Template talk:Infobox school/Archive 7

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Template-protected edit request on 14 March 2020

Pigsonthewing has boldly added an etymology parameter but no discussion has taken place — whether this parameter is needed and if we should have one, where it should be located in the infobox. Can this please be reverted so discussion can take place. Thanks Steven (Editor) (talk) 19:56, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Don't really see the need to revert, although when someone asks for discussion, that in itself is good reason to talk about it. The need seems to be for showing the origin of the school name in this ibox. And since etymology is usually one of the first things we come to in an article, it would be expected to be one of the first things listed and seen in this ibox. Do you have any specific objections to the addition? P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 20:36, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
PS. Am removing the etp template from the table and category, since there is controversy, and discussion should take place before the etp template is used. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 20:44, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
That isn't essential summary information that belongs in an infobox. ElKevbo (talk) 21:57, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
At a minimum, the documentation should say that a sourced explanation of the etymology must appear in the article for it to be included in the infobox. We get a lot of unsourced nonsense inserted into infoboxes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Admin note a bold change has been contested, with a few in support of reversion, so I am going to do so until consensus says otherwise. Primefac (talk) 14:46, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I object to this reversion, and in particular the basis for it. "no discussion" is not a reason to revert, as any Wikipedia editor should know. The OP was asked "Do you have any specific objections to the addition?" and has not provided any. This is most certainly "essential summary information that belongs in an infobox", and the parameter is in use in a number of articles already. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:07, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Andy, I will absolutely agree with you that the initial request had no reason, but multiple editors have since expressed specific concerns, and given that there was no discussion before the change was made it is enough to revert until consensus is reached. Primefac (talk) 15:13, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
"Multiple editors" have not since objected to the change: one has commented on the need for referencing, with a suggested change to the template's documentation. Another singular, editor claims the datum is not "essential", while offering no argument to support that. This is balanced - indeed, outweighed - by an editor who supported inclusion, giving sound reasons. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:19, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) To editor Andy: can we see some examples of ...and the parameter is in use in a number of articles already? My concern is that some editors might get too verbose precise with their descriptions of etymology in the ibox, especially over time. I'd like to see how concise these ibox descriptions are. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 15:21, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
There is no verbosity, and no need for it: Kingsmeadow Community Comprehensive School; Hamstead Hall Academy; Great Barr School; Barr Beacon School; Joseph Leckie Academy; St Francis of Assisi Catholic Technology College; Dame Elizabeth Cadbury Technology College. Here are over 4.8K other potential values. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:31, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
As long as they are kept as short and sweet as a link to an origin article, as in these examples, then I have no further concerns about the parameter. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 15:57, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
It's completely reasonable to insist on a discussion about a new parameter for a template used in thousands of articles. Your opinion doesn't count for more than other editors'. ElKevbo (talk) 15:47, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
It is indeed completely reasonable to start (or even to "insist on") a discussion; that is not disputed. However, it is not reasonable to revet a perfectly good (and good faith) edit solely on the basis of no discussion having yet taken place. If you can point to anywhere where I claimed that my opinion counts for more than other editors', then please do so. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Do not add. I don't find this information something that is a "key fact" that should be included in the infobox which is meant to be a summary of the article. I find etymology to be trivial in most cases. This infobox is already very long adding something that is usually redundant (e.g. John F. Kennedy High School is named after John F. Kennedy is not sufficiently helpful to the average reader. MB 16:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
    • What he said. Content in an infobox should be limited to single word (or very short phrase) and numerical data. It's for quick reference. By definition, etymology requires explanation. If you have to –explain something, inclusion in the infobox is inappropriate. Rarely if at all can this occur regarding etymology. It's clutter. John from Idegon (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
    • It will be very helpful to the average user. It is never redundant. What about those readers who do not know who John F. Kennedy is? Unlike you, our "average reader" does not live in the United States. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:03, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
      • Those readers, if that interested, can click on the John F. Kennedy link in the text where this is discussed. You seem to be missing the point. Etymology is not helpful to the average reader looking at the infobox for a summary of the key aspects of the school. It is clutter that gets in the way of seeing "key" information. MB 21:17, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
        • Etymology is helpful to the average reader looking at the infobox for a summary of the key aspects of the school. It is key information. It is not clutter. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
  • I am not entirely sure I support this parameter, but even if I don't, |named after= is much clearer as to the expectation of the field. --Izno (talk) 22:12, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
    • I could support this, if you include an edit note requiring a wikilink. Andy seems to be missing or discounting the point that infobox clutter is a recognized issue on Wikipedia, and the field he added invites it. Even an entire sentence with a source is too much data for one parameter. It would be great if it could be kept brief. But the fact that someone has done it in a few instances is not indicative that it's needed, or that it can be added in an uncluttering way. Keep in mind that the typical editor on a school article is a student at the subject school. But the simple fact is, schools that are named after someone or something (as opposed to say, Boise High School) aren't always named after something notable. There isn't space in the infobox to discuss a non notable etymology. If it can be covered by a wikilink for data, so the details can be left in another article, it's workable. Without that, it's not. We are already putting too much info into the infobox. It doesn't need more. Especially for a datapoint best covered in prose. John from Idegon (talk) 00:03, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
      • John seems to be missing or discounting the point that if someone or something has a school named after them, they're probably notable. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 09:06, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
        • [citation needed], Pigsonthewing, that statement is factually incorrect. At least in the US (home to most of the schools this template is on), schools are commonly named after beloved educators, local administrators, and not infrequently, after the person who donated the money or land to build the school, none of whom would likely be notable. John from Idegon (talk) 04:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
I don't see any value in this parameter and the other editors have pretty much said what I would have said. Andy, you said "The OP was asked 'Do you have any specific objections to the addition?' and has not provided any." I have only just come on to Wikipedia, you have not given me time to reply. You said "the parameter is in use in a number of articles already" — no articles had the etymology parameter, the articles that do have it were all added by you — it does look like this has been done to suit your preference, e.g. you came to an article, wanted to add etymology and then realised it wasn't supported, then added it to the infobox. Anyway, the infobox is already huge, many schools are named after things (places, people, saints) which can be explained and cited in the body of the article, and not to mention there are 6 free labels available (too many I believe, but yeah). Steven (Editor) (talk) 21:05, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
"no articles had the etymology parameter, the articles that do have it were all added by you" These two statements are clearly contradictory. Virtually verything in the infobox can - and indeed should be - "explained and cited in the body of the article". If that is a reason not to include data, then you will be left with {{Authority control}} for schools. Free labels are unsuitable, especially for data where we have ~5K values avaialble. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:26, 17 March 2020 (UTC)
  • It seems to me entirely appropriate and useful to provide this information in an infobox. The proposed change meets exactly the purpose of infoboxes ("summary of some unifying aspect that the articles share and sometimes to improve navigation to other interrelated articles" at Help:Infobox). The information meets the test at Help:Infobox#What_should_an_infobox_contain? and is not excluded by the test at Help:Infobox#What_should_an_infobox_not_contain?. The information also seems to be consonant with infobox guidelines - Is the field of value? and Will the field be relevant to many of the articles that will use the infobox? I appreciate those who do not value etymology, but hope they will acknowledge those of us who do find this information of value. Wikipedia arguably worked better when it follows guidelines including objective tests such as, in this case, utility and relevancy, rather than being some sort of Lord of the Flies style parade of personal preferences/prejudices. Per Izno's comment, named_after might be a better parameter than etymology, for the reason that it invites a concise link to the object after which the school is named, rather than an explanation. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:12, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
  • It's not about valuing or not valuing etymology, it's about whether this is the best place to put it. No one's suggesting excluding etymology from articles entirely. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:31, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
    • Nice straw man. User:Tagishsimon's entire post is about including the information in the infobox. Which is, of course, the best (but not only) place to put it - just like the other key data points. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:36, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

To summarize...

