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Use this section to request clarification or amendment of a closed Arbitration Committee case or decision.

  • Requests for clarification are used to ask for further guidance or clarification about an existing completed Arbitration Committee case or decision.
  • Requests for amendment are used to ask for an amendment or extension of existing sanctions (for instance, because the sanctions are ineffective, contain a loophole, or no longer cover a sufficiently wide topic); or appeal for the removal of sanctions (including bans).

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Arbitration Committee proceedings

Currently, there are no requests for arbitration.

[edit]
Open cases
Case name Links Evidence due Prop. Dec. due
Venezuelan politics (t) (ev / t) (ws / t) (pd / t) 20 Apr 2024 04 May 2024
[edit]
Recently closed cases (Past cases)
Case name Closed
Conflict of interest management 13 Apr 2024
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Request name Motions  Case Posted
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (1) none (orig. case) 2 December 2015
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (2) none (orig. case) 31 December 2015
Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (3) none (orig. case) 12 January 2016
Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms none (orig. case) 20 January 2016
Clarification request: Editor conduct in e-cigs articles none none 21 January 2016

No arbitrator motions are currently open.

Requests for clarification and amendment

Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (1)

Initiated by Zero0000 at 01:16, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Zero0000

I'm writing concerning the General Prohibition "All anonymous IP editors and accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited from editing any page that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict."

Unfortunately many articles are seeing a lot of edits from IPs and others failing to meet this requirement (many of which are probably unaware of it) followed by reverts by others. Semi-protection would help a lot. My question is: since semi-protection will have no effect on editors who are entitled to edit at all, can semi-protection be applied by involved administrators?

Of course automated enforcement of the prohibition would be the best solution.

Statement by Mz7

I don't think the committee should make any blanket endorsement of involved administrator action. I can envision disputes over which articles fall under the general prohibition, and things can turn ugly if there is an WP:INVOLVED case. Obviously, the reasonability rule still applies—if an involved admin protects a page that any reasonable administrator would also protect, then there shouldn't be any issues (see third paragraph of WP:INVOLVED). But this is a very case-by-case thing, and if there is even a slight possibility of contentiousness (and in this topic area, this might always be the case...), always WP:RFPP. Mz7 (talk) 06:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to create some form of hidden maintenance category that includes all the pages under the restriction, and craft a bot or an edit filter that disallows or automatically reverts and warns users fall under the restrictions? If ARCA is not the right venue for discussing this, we should probably have a community discussion. Mz7 (talk) 19:05, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mdann52: According to WP:CASCADE, cascading semi-protection is currently not available to administrators, as it would effectively allow non-administrators to semi-protect pages. Even if it were possible, by my understanding of cascade, you would have to transclude every page you want to semi-protect onto one page, which would be rather cumbersome. Mz7 (talk) 20:57, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rich Farmbrough (PIA3)

It was fairly clear that there would be trouble making this fly. The difference between a 500/30 protection on one article, and the same on a whole topic is one of kind not quantity.

While it is technically feasible to find a solution, it is pretty undesirable to effectively topic-ban 7 billion people - especially given the breadth with which these topic bans are interpreted. It is equivalent to banning all under 60s from parkland, becasue some youth drop litter. (More topical analogies might also spring to mind.)

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 12:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Kingsindian

I meant to open an WP:ARCA request for this, but was too lazy and forgot.

  • There is no way to consistently apply the General Prohibitions remedy to the entire topic area, and nobody has even tried so far. It is even unclear as to what list of pages one is supposed to apply this to.
  • Semi-protection will not take care of the 30/500 requirement, and is trivial to defeat by a moderately determined sockpuppet.
  • IP and non 30/500 edits are often benign and useful. See this diff updating the HDI status for State of Palestine. Many others can be given.

I suggest the following, which is explicitly allowed by the remedy. This prohibition may be enforced by reverts, page protections, blocks, the use of Pending Changes, and appropriate edit filters. Let the emphasis of the enforcement be on reverts rather than semi-protection, edit filters or blocks. Use semi-protection sparingly and temporarily, in direct response to disruption. Zero0000's proposal about involved admins applying semi-protection (ideally temporarily) seems good to me. The emphasis on blocks makes the most sense, is most consistent and least harmful. It is trivial to undo any bad edits by IPs, inexperienced editors etc. In my experience, just mentioning the magic word WP:ARBPIA3 is enough to "win" any content dispute (the recent flap involving Huldra is an exception rather than the rule; she didn't say the magic word). Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 07:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am disappointed, but not surprised that my common sense and consistent proposal isn't attracting any interest. It has been months since the remedy was passed. The sky hasn't fallen by relying on reverts so far. Nobody has a clue about how to implement the remedy in a consistent way using something more drastic like lots of semiprotection or edit filters. For instance, a ton of articles come under ARBPIA which don't have the template on their talk pages, so template based edit filters wouldn't work. Perhaps the committee should stop chasing chimeras. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 01:17, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mdann52

