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Requested move 8 December 2018

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 11:41, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Raúl Juliá → Raul Julia – per WP:COMMONNAME. The spelling of Raul Julia with accent marks is unsupported by the article's sources; very few web or print sources use them and encyclopedias such as Britannica don't either. (Even sources that otherwise use diacritics don't use them for his name.) He is also credited as "Raul Julia" in all of his major screen roles. NB that the English pronunciation of his name also differs from the Spanish, i.e. the j and the stress on the first syllable of his surname. —  AjaxSmack  20:15, 8 December 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. SITH (talk) 20:56, 15 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Raul Julia's full birth name was Raúl Rafael Julia y Arcelay and while the short form of his birth name may be indicated as Raúl Julia, his stage name was Raul Julia. It should be also noted that, as specified in the above discussion from 2010, under section header "The Surname is Incorrect", the name Julia is not accented in Spanish. Wikipedia has various entries from the Spanish-speaking world, such as Julia Duporty from Cuba, Julia Menéndez from Spain, Julia Navarro from Spain, Julia Piera from Spain or Puerto Rican poet Julia de Burgos, with none of those entries accenting "Julia".    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:31, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Julia may not be accented in Spanish, but it does not matter since Raúl Juliá did accent Juliá when he wrote his own name. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:11, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia main title headers and article contents are based upon WP:RELIABLE SOURCES and all reliable sources including, ultimately, Raul Julia's own gravestone, indicate no accents.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just follow nationality. Don't put individuals on the spot. The problem of "sources" if not following nationality and seeking to Britishize or Americanize people of Spanish-speaking nationality is twofold (a) Low-MOS sources predominate, Twitter Facebook and so on habitually see people simplify their names. Screen credits are also generally a Low-MOS source. There's also the cultural aspect. (b) About five years ago we had a BLP RM on en.wp trying to Anglicize someone's name. In the discussion an anti-diacritics editor (or pro tabloid MOS editor whatever) actually contacted the BLP on their website and got a public admission that they didn't mind "the American spelling" --- it was one of the creepiest things I have ever seen on en.wp. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:21, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Raul Julia was a star actor in English-language film, television and stage. Unlike another star Puerto Rican English-language actor who was intermittently credited as José Ferrer or Jose Ferrer, Raul Julia chose not to use accents in his billing. Each individual's experience is different and each Wikipedia entry needs to reflect such differences. Nationality can only be a guide on a case-by-case basis: Zbigniew Brzeziński was born in Poland, the son of Polish diplomat Tadeusz Brzeziński, but his career was in the English-speaking world and he chose to drop the diacritic in his surname. In Raul Julia's case, his notability rests upon his stardom under the unaccented stage name by which he was best known to the public.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 10:46, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How do we know he "chose", sounds like WP:OR. Juliá was Puerto Rican born and buried. He never rescinded that citizenship. By comparison Zbigniew Brzezinski was an American, so he was American not Polish. We need to stop putting individuals who are not American or British on trial on our guesses over their ethnic "choice" to be spelled as Americans and British, and just have a consistent approach based on the nationality rather than our opinions. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:14, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The matter of Puerto Rican citizenship was already discussed at Talk:Monica Puig#Requested move September 12, 2016. The lead sentences of Political status of Puerto Rico state that "[T]he political status of Puerto Rico is that of an unincorporated territory of the United States. As such, the island is neither a sovereign nation nor a U.S. state." Thus, Puerto Ricans are born as U.S. citizens and travel on a U.S. passport. By contrast, Zbigniew Brzeziński was born and raised as an adolescent in pre-war Poland and did not become a U.S. citizen until 1958, when he was 30 years old. By then he had already become an academic and published papers under his surname without the diacritic.
