User talk:Doug butler/archive1

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Hello, Doug butler! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking Button sig.png or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your username and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! FlowerpotmaN·{| width="100%" style="background-color:#F5FFFA;"
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February 2008[edit]

Information.svg Welcome, and thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test on the page Samuel Beckett worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. If you would like to experiment further, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Please do not sign the article mainspaces; signatures are only for talk pages. EnviroboyTalkCs 05:42, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

William Wales (astronomer)[edit]

I just added a few references to the William Wales (astronomer) article, just in case someone was too eager with notability tags at new pages. I'm sure you'll be back to the article anyway; definitely worth expanding. Ironically I happen to have a copy of Longitude beside the computer here, but alas, no mention. Anyway, good luck with the article and shout if you need anything. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 16:39, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Don't have much time as I have other things to do but if you wondering what William Wales might look like in comic book form, wonder no more!. I followed a mention in the Captain Cook society external link you added and found an educational comic produced by the Hudson Bay Company a couple of years ago. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 10:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Teisutis Zikaras[edit]


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Testing changes[edit]

Responding to your question on my talk page... you might find this useful: Help:Show preview. —Paul A (talk) 01:24, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Paul A, for your prompt reply. I should have mentioned: I do regularly use <Show preview> (not that I invariably catch all my bludners) but the one thing I never see is the <Categories> box. I just now tried again to no avail. The other Category that didn't match up was <Classical_music_publishers>. I'm sure there's a Category <Music_publishers> but grouping L'Oiseau Lyre with Brill Building is helpful to no-one. I guess what I'm looking for is a searchable list of categories. Even if I could get <Show preview> to display the Categories box, the 10 or 20 seconds delay on each 'trial and error' attempt feels like an age.--Doug butler (talk) 09:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The categories box does appear on preview, but it's in its usual place, right down at the bottom of the page – which means, confusingly, it's under the edit box. There's a list of all categories at Special:Categories; even if that doesn't help in itself, that page also has a few links to other category-related pages that might be useful. You might try going to the WikiProject Music discussion page and suggesting your idea of dividing the music publishing category by type of music. —Paul A (talk) 00:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Melbourne Savage Club[edit]

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A tag has been placed on Melbourne Savage Club requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a club, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guidelines for people and for organizations. You may also wish to consider using a Wizard to help you create articles - see the Article Wizard.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the page meets the criterion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the page that would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the page does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that they userfy the page or have a copy emailed to you. —ShadowRanger (talk|stalk) 20:07, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Just to be clear, adding a hangon tag requires that you explain why the nomination is in error. As is, the article asserts no claim to notability greater than the notability of some members. If you have further information, supported by reliable sources, please provide it. —ShadowRanger (talk|stalk) 20:17, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Herrick. L. Johnston[edit]

Hi Doug, I've nuked the page per your request. I've also deleted Herrick. L. Johnston under WP:CSD#R3; I think this was your intention. If not, please feel free to recreate it. Regards, Airplaneman 22:05, 19 September 2010 (UTC)


I'm glad to see someone is editing the White article. I held a memorial picnic in CP below his house in Martin Rd only last Sunday (20th anniversary of his death, well, roughly). Tony (talk) 05:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm pleased to add a few cents' worth.--Doug butler (talk) 09:02, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

J. B. Fagan[edit]

Hello. I see you started a new article on Fagan. It looks good, so far, but your references are incomplete. Would you please add the rest of the information to the references, such as page numbers, author names, publisher name and city, dates of publication and access dates? Thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:45, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Point taken. There's two things I hate doing
  1. finding templates
  2. crossing the i's and dotting the t's
  3. checking my own work :) --Doug butler (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

LOL! Good progress, though! Tim riley and I each brushed it up a bit. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:22, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

references as requested, but don't know how to op.cit. them properly. Our man is covered p.30-35. I'm inclined to <refname="Chapman">Chapman, Don Oxford Playhouse: high and low drama in a university city Univ of Hertfordshire Press, 2009 ISBN 9781902806860 p.30–35</ref> and <refname="Chapman"/> (corrupted for clarity) but is that sufficient to answer [citation needed]?Doug butler (talk) 21:06, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

No, it's even simpler! When you have the source at the bottom of the article, you just need to identify it with the page number in the body of the article, like this: <ref>Chapman, p. x</ref>. By the way, when you use ref name = you don't need quotes. If we had two cites to chapman at p. 32, we could write: <ref name=Chapman32>Chapman, p. 32</ref>. Then the subsequent cite would just be: <ref name=Chapman32/>. Note the / at the end of the subsequent ref. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

BTW, if you need any help with formatting, etc. please ask me. I'm always happy to help you help us! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:55, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Ssilvers. Back in Lions we had a saying "If you want a job done, give it to a busy man". You're certainly one of those! An query you might help with: how can I find (other than Google!), for linking purposes, unlinked instances of "J. B. Fagan" now that the page exists?--Doug butler (talk) 21:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Do you mean links within Wikipedia? I think you got them all. Outside of Wikipedia, besides Google, there are various databases like Who's Who. Obviously, a public library or university library would have access to more resources. All the best! -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:09, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

It was a general question, as I've had the Seek and Destroy problem before and kluged it by searching for a slightly misspelled version, or Googled eg [Wikipedia "J. B. Fagan"] but figured there had to be a "Find all instances" utility somewhere in the incredible mass of Wikipedia support stuff.--Doug butler (talk) 22:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, not that I know of, although, I am not a very technically savvy guy. I just added some more stuff from the Oxford DNB and nominated the article for DYK. See: Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:30, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations on a good-looking page. I especially like the way the first par is a potted history with no references. I've just done something similar with my Albert Collins (painter) (And So To Bed rates a mention; I'd seen Leo McKern in the Pepys part and was astonished the author didn't rate an article) and it looks better.--Doug butler (talk) 21:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

It should be done in any article more than a few paragraphs. See WP:LEAD. Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Til the Day I Die[edit]

See this: (not sure it's a reliable source). See also this: This iss interesting:,9171,754889-2,00.html Ah ha! Here's a good one: By the way, I'm not watching this page, so if you need to respond, kindly post to my talk page. Good luck with the article.  :-) -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:04, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

DYK for J. B. Fagan[edit]

RlevseTalk 06:04, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations on the DYK. Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:12, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