If we are going to do this, it may make sense to create a page (eg WP:Palestine-Israel articles 3), place that under cascading semi-protection, then allow editors to add articles to it in this topic area as needed. I'd note we do also have Special:AbuseFilter/698, although this will not work effectively on larger scale applications - there just aren't the resources available for it to run! Mdann52 (talk) 22:01, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mz7: ah, my bad - I'm aware you can set it up in the site config, but I see why you wouldn't want to. Thanks for correcting me on the other point too. Personally, I don't believe now there is anyway we can centrally enforce this reliably in that case. Mdann52 (talk) 10:43, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Kirill Lokshin and Doug Weller: While an edit filter is possible, it would require every page to be manually loaded in, and with limited resources to run the filter, it's unlikely to run well enough for this purpose. Mdann52 (talk) 11:00, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Question from Harry Mitchell

Without comment on the substantive issue, could an edit filter not check for a specific category or a template on the talk page? Or perhaps the existence of a specific editnotice, since those can only be created by administrators and a handful of others? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:01, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MusikAnimal

Indeed, this is basically a repeat of what I've written below... we already have a filter that disallows unqualified users to edit a explicit set of articles, which an edit filter manager can add to easily. However there has been long discussion ([1][2][3][4][5]) of a template/filter-based solution. You would add {{pp-30-500}} to any page and an edit filter would apply the 30/500 editing restriction to that page. An additional filter ensures only admins can add/remove it. See {{User:MusikAnimal/pp-30-500}}. Users would be able to request an article be put under 30/500 at WP:RFPP. So in effect we have a new form of protection until we can get WMF to create what we need. The filters need to make this work are ready to implemented, but I haven't done so yet as I also felt broader input was needed — MusikAnimal talk 01:49, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mdann52: I am confident the two filters needed to make a template-based solution won't have a noticeable effect on performance. We have numerous other filters that are less restrictive and with much more complex regular expressions. With Special:AbuseFilter/698 we are already halfway there. This sounds expensive, but performance is greatly improved by restricting the filter to the article/talk space, to users with < 500 edits, and then checking for the presence of the pp-30-500 template. We could do one better and require admins add it to the very top of the article, so the regex won't need to scan the whole page — MusikAnimal talk 02:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {Other editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3 (1): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles 3 (1): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I thought we had asked the WMF about automated enforcement mechanisms? DGG ( talk ) 22:42, 2 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are two questions here:
    1. Can involved administrators semi-protect pages in this topic area?
      • I do not think this topic area should be treated any differently than any other with regards to WP:INVOLVED, so no (except as per Mz7). Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    2. Can the restrictions be enforced automatically?
      • This is not a matter for ArbCom as far as I am concerned. If it is possible (I don't know) then as long as all relevant policies and guidelines are followed then it may be used subject to community consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 16:36, 8 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • If it gets the thumbs up from BAG, one could use an admin bot to semi-protect all of the pages in the topic area. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 03:05, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concerning the clarification suggested by Thryduulf in this section, I agree that involved admins should not get involved in any aspect of enforcement, including this. I would like to see a way of enforcing numerical limits that did not rely on individual actions;any way that works is OK with me. DGG ( talk ) 01:35, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have no issues with an administrator semi-protecting a page that falls within these boundaries. GorillaWarfare (talk) 22:35, 22 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Recommend semiprotecting all articles as the ruling effectively does this anyway. Yes some articles will be 'gamed' by accounts but that can be policed much more easily of all articles semiprotected. Admin actions should be done by uninvolved admins though. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:53, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Liberal use of semiprotection on pages that unregistered editors are not permitted to edit because of an ArbCom ruling seems logical. --kelapstick(bainuu) 09:59, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Semiprotection can be superseded by the 500/30 solution as discussed below. --kelapstick(bainuu) 20:02, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I mentioned below, an automated, edit filter-based mechanism of enforcement is the best option here. Given that semi-protection does not actually enforce the specific restriction in question, I don't see it as an appropriate first resort. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 21:45, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Doug Weller and Mdann52: MusikAnimal mentions a dynamic, template-based edit filter implementation in his statement below. If I understand what's being proposed correctly, there would be no need to pre-define a list of articles, and consequently no performance issue with running the filter, even for a large article set. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 01:08, 4 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • If an edit filter will work, I support that as a solution. Semi-protection isn't sufficient. Doug Weller talk 13:03, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly as Kirill has mentioned. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 13:40, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @DeltaQuad and Kirill Lokshin:, User:Mdann52 points out the flaw here, which had struck me also but I assumed I didn't understand how it would work. If Mdann52 is correct, we need to think again. Doug Weller talk 11:18, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be that MusikAnimal has answered that adequately. If he is wrong, and it does not work efficiently enough, only then we will need to reconsider. DGG ( talk ) 19:27, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (2)

