Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts

An image request

Hello. I'm not proficient at uploading or documenting images, so if someone can please assist then feel free to consider Frida Kahlo turning over in her grave and waving at you. Or giving her sister the finger. The new page Memory, the Heart (as I told AB, not to be confused with The Heart, She Holler), which is already getting substantial views, could use an image of the subject painting. I know help is on the way, my new app told me so. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:08, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Renewing request because of the amount of views of Memory, the Heart. Any takers on uploading an image? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi Randi, I found it here, https://www.fridakahlo.org/memory-the-heart.jsp#prettyPhoto it's just that I need to have some approval that there is no copy right. Someone who is in charge of her estate or museum needs to write to me and I'll help uploading it. I think that's how it works. --Forever Art (talk) 09:30, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

It will certainly be in copyright, but if there is an article on the painting can be loaded to en:wp (not Commons) with a fair use exemption. Johnbod (talk) 11:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Forever Art (nice user name) and Johnbod (nice as well). There is an article, but I've never done an upload, so any help on that appreciated. The page is still obtaining over 100 hits a day, and an image would improve it. I'm surprised the site doesn't have images of all of Kahlo's paintings but their age is inside the copyright limit. Thanks again. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

• Have tried several times to upload the image retrieved here, but the "Upload Wizard" isn't giving me a working upload button. I seem to have provided all the data asked for. Can someone else please give it a try? It's a copyrighted image for use in the article Memory, the Heart, the 1937 painting by Frida Kahlo, to show readers the painting. I don't know what I'm missing in the upload process. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Retitle "Yale Student Abortion Art Controversy" as "Aliza Shvarts" (BLP of an artist)

Hello,

This question being raised simultaneously on the BLP Noticeboard, the article's talk page, and here.

I'm a researcher and art historian who's been invited to write on Aliza Shvarts's practice. I'd like to propose changing Yale student abortion art controversy to a BLP page for Aliza Shvarts. Much of this page was written and contested in 2008, during the event’s emergence onto the stage of notability. It’s now been ten years since Shvarts came to notability as a BLP1E (the title of which was highly contested on the talk page, and the page was shortly thereafter reviewed and recast as an Event) and underwent a deletion review, and seven years since a user blanked the article’s content in its entirety, and it was restored. In the decade since the scandal, scholars and critics have written about the "controversy" not as a controversy, but as a controversial artwork, part of Aliza's larger critical and artistic practice. Because of this, I believe the page should be reclassified as a BLP, in which the controversy surrounding the artwork figures as one (substantiative) section.

Thoughts? Vera Syuzhet (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Vera Syuzhet—what is the advantage to making the article about the artist instead of the artwork? Is the artist interesting? Isn't it the artwork that is thought-provoking moreso than the artist? Bus stop (talk) 19:24, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

• Please centralize discussion in the same location: Talk:Yale student abortion art controversy#Requested move 14 May 2018 czar 01:27, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Notability guidelines for art galleries

In my opinion, certainly not those of present notability guidelines, an art gallery demonstrates notability by by means of its exhibition schedule, but this exhibition schedule cannot be sourced to the art gallery because the art gallery is not independent of itself, therefore it is my opinion that reviews of art exhibitions validly contribute to the notability of art galleries. Recent AfDs have held that reviews of shows at art galleries do not contribute to notability. I believe the argument is that it is only the art that is referenced in such reviews and not the gallery. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon Lee Gallery an art gallery with many reviews of exhibitions was deleted. I don't think art galleries try to call attention to themselves. Art galleries are concerned with showcasing art. Independent sources write about the art seen at a gallery. I think that should be the number one contributor to notability for art galleries. At present, I don't think notability guidelines exist specifically for art galleries. Do others agree that such guidelines should be formulated? And shouldn't such guidelines take into consideration the reviews by sources of exhibitions? Bus stop (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

• The general notability guideline covers the entire encyclopedia (save for academics, apparently). The subject-specific notability guidelines were designed as shortcuts for frequent discussions, e.g., if X has Y qualifications, it will undoubtedly have significant coverage in multiple reliable, independent sources, etc. It's not going to bypass the endgame of requiring in-depth discussion in sources.

