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The idea lab section of the village pump is a place where new ideas or suggestions on general Wikipedia issues can be incubated, for later submission for consensus discussion at Village pump (proposals). Try to be creative and positive when commenting on ideas.
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Onboarding for new users?

This was promted by a wikimedia-l thread

New users are given zero guidance and then get yelled at when the break the rules they didn't know about. Therefore, I propose that, after sign up, we make a page (perhaps something like H:INTRO?) that we then direct new signups to

Two questions I have:

1. Will new users simply click away without learning anything?
2. How much will this help?

As it stands, the current onboarding procedure is basically nothing: just set them out there and yell at them when they mess up. Something needs to change and I hope my proposal will generate some discussion on how to make the onboarding process better. NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 01:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

The current onboarding procedure is to use Wikipedia:Welcoming committee templates and new users also get a newcomer home (see Wikipedia:Growth Team features). I'm pretty sure automatically sending new users welcome templates is at Wikipedia:Perennial proposals. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:00, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Perennial proposals#Use a bot to welcome new users is probably what you were thinking of. Anomie⚔ 12:40, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Aaron highlighted the Growth team features. To summarize them, new users get Special:Homepage as their base-camp (you might have to activate it in your preferences). There, they have access to selected help links and,

Some wikis also post a message at talk pages. From what I observe*, a successful welcome message requires the following:

• it is a real message, not a block of links
• it is clearly signed by a real human
• it includes a clear indication "contact me if you have any question"
• they are posted before the user make an edit (so that they can ask a question to the user who welcomed them**).

Messages consisting of blocks of links are not successful (a known issue), in particular when the message look like a banner or something else than a discussion. Signatures have to be clear, as the way we format our messages on wikis is not something the rest of the works is used to.

* Of course, what I observe is not a proof of anything, but I observe a lot of newcomers/experienced users at a lot of wikis since a long time. :)

** This is how Mentorship works: you get a name to contact at Special:Homepage (but unfortunately, at your wiki, not everyone gets one as we don't have enough mentors).

The discussion at wikimedia-l was more focused on explaining the rules while editing, which is also something the Wikimedia Foundation works on.

Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 15:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Since so many recent changes have the "newcomer task" tag, I think it's enabled by default for newcomers. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

It is default for all new accounts, correct.

But Mentorship is only available to 50% of new users for the reasons I explained, and a key feature to discover editing, Add a link, is still missing at your wiki.

Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 16:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

or we could just not yell at them... It is my personal opinion that a lot of our users have themselves forgotten they are on wiki that anyone can edit. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:48, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I wish our policies had TL:DR versions of them too because some of them are very lengthy and I have no doubt that that's put some people off from editing here. ♠JCW555 (talk)♠ 22:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Most policies have {{nutshell}}, a summary, on top, and welcome templates already link many summaries, such as Help:Introduction and Help:Getting started. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Although experienced editors do make mistakes from time to time, in my experience, the vast majority of new editors who get "yelled at" are spammers, self promoters, POV pushers, axe grinders, conspiracy theorists and others whose manifest goals are not in alignment with improving this great encyclopedia. As I see things every day on the firing line, any editor who comes here with a genuine intent to neutrally improve this encyclopedia is almost always welcomed with open arms. So, when an editor puts forward vague assertions of "yelled at", I expect diffs and specific cases. Who in particular got "yelled at", and why? Cullen328 (talk) 09:49, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

When I see an edit that degrades the encyclopedia, I revert it, and usually use Twinkle to leave a message on the user's page, with or without an additional comment. I think that kind of response is what some are calling "shouting". I will not leave unreverted an edit that damages the encyclopedia, no matter how well intentioned. I think the lowest levels of the Twinkle warnings are benign enough. I use the stronger versions of Twinkle warnings when a user repeats the same kind of edits after being warned. I block users who repeatedly over a short period of time make obviously problematic edits after being warned. It may be that new users don't see messages on their talk pages, but that is not a reason to allow them to continue to make edits that degrade the encyclopedia. Donald Albury 14:13, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328, how would you describe to an external observer how English Wikipedia welcomes good faith users with open arms? I'm asking it as finding how bad faith users are treated is easy (Donald gave a good example above), but examples of how one deals with good faith users is more difficult to find.

