Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mathsci (talk | contribs) at 11:21, 15 December 2012 (→‎Cla68 is editing here on behalf of Captain Occam). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Arbitration Committee proceedings
Request name Motions Initiated Votes
Persistent WP:IDONTLIKEIT behavior in WP:NCROY discussions   10 May 2024 0/4/0
Very brief and neutral name describing the topic of the dispute   15 May 2024 0/0/0
[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 20 Apr 2024 04 May 2024
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Conflict of interest management 13 Apr 2024
Mzajac 7 May 2024
Request name Motions  Case Posted
[[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#Clarification request: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light|Clarification request: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light]] none none 15 December 2012
Amendment request: Race and intelligence Motion (orig. case) 5 December 2012

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for clarification and amendment

Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
  • Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

To file a clarification or amendment request: (you must use this format!)

  1. Choose one of the following options and open the page in a new tab or window:
  2. Save your request and check that it looks how you think it should and says what you intended.
  3. If your request will affect or involve other users (including any users you have named as parties), you must notify these editors of your submission; you can use {{subst:Arbitration CA notice|SECTIONTITLE}} to do this.
  4. Add the diffs of the talk page notifications under the applicable header of the request.
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Clarification request: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Speed of light

Initiated by Seraphimblade Talk to me at 06:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Statement by Seraphimblade

Brews ohare is subject to a topic ban as follows: "...the Committee topic-bans Brews ohare indefinitely from all pages of whatever nature about physics and physics-related mathematics, broadly construed.", as passed by motion in WP:ARBSL.

This topic ban is more difficult than most to interpret. Everything that occurs in the universe, from a sunspot to biology to art to music to digestion is, however indirectly, related to fundamental principles of physics. I presume that the Committee did not mean the topic ban to be interpreted that broadly, as this would amount to an effective site ban, and if that were the intent, presumably the Committee would have simply imposed a site ban.

Recently, a request for arbitration enforcement was brought by JohnBlackburne on the grounds of an edit made by Brews ohare to free will [8], and subsequent discussion of this edit [9]. The opinion of myself [10], and three other uninvolved admins [11], [12], [13], was that this edit was a violation of the topic ban. However, two other uninvolved administrators disagree and do not find this a violation: [14], [15]. As there is significant disagreement here in good faith, it would be appreciated if the Committee could clarify the following:

  • Did Brews ohare's edit to free will violate the topic ban?
  • More generally, regardless of the answer to the above question, how broad is "broadly interpreted" in the physics topic ban, given that a sufficiently broad interpretation covers everything in the known universe? Or to rephrase, how close must an edit of Brews' be to fundamental physics to breach the topic ban?

Help on this question would be most appreciated, as it is an unusual case, and it would be helpful to both Brews and the administrators tasked with enforcing this restriction to have clarity on where exactly the line is drawn here. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by brews_ohare

As stated by Seraphimblade, the sanction as formulated covers a lot of territory.

One can take the view of some that brews-ohare is generally a problem, and any action to curtail his activities is a plus for WP. On this basis, a broadly worded sanction is ideal as it allows action to be taken for any reason. From this position, a clarification is exactly the wrong thing to do. Taking this view, the issue really is not what happened in this particular incident, but whether this is an opportunity to further curtail the activities of brews_ohare. Those seeing the matter in this light are not interested in the particulars of this incident, nor even whether they are actually an example of a pervasive pattern in brews-ohare's activities on WP. The assumption is that the mere fact that Blackburne has (again) brought brews-ohare before Enforcement is ipso facto sufficient evidence that brews_ohare is a problem and should be be disciplined.

My view is that Blackburne is the problem. He exhibits a strange fascination with making my activities on WP difficult, and this particular incident is only the latest example. I wish to assure all Administrators involved here that I am not interested in disrupting WP nor in thumbing my nose at Administrators. My participation here is strictly aimed at improving existing articles and writing new ones.

Rather than assuming brews_ohare is bad character, one can take a different view, that this particular incident should be looked at specifically, and it should be decided whether action has to be taken in this instance. Those seeing the matter in this light seem to think nothing need be done.

My view is that this view is closest to the truth. To support this view, some details of this incident might be helpful. Here are the details:

A paragraph was contributed by Richardbrucebaxter to the philosophical article Free will in this edit. I found the paragraph irrelevant to Free will, and removed it with some talk page discussion. Richardbrucebaxter disagreed, and reinstated the paragraph, where it remains in the article since.

There is nothing unusual about any of this activity, except it came to the attention of Blackburne, who was not involved with Free will, but likes to keep tabs upon my activities. He noticed that the paragraph in question contains the words quantum mechanics and so could be brought to Arbitration Enforcement as a violation of the "speed of light" action forbidding me to make physics-related editing.

Of course, physics was never discussed by myself. I simply found the paragraph turgidly written and not pertinent to free will. Here is Richardbrucebaxter's paragraph for your own judgment in this matter as to its clarity and as to its pertinence to Free will:

"Fundamental debate continues over whether the physical universe is deterministic. Physical models offered at present are both deterministic and indeterministic, and are subject to interpretations of quantum mechanics - which themselves are being constrained by ongoing experimentation.[10] Yet even with physical indeterminism, arguments have been made against the feasibility of incompatibilist free will in that it is difficult to assign Origination (responsibility for "free" indeterministic choices):[11]"

Clearly the paragraph mentions quantum mechanics, albeit vaguely. Clearly I had nothing to do with its content and did not discuss its physics.

So this hearing has a decision to make: how will the sanction be interpreted - in the harshest light requiring action to bring under control what is seen by Administrators as a flagrant and continuing disrespect for his ban by brews_ohare indicative of his bad character? - or in the light of what happened here, in this case?

Statement by other user

Comment by Johnuniq

While I have scanned several pages related to WP:ARBSL in the past, and have occasionally commented regarding Brews ohare's editing and talk page conduct, I am not familiar with the precise nature of the ARBSL sanction (I've read the words, but not the background). For those who are familiar with the history, wouldn't NOT BUREAUCRACY resolve the current request by considering whether the current activity is of the same nature as that which ARBSL was intended to prevent? If it is, an in-spirit violation would have occurred—that would warrant a very strong final warning, although perhaps not a sanction. I just scanned Talk:Free will and it is obvious that some kind of relief is required. Johnuniq (talk) 07:18, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • During the Speed of light case, three years ago, Brews ohare was found to have engaged in tendentious debates. When looking at the talkpage history of Free will, I notice that Brews ohare has dominated discussion in the past four months. I also note that this edit involves removing mention of physical models such as quantum physics, which is at least touching on the borders of the topic bans, but when challenged Brews ohare defends his actions, even though it has become a contentious issue. Given that Brews ohare's editing of Free will was contentious and tendentious and that he has been previously warned about his behaviour, I am concerned that he has not apologised and walked away from this issue. None of us are indispensable to any article, and when reasonable concerns are raised about our involvement in an article, it is perhaps wiser to either step back and edit elsewhere (there are over four million articles to edit) or ask for an independent third party to get involved.
I'll wait for further comments to see if sanctions and/or adjustments to the topic ban are appropriate. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think Johnuniq makes a good point here. Had Brews removed a joke about quantum uncertainty from the article on English muffins - ie where no-one could reasonably argue that it had a place - then that might have been unproblematic. However, all the evidence is that he removed the section from where it was because of factors to do with the physics - his opinion appears to be that these physical models are not a good fit, something that there appear to be several opinions about. As such I would have said that it goes over the border into the topic ban, particularly given the tendentious behaviour as well. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:44, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed that this is a violation of the topic ban. Considering Brews ohare's history, the decision previously was to restrict him from these topics in the broadest sense. We are seeing why now. SirFozzie (talk) 10:03, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment request: Race and intelligence

Initiated by SightWatcher (talk) at 01:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected
Race and intelligence arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)
Clauses to which an amendment is requested
  1. 6.1: SightWatcher topic-banned
  2. 7.1: TrevelyanL85A2 topic-banned
  3. Cla68's one-way interaction ban
  4. The Devil's Advocate's one-way interaction ban
List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request
Information about amendment request

I request that all four sanctions are vacated.

Statement by SightWatcher

I don't intend to edit R&I articles anymore if my topic ban is lifted. I'm requesting that it be lifted because I want to go back to being totally uninvolved in R&I, the way I had been for a year before I was sanctioned. When I was sanctioned in May 2012, my last edit that had anything to do with R&I was in May 2011. But my topic ban has often made me a focus of R&I related discussions even when I avoid them, which makes me too uncomfortable at Wikipedia to keep editing articles about books and movies the way I used to.

In the recent request by Cla68, AGK made a very insightful comment [19] about the current R&I remedies: "I do believe that some amendment to our current decision is necessary, because the current remedies seem to be as large a source of drama as the dispute itself was (before it came to arbitration)." AGK's point can be seen from the history of requests there have been about the same issues after the review: May 17 June 10 July 8 July 25 October 22 November 10 I understand there was drama in the R&I topic before the review, but there wasn't so much of it that a new arbitration request was happening almost every month.

The goal of sanctions at Wikipedia is to prevent conflict, but the decision Roger Davies wrote in the review is having the opposite effect. I had already quit the R&I topic a year before I was sanctioned, so the only effect of my sanction was attracting more attention to me. The Devil's Advocate explained here how another of the bans I'm appealing also has created more drama, and he and Cla68 can speak for themselves about their own sanctions.