Initiated by When Other Legends Are Forgotten at 04:29, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by When Other Legends Are Forgotten

Does an article need to be tagged with the {{ARBPIA}} template on its associated Talk page for it to be considered subject to the case restrictions (30/500)? I am referring to articles which clearly relate to the conflict (e.g, they contain text such as "Palestinians exiled in 1948 are denied their right of return.", and as such , it would be hard to argue that they could not "be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict".

A further clarification is required with regards to IPs ability to edit talk pages of articles subject to the 30/500 restriction, as it seems that some administrators are of the opinion that they are allowed to edit such pages (see [7])

@MusikAnimal: - I am not opposed to enforcing the restriction via a template, in fact, I would welcome such a measure. But that really does not address the issue I am asking clarification for, nor does your suggestion that only admins be allowed to add the template seem sensible to me - there is no such requirement to add the {{ARBPIA}] template to such articles today - any editor can do so, at their discretion. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands of articles subject to the restriction, and many of them are not tagged. Are we to wait until an admin sees fit to add the template to articles such as Jibril Agreement before IPs can be reasonably prevented (via reverts ) from editing them in contravention of the restriction?

Statement by MusikAnimal

  • I don't think the 30/500 restriction should be left to personal opinion. It may sometimes be that the subject itself is not directly associated to Arab-Israeli conflict, rather limited to a particular section, or even a few lines of text. At any rate I definitely don't think it's fair to unqualified users to give no indication that they shouldn't be editing.
    Currently there is an edit filter that disallows edits from users who do not meet the 30/500 qualification. When this was set up I was given an explicit set of articles to target, that has been added to since then. I believe the editing restriction should be exclusively enforced by these means. It seems silly to allow any given editor to enforce it manually based on their own interpretation (not to say When Other Legends Are Forgotten's opinion is wrong).
    There has been talk of introducing a new page protection system powered by a template (documentation to come) and two separate edit filters. Lengthy discussion can be found here and here. If we proceed with this route, it will be clear to editors the page is protected, as it will have a padlock icon. The decision to impose the editing restriction will be left to admins at their discretion, and users could request this protection at WP:RFPP (have to talk to Cyberpower678 about the bot, but one step at a time). Any admin can add the enforcing template to a page and the edit filter will then protect that page under the 30/500 restriction. An additional edit filter will ensure only admins can add and remove the padlock template. I believe this new system will alleviate confusion on what articles are under the editing restriction, as the process will be very formal. Having authored the template and offering to author the new filters, I am actually ready to move forward with this approach pending consensus to do so. Pinging SpacemanSpiff and NeilN (maybe this isn't the best place to discuss)
    Hopefully we can adopt the new system soon. Until then, I believe the single edit filter we have now is the best course. If there are any outstanding articles that fall under the editing restriction but are not currently enforced, please let edit filter managers know via the filter noticeboard.
  • @When Other Legends Are Forgotten: (pings don't actually work here since there's no timestamp =P): I don't think getting admin attention will be that much of an issue, as you'll be able to request protection at WP:RFPP just as you do any type of protection (we can even add it to Twinkle). E.g. anyone can add {{pp-protected}} to an article, but it won't actually be protected until an admin comes along and does it. Similarly the same is true for the 30/500 restriction. I realize this is a bit different because with semi it's at admin discretion whether or not it should be protected, whereas if you created a new page that's unambiguously about the Arab-Israeli conflict, no one is going to argue it qualifies for the 500/30 arbitration remedy -- and by all means, revert as necessary in that case if the protection is not yet in place. You might as well request an admin to add the padlock template, otherwise it's purely up to the page watchers to enforce the restriction, and only those page watchers who know the restriction even exists. Admin intervention also ensures we don't get bogus claims that a page is eligible for 30/500 (again, not referring to you). E.g. one could add it to the talk page and start reverting away, until someone comes by and stops them.
