitorul ^Talk 16:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this page is the correct place to discuss this move; perhaps WT:LAYOUT would be better. Wherever it goes, feel free to say from me that this is completely unnecessary and undesirable, per all your points above. Templates are not part of the article prose, therefore they are not part of the ToC hierarchy. Happy‑melon 16:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

That would seem a more logical place for the discussion, but there was an ANI thread on this a while ago which was closed, with the recommendation that the issue be taken up here. - Biruitorul ^Talk 16:58, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

My recommendation is kill it with fire. The section heading that is. Ideally we'd find some way to make the navboxes render outside the gray outline of the main prose area to make the distinction clearer. Apart from that the histamine antagonists box seems way too big (well, it fills the entire screen for me). I'm guessing this is an unfortunate side-effect of standardizing all the navboxes to use a base template which cannot possible accommodate every desired layout. In particular there is a lot of wasted space in the "2nd gen" section. I doubt there is an easy way to arrange the first four link pairs horizontally, but keep the background colors, without abandoning the base template. Consider also a smaller font-size. — CharlotteWebb 19:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I had the same opinion a month ago; the user has become disruptive in his continued actions against multiple establishments of consensus, and it may be that time has come to review his actions for sanctions. ThuranX (talk) 02:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Note that this essay Wikipedia:Related information recently surfaced on the subject. I also don't think it is a good idea. Zodon (talk) 03:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all, the recommendation from AN/I was to discuss the issue at Village Pump/Proposals not VPT. The project-space essay (moved there by me) accomplishes essentially the same function. It represents a place to discuss the topic, and thaks Zodon for commenting there. It in fact was raised first at WT:LAYOUT (by me), where the message was that the layout guideline was descriptive, not prescriptive. So the only way to establish desirability was to try it.

Secondly, with all due respect to the "kill with fire" feelings, See also and External links are no more part of the article prose than the navboxes. Some people hate navboxes and feel that the prose itself should be all that people need. I'm a little different, bein' a geek and all, and love that Hn antagonists box, it tells a story all by itself. (As long as it's closed on default view) It's nice to have an indication that all that great stuff is down at the bottom.

Third, "multiple establishments of consensus" IMO is an inaccurate statement at best. Discussion is welcomed at the essay talk page. Franamax (talk) 04:08, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

NO. There's been far too much bouncing this around already, he's had over a month of leapfrogging the topic to perpetrate widespread attempts to force this idea on the project because everyone's gaming 'centralized discussion'. It's here now, let's settle this now. It's abad idea, with a misrepresentative title, and over and over, it's been opposed before being moved around again, to find more who oppose, so it gets moved again. It's forum shopping at this point. ThuranX (talk) 04:27, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is forum-shopping, but not on the part of BWDIK. It went to WT:LAYOUT first, which was not the right place. Since then it's been "bounced" around by Biruitorul in what seems as much a vendetta against the editor as against the idea. Do you have a question about the software operation of Wikipedia? This is the place to ask it. BWDIK started the essay a long time ago and tried to put it at WP:RFC (it got wiped out by a bot). The essay is in project-space now, it's a content/layout matter, not a technical issue, discuss it there. Franamax (talk) 06:05, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

1) There's no "vendetta" on my part against anyone; do review WP:AGF. 2) Yes, I mistakenly started the discussion at VPT instead of VPP. But can we just get over this silly detail of venue and achieve some sort of consensus? Move it to VPP if you insist, but that's hardly so important; do review WP:BURO. (And there was no "forum-shopping" on my part either; ANI recommended VPP, and I (nearly) went there.) - Biruitorul ^Talk 09:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Alternative implementation

To possibly move this in a technical direction, allow me to propose an alternative implementation.

The material in the proposed section is not part of the regular article content. Rather than bastardizing the table of contents by adding a section for material that isn't part of the article, it seems like this idea would be better handled by changing the interface to provide such indicator or navigation as is deemed desirable.

The language and category links are already handled with special interface features which make them more accessible. If it is desirable to have a special area for navboxes, or an indicator at the top (or in the table of contents) that they exist, or whatever, that should be achieved by changing the interface, not by changing all the articles.

This would

• Save work - don't have to edit all the articles
• Automatically be up to date (the interface can determine if there are navboxes or not at rendering time)
• Maintain the separation of article content from navigational extras
• Allow customization - those who want an indicator can turn it on, those who don't don't suffer the clutter,
  • Location and form of the indicator could also be customized (table of contents, sidebar, etc.)