I still don't completely understand the basis for my topic ban, or why it needed to include an interaction ban with every other person who's edited R&I articles. My finding of fact says I was sanctioned because my involvement there was inspired by an off-wiki discussion, and both SilkTork [20] and Roger Davies [21] said the findings do not allege I was deliberately recruited. This needs to be pointed out because my finding of fact has often been misremembered as saying I was deliberately recruited, even though Arbcom was clear during the review they did not support this claim. SilkTork also mentioned here that it's not problematic for a person to become involved here because of an off-wiki discussion. Since my finding of fact does not allege I did anything against policy, I don't understand why I needed to be topic banned when I was no longer involved in the topic.

The reason Arbcom rejected Cla68's request seems to be that they thought a full case was needed, as mentioned by SilkTork [22] and Elen of the Roads. [23] I would like it best if Arbcom could just lift the sanctions, but if they would rather open a full case, that would be okay with me also.

Response to David Fuchs: the reason I can't just ignore discussions about me is because I can still get sanctioned in discussions where I don't participate about articles I don't edit. That happened to me in the review. If Arbcom takes Elen of the Roads' suggestion to sanction the four parties I named here, the sanction against The Devil's Advocate will be another example, because TDA hasn't commented in this request. After situations like these, it would be very naive of me to think I can avoid being sanctioned under R&I just by staying away from the articles and discussions about them. As for how these sanctions can affect someone who doesn't edit the articles, look at the explanation TDA gave here.
There is one thing that's already been a danger if I don't participate in the discussions where I get brought up. Mathsci has misstated the reason I was sanctioned so many times that other editors (including some members of Arbcom) have sometimes forgotten what the real reason was. There's another new example of this in his comment below about "proxy-editing", which has no basis in any finding of fact, and was contradicted during the review by Roger Davies and SilkTork and also afterwards by Jclemens. [24] I expressed concern to SilkTork here that if I don't do anything to stop this, Mathsci's version of events could become a sort of unofficial amendment that Arbcom never endorsed. At the same time I also have to be very careful what I do, because as Mathsci points out I've sometimes been threatened with blocks for participating in these discussions. It's very difficult to know how to avoid both these dangers at once, but if my sanction could be lifted I wouldn't be in this situation anymore.
I don't care whether Arbcom lifts the sanction, or finds another solution. I just want this situation to change somehow. SilkTork's suggestion to include Mathsci in the interaction bans also could be a solution, but I didn't request that because I knew I couldn't request it without being reported at AE. -SightWatcher (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cla68

I have never edited R & I, and I find my unilateral interaction ban incomprehensible. I would also find childish reactions to criticism, such as this one (I think I will label this the "I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue if I don't get my way" defense) from someone who may be of adult age equally incomprehensible if I hadn't had so many years of experience dealing with Wikipedia's disfunctional and immature administration. Do whatever you feel is best ArbCom. If you want to continue to facilitate the ongoing, personal, years-long feud between an obsessive, established Wikipedia editor and an obsessive, established banned editor, while allowing thin-skinned admins to squish us peon content editors who try to say something about it, be my guest. Cla68 (talk) 01:52, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. ArbCom, could you please put a stop to this nonsense? How many more times do you need to be hit in the face by it? Cla68 (talk) 03:02, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Roger Davies, of course SightWatcher is spending a lot of time trying to get the sanction lifted, because he likely feels that it is really unfair. I believe the rest of us unnecessarily santioned because we got in the way of the Mathsci steamroller feel the same way. Have you ever been unfairly sanctioned because you spoke up about something wrong that was going on, then got pounded by a misguided admin like Future Perfect at Sunrise or Timotheus Cannens have done here? It really sucks to feel that level of frustration. Good grief, Roger, stop contributing to the problem and do something about it. Please think like Newyorkbrad and get some empathy for everybody who is involved here. All the rest of you arbs, I will be filing an Arbcom request soon about Future Perfect's role in facilitating the obsessive BATTLE between these two editors at that core of this problem. It won't stop until you take the keys from the steamroller and put it in the garage. I'm not the one driving it. I'm the one standing in front of it trying to get it to stop, and I keep getting run over. Cla68 (talk) 22:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
SilkTork, if you all impose a sanction on Mathsci, please make sure it expressly covers his public interaction with suspected socks/IPs of this Captain Occam bloke. If Mathsci can only use private communication to alert you or other admins about problems with alleged harrassment from that banned user, then that should stop other editors from getting munched by Future Perfect or Timotheus Cannen when we raise warning flags about the BATTLE taking place in Wikipedia's public spaces. Cla68 (talk) 00:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
NuclearWarfare, from just a quick glance here, are you sure you should be clerking this? You know, if the ArbCom decides to open a case based on my request about Future Perfect, you could be a party to it. Cla68 (talk) 02:03, 6 December 2012 (UTC) Leaped before I looked. Cla68 (talk) 04:51, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, it finally dawned on me what Roger Davies meant by "others are being trolled here." I wasn't trying to provoke a reaction from Mathsci with my comment above. I was restating the problem as I see it, which is that there is an ongoing, three-year battle in Wikipedia between two editors, one of whom is banned, that has been facilitated by poor decision-making by several admins, and which has resulted in arbitrary and unnecessary sanctions for editors who have tried to say something about it. I believe the evidence supports this problem statement, especially supported by the events of the last couple of days. Cla68 (talk) 06:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrators, could you please consider banning Future Perfect at Sunrise from the topic area and from using administrative actions, including participation in AE, in any way related to Mathsci? If you do so here, it will save me or someone else from having to file an ArbCom case request in the immediate future. If you need more evidence of his lack of objectivity besides his telling you all "F-you" over this a few weeks ago, then I'm fine with filing a case request. You may remember that Future Perfect at Sunrise has previously been desysopped. Based on his strong personal feelings on this topic area and towards Mathsci, it would likely save you all future work and drama if you removed him from the situation now. Cla68 (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if you were to ban Mathsci from public comments on-wiki related to Captain Occam or any suspected socks/IPs of his, that also save the wiki a lot of drama in the future. Mathsci should still be able to notify administrators (except Future Perfect at Sunrise) by email if Occam wiki-hounds him in the future. Cla68 (talk) 22:23, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mathsci, if you object to the lack of diffs, you should be joining me in advocating for the opening of a full case so this whole matter can be resolved. Here's a few just to get us started...there is some precedent to you objecting about something and then Future Perfect intervening and using his admin powers to take action on it. Here, you object to Loosmark's arbcom participation in Wikipedia, then Future Perfect steps in. Collect objected to your behavior related to Captain Occam this issue (I'm having a hard time keeping all the plyers straight), and Future Perfect warns him off. After you file a tendentious AE request on me, Future Perfect blocks me for electing to defend myself, then takes Mathsci's side in the AE discussion in which sanctions on Mathsci had been proposed, then quickly closes it despite objections from at least one participant. Future Perfect's desysopping happened after multiple violations of WP's policies. He has a history of using admin actions after apparently choosing a side in a Wikipedia battle, whether it be Eastern Europe, or the ongoing feud between you and Captain Occam. Please, let's open a case and this entire issue examined and put to rest. SilkTork, if I remember right you found some evidence that supported what I and others have been alleging about this. Could you please speak up? Cla68 (talk) 00:22, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Newyorkbrad, Don't you think the rest of us might also be a little demoralized? Cla68 (talk) 07:24, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, since it has been brought up a couple of times, when I told Future Perfect at Sunrise that he had "created this monster", I was referring to the situation not to Mathsci. A number of editors and admins have created the current situation in which if someone speaks up and objects to what is going on, they get slapped with a warning or sanction that is recorded in the Log of Sanctions, Blocks, and Bans for the case, even though many of them, like me, have likely never made a single edit to any of the R&I articles. This is the monster that Future Perfect has unapologetically helped create. Cla68 (talk) 22:53, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Case against Mathsci

First of all, I owe Johnuniq an apology, as my response to his challenge to produce evidence with diffs has gone taken almost week. Below I attempt to answer his challenge with some evidence showing why a case to examine Mathsci and his administrator enablers is warranted. Cla68 (talk) 04:19, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Outings

Mathsci has reportedly outed or revealed inappropriate personal information about other editors on four occasions.

  • 1. 2006 This was presented in the 2010 case. Roger Davies removed the diff from the findings because of its sensitive nature. I don't know who it was that Mathsci outed.
  • 2. August 2011. I'm told that in the edit summary, Mathsci revealed Mikemikev's real name along with a reportedly homophobic comment, "Stick to your boyfriend, and the sheep." Fred Bauder, who oversighted the edit, appears to have stated in August 2011 that the Committee was aware of what took place. Perhaps they can confirm if the information I have is true? If the information I have is not accurate, they need to say so so that I can strike this, as it is extremely pejorative about Mathsci and unfair if inaccurate.
  • 4. In spite of that warning, in April 2012, Mathsci again revealed inappropriate personal information about an editor, which necessitated oversighting of the edit. From what I understand, the edit linked a Wikipedia editor to an account in another Internet forum, where the editor had included personal information about him/herself. The editor's participation in that off-wiki forum had no relevance to the discussion at hand. Mathsci was not blocked for this edit, or even warned, as far as I know.
Wikihounding

Mathsci wikihouds and threatens editors with whom he has had disagreements. I present one example below, involving Miradre, who was an active editor until the end of November 2011, then edited as Acadēmica Orientālis from February until July 2012. The editor is not banned or blocked from Wikipedia. I will notify both accounts of this discussion. I'm not aware of this evidence having been introduced previously before ArbCom.

