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March 2

What word is Eeyore misremembering?

In chapter five of A. A. Milne's The House at Pooh Corner, Eeyore says that Christopher Robin "instigorates Knowledge". It's made clear that he is misremembering a term used by Christopher Robin, but what is that term? My best guesses are "instigates" and "invigorates", but both would seem very unusual.

Here is some context: "What does Christopher Robin do in the mornings? He learns. He becomes Educated. He instigorates—I think that is the word he mentioned, but I may be referring to something else—he instigorates Knowledge. In my small way I also, if I have the word right, am—am doing what he does. That, for instance, is——" Quickener (talk) 06:45, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps "investigates"? Eeyore's memory can have been befuddled by contamination with "instigates" and "invigorates", which, although presumably unfamiliar to Eeyore and unlikely to have been used by Christopher Robin, are words he may have overheard being spoken by grown-ups.  --Lambiam 11:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking up Wiktionary, some other guesses might be "instills" or "inculcates". I have a hunch that the prefix in- would indicate a meaning of Christopher Robin absorbing knowledge in some way. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 14:02, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

"Instills" doesn't make much sense, and I highly doubt Milne would have used such an obscure word as "inculcates" in a children's book. "Investigates" would have been the first thing that came to my mind as well. Clarityfiend (talk) 16:18, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

There is also the possibility that Eeyore has remembered correctly, and that it is Christopher Robin who has mistakenly malaproped a mangled portmanteau. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.127.56.230 (talk) 18:35, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Clearly a potentially useful word, and though its exact meaning is currently unclear, more frequent use would probably result in a consensus arising. We should strive to use it at every possible opportunity, and thus ensure its future encromulation. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

I propose the meaning "to instigate an invigorating investigation".  --Lambiam 11:05, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your responses, everyone! Quickener (talk) 10:58, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Another questions

1. Why does Modern English not use eth and thorn anymore, unlike Icelandic? Is there any West Germanic language that still uses them?
2. Are there any words in English where letter X is pronounced as /ks/ in start of word?
3. Are there any words in English which have affricates or /h/ in complex onsets? Would a word like /d͡ʒnɪt/ be possible?
4. Are there any languages that allow central approximants as first consonant of complex onset?
5. Are there any dialects of French that lack nasal vowels or front rounded vowels?
6. Is there any dialect of Spanish where j / soft g is a coronal sound, not guttural? Is there any variety where it is pronounced /ʒ/?
7. Why are words psychology and conjunction not pronounced as /psaɪ̯kologi/ and /konjunkʃon/? Why English does not pronounce -logy with hard G?
8. Are there any words in English which have two identical full vowels separated by consonant?

--40bus (talk) 21:14, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Question 1

Re 1: I first want to know why the Northwest Germanic languages stopped using Old Fuþark. ᚺᚹᛁ ᛟ ᚺᚹᛁ?  --Lambiam 21:54, 2 March 2024

In Anglo-Saxon runes there's a special Y rune (for writing a high front rounded vowel) that would be appropriate to your question. AnonMoos (talk) 01:33, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I remembered the Old English instrumental case form of hwa / hwæt as being hwy, but I looked it up, and hwi was apparently an alternative to hwy, so your runes are OK on that basis. I have no idea what the form of the instrumental of the interrogative pronoun would have been at the time of the earliest runic inscriptions... AnonMoos (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

40bus -- English still does occasionally use a degenerate form of "thorn": the "Y" in "Ye Olde Coffee Shoppe" or whatever. Many of the other questions are semi-pointless, or could be answered with a little basic research. AnonMoos (talk) 02:06, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Our article thorn suggests that printers imported movable type fonts from the continent which did not have the letter and decided to simplify the alphabet. I know that letters have been 'nuked' from the Cyrillic alphabet on occasion.

Question 2

2. The Greek letter ξ (xi) is, according to the article, pronounced /ksaɪ/ in American English. This apparently aligns with what the letter would have phonetically represented in both Ancient and Modern Greek, even though most (if not all?) other Greek-derived English words starting with x have it pronounced with a /z/ sound. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:21, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Quick note that I would imagine that this pronunciation of xi is an intentional learned pronunciation or something similar; Greek word-initial x becoming z is probably otherwise just a consequence of /ks/ becoming /gz/ becoming /z/. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:27, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Pronouncing the name of ξ as /saɪ/ introduces an ambiguity with ψ.  --Lambiam 23:20, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

This American was taught to pronounce xi as /zaɪ/. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:16, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

"Xavier" has been pronounced in the X-men movies with ecks - zavier.Polypipe Wrangler (talk) 05:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Question 3

Re 3: Some English speakers pronounce why as /ʍaɪ/, and (according to Voiceless labial–velar fricative) some linguists analyze /ʍ/ as an [hw] sequence, thus giving the pronunciation [hwaɪ].  --Lambiam 22:01, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Is there any dialect of Spanish where j / soft g is a coronal sound, not guttural? Is there any variety where it is pronounced /ʒ/?

As often with your questions about Spanish dialects deviating from the modern standard, the answer is Judaeo-Spanish#Latin_script --Error (talk) 12:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Question 8

Re 8: yoohoo?  --Lambiam 22:06, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Teehee! … Perhaps the imitative name of a bird? —Tamfang (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Re 8: voodoo? --T*U (talk) 08:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

March 3

Mo(i)ses

Why does the name of Moses have oi in some languages? --Tamfang (talk) 00:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Because it was Μωϋσης in ancient Greek. AnonMoos (talk) 01:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

There's a wiktionary entry here... AnonMoos (talk) 01:58, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

So why was it thus in Ancient Greek? DuncanHill (talk) 02:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

In Yiddish it's usually spelled Moishe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

In Yiddish orthography, the spelling is משה‎, which does not suggest a diphthong. Given the pronunciation, one would expect something like מאוישעה‎. I don't know of an explanation for how an /ɔɪ/ crept into what in Hebrew is pronounced /moˈʃe/ (מֹשֶׁה⁩‎), with a monophthong. It is not plausible that this derived from philological considerations of Egyptian names.  --Lambiam 11:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Yiddish equivalent to German "Oh Weh" is "Oy Vey", so couldn't it be some internal phonetic developments? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 12:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Two observations which may or may not be relevant:

1. The Ashkenazi pronunciation of Hebrew that my father grew up with (though I didn't) renders וֹ /o/ as the diphthong /aʊ/
2. Yiddish regularly has /ɔɪ/ corresponding to German /aʊ/.