German author[edit]

Hi. Thanks for the invite, but this is 'way outside my area of interest. Good luck with it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


Nice work! Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for doing the business for me. I do enjoy putting pages together but get terribly confused with the WP: mechanics. I am now thinking of articles on other lost Adelaide icons - Bickfords, Simpson, Pope Products, Amscol, Woodroofe. Thank God we still have Coopers!!!! And one day I'll put up a user page - probably steal yours, replacing Torrens Park with Marion/Bridgewater :) --Doug butler (talk) 08:58, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
Funny you say that! I have been working on it, slowly, for a couple of years, and would appreciate somebody else doing a better and faster job!!
Many of the pages you mention already exist, but not all, and many of those that do exist need more work.
Have a look at Adelaide#Icons and Category:Companies based in Adelaide
Here are some other "Adelaide" pages not already mentioned:
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 09:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Bickford's Australia[edit]

FYI? Some of the dates and facts are different to those you have quoted, and different yet again is stuff on the Bickfords website! I'm not sure how you're going to sort that out!!! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. Here's a 4th, slighly different again. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I really should have started a new userpage A.M.Bickford and Sons, then linked to Bickford's Australia, which could be thought of a different identity. Thanks for the improvements, greatly appreciated--Doug butler (talk) 19:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC).--Doug butler (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────FYI. Pdfpdf (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Looking good! Some more about DHA and collapse of manufactory and rebirth and it could be a candidate for DYK--Doug butler (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
I've been reflecting on your comment: "I really should have started a new page A.M.Bickford and Sons, then linked to Bickford's Australia, which could be thought of as a different identity.". I can see merit in splitting this article into two. Shall we? Pdfpdf (talk) 23:09, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
The advantage of splitting is the Category:Pharmaceutical companies of Australia tag that can only belong to A M Bickford & Sons. But I do like the narrative quality the way it is.--Doug butler (talk) 13:24, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
Yeah. Me too. So, what's the "way forward"? Pdfpdf (talk) 13:30, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

(Edit conflict - in response to your now deleted comments)

Agree. (Except for Ms Scales - She's not the only next step.) You take her, and I'll continue with the others.
BTW: I haven't located the source of a few of your facts, and there are a pile of Bickfords that I don't know where to fit into the jigsaw puzzle. If you can add anything to, I'd feel less like a mushroom. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:29, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about deletions; I changed my mind shortly after writing. Couldn't see lay-down reason for splitting until the Category: thing popped into my head, now it looks the best way. Any unreferenced facts in particular? Apart from Trove and the list of Library artefacts, the only sources I remember using were my 1962 Sands & McDougall's Directory for street numbers, which I thought trivial, and the ACC pamphlet that stated the Currie Street offices were still standing.--Doug butler (talk) 21:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

"Any unreferenced facts in particular?" - Yes, but I'll take a better look at the quoted references first. Pdfpdf (talk) 04:58, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Filled in a few gaps in Wikimedia Commons family tree from Marjorie Scales' research. Outside my comfort zone but I think I got the format mostly OK. Might wander down to St Jude's cemetery - they list stones for Amy, Elizabeth & Frederick & William S, Emily, Harold & Ethel, Reginald & Rosa Florence, William & Margaret & William Fergusson (sic).--Doug butler (talk) 08:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Filled in a few gaps - Yeah, just a "few"!
Fascinating. Pdfpdf (talk) 09:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The book is a cracker. Paid for by Ron Bickford, I believe the last of that generation. Now what's the protocol here to avoid editing conflicts? Obviously chapter editing and frequent saves will help, but any further recommendations?--Doug butler (talk) 10:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, me paying more attention to what you're doing would be a good start!
I don't know if there's a protocol, but independent of that, I agree that it would be a good idea if you & I agreed on a mutually convenient and effective one. (A very good idea!) Yes, chapter editing and frequent saves will help. I'm open to any suggestions. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
P.S. How did you get hold of a copy of the book? Pdfpdf (talk) 16:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Pay attention to what I'm doing? Can't even do that myself. My heart's in the right place but I've never got the hang of systematic process. Might as well muddle on; it's worked so far:)
How did you get hold of a copy of the book? Intended Inter Library Loan but Marion library opening hours don't fit in with current DIY Project and correctly guessed an old friend would have a copy that he could lend.Doug butler (talk) 18:37, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

A mystery - I can't find where Reginald Bickford and the mysterious Stephen came in. Now it seems all the Reginald references are in the Social Pages!Doug butler (talk) 10:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you referring to this Reginald?
2. William Jr. (1841-1916 aged 75) =1871= Margaret Jane Ferguson
3. Reginald = Rosa Florence Cudmore (5 children) (Reginald succeeded "Stephen" as factory manager(when?))
I haven't been able to find much. The only thing I can recall finding is the 1926 Price List.
Pdfpdf (talk) 12:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
It's starting to look really good. Your improvements to my grammar make it flow much better. (No to mention you putting stuff in the correct centuries!) I think the "to do" list is now of a manageable length. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:21, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


