User talk:Nobs

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Jump to: navigation, search gentle to all, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves... 2 Tim 2:24-5

Southern Manifesto[edit]

Regarding The Southern Manifesto: Usually Wikisource articles only contain the actual text. In this case that would include the signatories, but not the (endless) list of people who did not sign. The current article contains some other material which would remain in Wikipedia. If you or other editors would like to cover elements of the history, such as notable politicians who did not sign, then that's appropriate too. Also, a summary of the manifesto itself should be in the Wikipedia article. Interested in writing it? Cheers, -Willmcw 21:53, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

Reply from User:Nobs[edit]

  • 'inter-generational non-consensual sex' is a term I read in the Albuquerque tribune March 6 2005 discussing current legilastion before the New Mexico State Legislature, I am busy recovering the source
  • links to my site contain only well researched information not available elsewhere on www
  • sorry my friend, I am a preofessional Research Historian and not in the business of self promotion. Nobs 21:26, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC) nobs
Hello Nobs -- The example you cite is therefore legal jargon if anything, but again, if one is passing a law to make something illegal, surely one is not using such terminology to avoid offending the offenders. And regarding the blog, please cite the source, rather than you blog. Please also see Wikipedia:No original research. {cross-posted to my talk page} Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 17:49, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I removed the links you added to your blog -- as well as "Pedophilia became inter-generational non-consensual sex". Please do not create or edit an article to promote yourself, a website, a product, or a business (see Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not). BCorr|Брайен 19:03, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

...will generally be automatically reverted. Cite original sources if you wish. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 20:30, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Request for AMA Assistance on Russell Tribunal[edit]

After reading your request for AMA assistance and the original article, I would be willing to listen and possibly assist you through your goals with this article. Please contact me at my talk page for further assistance. - KC9CQJ 02:46, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for being expedient. Do you have access to Instant Messenger or IRC so that we may collaborate? I've read the articles but would like to hear what you have to say in conversational form. KC9CQJ 04:29, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In the meantime, here's what I see to your question and what course of action I suggest -
  • The deletions in the target article Russell Tribunal mainly have to do with leaving the criticism area of the article blank or links to what I presume are your own personal blog. As you may or may not know, Wikipedia does not permit original research - Wikipedia only permits primary or secondary sources to my knowledge, that way we as editors may verify it. Wikipedia is not a place to publish your own content, like a blog - it is an encyclopedia written by all, and I believe one of the comments to you on the talk page referenced that, albeit in an interesting, yet possibly condescending tone.
  • The talk page commentary that you have gone through mainly is stating that although your point is valid, it does not belong within the article that you're trying to place it in. I noticed that your major premise for placing your notice within the Tribunal article is a footnote from Gulag Archipelago alone, and not major critical analysis or primary/secondary sourcing from the original author. If several different authors can be shown to say that one of the author's points in Gulag Archipelago was to point at the Russell Tribunal, so be it. Then it can be included.

These are the major points that are being made, I feel, and if we can find more primary sourcing that would indicate that this was some of the author's intent, then we can include it in the Tribunal article. If not, perhaps your contribution can find a place with the Gulag Archipelago entry.

Please find me on IRC in the #Wikipedia channel, contact me via AOL Instant Messenger at KC9CQJ, or e-mail me at kc9cqj(at)aol(dot)com , and we'll work on a resolution that fits the needs of Wikipedia and you. KC9CQJ 05:31, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

And as another note - looking at our own entry on Bertrand Russell from Wikipedia, there's a quote there from Solzhenitsyn - so it would appear, that with some thought and persuasion, we could get an entry into either the Russell Tribunal or Bertrand Russell article until I realized that you put that quote there :=). I would suggest that we go for a mention of the footnotes and quotes either in Gulag Archipelago or Bertrand Russell, but let's investigate that on the talk pages first. KC9CQJ 05:55, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Response e-mail with suggested course of action to your mailbox. KC9CQJ 03:09, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Looks like the anonymous IP user is being a spot of difficult. I think we should break for the Gulag Archipelago article and pull away from Russell Tribunal, but that's just me. Sorry I confused him using your name - I just like to use names because I'm in the customer service business. Later. KC9CQJ 10:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

IMF Article[edit]

Saw your post about wanting to re-work the IMF article w/out going through the cumbersom add/change/rv/talk process. In similar cases, I've found putting draft re-write in my user space to be very helpful. I can work on it, then post a link to it from the real page's talk page, allowing other users to comment/edit my draft version. It allows consensus to be reached more easily, b/c only those people who are really interested will take time to work on the draft copy stored in your user space. Once the draft stabilizes, do a massive overwrite of the original article w/ the new consensus version. There will be enough "consensus inertia" built up that your big changes are likely to remain unless you've added significant bias/POV to the new version. Feco 19:29, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I put a new section on my talk page (section name: Nobs' list)... feel free to add links to pages you'd like a review of. Out of curiousity, how did you come across my name in order to req. for a review? Feco 19:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
See User:Feco/Temp/Wal-Mart for an example of how to set up a temp page within your user space... allows for full wiki functionality. Just copy the directory tree structure, User:Nobs/Temp/IMF for example, and you get full wiki funcionality. Feco 19:42, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
This page is about the International Monetary Fund; IMF can also mean the International Metalworkers' Federation, a global union federation.
I looked at the IMF article in your userspace... I think it's a drastic improvment over the current article in wikispace. One minor comment... many users like having an "overview" graf or two above the table of contents. You may want to add one to your version, lest someone slap an ugly intro at the top of your hard work. Feco 01:31, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I also looked at the "live" SDR page in wikispace... I like your edits. Feco 01:31, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It looks like the IMF article has stablized for the time being. I think you did a great job. I don't think I can add too many specifics about the nitty-gritty of the IMF's policy actions and things like that... it's a little too technical for me. I agree with your comment (on my TALK page) about trying to kill the everpresent phrase "critics say", but I don't the hardcore anti-IMF folks will ever let that slip by. For the time being, I'm going to drop the IMF section from my talk page, but feel free to go back and leave me a note later if you want me to take another look. Feco 19:02, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Discussion of Carter Doctrine[edit]

 Responding to the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan that had recently taken place, the President stated:
Any attempt by an outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

This policy thus warned the Soviets away from Iran, which had just had a revolution and at the time was holding hostages in the United States Embassy, and from Iraq.

