Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

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Should Category:Virtual reality games be non-diffusing?[edit]

Should Category:Virtual reality games be marked as a non-diffusing subcategory? Games were previously categorized to both this category and any VR platform underneath it (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, etc.) I see the benefit of restoring its categorization in both because being an HTC Vive game does not preclude its dual status as a "virtual reality" game for purposes of lookup, but I'm not enough of a category buff to have an analogue in mind. Open to opinions. czar 19:31, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

@Czar: I'm not very familiar with the category guidelines either, but I think diffusing subcategories help address concerns of overcategorization. I'm not sure why a "Virtual reality games" category even exists to be honest. We have a category for first-person shooters, but we don't have one for first-person video games. --Niwi3 (talk) 10:21, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
But we do have a category on Category:Shooter video games, as we should. These categories are, at the very least, useful for categorizing subcategories. Whether the virtual reality games category should be non-diffusing... I'm leaning to yes, because it's a particularly vital aspect of a game, to the level where it might define what kind of thing it is. However, I am not too savy in categorizing either, and I'd rather keep this decision for the people who actually work with categories. ~Mable (chat) 11:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Bumping thread. Any other feedback before we move on this? czar 16:54, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
    • On what manner do you want to move on this? ~Mable (chat) 09:26, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata and genre tables[edit]

Is wikidata at a good enough development stage to be used to generate list articles from it yet? We have genre lists with game title, developer, publisher, release date, etc. fields that so far cannot be replaced with category intersections. I wonder if wikidata may be able to fill that role now? SharkD  Talk  22:01, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Izno may have a better answer, but it sounds like you want to essentially run a query, i.e. find items where genre is x. Wikidata, to my knowledge, will not work in that manner from enwiki (Access from Enwiki is built upon requesting specific entities). Over at Wikidata itself, there may be some tools like that though. -- ferret (talk) 22:13, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
@SharkD: There is no 'official' support using Wikidata methods yet (though the team is working on it), but ListeriaBot can provide a bot-automated list. I don't know the specifics, but you can poke your head in and see. --Izno (talk) 01:12, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if you can tell this bot to only search before or after a specific date. Because the RPG lists in particular are divided into multiple pages based on the release dates. SharkD  Talk  00:55, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
@SharkD: Details to ask the bot op. I'm fairly certain it works via SPARQL, so dates are trivial to handle. --Izno (talk) 03:27, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

How does Wikidata handle citations? Can one be added to each datum? Will citations screw up the search routines? SharkD  Talk  18:38, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

@SharkD: Yes, one can be added to each claim. No, the search routines are unaffected by the citations, unless you deliberate query for data with/without citations... and etc. --Izno (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


Out of curiosity, do we have a guideline about whether or not to put an ESRB or other type of rating in video game articles? Gestrid (talk) 21:30, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

We don't include age ratings anymore. The only time it should be mentioned is if there is significant coverage surrounding the topic. e.g. censorship or something like ESRB re-rating of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. --The1337gamer (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Another example would be Manhunt 2 which was originally rated as AO and was then later edited to get a M rating since the vast majority of retailers and speciality game stores will not sell AO rated games.-- (talk) 01:08, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
ESRB rating property on Wikidata. I've got code to import the ESRB database into it, but simply can't understand how Wikidata should have it structured. Multiple certificates (references) for the same rating on different platforms, if a game been retroactively re-rated (GTA:SA) how should that be indicated. Is Minecraft's platform Java or Window/Mac/Linux/Whatever. — Dispenser 03:47, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
@Dispenser: property P852 claim <Q#> qualifier P580 (start date) <date> optional qualifier P582 (end date) <date> optional qualifier P400 (platform) <Q#> (and in the case of Minecraft, personal computer) source (and from there I'll point you to d:Help:Sources). --Izno (talk) 19:35, 2 December 2016 (UTC)
@Dispenser: That said, most contributors are leery of database copyright. Before beginning any sort of import, verify that you are acting in accord with the law of the U.S. w.r.t. database law. --Izno (talk) 19:36, 2 December 2016 (UTC)