  • Who was Stephen? (Would have been born 1830-1850 methinks,)
  • We don't seem to know very much about Harry. But he and all of his kids were out of the picture by 1930.
  • We don't seem to know very much about "the third generation". Presumably after 1930 they continued on with board positions at DHA? Harold would have been 54ish at the time. I suppose he might have retired? Do we have birth &/or death dates for Reginald & Leslie?
  • Does Ms Scales have much to say about the fourth and fifth generations?
  • Is Ronald Ferguson Bickford fourth or fifth generation? fourth - Only child of Harold
  • A. M. Bickford & Sons (1863 - 1930), Encyclopaedia of Australian Science, is probably accurate. What evidence do we have for 1864? I think it was me who decided that one of the newspapers was more authoritative - silly me! Are you OK with 1863? "It was legalised by a deed dated 23 February 1864" - as A. M. Bickford & SON
  • In 1930, presumably business continued in Currie and Waymouth Streets. Until when? Did everything move to Port Road in 1956?
  • Was there any Bickford family involvement in Felton Grimwade & Bickford Ltd, Western Australia (1902-1930)?
    • Sidney In Perth from 1900? instrumental in formation of Fulton Grimwade Bickford
  • Presumably there's not been any Bickford family involvement in Felton Grimwade & Bickford Pty Ltd, Victoria (1976-today1987)? (Highly unlikely!)
    • addendum: After fgb sold Bickfords in 1987, instead of becoming fg, it remained fgb with the b being "Bosito" (probably mis-spelt by me.)
  • Who bought "Bickford’s Lime Juice Cordial and Coffee Essence, together with the business name A.M. Bickford & Sons", in 1987?
    • I have a strange tale to tell you. I emailed fgb asking, "Who did you sell Bickford's to in 1987?" They replied (very politely): "Ask Bickford's". So I phoned Bickford's and the (very-polite-and-trying-to-be-very-helpful) receptionist said, "I'm new here this week, but I believe the answer is 'Lloyds'". "Who?" I replied. She responded, "they were a softdrink company in the Adelaide Hills." I couldn't find anything obvious, but I did find a 2007 SA Gov tourist brochure referring to "Lloyd Brothers winery" with an office in Hahndorf. To cut a very long and involved story short, "It's not them", but I have left one of the "Lloyd Brothers" in a very confused and very suspicious state! It looks like the Lloyds involved are/were a suburban-Melbourne company, but I haven't pinned anything definitive down yet. I think I might need to give Angelo Kotses a phonecall; I hope he's willing to talk to me! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:56, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
  • What happened in the period 1987-1999?
  • Where was Benacre, and what happened to it? It is at 6 Benacre Close! See Talk:Bickford's Australia#Benacre & Benacre, Glen Osmond
  • When was Alvington built? (Before 1886 - one of Wm jr.'s sons born there 30 December 1885)
  • What happened with Alvington between 1916 and 1938?
    • Wm jr.'s wife Margaret Jane Ferguson (1842?-14 May 1932 aged 90 at "Alvington")
  • What happened with Alvington between 1932 and 1938?
  • What happened to Alvington after 1976? (There don't appear to be any signs of it left.)

Who was Stephen?

The $64 question. No mention in MS. Possibly an English cousin or a misunderstanding on the part of the reporter. Would have been born 1830-1850 methinks, so can't be familiar name for anyone on the AMB tree, though we haven't yet found what happened to Edward. Most of the other questions will come clear in due course. MS is a slim book but little padding (Ron got his money's worth whatever he paid). As for your question about third generation, I am reminded of the aphorism "shirtsleeves to sirtsleeves in three generations". I spent some time on Trove trying to find more about Reginald (and hence Stephen?) but virtually every reference was to Mrs and occasionally Mr as attendees at fashionable functions.--Doug butler (talk) 06:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Indeed. I was amused that the only references I could find for Alvington were advertisements for maids ... Pdfpdf (talk) 14:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Who was Ronald Ferguson Bickford?

Only child of Harold (1876-1958) son of William jr. So last of the fourth generation if I counted right.--Doug butler (talk) 06:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

1863 or 1864?

From MS, Harry wrote to an aunt "... in that year (1864) I cam of age and mother being pleased ... took me into partnership ...' It was legalised by a deed dated 23 February 1864, that the firm would be known as Bickford and SON (my stress), would last seven years, two thirds interest held by her. Brother William was all this time seeking his fortune out bush - clearly itchy feet and couldn't be tied down to a chemist's shop. The Deed of Partnership expired 1871 and a new deed drawn up making him a partner in the firm A.M Bickford and SONS. But I'm getting ahead of myself. 1863 Harry is running the shop, 1864 start of partnership, 1871 the full deal. Take your pick.--Doug butler (talk) 06:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
That's a very handy little book, isn't it! And with your recent additions, quite a few things fall into place. You have demolished my faith in 1863 - I obviously need to work out what went on. "It was legalised by a deed dated 23 February 1864" doesn't leave any room for mis-interpretation, does it. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
BTW: Further examination of data from is very disappointing - it's nowhere near as good as my first impressions of it made me think it was. Oh well - c'est la vie. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:54, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Gave Trove a thrashing last night - lots of new dates for Wikimedia page but more new questions than answers--Doug butler (talk) 05:50, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, that happens, doesn't it - the more you know, the more you realise how much you don't know. "Ignorance is bliss"! Pdfpdf (talk) 11:50, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Three interesting findings - Harry had three wives not two. Ron's mother was a very interesting gel (for a great bedtime read check the two references in Commons). And Reginald's parents' stone is in the Cudmore family plot at St Jude's and the shabbiest thing you could imagine, particularly by comparison. Clearly someone was telling somebody something!--Doug butler (talk) 12:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
ROTFL! "You can choose your friends, but not your relatives ... ". Pdfpdf (talk) 12:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

William Gosse[edit]

My, but we do have overlapping interests, don't we!

The reason this guy amuses me is that he married Alexander Hay's daughter, and his sister married Alexander Hay, thus making Hay both his father-in-law and brother-in-law. I think this makes him his own nephew - I did work it out once, but it seems to be beyond me at the present moment! Pdfpdf (talk) 11:27, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Adelaide Educational Institution is fascinating. The students' names read like a catalogue of Adelaide streetnames and headmaster John L. Young could call on the likes of Charles Todd to judge students' essays!--Doug butler (talk) 12:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
OK. Which URL is the best place to start? Pdfpdf (talk) 13:03, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
P.S. Have you got enough to start a stub page? Clearly, notability is not going to be a problem!! Pdfpdf (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
A very random start at User:Doug butler/Adelaide Educational Institution but I'm off to bed!--Doug butler (talk) 13:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Job Hallett[edit]

I have replied here. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

If you have any problems, don't hesitate to ask me for help. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:20, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
I can't keep up with you! I'm off to bed. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Woo hoo![edit]

What's the title of that 1970s disco song? "Ain't no stoppin' us now! We're HOT!! Pdfpdf (talk) 09:56, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
(Hey! It's Friday night and my wife's at a Tupperware Party! No wonder I'm on wikipedia!!) Pdfpdf (talk)

Only about 40 classmates to go and we can go back to Bickfords. :) --Doug butler (talk) 10:03, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
ROTFLMAO!!!!! Pdfpdf (talk) 10:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
(FYI - before you started your interesting-to-me activities, I was focusing on List of historic houses in South Australia and Adelaide Park Lands. I'm not complaining - by a LONG shot. I'm really enjoying working with someone with a common interest rather than doing "it" (actually, doing anything) by myself. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:36, 18 February 2011 (UTC))