  • Response to above anonymous post:
  • Any attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

This policy thus warned the Soviets away from Iran, which had just had a revolution and at the time was holding hostages in the United States Embassy, and from Iraq."

To argue that "an assault" on Iran, a nation which

  • (1) had no diplomatic relations with the United States as of November 1979.
  • (2) had no trade relations, i.e. stopped shipping oil to the United States in November 1979
  • (3) was not part of any "collective security" agreement with the United States since November 1979

would be "an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America", even though the United States had no treaty obligations to do so, which would be repelled by "any means necessary", a vailed refernace to nuclear war is an incorrect reading of the Carter Doctrine.

  • The term "any", includes, but not limited to, Russia, Iraq, Mexico, al-Qaide, the mafia, the boy scouts, and virtually anyone.
  • the term "outside" is ambiguos; does it mean "outside the Persian Gulk region" or could it mean "outside the security umbrella of American collective treaty alliances"
  • the term "force" is used, and not the term "power", "nation", "state", or "government" etc. Hence it can include non-governmental entities, such as terrorist groups, etc, but may exclude boy scout organizations, for example.

And I beleive both former President Carter and Zbignew Brezhinski will support my arguement. --nobs

Historical method[edit]


Contemporaneous corroboration is a method historians use to establish facts beyond their limited lifespan. It is used to locate, identify and examine testimony of witnesses. It is similiar to methods used by police and lawyers based upon Mosaic Law, "by the testimony of two or more witnesess a matter is established." Literally it means, "at the same time the story is told by multiple witness."

(It differs from "contiguous", or sequential events, and "consequential" or the accumulation of events). It is the method used by Alexander Solzhenitsyn in accumulating the testimonies of witnesses in the Gulag Archipelago, which consequentely becomes a valid historical document. The wiki article qualifies it as such by lisitng the testimony of 217 witnesses. (Technically, it would be incorrect to say Solzhenitsyn "wrote" or "authored" the Gulag Archapelago as a "work of non-fiction", to use the phrase of librarians and booksellers; while Solzhenitsyn's personality and biases come through, it is fundamentally structured as a work of "Literary Investigation"...but lets not split hairs...).

In contemporaneous corroboration the researcher or investigator must put out of his mind any conclusions he may be aware of, so as not to discolor his judgement. For example, everyone knows the verdict of history as to who won World War II. Now if the investigator begins with the conclusionary premise: "How did this come about?", he is using the "reverse method", seeking out facts to support his conclusion, and perhaps overlooking evidence of enormous consequence. Under the "contemporaneous" method of investigation, the researcher is ignoring conclusions and seeking out the heart and soul of the matter that consequently led to conclusions. The reverse method is obvious on the Bertrand Russell biographical page, where originally it read:

Template:Insert quote

"papering" over and "reinveting" facts to support known conclusion. (With a click one finds all sorts of apologies Russell spoke in support of Bolshevism and other doctrines.) "Reinventing facts" differs from Revisionism.

Revisionist history has often been criticized in recent years as an effort to "rewrite history". Critics of Multiculturalism for example claim it is nothing more than an effort to rewrite American History and attack upon patriotism or other commonlly held repsected accomplishments and achievements. While at the same time many of these same critics call for revision of McCarthyism in light of the Venona Papers. Revisionism is neither good or bad, it is a constant process.

The contemporaneous method seeks to "live the life" of the event, beginning at a point in time and moving forward. The reverse method begins with a conclusion and works backward. And beginning with a conclusion, often arrives at the same result (one wonders why, having known in advance the result, someone would spend the time running in circles).

Contemporaneous method was demonstrated and popularized several years ago with the PBS tlevision documentary of Kevin Burns, The Civil War, an achievement in that medium for using historical narrative and still photography. Instead of traditional recreations by actors and set designers, the text was carried forward by studied historians speaking "in the present tense"--narrating events 130 years prior. This may have sounded peculiar to the lay audience yet employed the exact terms, form and method historians use to gain the time depth perception lacking when "looking back at events" lacking in the revers method.

For years after the TV event, it became fashionable for cop shows, both SWG (Hollywood Screeen Writers Guild) and Reality shows, to show "real time" investigationors recreating events of homicides and discussing sequences using the contemporaneous method--in the present tense--about past events, ignoring any judgementor conclusion already obvious. And the methods purpose is obvious, to gain a greater understanding of the contemporaneous event leading to the conclusion, not the conclusion itself.

The Tribunal page on its face, i.e. using the scroll bar, is improperly researched. Beginning and ending with a conclusion, it may persuade a partisan juvenile to a particular POV, but to a serious researcher it obviously would be the last place to begin researching the Russell Tribunal. It's not worth delving into seeing the conclusion is foretold, its lack of evidence, reliability of sources, etc. While on its face sections do appear to be reprints of valid historical documents, most probably are, the evidence is overwhelming that it is a mere "propaganda piece" -- the precise charge levelled against the original Russell event in 1967, and not a serious study of facts in evidence.

Pity, cause the original Tribunal could be exonerated for all its intentions, despite its failings, like all human endeveaours, if serious researchers were to investigate the varacity of the information presented. The casual reader is left with the feeling someone is trying to persuade someone of something. Truelly the spirit is eternal.