I don't think anyone would argue that reviews of art exhibitions somehow contribute to the gallery's notability, but the question is to what extent the coverage is of the gallery itself. I looked through the sources in the deleted Simon Lee Gallery and the only coverage past mere mentions was [1][2][3] Is the second link planted PR? because it looks like it. The third link is an interview/self-published source. It is possible to write an article that does justice to the topic with that sourcing? Now, alternatively, would we have enough sourcing for the gallerist? czar 01:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Wrong! If we're talking about commercial galleries, not museums, all a gallery does is host exhibitions, and galleries that host notable exhibitions are notable. Otherwise all there is to say is how nice the toilets are. But the artists need to be notable, and the coverage not merely local. Johnbod (talk) 03:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Galleries that host exhibitions of notable artists that are reviewed; and discussed in a multiple of sources including magazines, newspapers and online publications are notable...Modernist (talk) 10:36, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

? Good luck writing encyclopedia articles that do justice to the gallery as a topic when we don't have a preponderance of sources that cover the gallery's activities in depth. If a gallery's only sources are exhibition reviews that say little about the gallery's role, the resulting encyclopedia article will be anemic and reflect that lack of content about the gallery itself, no different from an article about a venue that says nothing about the venue. All this talk of rewriting notability guidelines to legislate a way out of not having secondary source coverage about the gallery itself, but what good would come of encyclopedia articles written this way, either for readers or for us? I see no way that an effort to except galleries from the general notability guideline—à la the sole bypass for professors—will garner wide community acceptance or end in anything but frustration for those who take up the quixotism. A better effort, I'd wager, would be to encourage more secondary source coverage about the topics you wish to see covered on Wikipedia. czar 11:55, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

czar—it is rarely the case that we have no information about an art gallery provided that gallery has an active exhibition schedule and its exhibitions are taken note of by sources, and of course that the sources are reliable. The problem here is not that the gallery is not notable but that the activity of an art gallery remains below the radar, so to speak. Reliable sources have scarce to report about these institutions because all of the work they do is behind the scenes. We generally do have some information on the gallery. Galleries are known for the kind of work they show and perhaps the artists they have "discovered". Generally owners and curators are known. Sometimes some shows receive an inordinate amount of interest and are written about in sources not only in the realm of reviews but in books as well. The problem is that at AfD this can be ignored in favor of a blind adherence to WP:INHERIT. It is strictly speaking not "inheritance" because of the gallery's instrumental role in bringing about the activity that transpires within the gallery. You might want to weigh in at Articles for deletion/Meessen De Clercq. Bus stop (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

• Ongoing commentary—A gallery is essentially an empty space that reflects the taste of its owners and operators. It provides ancillary services but these are rarely the sorts of things that are taken note of. Walls have to be painted. Lighting has to be provided. When sources review exhibitions, those sources are indirectly supporting the notability of the art gallery. That is because it was the taste of the owners and operators and the initiative of the owners and operators that set in motion the forces leading to the exhibitions that are being reviewed. Therefore a review of a show is supportive of the notability of the art gallery. Bus stop (talk) 11:56, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
• I think we ought to rewrite WP:ARTIST first, but if we are going to write a notability guideline for art galleries, I think that merely exhibiting notable artists does NOT make a gallery notable. There are plenty of galleries that work in the secondary market that sell art by eminently notable artists, but do not in any way contribute to what I'd call a critical discourse about the art they exhibit. I think that art galleries are poorly served with NCORP, because some of them are not like other businesses, and more like (free) museums. A gallery that is notable has noticeable impact (in the art world) and is, in some way, the subject of significant critical attention. For example, Betty Parsons, Ileana Sonnabend, Leo Castelli and Marian Goodman can be considered to have created a market for the artists they represent. Sometimes their efforts are reflected in museum collections. Some galleries produce exhibition catalogues that do get reviews, like for example Hauser Wirth & Schimmel, who produced Revolution in the Making, (I have a draft for an article about that exhibit here). A recent deletion discussion of a gallery at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alexander_Friedmann-Hahn concluded that reviews of exhibitions do not by themselves establish notability if there is nothing about the gallery in those reviews. It may not have helped that the majority of artists that the gallery represented were themselves not notable. (See User_talk:DGG#curators_and_gallerists for a discussion). I have in the past compared some gallery rosters to see just how many of the artists galleries represent have Wikipedia articles. Notes are here. Vexations (talk) 22:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
• So I learn from this that there is a Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Artists, split off from the main VA one in 2016. Who knew? Not me, or I suspect many here - the other one continues to get many artists. These deletion debates now seem to have few editors one recognises as working in the field. We should all watchlist this. Johnbod (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Notability guidelines for art galleries, continued

Wider community input might not be a bad idea at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meessen De Clercq. Bus stop (talk) 08:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there any reason for this page?