Implementing the idea with a new section is not appropriate (as noted elsewhere). Handling it in the interface would be more appropriate. Zodon (talk) 18:50, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

And what exactly is the problem to this solution? --Kotniski (talk) 14:15, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Italic title

Ok I had a look through WP:MOSTITLE and couldn't find what I wanted so thought I'd ask here. I know you're supposed to use italics for books, magazines, species etc. but until today I had never seen an article (like this) which had it's page name altered into italics. It comes about through a sub-template of the infobox, but I was just questioning if it is allowed. If it is allowed shouldn't thousands more articles be italicised. (e.g. this).

On further investigation there was a discussion about this here, but it didn't seem to come to any conclusion. I personally think it looks awful and should be removed, but thought it should be discussed. Also I can't WP:BOLDly remove it and start a discussion that way becasue {{Taxobox name}} is protected.

Thanks, Rambo's Revenge (talk) 17:41, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks awful because the obliques of sans-serif fonts usually look awful, especially in larger sizes. But it is accepted practice for scientific names, and should be used more widely now that there is a way to achieve it.--Curtis Clark (talk) 20:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Is it also accepted practice for titles? I find it jarringly awful (though that may be just not being used to it). Rd232 ^talk 21:03, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it could use a serif font? Dlabtot (talk) 21:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Arguably, "Puijila" is hard to look at even unitalicized.--Curtis Clark (talk) 21:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I kind of like it for Latin scientific names that are conventionally italicised, even though it seems a bit unnecessary.

But I would dislike it if it was used for book and film titles and similar.

So I would like a rule that article titles are not  italicised, with possibly some exception like Latin scientific names. --83.253.251.213 (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay so it seems there is no existing policy about this. Where is the best place to try and gauge if there is consensus for or against it (I suspect this isn't the best place). Rambo's Revenge (talk) 22:25, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style.--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Okay. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Italic titles. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 18:02, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The manual of style - and indeed scientific practise - states that binomial names should be italicised wherever they appear. What does it have to say about references to film titles in articles? Martin (Smith609 – Talk) 14:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

As I linked above the MoS also states that film titles, books etc. should also be italicised. However this convention is not adhered to for the actual article titles. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 17:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

AutoArchiving by Miszabot

Hi, there is a user who adds the Miszabot archive notice on every talk page he encounters. To me that seems kind of pointless. Some editors like to read previous discussion and now they will encounter an empty talk page. This is not for articles like talk:George W. Bush where auto archiving makes sense but for articles like Talk:Val Verde (fictional country) which had only three comments since creation. Any second opinion on this? Garion96 (talk) 08:23, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• The whole point of autoarchiving is to avoid repetitious edits by hand. Tell the user in question that these edits aren't useful and that how often pages that have the tag are archived is something that should be discussed. _ Mgm|^(talk) 09:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Bot naming policy

A discussion has begun on whether to change into a suggestion the current requirement that bot accounts incorporate the word "bot". Please comment at Wikipedia talk:Bot Approvals Group#BAG and bot policy with regards to names. Thanks. Anomie⚔ 12:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikki as an agent for Global prosperity –policy on bilateral relations

A common point of agreement among even normally opposing economists and International Relations scholars is that optimal choices are less likely to be made in the absence of relevant information. For a variety of reasons outlined in the central discussion link below , there's considerable benefits for us to maintain a comprehensive list of bilateral relations. With almost 20,000 interesting permutations its too large a task to be delivered adequately by any one university or indeed by orgs like the WTO or IMF, even if they were equally trusted for neutrality.

Several editors with possible deletionist tendencies are moving to have as many of these Z – Y relations articles deleted as possible, even when notability is firmly established by multiple reliable sources, see for example the deletion discussion for India–Malta relations

There's a central discussion going on to determine consensus for whether or not the community supports having separate articles for the different relationships , and whether or not there should be a specific notability guideline for this class of article. With global population projected to increase by approx 3 billion and the peak not expected to about 2060, the world needs to collaborate both economically and politically with increasing efficiency, or else face escalating humanitarian and violent crises. As one of the worlds most widely accessed sources of information wikki has a key role to play.

Editors are invited to have their say at this link to the central discussion., including those who feel that bilateral relations article will often not be notable enough for inclusion in our encyclopaedia . Users such as Tone and Hans Alder make the case for not having these articles better than I can on the discussion page. FeydHuxtable (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Proposed change to WP:ATHLETE

Per this AfD, some are saying he's notable because he was drafted in the 2009 NFL Draft which I agree with but some are saying that he fails WP:ATHLETE because they claim you have to play. Which I disagree with I think that if you have been a member or been drafted by a top level league (i.e. NFL, NBA) that you are inherently notable. However the drafted part would exclude Major League Baseball since there's like 30 rounds and creating those articles would be meaningless. Also per this AfD who does in fact fail WP:ATHLETE because he hasn't played either but he is on the roster and has been since 2006. Now undrafted free agents unless they had prolific college careers are not notable since many get cut on the first day they show up, they must make the team before becoming notable.--Giants27 ^T/C 11:33, 27 April 2009 (UTC) --moved from talk page