I've just found this orphan article while doing an AWB run. I know nothing about it, I was going to prod it, but wondered if someone fancied the challenge of breathing a bit of life into it. - X201 (talk) 10:06, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Here's another Pop! The Balloon Dog Puzzle Game - X201 (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, it looks like Seabeard has enough sourcing in the article itself to probably survive deletion, but Pop seems much less likely, calling itself "an indie game from 1996"... Sergecross73 msg me 13:49, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Handheld consoles with TV-out are "hybrid" game consoles?[edit]

The Nintendo Switch is notable for being a hybrid console. However, handheld consoles like the Genesis Nomad and the PSP (PSP-2000/3000) has a native TV output. Are they also considered hybrid consoles? – // Hounder4 // 16:24, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

No; I think the key aspect of the Switch to consider is that to play it on a TV, you have to use it in a different manner than the handheld version (eg docking the screen, using the joy con's separately from it), rather than just a cable port that supports a mini-HDMI port or the like. The latter is a convinence options but doesn't make it hybrid. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Agreed- I can plug in an hdmi cable and a keyboard/mouse combo into my laptop and set it on a desk to use; that doesn't make it a desktop/laptop hybrid. --PresN 03:31, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Agreed as well. There's probably lots of possible concocted scenarios, but it's best to stick to what sources commonly say, which is unlikely to be those other scenarios. Sergecross73 msg me 13:55, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. What about Shield Portable? I bet it's a handheld console as well, and sources in the article doesn't say that Shield is a hybrid game console. – // Hounder4 // 16:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Is "hybrid console" actually a thing or is that just a term people use to describe the Switch? You all realize we don't have to create this categorization. I feel like we're ahead of the sources again. I'd rather see other examples of "hybrid console" being used in sources first... ~Mable (chat) 16:56, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
It has definitely been applied by RSes to describe the Switch. [1] for example. --MASEM (t) 18:25, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I mean besides the Switch. Hybrid video game console only has sources talking about the Switch and only talks about the Switch. Is "hybrid video game console" actually a thing or is it just a popular description for the Switch? ~Mable (chat) 18:40, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Seems to be just for the Switch (for now), but there are always firsts and in 10-15 years this could be what every game device will be. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 20:07, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Should I bring up Crystal Ball? I am worried about citogenesis occurring if we have an article or category for this term already. I'd rather wait a year or two to see what other console manufacturers do and how journalists respond to those before we start "making this a thing." ~Mable (chat) 20:17, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree, but most reliable sources on the topic are already calling it this, so the problem lies with them, doesn't it? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • I just redirected Hybrid video game console to Nintendo Switch. Until you have reliable sources discussing hybrid consoles as their own independent subject, and not just passing mentions of the concept in relation to the Switch, you do not have the sources for an article. - hahnchen 21:38, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Pinging NOTNOTABLE to this discussion, as they just reverted you. Gestrid (talk) 21:41, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Frankly, I think instead the article should note that the only hybrid console so far is the Switch. However, "Hybrid Video Game Console" is much more general than "Nintendo Switch" and I don't think they're close enough to be nothing but a redirect. NOTNOTABLE (talk) 21:43, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Notnotable, do you know any other hybrid consoles? ~Mable (chat) 22:00, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
  • No, that's not my point at all. NOTNOTABLE (talk) 22:26, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
If "Hybrid console" has only been applied to one single system (the Switch), a separate article is inappropriate. On the other hand, and I haven't been able to check for sure, but if the concept of a hybrid console has been discussed prior to the Switch's announcements (or even separate from the NX) - thus being more about the theorizing of how hybrid consoles would function - then that might be appropriate for an article. I just don't think there had been any serious discussion of such a console concept to justify an article. --MASEM (t) 22:31, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree with this. If anything, Hybrid video game console should be merged into video game console. I'm fine with the first line of Nintendo Switch referring to the device as a hybrid console, and I'm fine with describing the concept in one or two sentences in the video game console article, but I don't believe it deserves its own article already, if it's just a description for the Switch. ~Mable (chat) 12:26, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Then someone just delete it. Yes, hybrid video game console could mean more than the Switch, but it currently doesn't and there are no sources discussing the concept. I redirected it because the article should not exist. - hahnchen 21:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

New articles - 25 November[edit]

New articles from the past week. This post has been made to help raise the visibility of new articles that fall under this project.

