Wikipedia talk:Notability (web)

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This guideline covers several related areas. Please see discussions on website sub-types at:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Webcomics
Wikipedia:WikiProject Blogging
Wikipedia:WikiProject Early Web History


Did I boil WP:WEB down too far with this?[edit]

[1] or is that a reasonable test? Thanks! - Richfife 15:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

  • As a test, that sounds way too subjective to me and I don't think it's backed up by the current WP:WEB. After all, a niche site may well get attention from niche publications, which would satisfy WP:N as well as WP:WEB. Whether or not it is well known or being on Wikipedia would raise its profile is irrelevant.Chunky Rice 16:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Looking at the whole discussion, though, what you're talking about is better covered by Wikipedia's external link policy (WP:EL), than WP:WEB.Chunky Rice 16:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Thanks! - Richfife 16:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Trivial references[edit]

Aren't criteria 1 and 3 largely redundant? That could be worded better. DreamGuy 20:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

What about software? What about programs?[edit]

Several WP editors lately have been speedy deleting articles on software and programs based on CSD:A7 criteria, non-notability. I believe this is a misreading or corruption of the guidelines for notability, resulting in the loss of valuable articles and valuable data. Once speedy deleted, the original articles are not even available for reconstruction or review. Some of these articles required extensive work to enter into WP in the first place.

And most of the time the editors doing this speedy deletion are completely ignorant of the subject area and use bogus criteria for citing the need for speedy deletion. In a recent case (Tranche (software)), this very guideline here was cited -- the program in question is used by biology researchers internationally for trading data, and the program is freely distributed over the web. The editor who decided on his own that the topic was non-notable and therefore subject to speedy deletion later stated:

In this case, it didn't seem that notability had been asserted when I CSD'd it and also it seemed to me to be web content. (The guideline says that any content which is distributed solely on the internet is considered ... as web content.)

The comment above linked to WP:WEB, which is this guideline article.

What about software? What about programs? Your guideline says nothing about these, especially with regard to software or programs that are distributed via the web or operate on the web. What you do say is:

Web content includes, but is not limited to, webcomics, podcasts, blogs, Internet forums, online magazines and other media, web portals and web hosts. Any content which is distributed solely on the internet is considered, for the purposes of this guideline, as web content.

This says nothing about programs or software that are distributed and/or run on the web.

Do software packages and programs fall under these web notability guidelines? And if so, what should be the guideline with regard to speedy delete vis-a-vis CSD:A7? I favor never ever tagging any software package or program with speedy delete, always tagging with AfD. One of the major reasons for this is that the editors here are often too ignorant of the field... being a user of the web or of software products does not make you an expert of the entire field... and the field is changing and evolving at an increasing pace.

The irony of all of this of course is that Wikipedia itself is software/program that is distributed by and run on the web. - 11:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The editors have completely ruined wikipedia. Their goal is not to be helpful but instead simply tag everything with speedy delete, especially when it comes to items they are completely ignorant of. The main objective is to get articles deleted instead of getting notable items properly sourced and formated. I am completely and underly disgusted with these over zealous egomaniacs. They have shunned any dissenting opinions only accepting ideas that come from people who have homogenized them self to the group. The entire editorial group on wikipedia has a serious case of group think and its driving would be contributors away. But who cares about adding new things to wiki and making it better when we can all go out and give each other barn stars. I have actually seen the editors cheering each other on about how many articles they managed to get deleted per day. Disgusting. Zynkin 22:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Because their rule is that, anything unknown and ambiguous, must be deleted. One Editor deleted my article on Matlan Marjan, the scorer of 2 goals against England, because he does not know what football is, and that England is a international team.

I finally managed to get it listed, but it is like teaching a child about basic knowledge.

If their command of language is good, it is a different story altogether. While arguing that my blog cannot be used as reference, he allowed the deletion of many other legitimate references and text based on these references.

By right, editors should be limited to the fields that they are good at. They must be verified on their expertise on particular areas. For example, non Malaysian editors should not be allowed to delete any Malaysian topics, especially speedy deletion. Non biologist editors should not be allowed to delete any biology article. Othmanskn (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Podcast Awards[edit]

Are the Podcast Awards so notable that being nominated for one meets the requirements for an article about a podcast to be kept as notable? Corvus cornix 20:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

  • While it's rather subjective, I'd say yes based on substantial spillover notability. --xDanielxTalk 08:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • No, the Podcast Awards article itself has no reputable third-party references. -- Dragonfiend 15:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


It says my page 75bg is under speedy deletion. I don't think it should be deleted. It's an important topic. I don't care that it's a web page, it doesn't JUST talk about what the site has to offer. It talks about its achievements and history, all of which is totally important. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joeblowss1 (talkcontribs) 03:24, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

A question about Foldoc[edit]

Mrzaius has tagged this article as lacking notability. Since I think it's notable, I read this guideline to be sure I get my evidence straight. And now I have a question.

When I run a Google Scholar search on "foldoc", I get 937 hits. That's a large number of hits on this fairly restrictive search engine, in my experience. But when I look for an article about foldoc, I come up mostly empty. Ok, I haven't checked all 937 references yet. I don't suppose I will because it would take too long. But I have looked at quite a few of them.

Many of the g-hits use foldoc as reference material. That is, they refer the reader to this free internet dictionary for an authoritative definition of a possibly unfamiliar term. This is not the same thing as making foldoc the subject of a scholarly article. But to me, this sort of usage is even more significant than an academic study of foldoc itself. If authors of scientific articles published in refereed journals use a web site as a reference, isn't that sufficient evidence that the web resource is notable?

So that's my question. I think this guideline is too restrictive. Foldoc is clearly notable, in my opinion, but I'm not sure how it can qualify under this guideline as it stands. Comments? Suggestions? Thanks! DavidCBryant 18:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  • No, being used as a source is not more significant than being the topic of an article. FOLDOC is the topic of about a third of March 6, 1995 "THE ON-RAMP" column by Larry R. Moffitt in The Washington Times on Pg. C15. It covers the basics ""The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing (FOLDOC)" by Denis Howe ... is 'a searchable dictionary of acronyms, jargon, programming language, tools, architecture, operating systems . . . in fact anything to do with computing.' Started 10 years ago, it now contains 8,237 definitions, cross-referenced, and is frequently updated as users supply new words." Prasanna Raman of Computimes in Malaysia also wrote on January 13, 2003 on Pg. 26: "The Free On-Line Dictionary of Computing ... is a searchable dictionary of acronyms, jargons, programming languages, tools, operating systems, networking, theories, conventions, standards, mathematics, electronics, institutions, companies - in fact, anything to do with computing. The dictionary, under the copyright of its editor, Dennis Howe, has been growing since 1985 and now has over 13,000 definitions totalling nearly five megabytes of text." Adding those references about the topic ought to help. --Dragonfiend 22:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Non-web forums?[edit]

Do/should these criteria apply to online sites in general, in particular, Usenet newsgroups? I ask because of the many Usenet newsgroups which have articles (see List of newsgroups and Category:Newsgroups), without having obvious notability. alt.atheism is currently up for deletion, but there appears to be no consensus yet for newsgroups in general? Mdwh 22:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  • This guideline is pretty much common sense: Notability equals information on the importance of the subject from referenced sources. Yes, you can apply it to Usenet newsgroups or other Internet forums. --Dragonfiend 23:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


I have proposed that the notability subguidelines be deprecated with the salient points being merged into the main notability guideline and the remaining subguidelines merged & deprecated to essay status. Please join the centralized discussion at Wikipedia talk:Notability#Merge proposal. Vassyana 01:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Download availability[edit]

Does the amount/volume/notability of the sites that people can download a software application from play any role in their notability? I've been looking at various lists of software and have been trying to determine what is a correct threshold on which to nominate individual applications. • Lawrence Cohen 16:55, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No, being available on a number of download sites isn't a "notable" achievement. Instead look for "multiple non-trivial published works" about the software. --Dragonfiend 17:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
OK, thanks. • Lawrence Cohen 18:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

respected & independent medium?[edit]

Criterion 3 would seem to suggest a consensus that podcasts distributed through an independent vendor like iTunes are notable. Am I reading this correctly? I've encountered on CSD an article that defends its notability only with the following, "It is distributed via direct download from the website, or from Apple's iTunes Store. There is no download charge from either source." Would such be sufficient assertion of notability to survive speedy? --Moonriddengirl 12:53, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

iTunes looks like trivial distribution; that is, it looks like anyone can have their podcast distribitued on iTunes. See the iTunes guide to making a podcast. Their rejection criteria (Strong prevalence of sexual content, Apparent misuse of copyrighted material, child pornography, etc.) sounds about as stringent as YouTube or geocities. So, no, having a podcast on iTunes does not look like a notable achievement. --Dragonfiend 17:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Sounds to me like triviality of independant web hosting needs to be explicitly defined as any "free" or "open" offer to host something for anyone. That said, it's all well and good having clear exclusion guidelines, but what exactly defines a publisher/distributor as nontrivial? I've seen a lot of people dismiss sources that clearly aren't analogous with either of the trivial examples, and the article get deleted. Any thoughts on clarifying this? --54x 20:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Criterion 3 doesn't seem to make sense. The website must be distributed independently through a respected medium? Lots of notable websites are privately-owned individual sites. Most websites which are distributed through an independent medium are not notable. Most notable websites are self-published. That's the beauty of websites. This needs to be seriously rethought. Impin | {talk - contribs} 09:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not aimed at websites so much as other items distributed through the web. Consider two blogs, X and Y, otherwise similar in content. Blog X is self-published. Blog Y has an address at and is featured on the Wired website. Blog Y meets criterion 3: being featured by Wired suggests that the blog has a sufficient level of notability. —C.Fred (talk) 15:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. The only blog I read regularly, The Big Picture, is published by its author through Typepad. Another major one that I read, The Economists' View, is published on Blogger. Many of the major blogs publish independently; if you're truly famous you don't need to be with a group. This criteria should be taken off, and we should judge notability based on reliable sources and traffic ranking alone. Should I open a RFC? I honestly want to get rid of this confusing requirement. Impin | {talk - contribs} 17:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Criteria 3 is not a "requirement." Quote: "web-specific content is deemed notable based on meeting any one of the following criteria." Empahsis is in original. --Dragonfiend (talk) 16:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Must article pass each criteria?[edit]