Actually, what I observed over the years is that vandalism or damageable edits get a warning message, while good faith edits are just left as they are, with no message, because they fit what is expected.

Thoughts? Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes they get a thanks and they get a welcome if they're a new user. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:29, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

And {{cookies}}! Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 17:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Yea, that makes sense, especially because then newcomers could fix the typod on articles, like ^{(off-topic warning)} how I fixed an typo on the article for WFSU-TV. The thanks option is actually pretty cool. mer764KCTV5 / Cospaw (He/Him | Talk • Contributions) 16:37, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Trizek (WMF), we have places like the Teahouse and the Help Desk where new editors can get assistance, and they are easy to find given the amount of traffic they get. I have over 10,000 edits to the Teahouse and over 1,200 to the Help Desk, so I have considerable experience helping and encouraging new editors. Many new editors come to my talk page asking for advice. and I have 5,600 edits there. I agree that bad edits and those that make them get more attention in general than good editors making uncontroversial typo fixes, converting bare URLs into bibliographic references, and reverting vandalism. If I notice particularly good work from a new editor, I will definitely thank them. I think that a brief, personalized compliment is better than 100 "welcome templates". The analogy that comes to mind is that few people give detailed thanks to people doing routine work. Few people go into a McDonald's and lavishly compliment the people sweeping the floors, taking the orders and packaging up the french fries. We just treat them politely, with a "thanks" to the order taker being about the extent of it. Cullen328 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Trizek (WMF), I don't know if the WMF collects any statistics, but I wouldn't be surprised if the English Wikipedia gets more than its fair share of bad faith users, making experienced editors more cynical. At least if I were a spammer, self promoter, POV pusher, axe grinder, conspiracy theorist or any other bad faith user I'm sure I would prefer to target the largest Wikipedia that has the largest readership. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@Aaron Liu, is "sometimes" good enough? :)

@Cullen328, thank you for the details. I think volunteer-me have the same profile as yours, but at my wiki. I don't really count places mike the Help desk or the Teahouse as proofs of being welcomed, as these are places you have to discover (or at least find the link to them). Thanks are apparently only for "particularly good" edits as you said. Messages are often perceived as costly to create. What would you (any of you) do to show a user that they edit is going in the right direction, at low cost?

@Phil Bridger, I'd say the bigger the wiki, the more likely it is to attract people. But as I read it quite often, I kind of think there is a perception of a mass of bad faith users that damage things, while only a few users do it right. I'm not sure this is true: maybe there is a perception bias, as badly behaving users are way more visible than users who do things the right way, don't you think?

Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 00:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

I meant that they sometimes get a thanks and nearly always eventually get a welcome. Aaron Liu (talk) 00:31, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

examples of how one deals with good faith users..

• How do we welcome new medical editors?

--Dustfreeworld (talk) 02:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm assuming that, in this context, you're using "getting yelled at" not to mean overt incivility (which is against policy), but rather more subtle snubbing, e.g. ignoring messages or responding curtly. I honestly think that this encyclopedia could improve if this just didn't happen at all, regardless of the person. spintheer (talk) 03:43, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Trizek (WMF), there used to be a bot called HostBot that would send welcoming Teahouse invitations to new accounts in good standing that had made 10 edits within a few days. Sadly, the bot operator, User:Jtmorgan, is far less active in recent years, and the bot no longer operates. Maybe you can look into that.