Other examples using the reverse method in wiki:
IMF page referred to Eurodollars 3 decades before they came into existence.
CENTCOM pages says Centcom came into existence in 1983 with no referance to RDF and its sources in 1977; National Security Directive-63 Carter Jimmy Carter Library and Museum, CBO authored by Alice Rivlin

Reexamining a verdit

Revisionist history

Progressive view of history

historical documents

Plato's Letters, No. 7, 341 B-E

Please de-activate categories[edit]

Nob, could you please de-activate the categories of articles you are editing on your talk pages? All you have to do is insert a colon (:) after the first two brackets, [[:category:U.S. history]]. Otherwise, your talk page appears in the category listings. Thanks, -Willmcw 03:16, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)


I don't think this abreviation for anti-Soviet agitation is in English language usage. But the article definitely must be written. Thanks for the hint. Mikkalai 21:21, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

thanks; I google myself. I started it already. You may take a look. Mikkalai

Re: Response[edit]

I replied on my talk page, user talk:willmcw. Cheers, -Willmcw 04:17, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Suleyman Ahmad[edit]

I'd be happy to help, but I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. If it's just a question of editing redirects, when you click on/type in a redirect, it puts a line under the title "(Redirected from Stephen Schwartz (author))"; if you click on the link in that line, it takes you to the redirect page, which you can then edit. If it involves page moves, I'm not sure I understand which pages you want to move where. - Mustafaa 05:16, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Gibbs article[edit]

Item 1.

The origin MAY have been in Iraq, but Iranian Shi'as are quick to point out that the Shi'a movement has evolved since those days. For example, after every friday prayer in Iran, the public shouts the slogan: "We are not the Shi'as of Kufa who left Ali alone". Kufa, in those days, was the Shi'a center of Iraq, if it ever had one. But I think the statements made in item 1 are generally accepted. Qum however was colonized. It had an indigenous population before the Arab arrival.

Item 2.

I think this view is widely held in Iran. Many people point to the "sarbedaran" rebellion as an illustration of this point.

Items 3,4,5,6.

One thing Ive heard alot in Iran is that they say that although Iran was a majority-wise Sunni country during these ages, yet Iranians felt a unique sense of sympathy for Ali and his Ahlul-bayt. i.e. they were Shi'a at heart. So there wasnt much of a big transition when the Safavids came around. But this is of course what I have "heard", mind you.

Item 7.

Im not sure what is meant by "the idea of Persian nationality was in due course created". I recall The Samanids and the Persian revivalist movements (that resulted in the Shah Nama) from several centuries earlier. However, The Safavids are

Also, the Safavid event wasnt really the first of its kind. Things were not so cut and dry to make the conclusions made here. For example, I have a copy of a book written during the time of Nizam ul-Molk, the great Seljuk Vizier, which shows that there was extensive debate going on between Shi'as and Sunnis in the court of Sultan MalekShah, with the Shi'as having the upper hand.

Item 8.

Im surprised that the items mention nothing of the Zoroastrian ties to Shi'ism that many scholars such as Ehsan Yarshater refer to.

Shi'ism may have opposed sufism, but in many ways it absorbed it too. What is the textbook "Al-Mafatih" but a collection of dhikrs? There is extensive overlapping between Shi'ism and Sufism, in my opinion. And besides, as I said, there has been lots of evolution been going on during these times.

Item 9.

I would also agree that "Shi'ism was not a natural outcome or expression of the national Iranian genius". Iranians were (and still are) philosophical renegades. They tend to rise out of the mold defined for them, and come up with new, often heretical interpretations of religion. Maybe that's why the aspect of 'aql is so emphasized by the Shi'a.

I think Shi'ism was not created by Iranians, but it certainly has strings attached to it.

Hope this helps. --Zereshk 02:35, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Russel Tribunal[edit]

Nobs, I understand the difficulties you are having with the Russell Tribunal, as I have had similar problems with the anon user on VVAW, Winter Soldier Investigation and another VVAW related article. Take it from me, dont expect a resolution any time soon if ever. Email me for some advice if you like, I know how to nail this one editor, I just need some more people. TDC 02:05, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

Check out Norinco now. All material is attributed and linked. It will be hard to revert and claim any kind of legitimacy. TDC 20:24, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)


I've set up the pages as requested, but if you look at "what links here" for St. John Philby, you will see that several links now need to be repointed to the new page name - I leave that to you. jimfbleak 05:06, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's now a James Jesus Angleton article to go with the link you added from Kim Philby. Buffyg 05:20, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks again re Jeb Bush article[edit]

Thank you very much for your kind words to me. There have been some nice people here. I am glad you posted. Thanks again. SummerFR 06:00, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) PS And, yes, I agree with everything you wrote about how they waste time with pointless arguments just to derail me. But, I will finish the article. And it will be fair, and, great. :)

Carter Doctrine[edit]

The Carter Doctrine was proclaimed by President Jimmy Carter in his State of the Union Address on 23 January 1980. In it he said:

Let our position be absolutely clear: An attempt by any outside force to gain control of the Persian Gulf region will be regarded as an assault on the vital interests of the United States of America, and such an assault will be repelled by any means necessary, including military force.

A 1980 pledge by Secretary of State Edmund Muskie went even further, putting the gulf states on notice that the United States would not allow anyone to interfere with oil tanker traffic through the Strait of Hormuz. At the time, Carter's statement was widely considered to encompass the use of nuclear weapons in response to a Soviet advance into Iran. In February 1980, details of a Pentagon report emerged indicating that the United States might have to use tactical nuclear weapons in response to any Soviet military advance toward the Gulf. To add muscle to these pronouncements, the Carter administration began to build up the Rapid Deployment Force, what would eventually become CENTCOM. In the interim, the president relied heavily on naval power. Carter expanded the naval presence of the United States in the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean

This redirection of U.S. national security policy was matched by an intellectual renaissance in the U.S. military. All the services began rethinking their strategy, operational concepts, tactics, and doctrine. By the early 1980s, the navy had developed what it termed the Maritime Strategy, a highly controversial concept even though it embraced the established post World War II practices of forward, offensive operations by carrier, amphibious, and attack submarine forces.