Is there a reason to believe that there are multiple forthcoming articles for Portrait of Madame Cézanne (disambiguation)? I am calling on the experts of this subject matter.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Well at least one anyway, yes. Johnbod (talk) 14:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• The dab was whittled down from three entries to two, so WP:2DABS applies (read: a hatnote would be sufficient if/when there is a separate article for the non-Lichtenstein painting) czar 14:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

courtesy ping creator @Wikisaurus czar 14:25, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Of course the Lichtenstein would no longer be primary if we had the other article. Probably the Barnes Foundation Cezanne would be, though I'm sure C did others - ah yes, some 18 at least. Someone should do a stub, or a group article. Johnbod (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Added Portrait of Madame Cézanne with Loosened Hair, also in Philly. Pah! Exits grumbling.... Johnbod (talk) 14:37, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, 27 frigging portraits! Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

• Marie-Hortense Fiquet, great article...Modernist (talk) 14:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Which the Lichtenstein article now actually links to ..... Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

June Women in Red focus on GLAM

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Invaluable now available through The Wikipedia Library!

Free access to Invaluable is now available through the Library Card platform. Invaluable is a database of artists and auctions with more than 5 million entries, including 500,000 artists. You can sign up for free access now! Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 17:55, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Charles Lorin

Is this person notable? Should the article be moved to mainspace? I see occasional mentions in him in various books, but not much in-depth. Calliopejen1 (talk) 06:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

"Genevan" as a nationality

User:Sapphorain, a Genevan local blown in from French WP, has a bee in his bonnet that for most of the early modern period the Republic of Geneva was independent, although tied to the Old Swiss Confederacy, part of the Holy Roman Empire. He has been going around removing "Swiss" from bios of artists like Jean-Étienne Liotard and creating categories like Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva and Category:Engravers from the Republic of Geneva under Category:People from the Republic of Geneva (1541–1815). Originally he removed these entirely from the Swiss biographical tree. ULAN and other sources just call these people "Swiss" and so should we. Whatever the technical legal situation in the 18th century, here as elsewhere we should use the equivalent modern nationalities for the main categories.

I've launched a CFD discussion to merge them back into the Swiss categories. This is potentially the thin end of a huge wedge - I think many of us know of the city-nationalists or others who go around removing "Italian" and replace it with "Venetian", but they do not remove Venetian painters from the Italian tree. Unfortunately the discussion at CFD has been ill-attended, and is not going well. Any comments at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_June_10#Category:Engravers_from_the_Republic_of_Geneva would be very welcome. Johnbod (talk) 13:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I have a feeling we're going to have this same conflict over-and-over again. Wasn't there something about 17th century Belgian artists recently? It all seems to hinge on differing views of the exact meaning of nationality is in the in Category:X by nationality subcategories. It frankly gives me the shivers to refer to as Belgian who was born before 1830 (there was no such country). But I can see that "Belgian artists" is really shorthand for "Artists who were born, or predominantly worked in, what is currently the territory of the Kingdom of Belgium". It is practical and helpful to our readers to do the categories in that way. Category:People by nationality makes it clear that we refer to regions or historical nations in addition to modern nations. To take a strict textualist approach to categorization defeats its purpose. It leads to categories that are technically correct, but mostly useless because our readers wouldn't use them, or even know where to look. For a reader, it should be possible to start at a parent category and navigate to the article about an artist from the region they're interested in, starting with what is currently a country, like Switzerland. If categorizing people as X from the Republic of Geneva prevents that, it's wrong, but I would think that Category:Swiss people > Swiss people by occupation > Swiss artists > Artists from the Republic of Geneva works just fine as long as Artists from the Republic of Geneva is a non-diffusing subcategory of Swiss artists. Vexations (talk) 15:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Generally I agree, but this is much worse, as Swiss was a valid & current term in English and the local languages all through this period. He has been removing the whole Swiss tree from his "Genevan" categories, as well as mention of "Swiss/Switzerland" from articles, and is adamant that 18th-century Genevans were not Swiss at all. In any I case I feel strongly that readers should not have to hunt through local (or chronological/style) sub-cats for professions, as they unfortunately have to do with Italian artists. As so often with category matters, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Johnbod (talk) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