  • In July 2011, Miradre made some edits to the R&I articles that Mathsci apparently did not approve of, so Mathsci left a long, confrontational, and rather hostile warning on Miradre's talk page.
  • Mathsci then edit wars to restore that and other warnings to Miradre's user talk page after Miradre removes them: [25] [26] [27]. In that last edit, Mathsci threatens Miradre with a community ban in the edit summary.
  • Mathsci also threatened Miradre with community bans on two other occasions: [28] [29]. In the 2010 R&I case, a formal finding had been made that Mathsci "routinely threatens other editors with blocks". Apparently, he still does.
  • Miradre was topic banned from R&I. Mathsci, however, followed Miradre to other topic areas. He revert-warred or campaigned against Miradre's edits to the article Academia, an article that Mathsci had not previously edited. [30] [31] [32] [33]
  • Mathsci also opposed Miradre or messed with his/her edits at the article Public broadcasting, another article that Mathsci had not previously edited: [34] [35] [36]
  • Mathsci reverted Miradre at NPR, the only edit Mathsci ever made to that article [37]
  • Mathsci reverted Miradre twice at Social anthropology, the only edits Mathsci ever made to that article: [38] [39]/[40]
  • Mathsci reverted Miradre four times at Groupthink, the only edits Mathsci ever made to that article: [41] [42] [43] [44]
  • Mathsci accused Miradre of being a friend of another editor [45]. Somehow, Mathsci thought there was some kind of connection involving Sweden.
  • As far as I know, Miradre never said on-wiki that he/she lives in Sweden. Mathsci, however, confronts Miradre with it at least twice: [46] [47]. That second diff could be interpreted as extremely insulting. If Miradre never revealed that he/she lives in Sweden, this could also be interpreted as an attempted outing and as meeting the definition of harrassment.
  • Later, Miradre asks Mathsci to respect his/her privacy. The following exchange then took place:

Statement by Johnuniq

It is hard to see how a further discussion on this issue would assist the encyclopedia, particularly after:

  • Amendment request Initiated by The Devil's Advocate on 25 July 2012; closed around 18 September 2012.
  • R&I2 Initiated by Cla68 on 22 October 2012; closed around 8 November 2012.

SightWatcher's contributions suggest that the last two edits not connected with R&I disputes were on 15 September 2012 and 25 February 2012. My view is that more emphasis should be placed on the encyclopedia, and less on R&I issues. Johnuniq (talk) 02:47, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68's case against Mathsci

The case presented by Cla68 above demonstrates the adage that if fifty diffs and a wall of text are necessary to demonstrate a problem, there probably is not a significant problem. Arbitration asserts that conduct can be assessed without regard to circumstances, nevertheless, comments such as "Miradre made some edits to the R&I articles that Mathsci apparently did not approve of" distort reality because the matter was much bigger than what Mathsci approved of. I was partly involved and know that many good editors strongly opposed Miradre's edits as UNDUE POV pushing, and the user was topic banned for six months (at ANI), and they have not edited since being unable to promote the idea that "group differences in intelligence, which may in part be due to genetic factors" accounts for why some groups (aka races) are more successful than others—the heart of the R&I POV pushing issue. The majority of Cla68's links attempt to establish that Mathsci has hounded Miradre, but, for example, this NPR diff where Mathsci removed some text with summary "rv undue content" is exactly what should occur at Wikipedia. What Cla68's links do establish is that Mathsci believes Miradre has made problematic edits which need to be checked—that is a fair assessment backed by the community as shown by the topic ban. Outing is not permitted, but I am unable to assess the revdeleted links, however Matchsci should not refer to other editors except by their user name (and a gratuitous mention of the full name of an arbitrator, however obvious, should not occur). If Mathsci violates CIVIL or HARASS, a case should be made at a suitable noticeboard before throwing mud on an arbitration page. The quote starting "group differences" is from this edit; see my comment dated 10:45, 23 February 2012 on the talk page for some background (diff). Johnuniq (talk) 06:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikilawyering

In a statement initially posted here (but moved to talk), Cla68 is resorting to standard debating techniques, presumably to avoid having to substantiate their case against Mathsci, or to discuss whether they are in fact proxying for a banned user. Every lawyer knows that when a judge has exposed the weakness of their case, a useful response is to provoke the judge, hoping to elicit a response that would assist with an appeal, or even cause the judge to recuse. That technique should not be rewarded here.

This amendment request was started by a user who has not edited the encyclopedia since February (with one minor exception in September). SightWatcher's only recent activity has been related to poking Mathsci, and even that ceased two weeks ago. This request should be closed now—if Mathsci does anything in the future to cause concern, an untainted editor can raise the matter.

The way to stop repeated disruption is to stop it. Johnuniq (talk) 00:29, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Professor marginalia

Yougottabekidding!

If anybody falls for this bait (arbitrators, you're anybodies too) you're not being helpful in reducing disruption here. You're allowing yourself to be played.

It goes like this: when a decision's been made, and some user (puppets, much of the time but not not every time) pops the BigStinkbombs to unwind it all - it's not the user(s) targeted that are responsible for the "disruption" but the rest of us that chase and flap all about in these BigStinkbombs like moths to a flame.

Arbitration's ONLY function is to diagnose remedies when the "anybody can edit" needs umpires. Arbitrators are the umpires. Not that the umpire's call can never change, but it sure isn't the least bit constructive if the umpire's call can be changed for no other reason than because the injured player just won't stop making a nuisance of himself perpetually bellyaching about it. Professor marginalia (talk) 12:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad: Speaking as one of the maybe increasingly few editors who's genuinely grateful for the arbitration system no matter what decision it comes to because whatever decision in comes to, at least it's a decision, (a constructive step in and of itself), I have found this case immensely frustrating because it never ends. Decisions are too ambivalently expressed to be taken seriously as decisions! Decisions in this case have been treated not as "closing doors" but as opening new ones to argue the dispute again, and again. The problems exploding in R/I articles never really stemmed from Mathsci's "behavior". The initial R/I decision by arbcom may have lent more weight to the role of Mathsci's "attitude" than I agreed with, but by any measure since those supposed "behavior" issues have only arguably become even more "disruptive" after the won't-take-no-for-an-answer socks, trolls, and their apologist whoevers went off and re-litigated the same old issues, wikilawyered, continuing their crusade to circumvent what should have been resolved disputes through endless re-dispute, re-negotiated, re-thinked resolutions. That continued disruption is maybe half attributable to the "won't-take-no-for-an-answer" socks/trolls etc AND their apologists, who continue to offer EXCUSES for what's only more obvious today than it was when the initial R/I conflagrations were brought before the arbcom. The other half is a rag-tag, defacto coalition formed of those hedging or rethinking their own decisions, and those seeking to piggyback some of their own past and otherwise unrelated or meta-complaints about particular users. Mathsci's a rational human being, but he's not Mr. Unfailingly Polite Diplomat either. I don't know that any rational human being can be unfailingly polite, patient in the face of the infinitely crazy, "wont-take-no's", flowing in to comlain in this community, nor should they and thus -- here we are.
I really don't want to rehash the full R/I case because it's a waste of this community's time and an insult to its intelligence. I will say the R/I parties thus far sanctioned in the dispute are the most pathetically obvious agents of tricksy proxy/tag team/canvassed/sock editing that I've personally encountered on the wiki and whose sanctions are well founded and yet, still, doubts are raised here as if these "doubts" are a damaging case against Mathsci (and now Future Perfect)? Who are we kidding? This would have been a "well in hand" "dispute resolution" in anybody's hands if but for the zombie proxies and recent entrants/agents (and antics) seeking to piggy-back oldstanding personal grievances unto an over-arching, almost atmospheric "meta-level" dispute resolution. In my view the value of dispute resolution, and arbcom, is in putting to rest such noisy distractions. This nonsense noise by those bellyaching ad nauseum, in my view, certainly shouldn't be rewarded by arbcom - and hey, I know it's not an easy job, but deep down inside do any of you really see any long term value in rewarding those who won't quit bellyaching?
I know bureaucracies are clumsy as a rule, but can't we expect from arbcom reasons, opportunities, to shut down or shut out the distractions? The stupid stuff? Arbcom in this case has not only hedged and confused nearly every call, but now its flakiness is threatening to sabotage the admins who don their helmets and dirty their shoes enforcing sanctions in disputes just as you've expressly charged them to do. Arbcom's at the same time threatening to undermine much of the progress they themselves have achieved in this case. It's so perverse that while the evidence *against* those sanctioned has only grown over the years since-to the point that only the world's biggest idiots would continue to furnish "excuses" for them-opportunists will always be there to exploit opportunities, won't they? And, as exemplified in this particular case, whose responsibility is it then when the dispute resolution system rewards those gaming it? Professor marginalia (talk) 12:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So here's what I suggest:
  1. Reject this amendment request ASAP. The gaming employed at R/I back in 2009-10 was the source of tremendous disruption; the disruption fell to arbcom in 2010; several of the users sanctioned by the 2010 arbcom decision have continued, waging even more disruption by proxy; SightWatcher played no small part in it himself; the crusade-by-proxy continues; SightWatcher desires to have his participation (and others) be blacked out from the history of this case whenever Mathsci or anybody else attempts to show parallels or evidence of "the pattern" when the new proxies need dealing with in DR (hindering, in other words, appropriately dealing with them); AND this request was not prompted by any further dispute or R/I deterioration since the last R/I go-round but because SightWatcher just doesn't like its outcome-not that one, nor any of the previous outcomes of the case. (That's why he came to R/I in the first place--rebellion over the R/I 2010 sanctions!) There's no demonstrable merit to this request.
  2. Impose some kind of moratorium on requests to amend or appeal existing sanctions in R/I. The sanctions have improved the situation: mainspace disruptions have come way, way down; and socks and trolls have grown somewhat easier to detect, identify and deal with. So what's happening now is that the troublemakers' troublemaking efforts are "channeling" to DR pages, and ultimately here, which should render them considerably easier to deal with. But instead ARA (maybe because it's just so slow) is now something of a breeding ground where little nothings grow bigger and bigger, and metastasize, which is obviously counterproductive to reducing strife in wikipedia. None of the sanctions issued so far in R/I were so beyond the pale as to justify the chaos these incessant appeals leave in their wake.
  3. Please, please, please do whatever you can to Stop Sending Mixed Messages! At least in this case, R/I, "hints", "suggestions", "urgings" - they're counterproductive. Opponents are clinging to these hints and bits to reinforce their positions rather than relax them. And the mixed messages are also now complicating/implicating AE over enforcement of the sanctions you've imposed (potentially disastrous fallout, as I see it). I'm not suggesting anybody, certainly not arbcom, is to be "blamed" that their messages haven't connected. I'm simply trying to describe how, in this case, those kinds of messages too often get "heard" and lead to further disruption. Professor marginalia (talk) 07:17, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Heim

Risker, an entire case on one block, really? I was not under the impression AE required a consensus to impose a block or sanction; that rather, it was meant to be discretionary and require consensus to overturn. I wasn't a fan of the speed on the trigger, either, but a case would be really, really overkill and would undermine the discretionary nature of sanctions. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Fut.Perf.