I don't know enough Yiddish to be able to think of any other Yiddish words from Hebrew with a וֹ in the first syllable (there are some where it is in the plural suffix וֹת "oṯ", but they're usually reduced to /-əs/), to tell whether this is a wider phenomenon. ColinFine (talk) 13:42, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, I live and learn. Until today, I didn't even know that monophthong was a phthing.-- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 16:57, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The Yiddish accent renders the "o" vowel as "oi" in general. For example, Kadosh (holy) is rendered as Kadoish or sometimes Koidesh. 64.231.206.241 (talk) 21:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

So you're saying, Bugs, that Ancient Greek took it from Yiddish? —Tamfang (talk) 19:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The Greek version of the name is based on Hebrew, but not necessarily the Hebrew pronunciation as we know it. The Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible are much earlier than the use of vowel points in Hebrew. --Amble (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

The Septuagint, the old Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, was made in Egypt; and first-century Jewish scholars Josephus and Philo of Alexandria connected the name of Moses with the Egyptian / Coptic word for water, "mou" (μωυ) [1]. Perhaps that understanding of the meaning of the name "Moses" influenced its spelling in Greek by Greek-speaking Jews living in Egypt. --Amble (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly, the Tribe of Levites (to which Moses putatively belonged), as portrayed in the Pentateuch/Torah, alone featured Egyptian-style names, unlike the other Tribes whose names were characteristically Canaanite.

This might reflect an origin of the Israelites as an amalgamation of more than a dozen previously separate tribes (different ancient sources include between them more than twelve names), including one from a southerly, Egyptian-speaking, possibly Yahweh-worshipping region. The idea that these 12(+) tribes were descendants of the so-named twelve sons of Jacob/Israel is a typical founding myth also found elsewhere (see Twelve Tribes of Israel#Historicity).

'–Moses' is Egyptian, but incomplete, meaning "born of . . ." usually coupled with a God's name. If it ever reflected a real name, this was probably elided to prevent the embarrassment of having the main prophet of one religion being named for the god of another. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 176.24.44.161 (talk) 21:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Right on the monotheism! 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:52, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Confusing phrase in 1984

I'm having trouble understanding this phrase from 1984:

"Unquestionably Syme will be vaporized, Winston thought again. He thought it with a kind of sadness, although well knowing that Syme despised him and slightly disliked him [...]"

I thought that despising someone entailed a strong disliking for them. Am I missing something, or is this an error in the text? 150.203.2.195 (talk) 08:45, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

There is no error in the text. See this webpage, which states (correctly, I think) that the two words don't necessarily mean the same thing. To me, "despise" is about hating what someone stands for, in political or social terms, whereas "dislike" is more of a personal thing. --Viennese Waltz 09:02, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Or else Syme is just practicing doublethink. --142.112.220.50 (talk) 09:04, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Well, there is that. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

To express that I find someone's opinions repugnant, I wouldn't say that I despise them. To me, that implies that my loathing extends to the person. To avoid that, I'd say that I despise the opinions that I find offensive. Words do not have crisp definitions, so we should allow some leeway, but I for one also find Orwell's formulation, if not puzzling, at least somewhat peculiar.  --Lambiam 10:19, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm wondering if the slight dislike was Winston's feeling, not Syme's. It would make more sense that way (although the phrasing should then have been "slightly disliking"). Clarityfiend (talk) 13:14, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

To me, to despise someone means to evaluate them as worthless. This seems to me a different dimension from like-dislike. While it's unlikely that anybody would like somebody they despise, it doesn't imply that they dislike them strongly. ColinFine (talk) 13:46, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I would go further: I myself have a friend whom I slightly despise (for some of his behavior) but nevertheless somewhat like (because of his overall qualities). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.127.56.230 (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, OED gives for despise - "To look down upon; to view with contempt; to think scornfully or slightingly of" and one can certainly look down upon someone yet still like them. DuncanHill (talk) 17:50, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling to wrap my mind around that, Duncan. I might despise someone's actions or attitudes, yet still like/love them personally. Parents (who, one hopes, love their children unconditionally) deal with this situation all the time, when it comes to the wicked stuff their children get up to. But to despise them seems to exclude any notions of liking or loving them. Can you give me an example? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:56, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Not without violating Wikipedia policy. But surely there have been people in your life who you've looked down upon but still rather liked? DuncanHill (talk) 22:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

GBS gives several hits for the collocation "lovable nincompoop",^[2] one of which is from the other GBS.  --Lambiam 11:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I do, but I would say I have mixed feelings about them. And if I despised some of their actions and disliked them more generally, I probably wouldn't split hairs. The apologists here are using examples of positive/negative combinations, but both of the emotions expressed in the example are negative which is what makes it curious. I tend to believe that doublethink was the correct answer. Matt Deres (talk) 16:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

"Lovable nincompoop/idiot/lunatic/fool" is something I might well apply to someone. Without the "lovable", the noun could suggest I despise them, but the adjective puts that to rest. Maybe I'm at odds with the rest of the world here, but for me, to despise someone means I most definitely do not like them, and I would do all in my power to avoid having anything to do with them. Luckily for the world, there's nobody that fits that category, so I have nil experience of this. If I like someone, that means that I have overcome whatever negative behaviours they may have evinced (if any), and while I may not like or condone those behaviours, I still like them personally and i certainly don't despise them.-- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The meaning of words is subject to drift. An egregious example is the word egregious, which originally meant "outstanding" (in a good way!). It has retained this positive sense in Italian egregio. The word despise may also be drifting to an emotionally more exclusively negative sense. Webster's 1830 dictionary gives two distinguished senses:

DE-SPISE′, v. t.  1. To contemn ; to scorn ; to disdain ; to have the lowest opinion of.  2. To abhor. Shak.