Must all three criteria pass, or any two, or just any one? It reads as if all three must pass but that seems counter to (my) common sense. Is there a missing "or" after each one? Also could someone review my proposed answers in bold on the Talk page for Bobbins (webcomic) to see whether I have understood the general sense of the guideline? -Wikianon 11:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The other notability criteria pages (general, books, academics) all specify that one of the primary conditions must be met. I don't see why this would be any different, or for any of the criteria, in fact. • Lawrence Cohen 14:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Notability isn't supposed to be hard to meet. It's meeting WP:V and WP:NOR while maintaining a good article that's the real test, I believe. That said, those two criteria don't condemn an article to deletion like Notability does- you can easily merge & redirect while you wait for more verifiable sources to justify an indepentant article, then restore via the edit history when appropriate. --54x 08:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Inheritance and notability by association[edit]

If multiple notable writers/artists have contributed non-trivial content to a website that is first published at the website or unpublished elsewhere, should the website be considered notable? Skomorokh incite 20:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

If another source has noted that the site has published a number of notable works, then yes. Being a place where notable authors go to first publish their work is definitely a good foundation for establishing historical notability. You just need a secondary source that states it (i.e. some newspaper or trade magazine reports how a number of hot authors are using site x). Buspar 22:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
That's unfortunate, I was hoping the notability of contributors alone would suffice. Surely The Huffington Post would be notable even without third party coverage? скоморохъ 12:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a Web Directory[edit]

Wikipedia used to be extremely useful for a lot of things. Perhaps it should be acknowledged in the article here that while "Wikipedia is not a Web Directory" it can include comprehensive lists of useful links if volunteers choose to adequately label and organize the information despite the propensity of some people to show up and claim anything not already listed in an article at Wikipedia is not yet "notable" enough for a list at Wikipedia. Pretending things are not notable because Wikipedia has not previously logged their existence is a quick path to stagnation as people who would write about new things leave for greener pastures. Lazyquasar (talk) 20:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I was actually shocked to read this criteria. It means that almost all articles had broken this rule in providing the "external links".

When I first discovered Wikipedia, I was not impressed with the articles. It was the links which are provided, especially the external links, that are not even referred to in the article.

In fact the first thing that I do is to observe the external links. Thea articles are mostly useless to me because they are repetitions of what I already know, said in different and confusing ways.

The external references are different because they are the experts in the subject. The important external references are research organisations, universities and organisations such as NASA, manufacturers, clubs and forums.

There is no need for them to win awards. I don't recall any of my favourite site of having any award at all. One was a startup company specialising in experimental diesel engines. It is not even manufactured yet but useful because I need to be ahead of things.

Alas these are actually breaking this "not web directory" rule. The only way to include in the external link is for the site to win awards. Almost all the external links that I come across in wikipedia have not won awards, and even those that had won them, it was for last year. They may not even win any award this year. Every year, the award keep on changing.

No blog at all. When industry heavy weights all have blogs and newspapers keep on quoting from blogs, wikipedia risks becoming a dinosaur. Although there is mention of blogs which are allowed that are quoted by newspapers, there is no blog mentioned in the articles that I scan through. The most important is Iraq. Recently Myanmar. No blog at all in these external links despite so many quotes from newspapers. In fact reliable news about these places can only be found from blogs.

If wikipedia wants to be relevant as a centre of information, this policy must be clearly defined and explained. Otherwise it will just become a rigid highly censored source of information that cannot be relied on.

Othmanskn (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 12:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This relates to the dispute at Sabah, where Othmanskn (talk · contribs) has used her personal blog which was reverted on the basis of WP:RS and WP:SPS. I made comments in regard to that, as an uninvolved editor from third opinion, here. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 02:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Google News and Criteria 3[edit]

Does being syndicated through Google News (or similar aggregators) satisfy criteria #3? -- pb30<talk> 17:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it should as Google News, unlike Google itself is quite selective; it chooses only ~4,500 out of the millions of blogs and websites online as sources, and its choice is by human editorial input rather than algorithm. This makes the selection of a given source by Google News far from trivial, thus fulfilling criterion 3. скоморохъ 12:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Do the 'Podcast Awards' Satisfy C2?[edit]

There's a section on this up above, but no firm consensus seems to have been reached. I've been wondering if winning a People's Choice Podcast Award would allow a podcast to pass wp:web under C2. Any other thoughts on this? If no, what other awards do satisfy C2 for podcasts? -- Vary | Talk 01:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Any award notable enough to have its own Wikipedia article and which is independent of the recipients satisfies C2, in my opinion. Buspar (talk) 00:09, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

"In a nutshell" section[edit]

For consistency with other articles describing Wikipedia guidelines, there could be an "in a nutshell" section at the top of the page. Here is a sampler:

Other suggestions for the wording would be welcome. --♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 09:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

  • "long lasting" will likely be misinterpreted as "website has existed for years, therefore it's notable." We should use the "historical significance" language from WP:NOT#INTERNET for clarity. Also, this guideline is about articles about websites, not websites being used as sources. So:

--Dragonfiend (talk) 14:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, here is an almost identical version:

--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 15:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


Does this guideline include smaller Wikipedias (but larger than 1000 articles)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Please Help![edit]

I'm very new to the editing world of wikipedia. I'm trying to figure out how to reference a website. I believe it is reliable because it was written by a university professor. Can someone please tell me how to reference a website properly. Do I use APA or MLA format? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alice9 (talkcontribs) 03:43, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Replied on Alice9's talk page. Somno (talk) 03:50, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Award nominations and notability?[edit]

So winning a notable award is considered a way to classify notability. So is being nominated over multiple years. Does being nominated in multiple categories on the same year count? For instance, the webcomic PX! was nominated for two Will Eisner Awards this year. Is that enough? Blade (talk) 20:24, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Consensus has been "won a well-known and independent award." So, nominated doesn't really work, nor is every award that is "notable" for wikipedia "well-known and independent." In this case, I'd suspect PX would have some sources that we could use to write an article, so I'd suggest we look for those. --Dragonfiend (talk) 21:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
how are the nominations conducted? is it essentially a list of finalists, or can any site at all be nominated? DGG (talk) 03:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Exception to criterion #3[edit]

I believe that the exception to criterion #3 needs to be revised, because the examples may be seen as outdated. Currently the exception reads: Trivial distribution such as hosting content on entertainment-like sites (GeoCities, Newgrounds, personal blogs, etc.)

I would revise the exception to say: Distribution on non-selective services which allow the public at large to distribute content through them (such as MySpace, YouTube, Geocities, Newgrounds, Blogspot, other personal blogs, etc.). MySpace, YouTube, and the like are notable services, but merely posting content on these services is not enough to establish notability.

This change was inspired by the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Pink Flamingo. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

That's not a direction that's acceptable to me. As proposed, being on Google news would statisfy that, but experiance shows (despite the description above) that lack of reliability selection for inclusion in the news aggregation means it is "trivial." (If pressed I can defend this with facts, of course, I'm just too lazy to do so now.) I agree that the existing is sub-optimal, but instead how about Trivial distribution including hosting content on sites without editorial oversight (GeoCities, Newgrounds, personal blogs, etc.)
brenneman 01:29, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
I appreciate your suggestion of the phrase "without editorial oversight", but I think it is essential to specify MySpace and YouTube as examples of sites that don't have editorial oversight and thus, having content there doesn't prove notability. As stated above, I saw on an AfD someone trying to use publication on MySpace as proof of notability, since MySpace is notable and not controlled by the creator of the content -- which is true but should be irrelevant, since anyone can create a MySpace page. Furthermore, MySpace and YouTube are currently more popular than Newgrounds and Geocities, and so people are more likely to cite the former nowadays. So how about Trivial distribution including content being hosted on sites without editorial oversight (YouTube, MySpace, GeoCities, Newgrounds, personal blogs, etc.). (I changed "hosting content" to "content being hosted" since YouTube, MySpace, etc. are the hosts in these examples.) --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Contribute, don't ego-police[edit]

Articles which make Wikipedia a better place for information seekers is the true criterion. This is common sense, which by the way is the only real consensus. If you really want to police more than contribute, go ahead and put WP:WEB up for speedy deletion; as it stands it's not reflecting the views of the majority of users. Lars Bengtsson 14:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


In the last few days, there have been a couple of WP:AFD discussions relating to newsgroups: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alt.sysadmin.recovery. In both discussions, the issue of whether we have notability standards for newsgroups has come up. I would like to suggest that newsgroups be specifically included under WP:WEB. This could be done just by changing the following sentence:

Web content includes, but is not limited to, webcomics, podcasts, blogs, Internet forums, online magazines and other media, web portals and web hosts.

to read:

Web content includes, but is not limited to, blogs, Internet forums, newsgroups, online magazines and other media, podcasts, webcomics, web hosts, and web portals.

(The alphabetization of the list is incidental; I'm just doing that for clarity, but it's not essential to this proposal.)

Are there any objections to this? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

There's been a recent spat of AFD nominations of newsgroups, and that's fine... but I'm concerned at how few would meet any legitimate application of "reliable source" standards. 3-5, it seems like, alt.religion.scientology,, and maybe a few others. The moderated Babylon 5 group's article is probably going to be deleted. It just occurs to me that we're deleting notable groups and keeping very random ones that got into legal/constitutional arguments at some point or otherwise captured the interest of scholars and the media outside Usenet, but may or may not have been tremendously important to Usenet history. I dunno, maybe we should find some way to use FAQs and even usenet posts to write articles... then we could have sourced and accurate articles on notable groups. But I'm not really sure if that's a good idea. It just seems weird to delete so many groups that, to anyone who's used Usenet, are obviously important. But that might just be a consequence of reliable source-based writing. --Rividian (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
There's no such thing asa RS in the absolute. Sources are more or less reliable depending on the purpose and the nature of the material. T show something is worth a Wikipedia article, it should be enough to show by any usable evidence that it is or was important, and that we have adequate reasonably accurate facts to say enough for an article. In most cases, web sources, like fiction plots, are self-documenting. The degree of acceptability of a mailing list obviously depends upon the moderator and the posters, just as on the editor and authors of anything else. some are trustworthy, some aren't. We are not given rules for N and RS from some divine authority--we can have whatever guidelines we think are useful for making an encyclopedia. I would accept any web group with influential members as worth an article, or any that can be shown to be of wide readership or authorship. DGG (talk) 22:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Traffic, citation[edit]