@Risker: The opinions about the present block of Cla68 are currently pretty evenly divided on AE. I have made it clear that I don't consider it an "enforcement" block in the strict sense, i.e. I'm not squatting on its non-overturnability. As far as I am concerned, I will lift that block as soon as I am satisfied that it's no longer needed, and I've posted one proposal at AE [63] about an outcome that would allow me to do so. If somebody else wishes to overturn it, they can certainly do so. That's what we have block reviews for. But then they should take the responsibility for it themselves and should not expect me to do it for them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:40, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the AE thread has been closed with reminders to both Cla68 and Mathsci [64] (and I have lifted Cla's block accordingly). I hope this sorry sideline can now be put to rest and the committee can concentrate of what this request is nominally about. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:34, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

About the new motions: These same proposals were voted on just one month ago, and rejected. When people elsewhere on this project keep re-proposing the same rejected ideas over and over again to wear down their opposition, e.g. on AfD, their heads typically make contact with aquatic vertebrates rather quickly. Since when is "keep reproposing the same thing until you get your way" an acceptable strategy for arbitrators? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@SilkTork: You say that this is where "Arbcom comes in", and that something needs to be done to stop encouraging "more ArbCom and ANI postings". Don't you see how self-contradictory that is? There is in fact a simple way for everyone out of this situation: everybody simply shut up about it. None of the recent confrontations has had anything to do with the content disputes about R&I; it's all been on a self-serving, self-perpetuating meta-meta-level. This problem will go away the moment everybody just stops talking about it – and that includes not just Mathsci and his sundry opponents, but also you arbitrators. Arbcom has become part of the problem here rather than the solution. Arbcom is not solving this issue; it is only providing it with a stage again and again and fuelling it on and on. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:34, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Enric Naval

WP:AE has proposed a solution. Can you let the AE admins solve this? Arbcom is supposed to intervene when the community can't handle the issues, it's not supposed to shortcircuit AE. --Enric Naval (talk) 20:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Mathsci

The terms of SightWatcher's extended topic ban preclude him from making any request on behalf of others. He can make an appeal on his own behalf, but making requests for TrevelyanL85A2 (now AE-banned) or for Cla68 and The Devil's Advocate is not permitted. SightWatcher was advised by SilkTork in May to try to contribute outside project space.[65] At the end of June, EdJohnston spelt out that a request discussing TreveyanL85A2 was inadvisable;[66] at the same time MBisanz warned him that he would be blocked for one month if he attempted to make such a request.[67] If SightWatcher wishes to edit completely outside R&I with a different username, he can probably arrange that privately and discreetly with the arbitration committee.

Apart from monitoring sockpuppetry by Mikemikev (my userpage is protected because he made fun of my illness), I have not had any active involvement in project or article space related to WP:ARBR&I. Periodically there have been attempts to misuse arbitration procedures by a small group of editors, made up of the DeviantArt group of editors, some of whom are now site-banned, and their facilitators/sympathizers. I was a catalyst in bringing to light coordinated editing within the DeviantArt group, including proxy-editing and most recently sockpuppetry. Almost all of the arbcom procedures in 2012, although nominally for a different purpose, have been diverted into some attempt to "write me out of the equation" as Roger Davies has put it.

Each request after a certain stage degenerates into free-for-all criticisms of me which contradict previous arbcom findings and remedies (the original 2010 arbcom case, its amendment later that year (when sanctions on me were lifted after a four months) and the subsequently tightly framed review in March-May 2012). In this request SightWatcher has made no mention of me, but, as a named party, Cla68 took the opportunity almost immediately to divert the case in my direction. He has used this page and WP:AE as a place to make personal attacks, assuming some immunity in arbcom-related space. As Future Perfect at Sunrise carefully explained to him, it is possible to present arguments without undue personalization or insults. His attempted caricature of me here is not reflected in my editing history or the findings of the original report or review. The "battleground" word has been misused: originally phrased as applying to "ideological opponents", words dropped at my request, in the context used it referred almost exclusively to the DeviantArt editors.

So the post-review pattern is this: an arbcom request appears phrased in such a way that it might be related to me; an editor uses the opportunity to launch unreservedly into personal attacks on me, presuming immunity on arbcom-related pages; then I respond, or am asked to respond. That is my involvement at present with WP:ARBR&I. That is also how Cla68 has created interactions with me. We have participated in previous unrelated arbcom cases, eg MBLPs, and I believe he wished to use the review to criticize me for conduct unrelated to R&I.

The problem with any of the editing restrictions is that they are taken not to apply to arbcom-related pages. Roger wrote below that I was trolled, by which I assume he was referring to Cla68's first thinly veiled dig at me on this page. Later Cla68's gloves came off and he launched into a full-blown personal attack on me unsupported by diffs. He described me as "obsessive" and a "monster" out to destroy others—the Mathsci steamroller. As far as I am aware, that kind of conduct is not allowed anywhere on wikipedia, including arbcom-related space. Mathsci (talk) 17:46, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

SightWatcher has now commented on me, with the usual objective of the DeviantArt campaign: to have some sanction imposed on me. That and his own reluctance to take responsibility for previous coordinated editing, despite the off-wiki and on-wiki evidence in the review, is not a good sign. Captain Occam was himself just as evasive about that collaboration in this exchange on WP:ANI with Shell Kinney on 17 December 2010.[68] The pattern of "arbcom request on R&I issue --> parties sneaking in criticisms & requests for sanctions on Mathsci --> comments by me" could be halted by some form of motion restricting arbcom requests (the first step in the cycle), as Elen of the Roads suggests. Unsurprisingly SightWatcher is wikilawyering to keep that loophole open. He is also continuing to comment on other users, in this case The Devil's Advocate. In spite of the advice of SilkTork, EdJohnston and MBisanz, SightWathcer made a conscious decision to include TrevelyanL85A2, Cla68 and The Devil's Advocate in his request. He is now complaining about the consequences of that. Mathsci (talk) 02:10, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hersfold's motions

Beyond arbcom requests initiated by SightWatcher, Trevelyan85A2 or by others on their behalf, I have not interacted with these users or discussed them since the review closed anywhere on wikipedia, except in responses on arbcom-related pages. My own 2 requests to arbcom have just been to amend slightly the wording of the review and have concerned only myself. Of the mentioned parties, as Newyorkbrad has already pointed out, TrevelyanL85A2 will not be able to edit wikipedia in the forseeable future because he has an indefinite ban enforced at AE after violating his extended topic ban.

In the final vote for the PD in the review, the drafting arbitrator Roger Davies made this comment:[69] "I don't think it's in the best interests of the project for him to be prohibited from reporting DeviantArt recruitees at SPI and so on. If, in the reports, there's a connection to Ferahgo or Occam, Mathsci needs to be free, provided he stays within the rules, to mention it. I say this because the alleged steady recruitment of apparent DeviantArt friends to edit the R&I topic is probably closer to the realm of not-yet-entirely-proven than no-it-didn't-happen. Let's not forget that Occam and Ferahgo are DeviantArt alumni." That is exactly what happened with Zeromus1. The sockpuppetry issues with him were handled privately off-wiki with checkusers: firstly with Amalthea; and later twice with AGK when more on-wiki evidence was available.