--Lambiam 23:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

P.S. The negative sense is very strong in the related adjective despicable. If I despise someone, it means I look down on them, not because I have a higher status, not because I am better educated, but because I consider them despicable lowlifes. My scorn is in fact immensely more likely to be directed toward high-status individuals.  --Lambiam 00:15, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I think that the discussion so far has ignored the creativity of the word and phrase choices of the author, who is trying to convey the increasingly confused thought processes of Winston Smith, humiliated, tortured and abused at this point of the plot. Great authors do not write in the V/NPOV/OR style of competent Wikipedia editors. Cullen328 (talk) 10:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

In the context, the term is not part of Smith's thought but used by the omniscient narrator as part a factual statement informing the reader about Smith's state of mind while having a particular thought. To tell their readers that their character John is a terrible stutterer, great authors wouldn't write, "John was a t-t-t-terrible stut-tut-tutterer".  --Lambiam 11:05, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

March 5

Does anyone know what this charcter is?

At s:Page:Cyclopaedia, Chambers - Volume 1.djvu/351, in the second column in the original text, in the second paragraph of the section on the equal sign (the one starting with This Character was firſt, the sixth paragraph to start from the top of the page) there is a weird symbol that looks like a backwards ∝. Does anyone know if this is represented in unicode? I can't find anything, but it must have been somewhat common, since the publisher of the book would have had to have it in print (the book was published in 1728). 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

This page describes mathematical notation used by Descartes: [3]. He introduced some notations that are standard today, but the backwards "∝" for equality is one that didn't catch on. I can't find it in Unicode or in any modern usage. Here's a book with more history on Descartes' equals sign and our modern one: [4]. --Amble (talk) 23:18, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

(Edit Conflict) The relevant paragraphs state '= is the Sign of Equality' ... 'Des Cartes in lieu of it uses ∝'.

Equals sign states:

"The symbol = was not immediately popular. The symbol || was used by some and æ (or œ), from the Latin word aequalis meaning equal, was widely used into the 1700s" (History of Mathematics, University of St Andrews).

So I suppose it might be a sloppily OCR-recognized æ or œ), unless someone would be a bigger expert on Descartes. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:23, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I read the same paragraph in equals sign, and had the same thought, but OCR mistakes don't really make sense in an original text. I think I'll extract an image from it and insert it into the transcribed text for now. Thanks, 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 00:15, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Or you could do this: ∝. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Or this: ∝ ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:10, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah, hadn't thought of that, thanks. 🌺 Cremastra (talk) 13:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

When books were manually typeset using movable type, the typesetter could insert a type piece turned upside down, rotated by 180°, or rotate it by just 90°, which explains why many $\infty$ symbols in older printed books are not rotationally symmetric, like 8 : they are the figure 8 on its side. This can explain its use here if ∝ was available in type.  --Lambiam 11:16, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Florian Cajori's A History of Mathematical Notations says that Descartes "probably intended" his equality sign "to represent the first two letters in the [Latin] word aequalis" (so in effect it was meant as an ae-ligature like æ), but the symbol that was typeset was probably the sign for Taurus, rotated anticlockwise 90°.

By the way, the double horizontal line for an equals sign is usually credited to Robert Recorde.

--142.112.220.50 (talk) 18:28, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Courtesy link: A History of Mathematical Notations#External links. 2A02:C7B:210:BA00:8458:F303:FDB1:5E14 (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Amble already linked the book (and indeed the relevant passage) in the first response to this query, above. Deor (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Thomas Harriot's symbol may have been substantially different from our present symbol,^[5] more like $\top \!\!\!\!\!\bot \!\!\top \!\!\!\!\!\bot .$ More info (based on Cajori) can also be found in MacTutor's Earliest Uses of Symbols of Relation. Recorde may not have been the very first, and he used his paire of paralleles only in his 1557 book The Whetstone of Witte, in the lengthy, somewhat cumbersome form "=====". It is unclear when the use of our paire of paralleles of much shorter but of equally equalle lengthe became widespread.  --Lambiam 22:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

There's a story that during WW2 someone adapted typewriters for various Asian languages, and in Burmese he got one of the letters upside-down. When he became aware of his error, he offered to correct it but was told, never mind, it is now an accepted variant. —Tamfang (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

March 6

Japanese

Could words らあっし rāssi, もんった montta and ねてぃん netēn be possible words in Japanese which follow phonotactical rules? Can Japanese have geminated consonants after long vowels or moraic nasal or can moraic nasal appear after long vowel? --40bus (talk) 19:31, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

1. For the first one, Japanese can and sometimes does have geminated consonants after long vowels, which can be seen in example sentences that have ーっ. I would break these down into three categories:

1. Words that have a geminating っ that are lengthened for emphasis, such as ぼーっと for ぼっと and ずーっと for ずっと.
2. Emphatic onomatopoeia, such as しーっ for "shhh", and くーっ as a sigh of relief.
3. In the context of sentences, words ending with a long vowel can get the particle って added on, although I wouldn't count this as a single word per se. The Jisho sentences earlier include example such as 「ラグビーって何人でするの？」 ("how many people do you need to play rugby?") and 「トミーっていい人ですね。」 ("Tommy's a nice guy, isn't he.")