19 November

  • Completely rewritten, unlikely to be deleted now. Sergecross73 msg me 13:53, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

20 November

21 November

22 November

23 November

24 November

25 November

Salavat (talk) 06:26, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Reviews of early access games[edit]

I've never dealt with this issue before, and I didn't see anything in MOS:VG about it, so I ask: should we add reviews of early access games? For example, RPS posted early impressions of Empyrion - Galactic Survival. I'm not sure whether it's appropriate to cite this as a review, though I've used it to describe the gameplay. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:07, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

It's fine, but mention that it's a review of an early access version--IDVtalk 03:10, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Seeing as early access games can be notable on their own, this seems like an obvious 'yes'. You can also divide the reception section into "pre-release" reception and "post-release" reception, if that works. ~Mable (chat) 12:28, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Absolutely, though it might be a good idea to consider whether that information goes into the reception or the development sections. I would try to avoid describing gameplay using pre-release reviews and instead document that content as development, since the gameplay may change prior to release (and it's good to document those changes anyway). --Izno (talk) 14:55, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
  • I like integrating them into the History or Development section. I would reserve the Reception section for final reviews. Assuming the game does not get canceled. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • It would probably be most applicable in the development section, because the developers will likely change things in the game based on early access feedback, so it would flow better. I suppose depending on the game and length of article it could also work in the Reception section, but in that case extra care needs to be taken not to mislead the reader into thinking they are final reviews. They would need to be under a "pre-release" sub-section or something like that. TarkusAB 16:28, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Edits to Final Fantasy series template[edit]

Can someone help out with a dispute at Template:Final Fantasy series? HÊÚL. is insisting that the "main series" row, which contains Final Fantasies 1-15, should also have Final Fantasy Type-0, because "The HD version of Type-0 had a worldwide release and is multi-platform (Playstation 4, Xbox One and Windows). It has companion games too (Agito and Online). Every game on Fabula Nova Crystallis subseries is part of the main series.". Frankly, I would disagree that any "subseries" belongs on the main line, which is currently reserved for just the main, numbered games out of the ~100 Final Fantasy games, but I also don't want to get into an edit war about it, so if anyone else has an opinion that would be helpful. --PresN 21:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

First of all it is not a "subseries". I disagree that any subseries belongs on the main line too, but it is not the case here. Just because Type-0 is not a numbered game do not mean that it is not a main title in the series. Like I said before take the Resident Evil series as an example: Code: Veronica and Revelations are not numbered games and are still part of the main series. HÊÚL. (talk) 21:52, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
@HÊÚL.: What may apply to Resident Evil does not apply to Final Fantasy. Or Dragon Quest. The main series is only for the very first Final Fantasy title and all entries marked with a Roman numeral. All other entries are considered spin-offs or sequels, and are not included in the main list. They have their own lists separate from the main infobox, such as Final Fantasy IV, or even their own infoboxes such as Final Fantasy X or Fabula Nova Crystallis. --ProtoDrake (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
I understand this but Type-0 is not like Crystal Chronicles, Dissidia, Tactics. It is not a sequel or a spin-off. It is part of the main series even if it do not carry a roman numeral. HÊÚL. (talk) 01:09, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • Ridiculous. It's clearly a spinoff. It's not a numbered entry, and conceptually plays out differently than any numbered entries. Also, on Wikipedia, we go by what sources say, and they call it a spinoff:
  3. (Level Up excerpt)
  6. Sergecross73 msg me 01:26, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
Of course it was considered a spin-off. It was made as a spin-off of Final Fantasy XIII. Even Final Fantasy XV was created as a spin-off from FF13 at first. HÊÚL. (talk) 01:58, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
What exactly is your argument then? That slapping on a quick HD gloss on a handheld spinoff somehow makes a mainline entry? I'd also like to point out that most of my sources refer to the HD version. On that note - do you have any sources calling any version a mainline entry? Sergecross73 msg me 02:01, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
True, but 15 was eventually repackaged and redeveloped as the next in the main series, so that's moot to bring up. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:06, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
I agree, the fact that FF XV was originally meant to be a spinoff before being repacked as a main series entry has noting to do with type 0 which was never repackaged in such a matter unless we are somehow arguing that the repackaging of that one game automatically makes all spinoffs as part of the main series.-- (talk) 16:10, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
  • There is no valid argument here to list as a main entry. I don't know of any source that says Type-0 is a main entry. Even if there was, there is an overwhelming majority of sources stating that it's indeed a spin-off. Simple as that. TarkusAB 16:17, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, looking back, I warned this same editor earlier in the year for making a similarly bizarre/unfounded claim that Etrian Odyssey series was a spinoff of the Megami Tensei series due to the existence of crossover game Persona Q. So, he appears to have a habit of taking some creative liberties with this sort of thing... Sergecross73 msg me 16:31, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Update Template:Vg welcome?[edit]