    Another idea is to make sure all pages with the 30/500 template are also semi'd (as no anons meet 30/500). That way we can utilize some technical magic to make the {{ARBPIA}} template add a category if the corresponding subject page is not semi'd. This would give us a list of pages that probably also need to have the 500/30 enforcing template added to them. Hell, we could even have a bot find all pages with {{ARBPIA}} on the talk page and no {{pp-30-500}} template on the subject page. I don't want to get too carried away with technical matters, and further backlog my list of to-dos, but the template approach to enforcing the 500/30 restriction is at the top of that list -- and I really think it is the best solution, which means we will require admin intervention to qualify an article for 30/500 but in a way that's more formal and conducive to a stable editing environment — MusikAnimal talk 06:57, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Zero0000: If by "tag" you mean the new {{pp-30-500}} which automatically enforces the editing restriction, the addition of it will absolutely have to be left to admins (they can be involved, assuming there's no question it applies to that article). This is a powerful editing restriction, much moreso than semi, pending-changes, or even PC2. We can not let just anyone add it, we need admins to verify it is truly needed on that article or else it's usage is subject to abuse. Again, getting admin attention is as simple as making an RFPP request. These are processed quickly.
    Now, if an article is clearly subject to the arbitration remedy, anyone can of course enforce the 30/500 restriction manually, but they should at least add {{ARBPIA}} to the talk page so people are aware this is a thing, and also request 30-500 protection assuming they are aware it exists. There might also be articles where only a portion of it is subject to 30/500 restriction. In such a case we obviously wouldn't protect it with {{pp-30-500}}, and enforement would have to be left to page watchers.
    Again mind you there is an edit filter already doing this job, just doesn't go off of a template admins can add, which is the better solution as it won't require edit filter managers to update which articles are protected. This edit filter was put in place as a result of this ArbCom case, and it's usage was challenged and upheld here and here. The filter-enforced disallowing of edits is favourable over letting editors do the job manually, as it presents a friendly edit notice telling the user why they can't edit, as opposed to bitey page watchers reverting with the summary "you can't edit here". All in all, if we are to keep the 30/500 editing restriction, I see no reason why we shouldn't do in a way consistent with other page protections, especially given this one is the more powerful of protections.
  • Regarding talk pages: I'm with Zero, Kelapstick and Drmies in that there should be no automatic disallowing of users not meeting 30/500 from editing talk pages. This is the only venue they have to contribute. As such protection should be done no different than as we would with any other page – only protect once repeated disruption has been observed, as a preventive measure. We should start with semi, and if disruption continues, admins will be able to add {{pp-30-500}} to enforce the 30/500 editing restriction.
    I also agree with Xaosflux that edit notices (and the {{ARBPIA}} on the talk page) should be required. The issue is unqualified editors still see the Edit button, and may spend some time making sizable contributions before edit filters disallows the edit, or someone reverts them. It's only fair for them to be given prior notice — MusikAnimal talk 21:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Kirill Lokshin and Opabinia regalis: This template/filter based solution is ready to go, I just wanted to make sure there was consensus to implement it. This is a whole new form of protection, in line with any other level of protection. With it's usage comes responsibility, and a strict protocol might be needed. I think it should only be used when a page is unambiguously qualifies for 30/500 protection, in that the subject itself falls under the restriction – not just a section of the article or a paragraph therein. I also don't think it should be used on talk pages, and that clearly is subject to debate. Note that I can implement it to only work on article pages. What do you think? — MusikAnimal talk 00:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Zero0000

I do not think that a tag should be required. Experience with the ARBPIA sanctions over several years shows that the few disputes over which articles are included are fairly easy for the admins at AE to decide. And once they have decided, the status of that article is settled from then on.

In case a tag is decided, it would be a very bad idea to require an uninvolved admin to add it. The outcome of such a rule in practice would that the sanctions would only ever be active in a small fraction of the articles in which they are required. I propose the opposite: any editor satisfying the 30/500 condition can add a tag; any uninvolved administrator can rule that the tag is not appropriate for that article. (But I still think that no tags at all would be better.) Zerotalk 07:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding talk pages, previous restrictions in the ARBPIA series were not applied to talk pages and I think it would be bad policy to start now. Talk pages should be open to all editors in good standing. Editors who cannot edit an article themselves should still be able to go onto the talk page and make suggestions for article improvement. If necessary, the wording of ARBPIA3 should be adjusted to make this clearer. Zerotalk 23:59, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Guerillero:, yes, the literal reading of "any page" includes talk pages, project pages, even user pages (eg my talk page is clearly related to the i-p conflict; are IPs now forbidden from writing there?). However I looked in vain for any discussion or even mention of this issue on the ARBPIA3 pages and seriously wonder if the arbitrators who voted for the proposal noticed that it said "page" rather than "article". If an IP notices a typo, where can be it legally reported? Zerotalk 07:32, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Sean.hoyland