Stocktake 18 Feb 2011[edit]

So where are we up to? (i.e. please correct this list ... )

Currently active we have:

Is there anything else that's currently active? Pdfpdf (talk) 05:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't do that! I am a bear of little brain and long lists scare me. You're clearly methodical organised dedicated and skilled. I'm at the desultory dilettante one-finger-typist end of the spectrum and just enjoy the chase and the ability to contribute :). PS. have you done / are you interested in Undelcarra, the Simpsons' pile?--Doug butler (talk) 19:10, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
"Don't do that! ... " - Sorry! Is that better? (I moved the other stuff under "Collaborations" on User:Pdfpdf if you ever feel the need.)
"You're clearly methodical organised dedicated and skilled." - Well, I don't know about "dedicated" or "skilled", but flattery will do you no harm at all ...
"I'm at the ... " - I certainly overlap that end of the spectrum, (except I use four fingers.) Pdfpdf (talk) 05:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


"PS. have you done / are you interested in Undelcarra, the Simpsons' pile?" - Yes I'm interested; No I haven't done anything, yet ...
In fact, the length of the List of historic houses in South Australia is increasing much more quickly than my ability to turn the red links into blue ones, but occassionally somebody else drops by and adds something useful. Pdfpdf (talk) 05:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

That was an interesting distraction!: Undelcarra, Simpson Newland, Alfred Allen Simpson --Pdfpdf (talk) 17:23, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Wonderful! I have pleasant childhood memories of camping at Undelcarra; yabbying, playing tennis, swimming in their pool (constantly refreshed by a little spring), singing round a bonfire. Quite an experience for a lad from a very working class family. We attended the Unitarian Church, which the Simpsons hugely supported. Wonderful people - rich as Croesus but not a hint of snobbery, always pitching in and extremely helpful. The youngest of the last of the manufacturing generation, Audrey Abbie, is still bright as a button. The Simpsons were generous supporters of the Botanic Gardens and funded the new Victoria lily hothouse with its huge panels of 19mm-thick glass. It broke my heart to see the typo sandblasted on the dedication panel.--Doug butler (talk) 17:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)


Y'know, I reckon there's too much space devoted to the "aboriginal murder", and not enough to the rest of his life. Both the Stuart expedition and anything else about the Finniss expedition are barely mentioned - and in total they (and the "incident") occupied less than 5 years of his life. i.e. I think the balance is wrong. WaddaUthink? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S. What did he do in 1863-1864 between expeditions? Pdfpdf (talk) 11:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
P.P.S. Gotta do some domestic stuff - until the morrow! Pdfpdf (talk) 11:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

too much space devoted to the "aboriginal murder" Strongly disagree. The work of one minute can overshadow the rest of one's life, color the way you're remembered a hundred years later. The case dragged on for years, was the subject of parliamentary debate. The Strangways speech was vehement and could have been made yesterday. The incident and its aftermath would make a book in itself. Or an article. I worry it's a target for vandalism from armbanders/rednecks. But more on Stuart and Finniss expeditions by all means. There may have been was a third too.--Doug butler (talk) 18:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

P.S. Off camping for a few days or three. No Googling, no Troving, no typing. Just work, eat, drink and laugh.--Doug butler (talk) 18:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
PPS Yes we should have more on Auld's part in these expeditions. And I'd like to know why father Patrick seems to have had as little contact as possible with son and grandchildren. Solely business? Why retire to New Zealand? The climate there is not much better than Adelaide's. And why was "Auldana" sold/repossessed?--Doug butler (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
"The work of one minute ... " - How true!
"The case dragged on for years" - Did it. Hmmm. Well, perhaps there's not enough about it in the article? (e.g. I've learnt much more about it from your reply than I've learnt from the article.)
"I worry it's a target for vandalism" - Fair comment. I'm not sure what the best approach would be, but your implication of "low profile" sounds like a good way to start. It reminds me a bit of Simpson Newland#Author:
Newland also published a second novel, Blood Tracks of the Bush, in 1900, which was less successful than his earlier work, "partly because inferior, but also because he courageously and accurately portrayed horrific mass-murders of Aborigines by police and pastoralists. The public was not ready for such honesty."
"Off camping ... " - sounds good!
"And I'd like to know ... " - Yes indeed. "All rather peculiar"
"why was "Auldana" sold/repossessed?" - I saw something about that last night - can't remember where, though. It said something like the father got into financial difficulties when in England and mortgaged the property. I'll try to remember where I was looking.
This isn't it, but obviously used the same source Pdfpdf (talk) 10:21, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
In 1871 he opened an office in London to sell his wines. However, financial difficulties led to the mortgaging of Auldana and its transfer to the mortgagee, Josiah Symon, in 1888
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 03:03, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

I've released Mr Auld. Looks great to me, thanks in no small measure to one Pdfpdf.Doug butler (talk) 10:13, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I just came across this - it takes a view from an angle I haven't come across before. It also adds a few things, too. I thought you might find it interesting. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:44, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting about capital raising. Wondered how Symon got into it, clearly major stockholder. There's a lot about Patrick senior's winemaking ideas that I've glossed over, like his abhorrence of fortified wines - spirits only used for sterilizing barrels. But I've started on the next Old Scholar User:Doug butler/W. Herbert Phillipps. Nowhere as colorful but a busy, busy boy! Bugga! First they take away the hidden comment tool now the signature thingy doesn't work. Hafta use four tildes :} Doug butler (talk) 16:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Hidden comment[edit]

As far as I know, the hidden comment's still working: <!-- Now you see it --> xxxx And now it's back.
Oh. Hidden comment tool. Yes, bugga. Pdfpdf (talk) 00:07, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
(All my icons disappeared months ago - bloody nuisance, actually, "but I no complain". BTW: Whatever happened to Marika?)
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 08:23, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Another "camping" trip. Wirrabara this time. Retirement is SO hard to take.--Doug butler (talk) 09:04, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Grumble grumble - I've still got 3 more years of school fees ... Pdfpdf (talk) 09:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Bean Brothers Ltd[edit]