Initially this doctrine aimed at deterring the Soviet Union after its invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, but its application has been the result of different events and contexts. The Carter Doctrine has been applied twice; in 1990 during the First Gulf War and in 2003 for the Second Gulf War.

The Carter Doctrine was drafted to address the security of the Persian Gulf has grown in relevance after more than 50 years of American military presence in the region. President Clinton's Defense Secretary William Perry said in remarks to the Council on Foreign Relations: "Roosevelt was the first U.S. president to declare that the United States has vital interests in the region."

Elements of the Carter Doctrine[edit]

  • any outside force was deliberately ambiguous; does it refer to outside the region or outside collective security agreements.
  • any means necessary means not restricted to conventional warfare, i.e. the United States was prepared to use nuclear warfare if necessary to safeguard its vital interests in the Persian Gulf.

Though the foreign policy statement warned any outside force, it was widely regarded as directed at the Soviet Union, prompted by the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan the previous December. The major articulation of American strategic foreign policy interests also was intended to assure American allies in the Persian Gulf of American protection.

The problem at the time was a retracted U.S. force structure as a result of the Vietnam build down, and there was concern the United States did not have the military forces necessary to counterman a movement upon the oil wells or disruption of shipping within the region. Also the question of whether the NATO alliance was prepared or willing to participate in actions outside of Europe. If Amercian forces were withdrawn from Europe to counterbalance a threat in the Gulf, that would leave Europe vulnerable to Soviet expansion. Thus it became alarmingly clear that American vital interests, alliance commitments, and fighting capability was almost solely dependent on nuclear weapons moreso than conventional fighting capability.


So a concensus emerged to rebuild America's conventional fighting capability, beginning with a Rapid Deployment Force, the forerunner of CENTCOM which could be deployed from the United States to the Persian Gulf in the event of an emergency, without drawing down manpower from the NATO frontline.

Subsequent presidents have used the Carter Doctrine to safeguard America's vital interests since it was first articulated.


Category:Foreign policy doctrines Category:U.S. history of foreign relations

St. John Philby[edit]

Harry St. John Bridger Philby (3 April 18851960), also known as Jack Philby, also Sheikh Abdullah, was an Arabist, explorer, writer, and British colonial office intelligence operative. He was born at St. John's, Badulla, Ceylon and educated at Trinity College, Cambridge, where he studied oriental languages under E. G. Browne and was a friend of classmate of Jawaharlal Nehru, later prime Minister of India. Philby's son Kim Philby became famous for being a British intelligence agent who was a double agent for the Soviet Union.

As he states in his autobiography, he "became something of a fanatic" and "the first Socialist to join the Indian Civil Service", and was posted to Lahore in the Punjab in 1908. He acquired fluency in Urdu, Punjabi, Baluchi, Persian, and eventually Arabic languages. Philby married his first wife in September 1910, with his distant cousin Bernard Montgomery or "Monty", later commander-in-chief of Allied armies during World War II, as best man.

Arab Revolt[edit]

Philby is one of the lesser known but most influential persons in the modern history of the Middle East. In late 1915 Percy Cox, chief political officer of the small British Mesopotamian expeditionary force, recruited Philby as head of the finance branch of the British administration in Baghdad, a job which included fixing compensation for property and business owners. Their mission was twofold: (1) organize the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Turks; (2) protect the oilfields near Basra and the Shatt al Arab, which was the only source of oil for the Royal Navy. The revolt was organized with the promise of creating a unified Arab state, or Arab Federation, from Aleppo in Syria to Aden in Yemen. Gertrude Bell of the British Military Intelligence Department was his first controller and taught him the finer arts of espionage. In 1916 he became officiating Revenue Commissioner for Occupied Territories.

In November 1917 Philby was sent to the interior of the Arabian peninsula as head of a mission to Ibn Saud. The Wahabbi chieftan and bitter enemy of Sherif Hussein was sending terrorist raids against the Hashemite ruler of the Hejaz, leader of the revolt. For more than 700 years the non-Turkic Hashemite dynasty held title as Sharif of Mecca.

Philby secretly began to favour Ibn Saud over Sherif Hussein as "King of the Arabs", a difference with British policy, which was promising support for the Hashemite dynasty in the post-Ottoman world. On return Philby completed the crossing from Riyadh to Jeddah by the "backdoor" route, thus demonstrating Ibn Saud was in control of the Arabian highlands, whereas Sherif Hussein could not guarantee safe passage. Later he was awarded the Royal Geographical Society Founders Gold Medal for the desert journey. Back in Jeddah he met with an embarassed Sherif Hussein.

On 7 November 1918, four days before the Armistice, Britain and France issued the Anglo-French Declaration to the Arabs assuring self-determination. Philby felt the betrayal of this assurance, along with the Balfour Declaration and other diplomatic manouvres broke faith with the promise of a single unified Arab nation in exchange for aligning themselves with the Allies in the war against the Ottoman Turks and Central Powers.

Philby argued that Ibn Saud was a "democrat" guiding his affairs "by mutual counsel" as laid out in the Koran (Surah XLII. 37), in contrast to Lord Curzon's "Hussein policy". British policy on Arab affairs was wracked by rivalries between the Foreign Office and the India Office.

After the Great Iraqi Revolution of 1920 Philby was appointed Minister of Internal Security in the British Mandate of Iraq. He roughed out a democratic constitution complete with elected assembly and republican president.

In November 1921 Philby was named chief head of the Secret Service for Transjordan, or what is now all of Jordan and Palestine. He worked with T. E. Lawrence for a while, but did not share Lawrence's views on the Hashemites. Here he met his American counterpart, Allen Dulles, who was stationed in Istanbul. At the end of 1922 Philby travelled to London for extensive meetings with all involved in the Palestinian question. They were Winston Churchill, King George, the Prince of Wales, Baron Rothschild, Wickham Steed, and Chaim Weizmann, the head of the Zionist movement.