Comment No opinion on the proposal yet, but if drafted athletes were to be accepted, it would include all of them, from all leagues, everywhere. That's a hell of a lot of people. Also Giants, I'm curious your opinion on the NHL. They draft seven rounds, and with 30 teams, less players. Yet those new articles are rapidly prodded or go through AfD. Grsz¹¹ 13:15, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Well I know NBA, NFL and CFL players are notable and more than likely NHL falls into the MLB thing because some draft picks don't join the teams minor league affiliates and play junior hockey instead so probably not really notable. While obviously MLB has like 50 rounds so unless it's the first couple of round then they're not notable either.--Giants27 ^T/C 14:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't beleive that we should hold players notable who are drafted, because they are drafted on poetential, whereas they have an article on WP because they have already done something noteworthy. Even a first-round pick could be hit by a bus tomorrow, in the in scope of the history of sports is he really that notable? My comment here has recieved no feedback, but basically I feel the simplest place to put the notability line is that players who have played in and only in the highest professional level (i.e. MLB, NHL, NFL, etc. Not minor professional leagues like AAA or AA baseball) I have no clue about European soccer players and how their leagues are set up, and from what I have heard is that currently WP:ATHLETE makes more sense for their leagues than the said US leagues. I also think it would be worth considering to specifically mention each sport in the guideline. blackngold29 14:49, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Like the old Wikipedia:Notability (sports)? Nanonic (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I would like to think that in the hockey project, we've found a reasonable compromise on this issue. Our internal project standards say that a first round pick is notable, but subsequent picks are not unless they have either played pro, or won a major award (i.e.: Hobey Baker, or a top award in any of the CHL's three leagues). Thus far, we've had little opposition to this standard at AfD. This might be a fair compromise for the NBA, NFL and MLB as well. Resolute 17:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