GalacticShoe (talk) 20:27, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Note that the last category's long vowel doesn't need to be transcribed as ー (which I think is probably only used for an ending long vowel if the word is loaned.) With words like sansuu (算数), you can construct example sentences that also have a long vowel preceding gemination. The first two categories have long vowels that are explicitly added in for the aforementioned purposes of emphasis and onomatopoeia, which I imagine means that only ー is ever used there. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

2. もんった montta looks very strange to me. I think it contradicts Japanese phonotactics. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 20:44, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and Jisho has no example sentences for んっ, so I imagine it indeed never occurs. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

/NQC/ is found in obaasankko ('grandma's boy/girl'), which Labrune (2012: 139) cites for being exceptional also in having /N/ accented. Nardog (talk) 00:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

3. That last one would actually be netin, ti (てぃ) having a short vowel sound analogous to that in chi (ち) but with a different initial t sound. But yes you can have a moraic nasal appear after a long vowel. Look no further than ティーン, which translates to (and sounds like) "teen." GalacticShoe (talk) 20:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I was about to post with the Japanese version of the name of the state of Maine. However, such "trimoraic syllables" seem to be disfavored in Japanese, and are not formed by means of ordinary morphological processes of adding Japanese suffixes onto Japanese stems... AnonMoos (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Personally I would read the vowel in メイン as a diphthong (me then in). If you're referring to the alternative form メーン, then I think that should count, although I agree that such cases are probably limited to loanwords. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

In Japanese, a diphthong is just as bimoraic as a long vowel, so it doesn't make any difference with respect to looking for trimoraic syllables, which I understood to be the purpose of 40bus's question. (By the way, what my message is now shown as replying to is very different from what I actually did reply to on 20:21, 6 March 2024...) AnonMoos (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The kana and romaji of the last one don't match. Please clarify which one you meant. Nardog (talk) 21:37, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I think -ei- in practice often is read as -ē-, such as in keitai. (cell phone) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 22:58, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

It should be noted that this is distinct from -ei-, since small i next to te indicates that it's a ti (note: not chi) sound. GalacticShoe (talk) 23:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the difference purely in the orthography of long vowels in native and loan words? I think the pronunciations of the syllables セー in セーラー服 and せい in せいらん are the same. Likewise for ヨー in ヨーガ and よう in ようぎ.  --Lambiam 23:53, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

ねてぃん would be netin, and netēn would be ねてーん. I don't understand what you're talking about. Nardog (talk) 00:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I mixed up てい and てぃ. As the article chōonpu states, the prolonged sound mark is usually not used in hiragana. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

March 7

Why was English more wordy the further in the past?

Less info per thousand phonemes or graphemes. I have guesses but don't know what's considered most responsible. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

What's the basis for this assertion? <-Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots-> 03:58, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

One of the reasons I have never been able to get into Jane Austen's and the Bronte sisters' novels is the excessively wordy way in which characters are made to speak. I can only assume they reflected normal practice at the time. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:21, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The context in which Jane Austen wrote is usually called "Augustan prose", but our Augustan prose article focuses almost entirely on the subject-matter of the writings, with very little on linguistic style. There are certain fixed phrases which were required by the etiquette of the day, and the nature of the snappy repartee between Elizabeth and Darcy in Pride and Prejudice means that personal criticisms were often expressed in a rather abstract form, but I don't find Austen to be excessively verbose... AnonMoos (talk) 08:55, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The verbiage of their characters may have been class-dependent.  --Lambiam 09:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The authors of the U.S. Constitution (1787) and Declaration of Independence (1776) used some very elaborate locutions to handle indelicate subjects such as (please forgive my indelicate language) slavery or the Native American Indian tribes (and their lands).

Although I'm an ardent believer in both documents, I would suggest reading and interpreting the list of specific grievances that follow the noble Preamble to the Declaration of Independence. And the Constitution's text (before the emancipating Thirteenth Amendment of 1863) almost never uses the word slave or slavery, using various wordy and indirect phrases when it does indeed touch upon the Peculiar Institution. ---- Shakescene (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Many anti-slavery advocates in the 19th century before 1865 thought it was a positive thing that the U.S. Constitution didn't use the word "slave", since to do so would have declared that slavery was a legitimate part of the system, while not using the word meant that the Constitution recognized certain necessities caused by the existence of the "institution" without endorsing it. Much of the wording of the CSA constitution was directly borrowed from the U.S. constitution, but the CSA constitution openly used the words "slave" (a number of times) and "slavery". And the U.S. consitution called Indians "Indians"... AnonMoos (talk) 07:36, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. How did it refer to native Americans? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:31, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

"Indians". Regarding slavery, the term "other persons" was used, as noted in Slavery and the United States Constitution and Three-fifths Compromise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Several euphemisms were used -- "such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit" in the clause prohibiting a ban on the transatlantic slave trade before 1808, "Person held to Service or Labour" in the clause about returning fugitive slaves, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 23:53, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

raisu in Japanese

The Guardian has an article today about karē raisu. Is raisu a common name in Japanese for rice, or only as a loanword in the context of this imported dish? Following interwiki links gets me to ja:米, and searching for that character plus "pronunciation" gets me something that sounds quite different. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:34, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

No 2 is correct (it would be bizarre for Japanese people to borrow the general word for their traditional staple food from alien civilizations where rice was much less important). AnonMoos (talk) 16:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks (sure, but I didn't know if it's a loanword or a native word that shares an etymology with "rice". I assume "rice" has eastern origins.) AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 18:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

For reference, here's the etymology for rice: wikt:rice#Etymology 1. Although by that section there are possible "eastern" origins going as far as the Austroasiatic languages, I'm pretty sure that if Japanese had inherited such a term, it wouldn't have been so phonetically similar unless by very big coincidence. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:25, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

If you replace "ja.wikipedia.org" in the URL of what you linked to with "en.wiktionary.org", then you get to https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%B1%B3 , which has lots of info on the character and its pronunciations in various languages... AnonMoos (talk) 22:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The name of the dish, written in Japanese characters, is カレーライス. The characters are katakana, which is typical for loan words. The donor language is clearly English. The article on the Japanese Wikipedia states that the dish was introduced to Japan from England during the Meiji era.  --Lambiam 19:50, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Aside from compounds, ライス alone is also commonly used to refer to a plate of rice. 米 rarely refers to cooked rice, and 飯 and 御飯, the native words for cooked rice, more commonly refer to a meal or food in general. Nardog (talk) 01:07, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia also has articles on チキンライス (chikin raisu – chicken rice) and オムライス (omu raisu – omelette rice).  --Lambiam 08:19, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

March 8

Ligier?