I've copied Template:Welcomeg, which is currently being "subst:" into Template:Vg welcome, into Template:Vg welcome/sandbox. If we did this in the template, I believe it would allow us to customize the template more than just tacking on a "Suggested WikiProjects" section at the end. What do you think of this change? Should we do it? I should note that such a drastic change may require an update to Twinkle, which currently can add {{welcome-videogames}}, a redirect to {{vg welcome}}. Gestrid (talk) 18:22, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Seems quite attractive. --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
@ProtoDrake: At this point, Template:Vg welcome (which still uses {{subst:welcomeg}}) looks exactly the same as Template:Vg welcome/sandbox (which doesn't subst Template:welcomeg anymore). Gestrid (talk) 18:44, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't think all of those links do new/old users much good. Here's the template I use to welcome editors who edit productively: {{subst:User:Czar/template/vgwelcome}} (link). Feel free to add variations at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Video_games/Templates#User_talk_templates czar 03:03, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
    • I think Czar's template is better simply because I actually managed to read the whole thing in a reasonable timespan. ~Mable (chat) 06:49, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
      • I like it, too, but I think we should include at least the standard links in our template. Gestrid (talk) 06:53, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
    • I dunno, the Welcomeg certainly looks overwhelming; but I distinctly remember when I got the simple Welcome template at my talk page, and how those five links helped me make sense of all that "Wikipedia:" space, which I yet didn't understand after a year or so of editing Wikipedia. Diego (talk) 13:29, 1 December 2016 (UTC)


Will {{Current event}} be put on The Game Awards 2016 while the awards show is going on? Gestrid (talk) 19:56, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't think it would automatically. It's a maintenance template like any other, feel free to do so. -- ferret (talk) 19:58, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I know it wouldn't be put on automatically. I was just wondering if it would be applicable during the show. Gestrid (talk) 20:14, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Not sure on how other award shows are done, but I don't see the harm in it. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 21:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
To me, it would make sense. Since The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild and Hideo Kojima (after his rough break-up with Konami) will be there, I imagine a lot of people will be looking up info about The Game Awards. Not to mention, it'll almost literally be streaming everywhere. And I imagine some of us will be updating the article as the awards are announced. I'll probably be updating the prose (ex. future tense to past tense, making the form match last year's article, etc.) a little bit before the event actually starts. Gestrid (talk) 21:59, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
I've always thought that semiprotecting articles during the day of the event like this would better in the longrun, but you could make the case that it's discriminating against users who wouldn't have the rights to edit a semiprot article. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:28, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Not to mention, admins aren't supposed to preemptively protect articles. Gestrid (talk) 05:19, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Yup, this is correct. I forget the exact link to it, but I always remember it, because it was something I didn't learn until my RFA was ongoing, and I almost answered wrong. You can't pre-preemptively protect under current rules. That being said, I'm personally fine with protecting rather quickly after the first instance of vandalism in cases like this, where trouble is likely, so feel free to contact me as soon as you see it start to happen. Sergecross73 msg me 13:46, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
@Sergecross73: The link is WP:PROT#Guidance for administrators. Personally, I would go for PC1, except for the fact that it'll be a current event. As someone who has attempted to review articles undergoing constant editing, I can say it's pretty hard to keep up. Current event articles are likely even worse. Gestrid (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
As a point of note, I've never encountered an article on an awards show that was ongoing that needed that type of immediate edit protection. There will be a lot of conflicting edits, but not vandalizing or problematic ones, so I would not worry about preemptive protection. Adding Current Event though is fine. --MASEM (t) 15:35, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
I think the issue is more the traffic of volume from IPs causing constant edit conflicts, which can be annoying (but there is no time deadline on articles, so it's not that big of a deal). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

To add Steam releases or not to add Steam releases...[edit]