His solution appears to be insert fr:Catégorie:Artiste de la République de Genève into fr:Catégorie:Artiste par nationalité and Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva into Category:Artists by nationality. If we agree to do this his way, then we we can't just do it to Republic of Geneva; we'd have to also agree to add every other other former sovereign state to every Category:X by nationality. Not just Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva, but also Category:Scientists from the Republic of Geneva (nevermind, he already did that). The thing is, I do find that categories like Category:Yugoslav footballers and Category:Rhodesian archaeologists exist. I think that's impractical. I don't know if we can get consensus to limit Category:X by nationality to countries that currently exist. Unless we do get that consensus, I can't think of a reason to oppose his move based on established practice in categorization. One reason to oppose is that it is unreasonable difficult for people to find the "correct" country if we are not also adding the subject to the current country. If I'm looking for painters from what is now Switzerland, I should not be presumed to know when which parts of what is now Switzerland were not Swiss. That's just not reasonable. The strongest objection I can can think of would be that all the sources on Liotard say he was Swiss, not Genevan. We ought to go by what the sources say, and not by what we, from personal experience or original research, have decided is WP:TRUTH. Vexations (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that's the line I am taking (EB 1911 calls Liotard just "French" btw, but what do they know!). I don't believe the current cat rules (in so far as there are any) allow people to be excluded from any current national category tree without a far better reason than there is here. Johnbod (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Guernica

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz has removed this image of Picasso's Guernica from both the Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía page (where the painting resides) and from the Madrid page, the city location. It is still in copyright, although "given as a gift to the people of Spain". The fair use rationale would be that it defines the museum as a repository of art, and is its most important painting. As to the city, or even for use on the Spain page, the work is a national treasure, and is surely the most well-known and important painting in the city and the country. I don't know how to precede to enlarge its scope of use. Can someone, if you feel this is a case worth making, assist in obtaining the fair use permission from Commons the proper accreditation here? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The file would have to be loaded at Wikipedia using {{Non-free use rationale}}. Commons doesn't allow non-free images to be loaded there.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Have edited my request. I mean the Wikipedia file linked above, which is used on other Wikipedia pages and which I'd like to ask to be used on the museum, the Madrid, and possibly the Spain page. I'm new to the loading and permission edits. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. You want someone to help write up the non-free use rationale to add to the File:PicassoGuernica.jpg page on Wikipedia. I wouldn't know how to make the case for a painting to be used on an article about a city or country per non-free use rationale. Sorry, maybe someone else can make that connection.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. Actually I'm asking how I'd make a request to include the image on the museum page, and then to try the Madrid and Spain discussion. The page I went to seems to be only for image deletions. Thanks for your quick responses above. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