While it's clear that ARBCOM explicitly allow for the GP to be enforced in any way that is currently possible including manual reverts, When Other Legends Are Forgotten seems to be under the impression that the restrictions can be enforced by sockpuppets of topic banned/blocked users, such as himself, very probably a sock of NoCal100, during the often extended periods Wikipedia's slow and deeply flawed system of protection against sockpuppetry allows the sock to remain active. Perhaps ARBCOM could make it clear that sockpuppets of blocked users are never allowed to enforce the restrictions (or indeed do anything at all in ARBPIA) and When Other Legends Are Forgotten could accept and abide by that clear rule so that we don't have the absurd and counterproductive situation of a person who is not allowed to edit in ARBPIA (or anywhere) telling people that they are not allowed to edit in ARBPIA. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:27, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by xaosflux

Personally I abhor that a new "class" of editor has been created by decree of ArbCom. That being said, as it has been decided to ban all new editors from editing certain articles - I think it needs to be abundantly clear to the editors that they are under such a topic ban and why. I think at a minimum edit notices should be required on any page that is considered in scope of this ban. While the decision only says that this ban "may" be enforced, I would never enforce it for any good faith edit - however the sanction appears to support allowing anyone else to enforce it even for good faith editing. — xaosflux Talk 16:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3 (2): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles 3 (2): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • No, but articles that fall inside of the 30/500 GP should be tagged. We explicitly allow for the GP to be enforced in any way that is currently possible including manual reverts --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 06:19, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with Guerillero. Having said that, I think MusikAnimal is correct in that an automatic, edit filter-based system would be a far better enforcement mechanism than having individual editors perform manual reverts, and would not object to amending the case to require its use once it's operational. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 21:21, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @MusikAnimal: I would support trying it out on the basis you've suggested (application based only on article subjects and only to articles). Let's test it out for a few months and see how well it works and whether we need to adjust those criteria. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 00:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • All articles covered by the 30/500 rule should be tagged, however from a practical standpoint I know that not all of them are. Not being tagged does not inherently mean that the article does not fall under the restriction. As far as the wording of the GP, it restricts editing on any page, which based on my interpretation would include talk pages. Having said that, common sense should prevail. For example, if an IP makes a good faith edit request on the talk page, the request should be reviewed, rather than just blanket reverted, because it's permitted. --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:21, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • If this is ready to implement, we should implement it per Kirill's suggestion, for articles only (not talk pages). --kelapstick(bainuu) 20:00, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, and yes. No, they don't need to be tagged; yes, I see no reason to deny IPs from editing the talk pages (in other words, I'm going with Kelapstick's common sense, rather than his earlier reference to the Letter Of The Law). Drmies (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also no and yes, in that I wouldn't add the edit filter to talk pages. GF requests should be considered, that's common sense, but I'm not sure how much use of talk pages those that can't actually edit the articles should be allowed. Doug Weller talk 21:48, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • Doug, I think the risk of disruption on those talk page is so much lower that we can accept that. If the privilege gets abused we can block, and I suppose we can always revisit it. Drmies (talk) 20:28, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sure Drmies, we don't need to do anything right now about talk pages. We can handle any problems that might arise. Doug Weller talk 15:38, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • In brief, I agree with Kelapstick; articles subject to the restriction should be tagged, but common sense says talk pages should be unrestricted unless problems occur. On the template/filter system, I'm glad to see that people have been working on developing a workable technical solution for this, which is much superior to "manual" enforcement. I hesitate to have arbcom start mandating the use of specific, purpose-built technical means to restrict editing, but given the level of disruption in this topic area, would be willing to try Kirill's suggested amendment once the system is up and running. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:44, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pages should be tagged (both with an editnotice and a notice on the talk page) and technical enforcement seems optimal (to the extent of Kirill's comments above). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:23, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also agree that pages should be tagged (And I think that when the more complicated filter is adopted, the padlock is not sufficient tagging--though people will not be able to edit, they need to know why); and I agree that this is not meant to apply to talk pages. If we ever need to do that, we can, but so far it does not seem necessary. DGG ( talk ) 19:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Palestine-Israel articles 3 (3)

Initiated by Sir Joseph at 14:32, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Palestine-Israel articles 3 arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Sir Joseph

I put in an AE against someone but........... but I did have a question for clarification. The most recent decision of the ARBPIA specified that any editor may revert an IP editor or < 500 poster without regard for the content of the post.