I have not made any requests related to SightWatcher since the review, on-wiki or off-wiki.Almost nothing has changed since the review, except for sporadic periods of intense disruption from troll socks of a community-banned user. That user is wholly unrelated to WP:ARBR&I. On this page I mentioned three bits of advice or warnings SightWatcher received in May and June from SilkTork, EdJohnston and MBisanz (diffs were added at Future Perfect at Sunrise's request). In the absence of any interactions and SightWatcher's own very rare editing, almost all in project space, Hersfold's motions do not seem to address any problems of conduct that have actually occurred or have any vague likelihood of occurring in the future. Nothing has happened since the last set of motions, except for SightWatcher making this request on behalf of himself and three users whom he is not allowed to mention. The only possible consequence of the motions would be that sockpuppets like Zeromus1, who seriously disrupted the last request for an arbcom case, would go undetected. That would seem to run completely contrary to Roger Davies' reasoning above. Mathsci (talk) 18:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hersfold writes, "if Mathsci were to stop editing R&I topics, ...". Since he was site-banned and community-banned, I have identified lots of sockpuppets and ipsocks of Mikemikev. That does not appear to be "editing R&I topics". I occasionally have to comment in arbcom-related space, as here, but again that it not "editing R&I topics". In the review the finding was that my reporting at SPI was quite accurate. Mikemikev accounts for almost all the sockpuppetry in R&I. Then there is the quite separate matter of Echigo mole. His socking, trolling and wikihounding have nothing to do with R&I. A question was asked about his attempted harassment of me in the review. His ways of socking keep changing but his edits are usually easy to identify. Most recently 6 open proxy socks of his were blocked by Future Perfect at Sunrise and Reaper Eternal. I have participated here because I was mentioned by Cla698, in a negative way, when there was no need. Mathsci (talk) 19:47, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • On his user talk page and here Cla68 has indicated or "mooted" that he might be requesting a new arbcom case involving FPaS [70] as well as "evidence [which] directly touches on an item that I'm not allowed to comment on on-wiki at the moment, except on ArbCom pages like AE". Until it is clear how Cla68 intends to proceed, it seems premature to pass or discuss any motions that involve his actions and other users' reactions. Mathsci (talk) 21:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • David Fuchs, Sir Fozzie and Hersfold were inactive during the R&I review. My evidence and arbcom's findings in that review covered coordinated editing of R&I articles (to bypass topic bans) as well as coordinated editing on an RfC/U on WeijiBaikeBianji. That editing was not, as now, entirely restricted to interactions in arbcom space. If arbitrators are now proposing to modify the remedies, could they please confer with those who examined the evidence in detail, including the off-wiki evidence? Roger Davies was extremely careful and skillful in what evidence he elicited and used. As a result, very late in the day, there were findings and remedies on SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2. Despite being informed by the clerks, neither participated in the review. Consequently, following the review, some matters were left unresolved. As Roger put it, the issue of recruitment of friends is "probably closer to the realm of not-yet-entirely-proven than no-it-didn't-happen". If SightWatcher can have a fresh start under a new username, known only to arbcom, why not? Mistakes have been made and lessons learnt. Mathsci (talk) 22:07, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cla68 has just made 2 outspoken suggestions concerning Future Perfect at Sunrise[71] and me. [72] These suggestions, one involving an WP:IBAN with Captain Occam, are extraordinary. No diffs, just unsubstantiated personal attacks. Cla68 mentions "wiki-hounding by Captain Occam". There has been no wikihounding by Captain Occam. By Echigo mole, yes. But these are two quite different people. There has been socking by Ferahgo/Occam (Zeromus1), handled in private. Cla68 also mentions: "Future Perfect at Sunrise's strong personal feelings ... towards Mathsci ..." Groan. Mathsci (talk) 23:49, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have I been trolled again? Cla68 has just given examples of the "evidence" he would present in the arbcom case he has in mind.[73] The first diff is taken from Loosmark's discussion page at ACE2010. Here's what actually happened: Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2010/Candidates/Loosmark I objected to Loosmark's suitability as an arbcom candidate because of multiple previous EE sanctions. Within a few days he was blocked as a sockpuppeteer first by Avraham for a month and then indefinitely by Timotheus Canens. Yet Cla68 writes that I "objected to Loosmark's participation on wikipedia." How does "candidacy for arbcom" morph to "participation on wikipedia"? Mathsci (talk) 01:02, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The second piece of Cla68's "evidence" refers to TrevelyanL85A2's unsuccessful appeal at WP:AE against MastCell's 1 month block, where Collect repeatedly intervened to take potshots at me, using the phrase "battleground", as he had done previously at WP:AN.[74] (Collect subsequently received a log warning for disruptive conduct[75] and has for the last six months respected that warning.) Cla68 writes, "Collect objected to your behavior related to Captain Occam", but Captain Occam was not mentioned at all by anybody. This type of systemetic misrepresentation is the basis of Cla68's repeated claims of an ongoing feud with a user who has been site-banned for over a year now. It is not possible for a wikipedian to be in dispute with a site-banned user. Yet Cla68 continues suggesting that impossible scenario. Mathsci (talk) 01:36, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cla68 explained in the MfD in March on User:Cla68/threat charges that statements added to this "list" would shame those who had made them. The "threat charges" subpage was deleted as a result of the MfD and later speedy-deleted when Cla68 attempted to restore it elsewhere. He then placed it on his user page [76] and, after objections to that, on his user talk page. The list contained entries by Prioryman, Will Beback, Future Perfect at Sunrise and two entries by me, one originally added by a troll sock of a banned user. Several uninvolved participants at the MfD, in particular the proposer Bwilkins, wrote that the list, originally a joke, had become little more than a thinly disguised "shit-list". With hindsight that does seem to be the case. Related problems emerged at the same time during Cla68's unsuccessful arbcom request for amendment to have his WP:ARBCC topic ban partially lifted in March. Mathsci (talk) 02:46, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Newyorkbrad

AE or community sanctions, particularly if minor, should preferably be appealed where they were imposed, not here. Arbcom requests are a last resort and immensely time-wasting and draining (R&I fatigue syndrome).

The arbitration committee can decide on a quick "rule of thumb" for when amendments, clarifications and most importantly new cases related to WP:ARBR&I are appropriate. The original case concerned content editing in topics related to WP:ARBR&I and conduct in the first half of 2010. The review concerned content editing in topics related to WP:ARBR&I and conduct from summer 2010 to the beginning of 2012. Discussing matters unrelated to content editing is probably the main factor which has allowed arbcom pages to degenerate into what often resembles the courtroom scene in Alice in Wonderland. Any new case, such as Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence 3 (please, please, no!), should be directly related to content editing in WP:ARBR&I. Cla68's Race and intelligence 2 was completely divorced from issues of content editing in R&I topics and the same is even truer of Cla68's more recent proposal for a new case. It is without merit—another one of Cla68's bad jokes—and should be nipped in the bud.

If I had called Cla68 a "monster" created by an unnamed administrator or described him as "the Cla68 tank engine," folks like Sir Fozzie would have good reason to raise objections. I have not done so. Sir Fozzie is now just trying to recycle his first failed motion. That motion failed because of objections about micromanagement from administrators at AE, particularly Timotheus Canens. Nothing has changed except that Cla68 has been blocked for making personal attacks on me in arbcom-related space. Since voting in the election is over now, I can reveal that I privately asked Newyorkbrad and NuclearWarfare if there was a way to deal with Cla68's disruptive attacks on this page ("the Mathsci steamroller", etc). Apparently nothing could be done.

As Newyorkbrad has said, please could those supporting either motion point to any interactions with Cla68 or SightWatcher that have occurred recently outside arbcom space. The thinking behind the motions is apparently that no restriction applies within arbcom space. That is presumably why Cla68 has been allowed, even encouraged, to engage in personal attacks on this page despite his AE restriction. Their motions would not prevent comments in arbcom-related space, which is the only place they have ever happened.

If editors have been sanctioned at AE and are unhappy about their sanctions, they should appeal those sanctions at AE. It is gaming the system to play off AE administrators against arbitrators as Cla68 has done here. There is also no reason for other editors to make appeals on their behalf. SightWatcher's case is special. In matters concerning R&I, his topic ban precludes him from making appeals on behalf of other editors or suggesting sanctions on other editors. Appeals to lift indefinite topic bans at AE usually require some sign of normal editing in content space away from the topic; in normal circumstances, the same is presumably true of appeals to arbcom. Arbcom should give clear advice on future appeals by SightWatcher. I am surprised he did not consult arbcom privately, on arbcom-l, before making this request.

Trolling by Echigo mole is a red herring and seems to be under control at the moment.

Interaction bans with site-banned editors

Since a handful of arbitrators (Hersfold, David Fuchs, SirFozzie) are suggesting an interaction ban with a site-banned editor TrevelyanL85A2 and I cannot understand what they might mean by that or how it would be justified, I have raised the question with the community on WP:AN. Motions concerning interactions with site-banned editors are unprecedented. Such a motion, if it passed, would send out a mixed message, both confusing and unhelpful. It would have been simple enough just to close the request for amendment and, without a motion, declare a moratorium on future requests of this kind (except with the prior agreement of arbcom through arbcom-l). Mathsci (talk) 11:06, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cla68 is editing here on behalf of Captain Occam

The new "evidence"[77][78][79] produced by Cla68 apparently comes from an external source. Cla68 writes, "I am told" when referrring to the diff concerning Mikemikev. His source is without doubt Captain Occam, since Captain Occam made a big issue of the edit summary[80][81][82][83][84][85][86] which was rev-delled quite rapidly, through requests to Fred Bauder, LHvU and arbcom-l. Mikemikev outed himself in his seventh edit to wikipedia. I requested my edit summary be deleted because it contained a bad joke (Mikemikev had socked with a friend during a birthday celebration). Captain Occam saw that edit summary in the brief period when it was visible. He discussed it in private email with 2 ex-arbitrators (FB and CM) and possibly in the evidence he presented in private during the review (Roger Davies will correct me if I am wrong). That evidence was rejected. The only significant thing here is that Cla68 could only know about any of this through private communication with Captain Occam, which beyond a shadow of a doubt has taken place. Cla68 has even supplied the oversighted edit summary with his own commentary. (Clerks, arbcom-l and oversight have been alerted.) It's all very well that he's using Captain Occam to help him in this way, but a motion was passed prohibiting editors acting as proxies for site-banned editors. That includes Captain Occam.