That is the question. Is it all right or even recommended to mention (with reliable sources of course) that a video game (such as this) has been released in let us say 1999 and eventually on a website—specifically Steam or—in let us say 2013? (Sorry if my language is verbose). Gamingforfun365 (talk) 19:36, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Seeing this as a transition from a physical store release to its first digital release, it seems completely fine to include. If it were a digital distribution title they initially sold themselves and later transferred the store to Steam, that's less helpful as that's just highlighting a specific storefront. Note that if they do both Steam and GOG (for example), it might be better to normalize out as "digital storefronts" so as to not give excessive weight to the storefront(s) specifically. --MASEM (t) 19:49, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
If we're talking about inclusion in the infobox, it may be best just to say that no matter what, Masem. Gestrid (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
A "release" section is perfect for describing the release history of a game, if covered by reliable sources. Seeing as digital releases may be (re)reviewed, this information is particularly important as context when expanding the reception section. ~Mable (chat) 20:04, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
Agreed with Mable. For most modern PC games, it's not a big deal that a game is out on Steam - that's where almost all PC games are sold nowadays - but older games' digital re-releases often get some amount of coverage.--IDVtalk 20:26, 1 December 2016 (UTC)
It's all about 'dem coverage ^_^ ~Mable (chat) 20:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Popular pages report[edit]

We had a thread a bit ago about our "popular pages" report being down, so a public service announcement that the service is up for discussion as a community upkeep proposal: czar 01:08, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

CD-i games from The Legend of Zelda series[edit]

Does this article need to exist? Three years ago it was split off into two separate articles Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon and Zelda's Adventure, both of which are longer articles and seem to cover all the information in it. It made sense having CD-i games from The Legend of Zelda series before the split but now it seems kind of redundant when its scope is covered in two other articles. Also I know its is GA, but bare in mind it was assessed like 8 years. --The1337gamer (talk) 01:12, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@The1337gamer: If you believe it needs to be re-assessed, the procedure is given at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment. Gestrid (talk) 03:26, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Well, no, that's not particularly the issue, since the GA process is unrelated to things like notability and mergers. Technically, I find the article to be acceptable since it meets our requirement of a series having 3 titles and sources discussing it collectively, though personally I'd be fine with it if someone integrated all the content to the individual articles. Sergecross73 msg me 04:38, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Other than the lead, the rest of the article is already integrated in the other two. --The1337gamer (talk) 09:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I too found it odd that this article was kept around after Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon's creation, which I assumed was based on the conclusion that most sources discuss those games separately from Zelda's Adventure. After all, aside from platform and series there's nothing to link the other two games to Zelda's Adventure; they were developed separately, were released in different years, use significantly different gameplay, and even have completely different graphical styles. We don't have articles titled "NES games from The Legend of Zelda series" or "Nintendo DS games from The Legend of Zelda series". I favor redirecting it to Link: The Faces of Evil and Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon, or possibly turning it into a disambiguation page.--Martin IIIa (talk) 15:39, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Short Start, C, and B article examples[edit]

I was wondering if someone could find and add to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Assessment some very short examples of Start, C, and B class articles. I noticed the example for Start is unusually lengthy, and I think a short example would be best to make clear the most salient aspects of the different classes. --Odie5533 (talk) 01:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Very short Start-Class (some are redirect pages, though), C-Class and B-Class articles. --A Sword in the Wind (talk | changes) 06:26, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Is that just a generated list? I was looking more for short articles which have been verified to be properly assessed. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:56, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Xbox One now PR[edit]