1)If the IP is adding correct information, and another editor leaves it in, does it then still get to be reverted, and if it does, does it get to be reverted hours later? For example, an IP editor adds some content, I, or someone else looks at it and realizes it to be a good edit so it's left in. Is it still considered revertable or is it now part of the article? Does it make sense that it can be reverted 5 hours later, even if the article was edited by another editor in the meanwhile?

2)If the IP is adding/removing information and the non-IP is just reverting without looking since IP-IP-IP says we can, what can a non-IP editor do to not run into 1RR rules when he wants to keep that information in?

I understand that someone might not want to get involved, but there are issues when you revert blindly without looking at the content. I've seen it several times already and most recently yesterday/today which is what made me post this clarification request. There certainly has to be a time limit on the IP reversion, or at the very least once another editor has edited the page after the IP editor, then that IP editor's edits should not be considered revertible.

@Serialjoepsycho, so you're OK with someone reverting an IP edit's content indefinitely? At a certain point, the edit becomes part of the article and should no longer become an "IP edit subject to unlimited revert." If another editor edited the page and hours passed by, then that edit should not be allowed to be blindly reverted. You say it's not broke, but I disagree. When you blindly revert content from an encyclopedia without looking at content, that obviously is damaging to the encyclopedia. Sir Joseph (talk) 16:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@SJP, it first says "ALL anonymous IP edits and then registered 500/30. Of course what is not an anonymous IP? Does that then open it up to a known IP editor who doesn't want to register for whatever reason? That's another headache. Sir Joseph (talk) 20:13, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Serialjoepsycho

This is a very simple matter. WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is (though not called) a topic ban. WP:BANREVERT already covers it. If it's not broke don't fix it. It's not broke.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 16:16, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Do I have a problem with someone reverting an IP edit's content indefinitely? Absolutely. But then that's not actually what we are talking about. We are talking about someone reverting a topic banned editor, that is IP editors and all other editors with under 500 edits who are topic banned from editing ARBPIA articles. Anyone who is not topic banned is free to reinsert this material. Now this person may also be reverted, but we have talk pages. They can go to those talk pages and give a coherent justification for those changes. If they fail to get a consensus they can open an RFC or some other form of dispute resolution and seek a consensus. There is nothing new with WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 other than how these editors get released from the topic ban. Reverting banned users is not new. It's certainly not a broken system because you couldn't settle a content dispute at AE. That is actually intended.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 17:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Kirill Lokshin:, I question the actual clarity. Reading it myself I took it to apply to IP editors under 500 edits and registered editors under 500 edits. If this is intended to entirely block all IP editors it might be apt to change the language. Probably something to the effect of All anonymous IP editors or accounts with less than 500 edits and 30 days tenure are prohibited.... Specifically changing the conjunction and to or.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 19:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved TransporterMan

If the Committee is taking the position, which appears that it may be, that BANREVERT is not applicable in this situation the Committee would be well-advised to be careful not to create or inadvertently or intentionally imply any obligation to restore the reverted material which could cause either the reverting editor, regular maintainers, or other editors to be subject to criticism or sanctions if they fail to do it. That's just another opening for the kind of drama which this restriction and exception to BANREVERT is intended to avoid. (If words such as "should be restored" are used, it should be made clear that "should" in that case means, "it would be a good thing for the encyclopedia if they were restored, but no one is required to do so.") Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:20, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Palestine-Israel articles 3 (3): Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Palestine-Israel articles 3 (3): Arbitrator views and discussion

  • WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is quite clear: any IP edit to the affected pages may be reverted on sight, regardless of how much time has elapsed or whether there have been subsequent edits. If another editor wishes to re-instate the same content, they may do so using their own account, subject to the various other restrictions in place (such as the general 1RR)—but this must be done with an explicit new edit, and not by merely choosing not to revert the original one.

    (The extra work involved here is one of the reasons why I think we need to use an edit filter approach that disallows the original edits in the first place, rather than forcing other editors to revert them by hand.) Kirill Lokshin (talk) 18:30, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, in the case of a valid edit by an IP, the edit can (probably should) be reverted, and reinstated by a permitted editor, who then takes ownership of the addition. I was thinking that a null edit could be completed where the edit was accepted by a +500/30 editor, however that would just get too complicated. As Kirill states, in this case, not taking action cannot be seen as an acceptance, it is would be too difficult to track. --kelapstick(bainuu) 22:27, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've no issue with a null edit being used as long as it explicitly defines the content the IP has added (such as a space added either side). However as Kelapstick says it could (and probably will get complicated) so reverting and re-adding (with a link to the +500/30 IP or account edit) would seem like the best idea. I agree that technical enforcement would be beneficial. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:08, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms

Initiated by Jytdog at 00:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Jytdog

My user page has had stuff on it about GMOs for a long time. Two sections: User:Jytdog#GMO_stuff and User:Jytdog#Self-initiated_COI_Investigation.