Captain Occam has become active recently on wikipediocracy. From what he has written there he appears to be the perpetrator of the poison pen letter that was sent to me on 15 October, two days after being discharged from the Heart Hospital in Marylebone and almost immediately after I had parenthetically mentioned the DeviantArt sockpuppet Zeromus1 on-wiki. That letter was immediately forwarded to arbcom-l. Hersfold requested the headers and Jclemens wrote a very kind and sympathetic response. Thinking user:Stanistani was trustworthy (Zoloft on WR/WO), I later sent him a copy of the letter by wiki-email with all the personal details left in (eg my telephone number in France, the postal code of the college in Cambridge where I was a fellow). That was passed on to user:EricBarbour and then to Captain Occam, who presumably was one of those who wrote it in the first place, since he had threatened to release similar personal details ("outing") on wikipediocracy. Cla68's other vocabulary here (including his unsupported claims of an ongoing feud with Captain Occam) are other indications of off-wiki collusion with Captain Occam. Cla68 is an administrator over on wikipediocracy, so the means of contacting or being contacted by Captain Occam are in place. The diffs that Cla68 has produced could come from no other source. It was an act of great foolishness of Cla68 to act in this way.

The first diff from 2006 (!) similarly is related to the deleted article Myron Evans which survives as the stub ECE theory. It was originally supplied by Ludwigs2 during WP:ARBR&I, perhaps also indirectly coming through Captain Occam. There was no outing since the person, Myron Evans' self-identified cyber-secretary, actually signed his initials in the messages on the talk page Talk:Myron Evans. (Administrators can view the talk page and its archives.) That issue was handled by arbitrators during the 2010 arbcom case, starting with an email to Carcharoth on 17 August 2010, so Cla68 had no reasonable justification for bringing it up again here. Perhaps this was also submitted privately in Captain Occam's evidence to Roger Davies. Other claimed cases of outing involve an edit by me followed by an edit by Ferahgo in the R&I review that were "vaped" by Roger Davies. I think these were mentioned in the 26 March evidence of Ferhago/Occam that was forwarded to me by Roger Davies and later discounted. As far as outing is concerned, Occam revealed his identity first on his user page and then more publicly by linking to a letter written under his real name to The Economist which he discussed on User talk:Jimbo Wales. Ferahgo's RL name was on her user page until just before her ban. It is is still in the signatures on her uploaded images.

I think other rejected parts of Ferahgo & Occam's private submission concerned Miradre/Academica Orientalis, a user who participated in the review and in 2012 edited logged off from a series of IPs in Sweden. I was one of a large number of people who found Miradre's editing problematic. They were reported on numerous occasions at AE and on ANI. After a topic ban in R&I which almost became a community ban, AO reappeared after a long wikibreak to to insert undue content on evolutionary psychology into every conceivable article on wikipedia, in particular high profile articles like archaeology and anthropology. I was one of many to see the problem there. Professional anthropologists, like Slrubenstein and Maunus, could not have any meaningful dialogue with AO and were often driven to their wit's ends by AO's circular arguments. AO participated in the R&I review: many of their assertions there, in chorus with the troll sock Alessandra Napolitano, were contradicted by Roger Davies. AO's editing continued unabated until they started their current wikibreak in July 2012, following a community imposed topic ban. What relevance does Miradre/AO have to this request for amendment, apart from it being an idée fixe of Captain Occam? It was presumably part of the rejected evidence he and his girlfriend submitted privately during the R&I review. What in fact happened in the meantime? Exasperated by AO's editing, Maunus made a report at WP:ANI where, after a long discussion involving a large number of different editors, Academica Orientalis was topic banned by the community from all articles related to nature and nurture for 6 months starting in July.[87] That community topic ban contradicts completely what Cla68 has written and tried to suggest.

So apparently what Cla68 has reproduced on this page are Captain Occam's private notes in the DeviantArt campaign to "remove Mathsci from the equation". The diffs have all been shown to arbcom before, some in private. All they indicate here is that Cla68 has been caught "red-handed". Undoubtedly Captain Occam saw an opportunity too good to be missed and Cla68 happily acquiesced. It was a foolish idea to use this request for amendment as a springboard to relaunch Captain Occam's threadbare and tiresome campaign. Mathsci (talk) 11:04, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Captain Occam's offer to supply "evidence"

Captain Occam wrote this on wikipediocracy on 11 December:[88]

Well, looks like this situation's back at ArbCom again. I wonder if this time they're actually going to do something, instead of just closing their eyes and hoping the problem will go away.

There's something I asked in the other Mathsci thread, that I'd appreciate getting an answer to. As EricBarbour knows, I'm fairly knowledgeable about the history of R&I and Mathsci related disputes. Would it be of any value to the people here if I were to post some of the evidence I have about this as it relates to people other than Echigo Mole, or the other editors involved in the current request? The current discussion at ArbCom seems to be only looking at what's happened in the last couple months, and at the battle between Mathsci and Echigo Mole, but to someone who's familiar with the history of this situation there's a lot more that could be looked at. Just going with one example, I'm aware of four times Mathsci has outed other editors and had his posts suppressed by oversight, but only one of the four was directed at a banned user.

If something like this is better handled via PM, let me know and I won't talk about it in public anymore. But I'd rather not PM Cla68 out of the blue, when I don't even know whether he's interested in discussing this with me.

EDIT: I guess this is best taken care of via PM.

No further comment is necessary. Mathsci (talk) 09:06, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

SPI and wikihounding

Hersfold writes that his motion is to discourage SPI reports. My SPI reports, encouraged by checkusers like Deskana, almost all concern trolling by Echigo mole and happen when he trolls. Most recently Echigo mole made edits connected with the following advanced mathematical articles created or substantially edited by me:

As Coroner's jury (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), Echigo mole inserted incorrect mathematical information in two places, left trolling comments on talk pages and then on WikiProject Mathematics. Deskana encouraged me to make a report at WP:SPI. He ran a checkuser, discovering several other possible socks, and Coroner's jury was blocked. These are the day-to-day sockpuppetry issues which I encounter. They have nothing to do with WP:ARBR&I, Cla68, SightWatcher or the AE-banned user TrevelyanL85A2. They are not dealt with in any way by Hersfold's motions, which create the precedent of an interaction ban with an indefinitely blocked user and micromanaging WP:AE. Mathsci (talk) 16:50, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Allowing things to play out endlessly in arbcom-space

Please could arbitrators shut down this discussion? The request for amendment has been refused and if necessary advice could be given placing a moratorium on requests of this kind in the near future. I have not made any such request recently. The FIVE failed requests that have been made were by:

  • Keystone Crow (June)
  • TrevelyanL85A2 (July)
  • The Devil's Advocate (July)
  • Cla68 (October)
  • SightWatcher (December)

Each time except the first, nuked on sight, I have had to respond in the relevant arbcom space. Each request has dragged on interminably when they could have been shut down immediately. The minority motions failed in November. Now the same minority, none of whom participated in the review, are trying to modify the remedies of that review and incorporate their failed November motion. As Newyorkbrad has commented, none of them have pointed to any explicit problematic behaviour that would justify their remedies. From Newyorkbrad's comments here, no arbitrators have yet figured out a sensible way to halt the cycle of requests. Wikipedians here have suggested quite sensibly a moratorium. Simply telling people to shut up and stop talking about stuff that has nothing whatsoever to do with editing of articles in the R&I topic area. That would put an end to this exasperating series of untenable requests, which at the moment shows no sign of ending. Arbitrators can make it end by declaring a moratorium.

There is no problematic editing in R&I at the moment, so no need for any case. Sockpuppet issues are easily dealt with, either directly [89] or at WP:SPI.[90] Both motions involve TrevelyanL85A2 who, as two arbitrators have pointed out, is unlikely ever to be allowed to return to editing on wikipedia. That is one indication of how poorly the motions reflect anything that has happened on wikipedia or is likely to happen. As Newyorkbrad has written elsewhere on wikipedia, a whole group of (cyber-)friends all over the US are probably now splitting their sides with laughter at the way they have trolled portions of arbcom. Mathsci (talk) 17:07, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Request

Could Cla68 please give straightforward replies to Roger Davies' two questions within the next few hours? Otherwise please could this request for amendment be archived promptly without further action? Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 21:54, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Beyond My Ken

Mathsci is, once again, being played here, and it would be better if his reaction to being played wasn't quite so predictable, since it likely gives his harassers satisfaction when he reacts as he does. Nevertheless, he is, as usual, not the one at fault here, and I continue to believe that sanctioning him -- however superficially "fair" it may seem -- would be a gross injustice. However, something clearly needs to be done, so I would urge that Elen's position -- which is basically Silk Torx's position minus a sanction against Mathsci -- be seriously considered. If the people harassing Mathsci on Arb pages are forced to stop, Mathsci will have nothing to react to, and there will be peace on earth all around. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:00, 7 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Collect

My name was mentioned above as " where Collect repeatedly intervened to use the phrase "battleground"." which is quite unfortunately a pure fabrication. I made one single post where I used the word precisely twice at [91]. The word "repeatedly" in common English usually means "multiple times" and once !- multiple times no matter who is doing the counting. An editor then asserted " Collect on the other hand is just making assinine trolling edits here " and the like, which I rather think does show a problem. Again - I am only posting here because of an egregious attack on me made above, whose clear falsity is readily determinable by anyone actually reading Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive118#TrevelyanL85A2 And for those who do not read the posts - my suggestion there was that trouting was sufficient. Collect (talk) 01:05, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@all: That other editor has altered and refactored his commentas above, and included a "disruptive editing" comment about me to boot. I assert that when an editor who has been mentioned on any noticeboard comments in direct reaction to such comments, that accusing that editor of "dsruptive editing" is absurd ab initio. I further suggest that such editor has an inexplicable interest in my fairly innocuous comments placed in reaction to my name being introduced into conversations on topics in which I have zero interest. My prior comment was in response to the original content of the prior post here, and when such posts get altered, it is proper for me to point that fact out. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:19, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ideas by involving-himself-again NE Ent