This is completely inappropriate. A participant in the discussion has no role in determining consensus. Let the admins do their job. John from Idegon (talk) 04:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Note: if any editor thinks their summarized comment and name should be in a different group, do feel free to transfer and alter as appropriate. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 17:27, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Support:
    • Andy Mabbett, originator of the etymology parameter
    • "As long as they are kept as short and sweet as a link to an origin article, as in these examples, then I have no further concerns about the parameter." Paine Ellsworth, myself
    • "It seems to me entirely appropriate and useful to provide this information in an infobox." Tagishsimon, with support for Izno's suggestion below
  • Oppose:
    • "That isn't essential summary information that belongs in an infobox." ElKevbo
    • "Do not add. I don't find this information something that is a 'key fact' that should be included in the infobox..." MB
    • "What [MB] said. Content in an infobox should be limited to single word (or very short phrase) and numerical data." John from Idegon
    • "I don't see any value in this parameter and the other editors have pretty much said what I would have said." Steven (Editor), opener of this reversion request
    • Better discussed in detail in article text. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:40, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Neutral:
    • "I am not entirely sure I support this parameter, but even if I don't, |named after= is much clearer as to the expectation of the field." Izno
      • Parameter is supported by John from Idegon, Paine Ellsworth and Tagishsimon
    • "At a minimum, the documentation should say that a sourced explanation of the etymology must appear in the article for it to be included in the infobox. We get a lot of unsourced nonsense inserted into infoboxes." Jonesey95

Hope that's everybody. To understand the full substance of this, the discussion above is essential reading. My involvement precludes my "official" assessment of consensus, which with the effective rebuttals I (unofficially) see as roughly something like "use the parameter in the infobox with a rename to |named_after=" (please pay no attention to that). I would ask Primefac to return for the official consensus check. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 16:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Seen and noted, was hoping to get to this tonight but life got in the way. Tomorrow? Primefac (talk) 01:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
    • So are you going to close this, Primefac? Just to be clear, I oppose the OP's proposal. With proper edits to documentation, I would support the alternate proposed parameters. John from Idegon (talk) 01:35, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
    • Here's a lifeline: there ain't no deadline. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 03:33, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
      • Here's a clue: when the community gave him the mop, we assumed he can assess a consensus. So why are you doing it for him? It's unneeded and frankly clouds the whole process. You cannot unsee things. John from Idegon (talk) 03:56, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
        • To editor John from Idegon: I'm sorry you think it's not appropriate. I've summarized many times in the past and you're the first who thinks it's inappropriate. Primefac is one of the best admins and editors on Wikipedia, and rather than having them sift through the above discussion and then spend the time to write their own summary, I just tried to help save them some time. Just trying to help, Mr. John, just trying to help. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. put'r there 20:46, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Between the ten or so people who have opined one way or the other here, I really see no consensus on whether to add a |named_after= parameter (as that is one thing most agreed on was that was a better name). Those for this parameter think it is important information to be included. Those opposed either felt that it was not an important piece of information (but should still be included in the body of the text), or that it had the potential to be filled with frivolous or unreferenced content, or that the infobox is too long already and the information was not important enough to merit addition. There are reasonable concerns and justifications on both sides of the discussion, and no one "side" was entirely refuted. If those in favour of adding this text believe this parameter is worth adding, I see no prejudice against opening this up as a full RFC to garner more more opinions and potentially reach a consensus. Primefac (talk) 01:46, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Address

I've noticed a few infoboxes with what appears to be an orphaned header "Address". An example is MacKillop Catholic College, Palmerston. Irrawang High School does not have this. The MacKillop example looks rather strange with "Address" directly under the school name and followed by a location map showing the entire Northern Territory. The heading looks fine at Rock Bridge High School where there is no map but even more strange in Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet where the map has a caption. The map caption should be below the locator map caption if it's really needed at all. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:58, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Post Code

Since the merge of {{Infobox UK school}} there is a problem on some pages as the two part post code is wrapped. Could a {{nowrap}} be added to the postcode parameter? Keith D (talk) 17:57, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Please always provide links to pages with problems when you report template issues. On the assumption that I know what you are talking about, I have tweaked the sandbox to add nowrap to the postal code. Please see this test case for the change. Is that what you want? – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:43, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
Example would be here. The test cast looks like it fixes the problem. Thanks. Keith D (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 Done. Let me know if the problem is still there, or if I have caused any new problems; I was unable to make the post code in that article wrap on my screen, but differences in font size and rendering will show different things to different viewers. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for doing that. I had put a {{nowrap}} template in that article so would not show on the latest version. Keith D (talk) 10:41, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

LAESTAB dfeeno

I am still whinging on about the lack of this parameter for UK schools. For state schools it is duplicated in the URN- but not for private/public schools.In AfD we were discussing Reigate St Mary's School. This school is private and has no URN, and thus no Ofsted link. Private schools are regulated/inspected by the Independent Schools Inspectorate who produce Ofsted style detailed reports Reigate St Mary's School Inspection. The way to move from the dfee number to this report is not obvious- at least it is available in free text when the URN is not,GIAS finds the school on the LAESTAB but not name [1] (it has now been subsumed into Reigate Grammar (private)) which does have an URN and the redirect works. So can the LAESTAB parameter be restored please- linked or unlinked. ClemRutter (talk) 08:57, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Translation

This template ( called फलकम्:Infobox school there) is not translated properly on the sa-WP as can be seen on this page. I asked for help regarding the same in Teahouse and I was asked to offer help in fixing this up on the talk page. It would be nice if someone could direct me regarding the same. --User:श्रीमान २००२ (User talk:श्रीमान २००२) 10:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

This is a fascinating problem, but not one that many of us can help with- yet. This is the correct place to start the discussion. Firstly can you tell us what is mistranslated. As a starting point I looked at sa:फलकम्:Infobox school/doc सम्पाद्यते. Copy the content over to a new page Template:Infobox school/sanscrit and put comments about each of the fields so we know what we are discussing. Looking at the examples you have given it is unclear what needs to be in Sanscrit, and which in English. There will also be missing fields- fields that are only relevant in the Indian context. --ClemRutter (talk) 12:30, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
@ClemRutter: I created the page and added a handful of translation. Should I add translation to all parameters in this format? --User:श्रीमान २००२ (User talk:श्रीमान २००२) 09:31, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be on the template page in the Sanskrit Wikipedia instead of here? Also note that this infobox has undergone changes over the years, other Wikipedia versions may not have the same infobox/parameter set. Steven (Editor) (talk) 23:50, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

"Website" field of infobox uses plainlink

I have a question concerning the "Website" field of this infobox (see label169, class169, data169).

Is there a reason the "Website" section of the infobox formats the link as a plain link? I would have expected it to be formatted as an external link (if, of course, the link is to an external website and not to a page concerning the history of the school's website or something). For example, when entering a link to some external site example.com/school, the website in the infobox displays as example.com/school, rather than example.com/school.