Ibn Saud adviser[edit]

Philby was of the view that both British and the Saudi families interests would be best served by uniting the Arabian peninsula under one government from the Red Sea to the Persian Gulf, with the Saudis supplanting the Hashemites as Islamic "Keepers of the Holy Places" while protecting shipping lanes on the Suez–Aden–Bombay route of the British Empire. Philby was forced to resign his post in 1924 on differences of allowing Jewish immigration to Palestine. He was found to be in unauthorized correspondence with Ibn Saud, which carried with it the connotation of espionage, sending information he gained in his post to Ibn Saud. He had "gone native". The Secret Service, however, continued to pay Philby for another five years.

Shortly after his resignation, Ibn Saud began to call for the overthrow of the Hashemite dynasty. Philby was able to advise Ibn Saud how far he could go in occupying all Arabia without incurring the wrath of the British government, then the principal power in the Middle East. By 1925, in the words of Philby, Ibn Saud brought unprecedented order into Arabia. Philby was put in charge of arranging Ibn Saud's coronation as king of the newly created state of Saudi Arabia.

Philby settled in Jeddah and became partners in a trading company. Over the next few years he became famous as an international writer and explorer. Philby personally mapped on camelback what is now the Saudi–Yemeni border on the Rub' al Khali where 126 degree daytime temperatures are not uncommon.

In his unique position he became Ibn Saud's chief adviser in dealing with the British Empire and Western powers. He converted to Islam in 1930.

In 1931 Philby invited Charles R. Crane to Jeddah to facilitate exploration of the kingdom's subsoil assets. Crane was accompanied by noted historian George Antonius, who acted as translator. In May 1933 Standard Oil of California (SOCAL) concluded negotiations with Philby for a 60-year contract to obtain the exclusive concession for exploration and extraction of oil in the Hasa region along the Persian Gulf. This marked the beginning of the decline of British influence in the region and the start of American influence. The personal contacts between the United States and Saudi Arabia were largely channeled through the person of Philby.

Meanwhile at Cambridge Philby's son, Kim, was being recruited by the OGPU of the Soviet Union. In recent years the theory has been propounded that Kim was recruited in particular to spy on his father, who had such powerful influence over the founder of the Saudi state and its connections with Britain and with American oil interests.

By 1934, in an effort to safeguard the port of Aden, Britain had no fewer than 1,400 "peace treaties" with the various tribal rulers of the hinterlands of what became Yemen. Philby undermined British influence in the region, however, by facilitating the entry of United States commercial interests, followed by a political alliance between the United States and the Saud dynasty.

In 1936 SOCAL and Texaco pooled their assets together "East of Suez" into what later became ARAMCO (Arabian–American Oil Company). The United States State Department describes ARAMCO as the richest commercial prize in the history of the planet. Philby represented Saudi interests.

In 1937 when the Spanish Civil War broke out, Philby arranged for his son, Kim Philby, to become a war correspondent for The Times. The same year Philby began quiet negotiations with Ben-Gurion to allow unlimited Jewish immigration to Palestine under Ibn Saud's protection.

Later Philby began secret negotiations with Germany and Spain concerning Saudi Arabia's role in the event of a general European war. These discussions would have allowed neutral Saudi Arabia would sell oil to neutral Spain which then would be transported to Germany. John Loftus, who worked in the United States Department of Justice Office of Special Investigations Nazi-hunting unit, claims Adolf Eichmann, while on a mission to the Middle East, met with Philby "during the mid-1930s".

Philby Plan[edit]

At a February 1939 meeting in London with Ben-Gurion and Weizman, Philby offered substantial Jewish immigration to Palestine if they would support Ibn Saud's son and eventual successor, Faisal, as King of Palestine. Months later, accompanied by Saudi foreign affairs official Fuad Bey Hamza, Philby proposed to Weizmann and Moshe Shertok (later Sharett) that they pay Ibn Saud £20 million to be used to resettle Palestinian Arabs. Weizman said he would discuss the plan with President Roosevelt. Kim Philby also was present at this meeting.

According to Philby the Zionist leadership accepted the "Philby Plan" in early October. However because of the kingdom's special status as home of the Islamic holy places, the plan was denied when Philby leaked it. The matter was not taken up again for another three years.

Meanwhile Philby ran for election to the House of Commons for the British People's Party declaring, "no cause whatever is worth the spilling of human blood" and "protection of the small man against big business". He lost and soon thereafter the war began. Because of his activities he was arrested when he travelled to Bombay on 3 August 1940 under the Defense of the Realm Act Regulation 18b, and was taken to England.

Friends such as John Maynard Keynes intervened, and after seven months he was released without prosecution. It is not known precisely who arranged for release. Shortly thereafter Jack Philby recommended his son Kim to Valentine "Vee Vee" Vivian, MI6 deputy chief, who recruited him into the British secret service.

When Harold Hoskins of the U.S State Department visited Ibn Saud in August 1943, he asked if the king would be willing to have an intermediary meet with Chaim Weizmann. In anger Ibn Saud responded he was insulted by the suggestion that he could be bribed for £20 million to accept resettlement of Arabs from Palestine. Hoskins reports the king said Weizmann told him the promise of payment would be "guaranteed by President Roosevelt." A month later Weizmann, in a letter to Sumner Welles wrote: "It is conceived on big lines, large enough to satisfy the legitimate aspirations of both Arabs and Jews, and the strategic and economic interests of the United States; . . . properly managed, Mr. Philby's scheme offers an approach which should not be abandoned."

When the war ended he returned to Arabia. In 1945 at the age of sixty he purchased his second wife, a 16-year-old girl, from the slave market at Taif, about forty miles south of Mecca. He continued work with ARAMCO. Talk in the king's circle was that Philby was an agent of British Secret service, a Zionist spy, and a communist. Philby began to provoke a series of spectacular arguments with the king. He claimed the disagreements were caused by the corruption and decadence that oil money brought the kingdom.