Should I remove one or both of those sections about GMOs from my user page?

I am concerned on the one hand that removing either would be violating the ban since I am editing content about GMOs in Wikipedia; on the other hand I am concerned someone will say that the stuff even being there is a violation and that would be drama.

My judgement would be to remove the first and keep the second, but whatever you say I will do.

Sorry for the bother and also if this inappropriate - I just don't know what to do. Thanks.

Callanecc thanks, I will not touch it, so as not to come close to violating the TBAN. Jytdog (talk) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
hmmmm with the clarification. i want to be in the spirit of the TBAN so I will remove the 1st section. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I find TFD's reactions to me at the Bernie Sanders article to be pretty blatant bad faith and totally surprising. His note below is in response to my message to him here where I wrote: "TFD, you have written several things, and are behaving in a way, that violates AGF. Things like this and this are completely out of line and are getting in the way of dealing with content in the Sanders article. Please stop doing that and deal with the actual content proposals. I don't even know what you mean about "discrediting Sanders"."
Please do look at those 2 diffs of his comments. Please note that TFD presents no diffs below where I mention the topic of my ban nor even that sector of the economy. He will not bring any, because he cannot, because I have not.
The relevant section of the Sanders Talk page is here: Talk:Bernie_Sanders#competitiveness. I don't know if the article touches on the topic on my TBAN; nothing I have written in Talk nor in the content nor any sources i have used mention the topic of my TBAN. This is baseless as far as I can see. Jytdog (talk) 21:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • TFD and AlbinoFerret are pushing forward with this. Again, I didn't edit anything about GMOs on his page.
I could see a clear point here and would agree it was a violation, had I edited something about his food policies or commented on them. I didn't and haven't. I could see a weak point if I had added some denigrating content about him. Content about a position he has held strongly for 30 years (namely that the free trade agreements we have signed since NAFTA have hurt american workers) is not denigrating. Not to me. I don't know why TFD feels Sanders' trade policy discredits him and I still don't understand his point. That is his deal. Not mine.
The arguments being made about this, are so weak that they demean the ones making them, and this forum. I understood that Arbcom was a more controlled environment where this kind of weak poison was not allowed to fester. Jytdog (talk) 08:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Four Deuces

I do not wish to comment on Jytdog's request but have another question for clarification. Does the topic ban apply to articles about Bernie Sanders?

Sanders is a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto[8] which, as a GMO producer, is one of the articles mentioned in the GMO case. Sanders is the only politician mentioned in March Against Monsanto, another article mentioned in the case. The new trade agreement which Sanders opposes, TPP, prohibits GMO labelling.[9]

Jytdog has recently begun editing this article, for example here and [10]. In the latter edit he added, "He has opposed free trade agreements...."[11] He does not mention that Sanders says it is not a free trade agreement and provides a link to the free trade article. He has not edited articles for any other presidential candidates.

This seems to me to be an example of continuing to edit a subject as closely related to GMO as possible, without overtly crossing the line.

TFD (talk) 21:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that the enwiki database shows Jytdog made 93 edits to "March Against Monsanto,"[12] so I assume he is aware of its contents.

While it has been deleted, Jytdog posted, "My comments have been purely focused on Sanders' stances on trade and competitiveness generally and not on any single sector of the economy. (fwiw as he is doing so well I became curious about his positions on the economy and when I read our article on him, I found it to say little to nothing about anything other than economic inequality."[13] The discussion thread started by Jytdog at the Sanders article begins, "I have been wondering what Sanders has to do say about promoting the competitiveness of the American economy and i have found nothing anywhere (not in Wiki nor without)."[14] It is an odd posting from an experienced editor. Normally one would do a little research first and made or recommend the addition of material. The first editor to reply saw it as soapboxing.[15]

By "discrediting Sanders" I was referring to my earlier reply to Jytdog, "we should not link to free trade, because it implies they are free trade in the way it is normally understood." In the first source you added (PBS), TPP was not referred to as a free trade agreement.[16] Nor was it in the second (Punditfact).[17] And in the source already in the article, written by Sanders, he says, "This is not "free trade.""[18] And I pointed out in the talk page, "I note btw that Sanders says these are not free trade agreements, so saying he has voted against all free trade agreements is injecting your personal interpretation."