• There is a discussion about Guernica's use and a NFCC violation at Talk:Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía. This is the museum where the painting is exhibited, and not including Guernica on it seems ridiculous, like removing the Mona Lisa from the Louvre page, the Sistine Chapel from the Vatican City page, or numerous other examples where an art museum can be defined by a single work. Does anyone know of a rationale for a NFCC by-pass that has been used on other museum pages? I'm asking this question to Hullaballoo as well, if they happen by here, as you seem to have an extensive knowledge of past placements of important images on Wikipedia articles. What would have to be changed in the rationale to make this proper use? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
  • @Randy Kryn:, No changes in the rationale will suffice; the use is simply incompatible with NFC policy. Consensus and practice are quite clear. I've checked the top entries, for example, on List of most visited museums and List of largest art museums; the only nonfree files included in those articles are the museum's own logos -- no images of nonfree artworks from their collections. I'm sure exceptions slip in from time to time, but they're typically removed with little or no controversy. WP:NFC#UUI #6 is clear and rarely even disputed: "An [nonfree] image [is not acceptable] to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)". The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
    • Thanks Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. It may make sense to hold a discussion to see if the definition of use of non-free images can be extended from only their own article to use in museum articles. This Guernica case may be the main argument to extend the definition, that it's non-use on the article of the museum, an Institution which it defines, shows the large hole in the policy. Coldcreation came up with that good and creative (although cold) alternative, which I hope you approve of as well. Thanks, I guess, for your good faith edits to keep other editors within the playing field. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
      • Just watched the 10th and final episode of Picasso on Genius and have realized that the way to go forward, at least I believe and hope it makes sense to others, is to have a Guernica exception for non-free use of an image on a museum page "if that museum can only be represented in an encyclopedia if its article includes the image of a specific artwork". In this case, and possibly the only case which can be argued reasonably or successfully (hence the name Guernica exception), Guernica on the Museo Reina Sofía page. How could this exception be carried forward into the policy language, and Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, would you please consider it for awhile, maybe mull it over during a meal, and possibly co-sponsor this idea. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:15, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
        • If you want to create an exception/exemption to any Wikipedia policy, then the place to go about trying to do that would typically be on the talk page or the policy or at WP:VP/P, and it might require a WP:RFC. FWIW, although there are occasionally exemptions granted to WP:NFCC as explained in WP:NFEXMP, these tend to for maintenance pages, etc. and not for specific individual articles or files. Personally, I don't see how what you're requesting will gain any traction, but you can try if you want. You can also just try starting a discussion at WP:FFD instead to see if you can establish a consensus just for this particular non-free use. Just make sure, you avoid any problems with WP:CANVASS when notifying others of the discussion; for example, #Under attack is not the way to do such a thing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
          • Thanks for the sound advice. Will answer further later. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Under attack

The visual arts are now under a massive attack by the hunters (see above) and now these: [4] and [5]...Modernist (talk) 11:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This sort of mass deletion spree - and indeed the zealous insistence on the precise terms of WP:NFCC being met at all times, everywhere - reminds me of User:Betacommand. (I don't recall if Betacommand deleted fair use rationales before nominating files for deletion, but someone else may remember.) When was the last Betacommand sockpuppet caught? 213.205.240.204 (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

• It does look like Betacommand to me; thank you for reminding me of his name; I had forgotten. Thank you for your insightful help...Modernist (talk) 23:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

• ? Many of the rationales are correct. NFCC isn't hard to meet: the non-free image needs a textual reason for being on the page, especially when free use equivalents exist. A bunch of the nominations are pulled from the glut and galleries of Color Field, History of painting, and Western painting. It isn't useful to blanket reply "keep" on these with no effect to ascertain what works best for the encyclopedia, especially given that "free use" is one of our core tenets. Look at the other replies on these discussions for a clue to their eventual closure. czar 22:39, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

• Excuse me? Color Field has no galleries - that's none....Those other 2 are important visual art articles having been targeted for years, by the way...Modernist (talk) 23:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Color Field has "glut" not "galleries", but that isn't the point. "Free use" is one of our core tenets and we don't do fair use unless warranted by a need in prose. Can't argue that those principles are being misapplied to these sets of images without first conceding the direction of the "massive attack". czar 13:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

• Every image under attack is covered by Fair Use Rationales...Modernist (talk) 13:37, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
  • As I've explained before, the Wikimedia foundation uses a stricter requirement than fair use. We want to support our content being reused, and non-free images do not support that, but there's a balance between that and visual clarity for topics. I know if you open up any history of painting book it will be flooded with examples (free and copyrighted with permission) but we simply can't replicate that under the WMF's target goal. --Masem (t) 13:51, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
  • You were advised by NeilN at User talk:NeilN#AN3 about Madrid about referring to this as an "attack". You're also just basically trying to argue WP:JUSTONE by implying that simply adding a non-free use rationale is all that is needed for a particular non-free use to be NFCC compliant. You seem to have just been just copying-and-pasting boilerplate non-free use rationales onto file pages with the only difference being the names of the articles where the files are being used. Then, when you someone points out to you that WP:NFCC#10c and WP:NFCCE require that non-free use rationales be separate and specific for each non-free use, your response is basically "if you think the rationale is the problem, then fix it yourself". This kind of approach is not really in accordance with relevant policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
    • I think the "attack" language may be justified by the sheer amount of items listed on one day. Editors would have had to spend hours preparing these entries, and if "attack" isn't the right word, "blitz" might do (minus the heavy-metal unless a keyboard is considered metal). Anyone wishing to answer-in-full each and every delete request would have to spend an equal amount if not more time. This doesn't seem fair to me, and language like "attack" (a good-faith attack?) is reasonable to describe the overall intent. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

The arguments being deployed here seem to lead almost inevitably to articles on the history of art since, say, 1923, being almost entirely unillustrated. Further, if these arguments are upheld, then our biographical article on a leading artist such as Jasper Johns will not include any of the artworks for which he is justly famous (no Flag (painting), no Three Flags, no White Flag, no Map (painting)). Is that really what the fair use warriors want? To denude encyclopedic articles of any illustrations that support and add value to the text?