I have just nominated the article for the FA-status. I advise editors to participate in the discussion and contribute constructively to the article. Gamingforfun365 (talk) 03:35, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Uhhh I know what you're getting at here, but it kind of sounds like you're lecturing the WikiProject on a whole when you say things like you want to "advise editors" to "contribute constructively"... Sergecross73 msg me 04:34, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
s/advise/humbly request --Odie5533 (talk) 05:57, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I checked the edit stats. Top editors are ViperSnake151, you, GrandDrake, Zero Serenity, GoneIn60, Ferret, ThePowerofX, etc. I'm not familiar with FAC, but has/should he contact the other primary editors, namely yourself and ViperSnake? Sorry if my question comes across as rude; as I say, I am not familiar with FAC. --Odie5533 (talk) 06:02, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
It wouldn't hurt, but I don't believe it's a requirement, as a number of editors have taken a bunch of my B-class article rewrites/creations to GA without saying a word to me. In this case, it's fine I was contacted all by the same - I've monitored the article since its inception, but it's mostly just been vandalism cleanup and consensus maintaining, I've actually written very little of the article. Sergecross73 msg me 14:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
At a quick glance, I'll say that it'll fail in its current state. Article has bare URLS, inconsistent reference format, prose isn't up to standard. I see at least one unreliable source, one unsourced statement and a bunch of deadlinks sources. At the very least you should fix the easy and obvious stuff before nominating. --The1337gamer (talk) 09:07, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I would agree with this. The FA standards are incredible high, and honestly both this and PS4 feel like they're probably on the lower end of what's acceptable for a GA really... Sergecross73 msg me 14:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Edits like this should be done long before going to FAC. FAC is not to get advice on how to improve the article. Do a peer review if you want that. -- ferret (talk) 17:04, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
My problem with peer reviews is that it does not motivate editors (other than the peer review-requesters) to improve articles as much as FAC pages, and it is absolutely true in my opinion. Gamingforfun365 (talk) 17:36, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
Should I instead do GARs for both the Xbox One and PlayStation 4 articles? Gamingforfun365 (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
I think you're kind of missing the point. The purpose of FAC isn't to motivate editors to improve an article. You don't nominate an article with obvious issues for FA status on a whim and expect other editors to fix them all for you. The purpose of the PR process is to identify theses issues and get feedback. Then you fix those issues and prepare the article before the nomination. If you need assistance, it would be better to directly contact editors that have contributed to the article before. --The1337gamer (talk) 17:48, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I strongly recommend you withdraw the FAC as it's quite a way off from meeting the criteria in its current state. The best way is to offer quid pro quo kind of things if you want people to participate in a peer review. JAGUAR  17:50, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

@Gamingforfun365: Please can you undo the page move you just did? The FAC bot is now going to register that redirect as a legitimate FAC, whereas it now leads to a GA reassessment. You should have waited until the FAC coordinators closed it themselves. JAGUAR  17:54, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Initiating GAR. Gamingforfun365 (talk) 18:24, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Make up your mind as to what you want, Gamingforfun. God sakes one shouldn't see an article go through an FAC, GAR, and PR in 24 hours. GamerPro64 15:20, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

If you don't understand the processes you should be asking someone for guidance, IMO. I advised you to do a PR, not a GAR, before you opened the GAR. -- ferret (talk) 15:28, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
I wish that I had listened to you, @Ferret:. I am sorry for not listening to your advice. Gamingforfun365 (talk) 05:12, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

New articles - 2 December[edit]

New articles from the past week. This post has been made to help raise the visibility of new articles that fall under this project.

23 November

25 November

26 November

27 November

28 November

29 November

30 November

1 December

2 December

Salavat (talk) 07:13, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Clash of Clans Troop articles[edit]

A user just made 19 Clash of Clans troops articles Category:Clash_of_Clans_troops. Not sure if they should all be deleted, or merged into a List, but that seems like a lot of articles. --Odie5533 (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

We definitely shouldn't have articles on all of these, and I doubt even a list. This is absolutely gamecruft and is suitable for a clash of clans wiki, not Wikipedia. Pinging the article creator SeniorStar. Sam Walton (talk) 23:14, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Redirecting them all to Clash of Clans and deleting the category seems like a pretty uncontroversial move imo.--IDVtalk 23:17, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
  • In addition to Samwalton9's ping, I've left a message on the user's talk page to comment here. Gestrid (talk) 23:20, 3 December 2016 (UTC)
You guys can't do so. I have seen several other articles of video game characters. For eg. Giant (Dungeons & Dragons) It is also video game character. Also, those articles are notable and real.(look at the official website for more info) Kind regardsSeniorStar (talk) 00:04, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Hi SeniorStar, and welcome to Wikipedia. I'm afraid that your Clash of Clan troop articles don't meet WP:GNG, which is a guideline on article notability. They must be at least backed up by numerous and reliable sources, which in this case they're not. JAGUAR  00:08, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
These troops are listed in the official website of clash of clans. So it can be taken as reliable source.→SeniorStar (talk) 00:15, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
It may be a reliable source, but it's not independent. In other words it's a primary source, which isn't usable in this case. Gestrid (talk) 00:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
How can I get secondary sources for video game characters ? Currently available sources from official website are most needed for this article.→SeniorStar (talk) 00:29, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
You don't "get secondary sources". Either they exist, or they do not.  · Salvidrim! ·  00:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Reliable sources are provided in the article(from official site) and thats all needed. Now I think its time to stop this discussion. RegardsSeniorStar (talk) 00:42, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
You don't get it. There are no reliable secondary sources for your articles, so therefore they cannot be created. JAGUAR  00:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Oh you guys mean my articles should be deleted as it does't cite secondary sources but what about articles like Gopal Bansa which does't cite any sources neither primary nor secondary?→SeniorStar (talk) 00:53, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