As a star actor, Raul Julia expressed his identity in the billing of his name. In 1981, the U.S. Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit, agreed with actor Paul L. Smith's contention that "the only thing an actor has is his name and if that's taken away, he has nothing", awarding him damages for improper billing. In his Oscar-winning title role in Cyrano de Bergerac (1950 film), José Ferrer was credited as José Ferrer, but in a substantial number of his other film and television roles he is credited as Jose Ferrer. Raul Julia, however, is billed in virtually all his on-screen credits, both film and TV, as Raul Julia, not as Raúl Juliá or Raúl Julia, since as has been pointed out, in Spanish, "Julia" is not accented.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Raul Julia expressed his identity in the billing of his name." This just simply is WP:OR about a BLP. Do you have any source that in signing a contract for a film Raúl Juliá was asked "Hey Raúl (prounced "Ra-ul" not "Rowel") by the way, the credits are going to have accents for the other Puerto Rican and non-American actors in the film, do you want to be spelled fully or simplified, and Juliá replied - I'd prefer not to have accents indicating that I am Puerto Rican and a Spanish-speaker" .... what's more the issue is that film credits and posters tend to be Low-MOS, and his co-actor Sônia Braga also has her name Americanized in Kiss of the Spider Woman's credits and posters. Foreign names are likely to be a visual challenge to the technicians and artists who make credits and posters, and equally important "foreignness" is generally off-putting to the mass English-speaking audience in non-art films. (Witness the long history on en.wp of a minority of tennis editors holding RFCs on enforcing Wimbledon-names for East Europeans. Don't say it isn't a thing). So..... stick to a standard national MOS for BLPs. It's not our job to Britishize or Americanize non British or American citizens. It's not as if Spanish accents on a Puerto-Rican name will prevent recognition is it? Or if we're going to do it then do it to all non-Anglos who've also appeared in English-language films, don't just target one. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:39, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
One size does not fit all natives of Puerto Rico. Some have English as their birth language and do not use accents in their names. When he rose to the level of film, television and stage star, he had the option of insisting on accented billing, either as Raúl Juliá or as Raúl Julia, pointing out the fact that José Ferrer received accented billing on his Oscar-winning/nominated Cyrano, Joan of Arc (1948 film) and Moulin Rouge (1952 film) (but not in a number of other films, such as The Caine Mutiny). There is no record, however, of him making an issue of it. Ultimately, Raul Julia, in the same manner as José Ferrer, was an actor whose career was entirely in the English language film, TV and theater and his stage name, unlike the alternating billing for José Ferrer, has been Raul Julia.
Examples should also be provided for actors, such as Rade Šerbedžija, Joanna Pacuła or the above-mentioned Sônia Braga, whose film and television careers originated outside the English-speaking world, but whose English-speaking credits do not include the diacritics in their name. There are even special cases, such as that of Slovenian-American actor Željko Ivanek whose article states that "his contract includes a rider to ensure that the character Ž in "Željko" does not appear as Z in the credits". Thus, each individual brings his own circumstances into the discussion and Raul Julia is not being singled for unfair Anglicization that is not applied to others.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:55, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly none of those non-American actors have been targeted for anglicization and not a chance it would happen without riots in the street. So on what basis are we singling out Puerto Ricans? In ictu oculi (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The key difference is that, by the time they started appearing in English-speaking parts, actors such as Rade Šerbedžija had already established non-English-speaking acting careers, with on-screen credits indicating their stage names with diacritics and/or accents. All the parts that they have played in the English-speaking world have been "accented parts" in that they would never be cast as native speakers of English. By contrast, unless he was specifically playing a non-native speaker of English, Raul Julia's English speech was that of a native speaker.
Also, it should be noted, as a result of the current main header, the Wikipedia credits of nearly all of the films and TV episodes in which Raul Julia appeared have made historically incorrect by the addition of accents to his name when no such accents appear in the on-screen credits. The main point, however, is the actor's own billing preference. Both José Ferrer and Željko Ivanek, who have primarily played native speakers of English, have intermittently insisted that their on-screen credits include the accent/diacritic (those Wikipedians who insist on uniformity, have been inserting the accent/diacritic in their names even when their on-screen credits show no such marks), but there is no record of Raul Julia making such billing requests. Ultimately, each case has its own background and each should be considered on its own merits and this case falls on the side of no accents.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 12:38, 14 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry but why are you repeating this? We've just dealt with this above. José Ferrer is spelled José Ferrer. So you're saying that that's wrong too? If it's wrong why not launch a blanket movement against all non-Anglos from all countries whom Anglo-Saxon typesetters have simplified? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:18, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I've already indicated, the main title header of each actor's Wikipedia article should indicate that actor's most frequently credited stage name. The stage names of actors who are native speakers of English, and whose careers originated in the English-speaking world, do not contain accents and/or diacritics unless, as in the cases of José Ferrer and Željko Ivanek, those actors make a point of using accents and/or diacritics, even if intermittently. Raul Julia, on the other hand, unlike José Ferrer and Željko Ivanek, did not make use of accented billing in any of his film credits and therefore his name should not be accented in Wikipedia's main header of his article.