If you take a look at the Home Page, you will see that the first prominent word is "Welcome". The prominent phrase "anyone can edit" links to Help:Introduction to Wikipedia. There is a prominent link to Help:Contents on the Home Page, which links to many other help pages. Further down are links to the Community Portal, the Village Pump, the Teahouse, the Help Desk, the Reference Desks, and so on. In other words, the page that new editors first see shouts "Welcome! How can we help you?" I know about banner blindness but I doubt if it would make much difference if we displayed "WELCOME" in bold, bright orange all caps, flashing and flickering. It wouldn't help and it would make us look ridiculous.

Most new accounts do not ever edit. Of those that do, most of those make only a handful of edits and then lose interest. Of those that continue editing, a significant percentage have motivations incompatible with the goals of the project as I described above. Of those who really want to improve the encyclopedia, many are here to create or improve one or two articles about topics of great interest to that person, and then they stop editing. Student editors are here to get a good grade, and only a tiny percentage continue after the course is over. People go to edit-a-thons to satisfy their curiosity, meet cool people and get some free food. Only a tiny percentage keep editing.

I have been wondering for nearly 15 years what the positive psychosocial factors are that separate all those types of people who contribute little or no encyclopedic content from the "rare beasts" who make improving this encyclopedia in countless ways an avocation for many years. I cannot answer that question with confidence although I have my pet theories. I hope that the WMF could make that research happen but I do not know.

As an adminstrator, I believe that blocking bad actors like harassers, vandals, spammers and the like is essential, because showing such people the door makes the editing environment more hospitable. And so I am not ashamed to have blocked nearly 10,000 accounts. I think my work in that area makes Wikipedia a more welcoming place. I think I have said enough so I will stop now. Cullen328 (talk) 02:49, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

There's been some research on the psychological profile of Wikipedians. I am not sure you would consider the factors to be "positive", but if memory serves, we are above average for neuroticism and below average for agreeableness. In plain English: we start editing because there's a typo, we would rather be right and have an argument than go along with something that's wrong. We also don't like change. This all aligns with my experience. How about you? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:53, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I like change and demand a link to such a study immediately >:( Aaron Liu (talk) 02:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Cullen328, thank you for your detailed answer. You describe what I would call "passive welcoming": various signs, at various places that convey the idea of welcoming others. At the opposite, "active welcoming" goes more on the way of telling users personally that you can mentor them, thank users for their edits, etc. This is something you do, and I believe it is super important.

It tights to positive reinforcement: someone getting a positive stimulus on their edits are more likely to continue participating. If that positive discourse comes from a human, it has way more chances to be received and appreciated, compared to one coming from an information message on static page.

Following what @WhatamIdoing said or what @Dustfreeworld illustrated above, we, communities, are apparently very good at saying when something gets wrong. Worse, we are very good at qualifying one edit as not good even if just a part of it is not good. Reverting seems to be sometimes easier than fixing up an edit. And I'm not talking of vandals and trolls there: my focus is on users who genuinely came to fix something and saw "be bold" written at various places.

This topic started with the question of onboarding new users, but it is also on how to keep them editing. As we are in the ideas lab, I'm looking for your ideas: what would you (any of you) do to show a user that they edit is going in the right direction, at low cost? What do you miss to encourage users in an easy way?

Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 16:29, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Trizek (WMF), thanks for the ping :-) I’m not sure if I can give much useful comment about your questions, because I’m facing issues very similar to those described in the “How do we ... “ discussion myself as well… ...

My problem is, there’s a user who really doesn’t like me. It seems that my edits are being watched. When they think there’s an “opportunity”, they will suddenly “jump out”, sometimes just within minutes after my edit, nominate the article I edited for AFD, or have half of an article deleted, or criticise me on talk page and have the thread I opened being closed, or, directly yelling at me that “You’re sprouting ... “, etc. All within a short time / same day, like heart attacks. You can’t feel the stress/threats just from viewing the page history unless you’ve experienced them (and that can only be felt from those notifications popping up). And when I tried to restore the removed content, I faced 3RR and 2 warnings, all within minutes; followed immediately by very unpleasant “discussion”/criticism on the project’s talk page.