Media outlets are notoriously non-covered in other media, so alternative criteria for notability are (rightly) frequently used. The guideline here makes no mention of traffic, frequency of citation, or other indicia of popularity. Does that make sense? Bongomatic 03:50, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't. I've been watching Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Futaba Channel with increasing dismay, as it appears that a very, very popular and influential site is about to get nuked, even though it's got Alexa rank of ~4100 and well north of a million Google hits (as 双葉, not including ふたば, 2chan, etc), just because it's under the radar of mainstream Western media. Jpatokal (talk) 12:48, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Google hits is specifically ruled out as an indicator of notability, and that seems right to me. But popularity for actual visits strikes me differently. Bongomatic 13:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Please help me understand WP:Web[edit]

To be totally honest, I find this this policy rather vague and its application rather arbitrary. On the one hand, it's used to remove pages on sites like TV Tropes Wiki, which have been referred to all over the internet, on the basis that "passing references establish only existence, not notability." On the other, I can see sites listed on here like AIOWiki, INDUCKS,, and others, for which I have not even seen these passing references, and these do not even get nominated for deletion. I do not say this as an attempt to troll, but out of genuine curiosity: What do these sites have that makes them particularly notable? --HBK|Talk 02:08, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


I believe that popularity should be a contributing factor in determining the notability of web content. Dramatic Chipmunk, for instance, has had tens of millions of views (the most viewed YouTube version had 12.5 million views; the original version on College Humor does not display a view count), more than many TV shows. (For comparison, the American Idol finale had around 30 million viewers [2].) I am not suggesting that popularity alone should make web content notable but it should be a factor.--Marcus Brute (talk) 20:54, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

How would one neutrally measure popularity? The number of views is hard to measure as an indicator of popularity, since it would be trivial to write a simple script to keep reloading the page, to trigger an increased page-view count. Yngvarr (t) (c) 20:56, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
There are plenty of online videos with tens of millions of views, but Wikipedia traditionally looks for coverage in secondary sources. The Dramatic Chipmunk video is a good example, because despite its popularity in terms of the view count, it has not received much mainstream media coverage. Maybe this is a flaw in WP:WEB, but without some coverage in the mainstream media it is hard to establish notability. (By the way, the pedants always point out that the creature in this video is actually a prairie dog.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 21:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Traditionally is not much of a justification for limiting it to this. Notability in any normal sense does include the concept of popularity, at least when it can be demonstrated. That page-views can be manipulated in no reason not to use it when it is genuine. DGG (talk) 20:45, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
The view enshrined in the notability guideline seems to derive from logic like this: if something is sufficiently popular as to be notable for its popularity, it will (eventually) be covered in reliable secondary sources, and at such point the topic is suitable for inclusion. This is distinct from issues of verifiability (though it has similar effect in this sort of case to the original research policy / general prescription against primary sourcing). It seems like a sound approach. Bongomatic 21:13, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm aware of the rationale. It only sounds like a good idea. Words do not have their every-day meaning here. Notability is currently explicitly stated to not be the same as popularity. Coverage is defined to mean substantial coverage, and the likelihood of substantial coverage by the specific types of sources, their precise nature, and their findability by Wikipedians varies from subject to subject, from country to country from period to period--and depends on the growth of the web. It sounded like a good idea, until it became clear that there were too many situations where we did not want to justify the writing of articles on that basis, and therefore needed all the complexities of NOT and BLP to rule out topics, and all the complexities of wrangling about what counts as substantial coverage and what counts as a RS for the purpose to make the adjustments. Remember that a RS for WP:V is not a yes/no thing--sources are reliable to different degrees and there is no source utterly reliable for all purposes, and no source that is so unreliable it have no purpose at all in writing an article, but a RS for Notability must be artificially fitting into a yes/no. .
When I was new here I accepted that naïve rule, and learned to defend or oppose articles by making fine distinctions about the nature of sources and quibbling about the precise meaning of the provisions in NOT. I could often get the result i thought reasonable, but by now I've realized that it makes more sense to decide directly what we actually want to include. I still sometimes argue the old way, since many people still accept it, but usually I try to talk about whether the subject is suitable for an encyclopedia like ours'. DGG (talk) 13:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the problem is that the web moves fast, people don't have time to take note of content after the fact. For example, Dramatic Chipmunk was popular, but writing about it after the first week after the initial boom of popularity would be out of touch because everyone would already be onto the next big thing. Old content is boring, but, you cannot deny its previous impact. Therefore I agree that popularity should be a contributing factor in determining the notability of web content.Ljcrabs (talk) 00:57, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Notability is not the same as popularity because Lindstrom's theorem is not popular, but notable. But, something popular is almost inherently notable, at least temporarily. It's bit trickier to decide if something popular for a while is notable in the long run. That's where secondary sources, hopefully with some historical perspective, help. Pcap ping 19:48, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/RecentChangesCamp[edit]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/RecentChangesCamp

This AfD discussion could use some fresh eyes. Comments are appreciated. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 23:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


Criterion two points to a note that says that Category:Awards is a partial list of notable awards. Is the actually the case? Any user could add articles to a category, shouldn't we be referring to a list article instead of a category so we can at least have some fact checking? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:25, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

We could link to List of prizes, medals, and awards instead, but I suspect the category is currently in a better state (notice the quite well motivated "poorly defined, unverified or indiscriminate" flag at the top. Certainly it is the intention of the category to be a listing of notable awards, in the same way it is the intention of wikipedia to be a encyclopaedia of notable information. Whether there are non-notable awards in this category or not is something for the deletion process, having it on what might well be an unwatched list doesn't help much. Usrnme h8er (talk · contribs) 10:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't think just because no one has bothered to keep and maintain award lists that the category is by default legitimate. It seems like each project could maintain a list of awards related to their subject, then it would be easier to keep track of. All a category indicates is that it is an award in that category. Just because it has an article on it doesn't necessarily mean its notable (WP:INN). --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 06:24, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Yea, as most of those Awards are all shiny news, we don't know how many will disappear within the next few years. Having a list of awards is useful only if the noteworthiness of those awards have been properly discussed and a consensus achieved to add them. --KrebMarkt 08:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

The question comes from a case where the sole claim of notability for a podcast was that it won an award of limited notoriety and questionable independence and was also nominated the following year for the same award. One of the podcasters claimed that because the award had an article in Category:Awards, and by extension Category:Web awards, it was a legitimate award for #2. While an award may be notable, even if it is rather obscure, his claim conflicts with the text of #2 which states that the award must be well-known and independent. --Farix (Talk) 23:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with TheFarix that the category should not be used this way. There can be other reasons for an award having an article than that it shows notability of the people getting it. (An example of this would be many student awards.) DGG (talk) 03:50, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I am uneasy about awards being used to assess the notability of blogs. LitBlog awards are often just popularity contests, and are open to vote rigging. Blogs (like mine) that specialise in a niche may be significant enough for a US university to link to as a source, but are unlikely to win a popularity contest. ANZLitLovers (talk) 13:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)ANZLitLovers

Other syndicted mediums[edit]

Shouldn't mediums such as television and print publications be added in section 3 of the criteria - mediums which are conceivably "both respected and independent of the creators." BigBrightStars (talk) 03:38, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

RfC Awards List[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion appears to have a consensus to remove the Category as a list of notable awards. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 03:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Criteria #2 allows a subject to demonstrate notability by "The website or content has won a well-known and independent award from either a publication or organization." However the note that follows it says "See Category:Awards for a partial list of notable awards. Being nominated for an award in multiple years is also considered an indicator of notability." This implies that any award that gets added to the category can be presumed to be notable. Shouldn't this link to a list article or something more static rather than a category that anyone can add articles to? !! time=19:25, 9 March 2009 (UTC) I hope this time we will have way more input. --KrebMarkt 08:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

The instructions on this template were really bad. I think a bot was supposed to fix this, but Wikipedia crashed this afternoon, so I'm not sure if everything is working properly. The automated tool was also broken, however I think this got out to the correct lists. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 08:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Someone fixed the template, thanks! --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 03:04, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This guideline should not link to Category:Awards. The category is full of awards like the No-Prize and Cal Grant, awards where the vast majority of winners will not be notable. --Dragonfiend (talk) 14:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
How did you miss that?!?WhatisFeelings? (talk) 21:43, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
What do you mean? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely need to remove the line saying""See Category:Awards for a partial list of notable awards" DreamGuy (talk) 03:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm saying we should modify it as detailed above, not remove it entirely. I don't think that category provides a list of notable awards. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib)
There's an essay somewhere that says that the existence of a Wikipedia article on something should not be taken as proof of its notability; I agree. Skomorokh 03:29, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Agreed with the above. "See Category:Awards for a partial list of notable awards" means that any award in the list is notable enough so that notability will be inherited from winning it, which isn't true. I think the statement in question should be removed and this criteria should be applied on a more individual basis. Themfromspace (talk) 03:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I think that some brave soul should make a list of Awards that confer notability to their recipients and keep it protected. If there's a consensus on the talk page, it can easily be added to. Phil_burnstein (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't think the static list approach is generally welcomed; a dynamic case-by-case system based on principled guidelines is likely to be more successful, because it neither requires maintaining becomes outdated, or is easily dominated by a clique of administrators. Skomorokh 10:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Given that there is no support for the link to Category:Awards during the past 5 days, I've removed the sentence from the note. I also altered the second sentence to allow editors to use their discretion about whether multiple nominations makes a website/podcast/blog/etc notable based on the notoriety of the award itself. I was debating whether to add well-known and independent to that as well, however, it may not be necessary unless. --Farix (Talk) 12:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That looks good, I approve. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Centre for Research on Globalisation[edit]

Zep Kalb (talk · contribs) just created Centre for Research on Globalisation and put up some links to it in some articles. I tried to find if this was notable a notable website, but didn't find any wp:RS sources specifically about the organization. It's mentioned a lot because of people who are associated with it, but no third parties that I see discuss it other than to say that it's a "think tank" or something similar. Does this pass wp:NOTE? Here are some searches: Find sources: Gnews · Gnewspapers · Gbooks · Gscholar · NYT · Wikipedia Reference Search

- NJGW (talk) 16:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Trailer Gator - trailer coupler lock[edit]

trailer gator is a trailer coupler lock —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

H O L M E S in Scotland.[edit]

I refer to the above subject which is the subect of much interesting debate on present web sites. I would however point out that this system was originated in Scoland and being one of the first instructors of the system it upsets me that credit is being given to Scotlanfd Yard and various other establishments. Please be assured that Scotland is not behind the rest of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Exclude web hosts from this guideline?[edit]