Done. Pdfpdf (talk) 14:13, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Would it be better named Bean Brothers? Pdfpdf (talk) 23:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
That was my original preference (but only weakly so). The Limited Company was set up purely for the Darwin boondoggle. Interesting how things Moebius. Three months ago I'd found Fauldings was bounded by Beans Road. Thirty years ago I was working at Cox Peninsula. And so it goes. Doug butler (talk) 07:48, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I think a grindery is plant for thicknessing leather. Perhaps for making suede leather. Or both probably. But found obit for GT which has WH as eldest son which comes as surprise. More excitements tomorrow.Doug butler (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2011 (UTC) Wrong wrong wrong. It's a place where you get tools sharpened. Could also have leatherworkers' tools for sale. Now we know.Doug butler (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

"Yet another golden thread in life's rich tapestry ... "
Re: WH being eldest: When I read "He passsed the tannery on to son William H. Bean in 1860", I had wondered if that might be the case, but couldn't find anything on the birth date of either. (Nor of Brother Arthur, nor Father George.)
P.S. Have you seen anything regarding "BEAN, William Joseph & Ellen" also buried at Hindmarsh?
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 04:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Might have to wander down there. Been working too hard and deserve a break (haha). Suspect WH also died in London. The pair would have had some pretty stroppy customers here!Doug butler (talk) 07:48, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
Oh, and "native-born" is correct. vide (Oxford) Australian National Dictionary 1st ed. 1988 p.428 Doug butler (talk) 07:56, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I didn't say it wasn't correct - I said it was inviting endless discussion ... (i.e. Don't say I didn't warn you.) Pdfpdf (talk) 08:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
I've been following your progress. Interesting. Each time you find a new bit of information, it seems to raise more questions about other information. I also find it interesting what can be found, vs what never seems to be able to be clarified! On that vein, I have discovered that the captions on photos in the SLofSA are a surprisingly rich source of information that never seems to appear anywhere else, particularly not in the purely written records. Having gotten Kym Bonython to a reasonable state, I've most recently been distracted by the South Australian Mortlocks. They seem to be intertwined with the Tennants - it seems that west of Port Augusta, the Mortlocks owned most of the southern half of South Australia, and the Tennants owned most of the northern half, (plus the land in NT up to Tennant's creek.) A Mortlock family-historian wrote that when, in 1850, William Ranson Mortlock married Andrew Tennant's sister Margaret, he was "marrying the girl next door". And just to keep it in the family, next generation William Tennant Mortlock married Rosina, one of Andrew Tennant's daughters. Sadly, although WT & Rosie had five sons, only two lived beyond childhood, and neither produced any children - the bulk of the family's wealth was donated to the Waite Research Institute, the State Library and the University of Adelaide. The last generation are "interesting". When the elder discovered he had cancer in 1948, he married his book-keeper later that year, and died in 1850. The younger died unmarried in 1936. However, read the captions on this, this and this. Pdfpdf (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


Sad news - Kym Bonython died yesterday. There's a nice "picture gallery" at Adelaide Now. Pdfpdf (talk) 23:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

He had wonderful jazz program on 5CL in '50s. Every record from his own library. All lost in the fire. Doug butler (talk) 06:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)


[Good point!] I hadn't thought of that. On reflection, a school size of 50 does seem unviably small. Pdfpdf (talk) 04:18, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

At one stage saw AEI advertisement for Classics master - 100 pounds or guineas - can't remember which - per annum. Leaves around 1000 (bugga no pound sign) for JLY and the building fund.
Picked up two useful little books from the local Rotary bookshop: SA's Greats: The men and women of the North Terrace Plaques ed. John Healey and The Vineyards of Adelaide by C.C. Bishop. Already found Luther Scammell was an Old Boy and lots about Auldana.Doug butler (talk) 13:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I've been meaning to get a copy of "SA's Greats" so I could do some more work on J150W - however, I seem to have NO trouble finding things to do. Edwin Thomas Smith has my interest at the moment - mainly because of "The Acacias", particularly its ballroom, billiards room, dining room and gardens [1] [2] [3], but also because I've been trying, without much success, to find info about SA Brewing for some time. (As if I didn't already know that "there's money in making beer"!)
BTW: Don't confuse the son, Luther R Scammell who went to AEI, with the father, Luther Scammell.
And here's a pound sign or two: ₤ ₤ ₤ (Absolutely ALL of my "helpers" have disappeared now. Maybe it's time to do something about it ...)
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:24, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────FYI - I had a look at, and a play with, my preferences. I now have revived most of my lost functionalities. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:48, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I never dared investigate Preferences. Might find out something I didn't want to know :)
Do you know SA Library reprint of 1905 The History and Topography of Glen Osmond? Chapter on residences may be of interest; lists Alverstoke, Benacre, Birksgate, Claremont, Glenholme, Glenunga, Myrtle Bank, Ridge Park, Sunnyside, The Glen, Warrawee, Woodley, Wooton Lea. Doug butler (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

James R. Parsons[edit]

That's a nice little article! Pdfpdf (talk) 00:11, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. "Little" is of course the operative word.Doug butler (talk) 22:10, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Don't knock it. "They" say that good things come in small parcels, and I like the way you've covered everything important in so few words. Pdfpdf (talk) 04:35, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

FYI (?)[edit]

Meetup 12 June 2011

Hi! I just wanted to let you know that Liam Wyatt is in town, so we were thinking of doing a quick meetup at Brunelli's cafe in Rundle Street (at the Rundle Mall end, near the car park) at 6pm on Sunday, with a possibility of drinks afterwards. So if you're interested we hope to see you there. :) - Bilby (talk) 12:51, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! Sunday evening in the East End sounds MUCH better than either "the box" OR wikipedia. Given that Monday's a holiday, the Belgian Beer Cafe sounds like a stopping point ... Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:56, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes, the Belgian Beer Cafe was my thought, too. :) - Bilby (talk) 13:02, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh come on! Adelaide is not that small! Pdfpdf (talk) 13:08, 9 June 2011 (UTC) Hmmmm. On reflection, maybe it is ...