When I look up the warning templates pages [1][2], I can’t find the warning template that they used. There is no such (level 4) warning template which says “restoring good-faith content is disruptive” (not to mention those are sourced long-standing content not added by me). It seems that they have “tailor-made”/created their own version of warning message for me.

If I were a new user, I would have been threatened and left already. Definitely, with no doubt. I’m quite sure that they have done similar tricks (3RR + level 3/4 warnings) to other good-faith editors as well. (This differs greatly from most other editors do, like providing a detailed edit summary, just remove one or two sentences/sources at a time unless they are doing a rewrite, tagging it first, try fixing the problem first, discuss civilly on talk page first, and only remove outright contentious bad content like those involving BLPs, etc.)

But I can understand why other users may not notice that or can’t see the problem because one can’t feel the tension just from viewing the page history, or, they might not understand how bad I felt when I saw large amount of valuable content that had been there over a decade was deleted mainly because of me. I came here to improve articles and to add content, not making them vanish. That completely goes opposite with the reasons that I’m here. What they did do affect my editing. I’ve left WP for a few days because of that, but it seems no use. Some of the above happened after I came back. I’ve asked for advice on another editor’s talk page, it seems that I was misunderstood. I was mainly asking for suggestions on the likely animus / uncivil behaviour, not on article’s content. I regret having asked that.. yes, my fault.. it was misunderstood.. and it seems that I’ve put someone in a difficult situation, which is not what I intended ... (As a side note, if we’re talking about content, removing a large amount of content at a time of course is not good. No one knows everything about every subject, and everyone makes mistakes. Removal like that will just increase the risk of mistaken removal, even when done in good-faith, without leaving the chance for correction).

I won’t deny that perhaps some of my edits/comments had irritated that user .. but I don’t think what they did is the way to go. Perhaps they just want to prove that “See? The article has problems that you didn’t notice and I’m correcting them now.”? I hope that can come to an end.. but that kind of behaviour has been lasting for quite some time already, and I’m not that optimistic ….. I choose to speak up here, anyway. What also troubled me is their fluctuating attitude/behaviour. Sometimes they seem to be very civil (mostly to others, but once or twice to me also). But when they are unhappy / don’t like you, it’s just totally different. I’ve been told to “find way” to like them, but it’s just too difficult.. I have tried not to escalate during the discussions (if you are familiar with my edits you’ll know how assertive I can be) but I wonder if that helped. I hope I’ve made it clearer now on why I said “I’ve tried my best already”. It’s not about “discovering the value of others”. Nothing like that. You can’t really like someone if they treat you (and others?) like that, no matter whatever value they have ...

Back to the “How do we welcome new medical editors?” thread at WP:MED talk page.. well, I think that user (one different from the above) has taken some of the advice in that discussion and probably has become more civil (as seen from their comments at least) now. And they have never been uncivil to me, which I really appreciate; despite the fact that I’ve pointed out several times what they shouldn’t have done. I believe that’s an editor with good intention. For that I’ve even given them a barnstar. So, perhaps I should go on and start a new discussion called “How do we work with our newly-joined colleagues?” Do we work with them by ... 3RR … warnings ... following … ?” I don’t think I have the energy (or should spend the time) for that though .. after all, it’s just Wikipedia ..

(N.B. I’m talking to myself and reply is welcome but not absolutely needed.. I’m not providing any diff, because I really don’t want to piss people off… if you know you know, anyway ..) --Dustfreeworld (talk) 18:35, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

WP:Wikihounding is against policy. You might want to consult someone to see if it fits. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:47, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing this, @Dustfreeworld. I'm really sorry for your bad experience. First and foremost, as Aaron Lui said, you need to report the behavior you describe.

On your message, I agree regarding the attitude. Welcoming users and providing suggestions to their edits is a positive and active way to have more editors joining. Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 17:47, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

@Trizek (WMF) The biggest blocker with any active welcoming and mentorship plan is that... They all fail thanks to no longevity plans and too much effort required.