I feel like external sites on Wikipedia typically have the external site symbol next to them, so I was wondering if there is a reason for formatting this typically-external link as a plain link. Thanks! Palindromesemordnilap (talk) 22:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

The documentation says to format the website by using {{url}}, which will display it as an external link. Most infoboxes are like this, although some do the EL formatting internally. Whenever I run across a school infobox with a plain link, I just fix it with {{url}} per the documentation. MB 00:03, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
@MB: when I type {{url|example.com/school}} in the infobox, the link still displays as a plain link rather than as an external link. Is this the way that the documentation says I should be able to format the link to get the "external link" symbol, or am I misunderstanding the documentation?
For an example of an infobox that does not display the "external link" symbol in the infobox when using the style {{url|example.com/school}}, refer to the infobox for Concord High School (Delaware). Let me know what I should do to display the "external link" symbol for this URL in its infobox (and for other school infobox URLs like it). Thanks for your help with this! Palindromesemordnilap (talk) 00:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
Per the note above, does anyone have any suggestions for getting the external link symbol to appear in the website field of this infobox when an external link is provided in the website field?
From my understanding, this issue was encountered before (see Talk:Plain links?). At that time, a user solved the issue by modifying the template, but the issue appears to have come up again as a result of some merges of templates to get the current template. Please let me know if you'd like any additional information, and thanks for your help. Palindromesemordnilap (talk) 21:31, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 15 September 2020

  • Information to be added or removed: remove line | class169 = plainlinks
  • Explanation of issue: This line causes external links entered in the "website" field of an infobox to display as plain links rather than as external links. The user cannot even force the link to display as an external link; it will display as a plain link. The EL symbol is used beside links to external websites in all other infoboxes I've seen, except for this one, so making this change will help to unify style across infoboxes. (See examples of external link symbols beside website URLs at Infobox university (Harvard), Infobox company (Google).)
  • References supporting change: You can find additional discussion regarding the need to make this change at: talk link 1, talk link 2. For an example of a school infobox without the external link symbol beside the website URL, see Concord High School (Delaware).

Thanks for your help, and don't hesitate to contact me with any questions/concerns! palindrome§ǝɯoɹpuᴉןɐd 00:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

No opposition and no one has suggested any other method so  Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 06:54, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

/doc page updates

@Steven (Editor):

In regards to removing the 'type:edu' from the examples, it is because the infobox school template automatically adds that parameter to all coord templates that are within the infobox. See: Template:Infobox school/doc#Parameters, under the description for coord: "type:edu is automatically added, unless a different type is specified." Here is the exact code from the template, note |type:edu within the code:
| label4 = [[Geographic coordinate system|Coordinates]] | data4 = {{#if: {{{coordinates|}}} | {{#invoke:Coordinates|coordinsert|{{{coordinates|}}}|type:edu}}{{{coordinates_footnotes|}}}}}
So, the type:edu should not be in the instructions or blank template examples, but region: should still be included.
Secondly, instead of removing the UK teaching staff example, because, as you stated in the comments, one shouldn't use a primary source, why not add a source for the UK schools that would qualify as a good source, so that we American editors would know where to look?
Thirdly, I don't know the reasoning behind removing the "enrollment_as_of" or "enrolment_as_of" parameter, but I'm glad to see it in at least the Australian example, as a different way to show the years. Funandtrvl (talk) 21:13, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Hello Funandtrvl, ah the reason I added it was because all of the schools I've edited so far have "type:edu" in the coord template. I totally forgot that it was embedded into the template haha, nice! As for UK staff, the staff parameter isn't really filled in for the schools because I think originally the Department for Education URN link page had the staff details but no longer shows it. Whereas for US schools, the National Center for Education Statistics page has the staff details on the same page as the enrollment data. I removed the as of parameter because it is a bit redundant — it simply adds the year in brackets next to enrollment when it is easier to do it manually and eliminates the need for another parameter. A discussion will take place at some point on the potential removal of this parameter, but I have noticed some school articles use it and some don't. Hope this helps, Steven (Editor) (talk) 22:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
@Steven (Editor): I appreciate your explanation! I looked at the UK URN page, and they do have the # of teachers, FTE, and ratio, etc., but they have buried it on the 4th tab labeled "Workforce and finance". So, we could add that info with a ref for URN, in the future. It would be helpful in the example, as I really didn't know where to look for that info, and there are probably others too that are in the same quandary. I agree that most people would use the 'type:edu' in the coord template, as it isn't consistent to which templates have it built into the code. Most people would assume that it's not in the code. Also, the only reason I can think of to have 2 different parameters, one for enrollment and one for enrollment year, would be if there were a future bot to be used to sort the schools, for some reason, into categories by enrollment size. If there is only one value in a field, it would be sortable; if there are 2 values [enrollment and year], then, it is a little more complicated to sort that in a code for a bot. There is already the problem of wikilinking the country in the country field, which causes problems in the coding, that is way too complicated for me to comprehend. Cheers, Funandtrvl (talk) 23:10, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Mapframe maps

I have added mapframe mapping capability to the sandbox, following the Mapframe maps in infoboxes RFC. Per that RFC, location within the infobox is a matter for local consensus - currently I have put it after the pushpin map, near the top of the infobox. There is also the possibility for the infobox to specify default values when mapframe- parameters are not specified. Currently I have set the default marker symbol to "school". - Evad37 [talk] 00:23, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

I've been waiting for this, thanks Evad37. I gave it a test and it appears at the top which looks nice, a default zoom is needed as it is too far at present. But having mapframe with pushpin map together definitely doesn't look nice haha — wlll be starting a discussion after consensus of mapframe location and its default values have been determined, on the removal of pushpin maps altogether in favour of using mapframe only. Will mapframe be shown automatically, noticed it's like this for some other infoboxes, with the option to turn it off on a per article basis via parameter? Steven (Editor) (talk) 04:02, 14 October 2020 (UTC) Modified comment 04:57, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
That is possible, the automatic display of mapframe maps, but there wasn't consensus on that issue at the RFC. (Other infoboxes had the automation implemented prior to the RFC.) I wouldn't want to implement it here without a strong local consensus. - Evad37 [talk] 23:52, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
I would love for the "school" icon to be the default, Evad! User:Steven (Editor) I'm OK if mapframe replaces pushpin entirely since the infobox would be cluttered, so long as mapframe allows a zoomout. WhisperToMe (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Implementation and removal of pushpin maps proposal

Hi WhisperToMe, I agree the "school" icon should be the default. I'm proposing the following if you could please let me know on your thoughts and to anyone else interested:

  • The default marker symbol is "school" — this can be overridden using the parameter |mapframe-marker=
  • The default zoom is 13 (if it should be zoomed more or less, please suggest but I found this amount of zoom to be ok) — this can be overridden using the parameter |mapframe-zoom=. Noting that despite the default zoom, mapframe has plus and minus buttons in the top left that allow you to zoom in and out. There is also a button in the top right that allows you to view the map in full screen which looks really nice
  • The mapframe-wikidata is set to yes as default so that it shows the shape/line features from the wikidata item, if any, when |coord= is set — this can be overridden using the parameter |mapframe-wikidata=No
  • Mapframe is shown automatically on all school articles that have coordinates. This prevents the need to manually add a mapframe and allow for consistency — this can be overridden using the parameter |mapframe=No
  • Pushpin maps to be removed from the template completely in favour of mapframe — having mapframe with pushpin map together doesn't look nice and the infobox would be cluttered (there are also three images that are already displayed at the top — logo, seal and image). Mapframe is better because it is interactive unlike pushpin maps, can be zoomed in and out and viewed in full screen. Another reason is for consistency — mapframes are the same size (can be overridden using dedicated parameters but redundant to full screen viewing) whereas pushpin maps are different sizes depending on the map, with some being small and some huge which look terrible in the infobox