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:57, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Surely you mean Strong oppose, as there has been zero evidence presented here that Raúl Juliá wanted to be singled out to be treated differently from all other Puerto Ricans on en.wp. Quite the contrary. Washington Post obituary 25 Oct 1994 - "While playing many non-Latino roles, Mr. Julia was proud of his Latino heritage and what it contributes to the United States. "We're going to give the whole country salsa, spice," he once said. "That cold, analytical computer-like Saxon mentality is going out the window... " These aren't the words of someone denying his language or culture, they are the words of someone unduly optimistic that the Saxon mentality was going out of the window. If only... In ictu oculi (talk) 18:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Surely I mean Strong support. I don't think it's anyone's right to tell someone else how their own name is meant to be written. I "hispanicize" my own name in Spanish and "franckisize" my name into French, and I know others who don't, and it has nothing to do with our pride for our own culture and heritage or our love or disdain for the other culture and language. And it is fully neither your choice nor anyone else's at Wikipedia as to how we should present someone who seems to always presented himself a certain way. Your goal of forcing accents on people that never use them in English is forcing your own beliefs onto the people we write biographies on. If my name is Martin Smith, I should have the right to decide if I want to be called "Martín Smith" or "Martin Smith" in Spanish. Raul Julia should have that same right. And in the real world, he did, and opted for Raul Julia. It's time for Wikipedia to stop thinking that it knows better than Raul himself knew. Red Slash 23:48, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Red Slash, excuse me but the actor in question is dead, how exactly are you communicating with him? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:06, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • OpposeMy (real life) name has diacritics as well. When I travel to the 50 states for work they usually spell it without. I don't make a big deal out of out, but I can assure I am ever notable enough that someone made a Wikipedia article about me I would want it spelled as my birth certificate. El Johnson (talk) 21:13, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – if mostly credited as "Raul Julia" then that is not only the WP:COMMONNAME, it's also how the subject wanted his name spelled. This is a no-brainer. If he was often credited with the diacritics, then there would be something to argue about, but it looks like he was credited with diacritics just twice... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:29, 18 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Actually, when he wrote out his own name it was with the diacritics (as shown in the examples I gave below). Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:08, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose - Juliá and Julia are two completely different names in Spanish. Juliá is a Valencian family name, while Julia is the Castillian version of Latin Iulia. Neither the generalized ignorance of Americans when it comes to diacritics nor the lack of these marks on English keyboards are good enough reasons to change somebody's real name, or to alter the correct, unequivocal orthography of their own language. Neodop (talk) 13:26, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Raul Julia was not born in Valencia or Castile, but as a U.S. citizen in the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico. His English was that of a native speaker and his stage name, per WP:COMMONNAME, was Raul Julia, the name credited on-screen in every single one of his films and the name by which he was best known to the public.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 11:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Roman Spinner, Puerto Rico is Spanish speaking. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In ictu oculi, all Puerto Ricans are American citizens, some are English speakers, while many (most?) are bilingual speakers of Spanish and English.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:53, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And as an American citizen, he has United States nationality by legal definition. How does that fit with the "just use nationality" criterion In ictu oculi prefers? --Khajidha (talk) 05:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well "Raul Julia was not born in Valencia or Castile, but as a U.S. citizen in the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico" says it all. This is where this RM discussion turns. It isn't really about Raúl Juliá or about how we treat Spanish or Mexican bios, it's about whether Puerto Rican identity deserves the same respect. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:16, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion is not structured as a general inquiry into which Puerto Ricans accent their surnames in the Valencian form and which Puerto Ricans use the Castilian form, thus highlighting that the original comment, which brought the "not born" reply, did not address the specific case of Raul Julia who was born in Puerto Rico, not in the old country, and based his unaccented stage name upon his acting career in the English-speaking world.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:45, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Surely then we should strip accents and Americanize all Puerto Ricans. WP Puerto Rico is dormant if not dead. There is nothing to stop a giant clean up of Puerto Rican biographies making them all acceptable to visually challenged English readers. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:35, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - While it seems many (if not most) notable people change their name spelling in English and drop their diacritics, Raúl Juliá is a rare one who did not. This can be seen in his official autographs here, here, here, and many more. How he was born or how other Raul Julia's spell their names is useless, and I'm all for using common English in many of these cases. But when we have examples of the common way he spelled his own name when giving out English autographs, I would go with his usage. We don't always get this kind of proof to override "commonname" but in this particular case we do. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bela Lugosi also signed his letters "Béla" since that is how the Hungarian given name is written in Hungarian. However, as was pointed out in the 2011 discussion aimed at moving Béla Lugosi → Bela Lugosi (Talk:Bela Lugosi#Requested move), his stage name was Bela Lugosi and that is how he was referenced in newspapers and magazines. There are numerous examples of foreign-born actors such as Szőke Szakáll or Pál Lukács whose WP:COMMONNAMEs were S. Z. "Cuddles" Sakall and Paul Lukas and they were billed and referenced under those stage names.
