Talk:The Holocaust

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Former good article nominee The Holocaust was a History good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Date Process Result
March 9, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted
January 19, 2006 Good article nominee Listed
July 5, 2006 Good article reassessment Kept
November 16, 2006 Featured article candidate Not promoted
May 3, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted
June 11, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
October 3, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee
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This is purely just an opinion[edit]

Currently under the Jehowa's Witness section it reads: "Historian Detlef Garbe writes that "no other religious movement resisted the pressure to conform to National Socialism with comparable unanimity and steadfastness."[449]". This is purely just an opinion, not a fact.

Photo replacement ...[edit]

Jadviga Dzido Nuremberg.jpg

I'd like to remove File:Doctors' trial, Nuremberg, 1946–1947.jpg and replace it with a photo of a victim of the experiments, rather than the rather dry photo of the defendants. I looked around and found the photo to the right, but it's not very clear and I don't believe the victim is Jewish. Anyone have any better options? I know there are a few photos around of some of the Dachau experiments. There's also one of the Roma children from Auschwitz, but I do not have access to a good quality reproduction of it. Ealdgyth - Talk 22:27, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

We could try to track down a better version of the Roma children. I would like to see that restored. I was in touch years ago with someone who knew about that image, so I can resume contact, but that will be a longer term project. For now, I'm fine with any image you suggest. SarahSV (talk) 22:36, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
One reason I'm hesitant to use an Auschwitz image is that there are already quite a few in the article - it'd be nice to fight the image that many people have of Auschwitz being the only place the Holocaust took place. Let me see if the USHMM book has better images... I'm open to suggestions - images are not my strong suit, I'll admit. (I'm a wildlife/landscape photographer, not a people photographer!) Ealdgyth - Talk 23:30, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Both photos in Nazi human experimentation are fair use so those aren't much help (and I'd rather not duplicate photos from a sub-article if we can avoid it). I checked The World Must Know but it actually lacks any photos or discussion of the medical experiments. They do have the Roma children photo, with a credit which might help if we want to go that route. It doesn't help that Commons is so strangely categorized - most of the images under the Nazi experimentation categories are of the perpetrators, not the victims. Helm's RAvensbruck has a few photos, including one of Dzido testifying at Nuremburg and showing off her mangled leg from the experiments, but its a very small photo published on regular paper, so its even worse than the one above. Helm credits "Ullstein/Topfoto" for that photo. On the same page there is an image of Maria Kusmierczuk in the camp showing her mutilated leg - the credit for that is with the USHMM and it's on their site as this image (for which they are claiming copyright, heh). They have this video of her testimony at Nuremburg showing her leg, but I suck so badly at video stuff I couldn't begin to extract the useful bits for the article - but that'd be a great addition... I'll keep digging on the USHMM site... Ealdgyth - Talk 23:55, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, there are 70 public domain photos at the USHMM under the search for "medical experiment". Some of them are a bit grisly. Open to suggestions of which ones would work. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:03, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Start of Holocaust[edit]

The Holocaust started on 16th August 1941, when Himmler gave permission to the death squads to start killing Jewish children. scope_creep (talk) 18:16, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Citation request[edit]

Ealdgyth, re: this, they don't use that definition. Their definition includes the Jews, Roma, and Aktion T4 victims: "the systematic, state-sponsored murder of entire groups determined by heredity. This applied to Jews, Gypsies, and the handicapped" (p. 52).

I'm looking for mainstream academic historians who actually use the broadest definition. If none do, we ought to rewrite that sentence ("other groups were persecuted"). If they do, we should name them in a footnote. SarahSV (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