Please see this example of what the mapframe will look like with all the default options above set (had to do it manually with parameters as the defaults have not been set yet) — note the colour of the marker is the pre-set default colour, should we change this? I think this colour is ok but it can be overridden anyway using dedicated parameters. Besides these defaults, mapframe can be customized in the article to suit your preferences; see this list of parameters available. Steven (Editor) (talk) 19:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

It seems the buttons to zoom in and out of the map appear only when you click on the map or the button in the top right to view it in full screen. But when viewing the article in preview mode, the zoom in/out buttons are there (where the map is not in full screen). Evad37 is this how it's supposed to be or a bug? Steven (Editor) (talk) 20:06, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
It's a bit of both: it is a bug that preview is different than the saved page, but it's done intentionally for performance reasons. See Q3 of Module talk:Mapframe/FAQ for further info/links. - Evad37 [talk] 21:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
I see, that makes sense, at least visitors can still zoom in and out which is good. Just waiting now for others to comment on the proposal Steven (Editor) (talk) 21:25, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Agree with all items WhisperToMe (talk) 21:35, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

  • Sorry if I came late to the party Brilliant suggestions all round. I have been an enthusiastic user of 'module = OSM Location map' see look at St John Fisher Catholic School to see one in action. It is a two site school that needed to be situated on a 'busy' base map. A lot of time was spent on balancing the captions so they didn't overwrite data on the map. I did try different centres and scales. I would want to overwrite the default marker with the red-dot that looks cleaner here. Provision needs to be made for multiple site institution The final code was:
 | module ={{OSM Location map
 | float = centre
 | width = 250
 | coord = {{coord|51.3805|0.5174}} <!-- Centred -->
 | mark-coord = {{coord|51.3775|0.5174}} | label = St John Fisher Catholic School| label-pos = top
 | mark-coord1 = {{coord|51.372559| 0.521114}} | label1 = Lower School| label-pos1 = top
 | zoom = 13}} <!-- marking the school-->

The Judd School is a far simpler case, the site conveniently to the left of maptext. I find the grey splodge for the limit to the grounds as unsightly- useful on enlargement but not necessary in the default.

I have just been doing a de-stubbing binge. While we are looking for perfection, schools articles are often the first attempt of a newby editor, so a simple automatic map switched on by the |coordinates= is a real bonus- and a head ache if the new page patrol can't easily tweak a few parameters. Pushpin_maps should remain as a feature while they are common elsewhere- but will not fire when OSM maps or mapframe is present. OSM maps should overwrite the default mapframe.ClemRutter (talk) 00:12, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi ClemRutter, please clarify what you meant by "grey splodge for the limit to the grounds as unsightly". I remember suggesting to you about using OSM Location map in the module parameter for schools with multiple campuses. There are disadvantages of using this template, it doesn't embed well in the infobox and you should see what it looks like on mobile devices (doesn't look nice). Maps for schools with multiple campuses has been an issue for this infobox — a problem we have with the current pushpin maps. Not all templates have pushpin maps, do you see any value in retaining pushpin maps? I don't see them as being useful and does the same job as mapframe, only difference being that mapframe is better with more functionality.
Speaking of mapframe, have some good news for you, you no longer need to use the module parameter with the OSM Location map. In the list of parameters I linked above for customising the mapframe maps, there is a parameter called |mapframe-custom= which per the doc says: "Use a custom map instead of the automatic mapframe. Specify either a Maplink template, or another template that generates a mapframe map, or an image name. If used, the subsequent mapframe parameters will be ignored." Using this parameter and the {{Maplink}} template, which embeds better in the infobox, please see the result in the St John Fisher Catholic School article you mentioned (you will have to click edit to see the parameters I used). These mapframe maps being implemented has solved the problem for schools with multiple campuses. For the purpose of this example, I used two markers: one with school and the other with number "2" (you can use circle too and change colour etc. — you'll need to look at the Maplink template for customization options). Pinging WhisperToMe to let them know. Steven (Editor) (talk) 06:27, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
I totally approve of the changes to St John Fisher Catholic School. Scratch the comment on splodges. Pushpin-maps were useful because of their speed, and on the shire counties Sackville School, East Grinstead and the London fringe they clarified which council provided the services. Harris Academy Chafford Hundred (stub/start class)- I will happily lose that marginal gain for the benefits of universal mapframes. I edited Carlton le Willows Academy- a GA without a map- it has one now.
The blue marker is fine, the symbol could be used for both sites at SJF, they are both schools and if you are interested in which is the main campus the hover over title will be displayed. The symbol may seem a bit naff for sixth-form colleges- but as it is changeable this is a problem for the documentation not the coding.ClemRutter (talk) 09:26, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm glad you approve and I see, in terms of speed I think it will be faster with mapframe due to it appearing automatically — the user doesn't need to add a parameter and specify which map to use, they only have to provide the coordinates and it'll appear straight away. Awesome and that's true, not only hover over title, you can also click on the marker to reveal the title — if you're using that custom template, you can add an optional description that'll appear under the title when you click on the marker. Yeah the symbol may not be ideal for sixth form colleges that also use this infobox, but by making use of the dedicated category, we can go through these articles and override the marker to something else which I'm happy to do (there is a range of symbols so we'll need to decide which is best but this can be discussed later). Steven (Editor) (talk) 17:48, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
Evad37, can this proposal be implemented? It's been a week and no objections, please let me know, thanks Steven (Editor) (talk) 05:18, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
@Steven (Editor): I've updated the sandbox per the above. If you can you check that the new version works as expected on a few articles, and then if its all good I'll make the edit to the live template - Evad37 [talk] 23:25, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Evad37, please see The Judd School and St John Fisher Catholic School (using mapframe-custom) — both working perfectly. I checked a few other articles in different countries using preview and not had any issues. This is ready to go Steven (Editor) (talk) 02:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Slight snag - error messages are showing up on the testcases page. Will have to investigate when I have some time. - Evad37 [talk] 08:31, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Evad37, strangely the error message only appears on the testcases page and not on the articles themselves? On any school article, the mapframe works perfectly — I copied The Judd School infobox and went to the testcases page, deleted everything on the testcases page, paste this infobox there and clicked on preview, error message is shown. This is strange Steven (Editor) (talk) 18:50, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I've found the problem, I knew it had something to do with Wikidata — I went to the sandbox and removed the mapframe-wikidata=yes from the default, then previewed the sandbox on the testcases page using "Preview page with this template" at the bottom, the mapframe works. As this is a testcases page it is unable to pull anything from Wikidata so this is ok? Steven (Editor) (talk) 19:32, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I think it might be a good idea to remove the mapframe-wikidata=yes as a default for now which can be easily added back another time. The reason why is because I'm just thinking of the school articles that may not have a listing on Wikidata, and I checked the schools that are in the draftspace and you get the same error message as the testcases. I think a rule needs to be added to ignore Wikidata if it doesn't exist and once this is done, then mapframe-wikidata=yes can be added back so the infobox doesn't show this error message? Steven (Editor) (talk) 20:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
The lack of a wikidata item does seem to be the problem. I'll take a look at fixing it in the Infobox mapframe module - Evad37 [talk] 02:39, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@Steven (Editor):  Fixed in the module, and so I've  updated this template to implement mapframe maps. I've added the mapframe parameters to the documentation, but probably needs some further cleanup there. - Evad37 [talk] 03:11, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Awesome, thanks Evad37 and I'll tidy the documentation :) Steven (Editor) (talk) 03:16, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Looks nice to me. I will watch how it looks in my recent edits, and how the documentation is holding up. Thanks.ClemRutter (talk) 23:09, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

How to handle improper coordinates?