I'd like to propose that web hosts be removed from the list of things explicitly covered by this guideline. After all, the next sentence says "Any content which is distributed solely on the Internet is considered, for the purposes of this guideline, as web content" -- and a web host is a company, not content. None of the three specific criteria apply to companies, except for "multiple independent sources", which is covered nicely by WP:CORP and the GNG. Any objection to this change? Thanks.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:39, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

You have to understand, a web host does its business Only! on the internet, it's not like you can go get your web hosting either on a cd from dreamhost out of your next 7/11 Or get it from online. This therefor applies as intended and changing it is by no means appropriate.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 19:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Did you actually read my rationale above? Which of the specific criteria mentioned in this guide apply to a web hosting company, besides the requirement of multiple independent sources, which is in the general notability guide anyway?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:59, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello, Yes I read your rationale above and after reading your reply now I reread everything and came to the exact same conclusion #1 and #2 apply perfectly in my opinion, you are free to disagree with that and I might be wrong. I'd be interested to see what others have to say about this. I don't really know how appropriate this is though changing the guideline to squeeze a single article through.--194x144x90x118 (talk) 20:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Informative note: "Web host" was added to this page in this edit by Hiding, in what appears to be a long, drawn-out battle about web-based comics. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:25, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
It's been there for more than THREE YEARS and we're supposed to change it now just because you want to keep some worthless article alive?--194x144x90x118 (talk) 20:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
That is an extremely unfair insinuation. A proper characterization would be that SarekOfVulcan discovered a potential flaw in this guideline while participating in a related AfD discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
(ecX2)Sorry I snapped above -- too much caffeine, probably. In any case, I'm not arguing about #1, since it's in every single notability guideline out there, and I provided three independent non-trivial articles covering Dreamhost, so "squeezing a single article" doesn't apply. #2 could also apply to a web host -- but really, that's just a special case of #1, since a well-known award is going to be covered in multiple independent sources. #2 also specifies "the website or content": if Dreamhost were to win an award, it almost certainly wouldn't be for its website or other content it provides, but rather for the services it provides (or doesn't, as some would have it). And remember, it's any of those criteria, not all of them -- so this actually provides more ways for Dreamhost to prove notability than WP:CORP, which is what I'm suggesting should cover it. Can we skip the personal attacks, please, and focus on the question at hand?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:38, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
As there were no serious objections raised above, I've removed webhosts from the guideline, as they are companies covered under WP:CORP.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

proposal: hide non-notable website pages rather than delete them?[edit]

I understand the concerns of the community regarding self-promotion & advertisement in the wikipedia. You would like to restrict such non-notable pages from internet search engine results, and to limit their display in wiki search results unless a very specific search is performed.

But, at the same time, it is impossible to predict which sites will achieve notability and when. Of the millions of web sites currently up, some select few may achieve this level and by that time the editors will have to go back to dig up information that might have been deleted previously. For those sites that do achieve notability, the history of their growth might be documented better in an article if that article existed somewhere on wikipedia throughout the non-notable period of the site's growth.

Would it not make sense to have a page to encompass all non-notable websites with a subpage for each non-notable website? The sub-pages could be shrouded from search results / etc unless that phrase is searched for very specifically. When/if a site achieves notability, its page can then be moved into a full-blown article status to be included in standard search results.

Such a strategy might also reduce the time spent fighting with self-promoting editors over getting their articles on wikipedia.

Just my thoughts, would be curious to know what the rest of the folks here think.

--Jacki Buros (talk) 15:41, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Deleting here is technically already just a form of hiding, as the page still exists and admins can see them. If a page then becomes notable later they would have the power to undelete the article, if it's appropriate. DreamGuy (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Criterion 3 on Independence[edit]

I think a more clearly defined explanation of independence for criteria 3 is needed. I feel that an article that should have met this notability criteria was deleted. The example was a large media website (CNET)which hosts various talk-show style podcasts. The argument was that this made them not independent even though the site itself did not dictate the content of the programs, the creators themselves do. Would collecting a paycheck or using a studio compromise independence under this criteria? Those arguing to delete the article suggested that the burden was on me to PROVE the independence but I'm not sure there is a whole lot of published investiagative journalism about the making of podcasts. If that stance prevails, I see very little in the way where something could not be both independent and NOT trival.Ngaskill (talk) 01:59, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

It would be helpful to have a bit more background, perhaps a link to the Afd? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Redirects from websites to subjects[edit]

This redirects for discussion process here: Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/ resulted in the deletions of several web URLs that redirected to subject articles. Wikipedia:Notability (web) says "Websites or content which fail these guidelines but are linked to a topic or subject which does merit inclusion may be redirected to that topic or subject rather than be listed for deletion." The participants of the redirects for discussion referred to were not aware of the clause in Notability (web). The closing administrator suggested that I start a discussion about this.

  • So when is it acceptable to redirect a URL to an article about its subject? When is it not acceptable? WhisperToMe (talk) 04:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I would say it is acceptable if the subject is notable for having a website, as in the case of, so as to not confuse or mislead readers. Not acceptable if the subject's website is distinctly different or known for something which the article on the subject does not cover, such as kids looking for the online Hanna Montana game, or the sneak peek of an upcoming movie. But usually anyone looking for a specific subject wouldn't think to type the ".com" when searching unless they were looking for a specific web site. -- œ 15:57, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I agree with the above comment - "are linked to a topic or subject" may apply to an association such as, which is the only/most-common way to do business with the company Orbitz (it does, indeed, redirect there -- similar for, See WP:RCAT for appropriate uses for redirects. I'll also note that the quoted section in WhisperToMe's original note is buried deep in a footnote, and says may be, not shall be or should be. I wouldn't interpret it as a strict requirement. -Sme3 (talk) 20:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
In regards to,, etc.: they would pass the Notability (web) guidelines as they are notable as websites. What Wikipedia:Notability (web) is referring to is a non-notable website of a notable subject. An analogy would be for Delta Air Lines, or for Starbucks WhisperToMe (talk) 00:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
What's the objective of this discussion? Are we looking to clarify/modify WP:Notability (web) and/or WP:RCAT, or are we trying to argue over whether or not these these URL-titled redirects should have been deleted in the first place? Clearly, there is ambiguity in these policies (use of may in Notability (web), its implicit omission in RCAT). -Sme3 (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I would like to clarify both Notability (web) and RCAT, and I would like to argue whether the redirects should have been deleted in the first place (possibly after the clarification). WhisperToMe (talk) 02:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Regarding your examples (which surprisingly is actually linked to) and, I would say these are not necessary because there's nothing really notable about the websites themselves that would lead a reader when searching to type out the full company name plus ".com", but I also wouldn't say that they're 'inappropriate' because what's the hurt? redirects are cheap, and these types of redirects may be used by external sites as well. So unless it's an obviously promotional redirect I would probably !vote 'keep' in any afd's that come up. -- œ 02:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand that they are harmless, but does that mean, then, that a whole bunch of URL redirects should be created (,,, etc). Also, look at the original RfD nomination linked above. One of them was Once we open the door to all kinds of URLs and sub-URLs, it never ends. I think the rules need to be clear on this, not just take a "no harm, no foul" attitude. -Sme3 (talk) 12:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
No, definately not. Everything must be in moderation. common sense must be applied and each should be dealt with case by case. The Notability (web) guideline shouldn't ban them outright though, just discourage it. -- œ 19:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I personally think that going beyond the domain name (like is not plausible, but it is plausible to redirect a domain name to its subject. WhisperToMe (talk) 07:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
It's possibly appropriate in some cases. But it's not really necessary as a routine matter, for it will be given in the External sources section, and nobody will reasonably have much trouble finding them. DGG ( talk ) 04:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

"No harm no foul" is the rule for redirects because it costs more to delete them than to keep them (and other reasons). Even more still to discuss them. Hence the overriding rule is: Therefore consider the deletion only of either really harmful redirects or of very recent ones. That clearly doesn't mean that the analogous cases for those that exist need creating, unless there is a need for them - to do so would be WP:POINT. Rich Farmbrough, 21:26, 28 September 2009 (UTC).


Quotations from the personnel of the web content as story sources do not count as substantial coverage unless the web content itself is also a major subject of the story.

Can we get this added? It's from the company guidelines.--Otterathome (talk) 10:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you give an example of a diff that you think this change would protect against? Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
We don't need "proof" of anything to make a common-sense edit. This doesn't seem to qualify, since WP:N already covers this, regardless of medium. This isn't a copy-paste of WP:N with the word "web" inserted everywhere. :-)  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Web pages vs Web content[edit]

This guideline seems to be confused as to its focus... is it a notability guideline outlining what makes a specific web page notable enough to have an article about it? Or is it a notability guideline outlining what sort of web based information is notable enough to mention on Wikipedia?

Both are valid topics for a guideline... but they are seperate issues. May I suggest that the guideline be re-structured with discussion of each of these issues separated into a seperate sub-section? Blueboar (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be that this guideline is intended to be about the notability of web pages. The notability of the information is the subject of other guidelines. I do agree though that the distinction being made between a web site and it's content is confusing and should be reworded. It probably seemed clear enough to the people who participated in the discussion at the time, can someone who was involved then explain it? Otherwise I'll try to dig up from the archives to see what the intent was.--RDBury (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
The discussion of the change is at Wikipedia talk:Notability (web)/Archive 5#Move this sideways and onwards. (This was back when the guideline was still just a proposal.) I still don't understand what the distinction is supposed to be though. The wording has remained more or less the same for over 3 years now so maybe it's clear enough to most people, but the terms are nevertheless undefined and that leaves room for different interpretations by different people.--RDBury (talk) 14:16, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolute vs presumed[edit]

Why is this notability guideline absolute ("is deemed notable") when even the general notability guide notable is only presumed? I propose a change away from absolute. duffbeerforme (talk) 11:02, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea. Here is the phrasing from other subject-specific guidelines. WP:BAND: "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria". WP:NBOOK: "A book is generally notable if it verifiably meets through reliable sources, one or more of the following criteria". WP:NOTFILM: "The following are attributes that generally indicate, when supported with reliable sources, that the required sources are likely to exist". I'd suggest for this guideline we change "is deemed notable based on meeting any one of the following criteria" to "may be notable if it meets at least one of the following criteria." And comparing this to the other guidelines, I think it would be a good idea to add the "sources are likely to exist" concept to what are criteria 2 and 3 here. Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 15:30, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Shorty Awards and Foodimentary[edit]