WP:COMMONNAMEs are very rarely overridden and there is no good reason to override it in the case of Raul Julia. Film, television and theater references such as American Film Institute Catalog, IMDb, AllMovie, British Film Institute, TVGuide or Internet Broadway Database all list him as Raul Julia. Find a Grave also lists him as Raul Julia and his gravestone does not indicate an accent. Actors are indicated by their stage names and his stage name was, indeed, Raul Julia.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can have an opinion if they can back it up with sources. I tend to go with what he did with his own hands, not what others do for him. The reverse is also true. If I see someone like Jelena Jankovic sign her own name without diacritics, then they should be removed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:58, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The signatures of various people take various forms — some use calligraphy and others place illegible squiggles. The form of a celebrity's signature, which may undergo numerous inconsistencies over years, cannot cancel out numerous reliable sources, including sources crucial to Raul Julia's profession as a star actor. Here is Raul Julia's entry at the Golden Globes website (he was nominated four times and won once), here is his entry at the Emmy Awards website which lists him as a posthumous winner and here is his entry at Turner Classic Movies. There are many others and all list him as Raul Julia.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 02:54, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To each his own. I try to be consistent with how I look at things on this issue. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:03, 24 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A premature supposition that an actor's autograph flourishes would take precedence over his common name, his stage name, all reliable sources and his own gravestone. Even our own !votes here so far are 9 in "support" of using his stage name and only 5 "oppose".    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 10:44, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The numbers here mean nothing as it's not a head count. Strength of argument is what is important, and that will be up to the closer. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:53, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Which doesn't apply to bio names or font issues. If it did... In ictu oculi (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why wouldn't it? You're simply stating something as if its fact without providing evidence. -- Netoholic @ 06:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Well the evidence is staring us all in the face. Browse through en.wp and find a modern bio article title or mention where fonts have been stripped because English print sources don't always carry them. It's exactly because all articles for Puerto Ricans have Puerto Rican (Mexican, Mexican, French, French, etc etc) full fonts that this RM is happening, to make this article an exception. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:37, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not an exception. A similarly lengthy discussion had already taken place at Talk:Monica Puig#Requested move September 12, 2016 and the results confirmed that she was likewise not referenced with an accent. Each case brings its own circumstances. Names commonly referenced as accented should be indicated with accents. However, neither the name of Monica Puig nor the name of Raul Julia has been accented in reliable sources and therefore neither name should be accented in its Wikipedia main title header.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:01, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
So the accent-stripped Olympic gold exception is evidence that all other en.wp articles are wrong?
I already mentioned that Monica Puig Marchán (sic: either Mónica Puig Marchán or Monica Puig Marchan, why has the accent only been removed from half her name in article lead?) was the first Puerto Rican to be targeted for Americanization on en.wp a couple of years ago. So yes this would be the second exception. Are we about to launch a full scale Americanization of Puerto Rican biographies? Why stop with Puerto Ricans? Why not roll out Americanization to all Spanish and Portuguese speaking peoples also? Shouldn't there be an RfC rather than doing this one at a time? And while we're at it, why not get Beyoncé and Charlotte Brontë too, since low-MOS sources don't use those accents either. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:07, 28 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, one size does not fit all Puerto Ricans or, for that matter, Poles, Hungarians and numerous others. The main title header for Zbigniew Brzezinski's father, the Polish diplomat Tadeusz Brzeziński, is listed with the diacritic, but Zbigniew dropped it before becoming US citizen at the age of 30. His signatures, however, indicate that the mark over the "n" persisted beyond his 1958 citizenship. His daughter Mika Brzezinski and sons Ian Brzezinski and Mark Brzezinski, all born in the U.S., have not been using the diacritic.