What does it mean here: an English Ligier in the stately porch of the Grand Signor of Constantinople? Omidinist (talk) 13:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

For context, the quote is from Richard Hakluyt. See here [6] for the relevant passage. As for the meaning of the word 'Ligier', it isn't entirely clear to me. I could guess, but it might be better to search further first. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

According to Middle English Dictionary [7], a "ligier" could be a stone layer. I'm not sure if that makes sense in context – especially as I don't know what exact meaning of "porch" is implied here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

A little searching finds Hakluyt again using the word several times here. [8] It appears to mean 'ambassador', or something similar. See this passage:

"...the worshipfull M. William Harborne was sent first Ambassadour unto Sultan Murad Can , the great Turke , with whom he continued as her Majesties Ligier almost sixe yeeres.

AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:47, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that certainly makes a lot more sense in context. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Could the "stately porch" be the Sublime Porte? And "ligier" reminds me of "liege". --Wrongfilter (talk) 14:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

From the context of the original quote, that could very well be the porch in question. And see the Merriam-Webster definition of the word 'legate': "a usually official emissary". [9] AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

We have an article on William Harborne, who was the first English Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, appointed by Queen Elizabeth I. There can be no doubt that the "stately porch" was the Sublime Porte, where newly appointed legates presented their credentials.  --Lambiam 15:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I found a book in which this passage is quoted as an example of Early Modern English, and the term is explained as follows: Ligier means “resident ambassador.”^[10]  --Lambiam 15:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all. Omidinist (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

How would the word be pronounced? Like "lidger"? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 21:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

A Google search yielded no clues, but I imagine that the final vowels would be pronounced as two syllables, like "courtier". Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

My first guess is /ˈliːʒeɪ/, assuming this was a loan from a now obsolete French word. (Ligier is not only a car company but also a French name: Guy Ligier, Pierre-Mathieu Ligier, Ligier Richier). Compare the pronunciation of atelier. However, brazier, also a French loan in the sense of a bowl for holding coal, is pronounced /ˈbɹeɪ.zjə(ɹ)/.  --Lambiam 13:42, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure about the 16th century, but "ier" loan words in English are not usually pronounced in the French way; bombardier, brigadier, financier and grenadier are examples. Alansplodge (talk) 17:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

OED lists "ligier" under "ledger". "An ordinary or resident ambassador; also, a papal nuncio. Obsolete exc. Historical in form lieger." has Hakluyt as one of its supporting quotations "William Harborne was sent first Ambassadour vnto Sultan Murad Can..with whom he continued as her Majesties Ligier almost sixe yeeres." DuncanHill (talk) 12:21, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

March 9

Questions

1. Why has Arabic not switched to Latin alphabet?
2. Why has Russian not switched to Latin alphabet?
3. Are there any words in English which have two identical checked vowels separated by consonant.

--40bus (talk) 22:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

1 and 2: Why should they? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:39, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

 4. Why has Finnish not switched to the Klingon alphabet?  --Lambiam 06:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Because of resistance from advocates of tengwar (Quenya mode). —Tamfang (talk) 00:09, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

3. Going down the list of checked vowels given in Checked and free vowels#English:

• /ɪ/: digit.
• /ɛ/: couldn't find anything here, and I learned along that renege is not pronounced with two /ɛ/s.
• /æ/: badass (although it's also a compound of two words.)
• /ɒ/: walkoff (again, a compound of two words), if you just count consonant sounds rather than letters.
• /ʊ/: couldn't find anything here.
• /ʌ/: cutup (yet again, a compound of two words.)

GalacticShoe (talk) 07:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Not a compound: hubbub (/ˈhʌbʌb/).  --Lambiam 10:21, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Counting CC^* as a consonant:

• ɛɛ compound: deckhead;
• ʊʊ compound: cookbook.

--Lambiam 10:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

how about tenet ? —Tamfang (talk) 00:07, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The second vowel is weak, /ˈtɛnət/ (or /ˈtɛnɪt/, but not /ˈtɛnɛt/).  --Lambiam 23:41, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

(2) You may be interested in Latinisation in the Soviet Union although this was mainly aimed at the Turkic and Arabic languages of the USSR. Given that nice Mr Putin's views on Western civilisation, I wouldn't hold your breath. Alansplodge (talk) 17:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Why has Arabic not switched to Latin alphabet?