  • The restriction on MathSci's on-wiki filing of enforcement requests imposed at the AE closing is a good idea and will help.
  • The committee needs to assert the proper hierarchy here; you guys were the ones elected (and if we community types don't like it, we have only ourselves to blame). AE should exist to assist you, not agitate things by attacking the committee and its clerks. To that end:
    • Pass a motion making it clear AC pages are under the scope of ArbCom and its clerks and AE may not restrict editors from editing the AC pages.
    • Unfortunately, the criticism isn't entirely unwarranted; specifically this "request" is insane -- it's four requests glommed together. Ideally ArbCom clerks would be more active and responsive. (e.g. Be nice if someone would answer the phone). This case should have been split into four and three summarily dismissed as not involving the OP.
  • All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players: As this seems to have devolved into a pointless scuffle between Mathsci and Cla68, if ya'll can't quickly agree to do something, then quickly agree to do nothing -- declining the case removes the stage. Cla68 is ibanned from commenting about MathSci elsewhere, and MathSci is banned from initiating new actions. Problem solved. NE Ent 02:17, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shoutouts

@RegentsPark Hopefully no one. That's the whole point. An ignored troll becomes a bored troll and bothers somebody else. NE Ent 01:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by ErrantX

The core of this dispute that appears to remain is that Mathsci is unable to detach himself from the original, and new, criticisers. Mutual interaction bans are important for two reasons; first to stop the sort of nonsense we have been seeing and second to make absolutely clear to Mathsci that his behaviour is problematic too. One overriding impression I have gained from recent comments by him is that he has "won" this dispute - and as a result he appears to be gaming the system, where possible, to bring topic and interaction bans against others. He has continued disputes with at least some of these individuals off-wiki, which demonstrates a reluctance to drop the matter (after previous warnings r.e. battleground conduct).

As an totally uninvolved admin it was depressing to wander down this rabbit hole. My impression is that the original abitration findings failed to impress themselves on Mathsci and as such created this unfortunate situation. I really do think the committee needs to pass the mutual interaction bans to help wind down this matter. Failing that I am collecting evidence to request a full case some time in the new year where the committee will be able to review the whole sequence of events involving Arbitration Enforcement. --Errant (chat!) 13:51, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My presumption r.e. the outing (which is very serious) by Mathsci has been addressed by the committee vis. strong words with Mathsci. I'm not sure I agree with that approach (we are hardly so lenient to most other editors showing such horrendous lapses of judgement or homophobia) but affirmation that *some* action was taken would be useful. --Errant (chat!) 10:42, 15 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by RegentsPark

I largely agree with Beyond My Ken above. Mathsci is not at fault here and sanctioning him would be unfair, and to some extent counter productive for the encyclopedia. It is easy to ask Mathsci to not 'feed the trolls', but the reality is that these socks are driven by an agenda and are unlikely to get bored and simply go away. And if we sanction Mathsci, then who's going to watch the trolls? --regentspark (comment) 16:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Aprock

Agreeing largely with Johnuniq, Professor marginalia, Beyond My Ken, and RegentsPark. ArbCom is being played like a fiddle by proxies of banned users harassing Mathsci. That we have repeated disruptions related to editors in the topic area, but which don't relate to actual articles in the topic area only points to extensive gaming. aprock (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

Sorry, I've been busy with other matters and haven't followed the discussion the last couple days. I'm wondering if ArbCom should just open a case to examine the issues. In particular, I'm concerned with Future Perfect Sunrise's actions as admin. His block of Cla68 was obviously bad, and his premature closing of an RfE is questionable at best. I had completely forgotten about his big "FU" outburst at ArbCom until someone brought it up. To be honest, I'm not comfortable with Future Perfect working in AE. AE needs admins to make sound, rational decisions, not ones who inflame situations. AE covers multiple topic areas, so this issue more important than just R&I.
I'm less concerned with MathSci's WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct. Perhaps they can tone it down a bit, but I get the feeling that this isn't going to end until they're removed from the situation.
Like I said, I haven't been following the discussion the last couple of days. I'm not sure what I missed, and I don't think I can catch up. Good luck, everyone. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:31, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by TheRedPenOfDoom

The continued allowance of bureaucratic Wikilawyering to harass someone who has been incredibly diligent in helping to apply and enforce the decisions of the ArbCom is really sad. The fact that there is any support for holding Mathsci responsible for the disruption caused by trolls and those attempting to evade ArbCom sanctions and harass him for his efforts is even sadder. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:45, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator comments

  • Awaiting statements. Note that the relevant case link is Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Review. Note also that TrevelyanL85A2 is blocked indefinitely, so I don't think we need to consider the request as to him. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:55, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cla68, you've linked to a post by TCanens - I don't follow, whose reaction in that post are you calling childish? Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seeing that Mathsci has raised this yet again at enforcement as a result of this case request (and the resulting admin frustration with Mathsci as a result) makes me think that we missed an opportunity to head off more issues by making the interaction ban mutual last time in the motion that was proposed. I'm neutral, towards leaning oppose to modify the other issues here. SirFozzie (talk) 05:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've noted the unilateral block action taken by Future Perfect At Sunrise in the AE request based on this thread.. I think that this action will certainly be looked at (either in this request, or in the request for a full fledged case that is currently being mooted by Cla68). I would say FPaS's actions may not be strictly against consensus but solely on the basis that only a few folks had spoken, but I do note that FPaS's actions were unilateral and not in tune with those uninvolved administrators who had already commented on the AE request. SirFozzie (talk) 09:01, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, folks. It seems that *none* of you is interested in editing in the area of R&I. It is also obvious to everyone that these continued requests for sanctions or variations in sanctions is doing absolutely nothing to improve the encyclopedia, and is becoming increasingly disruptive. Please bear in mind that the Arbitration Committee's mandate is to address disruption on Wikipedia, not providing due process or "fairness" to any individual editor(s). I'm thinking that we extend all topic and interaction bans in this area to indefinite, with the opportunity to appeal in six months, and that Mathsci be included in topic/interaction ban. Much as I understand that Mathsci is being trolled here, at this point his reactions to the trolling have become more disruptive to the encyclopedia than the trolling itself, and he clearly needs a break from this area. And Future Perfect at Sunrise, please lift your block on Cla68; I don't want to have to hear an entire case because you're being inflexible on a block that is clearly not supported by the consensus of admins on AE. Risker (talk) 13:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I sort of have to echo RIsker; what we have is a small-ish group of editors, none of whom seem to want to edit the R&I topic, and all of whom need to be kept away from each other. And at this point, that includes Mathsci; running to AE when we're already here was pretty much the definition of not helpful. I understand ou are getting trolled by a banned user, but every time this shows up I'm struck by how much battlefield conduct there is, and how much less of it there would be if the various parties would just act as if they had no need to comment on or to each other. Courcelles 16:42, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline: I don't see much merit in this request; Sightwatcher's Wikipedia activities now appear exclusively directed to protesting his ban.
    On the broader issues, it's probably not just Mathsci who's being trolled here.  Roger Davies talk 21:00, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Games are being played here, and it is time this was stopped. I would support extending topic/interaction bans to Mathsci, and also adding a provision that nobody involved in these bans can appeal or raise the issue on Wikipedia, not on AE or through these ArbCom pages. All communications related to these bans, including notifications about infringements, would need to come direct to ArbCom, and to ArbCom only, by email. These public requests simply inflame matters. SilkTork ✔Tea time 00:43, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think the Racepacket case has a model of interaction ban that could be useful here -- very broad, and pretty much a total cease and desist globally. Courcelles 05:06, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • First, comments on the initial request. SightWatcher, if you don't intend to edit R&I articles, I see no reason why you would need the topic ban lifted. You are not required to comment on any discussion related to R&I; while your name may be mentioned, you should be perfectly capable of ignoring them should you not wish to be involved. As to the rest of your request, you have no grounds from which to request the removal of other's sanctions; even if you did, the grounds on which you're requesting this are somewhat shaky. It seems as though the better approach would be to, as several other arbs have suggested, make the interaction bans mutual and in so doing prevent anyone involved from causing any problems in the area whatsoever, because they can't talk to one another. Would anyone care to post some motions to that effect? Hersfold (t/a/c) 01:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • decline' per all of the above really. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:04, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's a couple issues at play here; if Cla follows through, a case regarding FPaS is one of them that isn't really at issue regarding the initial request. As pointed out by Hers, I don't see how someone who isn't editing R&I articles is affected by a ban from them, or how they could be roped into the surrounding drama willingly therein; SightWatcher, I'd be happy for clarification on that point. I'm thinking Silk's idea might have merit to lessening the drama on-wiki, although given how invested the participants in I'm not sure that wouldn't just migrate the same issues into another sphere for them to blow back to Wiki with less noise but the same smell. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 04:33, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline this request. While there are wider issues with this topic area, I don't think we need to open a case to examine them at the moment. PhilKnight (talk) 04:59, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline request and would consider both a motion that none of the four named can request an alteration/lifting of the sanction for the next year, and a working practice to allow the clerks to remove requests made on behalf of a third party in this manner. I am very reluctant to consider anything that looks like a sanction for Mathsci, but would strongly recommend he avoids reporting any of this group onwiki at AE, as all it is doing is painting a target on his back. Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Motions

Motion 1: Mutual interaction bans

1) In an effort to prevent further disruption of the Race & Intelligence topic area, all interaction bans implemented as part of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Race and intelligence/Review are hereby amended to be mutual. Specifically, editors who actively contribute in the Race & Intelligence topic area are indefinitely prohibited from participating in any discussion about the conduct of SightWatcher (talk · contribs) and/or TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs), except to participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions, as necessary and within reason, when and only if their own conduct has been mentioned. Violations of this restriction may be enforced by block as outlined in this section, however violators should be given sufficient warning prior to enforcement.