I have never seen WP:Welcome Committee in action (but it's hard to, because the idea is decentralised anyway), WP:Teahouse has longevity (because it's low frills for everyone), but Wikipedia:Adopt-a-user pretty much has dried up (It's a lot of effort per mentor), WP:Co-op never really got off the ground (too much effort for everyone), WP:Snuggle is disbanded now (don't think many users used it but I might be wrong), WP:TWA is... I am not even sure if it's alive or not, it's not very easy to see the impact of it there, Growth Team's Mentorship space is currently indecipherable for any veteran editor (I don't even have an enwiki page to link for it), Hostbot is unfortunately inactive (not sure why), WP:Twinkle welcoming templates are still active.

Of all of these, I'd recommend reviving Hostbot and encouraging more Twinkle Templates for your active welcoming purposes. One is a bot, the other is a simple 2-clicks per user who's already installed Twinkle. Essentially the simpler and lower effort your solution is for everyone, the more impact it'll have overall (because it's much more likely to be used 3 years later instead of 3 months).

I could go in more depth, but essentially I'd like to see WMF dedicate more resources to simple easy to maintain ideas that solve one problem each, instead of overarching mega-goals that fail soon after the "patronship" dries out. Soni (talk) 06:42, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

There was research that showed people liked TWA but it did not improve editor retention. Not sure what your suggestion about Twinkle is; isn't Twinkle-welcome already working? Aaron Liu (talk) 14:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I was pointing out Twinkle-welcome as one of the few "active welcoming" things that do already work; so if I were WMF, I'd focus some resources towards "Can we encourage this more". Right now it's mostly used by veterans who already know what Twinkle is/how to use Twinkle/are used to welcoming via Twinkle often enough. I don't have any specific plans already, but I assume anything that boosts any of those three will increase active welcoming. My point of highlighting Twinkle was "Improve something that works" vs "Make a new project that first crosses the longevity barrier".

I do think there's better avenues to explore, roughly in 'more automated and less heavy on maintenance' things. I'd like Hostbot revived, if only because it'll give us a lot of data on impactful retention. Soni (talk) 18:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Some kind of encouragement to use Twinkle Welcome messages more might indeed help. After using Twinkle for many years, I only recently realized that I should be using the welcome messages more often when dealing with problem edits from (apparently) new editors. I think part of my problem was that I did not realize that besides the purely welcoming messages I often saw on user talk pages, there are also welcome messages that deal with a subset of problem edits that I can use instead of a pure warning message in many cases. Donald Albury 13:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Most initiatives to help newcomers in a direct way (not through passive messaging) are time consuming, that's true. In my opinion (which is just an opinion), it is also the price of quality welcoming, to create a new generation of wikipedians. At the moment, the lack of time creates a gap on who will join: only users with "survival" skills will succeed, while less assured people will give up.

What I call "Passive messaging" are user talk page messages, often pre-formatted for a given purpose, often with wiki-jargon, looking like being distributed by a machine and very often with no way to contact the sender. Donald just gave good context about them.

Also, I don't know if Twinkle offer ressources to encourage users of they've done good (or partially good) edits.

@Soni, if I set aside using Twinkle, what are the solutions to welcome and sustain a new generation of editors? Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 16:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

user talk page messages, often pre-formatted for a given purpose, often with wiki-jargon, looking like being distributed by a machine and very often with no way to contact the sender. I actually disagree. I get the main point you're making, but in practice, I find Template:Welcome cookie to be strictly better than literally everything (including Special:Homepage). There are a lot of worse templates, agreed, but tweaking to adjust the templates to better serve your purpose (A simple message saying "You can contact me at [my talk page]")

Also, I don't know if Twinkle offer ressources to encourage users of they've done good (or partially good) edits. That's why I mentioned Snuggle from earlier. If you specifically want "Let us encourage editors who made good editors recently" you may be better off partially or completely reusing codebase that should already exist from before. The project had an interface like WP:Huggle and pointed out newer editors with "good" edits that I could then send welcome messages to. It just was a separate interface that editors had to get used to using, so ended up not actually being used much (IIRC).