Since this is far from my area of expertise I'm wondering if anyone can help with the notability of these two entries Shorty Awards and Foodimentary. The latter of these strikes me as non-notable. There is no reliable independent coverage of the subject. However, Foodimentary has apparently won a Shorty Award, which would satisfy #2 here if the Shorty Awards are "a well-known and independent award from either a publication or organization." Any thoughts?Griswaldo (talk) 16:53, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to highlight that, as well as winning Shorty Awards, Foodimentary has had 3 articles written where it is the sole subject. One by Epicurious, one by SlashFood, and one by FineCooking. There's been some debate as to the reliability of these as sources though (see the talk page).Eikou (talk) 17:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Eikou please provide the links here. They are not "articles" in my mind. Epicurious is a website known mostly for its user generated content, and I see no indication that conducting and publishing an interview on that website meets WP:RS criteria. I see no indication that SlashFood is more than a food blog. Is it an RS? FInally, the Fine Cooking reference is to an online blurb written by an intern and not an article published in the magazine itself.Griswaldo (talk) 17:38, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Epicurious Article, SlashFood article, Fine Cooking Article. By the RS guidelines, I would say Epicurious is reliable. The SlashFood article, upon review, I could agree about. The Fine Cooking article, as mentioned on the discussion page for Foodimentary, is indeed written by an intern. Also as mentioned, I've found nothing in the RS guidelines that should make the fact that it was written by an intern invalidate the article. When an intern submits an article to the company they work for, the company still has to review and approve it. It would seem to me that regardless of the author, the article carries the reliability of the magazine that published it.Eikou (talk) 17:48, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

If winning an award does not result in significant coverage in reliable sources, you can be pretty sure that the award is not "a well-known and independent award". I don't see anything in the Foodimentary article that suggests it has received significant coverage in reliable sources, though maybe that information is buried in all the ridiculous trivia about "Had a tweet quoted in the LA Times blog" and "Mentioned in a blog on". Thanks, Starblueheather (talk) 15:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

  • It seems to me that the statement, "If winning an award does not result in significant coverage in reliable sources, you can be pretty sure that the award is not "a well-known and independent award"." comes from opinion and not policy. In fact, it's almost contradictory to policy, or at the least suggests policy is redundant. Besides that, if you Google "foodimentary wins a shorty award", you get 3070 results to peruse through of coverage. Not all of them are very reliable, but it does constitute some argument for how "well-known" the shorty awards are, and it's certainly "independent". Maybe what's in the Wikipedia article isn't the best reflection of reliable coverage, but that's something we can change. Choosing a random source from the Google search that seems reliable to me, I found this. I wouldn't say the article itself is the ultimate reference as to what reliable sources are available for the article. Much love, Eikou (talk) 15:19, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the double post. I just found this article that seems to be from a major newspaper called "Biotech Week". I thought it may be better than the Knight Foundation article. They're both from the Google search. Much love, Eikou (talk) 15:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


As part of my recent request for adminship, I was asked to review the page at a copyediting perspective, which I did so in this edit. Below is a list of changes made within the one edit.

  • I made the use of serial commas consistent throughout the text.
  • I removed various instances of repeated spaces within the code. This has no effect on the article's appearance, but explains the apparent lack of changes in some highlighted regions in the diff.
  • I replaced all instances of "our" with "the" or "Wikipedia's" to remove feeling of exclusivity.
  • I clarified the first sentence of the article. "Any form of web-specific content" was replaced with "a form of web-specific content" for precision of meaning and to illustrate (yet again) that the guideline does not apply in every situation.
  • I rephrased the line defining "web concept" in the first paragraph ("any content [...] of this guideline, as web content") to remove awkwardness.
  • In the second lead paragraph, the phrase "Wikipedia articles are not advertisements is an official policy" was awkward-sounding, especially in printed versions of this page where there are no wikilinks. Because the policy is not named by its "true name" ("Wikipedia is not a soapbox"), I preceded the phrase with "the idea that"; thus, it reads, "the idea that Wikipedia articles are not advertisements is an official policy...".
  • In the final lead paragraph (in the part describing {{notability}}), I changed "to make other editors aware of the problem" to "to alert other editors to the problem" for concision (the third "C" of copyediting: "clear, correct, concise, complete, and consistent").
  • I made the sentence in final lead paragraph about AfD slightly more concise and straightforward.
  • I made the final line of the final lead paragraph (about WP:PROD and WP:SPEEDY) more accurate (explained PROD further to include the need for lack of controversy), clear (removed possible ambiguity), and detailed (added link to WP:A7 so editors can find further reference).
  • Last line, first paragraph "No inherent notability": I made the first letter of "see" lowercase for grammatical/stylistic reasons.
  • I removed "just as individuals can be notable" from the second paragraph in "No inherent notability", since it seems to be used as a sort of a proof for the idea that "smaller websites can be notable". It's not wholly related or analogous.
  • I reworded the last paragraph (or line) in "No inherited notability" more concise.
  • I improved the flow of the list of "reliable published works" by using a more parallel structure.
  • I corrected word meaning in the second bullet in the "except the following" numbered list in criterion #1 by changing the word "or" to "and"—all exceptions apply simultaneously, not just one at a time.
  • I fixed footnote #2 by correcting the meaning of the sentence. The article about the content should be redirected, not the web content!
  • I "fixed" the spelling of "encyclopedia" in footnote #5 (i.e., "encyclopaedia"). Yes, I know, "encyclopaedia" is a legitimate spelling alternative for the word, but honestly? Like using "lede paragraph" instead of "lead paragraph", it really has no beneficial effect anyway.
  • I clarified, slightly, the meaning of various sentences in footnote #5.
  • Footnote #6 may in fact be redundant.

If anyone has any objections or comments, feel free to discuss them below. Guoguo12 (Talk)  11:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I semi-object to removal of "our", and think we should go in the other direction (occasionally, but at least once per page) in policy and guideline pages (but not wikiproject advice pages, or in essays), because it has exactly the opposite effect on the former two types of page: It's describing our best practices as a community (in the latter two cases, it would be interpreted as WP:OWN nonsense by a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS-pushing WP:FACTION, of course). But whether to use "our" more in WP:POLICY pages is probably a matter for a WP:VPPOL RfC.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

With blog notability, aim for inclusivity[edit]

I think Wikipedia needs to look at the issue of blog notability differently. We are in uncharted territory, and the rules need to ensure inclusiveness and diversity if WP is to be truly comprehensive in scope.

This isn't about me and my blog, but I'm using myself as an example to illustrate the difficulty of establishing notability under existing rules.

With no professional background in books or publishing, I started my blog about Australian literature three years ago. However, In the last twelve months, my blog has been linked to an American university as a resource, my reviews are featured on senior secondary school reading lists, I've been featured as a blogger of note in two other lit blogs (one US, one UK), and on the strength of my knowledge about OzLit, I've been an invited guest at two major literary award ceremonies, suggested as a judge for a major award, invited to speak at a writers' festival, and asked to set up a 'shadow' panel for the Miles Franklin Award (like the shadow Giller Prize panel). (Almost) every Australian publisher of books knows who I am. I have a Google page ranking of 5.

But how would anybody assessing the notability of my blog know any of this (except for the page ranking)? The people who have approached me have done it privately. I don't brag about it on my blog, and I have never been mentioned in the national media. (After all, traditional media journalists see bloggers as rivals, and many are scornful about amateurs).

Literary fiction competes with general fiction for media attention and although it has great cultural significance it gets very little airspace. Australian Literature is an even smaller niche. A small team of Aussie litlovers have worked tirelessly to have our notable authors included in Wikipedia because they weren't there. Anyone using WP to find out more about AusLit would want to find links to external resources such as reference books - and litblogs.

I'm just a middle sized fish in the small Australian Literature pond that is swamped by oceans of US and UK lit. I'm sure that Wikipedia wants to ensure that it is inclusive of blogs that matter in countries outside the Big 2. There are excellent, high quality blogs that offer significant information about the literary scene (and other fields too, I expect) in Africa, Canada, and India. For many young people, online reviews are the sole source of information that they use. Indeed in many cases book reviews on litblogs are taking up the space vacated by traditional media as it becomes uneconomic for print to carry them. Like the blogs that are documenting the Arab spring, they are a phenomena that have great cultural significance. But unlike a blog about middle eastern politics, their notability is not easy for an outsider to establish.

From a personal point of view I don't really care if my blog makes it as notable or not, but I am particularly concerned about the principle of inclusiveness, especially regarding litblogs from Africa which are documenting the highly significant growth of African literature written by Africans. I am worried that these may not meet the notability criteria as they seem to be at the moment.

I don't know what the answer is except to suggest that the rules should be flexible and open-ended rather than creating fences to keep out minorities.

Ok, off my soapbox!

--ANZLitLovers (talk) 15:05, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Imagine that you have to write an article about your blog (not about you). Imagine that the article must be fully sourced, and that every single source must meet all of these requirements:
  1. It must be a third-party or WP:Independent source. (So you can't use any source by you, including the blog.)
  2. It must be a Wikipedia:Published source that is still accessible to the public. (So a speech is useless [unless it was recorded and published elsewhere], but a webpage describing the speech is fine.)
  3. The source must have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
  4. It must be published by a reputable publishing house (rather than by the author).
  5. It must have a professional structure in place for deciding whether to publish something, such as editorial oversight or peer review processes.
How many sources talking about your blog and meeting all of these requirements could you find? How long would the resulting article be? WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia needs more fences. It doesn't have anything to do with minorities, it has to do with demonstrated importance. While the description of the small niche success you have had with your blog must be personally satisfying, it's a far cry from something an encyclopedia should recognize. We're an encyclopedia, first and foremost. If you think you can get listed in any other encyclopedia in the world, start there first and let us know when it happens. Don't just assume that because we're online that our standards should be lower. DreamGuy (talk) 23:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
My post-RfC comment at #RfC: Notability of YouTubers exactly covers this, as well, pretty much word-for-word, other than the quote from the OP in the RFC.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

If a website has a lot of famous/notable people reviewed there, shouldn't it be considered notable?[edit]

Would having a significant number of notable people being interviewed on a website not confirm notability of that website? Any objection towards that being added to this guideline's page under web content? Just because the mainstream news media doesn't cover certain things, doesn't mean it isn't notable. Dream Focus 04:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

No. Why would it? That in itself doesn't mean anything. I don't know what you have in mind here, but, say, a website for a science fiction convention can post a lot of interviews of famous people, or just some random personal blog can track down a bunch of famous people by email and put up some slapdash interviews. We let stuff up that isn't particularly notable just because the guidelines here for inclusion are already overly generous, let's not open the door even more. DreamGuy (talk) 23:31, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Right. Loads and loads and loads of famous people have taken a dump at any particular roadside rest-stop. Notability does not rub off from the notable onto other things.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:23, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Is WP:WEB criterion three really necessary?[edit]