From Philby ARAMCO learned a great deal about Arabia framed in a manner to strike a sympathetic response in the American people. ARAMCO and the CIA became a revolving door for the same personnel. There were no other sources of information about that country available to the American public. Saudi Arabia was portrayed as "a mirror image of the Old West, a wide, unfenced land where nature was unsubdued, religion was simple and fundamental, and the law of the gun prevailed—the desert of Arabia, as America's last frontier." Little was said of the fanatical nature of Wahhabism or its dark and bloody excesses.

Suez Crisis[edit]

After Ibn Saud's death in 1953 Philby openly criticized the successor King Faisal, saying the royal family's morals were being picked up "in the gutters of the West". He was exiled to Lebanon in 1955. In exile he wrote:

". . . the true basis of Arab hostility to Jewish immigration into Palestine is xenophobia, and instinctive perception that the vast majority of central and eastern European Jews, seeking admission . . . are not Semites at all. . . . Whatever political repercussions of their settlement may be, their advent is regarded as a menace to the Semitic culture of Arabia . . . the European Jew of today, with his secular outlook . . . is regarded as an unwelcome intruder within the gates of Arabia".

While in Beirut he reconciled with Kim, and the two lived together. The son was reemployed by MI6 as an outside informer on retainer, with the assignment to spy on his father.

Jack Philby helped further his son's career by introducing him to his extensive network of contacts in the Middle East. Jack introduced him to President Camille Chamoun of Lebanon. Both were sympathetic to Nasser during the Suez Crisis of August 1956. Between Jack's access to ARAMCO and Kim's access to British intelligence there was little they did not know about Operation Musketeer, the French and British plan to capture the Suez Canal. The Soviet Union exposed the entire plan in the United Nations and threatened Britain and France with "long-range guided missiles equipped with atomic warheads."

In 1955 Jack reconciled with the royal family and returned to live in Riyadh. In 1960, on a visit to Kim in Beirut, while in bed with Kim at his side, he said "God, I'm bored" and died. He is buried in the Muslim cemetery in Beirut.

External Links[edit]


  • Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, Oxford University Press (2004)
  • Arabian Jubilee, H. StJ. B. Philby, Robert Hale, (1952)
  • Philby of Arabia, Elizabeth Monroe, Pitman Publishing (1973)
  • The Secret War Against the Jews, John Loftus and Mark Aarons, St. Martin's Press (1994)
  • Arabia, the Gulf and the West Basic Books (1980)
  • The House of Saud, David Holden and Richard Johns, Holt Rinehart and Winston (1981)
  • The Philby Conspiracy, Bruce Page, David Leitch and Phillip Knightley, Doubleday (1968)
  • Saudi Arabia and the United States, 1931-2002 by Josh Pollack (2002)

Philby, St. John Philby, St. John St. John Philby Philby, St. John Philby, St. John Philby, St. John Philby, St. John Philby, St. John

Prussia 1944[edit]

A phenomenae of madness and mayem that erupted among the multi-ethnic civilian population.

Req for Review[edit]

When you have a chance, can you take a look at User:Feco/Temp/Ricardo? I'm building a full explanation of the different international trade models, starting with the most basic. Each model explanation is far too long to be appended to the bottom of the basic model outline, so I'm building them on their own pages. Each model will eventually go into wages, prices, international equalization, etc. Ricardo is my first attempt. The nature of the material is relatively dense, but I've tried to make it as comphrehensible as possible to someone with minimal background in Econ. Let me know if you think it's readable/digestible.

It's still very much a work in progress, so ignore red wiki links, ALL CAPS notes to myself, and other things of that nature. Feco 23:43, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

== Sharif ==g ay gay gay

The Arabic (Urdu, too) word is شریف, and is pronounced "shuh-'reef" (long e). I would prefer "Sharif" as the commonest spelling and "Shareef" as the best. IMHO, let's try the latter. And be open to what the consensus of Wikipedia users want to go with. [This is often expresed by editing. :D] I am not an Arab myself, and would defer to someone from that region (Saudi Arabia and/or Jordan specifically—the family now rules the latter country), if I thought they were being reasonable.

Though I think Hussein bin Ali's name is often written "Sherif"--the early 1900s were a time of Turkish and French influence in the region.

One last thing, let me check how Lawrence (of Arabia) spells it in the Seven Pillars of Wisdom... yup: Sherif Hussein ... See:, etc.iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 19:14, May 2, 2005 (UTC)

Jesus article[edit]

Thanks for all the hard work. I think the best solution to the ballot box stuffing that just occurred is to publicize that this vote is going on. As noted on the Talk:Jesus page I posted a notice about it to the Wikipedia survey announcements page. Prior to the stuffing incident, almost all of the votes came from either current participants in the discussion there or the VfD link. This had the result of giving a slight majority to BC/AD, and voting patterns were fairly randomly distributed with it. Something seemed fishy when all of a sudden about 7 votes in a row go in favor of CE/BCE. Sure enough, the very same guy who was expressing his surprise that the tide of the vote had turned in an attempt to malign another editor had orchestrated the whole thing. The best way to handle these types of situations is to make them public. Jayjg doesn't like the fact that I aired his laundry and naturally he will attack me and attempt to backtrack over it. But the fact that it is being aired is more than enough to cast doubt upon the way he conducts himself here. BTW, have you noticed just how vile and bilious the pro-CE crowd is in general? Between all the personal insults, attacks on motives, unilateral edits, general disregard and contempt they show for consensus, 3RR violations, and now ballot box stuffing one's really gotta wonder... Rangerdude 05:27, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

No, actually I don't like the fact that you called one vote "ballot box stuffing", or that you claim I "expressed my surprise that the tide of the vote had turned", or any of the many other false claims you have made. Jayjg (talk) 06:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

List of Americans in Venona Papers[edit]

David Niles[edit]

No. 334, Moscow Center to Mexico City, 20 May 1944. However, for context see especially the previously released message, New York KGB to Moscow, No. 786, 1 June 1944, that mentions that friends of David Niles (a White House staffer) "will arrange anything for a bribe," i.e., get the transit visas for the Fishers.