They don't use that definition themselves - but they say that's it a definiton that can be used - they mention all those groups on the pages 45-51 - and then say "A fourth definition would insist on seeing Nazi racism whole and describe the Holocaust as an inseparable complex of policies and events encompassing all racially motivated crimes and all their victims." They enumerate the victims in the section headers: Gypsies, the mentally and physically handicapped, Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet citizens, and "political prisoners, religious dissenters and homosexuals". They also summarize historians who include each of those groups in each section - for the handicapped they mention Henry Friedlander's The Origin of Nazi Genocide. For Soviet POWs - they mention Wytwycky The Other Holocaust and Streit and Forster in The Policies of Genocide. For Polish and Soviet civilians - they mention Wytwycky again, Lukas The Forgotten Holocaust, Kamenetsky Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe. Homosexuals are included in The Pink Triangle by Plant and The Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals by Rector. Bergen War and Genocide (3rd ed.) (pp. 3-4) includes the Jews and handicapped and Roma first, and then later says ""At the same time, Nazi Germany persecuted, incarcerated, massacred, worked to death, and deliberately starved millions of people in the occupied territories to the east - non-Jewish Poles, especially those in leadership positions; Soviet prisoners of war, accused partisans and people in large cities. Back home the regime attacked German Communists, gay men, Jehova's Witnesses, Afro-Germans, and other people deemed unwanted in Hiter's "new order." Whether or not one considers members of any or all of these groups to belong under the label "victims of the Holocaust," their fates were entwined in significant ways with that of the Jews targeted and murdered...This book seeks to identify and explore connections between and among victim groups..." Included in THe Holocaust and History: The Known, the Unknown, the Disputed, and the Reexamined (ed. Michael Berenbaum and Abraham J. Peck) are chapters on "The Michling, the Judischversippte, and the Gypsies", "Slapping up Spastics" (the handicapped), homosexuals, and "the Black experience during the Holocaust". In the introduction to Part 6 in that work "Multiple Voices: Ideology, exclusion, and coercion", the editors say "One of the most divisive and persistent academic debates over the past fifteen yeras has centered around the question of who the victims of the Holocaust were. Is the word "Holocaust" to be confied solely to what the Nazis termed the "Final Solution of the Jewish problem", the systematic, state-sponsored execution of the Jews, or does the HOlocaust encompass a mosaic of Nazi victims - Soviet prisoners of war; Jehovah's Witnesses; mentally retarded, physically handicapped, or emotionally disturbed Germans; Roma and Sinti; German male homosexuals; trade unionists; political dissidents; and outspoken clergymen." (the introduction is from 1998 - so the 15 years covers 1983-1998). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
They say that a "fourth definition would insist" (conditional), not that any historian actually uses it. I think we should provide names of historians who do use that definition; if none do, the lead is misleading and violates UNDUE. The overwhelming majority of Holocaust historians confine it to the Jews. Some extend it to the Roma and disabled. Some restrict it to post-1941; others admit events before that. But does any Holocaust historian use the broadest definition that we offer in this lead? SarahSV (talk) 17:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
I suspect there are some genocide scholars that do. Bergen certainly includes those she mentioned in her third edtion - although most of the coverage is on the Jewish genocide. Berenbaum and Peck also included at least homosexuals and blacks in their definition, as they included those categories in The Holocaust and History. For that matter - the USHMM includes many of the above in their "Introduction to the Holocaust page. Personally, I prefer the narrow definition but it's not my choice to just cover the Jewish genocide. If we take out the sentence in question, we'd need to remove the sections on those groups from the body of the article, because then they would make no sense to be covered. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:22, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Writing from memory, Berenbaum doesn't, and the museum doesn't: "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." [1]
The USHMM does say (and I think we should too): "During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived 'racial inferiority': Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and homosexuals."
But that's quite different from saying there is this third, broadest, definition that we refer to, with all the groups we include. SarahSV (talk) 17:30, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm not wedded to the language or it being there - something like it was there when I started revamping and it was part of my "don't rock the boat too much" to not remove things that I could find sources for. Part of the problem is that historians usually don't do "definitions" ... it's like we're allergic to them or something. The gods forbid that we should like define our scope somewhere in plain English... like I said - if it was me writing this article for a textbook - I'd only include Jewish victims, but that's not what the sources do so... Ealdgyth - Talk 17:37, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
I've added words about a "larger event", and used "including" so that we don't list all the groups in the lead. SarahSV (talk) 19:13, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Ordering the non-Jewish victims by the number killed[edit]

Perhaps it's a minor edit proposal, but the sentence that lists the non-Jewish victims seems to be ordered randomly (?), which may skew the perception of a casual reader: "[...] Roma and "incurably sick", as well as political opponents, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, ethnic Poles, and Soviet prisoners of war."

I think it would be prudent to order them by the number of casualties: "ethnic Poles and other Slavs (most notably Ukrainians and Belorusians), Soviet prisoners of war, as well as political opponents, the Roma, "incurably sick", Freemasons, homosexuals and Jehovah's Witnesses."

As you can see, I also added Freemasons and non-Polish Slavs, which all had significantly more victims than, for example, Jehovah's Witnesses or homosexuals.

Pikulis (talk) 22:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)