Consensus supports the idea that C3 should be deleted. Ironholds (talk) 11:10, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A recent AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/No Room for Magic (2nd nomination) has got me thinking about criterion three, "The content is distributed via a medium which is both respected and independent of the creators". The webcomic in question doesn't seem notable by any common-sense measure - no hits on Google News or Books, no claim in the article of wider influence - and yet criterion three gives it a claim to notability under our guideline, as argued in the previous AfD discussion from 2006. Is there any actual need for this criterion? It seems to me that anything worthy of an article would already pass criterion one by being covered in multiple, reliable sources independent of the subject. Let me know your thoughts. — Mr. Stradivarius 00:49, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

The line in the policy is to allow articles to be created on works (or authors of works) whose narrow audience is so limited as to not attract published analysis, praise, or criticism (what we Wikipedians call "coverage"). The criterion we use is whether there is not editorial control exercised by the host of the Web content. For an example not related to the case presented, sites that aggregate political or popular culture opinion that add or remove contributors based on web site's subjective criteria meet (3).(National Review Online,Huffington Post, etc.)
When it comes to web comics, I am not a subject matter expert, however, I expect that there's enough experience among Wikipedia editors now to know what web sites are not mere pass-throughs (i.e. WP:SELFPUBLISH) but attempt to host the most popular or highest quality comics and apply the (3) criteria accordingly. patsw (talk) 13:07, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
I looked into this a little deeper. It seems that a workable solution would be to incorporate a short description of No Room for Magic into the article describing its host, Keenspot. Alas, the article is deleted but I will make my suggestion on that article's talk page. patsw (talk) 13:32, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi Patsw, and thanks for the comments. You said that that criterion #3 "is to allow articles to be created on works (or authors of works) whose narrow audience is so limited as to not attract published analysis, praise, or criticism". I agree that this is what the policy intends - my point was that I don't see why topics that have such a narrow audience should have an article in the first place. To put it another way, we often point users to WP:INHERITED, which says that "notability is not inherited". I know that the link is an essay, not a guideline, but why should we make an exception to this principle for web content? Best — Mr. Stradivarius 14:56, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
The essay you mention is confusing and contradictory. To apply what I believe to the case here, if there's a consensus of Wikipedia editors that editorial judgment (or quality control) of Keenspot is good enough for them, then it would be sufficient to use the appearance of a web comic in Keenspot as the threshold for inclusion of that web comic as an article without having to make judgments on each new web comic as it appears. I don't think that consensus is there. patsw (talk) 18:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
About patsw's comment: If the web content has never attracted "published analysis, praise, or criticism (what we Wikipedians call "coverage")", then how the heck are we supposed to write an article about it? Just chuck NPOV out the window and write the whole thing from what the content's creators say about it? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
In theory, Wikipedia editors in a narrow subject, use the editorial filter of organizations, aggregators, syndicates, etc. to determine if a topic merits an article. To pick one example in an area I am familiar with, Carrie Lukas has an article. I conjecture that her connection to the Goldwater Institute and National Review Online have more weight than coverage of Carrie Lukas in published sources. patsw (talk) 13:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
No, my question isn't about how to determine if a topic merits an article. I'm talking about the practical aspect of putting text into the article. If there are actually zero independent sources with any significant coverage, how exactly do you write the article? How do you decide what to say after the first half sentence? I know how to get through This is a web comic", but what comes after those words, given that you have zero sources except the comic's own website or other sources very closely related to the comic?
Pretend it's not a web comic. Pretend it's a comic strip printed in the newspaper, and it happens that the only sources you've been able to find are (1) the comic strip, (2) the comic strip's website, and (3) stuff published by the syndicate. That's zero independent sources. How do you write that article? How do you write a neutral article, rather than an unbalanced regurgitation of what the syndicate's marketing department (and your own original research from reading the comic strips) wants you to say? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
No, this criterion is not necessary. The two examples given, No Room for Magic being published by Keenspot and Carrie Lukas being published by National Review Online, don't support the need for this criterion. Consensus above and at AFD is publishing on Keenspot is not an indicator of notability. For Carrie Lukas, not every National Review contributor is notable, let alone every National Review Online contributor; if the notability of Carrie Lukas were discussed, I'd expect it to revolve around being published by The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and USA Today. Further, I cannot find other notability guidelines as broad or vague as this. Neither WP:AUTHOR, WP:NBOOK nor WP:NOTFILM have a "respected and independent publisher" criterion. The closest I can find is WP:BAND's "Has released two or more albums on a major label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are notable)." That is much more narrow than this WP:WEB criterion (there are only 4 major labels). So, if being published by a major book publisher or a major film studio is not an indicator of notability, I don't see how the lesser standard of publishing their ebooks or online videos on any "respected and independent website" can be an indicator of notability. Similarly, if a band who has just released one album on a major label is not notable, I don't see how they would be notable for releasing mp3s on any "respected and independent website." Rangoondispenser (talk) 18:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Delete it. It's pretty clear from the discussion above that this criterion 3 is incompatible with WP:NPOV or at least it can be easily interpreted that way ("medium which is both respected and independent of the creators" = IP protocol?). There are tons of problematic and obscure websites out there (racist etc.) that describe themselves as something else than what they actually are. Without some independent coverage as to their nature, just copying their self-description to Wikipedia means transforming Wikipedia into a free advertisement venue for fringe stuff. ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 16:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
  • SNGs like this are meant to outline criteria that if a topic meets one of these, there will likely be sufficient coverage (existing or in the future) to allow the article to eventually comply with the GNG. This particular clause gives me no impression that sources would immediately follow by meeting this mark. Thus, it is appropriate to delete. --MASEM (t) 03:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  • All websites are distributed via the media of HTTP, which is respected and independent of 99.99% of websites. Are 99.99% of websites notable? Stuartyeates (talk) 04:30, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
    I can see where you're coming from here, but any confusion about the guideline referring to things as broad as IP protocol and HTTP is mostly because I only quoted the first part of the criterion above. The full version is more specific, and I will include it here:

The content is distributed via a medium which is both respected and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster;[1] except for trivial distribution including content being hosted on sites without editorial oversight (such as YouTube, Facebook, Newgrounds, personal blogs, etc.).

  1. ^ Content that is distributed by independent online sites will almost certainly satisfy the first criterion. However, this criterion ensures that Wikipedia's coverage of such content will be complete regardless. For example, Ricky Gervais had a podcast distributed by The Guardian. Such distributions should be nontrivial.
From this version it's quite clear that the "medium" referred to in the guideline must be some kind of online publisher, so we should bear this in mind when debating it. Apologies if I misled anyone with selective quoting. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 06:12, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Comment withdrawn. I shouldn't have been sarcastic in the first place. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
That could be made clearer by changing "trivial" to "nonselective". However, it's still unclear why this criterion is needed from the example given. The podcast of Ricky Gervais can be covered in his biography. The only case where a separate article is needed is when substantial independent commentary appears about the podcast itself. Even clarified, the criterion seems to encourage micro-stubs on works of otherwise notable authors. I admit I'm somewhat biased against such disjointed treatment of someone's works, and I've redirected some stubs like that the past. Alternatively, if the "medium" is notable but the author & work isn't passing GNG, the work could be mentioned in the article on the medium. Assuming Gervais didn't have an article, his podcast could conceivably be mentioned in the article on the newspaper (site). ASCIIn2Bme (talk) 19:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Delete it as totally useless. It's solely there to come up with lame excuses to include things that do not belong here by any reasonable criteria, either by Wikipedia standards or the real world. DreamGuy (talk) 18:21, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.[edit]

Does it has notability?--Kaiyr (talk) 21:44, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Kaiyr: for notability of specific items I'd suggest asking at Wikipedia:Notability/Noticeboard. Damn, it was archived? Hmmm. I guess you are in the right place then... have you compared this to the guideline? How does it meet the criteria? Tells us what point is unclear and we can help. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Notability of fonts[edit]

Would it be covered by this guideline? I wonder if Wikipedia:Notability (fonts) should redirect here, and should we have a section or a sentence about them? Or would Wikipedia:Notability (software) be a better place for this? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:21, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

The latter. Fonts are not websites, but are software.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:14, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC: Notability of YouTubers[edit]

This interesting RfC concerns the question of whether Wikipedia's notability guidelines are sufficiently inclusive towards people who are extremely popular on YouTube. The nominator advances a number of ingenious and persuasive arguments. Wikipedia's core advantages over other information sources include its comprehensive range of content and the fact that articles can be very up-to-date, being editable in real time. The general public might perhaps expect YouTube personalities to be covered here, but our current notability guidelines make this impossible.

However, even though these arguments are well-made and supported by clear evidence, other editors are not persuaded. They correctly point out that to relax the guidelines would be to create biographies of living people without third party sources. This is problematic for several reasons and conflicts with a number of core policies.

For these reasons, despite the well-reasoned arguments on both sides, I can say that the rough consensus is not to change Wikipedia's notability guidelines insofar as they relate to YouTube personalities.