External links[edit]

Jacob Golos[edit]

Russian-born Jacob Golos (birth name Jacob Rasin or Jacob Raisin) (died 1943) was a Bolshevik revolutionary and Soviet secret police operative in the USSR. He was also a longtime senior official of the Communist Party of the United States of America (CPUSA) involved in covert work and cooperation with Soviet intelligence agencies. During World War II he developed several large espionage networks of secret Communist party members who worked for the United States government and linked them to the Soviet intelligence. They are commonly referred to as the "Golos ring" of Soviet espionage agents. Jacob Golos was the "main pillar" of the NKVD intelligence network and they disliked his refusal to allow them contact with his sources. The code name "Sound" appears in the Venona decryptions as a Soviet source and was identified as Jacob Golos.

Golos was not merely a CPUSA official assisting the NKVD (an agent or “probationer” in KGB slang) but held official rank in the NKVD. The reference to Golos in the Venona decrypts as an “illegal colleague” corroborates Elizabeth Bentley's testimony.

The term “nelegal’ny sotrudnik” can be translated as “illegal colleague,” “illegal associate” or “illegal operative,” was Soviet espionage terminology for a Soviet officer or professional agent who operated without the protection of diplomatic or official status with a Soviet embassy, consulate or agency and usually with false documents. Soviet officers with the latter status were said to be “legal.” Golos also worked for the Society for Technical Aid to Soviet Russia and was head of a company called World Tourists, which while posing as a travel agency actually facilitated international travel to and from the United States by Soviet agents and CPUSA members. World Tourists was also deeply involved in passport fraud.

The NKVD suspected him of Trotskyism and tried to lure him to Moscow, where he could be arrested. The US government got to him first, prosecuting him in 1940 for being an unregistered foreign agent. But even then, he would not surrender his agents.

In the fall of 1942, a Communist cell of engineers was turned over to Golos for Soviet espionage purposes and Julius Rosenberg was the contact between Golos and the group. Golos believed this cell, the XY Line of engineers was capable of development. The XY Line began enormous efforts to penetrate the Manhattan Project, code-named ENORMOUS (ENORMOZ).

Golos lover, Elizabeth Bentley then took over the operation after Golos's sudden death in November 1943 (thus the reference in the decrpyts to him as a “former” colleague).

External link[edit]

Golos, Jacob Golos, Jacob

India Office[edit]

You might want to start Board of Control, as well - that was the predecessor of the India Office. I'm not sure about sources. General histories of the Raj would probably have some material. I also found [2], and [3] in a library search. john k 16:17, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

ABCDEF or G.[edit]

Yes, I believe we do agree. I wish others could be more agreeable.:( Nice to meet you, come visit my user page. --Silversmith 23:45, 11 May 2005 (UTC)


No, a ransom is something you pay to get back stolen property or kidnapped individuals. Jayjg (talk) 19:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

I needed a login for those references, which I didn't have. But see this:

ran·som Audio pronunciation of "ransom" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rnsm)

1. The release of property or a person in return for payment of a demanded price.
2. The price or payment demanded or paid for such release.

2. A redemption from sin and its consequences.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. --Jayjg (talk) 20:34, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, I suppose you could claim it, but it's an unusual usage. "Tribute" is a better fit, though. In any event, that's not the term used in the sources. If you can find a source describing it as ransom, that would be fine. Jayjg (talk) 20:46, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Discussion Deletion[edit]

On the "Allies" talk page, you removed a portion of the discussion pertaining to an ongoing article content dispute. Why did you do this? — Lifeisunfair 23:01, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

If I did it was a mistake. I'm terribly sorry. I'll be more careful next time. I did have trouble uploading before. Can it be restored? Nobs 00:31, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad to learn that this was unintentional. And yes, I've already restored the missing text, so there's no problem. Thank you for responding. — Lifeisunfair 02:22, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Causes of World War I[edit]


Specific questions... what I really want to know are the names of a few important scholars from the 20s-50s, and what the author thinks about the general trend in historiography. Also, I'd be interested if they mention what east german or russian writers have had to say.

I also quite like A.J.P Taylor, so you can poke around in there as much as you like. I don't know anything about links between the Okhrana and the Black Hand... is there actually any firmly established link? I've never heard anything about that, and it would certainly have profound implications, so I'd be careful about that.

I do think that this article can use a bit of work, putting some focus into it. Unfortunately this is notoriously difficult to do with wikipedia articles ;-) However, its a subject that quite interests me, so I'll keep poking around in it for a while.

Thanks for the help. Peregrine981 03:14, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

assistance uploading image[edit]

  • Need assistance uploading this image [4] for posting on this site St. John Philby, seeing I'm an idiot. Thanks. Nobs 19:01, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
    • is the image in the public domain? Do you have a link to the source info? Thanks - Chris 73 Talk 20:23, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

My proposal[edit]

Hi Nobs. Since it is my proposal, I want control over the contents of the proposal. If you think that in my proposal, I misquote or misrepresent you, please do let me know and I will make an appropriate change. Also, I encourage you to express any of your thoughts in one of the discussion sections. As for voting, I have unprotected the page. I am not sure I understand your question. If you object to my proposal vote no, if you like it vote yes. If you aren't sure, take your time to think about it, make comments in the discussion sections, ask other people questions. Or, consider formulating your own proposal! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:58, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your view. I know that atheists do use BCE/CE. However, anyone who claims that BCE/CE means that God does not exist is just flat out wrong. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:38, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Redirects are easy[edit]

#REDIRECT [[target page name]]
That's all :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 20:41, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

the Bible article[edit]

FYI, I did not do anything to the "200 BCE" figure. That is what the text had when I went to the page. The only change I made was to change "100 CE" to "200 CE" as the outside date for the close of the canon. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:00, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Good job[edit]