TFD (talk) 23:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Kelapstick:, I agree with AlbinoFerret about the ban "including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics." Sanders introduced the amendment[19] to allow state requirement of GMO labeling. An article in the pro-GMO Genetic Literacy Project (GLP) says, "an example of a politician who still needs to overcome the knee-jerk reflex to be against food biotechnology is Sen. Bernie Sanders. He is chosen here as an example, because his presidential campaign makes him the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs, and because he takes strong positions in favor of science on all issues apart from agricultural biotechnology."[20] The GLP is financed by the Searle Freedom Trust,[21] that supports a number of U.S. conservative thinktanks and organizations that oppose climate change science, state funded health care, etc. The site also says Bernie Sanders (and Hillary Clinton, although here opposition was more recent) oppose the TPP and then says GMO opponents are mistaken in their view that the treaty would prevent GMO labeling.[22] TFD (talk) 04:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Jytdog:, it is not that Sanders' trade policy discredits him, but saying he opposes free trade when he has not said that does. It is synthesis: Sanders says he opposes the TPP etc., another source says they are free trade agreements, therefore Sanders opposes free trade agreements. And the restriction on editing articles "about persons involved in [GMO]" would seem to include "the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs." The reasoning is that discrediting anti-GMO advocates discredits anti-GMO advocacy.

These agreements are btw related to GMO, since they allow the export of U.S. GMO grains, and may protect them against GMO labelling, which the GMO industry opposes. The U.S. Grains Council for example says that tariffs on U.S. corn exports will be eliminated. 9[23] 0% of U.S. corn in GMO.

TFD (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by AlbinoFerret

--kelapstick, but isnt the Locus of the dispute tied to the broadly construed part of the ban? Section 4.2.1 Locus of the dispute says "The dispute centers on pages about genetically modified organisms (GMOs), agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics...." AlbinoFerret 23:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Genetically modified organisms: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Genetically modified organisms: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • As far as I'm concerned:
  • Leaving it there as is isn't a TBAN violation - as it was there before your topic ban was imposed.
  • I guess removing it is technically a TBAN violation, but seriously, who cares - given the spirit of the TBAN is to get people to walk away, removing it is really following the 'spirit' of the ban just not the letter (and I strongly doubt anyone would have a problem with you removing things from your user page).
  • Editing/changing it is a TBAN violation since it's not following the letter or the 'spirit' of the TBAN, though blocking for that would probably be a little extreme depending on circumstances.
Regarding the other part of your questions, it's up to you what you remove and what you keep, but your suggestion re removing first section and keeping second section seems reasonable to me. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Jytdog: Just noting that I added the bit in brackets in the 2nd dot point to make it clearer. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • What Callanecc said with regards to your userpage. The Four Deuces, if none of the content that Jytdog is related to the topic ban, than there is no violation. Regardless of Sanders stance on GMOs. --kelapstick(bainuu) 23:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think this the Bernie Sanders question is stretching the limits of broadly construed. There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article. He's not notable as either a pro or anti-GMO activist, he's notable as a politician. So unless the material being edited is directly related to GMOs, the topic ban does not apply. --kelapstick(bainuu) 20:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification request: Editor conduct in e-cigs articles

Initiated by Mystery Wolff at 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request


Statement by Mystery Wolff

1. Regarding the Arbcom outcome. It states: 

Enforcement of restrictions: 0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.

Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.

2. Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?

3. For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?

4. Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?

5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.

Thank you for your Clarifications in advance. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Editor conduct in e-cigs articles: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Editor conduct in e-cigs articles: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.
    • No, the section you link to only deals with the enforcement of sanctions imposed by ArbCom (for instance, editor A gets indefinitely topic banned by ArbCom, he violates his restriction and is reported to AE, assuming it's his first violation the admins there can only block him for up to one month). Those provisions do not apply to admins imposing discretionary sanctions.
  • Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?
    • Basically, any editor is free to choose whatever dispute resolution method he thinks will be best suited to solve a dispute, provided he is acting in good faith.
  • For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?
    • Only the admin who imposed the sanction being appealed is considered involved, those who have expressed an opinion but did not directly impose the sanction are not considered involved.
  • Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?
    • In the first instance, you should ask the admin in question to refrain from acting on account of his involvement; if he doesn't comply, you can ask the other administrators commenting in the AE thread; if they disagree, it is up to those who hear the appeal and, finally, to ArbCom.
  • Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
    • No. Admins are free to, and ought to comment during appeals, in keeping with the spirit of WP:ADMINACCT, but the fact they choose not to is not grounds for the case to be resolved in favour of the appealing editor. Salvio Let's talk about it! 12:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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