BTW: No, I don't really have any idea who Liam Wyatt is; is very depressing: He is younger, better looking, and has more hair than I do. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:40, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

It was actually easier to find Liam Wyatt by googling him rather than using WP, where his username is User:Wittylama. I have fond memories of the British Museum as I often went there for the gallery talks during my first years in London. I'll definitely be there on Sunday. And it looks like this old codger will win the hairiness stakes by a whisker. Cheers, Bahudhara (talk) 04:04, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. Pdfpdf (talk) 23:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC) (Perhaps I'll go quiet on the hair thing - I'm obviously at the wrong end of the scale ... )

Thanks Pdfpdf - would have been interesting. But out of touch - in ACT for grandson's birthday, and couldn't miss that. Happy retirement! Doug butler (talk) 12:32, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Happy retirement! - Not yet. I still have 2 years and 5 months of school fees. (But who's counting?) Pdfpdf (talk) 23:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually I was thinking of your (announced) retirement from editing. If you've repented/recanted you might do the honours with these articles: Thomas Caterer William Henry Mudie Doug butler (talk) 00:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
ROTFL! Hmmm. Oh well. As I said: "I wish".
No, I haven't repented/recanted (yet), but I'm happy to have a look in the next couple of days.
(chuckle) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 02:11, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Bickfords (Remember them?)[edit]

I was in a somewhat whymsical mood this morning, so when I got to the Cross Keys Hotel, instead of continuing up Port Wakefield Rd, I turned right and then left into Cross Keys Road. I got to the end of it without finding Bickfords, so I walked into one of the factories and asked to borrow a phone book. Yes, Bickfords are in Cross Keys Road, but they're in Cross Keys Road, Salisbury South, and I was in Cross Keys Road, Cavan. The whole of Parafield Airfield separates those two streets from each other!

Anyway, to cut a potentially endless story short, I eventually found Bickford's Australia.
(Kotses Australia just doesn't work, does it - but why the Kotses didn't leave it as A.M. Bickford & Sons is anyone's guess. Still, I shouldn't be rude - they're VERY nice people, and appear to be trying to be VERY helpful ... )

Apparently, the PR person wasn't in today. The charming lady at reception, and the charming young Kotses descendant she referred me to, were both more than a little confused by, and suspicious of, this random guy who had walked in off the street who knew more about the history of the company than they were willing to admit that they knew! Never-the-less, they were very polite, and both were sure that "there is a book somewhere" that covers the missing period (mid 1980s to mid 1990s), but couldn't locate it. After a while the charming young Kotses descendant reclassified me from "suspicious" to "harmless old git" and admitted that he, himself, didn't know what had happened during that period, and that he, himself, had always wondered! So, he took one of my business cards and promised to get back to me.

Watch this space. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 14:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

We were coming back from somewhere some six months ago and found ourselves in the back streets of Gladstone facing a rather unpretentious building Trend Drinks/F.C. Grubb . Got talking to the proprietor, who knows Angelo Kotses quite well ("very sharp guy"), mostly through trade shows and a bit of contract work. And there had been some threats of litigation over similarity of labels on cordial bottles (and reported on commercial TV). But he couldn't help fill in the "missing years", except to sort of agree with my contention that AK was an accountant involved in the winding up of the Bickford business and bought the name for a song. Doug butler (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
Aaah, Gladstone! Fascinating place. It and Terowie are on my "must visit when in the area" list. (Particularly Terowie). Did-ja-know Gladstone railway yard had 3 gauges in it for many years? I must dig out my photos and scan & upload them. In fact, I'll do it now! Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
P.S. That photo on the Terowie page is pitiful. I'd better find a Terowie photo, too. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)


Takes a lot of time loading each of the items into the commons and then situating them within the article. However, on a practical note, I simply don't have the extra time to spare. It really is not all that difficult to upload the images; it just takes a very long time. Also, with all of those listed under "Minties", the permission box will need to have these symbols without any gaps between them { { P D - A u s t r a l i a } } (I have written it this way so that you can see what is written, otherwise the computer keeps putting up an info box), which signifies that it is Australian and that it is out of copyright. You need to do three things:

(a) create an account on Wikipedia commons,
(b) download the image onto your own computer (best as a .jpeg) -- and, if you can't, first of all, do it as a .jpeg, then do it as a .tiff and, then, save that .tiff as a .jpeg, and
(c) follow the instructions at

(BTW, as the IP address here is constantly changing, there is no point in trying to get back to me on this, as it may well reach somebody else). Best of luck to you. If you are patient with yourself, you will find it rather easy -- although veeeeeery boring! (talk) 04:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Australian manufacturers[edit]

See my proposal to delete Category:Australian manufacturers as there are existing suitable categories for these companies Hugo999 (talk) 07:53, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Birralee, Belair[edit]

It sure is a pretty place! It's nice that it's being looked after. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:43, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
(P.S. I love the Hills Hoist in the back yard! Pdfpdf (talk) 10:43, 20 August 2011 (UTC))

Good pix. If you ever have five minutes to spare in Aldgate, check out the pile at the corner Arkaba and Coromandel Rds. Chapel annexe. Unbelievable garden ornaments. Someone said it was built for Charles Hawker or George Charles Hawker but I dunno.
New pages for your delectation (be gentle):
Reginald Stoneham
William Finlayson (churchman)
David McLaren (South Australian Company Colonial Manager)
Samuel Stephens (South Australia)
Justices of the Peace, South Australia 1862
George Hall (Australian politician)
Joseph Fisher (Australian politician)
John Howard Clark
Friends meeting house, Adelaide
James Robin
Doug butler (talk) 15:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
You've been busy! Pdfpdf (talk) 21:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Something to do with TV. Doug butler (talk) 22:41, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────By-the-way, (in case you didn't realise), if you put #REDIRECT [[User talk:Doug butler]] on User:Doug butler, it will change from red to blue. Of course, I realise that you may like it being red. Pdfpdf (talk) 22:47, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Never bothered me (I was born in 1944 when red was a respectable color). I had once thought of whacking up a userpage but can't summon the enthusiasm. Thanks for the suggestion and the {{od}} & <nowiki> markup tricks. Doug butler (talk) 23:13, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

South Australian Company[edit]

Oh dear! South Australian Company is a rabbit hole from which I may never emerge!
(e.g. Look at the impact you have initiated on Adelaide city centre.)
Fascinating. Thanks! Pdfpdf (talk) 12:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Congrats on an impressive piece of work. I just found there wasn't a piece on Michael Atchison. He did a piece in an alleyway in Aldgate (something to do with SALA 2007) which has just been desecrated by a tagger. Doug butler (talk) 23:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


What a lovely little summary! I'd forgotten how fond I was of his work. Nice work. Thank you, and thank you for bringing back those memories. Pdfpdf (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

A favourite keepsake is a beerglass (last of a set alas) with Atchison drawing accompanying (slightly ribald) Fatchen verse advertising Coopers Light. "There was a young lady from Maslins/ Let the air to a pair that were dazzlin' ..."
The page on Max Fatchen is a disgrace, but needs a better man than me to do it. Doug butler (talk) 08:32, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Family of William Burford[edit]

At W. H. Burford & Son#Family of William Burford you have listed 5 sons and 3 daughters = 8 kids. How many kids did he have? Also, you haven't quoted your source(s).