As things stand, we have the ridiculous situation that a ceramic tile copy of Guernica (Picasso) being used on the article about the museum that holds the orginal painting, its most prominent exhibit. Needless to say, the tile copy is a pale shadow of the painting, and is on a wall about 250 miles away from the museum in Madrid.

There is no adequate replacement for a unique, original artwork. We use a low-resolution, thumbnail image to respect the copyright holder's rights, and only use it where justified by encyclopedia concerns and relevant to the article concerned, with a rationale explaining why. Even when images meet all of the requirements of the fair use policy, they are liable to be removed because someone says they fail to navigate through a tick-box laundry list of guidelines, applied in an automatic, knee-jerk fashion, defying all common sense.

The guidelines themselves say they are not exhaustive or determinative, and need to be applied with judgement on a case by case basis according to the spirit of the policy and not its exact words. Images "illustrative of a particular technique or school" are expressly allowed. That surely applies to an article on the history of art or a biography too. 213.205.251.112 (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

NFC would allow:

• The image of a notable piece of art on a standalone page about that piece of art.
• A "few" examples of art from a notable artist as examples of their art. What a "few" is depends: if the artist had only one style they stuck to, then only one or two examples would be reasonable. On the other hand, if we had someone like Picasso with several notable periods, or even different mediums, an example from each would be fair.
• A "few" examples to describe a school of art or technique of art. Again, what a "few" is depends: if it was a short-lived period, probably only one or two. If it was a period that had several iterations, an example from each iteration would be reasonable.

Yes, unfortunately the WMF's stance on non-free goes against the visual and audio arts, so we do have a bit more fairer allowances, but we can't allow the same amount of non-free art that one would normally find in a work that is only bound by fair use. We can provide external links to galleries of art for readers to find more as needed. --Masem (t) 17:42, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

• As you know this argument has been going on for nearly 15 years; the visual works that have been used thus far has been relatively modest; certainly using just a few images to represent decades of art history is useful, educational and valuable. It increases this encyclopedia's credibility. As you know this discussion has been going on since 2006 or before. The few images that we use should be protected...Modernist (talk) 17:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Except that the argument is settled. We have a sitewide policy, which you can protest if you want, but until you change it, we have a party line on how to handle handfuls of fair use images dumped on a page with no textual commentary. czar 16:43, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