I hope this helps.—S Marshall T/C 23:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Are our notability guidelines really fair for YouTubers who naturally get little to no coverage, regardless of whether they have a large fan base? CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 16:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Let me explain. YouTube has become one of the most popular sites on the internet. Many of their users make a career off of it. YouTubers like CaptainSparklez, TmarTn, Sky Does Minecraft, etc. These are all very popular YouTube personalities (YouTubers), but only one of the mentioned personalities has an article due to the current state of our guidelines. Currently guidelines call for significant third party media coverage to establish notability. And I think this works in most cases. However YouTubers, regardless of following and how large the fan base is, receive little to no coverage and current guidelines are not so fair.
Let's take the aforementioned Sky Does Minecraft (henceforth referred to as "SDM") as an example. SDM has over 10 million subscribers (over 3 million more than CaptainSparklez, who does have an article), over 500 million likes on Facebook (verified page, by the way), and over 720 thousand followers on Twitter. Even further, his latest video, which is his Ice Bucket Challenge video, has over 550 thousand hits, nearly 27 thousand likes and has nearly 5,000 comments. All in 17 hours. To me, all these stats would say he's quite notable per his large fanbase. And per WP:ENTERTAINER, criterion 2, he would usually get an article. But since he's a YouTuber and, again, since YouTubers don't usually get media coverage, he doesn't. And, of course, that rings true for SDM as seen here.
This is just one example, but there are dozens of others in the same boat. The point of all this is, I don't believe media coverage is a good barometric measure of a YouTuber's notability. Something needs to change to adapt Wikipedia to acknowledge the notability of these internet celebrities, who, despite their huge followings, don't get the media coverage to warrant an article under the current guidelines. What is the solution? I'm not sure at the moment. All I know is something needs to change because our current system, as stated, is not a fair judgement of notability for YouTubers. CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 16:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
"Notability" is a defined term of art on Wikipedia; it's not the same as the dictionary definition. It's not the same thing as "popularity" or "interestingness". Hits, likes, comments, and a large fanbase aren't notability; they aren't what makes a subject appropriate for inclusion in Wikipedia. Wikipedia publishes what reliable sources have already published. That's the kind of encyclopedia we're making here. So we need to wait for those YouTubers to garner the right sort of coverage. Ntsimp (talk) 18:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
It is much more difficult for any Youtuber to gain the coverage that performers of other arts can. Reliable sources that go into detail about the channel/person are very unlikely, probably simply for the fact that YouTube, unlike IRL things, are meant to be viewed over the internet, in an environment where you could start reading a review, or just launch yourself right into a video. Not really appealing for many reliable sources. Wikipedia, yes, publishes what other reliable sources have published, and, yes, "Nobility" is very much a defined term for our uses, but this RfC could make a slight effect on editors' understanding of 'Notability'.
Notability does, after all, mean something, be it a person, object, or event, that is worthy of notice, and I personally doubt that YouTubers are going to ever make the cut with current guidelines, even if they are noteworthy enough compared to other performers.  —Mysterytrey 00:35, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
"Reliable sources that go into detail about the channel/person are very unlikely" -- let me stop you right there. If there are no reliable sources, how can you possibly satisfy verifiability? --NYKevin 17:05, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
To respond to this, what would your article say? "SDM is a youtuber who in september 2014 had over 10 million subscribers. " And without WP:RS what would the next sentence be? If there isn't notable coverage in reliable sources we don't have the information to put in an article. SPACKlick (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
No. The purpose of specific notability guidelines (entertainer, academic, etc.) is to give editors good heuristics for when a subject will meet the general notability guideline. That is to say if an academic is a leading researcher in a field they are likely to have multiple, independent reliable sources covering them even if a quick google search doesn't unearth any. When a specific notability guideline fails as a heuristic, we should stop using it or update it, because the goal is to have articles which have sufficient sourcing such that they can be neutral, verifiable and relatively comprehensive without relying on original research. We should never develop a notability guideline with the express purpose of skirting that core requirement. As Ntsimp notes above, the term "notable" on wikipedia is a term of art. I'll go further, it's a very unfortunate misnomer. Back in 2005 we picked the term because it seemed to fit without much thought that a normal human would read it as "important or significant" (which many youtubers certainly are), not as "covered by multiple, independent reliable sources". I've argued for years that we should rename the notability guidelines to "inclusion guidelines" or something that isn't such a loaded term. Regardless, we shouldn't build out a specific guideline that will lead us astray in determining which articles to keep on wikipedia. Protonk (talk) 00:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
Notable YouTube users have articles: Bethany Mota, Phil Mason, Pat Condell, etc. It's perfectly fair, and quite a few YouTube personalities have no trouble satisfying the GNG. However, arbitrary measure of popularity, such as big numbers, do not indicate notability. Without reliable sources, we really don't have anything say, which is why we have these policies in the first place. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:11, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Per both Protonk and NinjaRobotPirate above, notability only means "Do we have enough reliable, independent source text to use to help us write an article." If the source text doesn't exist it doesn't exist and no amount of pageviews on a YouTube video will make the source text exist, unless it gets written by reliable sources. Unless and until we have something to read from that we can then use to help us write Wikipedia articles, there is no point in writing the article in the first place, regardless of why you might happen to know about the subject. All that matters here (rather than the words you use to describe this condition, like "notability") is the existence of source material. No source material = no article. End of discussion. And we do have YouTube personalities who have Wikipedia articles. Those for whom we have enough source material to read through first before we wrote the articles. --Jayron32 23:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • The original poster has a point. If someone is extremely popular, that makes them notable, period. If our guidelines don't allow for that, there's something wrong with our guidelines.
Let's do a thought experiment. Suppose a person had several #1 songs on the Billboard main chart, and was the most popular pop act since the Beatles, but -- this is a thought experiment -- there were insufficient sources to meet WP:GNG and WP:BIO. Would we have an article on this person? Of course we would, provided there was sufficient proof that this was true, and sufficient sources to write at least a couple sentences about the person. Right? We would.
OK, so where's the cutoff? The fact is that getting one #1 song on the Billboard American main chart is probably sufficient proof of popularity -- notability if you will -- for us to have an article on that person. But the Billboard chart doesn't mean what it used to. It's like album sales: they mean essentially nothing now. YouTube hits are a better measure of popularity. I'm sorry if the mainstream press is behind the curve on this, but so what?
I'll tell you this: if a person has x million YouTube hits and it can be demonstrated that that puts them at the very highest level of that metric, and assuming that the metric isn't being gamed or is otherwise misleading, then I'd be inclined that that shows notability and I'd be inclined to vote "keep" for an article on that person. And so would others. And I think that's reasonable. So since people are going to do that, and it's reasonable, we should consider adding metrics like that to our notability standards. Because our standards are supposed to conform to reality and how reasonable people are going to think here, and not vice versa. Herostratus (talk) 02:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Your example #1 song on the Billboard American main chart doesn't really work. I would consider Billboard American chart to be an ideal third party RS establishing Notability. The world has deemed to Take Note of any chart-topping musician. The fact that there does not exist a comparable chart for Youtubers would suggest the world currently does not consider a popular Youtuber to be inherently noteworthy. Alsee (talk) 05:53, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • WP:NOTABILITY is quite clear, a subject is notable for a Wikipedia article if it meets the general notability guidelines OR any of the subject specific guidelines. Then after that, it puts the GNG on the same page, so some people just skimming through get confused. They got a large cult following, they are notable, simple as that. The SSG were created because you can be notable without meeting the GNG. Anyone claiming otherwise, is just deluding themselves because they personally dislike them. Dream Focus 05:39, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Occasionally I hear about youtubers on podcasts or see a story on them on TV. This is the sort of coverage that we would need to see. I don't think there could be any automatic rule based on numbers of views. Otherwise Wikipedia pages could deserve article when they get enough views. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
It's quite simple... if independent secondary sources discuss a YouTuber or even a specific youtube video, we can (and should) have an article about it. If not, we shouldn't. The number of hits is a poor metric, since hit counts can be manipulated by a small number of people going repeatedly to the hit... having independent sources discuss a topic can not. Blueboar (talk) 17:29, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Interesting question, but no. I sympathize with the intent, but I see three problems. If there's no Reliable Sources then there's just no good way to support the article. The second issue issue is that Wikipedia doesn't cover News-Of-The-Day. A Youtube clip of a cute cat might get a bazillion views this week, but that doesn't mean it has any lasting notability. Notability implies a permanent status. Notability#Notability_is_not_temporary. It is the existence of Reliable Sources taking note of it that confer that permanent status. Wikipedia can't grant Notability just because we think a Youtuber has enough viewers to qualify. Third, if we did decided to do this, who is to decide how many followers is enough to qualify as Notable? Is there anyone here that would even dare to propose a number? Any Youtuber with more than X followers gets a Wikipedia page?? Alsee (talk) 05:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Firm oppose: I've yet to see an explanation of how an article lacking reliable sources can possibly satisfy our other inclusion criteria, particularly WP:V and WP:NOR. As such, this is moot. --NYKevin 19:10, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment People seem to be misunderstanding the discussion at hand. The discussion is not the merits of an article based on current policy and guidelines, thus are irrelevant. This discussion is about possible changes to current guidelines and policy if consensus decides in this discussion that the current policies and guidelines are not suitable to current media coverage of culture, in particular coverage of internet celebrities. Previous commenters are right, notability is not temporary. But I don't think popularity from YouTube qualifies as "temporary notability" as suggested. CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 20:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
The people who are "Opposing" are providing good discussion reasons. Consider it a compliment that people are talking your idea more seriously than you intended :) The fact that people treated it more formally than you intended just means that, had things gone the other way, things might have advanced faster than you had expected. The question of how Notability should interact with Youtubers was interesting to analyze, I like that you raised the question. Alsee (talk) 01:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose - There's alot of youtubers who have articles - Shaytards, Charles Trippy, Pewdiepie the list goes on, I personally think the guidelines are fine & fair & don't need changing at all. –Davey2010(talk) 00:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • People still seem to be misunderstanding, this isn't a vote, or even a !vote. It's not a straw poll. It's a discussion. CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 15:05, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose WP:Notability simply states If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list. If we exclude any of those criteria, other than Original Research what would we base the article on? SPACKlick (talk) 13:03, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment There is a lot of people opposing a discussion, it seems.  —Mysterytrey 00:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
People prefacing their comments with their stance on whether a change is needed or not, per common forms of RFC's doesn't mean they're not up for discussion and suggestion so isnt' assuming good faith. What people are opposing is allowing internet celebrities their own articles without reliable sources. SPACKlick (talk) 01:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Earlier I opposed, but I would now like to take into account the clarification that this was a discussion about changing Notability. I do not see this as a flaw in our current Notability standards. A lot of people see the term "Notable" and apply a common usage interpretation, thinking that it means "at least somewhat famous". Our usage of Notable is "Does it belong in an Encyclopedia". Our internet encyclopedia covers more than a paper encyclopedia normally would, mainly because we can. But I still think a chart-topping musician has a form of lasting historical notability that a Youtuber doesn't have, even if he does have more fans than the musician. As I said above, this isn't just my personal opinion. The world out there simply has not deemed to Take Note of Youtubers the same way that it Takes Note of musicians. If and when the world decides that Yuotubers have lasting significance, then existing policies will give them articles. Alsee (talk) 01:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Notability specifically discounts popularity, as, particularly on Youtube/etc, viewership numbers can be gamed. Better to stick to the standard of reliable sources per WP:N (which as noted above has allowed some YTers to have articles without problem). --MASEM (t) 05:08, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment' When people decide they want to comment on what I said, rather than just throwing around "notability" as currently defined, I'll be glad to try my best at rebutting. Until then, there's nothing I can say. Because, as I said, notability as currently defined excludes them and there's nothing I can say to change it with the current definition. This discussion was supposed to be about whether YouTubers are famous and worthy of articles in spite of current guidelines, and if so, adapt them. But commenters so far have merely thrown around the term and policies/guidelines as currently defined, which is getting this discussion so far from what I wanted. CRRaysHead90 | #RaysUp 19:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
I think you're ignoring that many people have. To paraphrase what I said above. The current standard is simply the topic being discussed in reliable sources. If we widen the standard from that, what would the article be based on? What would we put in it? Short of a directory stub saying "x is a youtube channel which at [date] had over [number] subscribers" what else could we include? SPACKlick (talk) 08:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose as per reasoning of SPACKlick; if the subject of an article, who happens to by a youtube content creator, has received significant coverage from reliable sources, WP:GNG, than the subject would be treated like any other potential article subject. I don't believe that a notability guideline that states that if content creator on youtube has X number of hits, that that should be a basis for determining that subject has receive significant coverage. If that were the case than certain internet memes would be article worthy.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't understand how we could write an encyclopedic article about a subject when the only source available is the information from youtube, which is a primary source of mixed reliability (Thinks like view count are probably reliable, but anything the owner can edit wont be). So lets say I want to right an article about such a person. How will I source it? How will I provide a proper encyclopedic coverage that goes beyond self published information already available at youtube? That is one of the major reasons for the notability guidelines. Monty845 14:50, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Pictogram voting comment.svg Comment: I applaud the original question, as a discussion of whether or not the current Notability guidelines sufficiently address the phenomenon of YouTube. All the quotations of current policy and !votes based on those policies aren't really pertinent to the discussion, since the point of the question is whether or not we should consider expanding the concept of WP:GNG to include new criteria or considerations. That said, I'm stymied as to what the new criteria would be unless we resorted to popularity or hits on the website neither of which seem to be an unreliable metric alone. Clearly when someone has a following and millions of hits, it does seem that that is notable, but I'm not sure there's a good way to establish an arbitrary count that would constitute such notability. I also agree that waiting for journalist to write about it (which, like it or not, is the primary focus of those seeking a Reliable Source) seems that someone could be indeed notable for a long time waiting for such coverage. I'm going to give this some more thought and get back to you. Vertium When all is said and done 02:19, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Worth noting @Vertium: that it's not just establishing they're notable. I fully agree there are notable youtubers with no RS discussion of them, the potential article also needs to be able to have some encyclopedic content, for which we also kind of need a source to have made the decision which facts are relevant or not otherwise a youtubers article will be either a directory entry listing only bare numbers like subscribers and viewcounts and video totals OR it will be a battleground of original research. SPACKlick (talk) 08:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose Nothing to fix. All is fine the way it is.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close comment, for when this inevitably comes up again: Aside from what the closer said, the underlying rationale is faulty: 'YouTube has become one of the most popular sites on the internet. Many of their users make a career off of it.' Sushi restaruants are among of the most type of eatery in the world. Many customers of them make a career out of sushi. But this does not make even really, really good sushi chefs notable, if they are not the subject of substantial coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources, at least some of them secondary sources. Most of the best people in the world at most professions, from grocery store clerks to truck drivers, are not notable. That's life. YouTube "stars" will eventually become notable, anyway, as media converge more, and as the nature of celebrity continues to shift. Give it time.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  17:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