About 90 schools are showing errors, see articles with script errors. Example: Quest to Learn. I think it's because they have a coordinates parameter, but it is not properly formatted (not using {{coord}}) so the module tries to do arithmetic with values that it can't get. I'm hoping someone has tools to help fix the articles. Johnuniq (talk) 09:44, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I've turned off the default mapframe for articles without proper coordinates, to prevent the script errors. These articles will be tracked in Category:Pages using infobox school with coordinates not using the Coord template so they can be fixed. - Evad37 [talk] 10:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
I showed pity on Sekolah Menengah Kebangsaan Subang Jaya from the list: they even gave the Latitude in the lead. Sure enough it was a format error. As there wasn't much to lose, I added |mapframe-zoom = 10 to the infobox and that worked too. The parameters there are all over the place- but I placed it under |coordinates . This seems to me to be a parameter we need to use a lot, with the obvious consequences. ClemRutter (talk) 12:53, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Evad37, the category is now empty, going forward, would it be best to keep this added code and category, or no longer needed? Steven (Editor) (talk) 03:29, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
I think we might as well leave it for the moment, and the category can be occasionally checked to see if there have been any more incorrect usages of coordinates. If in the future there are problems with template or Lua limits, then it can be removed. - Evad37 [talk] 06:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Sounds good Steven (Editor) (talk) 21:20, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

How to handle coordinates defined out side the infobox?

I just had a look at Hallfield Primary School the notable listed building. There was a large gap awaiting a map, the co-ordinate line was in External Links- I moved it into the box, and still a large gap. I added display=title,inline and it is working. Look at the edit history to see how it was rendering. ClemRutter (talk) 16:42, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

this version shows an empty mapframe box. It looks like the code that invokes the mapframe needs to check for coordinates in the infobox before displaying the mapframe box. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
I think that may have been a glitch with the Kartographer extension rather than the infobox or module. The module does check that it has coordinates, either from the infobox parameter or from Wikidata, and will not attempt to show a map without them. If you click the empty space a full-screen map is shown, so I think the extension just hadn't yet generated a thumbnail image of the map. In the past when this has happened, a few purges and/or null edits seemed to fix it. - Evad37 [talk] 22:49, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Context

Is there anyway of having some small map of the country/county placed in a corner of the map to give you some quick glance context to show where you are? Even going into full screen, you need to zoom out considerably to get some context for the map. Keith D (talk) 23:33, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

I think that the default zoom level may be too close-up. I edited about 20 or 30 articles to fix coord problems today, and every time I loaded a mapframe map, I had to zoom out to see where I was in the world, or even in a state/province or country. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:52, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
@Keith D: I'm working on implementing overlay (corner) maps in Module:Mapframe/sandbox. See Template:Maplink/testcases/overlays for demos of what I've done so far. - Evad37 [talk] 09:13, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the note. Of the testcases the overlay without the repeat of the source detail is best. Keith D (talk) 13:15, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for the work so far. True, on each of the articles I have returned to I have been tempted to revise the scale- I have also been tempted to shift the map centre-point so it includes a meaningful label to help orientation. As it stands I find the mini-maps in the examples visually confusing. Is it technically possible to make them appear on a cursor-rollover? If we are looking at this being a default, I see difficulties in predicting which map to use and which scale to use. --ClemRutter (talk) 14:16, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Script errors

The addition of this feature is causing script errors on several pages, such as Norman S. Edelcup/Sunny Isles Beach K-8. Here's a minimized example: {{Infobox school|coordinates={{Coord|25.94479|-80.12314|display=inline,title}}}} Interestingly, while this example fails on that article, it works fine on other pages, such as the sandbox. It's not immediately clear to me what the problem is. @Evad37: ping. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:28, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Jackmcbarn That's really strange, but it does say the issue is in Module:Mapframe. Steven (Editor) (talk) 03:02, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
I think it's a problem in how Module:Mapframe parses coordinates from geohack urls, doing some testing now with various template/module sandboxes - Evad37 [talk] 03:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
For testing, I removed the Coord template from that article to see if the mapframe will work by allowing it to use coordinates from Wikidata and it works, strange. Btw, you're doing a good job with these mapframes Steven (Editor) (talk) 03:12, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
 Fixed in Module:Mapframe, and the article is now working. (The parsing of locally-specified urls from coord templates is different to how wikidata coordinates are parsed, so that's why the removal made the map work) - Evad37 [talk] 03:44, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
Evad37, I see, thanks for fixing this Steven (Editor) (talk) 06:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Problem when short description includes ref tags

When the parameter values used for the short description include ref tags, the short description is corrupted, as can be see in these 200 articles. The short description looks like:

Secondary school mixed school?'"`uniq--ref-00000000-qinu`"'? school in Zimbabwe

It looks like ref tags need to be stripped from those values, either manually in each of the articles, or in {{Infobox school/short description}}. Pinging Trialpears. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:31, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jonesey95, thanks for letting us know of the issue. These will be sorted out manually, there shouldn't be references in these parameters, sourcing the type should be in the lead. Steven (Editor) (talk) 15:49, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
While they shouldn't have references to begin with this is quite a bad failure mode. I've attempted a simple find and replace fix, but it isn't optimal since I've found cases where it didn't work and it leaves control characters in the text which could behave weirdly and don't play nicely with lua. I'll take another look when the list of issues has been refreshed to see why it doesn't always work. --Trialpears (talk) 07:10, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
See this discussion that I started. I think {{short description}} needs to be smarter. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Looks like it fixed for now. The weird thing is that only Infobox school seems to be affected. Do the others do something to prevent this already? --Trialpears (talk) 12:35, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
It could very well be that infobox school is the only one that uses the logic you've employed to determine the shortdesc. For example, I set a very simple shortdesc for {{infobox country at games}}, which isn't reliant on any input (mostly because I was feeling lazy... I might get around to improving it later). Primefac (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Could be, although I feel like {{Infobox Settlement}} and {{Infobox royalty}} should have the same problem. It would be weirder to put a reference for the fields used there though so maybe no one has? --Trialpears (talk) 13:06, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
The short answer is yes - settlement's module and royalty's subtemplate strip out references. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
How does {{Infobox royalty/short description}} work then? I made it and can't remember or see anything that would strip them out. --Trialpears (talk) 13:22, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Looks like {{#invoke:String|match|s={{delink|1={{{1|}}}}}|pattern=[^<{;]*|nomatch=}} looks for the first full string that doesn't contain what one could consider to be potential "reference" or the non-useful parameters <{; and returns that value. Primefac (talk) 15:10, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

County and U.S. schools

 – To garner further attention from interested editors and a better place for this discussion. Steven (Editor) (talk) 18:58, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