It did. Maltese alphabet --Error (talk) 12:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

And the population of Malta is predominantly Christian, and the Maltese language is no longer in a diglossia relationship with Classical / Qur'anic / Modern Standard Arabic. A large number of Muslim Arabic-speakers would feel that abandoning the Arabic alphabet, and writing local dialectal Arabic separately in each individual country or region (without reference to the traditional literary standard), would be almost the same thing as renouncing Islam... AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

March 10

Old word pronouncer

Is there a tool where I can enter old proto words, which can show me how to pronounce them, like dn̥ǵʰwéh₂s, læŋɡwɪd͡ʒ, etc.? ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 08:49, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

How to pronounce Proto-Indo-European is a delicate issue, since it's a reconstructed proto-language. For example, there's little concrete information available as to how the laryngeals would have been pronounced, while the glottalic theory claims that part of the standard reconstruction of the PIE stop consonants is incorrect. See Schleicher's fable for how scholarly reconstructions of PIE have changed over time... AnonMoos (talk) 09:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Maybe not how these words were pronounced back then, but how can I hear how to pronounce words like those I have gave example of? As I don't know the various linguistic notions used. ExclusiveEditor _{Notify Me!} 19:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what "those words" means in this context. The first is a reconstructed PIE form, while the second (which I ignored in my earlier answer) is just an IPA "broad transcription" of the modern English word "language"... AnonMoos (talk) 22:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I found an IPA reader for English here. There might be other options. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:28, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

March 11

Pronunciation questions

1. Are there any words in English where letter U is pronounced as /uː/ in initial position?
2. Are there any words in English which have onsets /kn/, /gn/ in all dialects?
3. Is there any Romance language where letter Y is always pronounced as a vowel, at least in native words?
4. Why Spanish Y, as in ya and ayer is a fricative /ʝ/ rather than approximant /j/? Is there any variety (excluding Judaeo-Spanish) where it is /j/?
5. Is there any rhotic dialect in English that pronounce LETTER vowel with a schwa followed by an alveolar trill?

--40bus (talk) 17:52, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Answer to 1 -- Only in foreign loanwords / proper names (Ubuntu, Uhura, Unamuno). Answer to 2 -- NO! AnonMoos (talk) 18:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Are there any words that have onsets /kn/ or /gn/ in RP or General American?

--40bus (talk) 19:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

If wikt:gnu#English is to be believed, apparently some English speakers in the UK pronounce it with an onset /gn/. GalacticShoe (talk) 20:35, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Ditto for gneiss, gnosis, etc., but the question was for "all dialects." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.186.221 (talk) 23:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

In this case, my response was to 40bus's extra line of questioning below in response to AnonMoos (it appears their signature wasn't indented, which is why my response appears to be to their original 5 questions.) GalacticShoe (talk) 01:56, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

GalacticShoe -- It's allowed to do minor technical fixes on other people's comments, such as fixing inconsistent indentation levels... AnonMoos (talk) 19:43, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Is there any Romance language where letter Y is always pronounced as a vowel, at least in native words?

Venedic language says:

Pronunciation is exactly as in Polish.

Polish alphabet says:

Y y y or igrek /ɨ/

--Error (talk) 19:08, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Why Spanish Y, as in ya and ayer is a fricative /ʝ/ rather than approximant /j/? Is there any variety (excluding Judaeo-Spanish) where it is /j/?

es:Yeísmo says:

El yeísmo, en algunos dialectos, no se aplica a los diptongos fonéticos con /i-/, tales como los que aparecen en las palabras hielo o hierba:9​

México España Argentina

hierba [ˈje̞ɾ.β̞ä] [ˈʝ̞e̞ɾ.β̞ä] [ˈje̞ɾ.β̞ä]

hielo [ˈje̞.lo̞] [ˈʝ̞e̞.lo̞] [ˈje̞.lo̞]

Spanish phonology says:

The realization of the phoneme /ʝ/ varies greatly by dialect.[8] In Castilian Spanish, its allophones in word-initial position include the palatal approximant [j], the palatal fricative [ʝ], the palatal affricate [ɟʝ] and the palatal stop [ɟ].[8]

The reference is Quasi-Phonemic Contrasts in Spanish - Speech Prosody - University It also says:

In Argentine Spanish, the change of /ʝ/ to a fricative realized as [ʒ ~ ʃ] has resulted in clear contrast between this consonant and the glide [j]; the latter occurs as a result of spelling pronunciation in words spelled with ⟨hi⟩, such as hierba [ˈjeɾβa] 'grass' (which thus forms a minimal pair in Argentine Spanish with the doublet yerba [ˈʒeɾβa] 'maté leaves').[63]

--Error (talk) 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

March 13

Not to change the subject ...

Some people are having a conversation. One of them says, "Not to change the subject, but ..." and proceeds to veer off at a tangent only marginally, if at all, related to what they were discussing. In other words, they have done exactly what they said they wouldn't do, change the subject.

Is there a term for this locutionary device of the speaker denying what they know they're about to do? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The most common example is the phrase "not to mention X", which of course means that you're mentioning X. That's apophasis. Your example could also be considered apophasis, in a more complicated way. AnonMoos (talk) 13:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC).

Out of the same stable as I’m not being funny (but). Google couldn't find me a technical term. Alansplodge (talk) 14:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

There ought to be a category "famous first words", which could also include "I'll keep it short."  --Lambiam 09:16, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Like when Hitler gets up on a podium and starts with "Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking ...". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:36, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

"False disclaimer"? Although I'd say that your example most often occurs unintentionally, so doesn't fit your question. Mathglot (talk) 06:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Translation?

In the article V. K. Pandian, an editor keeps adding ପାଣ୍ଡୁ to the "other names" section. Google translates this as "Pandu", but I still can't tell if that's an actual "other name," a slur, a silly nickname... Does someone here know the language well enough to determine if that's an appropriate addition or if it should be removed? Joyous! Noise! 16:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The term does not occur on his page in the Oriya Wikipedia, so it is probably not notable.  --Lambiam 22:08, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you have in mind any simple example of a useful English word, being both a noun and an adjective and a verb?