Born in Puerto Rico, Best Actor Oscar winner José Ferrer has been credited intermittently as José or Jose, but reliable sources, such as American Film Institute Catalog, list him as José, thus supporting the header of his Wikipedia entry.
On the other hand, all reliable sources indicate the name in question as Raul Julia, thus supporting the contention that Raul Julia should be his entry's header. The concept of "Just follow nationality" treats all individuals holding the same national identity as a unit and imposes the same linguistic and orthographic directives upon all, thus depriving them of individuality and free will.
Examples for individuals such as as Beyoncé or Charlotte Brontë or groups such as Mötley Crüe, simply confirm that each case should be considered on its own circumstances and not on mass applications of the same linguistic rules.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:16, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would never suggest that we treat all Raul Julia's the same no matter if 50 of them were born in Puerto Rico. It's case by case in how people spell their names in English. If we have no example of how they spell it themselves, I would always say to use the common usage sources. We don't really have his personal facebook and twitter accounts to check, but in this case we do have authenticated autographs with him using those diacritics, so why should we do otherwise? Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:42, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Writers are known by their pen names and actors are known by their stage names. Mark Twain was known to sign his real name Samuel Langhorne Clemens or Sam Clemens. Tony Curtis would jocularly write his name as "Bernie Schwartz" (his birth name) and Cary Grant would do the same with "Archie Leach". Those names are fine as redirects, but not as main title headers of Wikipedia articles.
As far as the accented autograph form, Raúl Juliá, is concerned, it is likewise fine as a redirect, but it is not the form by which he was known to the public. There are posters and playbills of his Broadway and Off-Broadway appearances, there are film posters and TV listings, there are film and TV reference sources and all are unanimous in indicating his name as Raul Julia, not as Raúl Juliá, thus confirming that Raul Julia was the name form that he himself presented as his public name. Finally, his family resting place is in Puerto Rico, where many gravestones display accent marks, but his gravestone does not.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:30, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What a time waste - "Once again, one size does not fit all Puerto Ricans or, for that matter, Poles, Hungarians and numerous others.", yes it does. It would save RMs like this for the several 10,000s of bios on en.wp. And the follow nationality default is working fine. All this RM does is reopen the diacritic wars. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:55, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Our discussions are key to arriving at a resolution. If we considered those to be a waste of time, we would not be here in the first place or we would hang "RETIRED" shingles on our user pages. The model is based upon consensus, not slavish consistency. If the "follow nationality" default worked fine, !votes would not have been submitted here in support of accent deletion.
A much better model is the one based upon reliable sources. Each individual brings his or her unique characteristics to the discussion. Andrei Serban was born in Romania, but the recent Andrei Șerban → Andrei Serban proposal at Talk:Andrei Serban#Requested move 3 May 2018 received your support. For the most part, José Ferrer's historical references accent his name, while Raul Julia's historical references do not. Thus, each historical size is worn differently, which is as it should be, since each person's life choices are unique.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:57, 29 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because Andrei Serban is an American. Hence American spelling. (Isn't anyone reading the nationality part of the discussion?) In ictu oculi (talk) 08:12, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Andrei Serban is an American in the same manner that Polish-born and raised Zbigniew Brzezinski or Stanley Wojcicki (born Stanisław Jerzy Wójcicki) are Americans. All came to the U.S. in their twenties, became U.S. citizens and made the choice of not using diacritics in their names.
Linguistic and national pride are nothing new on Wikipedia and those who take pride in Polish heritage prefer that the main title header for American film director Richard Boleslawski, who was born and raised in Poland and even directed films in his homeland, should be indicated via his Polish stage name Ryszard Bolesławski
The names of Ukrainian people (Talk:Oleg Sentsov#Requested move 21 October 2016) and Ukrainian cities (Talk:Kiev#Russian transliteration in the lead) have been transliterated into English using their Russian forms and there are currently many competing forces pulling in opposite directions.