United Kingdom school example

Houston we have problem. By consensus we use The Judd School as an example- but we are displaying a dated infobox with no logo that no longer syncs, I have tried a fix on the other site. Further more, the code that is the most obtuse is that relating to mapframes and {{maplink}}s which does not appear in this example. I have used St John Fisher Catholic School(SJF) as a infobox test pad, as it has two sites, and it has some of the code we need to demonstrate, but a lot of the 'heritage' parameters are blank. A decision needs to be made. Do we switch, do we suggest we have two UK examples- or do we add half an infobox- a mini SJF under the UK Example with justification. Either way the Judd or SJF Fair use Logo needs to have it copyright statement changed to reflect its use on this page. --ClemRutter (talk) 17:46, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi ClemRutter, the reason the examples have an image instead of a logo is because non-free logos are not allowed to be used outside of the article namespace. No need for two UK examples, the current one is fine and the majority of schools operate on a single campus. I've added a new Map for multiple campuses subsection of Map and coordinates in the documentation, this should suffice and tells users how to add this Steven (Editor) (talk) 06:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Copyright! I forgot that one. But we are in luck. The example school uses good old Andrews coat-of-arms- so we can substitute in a crop of an 1819 PD-Art image we already have. You can't have an example that fail to show how logos are correctly added. The maps still remains an issue, as a lot of our clients will just look at the example, cut paste and customise. I think that multi-site schools are becoming more of a problem with academies- and a lot of existing articles that used to use pushpins had to compromise, and will now want to add the data. ClemRutter (talk) 14:22, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
Now that you've added that logo, I've removed the image so it matches with the article, and the other examples have an image so the image parameter is already being illustrated adequately; the Examples section appears at the bottom with the Parameters section appearing before it that describes the parameters in the template —this won't really lead to your claim of "a lot of our clients will just look at the example, cut paste and customise" (evidence needed for this claim), not to mention the blank parameters for copying under basic and full syntax are before these examples. Why do you "think that multi-site schools are becoming more of a problem with academies"? Most academies operate on a single campus, pretty much replacing the previous school. Steven (Editor) (talk) 21:39, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Infobox university § Where to note years

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox university § Where to note years. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:31, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Short descriptions#Category needing attention

Just FYI: I've made an edit to the short description to limit the length when an excessivley detailed type is provided per Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Short descriptions#Category needing attention. If there are any objections I'm very happy to discuss it further. --Trialpears (talk) 23:23, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Etymology

Many schools are named after notable people, or events; we should add a parameter for that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

There was a discussion on this topic just over a year ago; there was not consensus at that time to add such a parameter. (Consensus, of course, can change so that is no reason to not discuss the topic again.) ElKevbo (talk) 19:10, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Ah an eponym! There is one parameter that I would like to restrict-and that is motto. Every stub writer believes this field must be filled and trawls the prospectus to find a marketing slogan. At least we should insist on a source. ClemRutter (talk) 20:47, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Significant cleanup of this template needed?

I've been applying some fixes to infoboxes on various high schools in the United States. I so doing, I've come across various uses (and misuses) of template fields. In trying to rectify them, I've become quite cognizant of what I perceive as some shortcomings of this infobox template. Some examples:

  • I came across Saint John's High School (Massachusetts) and found that (for once) someone had used the enrollment fields for individual grades. Do we really need such minutiae for a school? Isn't the enrollment field enough?
  • The infobox has fields for president, chair, chairman (but no chairwoman), chairperson, dean, administrator, rector, director, principal, campus director, headmistress, headmaster, head of school, head teacher, executive head teacher, officer in charge, and chaplain (I'm out of breath now). That's an insane number of possibilities (17!) for the head administrative position at a school. If some of those aren't intended as the head administrative position, then they shouldn't be on the infobox template per this discussion.
  • Some of the fields are poorly documented. Example; "schooltype" says "Type of school. If entered with funding type or type, will display as funding type, schooltype or type schooltype. " but doesn't give any examples of what this means. Somewhat similarly, "campus_type" lists urban and suburban as options with 'etc.' What etc.? What other options are there? I can't think of anything. I've seen "closed" and "open" used here as well. This seems at odds with the intention of the field, but I can't point to anything to show it being wrong.
  • I've seen some schools that aren't just high schools that also list the principals for the middle school and elementary school components of the school. Again, I can't point to anything that shows this to be wrong, but it seems out of place for how we describe notability of primary schools.
  • Rival(s); every time I have seen this field it has been done without citation. Perhaps we need a more careful definition of what a rival is, not just what an editor (likely staff or student) thinks it is? Many "SportsTeamA/SportsteamB Rivalry" articles have been deleted for lack of sufficient citations to support there being a rivalry. Yet, here we offer no inclusion criteria at all.

I could go one for a bit, but it feels to me like we need to strengthen our documentation and tighten the fields available on this template. Thoughts? --Hammersoft (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Generally information that appears in the infobox is also in the article body. In all cases there should be published sources to support the content. Information that requires a citation, that wasn't sourced in the article body, should have a citation in the infobox.
For US schools NCES is a source of for data that generally goes to the infobox. NCES provides enrollment by grade - apparently someone thought it was minutiae worth noting.
Having a large number of possible head administrator labels available to choose from avoids having the editor provide a value for 'head_label' for every school or worse yet calling them all "Head administrator."
Open or closed seem to fit as values for "Status" so I'd avoid them for "Schooltype." Similarly I think gender types should be values for "gender" rather than "Schooltype," although it does show up both places.
I have come across "Rival(s)" with a source, usually in the Athletics section with the school name(s) repeated in the infobox. Very rare. When it is not independently sourced I generally remove the rivalry material.
What is the purpose of 'locale'?
NCES provides both a mailing address and a physical address. Sometimes when those are different editors work to make the differences known. The infobox instuctions say to use the street address and city or town in which the school is located. However the infobox heading is 'Address' rather than 'Physical address' if a value is supplied for address. Should we supply an address only when the mailing and physical addresses are the same?
Gab4gab (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
I agree some cleanup may be warranted - personally, for the pages I've done, I just deleted the items that didn't apply to a typical US school.
School type = public or private, primary or secondary as I understand it.
Campus type - other includes rural
I agree enrollment by grade is not notable; the general problem is the pages aren't updated regularly as it is, and adding more lines that are quickly out of date is a waste of effort
Locale is a field on the NCES page for US schools. I've not used it.
I agree status is open or closed
Many pages were created before the template existed in it's current state (or wasn't used), so there is significant variation among schools
I feel other administrators should be listed under the school district page, not the high school page; I agree that if the parameter is not intended to be the top administrator, it should be deleted, but I can't speak for the title used outside a public US school.
I understand that schools are no longer exempt from notability, so most school pages should really be under the district article in the US, as they wouldn't meet the current standards for notability (local media coverage not being sufficient). I know we don't generally delete pages that exist, and I've not nominated pages for deletion, but for the 100+ school district pages for Iowa I created last year, I just included information on the high school on the district page, unless the high school page already existed.
RickH86 (talk) 21:29, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
  • There are only two coordinators left on the schools project, neither of whom are particularly active right now. I agree that the documentation needs to be strengthened and the available fields tightened up on this template. However Hammersoft, if you feel strongly about it, you may have to rely on your own initiative, do it yourself, and be prepared for Bold-Revert-Discuss if anyone doesn't like the changes. Pinging User:Steven (Editor). Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Head Rabbi Tag

Would it be possible to add a Hear rabbi tag for use if the Chaplain infobox tag is not fitting like in use of jewish schools?