I know there are loads of examples, but I'm looking for a useful one in daily life. HOTmag (talk) 18:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Set is one of the simplest ones I can think of, since it has so many meanings you can choose from. "If you want someone to choose from a definitive list of options, you must set a set set." GalacticShoe (talk) 18:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Side note, my favorite obscure noun-verb-adjective is circular, which in addition to its well-known adjectival meaning, also has a noun meaning as "an advertisement, directive or notice intended for mass circulation", and a verb meaning as "to distribute a circular to/at someone." If you give someone a round advertisement, you have circulared a circular circular. GalacticShoe (talk) 18:49, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@GalacticShoe Five main dictionaries [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] don't list that as a verb. In my version of English, the verb is "circulate". Bazza 7 (talk) 19:03, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary does give examples which show that it is distinct from circulate (e.g. "I was circulared by a company looking to expand its consumer base" wouldn't make sense if one were to replace it with "circulated"), but it might be a case where most dictionaries consider that more as if one is verbing the noun. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

@HOTmag: How about wikt:light...? CiaPan (talk) 18:59, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

The second reply above perhaps inadvertently gives one at the start: "side". I can have "a pain in my side". You could "take the side piece" of a cake. And you can "side up to" someone. It's a little like "set" but perhaps more specific as each meaning is to do with the side, so in some sense not central/not direct.--2A04:4A43:900F:F579:EDA2:B2C5:3E76:8DD7 (talk) 19:38, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't "side" in "side piece" a noun adjunct? You can't say that one piece of cake is "less side" than another, which is "very side", or that it will "become side" if you slice of the piece that now "is side", by you slicing the cake "sidely".  --Lambiam 21:30, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Possibly , but reading that (I was not familiar with it before) a noun adjunct seems more applicable to things like "chicken soup", where both chicken and soup are recognisable, distinct entities, and chicken in similar phrases ("chicken pie", "chicken sandwich") is the same thing, possibly even the same bird. But "side slice", or "side door", or "side profile", the "side" isn't something that exists separate of the thing it's modifying, and is different in each case. Also when you use "side" as a noun – "my side hurts!" – that seems likely to have come from the descriptive use, shortened e.g. from something like "the left side of my body hurts!". I.e. it's not a noun being used as an adjective, more like an adjective used as a noun. --2A04:4A43:900F:F579:EDA2:B2C5:3E76:8DD7 (talk) 22:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Funny enough, "chicken" is also a noun, verb (Wiktionary has it as a shortening of "chicken out"), and adjective. GalacticShoe (talk) 22:11, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Cognates in other Germanic languages (Danish & Norwegian side, Dutch zijde, German Seite, Swedish sida) are unambiguously nouns and not adjectives.  --Lambiam 22:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Another test is where the stress is. In noun phrases formed with an attributive adjective modifying a noun ("nice dress", "happy hour", "sloppy job"), the stress is normally on the head (the noun). In English noun–noun compounds ("ice cream", "coal mine", "beer bottle") the stress is on the modifier (the first of the two nouns).  --Lambiam 23:04, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

contact – list of contacts; contact sheet; contact my lawyer.

record – a new record; in record time; record a new song.

verb – it's a verb; verb phrase; easy to verb a noun.

Mathglot (talk) 06:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

None of those are adjectives, just noun adjuncts:

• *This sheet is contact.
• *This time is record.
• *This phrase is verb.

Nardog (talk) 06:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Questions again

1. Are there any adjectives in English that start with "vowel Y"?
2. Is there any Romance language where name of the letter Y is simply y and not "Greek I" or ye?
3. Are there any words in French with semivowel + vowel combinations /ji/, /jy/, /wu/, /wy/, /ɥu/ or /ɥy/?
4. Are there any words in Spanish with diphthongs /ji/ and /wu/? Fore example, nuucuna would be pronounced as /nwukuna/ and siipito as /sjipito/?
5. Are there any words in Finnish where primary stress is not on the first syllable?

--40bus (talk) 21:20, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

1. yclept; ypsiliform; ypsiloid; ytterbic; yttric; yttriferous; yttrious.  --Lambiam 21:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

3. bouillir.  --Lambiam 21:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

As for 2, if something wasn't added on, then the names of the letters "I" and "Y" would be homophonous... AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

In Italian they are even homoglyphs.  --Lambiam 10:54, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Isn't that rather due to orthography? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 01:03, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Small fontsize → joke.  --Lambiam 09:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

March 15

Have never vs. never have

I could/would have never done that
vs.
I could/would never have done that.

The former seems to be the favoured version in the USA, if movies and tv shows are any guide. The latter is the one preferred in Commonwealth countries (possibly excluding Canada).

Is there a particular reason for this difference, and does it have anything to do with the (always-wrongheaded) proscription against splitting the infinitive? (Not that "have done" is an infinitive per se, but it is two parts of the same verb in the same way that "to do" is.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure the two sentences have the same meaning. To me, the most natural interpretation of the first sentence assumes that the speaker actually did whatever it was, and means "It's possible (counterfactually) that I never could have done X", while the second means "It's impossible that I could have ever done X". AnonMoos (talk) 04:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure one could find all manner of nuanced meanings. But take a scenario where the speaker has been accused of something reprehensible, and their response is as above. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

The second sounds more emphatic to me too. I half expect the first to be followed by an "except" or "if only". Clarityfiend (talk) 08:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

There's also "I never could have done that." Or, maybe poetically, "Never could I have done that." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:57, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Similarly, there is "would have not been possible" vs. "would not have been possible". While the second is much more common, the first has been steadily gaining relative popularity.^[16] Selecting the "British English" or "American English" corpus makes little difference. But "has been steadily gaining" has steadily been losing popularity to "has steadily been gaining".^[17]  --Lambiam 08:58, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Interchange of /ɪks/ and /ɛks/, while pronouncing the prefix (initial) "ex" of English words.

Some IPA-oriented dictionaries, e.g. Collins dictionary, give an initial /ɪks/ for some words, e.g. "expand" and "expect", while giving an initial /ɛks/ for some other words, like "expend" and "expectorate".

If somebody who is currently speaking English, while pronouncing English words that begin with the prefix "ex" of both kinds, permanently pronounces this "ex" with the wrong vowel, whether the vowel of "set" or the vowel of "sit", can this be considered to be a Sibboleth, i.e. a sign of being a non-native English speaker, to a native English speaker's ears?