"Even a first-round pick could be hit by a bus tomorrow, in the in scope of the history of sports is he really that notable?" - George Pelawa. Resolute 17:11, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, there ya go. In the entire thousand year history of sports is George really that notable? I would make an exception for him because that's an extremely rare—perhaps one of a kind—event. I have less of a problem with first round hockey picks than baseball, as I said above I think the best way to go is to spcifically mention each sport. blackngold29 20:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Most NFL draft picks can pass as playing NCAA Division I FCS, which has been repeatedly deemed as the highest amateur level since there is no international competition in American football. I would think that the standard would be more inclined to become more restrictive than less, as proposed. Grsz¹¹ 17:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• There are international competitions in American footbal, IFAF World Cup and there are plenty of other national leagues, probably a European Championshp (and Asian etc.). chandler ··· 19:44, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• I have to say its amusing that someone is propossing to make it less strict when its one of the perennial propossals to make it more strict. Every 2 weeks or so on the talk page of wp:athlete. But no one can ever agree on the wording for making it more strict. -Djsasso (talk) 17:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• WP:ATHLETE should stay as it is (in this context, at least). Just because a player is picked in a draft does not make him/her inherently notable. What if said player never made an appearance for his/her new team? Would they still be "notable"? Notability is not temporary, and to speculate that someone may one day become notable under the terms of WP:ATHLETE is crystal-balling. – PeeJay 17:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• The theory, as I see it, is that a drafted player, at least for a first rounder, will experience a considerable amount of non-trivial coverage, thus passing the general notability guidelines. I also do not view it as a one event scenario, as their sporting careers will have spanned multiple events to that point. Being a first round pick would then become the hurdle they pass to gain enough coverage to pass WP:N. Resolute 18:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, and if they pass WP:N, they don't need the exceptions in WP:ATHLETE. chandler ··· 19:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• WP:ATHLETE and the like aren't exceptions. They basically reflect consensus as it stands. "If a person meets this, then they generally pass WP:N". Resolute 21:25, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Sorry, I meant general notability. chandler ··· 02:43, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• Isn't WP:Athlete supposed to be additive to WP:N? Basically, it allows athletes that don't otherwise meet the notability guidelines to have an article created for them. If that is the case, then I'd be opposed to loosening it to include draft picks. If a draft pick is notable, then there will be coverage of them in the press somewhere. If the only "notable" thing that they've done is be drafted and there isn't "significant" coverage of them by reliable sources, then I believe WP:ONEEVENT applies. This is particularly true of late round draft picks, even in the NFL. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:04, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Let's just ditch WP:ATHLETE in it's totality. WP:N standing alone is enough of a guideline, there's no need to expand general notability guidelines to include any other athletes. - fchd (talk) 19:31, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I worry that ditching WP:ATHLETE would result in the loss of many articles about notable pre-internet era athletes in places where English is not spoken because of the way WP:N determines notability. The first few Uruguayan World Cup winners may have too few sources readily available on the internet to qualify under WP:N but there is every reason to believe they are notable (achieving the pinnacle of their sport). Jogurney (talk) 19:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if it would be enough but every player ever to have played in a World Cup has a page on FIFA.com that show their record in the world cup and world cup qualifiers. chandler ··· 19:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Giving the equivalent of being drafted for a team notability does not work, that would mean all these players for example to be notable, just because they're technically part of the first squad, even though most of them only have played in the reserve and academy teams. chandler ··· 19:44, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, I have this debate every year with the MLS draft, but the American system of drafting players is quite different than the professional football academy systems in Europe and I don't think necessarily a fair comparison. People are usually signed to academies at far younger ages than draftees. Draftees almost always have relatively significant accomplishments in college athletics as well, so it builds upon this foundation to make the subjects more notable. matt91486 (talk) 20:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes they're very different but still it would be the best comparison, for example I think it was Rafa Benitez who got stick for having a first team squad of 62 professional players [3]. chandler ··· 02:47, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• We have dozens of articles created after the draft just for the sake of creating them. Really, what's the point of even having this or this, and the dozens more with only an infobox more? Looks like an easy way to boost somebody's edit count. Grsz¹¹ 20:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• Well, that someone was lazy in creating those articles does not argue that articles on such players should not exist, in my view. For comparison, John Negrin's article as it was re-created immediately before he played his first pro game, and John Negrin's article today. I came across the article for Evander Kane yesterday as well. A lot of information, and a lot of work, and the kid hasn't even been drafted yet. Now, that article could technically be deleted based on WP:ATHLETE, but he's obviously been the subject of multiple, non trivial RSes, won world junior gold, and is one of the top prospects for this year's NHL entry draft. Is the project served by deleting his article? Nope, not at all. And, of course, the more famous example from the hockey world is John Tavares (ice hockey). Or, to make a long rambling post short, top prospects, such as high draft picks, generally are notable. And that is what guidelines like WP:ATHLETE are meant to reflect. But yes, those football draftee articles are terrible, and need to be expanded. Resolute 22:53, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• This might be best to just let the individual projects determine notability for athletes that compete in their sport. You're never going to be able to get consensus for NA sports, let alone trying in bring in Cricket, Football/Soccer, the various Rugby codes, etc. For instance, for the NHL draft, there is a strong likelyhood that the player will play in professional hockey, but not so much in the NHL. Whereas the with the NFL draft, their best shot is the NFL and much smaller with the AFL and CFL. I realize there will be a great disparity between the projects, but it is really they best shot. Patken4 (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I firmly believe that the creation of sports biographies for individuals such as footballers who have never actually played 1st team professional football at any level should be strongly discouraged. It is the equivalent of creating articles on unpublished writers, singers who have never performed in public, architects that have never designed a building, etc. I also believe that WP:ATHLETE is too narrow to give effective guidelines for all sports. I think that we should move to establish something like WP:Notability of sportpeople with sport specific guidelines based on discussion and consensus between experts in the field as can be found at WP:FOOTYN, rather than something that was dreamt up by a lone user and established through lack of interest which has been criticised and debated on a nearly continuous basis ever since. New sports specific guidelines would give us much less ambiguous guidance for the tens of thousands of sports biographies on Wikipedia and would put an end to the same old queries coming up at sports AfDs over and over again. It is also important to remember that WP:N is king, whether we stick with a slightly reworded WP:ATHLETE or go down the sensible route of working out consensus based sports specific guidance. King of the North East 22:13, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  • See User:Grsz11/Notability of sportspeople. Grsz¹¹ 22:25, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Question about Citation Notices posted at the top of an article.

The wikipedia article on Harel Skaat has a notice (if that's the correct term) stating that the article does not cite any sources. It is also listed as a stub in the discussion page. I have expanded the article and also included 16 citations, but the notice at the top still remains. How do I initiate the process so the wikipedia community can consider removing the notice? Also I think the article should be elevated from Stub status to at least catagory C level. I also should add that attaining how to information is very difficult and the directions are often not clear.

Thanks, Hjquazimoto —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hjquazimoto (talk • contribs) 22:24, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

AfD notifications at related articles

I started a discussion at WT:Canvassing#AfD notifications at related articles. Flatscan (talk) 03:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)