ChromiumOverload (talk) 16:27, 6 January 2022 (UTC) Chromium Overlord

This can be accomplished with |r_head= and |r_head_label= which is there for other religious leaders. MB 17:08, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Coord and map issue

There is an issue with a shown map in the infobox on a page which I am not able to sort out. The discussion is here and any help/advice is appreciated. Primefac (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Adding A Useful UK Gov Link

We currently have the option to link to the Ofsted report using the URN number. What I am proposing to add is another option for people to automatically add the link to the UK Gov grades and performance page for that school. For example, a local school I am contributing towards is The Billericay School. You can see that there is an "Ofsted" link. My proposal would allow for another link directed to here: https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136861/the-billericay-school/secondary which will allow the viewer to quickly see the most recent grades and performance reports of the school. PRY86400 (talk) 19:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 3 May 2022

I propose to add a new section similar to the Ofsted link section but for the link to school "Performance" on the government website. The link can be generated using the URN just like the Ofsted link can be. Here is an example of the link: https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk/school/136861/the-billericay-school/secondary. I would love to get more involved in this as I have other ideas for the enrichment of the info boxes. Please let me know how I can help PRY86400 (talk) 12:00, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:11, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 18 June 2022

I've updated the sandbox to adjust how {{{campus_type}}} and {{{campus_size}}} are displayed by placing them in a single row. This style reflects how it is shown in {{Infobox university}}. –Aidan721 (talk) 22:50, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Update: Also merged {{{team name}}} into {{{nickname}}} parameter as they are synonyms. –Aidan721 (talk) 23:07, 18 June 2022 (UTC)


About campus_type, campus_size
Three parameters are involved, plus their /doc text:
|campus=: "The name or names of the school campus, may also use campuses"
|campus_type=: "Urban, suburban, etc."
|campus_size=: "The size of the school campus"
All fine. In the testcases, |campus_size= shows as expected Green tickY. However, when both |campus, campus_type= are used, the TYPE does not show Red XN.
Also, the labeltext (lefthand) changed: "type" is gone, giving confusion/mixup.
In the TPU shows, they are used heavily: [2], [3] (1000s).
Looks like you have mixed up the meaning (intention, by doc) of "campus" and "campus type". My first thought would be to leave "campus" untouched, and combine size and type (only those two) as intended. Do use a better label instead of "campus'. Maybe "campus description", or something better ;-)
-DePiep (talk) 19:16, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
@DePiep: Can you link me to any articles that use {{{campus}}} for the name of the campus? {{Infobox university}} use "campus" as the label to display the {{{campus_type}}} and {{{campus_size}}}. If there are multiple campuses then {{{campuses}}} should be used in my opinion. –Aidan721 (talk) 20:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
See the three TPU links (template parameter usage) above: 1 gives list of parameters as used in articles, and the other two I gave are lists per parameter (clicked from the master list). There are 4033 uses of |campus=. I do not check their intended usage, we must assume they are accoring to the documentation. You simply cannot change the meaning of the parameter full stop. Just leave this parameter alone. Only change the _type and _size and you'll be fine. Plural |campuses= is untouched and does not need a change either. Note that it has the same documentation as the singular. -DePiep (talk) 20:19, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
But looking through the articles, the usage between {{{campus}}} and {{{campus_type}}} are the same. None mention a "campus name". –Aidan721 (talk) 01:25, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm going to go through the TPU and fix the usage of {{{campus}}} according to the documentation, then we can re-evaluate those parameters. –Aidan721 (talk) 01:30, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
@Aidan721: There is nothing to "fix". |campus= is different from |campus_type=, by code and by documentation. It is only your claim that they are used wrong. But code and documentation say it clearly: different. By this, your sandbox is disappearing documented input. In other words: these are not synonyms, and you cannot treat them as such. I must warn you that this editing you mention would be edit warring, which is not tolerable. Also, it would require change of documentation, which I oppose. In my first post here I already showed you an acceptable road (which is the change you originally described here anyway). -DePiep (talk) 04:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm saying that many of the pages are using {{{campus}}} incorrectly and I'm going to adjust it to the correct parameter. –Aidan721 (talk) 04:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
If you mean to say "incorrectly wrt the documentation" you are right to edit the article. That does not require a template edit. However, it is not OK to change as a silent /doc change. (while that is what your code is doing). -DePiep (talk) 04:49, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
About team_name, nickname
@Aidan721: They are not synonyms. They cannot be merged. -DePiep (talk) 19:26, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
@DePiep: How are these not synonyms? See the use on {{Infobox university}}. {{{nickname}}} here refers to a school's athletic nickname. Seems the same to me. If not, can you please elaborate on the differences? –Aidan721 (talk) 20:04, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Because the testcase shows that your sandbox version hides one. Live version shows two different entries, so you cannot just disappear one. -DePiep (talk) 20:21, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
Because they both mean athletic nickname so it doesn't need to display both. That'd be redundant. Why would we show both? –Aidan721 (talk) 01:21, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Because articles can use either. To eliminate one, you would need to edit every article using the one proposed for deletion first to move to data to the parameter being kept before changing the template. MB 01:47, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm not eliminating one, both parameters are used in the same data line, so as long as one of them are used, it will be shown. The parameter is not being deleted.
This is how it appears in the sandbox:
 | data131 = {{{nickname|{{{team_name|{{{team name|{{{teamname|}}}}}}}}}}}}
As long as one of {{{nickname}}}, {{{team_name}}}, etc. above are used, it will be shown so there is no need to edit every page. –Aidan721 (talk) 02:04, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
1. The source code does not treat them as synonyms (different data points, see also testcases) 2. The documentation does not show or describe them as synonyms, 3. You are not free to change it, because they are been used in the documented way. 4. I do explicitly oppose merging them as being synonyms in the documentation: ie, even when you would 'check' each of the ca. 10.000 instances and edit. I'm not going to look for an instance where you'd break school's infobox, but you could do so yourself proving one way or the other. 5. In the testcase: live both are shown as different names, in your sandbox ony one. So that's hiding one. 6. The code lines you should show here are those from live version, that whould show your point of synonyms (spoiler: the code does not do that). -DePiep (talk) 03:48, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
7. "That'd be redundant" - no, when both are used both are shown, and they mean something different. -DePiep (talk) 04:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Athletic nickname ({{{nickname}}}) is defined as "the name officially adopted by that institution for at least the members of its athletic teams"
{{{Team name}}} is defined in the documentation as "names of any athletic teams"
Again, how are these different? –Aidan721 (talk) 04:39, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
The parameter is not defined by the article, but by its documentation. Meanwhile, documentation and code here align, so no error to be fixed. If you want to change these parameters to be synonyms, first propose it here. I note that ist is not OK to edit the articles prematurely into this (because you would break the documented usage). -DePiep (talk) 04:46, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
The parameters definition in the documentation defines it as the article. –Aidan721 (talk) 04:55, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

campus/es parameter names change proposal

About parameters campus, campuses
  • The edit request above does not propose to change these (but does so in the sandbox code, so I oppose that because not in the Er here and not correct wrt documentation).
Reading the /doc, these two parameters both seem to ask for the campus name, descriptor, identfier, singular or plural. Actual usage clearly shows location listings (addresses). To clarify this,
I propose to change the parameter names into |campus_name=, |campus_names/campuses_names= (tbd). Declare these the "preferred" param names, keep old ones but Deprecated. Adjust (LH) labeltext too.
Other solutions (against confusion) possible? -DePiep (talk) 04:59, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Nickname/Team name synonym proposal

I am proposing making {{{nickname}}} and {{{team_name}}} synonyms in this infobox as outlined in my lengthy discussion in the post above. The two paramters both refer to the name of the school's athletic teams. –Aidan721 (talk) 04:57, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