Swedish linguistic supporters ultimately prevailed in the lengthy RMs regarding the main title header for Malin Akerman (Talk:Malin Åkerman#Requested move (2007), Talk:Malin Åkerman#Åkerman, Talk:Malin Åkerman#Proposed Move (2010), etc). And so it goes. However, it is the preponderance of English-language reliable sources that should be the deciding factor.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:02, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And Raul Julia is an American, too. How is being an American citizen sufficient to remove diacritics from one person's name, but not from another? And what do you even mean by "nationality"? Is it based on country of birth? Country of citizenship? Native language? How do border changes affect it? Far from being a clear criterion, "nationality" is inherently vague to the point of uselessness. --Khajidha (talk) 17:39, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. After reading through his article, his uncle's article, and this discussion's references, I have decided to oppose this move request. Also, editors commenting here seem to be questioning even the Spanish spelling of his name, and even its Puerto Rican Spanish spelling. I make 2 observations: (1) In Puerto Rican Spanish, Raúl is used only as a first name and is always spelled "Raúl". Other examples are Raúl Castro, Raúl Esparza, and Raúl Prebisch. (2) As for his last name (Juliá), in Spanish it can be spelled both without and with the diacritical mark above the "a" depending on whether it is used as a first name or as a last name. When it is used as a first name, it is spelled without a diacritical ("Julia"). When it is used as a last name it is spelled with a diacritical mark (Juliá). To the best of my knowledge, there is no Spanish last name "Julia"; i.e., spelled without the diacritical mark. Since its used in this article is as a last name, its spelling has to be "Juliá".
I also add that the spelling of the name of a person born in Puerto Rico has absolutely nothing to do with politics (as in the common argument "Puerto Ricans are American citizens"). Politically Puerto Ricans might be American citizens, but culturally they are a non-American entity. Name spelling has to do with culture, not with politics: the fact that the U.S. Congress decided to give American citizenship to Puerto Ricans, didn't do away with the fact that their names continue to be written with diacritical marks. (Refer to the oft-cited "'in' but not 'of' the United States".)
Mercy11 (talk) 04:19, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree with the oppose, the thing is, it really doesn't matter how Puerto Rico spells it or India spells it. The person in question may drop diacritics or add letters or whatever. What matters is how did he spell it in English. In his case, he kept the Puerto rican accents. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:58, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. All that matters here is how the name is commonly spelled in English. People tend to forget that "en.wikipedia.org" is just the English-language Wikipedia; it's not one overarching Wikipedia encompassing all of the world's languages. Ross Finlayson (talk) 06:12, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, English Wikipedia has an entry for the given name Raul, with interwiki links to six other Wikipedias. Among the names listed there are those with accented forms, such as Raúl Alfonsín from Argentina, and those with unaccented forms, such as Raul Salvatierra from Bolivia. English Wikipedia also has an entry for Julia (surname), with all of those listed there, except for the unnecessarily accented actor Raul Julia, appearing with unaccented surnames.
Ultimately, however, it is immaterial whether other men named Raul or Raúl are referenced with or without an accent, or even whether all Puerto Rican men named Raul must be indicated as Raúl. This discussion is about one specific Puerto Rico-born actor whose entire film and television career was on the English-language screen, whose stage name was Raul Julia, not Raúl Juliá, and who is listed as Raul Julia by all reliable sources, including his own gravestone.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 23:01, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
While I agree that most reliable sources (other than himself) spell his name as simply Raul Julia, lets not get carried away that ALL reliable sources do. Playbill Broadway database does not. The Golden Globes and Biography.com spell it both ways. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:48, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Even if Playbill database's use of the main title header Raúl Juliá might be due to the influence of the main header of his Wikipedia article, it is still surprising, taking into account that he had been credited as Raul Julia in his theatrical appearances, per the Internet Broadway database which uses Playbill as one of its sources. He was also credited as Raul Julia in his Off-Broadway performances, as confirmed by the Internet Off-Broadway database. As for the previously-mentioned Golden Globes website, as well as the websites for Emmy and all other awards that he received, all of those awards indicate being awarded to Raul Julia, not Raúl Juliá.