At Birralee, Belair I've lifted your words:

"Birralee" was later the home of Beverley Burford Beale (later Robertson), then Scotch College, then Repatriation TB sanatorium.

What was/were your source(s)?
Also, any idea when it was used by Beverley and Scotch College?
(Of course, I'm currently unable to locate where I found the Repatriation General Hospital dates! Ho hum ... )
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 23:03, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Beverley probably came from Trove. Scotch College may have been from Ninety Years at Torrens Park: The Scotch College Story By Peter Read, Alex Pouw-Bray but I misremember. Doug butler (talk) 23:20, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Yep! Lots of "good stuff" about both of them in both those places. Beverley was the daughter of youngest daughter "Allie", who died at Birralee Belair in 1925 - Beverley was quite a social butterfly! It's not clear where her father Octavius (an eighth son!) lived.
Also on the scene was Gwenyth, only daughter of Mr & Mrs J C Burford (about whom I can find almost nothing).
After the sale of Birralee Glenelg in 1921/1922, it looks like half of William's kids, and their spouses, and/or their kids (and, eventually, one of the grand-kids spouses!) moved into Birralee Belair.
By 1939 it looks like there were only two daughters and one son from the original 10 babies still living, (Mrs H C Park, Miss Emmie and Mr J C), and both daughters were living at Birralee Belair, along with Beverley & husband. (Not sure what happened to Gwenyth - she probably married her fiance and went & lived somewhere else. - Yep. Married a Verco and lived in Stanley St North Adelaide.)(J C was visited by Gwen in American River in 1950.)
Scotch College took over (bought?) the house (from who?) in 1942 - I haven't get found anything to cover the 1939-1942 period.
Well, I guess I'd better go earn my appearance fee at the office. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 00:52, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination of Friends meeting house, Adelaide for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Friends meeting house, Adelaide is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Friends meeting house, Adelaide until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:46, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

2 a.m.?[edit]

One might wonder why you are editing at 2 a.m. (Equally, one might wonder how/why I noticed - at 2:20 a.m.) Pdfpdf (talk) 16:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Hot on the trail of Thomas B Bennett, found two more beaut S.A. Register articles on JLY and AEI and listening to Rod Quinn. That's what passes for fun these days. Doug butler (talk) 22:49, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
LOL! (No fun in my case - late-night early morning free taxi service for teenage daughters ... ) Pdfpdf (talk) 01:20, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Jim Russell[edit]

Your recent edits made me realise that the article was a bit scant - have yet to go through all the references - you're welcome to give a hand. Dan arndt (talk) 07:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but I've exhausted my sources. Vane Lindesay and George Blaikie have nothing like the interesting stuff you found. I removed the 8 years at "The Referee" as way out of the court. BTW do you have anything on an B&W artist signed "Morrissey"? Doug butler (talk) 08:06, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Do you have any idea as to what strips or papers "Morrissey" is associated with or even the era?Dan arndt (talk) 08:45, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Also while I'm in the mood if there are any other Australian cartoonists that you think need an overhaul or creating drop me a line on my talkpage. Am thinking about creating Les Dixon, possibly Dan Russell or even Paul Wheelahan.Dan arndt (talk) 09:03, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Found while working on Minties article (several red links there). One of a series of "celebrated cartoonists", the rest of which really are household names. The cartoon is here and reminds me of Mercier (but not the self-portrait). I've emailed a few people and checked DAAO etc to no avail. An interesting problem. Doug butler (talk) 09:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
Well have done a quick search of my obvious references but can't find a trace of "Morrissey", have you tried contacting The Australian Cartoonists' Association - they might be able to give you a lead... Dan arndt (talk) 05:36, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Pat Oliphant[edit]

I can only guess that Pat Oliphant was considered as an American rather than Australian. It would appear that Oliphant is an American citizen, haven't been able to determine when Oliphant became a member of the NCS. Dan arndt (talk) 03:07, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I wonder where the information came from that he started as a copy boy for The News? He certainly made his name as cartoonist for The Advertiser (then a competitor of The News though bought out by News Limited some 20 years ago). Doug butler (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

By-the-way ...[edit]

Wishing you a (belated) Happy New Year!!! Pdfpdf (talk) 09:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Kung Hei Fat Choy! Now give me a red envelope. Doug butler (talk) 22:50, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


Also ...[edit]

FYI? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

A grand idea Wallace! But I keep getting sidetracked. How do you pronounce "Duryea"?
from User:Doug butler/Adelaide Educational Institution North Adelaide Grammar (John Whinham (1804?-13 March 1886) and son Robert (died 24 October 1884) later called Whinham College. notable students included (from They Built South Australia) John Ragless Brookman, Edmund Sidney Clark, John Henry Osborn Eaton, Arthur John Green. Doug butler (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Coopers Brewery[edit]

I'm currently entertaining myself here at the moment. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Make mine a draught Pale Doug butler (talk) 11:57, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Schooner or Pint? Pdfpdf (talk) 12:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I only drink schooners in NSW Doug butler (talk) 13:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
a) Can you get draught Pale Ale in NSW?
b) So that implies you drink Pints in SA(?)
Pdfpdf (talk) 13:40, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
a) A surprisingly large number of places. Wagga Wagga is a favourite.
b) Not many and not often but always enjoyed. (I suspect my attempt at a joke got ice on its wings - in NSW their schooner is our pint.) Doug butler (talk) 22:29, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Montefiore House[edit]

"Can you help me ... "