What if the school itself has a nickname? How is that added? New parameter needed? -DePiep (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
The fundamental problem with this proposal is that the "nickname" parameter was originally for the nickname of the school, and the documentation was modified in 2008 to link the work "nickname" to athletic nickname with an edit summary of "Update". I was unable to find a discussion justifying this change in meaning.
A discussion in 2006 suggested using "nickname" for athletic team nicknames, but other editors objected to that usage.
This confusion has meant that we have two parameters here, while at {{Infobox university}}, there is just one parameter for the athletic team name, possibly from a parameter merge (I did not look in the archives or history there). Meanwhile, there are articles like Brooklyn Technical High School that use both parameters for different things, and where merging would remove information. Whether the nickname of a school is useful information or obvious trivia is a matter of debate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:12, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
A good place to start with a conundrum like this is to use a hidden tracking category to find articles that use both parameters. There are about 4,000 or 5,000 articles that use one or the other or both, and the category will tell you how many would be affected by merging (i.e. hiding one of) the parameters. If you implement the tracking category in the sandbox (start by copying the live template, as I advised earlier), I'll be happy to make it live. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:29, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Good report, J95. I'd support the parameter cleanup needed. The maintenance category you propose would omit situations where one is used, in a correct old (2008)/new (2022) meaning? I think all uses of both need a check... Meanwhile: propose to add two new parameter names with specific meaning as we all want here. Then, the old params can be deprecated & there is time to edit them out after a check (petscan? use WP:TPU?, separate maint categories for each one?). -DePiep (talk) 07:32, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
... anyway, first we need to define intended semantics of both, whatever parameter name. -DePiep (talk) 07:34, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Campus type

In the high school infobox template, what is to be used under: campus_type? I was told that was to be literally word for word from NCES data and adopted that practice, but an editor on the Parkland High School (Pennsylvania) page has reverted that to what, I guess, is his own description of the area. My edit was: Surburb: Large (directly from NCES). His is: Suburban. Would appreciate some clarification on this so I have it right going forward. The NCES page: https://nces.ed.gov/ccd/schoolsearch/school_detail.asp?Search=1&ID=421851002829 Thanks for guidance. Keystone18 (talk) 05:11, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

The documentation at {{infobox school}} says "Urban, suburban, etc." which is concise as well as what I use and most commonly see. MB 06:44, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
So is there any definitive policy on what source should be used for this entry, then? The NCES pages have several categories of very specific descriptions for campus_type and the very phrase "campus_type" originates from NCES. I remember being told by an editor somewhere along the line that the NCES description--and the exact category they assign to a school--was what must be used. That communication happened after I had used, like this editor now ironically is insisting be used, a more subjective approach based on my own understanding of the campus/community or (if I had none) what I could locate online. Like many, this school, Parkland High School, is described by NCES as: Suburb: Large. If the NCES description isn't used, this high school is a great example of being open to a number of individual and ultimately subjective descriptions. If there is no policy on what source should be used for this, there probably should be, if only to avoid edit conflicts like the one that emerged here. Would welcome your thoughts, or that of any others with advanced knowledge of this Infobox template. Thanks! Keystone18 (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
No definitive policy on sources and I have never heard anything that demands the NCES category be used, though it's a good source. I have also just used "Urban", "Suburban", or "Rural" since the specifics NCES uses aren't clear and are generally specific to the US. For Parkland specifically, it could definitely be argued the campus is rural since it's well outside of Allentown and surrounded by fields, but I think "suburban" is sufficient. "Suburb: Large" doesn't give the readers any greater understanding of the topic than "suburban", plus there's no context for defining what NCES considers a "large suburb". --JonRidinger (talk) 15:34, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Country Ireland Not Being Displayed

I have noticed that in the Infobox's for Irish schools, the country is listed as "Republic Of Ireland", however in the source of the infobox the country is "Ireland". The MOS WP:IRE-IRL states that the consensus is to "Use 'Ireland' for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. In such circumstances use Republic of Ireland". Therefore the country name being displayed on Infoboxes of Irish schools is incorrect. Can this template be please modified to display the correct name? Cashew.wheel (talk) Cashew.wheel (talk) 09:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Sorry to bounce you around, but that's an issue with {{Country data Ireland}}, not this template. Primefac (talk) 15:44, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for the steer, I'll follow it up there. Cashew.wheel (talk) 16:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Primefac, are you sure about this. Although I don't see it in the documentation, this template takes a ISO country code and displays the corresponding text, (e.g. US-> United States, IRE->Republic of Ireland). Isn't that done is one place, not a country-specific template? MB 17:24, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
It's not; the relevant bit of code is {{#if:{{{country|}}}|...{{#ifexist:Template:Country data {{{country}}}|{{Getalias|{{{country}}}}}|{{{country}}}...}}. Primefac (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Primefac, OK, looking further {{Getalias}} has a parameter to extract the "short name" for a country. The template even uses IRE as an example. It seems unlikely that {{Country data Ireland}} would be modified to hide the "long name". Can't this template just ask for the "short name". MB 17:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Ah, good point,  Done. Thanks MB, you've saved Cashew.wheel a second set of posts. Primefac (talk) 17:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for acting on this so quickly, I had thought the behaviour was inconsistent as it wasn't happening with other infoboxes like Organisation. Cashew.wheel (talk) 18:10, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

which one

why mottoes and not mottos 2603:6011:9600:52C0:E1C0:476B:9A5B:1408 (talk) 01:30, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

That is what was chosen. Here's one reliable source. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

no native name language parameter?

is there any reason why there isn't a native name language parameter (native_name_lang) like most infoboxes with the native_name parameter do? it makes sense for there to be one if the native name parameter exists. greyzxq talk 16:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

I made this into an edit request. NM 03:27, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
It is not needed. You can use {{lang}} or a {lang-xx} template, as at Wellington High School, New Zealand. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:24, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Ofsted

This field needs to be changed as Ofsted only covers England, Wales should be Estyn, Scotland Education Scotland, and NI would be ETI. This should be fixed really. CrossHouses (talk) 07:32, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Are there schools in which this parameter is used incorrectly, or are you saying that we should add these values? Primefac (talk) 13:17, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Head boy, school prefect

I wanted to add school prefect parameter. Kanpur navidayan (talk) 19:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not needed in the infobox. If, for some reason, the prefect of a school is important to include in the article, it can be placed in the article, with a reference to a reliable source (i.e. not the school's web site or a blog or a personal site). – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:12, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Hi Kanpur navidayan, what Jonesey95 said is right and you can also check out the infobox contents section of the school article guidelines, which has more information on what should and shouldn't be included in the infobox. Hope this helps, Steven (Editor) (talk) 00:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

What counts as a "Publication"?

I don't have much experience with editing on Wikipedia, so this might be a dumb question. What can go into the "Publications" parameter? I was editing my school's wiki page, and wasn't sure if there was a place to put a link to the school news on YouTube. At first I thought it might fall under "Publications" but then I was thinking that it's more for academic or scientific publications? I'm not sure, and I'm wanting to double check before editing that parameter on my school page. RandomAmericanTeen (talk) 19:54, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

According to the /doc, Name of the school publication. I suspect this is intended for something like the school newspaper. Is a YouTube news channel from a school a "publication"? I can see some arguments for saying yes, but I don't really have any firm opinions on the matter. Primefac (talk) 11:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
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