That does have a reference. It's just not cited correctly. Gestrid (talk) 01:05, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The short version is that finding other articles with faults doesn't excuse the faults of the article you're trying to defend - its at best "irrelevant", and at worst, just shows that both/all should be deleted. I too support deletion. I don't see any evidence of them meeting the WP:GNG. (The GNG cannot be met through first party sources.) Sergecross73 msg me 02:22, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
  • Basically, for an article to exist on Wikipedia, the subject must have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". (WP:GNG). The official website doesn't count for this because it's not independent of the subject. --Odie5533 (talk) 06:48, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
  • AFD these. They won't even make useful redirects. Happy to discuss the issues here but no use bothering if the creator isn't interested. Wikia may be a better outlet for this writing, if that's what you want to do (see what WP is not--not a place for articles on every fictional character in existence) czar 04:02, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
    • I agree that these articles should be deleted as they have not been proven to be notable. Gamingforfun365 (talk) 04:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
  • AFD started. Although it primarily lists one, it shall constitute an opinion covering all articles that appear in the category. ViperSnake151  Talk  06:14, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
Okay I agree that these articles are not needed but can I create a single article called List of Clash of Clans characters and include every troops details there ? →SeniorStar (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
No, because it fails WP:LISTN. Clash of Clans characters are not a notable group. It's also still WP:GAMECRUFT material. Just summarise the information appropriately in the Clash of Clans article with reliable sources. --The1337gamer (talk) 13:31, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Team Fortress 3[edit]

The redirect Team Fortress 3, which currently points to Overwatch, has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 December 4#Team Fortress 3. The discussion would benefit from input from those with knowledge of the Team Fortress and Overwatch games (and any related articles). Please leave your comments as part of the linked discussion, any left here are unlikely to be seen. Thanks. Thryduulf (talk) 10:00, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

ToeJam & Earl at FAR[edit]

I have nominated ToeJam & Earl for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. JAGUAR  12:10, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Issue with title of article[edit]

I recently noticed Thr article Spawn (handheld game) and believe that it should be moved to Spawn (1999 video game). If someone agrees with this can these please move it since I can't.-- (talk) 17:59, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

  • Yes check.svg Done, and also provided some general guideline edits. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:45, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Potential article - Decisive Campaigns: Barbarossa[edit]

I'm seeing a lot of results for this game in the WP:VG/S search but the vast majority are for one of two works: Wargamer and RPS. Is there notability here? From what I saw, there's also a number of articles for Decisive Campaigns, so it looks like there's a series there. --Izno (talk) 20:44, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

  • In addition to the multiple articles that both RPS and Wargamer have published, Softpedia published a review and PCGamesN ran an article. I would say the game is notable enough for an article. --Odie5533 (talk) 21:43, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for advice- BVE / openBVE article[edit]

Hopefully this is ending up in the right place......

First off, a disclaimer- I'm the primary developer for the currently 'active' fork of openBVE

At present, I've made a few small cleanups to the article, and removed a pile of junk from the end (openBVE 'Update 4' as far as anyone in the community is aware is a very bad case of vapourware, and the deleted stuff was nowhere close to guidelines....)

What I need now is advice on exactly where to go from here. The talk page is rather a mess, was last used in 2010, and refers to '00s of deleted revisions.