Short answer: Sorry, No. Longer (but no more helpful/useful) answer Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi! Can you help me with whether James Chambers' Montefiore House (whence John McDouall Stuart set forth on 25 October 1861) is the same as Samuel Way's, now part of Aquinas College? Doug butler (talk) 00:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Short answer: Off the top of my (aging) head, no, I can't confirm.
Personal opinion (without any supporting info): I wouldn't have thought so. I would have thought Montefiore House was West of Montefiore Rd. (And we both know Aquinas College is East of Montefiore Rd.) However, I have no data to support my predjudice. Sorry! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:46, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
Well, well!! Look what I found. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
But looking at User:Doug butler/James Chambers (pastoralist), it seems you have already worked that out.
(Better late than never? Perhaps not!) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

An award for you[edit]

A Barnstar!
Golden Wiki Award

Thanks for your recent contributions! (talk) 23:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

John Kerney[edit]

AFAIK there is nothing notable about John Kerney. In any case, why not write the article before adding a link to Captain Thunderbolt? Downsize43 (talk) 04:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. The gang was a bunch of misfits who created more fear than mayhem, and their death sentences were quite properly commuted. But Kerney figures in the history of Paul Foelsche, who's notable by any reckoning, and having adopted the Thunderbolt sobriquet is frequently confused with the real deal. Both Foelsche and Kerney are latent in userspace. Doug butler (talk) 09:42, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Rohan Rivett[edit]

Happy to contribute, but not quite sure what you want, or what I can contribute. The article looks pretty good to me. I could go through and make the odd tweak here & there, but it wouldn't add very much value. (If any.) What sort of help did you have in mind? Pdfpdf (talk) 14:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Thought the military history part might be up your street. Doug butler (talk) 14:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh! Now I understand your original request!! (Yeah, I know, some of us are slower than others.)
OK Chief, I'll get on it right away. (Well, "soon".) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:29, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Hmmmm. I don't seem to be making any progress.
So far, the best I can do is add a bit about his ~70 days avoiding the Japs, mention a bit about his capture on Java, then copy and slightly modify the 2nd paragraph from Burma Railway: Forced labour was used in its construction. About 180,000 Asian labourers and 60,000 Allied prisoners of war (POWs) worked on the railway. Of these, around 90,000 Asian labourers (mainly romusha) and 16,000 Allied POWs died as a direct result of the project. The dead POWs included 6,318 British personnel, 2,815 Australians, 2,490 Dutch, about 356 Americans and a smaller number of Canadians and New Zealanders.
Do you have any suggestions? Pdfpdf (talk) 14:15, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Spelling rules (from 50 years ago)[edit]

I was taught that Australians & British double the final consonant after a vowel before adding a suffix, and the Americans don't. So, I travelled to school daily, but US children traveled to school. In Australia, we still do mathematical modelling. In the US, they do modeling. However, I never was a particularly good speller.

Then along came the Macquarie Dictionary, and now I have NO idea how to spell!

Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 09:59, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, exactly my thoughts at the time. Doug butler (talk) 10:55, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The American rule, which often works for UK is double the letter if the syllable is stressed. Fortunately we can often get away with US spelling. I much prefer focused color and standardize. Doug butler (talk)
Yeah. I guess I'll just have to continue to put up with it. (Though I must confess that I don't particularly like it.) Never-the-less, I assure you that whatever I do think, I don't think it will cause end of the world. (On the other hand, I continue to have problems with most rap "music" ... ) Pdfpdf (talk) 12:37, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
The best argument I can put forward for orthography is that if you get the spelling right people might think you care about the facts too. Have you noticed the number of (professional, quite expensive) public signs and advertisements recently that fall hilariously short in this department? Doug butler (talk) 22:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
And a very good argument it is, too. There is plenty of evidence that there is a high correlation between accurate spelling and credability. (Similarly grammar.) Yes, I have noticed an increasing number of examples of mis-use of the language. The most visible example was Ken Cunningham on the back of many dozens of buses saying "your" instead of "you're". "Its" and "it's" seem to cause problems. And my personal pet peeve is the growing mis-use of "myself" rather than the much simpler (and accurate) "me". I guess I'm well down the path to becoming one of the planet's "grumpy old men". Pdfpdf (talk) 12:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
We saw the wonderful Miriam Margolyes' one woman show at the Festival Centre a few months ago. At the inevitable product counter was a poster Dicken's Women. KG eat you're heart out! Doug butler (talk) 13:51, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Hmmmm. A Tale of two city's, perhaps? Pdfpdf (talk) 14:02, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Altered speedy deletion rationale: User:Doug butler/Obsolete suburb names of Adelaide[edit]

Hello Doug butler. I am just letting you know that I deleted User:Doug butler/Obsolete suburb names of Adelaide, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, under a different criterion from the one you provided, which doesn't fit the page in question. Thank you. PhantomSteve/talk|contribs\ 02:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks I didn't know about {{U1}} I'll use that in future. Thanks for your service. Doug butler (talk) 02:50, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Michell Group of Companies[edit]

I have redirected Michell Pty Ltd to the more substantial article.--Grahame (talk) 01:48, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks. Doug butler (talk) 09:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


My personal (biassed) opinion (based on ignorance) is that there's enough information on the page to justify "going live". What's your opinion? Pdfpdf (talk) 17:14, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I've often had the same thought, but do the (hard won and rather useful) lists of prizewinners belong in a WP article?. Doug butler (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh. Good point. Hmmm. I'll give it some thought. (Surely there must be some way to justify them! I'm currently thinking along the lines that they could be placed on a "List of ... " type of page.) I'll give it some thought, and I'm open to any useful suggestions from anyone who might have useful suggestions. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

User talk archives[edit]

BTW how does one create a User talk archive? (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
There are lots of ways it can be done, some of them automatic, but I've had no success with the automatic ones, (and anyway, being the control freak that I am, I actually prefer to have control over what's happening.)
So I do it manually. And there are several ways you can do that, too.
Probably/possibly the easiest/best way to do it, (certainly a better way to do it than what I do, but I only discovered this method in the last year - had I discovered it earlier, I would probably use it), is the two step process:
1) Use "move page" to rename your talk page (e.g. move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler"/Archive 1")
2) "User talk:Doug butler" will then become a redirect to "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1". Edit "User talk:Doug butler" - remove the redirect and replace it with the stuff (copied from "User talk:Doug butler/Archive 1") that you like having on the top of your talk page.
Then, next time you want to archive, move "User talk:Doug butler" to "User talk:Doug butler"/Archive 2"
Hope that helps. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 13:38, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. That seems to have worked. Doug butler (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)