Your placing the Katherine van Wormer issue in as an external link in the Junk science article is precisely what I have been talking about. I appreciate your effort in labeling what her opinions truly amount to.--MONGO 02:15, 20 May 2005 (UTC)


Do you consider it 'non essential vandalism' (sic) to insert that the Rosenbergs were Jewish?Linuxlad 16:48, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Personally I beleive Rosenberg's faith (and/or race) is nonessential to the subject. News organizations have ceased to identify suspects and those convicted of crimes by race or religion about 1982 (its part of Journalistic ethics now). Only serves prejudice and bigotry, and is entirely non-essential to the article, if not irrelevent. Nobs 17:00, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems quite useful to me that so many of the key characters are American-Jewish - eg i wouldn't eg be able to appreciate the power of Doctorow's book unless I knew that it was in that tradition - I think you're being too PC, sorry. In a similar way it's relevant to know that many British leftists, from the key players in the civil war to the 'Pentridge martyrs', were part of a non-conformist tradition. Bob

Assuming one subscribes to the "Left-Right Political Spectrum Theory" of Max Weber. User:Nobs

Plato dialogues naming survey[edit]

As an active participant in the discussions on Category_talk:Dialogues_of_Plato, I wanted to draw your attention to my survey proposal. This would likely bring in a number of outside and (presumably/hopefully) objective views - at the least, a fair enough number to make a consensus at the conclusion. Surveys need to be discussed by the involved parties ahead of time in order to come to an agreement as to their content, and thus make them valid. If you have the time, I'd appreciate if you got involved. Thanks! --Girolamo Savonarola 23:19, 2005 May 23 (UTC)

Bolesław Gebert[edit]

Strange, I must admit I never heard of the guy before, nor could I find any info on him over the Polish encyclopaedias. On the other hand he might be somehow related to Konstanty Gebert, who is a notable journalist and war correspondent as well as one of my personal favourites when it comes to journalism. He speaks English, so you might want to contact him and ask whether they are relatives. Halibutt 19:07, May 27, 2005 (UTC)

A Modest Suggestion[edit]

You seem to be using your User page (and that of User:Nobs01 as a scratchpad for developing new material. I believe this is a bad practice because it is publicly available to the world, and can be edited and/or currupted by any one; a nuisance. I think you might like to create a page called User:Nobs/scratchpad or any other name you might like to choose. Several such pages can be created, for different uses. The main advantage would be that of relative privacy until the material is ready for publication, but it would also allow your User page to be used to present material linked more closely to your own persona, introducing you to those who don't know you, as most other users do. Too Old 19:33, 2005 Jun 1 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm a newbie and technoidiot so any advice is extremely valuable. Will do. Nobs01 19:44, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Houston Chronicle mediation[edit]

I've heard you were involved in a content dispute on this page, so I'm asking you if you'd be willing to talk about your views on the matter to help mediation. Please indicate if you are willing to do so and promise the follow these rules.

  1. You won't edit the article while mediation is ongoing. Suspected sockpuppeting should be reported to me personally for investigation.
  2. No comments aimed at the other party or their edits should contain loaded language that can be construed as offensive or otherwise hurtful.
  3. Mediation should be done in good faith without regard for previous editing behavior.
  4. Comments should be made about the other person's edits and not them as a person. If possible you should try to bring sources to the table which I can review.
  5. If, somewhere along the way, you think there's a possibility to reach an agreement on any of the disputed points, let it be known as soon as you can.

Please respond on my talk page as soon as you can. -- Mgm|(talk) 18:46, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)


Hi, sorry I've been slow to get back to you. I'm generally loathe to get involved in articles where there are strong, opposing views; one can make the article perfect, take one's eyes off it for some months, and find it turned back into dreck. So I'm not really that interesting in being part of the Magdoff mess; I haven't read the last couple of days postings over there yet.

I took a quick look at the article, and had some initial suggestions; I'll look at it in more depth later. My main reaction is that he was probably a minor source for that network, and so his actions as a source really aren't that important in his bio; worth only couple of sentences. It's only of much consequence at all because of the resulting controversy, particularly in the 1950's, which deserves a bit more coverage.

So I'd make a section called something innocuous like "Allegations of involvement with Soviet intelligence networks", with two subsections. One would be called something like "Mogadoff as a source", which should be very short, and state briefly Bentley's statement that Mogadoff was a source, and the occurence of his (clear-text) name in VENONA and Comintern traffic. The second could be longer, and would be called something like "Mogadoff and the US Government", and discuss his being called before the Senate committee (was McCarthy on the one he was called before, or not - if not, it would be good to point that out), and the impact on his career.

More later. Noel (talk) 18:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)


Thanks for your email and your time. Let me know if I can be of any help. Ultramarine 09:41, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda → Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda conspiracy theory - name change vote[edit]

Hello, there is a vote to rename Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda to Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda conspiracy theory. The voting is here: Talk:Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda#poll on changing the name of this_page. I would appreciate it if you could vote. Thanks. ObsidianOrder 06:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Articles for deletion nomination of Contemporaneous corroboration[edit]

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I have nominated Contemporaneous corroboration, an article that you created, for deletion. I do not think that this article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and have explained why at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Contemporaneous corroboration. Your opinions on the matter are welcome at that same discussion page; also, you are welcome to edit the article to address these concerns. Thank you for your time.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message. EALacey (talk) 22:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open![edit]

You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 12:58, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Nathan Einhorn[edit]

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The article Nathan Einhorn has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing Wikipedia:General notability guideline and the more detailed Wikipedia:Notability (biographies) requirement. If you disagree and deprod this, please explain how it meets them on the talk page here in the form of "This article meets criteria A and B because..." and ping me back through WP:ECHO or by leaving a note at User talk:Piotrus. Thank you.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 18:38, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of Nathan Einhorn for deletion[edit]

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Nathan Einhorn is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nathan Einhorn until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:07, 8 January 2018 (UTC)