For the purposes of this motion, there are 12 voting arbitrators, not counting 2 who are inactive and 1 who has abstained, so 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Support
  1. I think the crux here is if there's any reason for the involved parties to be communicating, period. From what I've seen it usually is only a prelude to grievances on all sides, and so a mutual ban seems a good option to try and prevent this occurrence in the future. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:31, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. SirFozzie (talk) 07:14, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Little has changed since we previously rejected this idea except that another request for a clarification or amendment was filed and has been declined. There is no evidence that outside these arbitration pages themselves, Mathsci has been commenting, problematically or otherwise, on the users named. Thus, while I can understand the thinking behind this motion, I don't see it as helpful or necessary. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. While I think in general interaction bans should be mutual, we've only just voted on this. My term on the committee ends in a few days, and new arbs wil be joining shortly. In this context, I'd prefer to leave the decision to the new committee. PhilKnight (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. For lack of a finding essentially that would warrant a motion. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:03, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  4. This one is a little over-reaching, as I mention in the comments below. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 15:28, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Per NYB and Casliber,  Roger Davies talk 16:18, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  6. This one doesn't follow from the evidence as being helpful. Courcelles 17:48, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
  1. I think we need a full case to look carefully into all the issues here. We have a problem which is not being resolved. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:44, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrator Comments
Due to the broad nature of the interaction bans as passed in the review, this is the literal interpretation of "make the bans mutual" - however it may be a bit of overkill, and could catch some editors not involved in this mess completely unawares, hence that bit at the end about "sufficient warning". However, it would probably allay SightWatcher's concern - which I still don't really understand - that he could be sanctioned for something he's not doing. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 16:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
TrevelyanL85A2 is blocked indefinitely and won't be coming back anytime soon, so I don't follow why this motion would be needed as to him. SightWatcher, as Roger Davies has pointed out, hardly edits any more either; is there an example of a time when Mathsci commented about him, outside the arbitration pages themselves? Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:17, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Motion 2: Mathsci interaction ban

2) Mathsci (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from participating in any discussion about the conduct of SightWatcher (talk · contribs). Cla68 (talk · contribs), and/or TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs), except to participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions, as necessary and within reason, when and only if their own conduct has been mentioned. Violations of this restriction may be enforced by block as outlined in this section.

For the purposes of this motion, there are 11 voting arbitrators, not counting 2 who are inactive and 2 who have abstained, so 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.
Support
  1. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 19:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. With Change SirFozzie (talk) 07:11, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    While it may not address all issues (I'd strongly advice Mathsci to back off of the sockpuppetry stuff; if you stop feeding the trolls, eventually they'll go away), this should help to reduce some of the drama in the area. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 15:28, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Though I do not think TrevelyanL85A2 should be included. Courcelles 17:49, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose
  1. Same comments as on motion 1. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:57, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Given my term on the committee ends in a few days, and new arbs wil be joining shortly, I'd prefer to leave this decision to the new committee. PhilKnight (talk) 23:38, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  3. This doesn't tackle the underlying key issues.  Roger Davies talk 16:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I am deeply concerned about this motion and take this opportunity to provide detailed reasons for my opposition to it.
    • First, this motion does not flow from the original request, which makes its use procedurally questionable.
    • Second, the use of motions, per policy, are limited to matters which are "substantially undisputed", which is scarcely the case here. Arbitrators are not only unable to agree precisely what the root problem is but also who, if anyone, is responsible for creating the problem. We cannot craft a solution without consensus as to the problem.
    • Third, a similar motion failed a few weeks ago. Nothing has happened between then and now to justify overturning our October decision. There is no evidence that justifies the imposition of an interaction ban. Those already supporting should seriously consider whether it is right to endorse double jeopardy.
    • Fourth, during the currency of this amendment, WP:AE swiftly and efficiently put measures in place that will in all likelihood reduce ongoing problems, rendering this motion redundant.
    • Fifth, because of the grossly inappropriate latitude given to parties, this amendment request has as predicted become a vehicle for mudslinging, coatracking and personal attacks.
    • Sixth, I am dismayed that we are providing a platform to interaction-banned editors who are closely associated with site-banned editors. What's more, they are seemingly advancing identical arguments to those made by the site-banned people. These arguments have already been rejected on numerous occasions both by the committee and by the AE admins.
    In the light of the foregoing, this motion should be rejected and this amendment closed immediately.  Roger Davies talk 07:15, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Per NYB - also there would appear to be no process supporting arbcom making such a ruling without some mechanism which examined the evidence. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:14, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain
  1. I think we need a full case to look carefully into all the issues here. We have a problem which is not being resolved, and motions are perhaps not the appropriate way of gathering evidence and finding a solution - especially when the Committee is divided. If the community are concerned enough about the trolling of Mathsci, and about the impact the fall out from that is having, someone will no doubt put forward a case request in the new year. It may well be that those of us who are involved in arbitration are getting a distorted view of this, and we are seeing it as more disruptive than it is; it is up to the community to let us know how disruptive the matter actually is. SilkTork ✔Tea time 09:58, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  2. I'm now thinking a case may be necessary as well. This does seem to be extending quite a good bit beyond what these motions could handle, and it's turning into a muddled mess. However, such a request may be better left until after new year's so we can have some fresher eyes looking at it. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 18:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrator Comments
This is the sort of "mutual" I think most people were thinking of; where Mathsci can't discuss those two. Note that this can pass alongside motion 1; the way motion 1 is worded, if Mathsci were to stop editing R&I topics, he would technically no longer be under the interaction ban if motion 2 were not in force as well. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 16:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Motion needs to add Cla68, I think we can drop the indef blocked user in its place, though, any objection to making the change? SirFozzie (talk) 20:20, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, TrevelyanL85A2 is pretty much never coming back, so passing any motion involving them is a waste of time. Courcelles 21:17, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's not much of a waste when we're passing a motion anyway, and not including him makes it appear as though we're singling out SightWatcher for some reason. SirFozzie, do you mean Cla68 should not comment on SW/Trevelyan, or that Mathsci also shouldn't comment on Cla68? Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 21:38, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That Mathsci also shouldn't comment on Cla68. SirFozzie (talk) 08:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on motions

I'm also wondering if it would be worthwhile to add an admonishment to "don't feed the trolls," but not sure. I don't believe it is appropriate to add a moratorium on appeals of these or related restrictions; it should be clear enough anyway that we're not willing to consider any for some time, particularly not from these grounds. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 16:46, 10 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think there is pretty well universal agreement at this point that Mathsci is inadvertently rewarding the banned users who have been harassing him, or perhaps others who are trollishly imitating the banned users, and that by this point he should have heeded the advice he has received from multiple parties not to react so predictably. It would clearly be better if Mathsci were to back away from dealing with them, except when essential (such as when there is trolling on a page Mathsci was already on, as opposed to his seeking it out elsewhere), and if someone else would take on the task for awhile. However, I remain reluctant to enforce this in the form of any kind of a motion, which would lead to its own set of arguments and rules-lawyering and which I know would be terribly demoralizing for Mathsci. Can't someone think of another way for everyone out of this situation, which has become repetitious and tedious for everyone, and a giant diversion from everyone's editing, whether about race and intelligence or anything else. This is one of those odd situations where, if I had to explain to a non-Wikipedian what issues come before the Arbitration Committee, I wouldn't even know how to begin explaining it. In my experience, when an on-wiki problem has become that abstruse, it means we have gotten too caught up in internal affairs and diverted from the mission of Wikipedia. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:23, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"too caught up in internal affairs and diverted from the mission of Wikipedia." Agree. And, I suppose, that's where ArbCom comes in. What we have, though, is a situation where people are broadly in agreement that there is a problem, but are sadly reluctant to do anything about it. While the Committee is in disharmony with itself, with other users, and with AE admins over if we should do anything and what we should do, the situation does not get better and encourages more ArbCom and ANI postings. I agree with the implication of " Can't someone think of another way for everyone out of this situation" that what we need is ideas and discussion, and the discussion should take place here, not on the ArbCom list, so that those who may be impacted by our decision, such as the participants and the ANI and AE admins, are given the opportunity to participate. SilkTork ✔Tea time 10:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To Cla68: my comment regarding Mathsci's demoralization referred primarily to the fact that he has repeatedly been harassed by banned users and/or their imitators, and continues to be criticized (sometimes more justifiably than others) for his choices in how to respond to them—choices that he shouldn't be in the position of having to make in the first place. This is a pretty much separate question from how to handle the interaction bans. I understand that all the good-faith editors involved in this request have probably had their fill of the issues raised and would presumably rather be doing something else with their wikitime. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:00, 12 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

@Cla68: please clarify the following points for me:

  1. Can you please explain why, given your interaction ban, you have made numerous comments about Mathsci both here and on the talk page that go far beyond the core issues of this amendment?
  2. Can you please state whether you have or have not collaborated with banned users in preparing your comments for this page?

Thank you,  Roger Davies talk 07:51, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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