It is the main title header indicating his name as Raul Julia in the Emmy website and in the Biography.com website that is key evidence in the same manner that this entire discussion is about the main title header of his Wikipedia article. As in the lead sentences of his Emmy and Biography.com write-ups, it would be proper to specify in the lead sentence of his Wikipedia article that he is also referenced as Raúl Juliá. However, the key point revolves around each entry's main header and, other than the Playbill website, all main headers use Raul Julia, not Raúl Juliá.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 16:05, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • _?__ because he was P. Rican and his name was one thing in P.R. and something else in the U.S. Puerto Ricans have one name in the U.S. and another in P.R. A Note: If you change your settings on Google Language = Spanish - ALL Spanish speaking newspapers (in Mexico, Spain, etc.) say Raúl Juliá. The thing is if we go by number of sources using the marks I think the # of sources using the marks beat the number NOT using the marks. Should we bear in MIND that back then in the U.S. he couldn't really dictate how he wanted his name spelled, as an up and coming actor. How does his star on Hollywood spell it? He doesn't have a star yet.--the eloquent peasant (talk) 18:44, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How are Spanish newspapers relevant to English usage? --Khajidha (talk) 19:48, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, English wiki articles can have references of newspapers in other languages.--the eloquent peasant (talk) 20:09, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Other-language newspapers and Wikipedias have their own styles. If we check the Hungarian Wikipedia, we will find the stage names Lugosi Béla and Lukács Pál, not the familiar Bela Lugosi and Paul Lukas. If we check the Polish Wikipedia, we will find the stage name Ryszard Bolesławski, not Richard Boleslawski. This, however, is the English Wikipedia and Raul Julia was an English-language actor whose entire on-screen career was in English. All of his credits are in English and all indicate his stage name as Raul Julia, not as Raúl Juliá.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 20:56, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"English wiki articles can have references of newspapers in other languages." Not when the question is "what is English usage?" How a name is written in Spanish language sources is totally irrelevant to how it is written in English. --Khajidha (talk) 22:00, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

: Oppose because if someone spells my name wrong a million times in newspapers that doesn't make it my name. The fact that he signed his name with accents on autographs speaks volumes. I worked at a newspaper and editors weren't too worried about accent marks on names and at the time Julia was too busy making movies. He and his manager may have decided to not fight that battle with the name and let people spell it however they wanted. But his signature on autographs does speak volumes. That was his name, signed in the U.S., by his hand, so that should be respected. May he R.I.P.the eloquent peasant (talk) 23:14, 31 December 2018 (UTC) [reply]

And in his last movie Street Fighter, the credits said "for Raúl" so those who knew him best, knew how he spelled his name.--the eloquent peasant (talk) 00:17, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because I reread the entire thing again and read that en.wiki uses Stage Name for the heading. We know his real name was spelled with diacritic marks but if the en.wiki MOS says that actors wiki article name should use their Stage name, then Raul Julia it is. We can't change his stage name even if it differed from his real name. Happy New Year the eloquent peasant (talk) 01:43, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    While I don't think I'll change my opinion because of this, it is at least a reasonable reason for support. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:10, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per COMMONNAME and Roman Spinner, Level C, etc. pointing out we should be using his stage name which is referenced without diacritics in English reliable sources. Also because Mercy11 had no rebuttal to the refutation of their eloquent opposition argument, probably the strongest here. --В²C ☎ 18:48, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post move

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See User talk:StraussInTheHouse/Archive 2#Non-admin close of controversial RM for some further discussion. Andrewa (talk) 02:55, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2019_February for further discussion. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:08, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 August 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Raul Julia → Raúl Juliá – Restore to the stable title per local association, the same reasoning we use with Irish bios. The reason here is pretty simple, the suggestion that "Raul Julia" stripped of Spanish accents was a stage-name equivalent to Hungarian Béla Blaskó being known as Bela Lugosi in the US, doesn't fly, which makes a large part of the previous RM untenable. The main reason to treat as other Puerto Rican biographies can be seen in the article text : "In accordance with Julia's instructions, his body was transported to Puerto Rico. A state funeral was held in San Juan .... Julia was a lifelong supporter of the Puerto Rican independence movement" etc. This isn't an issue of counting film book sources with low MOS vs high MOS, this is an issue of personal local association. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Vpab15:, sorry serious and respectful question: do you require (A.) evidence from English sources which allow Spanish accents or (B.) evidence from English sources which do not allow Spanish accents? i.e. (A.) English sources which use Spanish accents for Mexican actors but not for Puerto Rican actors? (which would be a reasonable request) or (B.) do you mean count the appearance of the name without accents in books which do not have accents for anyone? I'm assuming that you mean (A.) the former? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I mean (A). There are quite a few actors and directors with Spanish names with accents, like Pedro Almodóvar, which appear with the accent in most English sources. Vpab15 (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay that's a reasonable request. The obvious one to check with would be Sônia Braga with whom he appeared at least twice: So by test (A.) Berumen 2016 p.191 "He has continued to play a diverse number of roles: a revolutionary in Sidney Pollack's Havana (1990) with Robert Redford and Raúl Juliá; a cop in The Rookie (1990) with Clint Eastwood, Raúl Juliá and Sônia Braga; " and B. Ruby Rich 2013 p.154 "Shot in Brazil and annexed to Hollywood through star performances by Raúl Juliá as the revolutionary and William Hurt as the movie-mad queen, plus Brazil's Sônia Braga as the femme fatale". Likewise per test (B.) in books with no Spanish accents both are without Spanish accents (of course). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

NYT mexico-world-cup-spanish-accent-marks

Regarding MOS saying the article should use the person's Stage Name doesn't apply here. Raul Julia was not his "Stage name". It was his real name which was simply being misspelled all along, as were the footballers names on their t-shirts. Thanks. The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 21:14, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose In general, our policy is to use the most common form in English language sources. When the most common form is borderline, I'm sympathetic to the approach of using an official title, but in this case it seems clear that reliable sources do not use the accents. If it was a matter of sources that never use accents not having it and ones that do including it it would be one thing, but this seems to be common throughout both. And given that the current name without accents seems to be the one on his grave in Puerto Rico, I'm less concerned about this being the "wrong" title.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yaksar WP:GRAVESTONE is not a guideline :). https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/576320083534734490/ the 7 members of the Juliá family are lying there with names carved in granite in capitals, as is often seen throughout the world given the difficulty to stonemasons of carving accents on capitals. Also Raúl Juliá did not carve his own gravestone so MOS:IDENTITY would attach more to signature
"Best" in English, with signature with Puerto Rican full accents in English, per infobox on article
in the infobox on the article. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh for sure -- if my comment came across as saying that the gravestone thing was a deciding factor then I should be clear I did not mean for it to be so. But it does help indicate that, at a sort of primary source level, the family did not consider the name without the accents to be some kind of unacceptable form. But I'll say on the flip side, that he signed his name with accents does the opposite, so I'll make it a weak !vote.--Yaksar (let's chat) 15:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Vpab15, Station1 and Yaksar. Unlike actors such as Sônia Braga, Penélope Cruz, Joanna Pacuła or Rade Šerbedžija, whose film and TV careers started in their native countries where they were credited on-screen with accents and/or diacritics, as well as entirely-English-language (at least on-screen) actors such as José Ferrer, Željko Ivanek or Elizabeth Peña whose on-screen billing has frequently depicted accents/diacritics, Raul Julia, despite his obvious given name, may not have wished to be typed as a Hispanic actor and, in his entirely-English-language on-screen career has not had, as far as can be determined, an accented name credit (a couple of rare exceptions may be possible at the start of his career). Thus it would be historically incorrect to render the main title header of his Wikipedia entry with his accented name. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Roman I'm sure you're right that racism and anti-hispanic feeling were something that Raúl Juliá faced throughout his career from 1971-1994. But the last years of his life were when he was increasingly active for Puerto Rican independence and hispanic culture. We're now in 2020. Anti-hispanic, and anti-Spanish accent and anti-Puerto-Rican sentiment should be, you'd think ancient history. So whether we benchmark this article to 1994, or to 2020, the fact that America was more racist and anti-hispanic in the 1970s and 1980s shouldn't really have a bearing on article titles for Puerto Rico biographies in 2020. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - it seems really weird to presume to know better than Raul himself how to spell his own name in English Red Slash 22:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I believe what she said in the NYT bit: "In time, she learned that omitting the accents on capital letters was a practice that carried over from the limitations of typewriters back in the day..." I believe not only typewriters, but journalists had limitations in spelling Spanish names back in the day. On autograph/s he signed "Best, Raúl Juliá". Also in his last film it had the diacritic marks. But if we just remember that he was a nice man and a great actor - I'm happy with that. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 13:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per the previous RM, the common spelling of his name is reflected in the current article title. There is no indication that anything has changed since then, so I don't see the point of relitigating the issue here. -- Calidum 16:37, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per previous RM. Whether Julia supported Puerto Rican Independence or not has absolutely no relevance to his name or how he was known. And the stage name argument absolutely matters, more so if anything - if we're willing to acknowledge differences of an entire words like in the Bela Lugosi / Béla Blaskó example, then of course smaller and more subtle changes are potentially okay as well. SnowFire (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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