RfC: How can non-web content be classed as web content?[edit]

There is no objection to changing

Any content which is distributed solely on the Internet is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline.


Any content accessed via the internet and engaged with primarily through a web browser is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline.

Pinging Adam9007 (talk · contribs).

There was minimal participation in this RfC likely because the opening post asked for thoughts and did not propose a specific wording. I recommend either starting an RfC about the wording proposed late in the discussion or boldly making the change to the guideline and starting an RfC if an editor objects to the change. Cunard (talk) 04:14, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As someone who knows that the world wide web actually is, including its differences from the internet, I am at a loss as to how increasingly many products are technically classed as web content, even if they are not web content at all by definition. As if how it's distributed somehow changes what it actually is. I simply do not understand footnote #1; is it saying that if it's not available in a shop, then it's web content, regardless of what is it? I've removed several A7 tags from articles about computer programs that are mainly, if not only available via the web, but according to this guideline, I was wrong to do so (WP:A7 links to this guideline), even though they're not in themselves web content (I'm talking here of things such as Android apps). A computer program is a computer program, regardless of how it's distributed. Under that rule, with the ever-growing use of the web as it slowly but surely replaces physical shops, it won't be that long before pretty much everything is classed as web content, even if it has nothing to do with the world wide web, but merely distributed via it. The web is already the primary, if not sole distribution medium for many products. If it's not actually on the web, it shouldn't come under here, but rather, WP:NPRODUCT or WP:NSOFTWARE. It's already extremely difficult, if not impossible to get many common programs (such as web browsers) from anywhere but the web, are they classed as web content? I'm also talking about other products that are available primarily/only via the web; it's just that I'm more familiar with computer programs that other types of product. Web content should mean just that; content that is accessed and used via the web (things like websites, blogs, youtube videos/channels etc, and note I said the web, not the internet), otherwise the term "web content" as it's currently used is misleading. To sum up, if something's a product, it should come under the products guideline, regardless of how it's distributed. What are your thoughts on this? Adam9007 (talk) 19:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Agree that web content definition needs revision. Under this definition, Adobe Creative Cloud, OS X El Capitan, Windows 10, and many other products would be "web content" since they're all distributed through the internet. At one point, most major software was shipped on disk, but now with increasing bandwidth the vast majority of content is sent through internet regardless of file size. Appable (talk) 21:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) This doesn't seem like it requires an RfC at this point, but you do raise a decent point. I don't think I ever stopped to consider the implications of "Any content which is distributed solely on the Internet is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline". So all of the albums that are self-published on the web, all of the books published only on the web, the Adobe Creative Cloud, and every Netflix original series? It looks like that line is more than 10 years old, added here. Looking forward to hearing what others think, but perhaps you'd like to propose a way to clarify the scope? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:44, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
@Rhododendrites: I think it is worth an RfC because it means there is a loophole that makes many products strictly speaking eligible for CSD A7, despite A7 explicitly excluding products of any kind. I propose that all products come under the products guideline, regardless of how they're distributed. Adam9007 (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
But that relies on a clear definition of "product"? Is a paid VPN service a product? A digital-only album (free or paid)? ... — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:21, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
@Rhododendrites: I don't know about those (though I imagine they're products), but I do know software are products. As both me and Appable: have said, so much software is distributed primarily on the web these days, which means they're classed as web content, and are therefore A7-eligible, despite A7 explicitly excluding software. Albums are also excluded from A7 (though they do come under A9, which does not explicitly include web content) Adam9007 (talk) 22:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
I'm not disagreeing with the premise, just the proposed fix. I just think saying "products" creates another ambiguity.
How about something like this change. Instead of "Any content which is distributed solely on the Internet is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline" we have "Any content accessed and engaged with primarily through a web browser is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline"?
The main idea is ditching "distributed" (digital distribution is not what it was in 2006 and that word opens things up a bit too much now) and focusing on a specific form of interaction (via a web browser) rather than the much-too-broad "Internet". It could go on to specifically exclude certain types of content covered by other subject-specific notability criteria. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 22:46, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
@Rhododendrites: Yes, I think the latter quotation is a more accurate description of "web content", although not everything accessed through a web browser is web content. Some software used to (do they still?) come with HTML help files for instance. And yes, the term "Internet" is indeed far too broad; in fact, the Internet and the web aren't even the same things! It certainly doesn't help that this very guideline doesn't distinguish between the two either (I even launched an RfD on WP:INTERNET!). In my mind, web content is anything that's accessed and used on the world wide web. Although many things can be downloaded from the web, they are not used on or via the web and instead run on the user's computer. How about "Any content accessed via the internet and engaged with primarily through a web browser is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline"? Adam9007 (talk) 00:41, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
  • If someone wanted to create an essay about what they do and don't consider to be "web content", that could work. And after a few rounds of discussion on that page, it would probably result in a solid proposal for WP:VPP. Anyway, that's what I do. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:04, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
@NinjaRobotPirate: Unfortunately, I really don't think that would work, unless it's made into a guideline. People will just point out that it's only an essay, as I've seen a alot of people do with regards to WP:A7M. It's the guidelines and policies that need changing; simply writing an essay won't have any impact here. Adam9007 (talk) 22:15, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
Right, you can't use an essay to influence policy debates. But you can use it to start a discussion that will clearly identify a problem and and propose a specific solution. It looks kind of like that's what you wanted to do with this RFC, but they usually propose a specific solution, which people then vote to support or oppose. If you listed what you think counts as web content, then I could reply to that with my thoughts. And then, after a few other people have joined in the discussion, we'd have an idea of what possible problems exist and what possible solutions we should propose. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:30, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Thanks for starting the RfC, Adam9007: I was not previously aware of some web content not necessarily being online, and feel knowing this is beneficial. I'm unsure as to what final decision could be made, but I feel starting an essay, as suggested by NinjaRobotPirate, would be beneficial. Thanks, Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 12:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Rubbish computer: As you can see, my biggest nitpick about this is that it technically makes a lot of things which aren't supposed to be A7 eligible (namely software and games), A7 eligible despite them being explicitly excluded from A7. As others have pointed out, the "Any content that is distributed primarily through the internet is considered web content" bit may have made sense 10 years ago, but nowadays, so much stuff is distributed like that that at this rate, pretty much everything will become web content in the not too distant future. One example of this is Operation: Inner Space. That is a video game designed for 80386 PCs running Windows 3.1, yet under the current guidelines, that would most definitely fall under web content! (and therefore be A7 eligible despite being a software product) The only way to obtain it is through the developer's website, and although they used to send a physical copy (I have one), I believe they now send it via email. It's absolutely ridiculous to call it web content purely because that's how it's distributed! Adam9007 (talk) 14:46, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Adam9007 I'm not really sure as to what solution can be proposed to this: the current guideline does appear outdated. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 14:51, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Rubbish computer: I'd suggest, as suggested above, changing the wording to "Any content accessed via the internet and engaged with primarily through a web browser is considered web content for the purposes of this guideline", thereby excluding stuff that's merely distributed via the web or internet. Adam9007 (talk) 14:56, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Adam9007:In that case I support that change. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 14:58, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
@Rubbish computer: I've just remembered that there's also the footnote that states products sold primarily on the web count as web content. That needs changing too. Adam9007 (talk) 14:59, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Adam9007I agree. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 15:03, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.