Additionally, does the answer to my question depend on whether, the speaker pronounces the initial "ex" with the wrong vowel of "set" instead of the correct vowel of "sit", or vice versa, i.e. the speaker pronounces the initial "ex" with the wrong vowel of "sit" instead of the correct vowel of "set"?

Note I'm only asking about the prefix (initial) "ex", rather than about the very phonetic distinction between "sit/set" and likewise. 147.235.223.23 (talk) 13:09, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Your question is at odds with the British English version I use:

• https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/expect which shows ɪkspekt
• https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/expend which shows ɪkspend
• https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/expect which shows ɪkspekt
• https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/expectorate which shows ɪkˈspɛktəˌreɪt

The American version seems to show the same four pronunciations with an alternative for each beginning ɛ in place of ɪ.

It's worth adding that not all English speakers have the same accent; and that English dictionaries record, not prescribe, usage of spelling and pronunciation — there is no rulebook. Bazza 7 (talk) 13:22, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I find that the pronunciation of the initial vowel gets changed by the way my tongue rises in preparation for the 'k' sound. If I say 'expand' very slowly (but without stopping the vowel sound until just before the consonant), the vowel becomes an e-i diphthong, as in 'ache'. However, if I heard someone speaking the word slowly, then I would expect the e-sound to predominate, and the i-sound on its own would sound incorrect. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 13:42, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

147.235.223.23 -- I think there's a lot more toleration of variations of prononunciation in unstressed vowels in English than in stressed vowel. But if you got it wrong as to when to pronounce "x" as [ks] and when to pronounce it as [gz], that would sound very strange. -- AnonMoos (talk) 13:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Instead of eksausting us, would you like to egzblain your last sentence by a simple eksample? Oh, sorry for forgetting the "h" in the third word. Oh, sorry for egz-janging the "p" by a "b" in the nineth word. It won't happen negzd dime, I promise. I'm pretty bad at spelling, yet I'm an egzbert in pronunciation. 147.235.223.23 (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

If you pronounced "exact" or "exaggerate" with [ks] instead of [gz], it would sound a bit strange. The [gz] pronunciation only happens intervocalically, usually immediately preceding a stressed vowel, so most of your examples don't work... AnonMoos (talk) 23:06, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

So I've failed. But about you? would like to give a few instances, just to clarify your last sentence in your previous contribution? 147.235.223.23 (talk) 14:24, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Things can vary. Such as the word "exit", which I've heard both as "ex-it" and "eggs-it". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:52, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but that's because if it were stressed as a noun (e.g. "an OBject") it would naturally have the [ks] pronunciation, while if it were stressed as a verb (e.g. "I obJECT") then it would be followed by a stressed vowel, which would favor the [gz] pronunciation. I don't think that many people today distinguishe between [ks] in the noun and [gz] in the verb, or pronounce the verb with second syllable stress, but that's how the [gz] possible pronunciation of "exit" originated... AnonMoos (talk) 02:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Do you have source for the claim that the stress in the word exit used as a verb was originally on the second syllable? The verb is derived from the noun, so I find this implausible.  --Lambiam 14:04, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

It's difficult to figure out how any [gz] could occur unless there were some circumstances when "x" was before a stressed vowel. AnonMoos (talk) 19:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Wiktionary also gives pronunciations /ˈɛɡˌzaɪl/ and /ˈɛkˌsaɪl/ for the noun (and verb) exile. Likewise, it gives both /ˈɛksədəs/ and /ˈɛɡzədəs/ for the noun (and verb) exodus.  --Lambiam 14:16, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

It's not just before /ks/ or /gz/. How do you pronounce "any"? I think I grew up saying /ɪniː/ (my mother was from the South) but at some point I switched to /ɛniː/ because it sounded more like what my peers said. When I looked up Skeeter Davis's "The End of the World" I was struck by her pronunciation like the way I knew it as a child.

I would be surprised if we didn't have an article somewhere that covers this pair, but I don't know where to find it. --Trovatore (talk) 17:36, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Trovatore -- I have "agin" for "again", but pronounce "enny", not "inny". See Phonological history of English close front vowels#Pin–pen merger... -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

March 17

mercurial breasted

It's in a book from five centuries ago titled A History of the Levant Company. What does it mean? Omidinist (talk) 07:01, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

More context, please, like the full sentence it's used in. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Sure. 'The mercurial breasted Mr. Harborne so noised the name of our island among the Turks that not an infant of the cur-tailed, skin-clipping pagans but talk of London as frequently as of their prophet's tomb at Mecca.' Omidinist (talk) 07:49, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

That passage contains a number of insults against Muslims in the space of a few words ("skin-clipping" means circumcising). I would guess that "mercurial breasted" could mean that he's changeable in his emotions (unless it's some kind of fixed phrase). AnonMoos (talk) 11:54, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Tuchman is quoting Thomas Nashe, who published this description of Harborne in his last work, Nashes Lenten Stuffe (1599). The passage is also quoted in the entry on Harborne in the Dictionary of National Biography. Other compounds with -breasted I found were foule-breasted^[18] in a sermon by Thomas Adams (1583–1652), true-breasted^[19][20] in a play by Thomas Kyd (1558–1594) and a poem by Thomas Heywood (early 1570s – 1641), and open-breasted, out-breasted, sweet-breasted, all in a 14-volume edition of the works of Francis Beaumont (1584–1616) and John Fletcher (1579–1625), where -breasted is glossed as meaning -voiced.^[21] This fits with the other uses, foule-breasted meaning "foul-voiced" in the context of the sermon, and true-breasted meaning "speaking truth". So it appears that Nashe is implying that Harborne spoke in a mercurial manner, that he was (quick)silver-tongued. The term "noised" supports the hypothesis that the attribute is meant to characterize his way of speaking.  --Lambiam 12:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

What about an association with Mercury, the god of commerce, financial gain, but also eloquence and trickery? --Wrongfilter (talk) 12:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)