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Beijing Open

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Sela has defeted ranked 5# david ferrer... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.69.4.124 (talk) 18:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serve and volleyer?

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I've seen Sela play a few times, and not once did he serve and volley, except for his latest matches in London. Do 3 games on grass make you a serve and volleyer? Is Roger Federer considered a serve and volleyer because he occasionally serve and volleys on grass?

We need more references other than Filip Bondy's take on Sela. RaLo18 (talk with me • my contributions) 09:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A proper citation to a reliable source is what Wiki calls for, and that is what we have. You having seem him play "a few times" does not rise to the same level. I'm not aware that we "need" more than one reference to an appropriate source.--Epeefleche (talk) 14:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Of course my personal experience of his games isn't enough. I didn't delete the statement, I only added {{fact}}.
More than one citation isn't always needed, but in this case, I don't think this one citation is enough. Dudi Sela isn't a notable player, he only reached (limited) global attention this week, by getting to the 4th round of Wimbledon. The journalist can't possibly characterize his style of play correctly with such limited knowledge. RaLo18 (talk with me • my contributions) 17:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The way that I understand Wikipedia works is that we are supposed to cite to a reliable source for a statement, which I've done (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources). The "fact template" is supposed to be used "to identify sentences ... which need an inline citation" (see Template:Fact), but here there is already such an inline citation to a reliable source (he has been a New York Daily News sports columnist since 1993, and that is certainly considered a reliable source). And, btw, see this just in ... Sela talking about how his serve and volley game was upset in today's match by retunrns at his feet ... [1] (Sela: "I couldn't come in after my serve because every time is on my feet"). Our own personal experience based on observing him play "a few times" would come under "original research" (see Wikipedia:No original research) or POV (see [2], which says "The prohibition against original research limits the extent to which editors may present their own points of view in articles .... reinforcing the importance of including verifiable research produced by others .... this policy reinforces our neutrality policy. .... If your viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts.... Wikipedia is not the place for original research), neither of which would warrant a request for a citation where one already exists. That being said, I've softened the statement to allow for the possiblity that it is not universally held.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, my own personal experience of watching his games doesn't matter, I agree. But it doesn't make what you wrote correct.
I have two problems with the current wording:
  • One's playing style isn't "viewed as", it's a fact that is "measured" as a whole.
  • Not every reliable source is correct. The press isn't always correct, is it?
No one can characterize one's playing style after seeing him play a a few matches, all of which played on the same surface at the same tournament. A player can have a certain tactic which he uses during a certain tournament or on a certain surface, but his playing style will be the tactic which he has used during all his career or a significant part of it. We need more citations to be sure such statement is actually correct (f.e. Laura Robson's playing style paragraph consists of 6 different citations).
If you want to include "serve and volley" in his playing style, you should write something like this: "Sela is very quick and uses his leg speed to serve and volley on grass courts", or even a more correct statement: "Sela is very quick and used his leg speed to serve and volley during the 2009 Wimbledon Championships". Both version are awkward, but any other statement about his playing style should be cited better. RaLo18 (talk with me • my contributions) 22:22, 29 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so if we agree that your personal experience of watching Sela a few times doesn't matter, the issues become -- with the reliable sources that we have at hand -- 1) if we are to describe his playing style, what do we say?, and 2) do we have a reliable source on which to base the statement? Here we have one reliable source (under wikipedia guidelines). His statement was not narrowed the way that you have narrowed it, however. He states simply that Sela is a serve and volleyer. I have mirrored his statement. He did not limit it to one match, or one tournament, and I therefore have no reason to change his words and do so if I wish to cite him accurately.
As to your point about the press not always being correct, I would refer you to Wikipedia:Verifiability, which says "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." And that is precisely what I have done. If there are other reliable sources that you would like to refer to that have a different or complementary view, by all means add them. But I believe I've faithfully followed the direction of Wikipedia guidelines here, and bent over to address your concern.
One last point. The editor here is not only a seasoned editor from a reliable publication, but one need not assume that he formed his opinion on the basis only of his observation of Sela at Wimbledon. He may have seen him at other matches. He may have referred to the press guide. He may have spoken to colleagues of his on his publication and other publications who observed Sela in other matches. He may have reviewed statistics from Sela's career. In any event, all that Wikipedia asks is that if we have a reliable source with a statement that we reflect it accurately and attribute it properly, which is I believe what I have done.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:19, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If we follow Wikipedia guidelines strictly, then your statement is correct. But Wikipedia guidelines are guidelines, not rules. And I believe that this time, we can't strictly follow the guidelines, because we might get ridiculous statements (I don't want to say that we did get ridiculous statements, because "my own personal experience of watching his games doesn't matter", but that's pretty much the situation).
I'm not going to continue this conversation, because you have your opinion and I have mine, and they're not going to change (and starting an edit war isn't a good idea either), but I don't think this statement will last long (unless, of course, Sela changes his playing style).
PS, I removed one citation of the playing style section, as Djokovic didn't say anything about Sela being a serve and volleyer (you might have misread it. Djokovic said Haas plays good serve and volley. And actually, that's still not enough to make some a serve and volleyer, becuase it means he's good at it, not that he uses it a lot). RaLo18 (talk with me • my contributions) 08:43, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Archiving

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Unless there is a consensus against it, I suggest automatic archiving of this talk page. If you have thoughts as to archiving, including paramaters (ie, maximum number of strings not archived at any time, and amount of time strings left on page without any response -- if they exceed that max number), pls leave your thoughts here.--Epeefleche (talk) 23:37, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why?--Oneiros (talk) 23:43, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously, no need as of yet--and the parameters could ensure that it would not take comments of the front talk page while they are recent or they are few in number. But I think its good to put in place now, so that when there are a number of comments on this page that are stale the page is not cluttered. I'm open on the parameters.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:00, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My defaults are 10 threads and 30 days.--Oneiros (talk) 00:11, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Works for me. Happy to await others' input.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:13, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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