• Once again that is your opinion; and to be sure these articles are anything but handfuls of contemporary art dumped onto a page without textual commentary; learn the subject; understand just what is being destroyed...Modernist (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Perhaps you can clarify why some of the non-free files currently being discussed at FFD need to be seen twice within the same article and how does this type of non-free use satisfy WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#10c. For example, File:Robert Rauschenberg's untitled 'combine', 1963.jpg, File:Hans Hofmann's painting 'The Gate', 1959–60.jpg, File:Robert Motherwell's 'Elegy to the Spanish Republic No. 110'.jpg, File:'Bridge' by Kenneth Noland, 1964..jpg, File:'Where', 252 x 362 cm. magna on canvas painting by Morris Louis, Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden, 1960.jpg, File:Frankenthaler Helen Mountains and Sea 1952.jpg and File:Office in a small city hopper 1953.jpg are all being used twice times (some of them even within the same subsection) in History of painting. A seperate specific non-free use rationale is required for each use per NFCC#10c, yet these files have only a single (copied-and-pasted bolierplate) non-free use rationale for these uses in the article. You posted above to Masem that the visual works that have been used thus far has been relatively modest, and that Czar should learn the subject [to] understand what is beiung destroyed. How is using the same non-free file multiple times in the same article "relatively modest" and not "excessive" per NFCC#3a? Does this mean that your argument of "visual art must be seen" also extends to the same non-free file being used multiple times in the same article? Would removing at least one of these multiple uses from the same article "destroy" the article and did you just not notice that these particular files were being used twice within the same article when you added a "Keep all those visual art images below..." or "Keep important work by an important artist..." !votes to their respective FFD discussions? -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
    • Frankly there are indeed only a limited amount of contemporary images to work with. Consequently those images are critically important and should all be kept and used in the few articles that we have. Thank you for pointing out that some were used twice; those images are really only needed once in each article...Modernist (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
      • • A "limited amount of contemporary images to work with"? That's utter nonsense. Very few images of notable artwork are actually "off limits" under WMF policy. What this argument is about (mostly) is enforcing the minimal use standard enacted in WMF policy and embodied in our local NFCC policy. The question is not whether such images may be used at all, but whether they may be used in any article which mentions them, or to which they are in some way "relevant". Nonfree use policy soundly rejects that notion; WP:NFC#UUI #6 holds that a link to an article where the image is displayed is sufficiently informative. That represents the balance that the WMF has chosen to strike in implementing its free content mandate. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
• Total Nonsense, let me repeat what you clearly don't understand - Visual Art needs to be seen - Frankly there are indeed only a limited amount of contemporary images to work with. Consequently those images are critically important and should all be kept and used in the few articles that we have...Modernist (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment. The role of images in art education is different than the role of images in many other usages. Images are the subject matter in articles on visual art. The commentary is of secondary importance. It is seeing the work, or at least a reproduction of a work of art, that is the primary educational tool and aim. Art education is primarily a familiarization with with those works of visual art that various authorities have deemed important or serious or noteworthy. The entire commentary provided by such authorities is a defense of the choices they make in choosing certain works of art to be "special". But educationally it is not the commentary that primarily matters but rather the seeing of the conclusions of their commentary. We are waging an ass-backwards effort if we only provide the commentary and neglect to include the best-quality examples of the images of the works of art. This is so fundamental that it can be overlooked. The restricting of our usage to only freely available images often represents a distinctly second-rate choice if we are trying to convey to the reader a good sense of the item being written about. The cliché of the art-educational classroom setting is of dimmed lighting and projected images. I think this suggests the centrality of images to the subject matter of the sorts of articles under discussion. Bus stop (talk) 12:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

There is no attempt to prevent having images alongside commentary, but by virtual of the nature of WP being written in summary style, and that the area of visual arts generally gets dissected along the lines of school/style and of geographic region/history, there's only a few logical places that that commentary can fall: an article about the painting itself, or if that doesn't exist, the painter, the specific school, and the specific geographic region, and in the case of this last two, only if the work is a well-established piece that belongs to that skill. The problem with how the visual art articles are set up is that commentary is reproduced unnecessarily in the broader school/styles or geographic regions so that the images are being repeated unnecessarily to go along with it. If you are going to write articles like History of Painting as a summary style (rather that split up into segments), then you are necessarily going to have to cut down on image use - free and non-free - in the summary-level articles, as these should be overviews and not comprehensive as they are now. That's what's causing the problem with non-free images. I can understand that there might be a few cases - on the order of a dozen - of reasonable necessary examples that will filter up and be reused as well-recognized, key examples that support the summary style as to keep a balance on the page, but it's far less than what this project uses currently. --Masem (t) 14:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I would think the article History of painting would be as comprehensive as possible. The use of these images, essential to such a page and to the literal history of painting, seems fine and actually necessary to give our readers the sense-of-subject that they expect to find. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:18, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

• We have cut down image use extensively although those images used are crucial in order to be able to explain visually and educate our readers properly regarding these complex diversities in the visual arts...Modernist (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

WP does not encourage writing at a deeply comprehensive styles at multiple topic levels; that's the whole point of summary style. For that reason, the top level articles like History of Painting should not have significant commentary on any one work, a detail better left to more specific articles. --Masem (t) 14:54, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

*

Images speak louder than a thousand words. Coldcreation (talk) 23:34, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

• Loudness is not one of Wikipedia's goals. A narrative focused on loudness is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

New Retitle "Yale Student Abortion Art Controversy" discussion

If you have an opinion, discussion at Talk:Yale_student_abortion_art_controversy#Title_change_still_called_for.

Has been going on, in various forms, since the middle of May. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)