Some thoughts:

  • openGL / openAL - I can quite happily link to source files on github if you want these cited, but other than that, I've got no idea how to cite correctly.
  • Forks- At present, I think I'm the only person other than Michelle (original developer of openBVE) to do any meaningful work on the sim. However, there are several sites claiming to be more or less official (And Michelle's site has long gone), hence I don't exactly want to position myself as the true, verbatim source, hence the adding of the 'forks' subheading.
  • Features- The talk page puts many of these as unverifiable. Happy to provide code demos etc, but how on earth should I 'verify' these?
  • Authenticity- Again, we've got a problem with proving a lot of stuff to Wikipedia standards if you don't want to accept forums/ personal sites. Neither BVE or openBVE have ever been commercialized, hence they're rather niche in forums, and AFAIK have never really had mainstream media coverage....
  • Cross-platform- Another 'proof' problem! I can provide links to builds which will run on anything which has Mono and OpenGL 1.0, and Windows, Mac and Linux builds are posted on my site. (We're also in the Debian repos, although rather out of date at the minute; I suppose Debian is a source)
  • History- The BVE Trainsim history seriously needs merging and slimming a little, advice?

Overall, I can provide a perspective of someone who has been with the BVE/ openBVE community since it's inception, but exactly how much of this translates into an encyclopaedia I don't know.....

Advice welcome! Leezer3 (talk) 14:33, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

@Leezer3: The biggest problem I'm seeing is that the article may not display the notability of the topic. I see a source at Wired, and there's the RPS source in there for openBVE (and possibly others), and I suspect there may have been something at 1UP, lost to time. --Izno (talk) 15:40, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

That's an issue I'm not sure how to handle. Train-sims are a niche topic to start with, and as neither BVE or openBVE have been commercialised, the sort of sources you seem to want in that front (e.g. large editorially independent publications) simply don't exist :)

Clearly though, the article doesn't belong as part of a larger overview of train-sims... Leezer3 (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

simply don't exist :) Yes, that is usually a problem with niche games. This case is an edge case given that there does exist sourcing for the set of topics related to BVE. Usually when there is not another topic (as you hint at re. larger overview of train-sims) with which to merge a topic which may not be notable, the article is deleted. Do you know if train simulators are covered in train-related magazines? --Izno (talk) 17:35, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Essentially not, at least in the U.K. Train Simulator (The commercial one by Dovetail Games) gets some coverage for its yearly release, but that's about it. On the flip side there are 'e-magazines' & dedicated sites e.g.UKTrainsim / on train simulations, but they don't seem to meet your criteria... Leezer3 (talk) 19:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Talk:TimeSplitters (series)[edit]

I invite you to an ongoing RM discussion to improve consensu. --George Ho (talk) 19:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Video games in the news.[edit]

I always enjoy when a video game-related article makes the In The News frontpage module (safe for Recent Deaths, of course ^_^;). Pokémon Go got an "ongoing" this year because of its enormous impact, and The International 2016 got a blurb primarily because of its enormous prize pool. Recently, the League of Legends World Championship didn't make it because the article wasn't of high enough quality at the time. I just nominated the Capcom Cup, the biggest fighting game tournament of the year, after putting a lot of work in the article throughout the season. Besides wanting to bring some attention to the nomination, I wanted to bring some attention to the whole concept of video games in the news. I am also wondering if I forgot any past ITN blurbs. ~Mable (chat) 20:25, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Wind Waker 2 redirects[edit]

Given this interview, I think we need to discuss where Wind Waker 2, The Wind Waker 2, and related redirects should actually redirect. The two redirects I've mentioned below have a history of switching between Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass. So which article should they redirect to? Gestrid (talk) 23:58, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

They should be redlinked, as either proposed target is misleading, and "Wind Waker 2" is not something that exists. Otherwise retarget to TP as it is mentioned there as a working name for the game and not mentioned at all in PH.  · Salvidrim! ·  01:44, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
Both can be deleted uncontroversially at RfD, I think, and I would list them there except for the fact that that interview now exists. People will likely be searching for it. Gestrid (talk) 01:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)
From the interview it appears Wind Waker 2 was just an idea of a sequel, a fleeting thought. There is no such game. If there's some more sources and information about it, the redirect can point to Wind Waker legacy section and it can be mentioned there, but honestly it should be deleted. TarkusAB 03:47, 6 December 2016 (UTC)