if I set aside using Twinkle, what are the solutions to welcome and sustain a new generation of editors? Like I tried to mention earlier, I think this problem is best solved by breaking down each subproblem separately. I think reviving Hostbot could be good for "Identify lots of promising editors, send them to pipeline of "editors training others". I think Growth homepage is good for "Every new editor sees this" but it needs severe updates to allow experienced editors to interact or help (Teahouse and a bunch of onwiki resources are still not added, there's no enWiki landing page or talk page, there's no WP project page with simple "Here's example screenshots of how the growth page looks", all of those will allow veterans to point out specific things that can be improved). I think there is room for space to grow "Mentor and retain editors who are promising (100+ good edits)", probably an evolution of WP:Adopt in some way. (I don't offhand know what that could be, other than "You could probably ask WP:WER and WP:EotW folks". Those have done excellent work in retaining promising veterans from burnout, simply by encouragement. So I can totally see something similar working for newcomers).

In essence, I'm recommending "Iterate and improve on every subproblem" as a way. "Will veterans use and maintain this space 2 years later" can be very hit-or-miss, but my best guess for increasing those odds involve asking a few Wikiprojects, then improving the projects they are most excited by/most likely to use. Soni (talk) 17:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Interesting thoughts, thank you. They will feed into my work on mentoring and how to help communities in this area.

Regarding pre-formatted messages, my definition may not apply to some messages, but the majority of them are actually not that good across wikis. Even the Welcome cookie one could be improved for the benefit of new users. It is a problem in itself. :)

Anyway, to be continued, probably somewhere else. Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 19:01, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

My favorite welcome template is {{w-graphical}}, which neatly categorizes the links. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:06, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh I completely agree that things could always be improved, I just think the improved templates are really "solid" and cover a lot of useful ground consistently (even if a bit impersonal). I also like automation because I treat this process as a scaling problem.

We probably have thousands of new editors monthly who make a useful edit, a few hundred who stick around for 10 edits, and probably dozens who I'd call "promising" (>20% odds of editing 1 year later, say). Each group requires a different approach to maximise our "odds", simply because otherwise you'd spend a lot of time personalising messages that might never be ever seen.

The more we can accurately go "Okay we have 20 new editors with 50 unreverted edits made over the last month", the more we can focus vet effort on personally interacting/encouraging/mentoring those. And the "They made 2 edits that weren't flagged as vandalism" folks can be handled by automated/semi-automated systems to get them to "Okay this is what talk pages are, also ask questions on this link" levels Soni (talk) 19:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Trizek (WMF) Also if you'll solicit future community input, I recommend WP:Helpdesk, Wikipedia:IRC/wikipedia-en-help regulars as well. Both locations deal with large volumes of newcomers constantly, so the vets there would know exactly the things that would smoothen their mentoring curve. Soni (talk) 19:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

You know that we don't have a common definition of a "useful edit"? The one used is based on reverts: a non-reverted edit after 3 days. We have data about this.

Regarding automated system providing guidance, they could work, but human-to-human interactions are way better to improve retention. We are working on the Wikimedia Foundation's annual plan, and it has a question regarding how we can distinguish ourselves from other platforms. I think the human factor is important there. It doesn't mean that we should not use any form of semi/automated ways of helping users (like we plan to do with Edit check), but we can make a difference on how we encourage new users with a more human -centered approach. Again, it is still a question with no proper answer. Yet!

Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 14:15, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh I completely understand, I'm just making sure to emphasise making it sustainable for human volunteers. The last time I checked the Growth dashboard (6 months ago?) my realisation was that most of the human effort on veterans' end was fairly wasted. You do not want to burn out all your experienced editors trying to reply to everything when it's way more important for the "promising newcomers" (People who have already shown they understand Wikipedia basics AND are sticking around for more than 1-2 days) to get that interaction. I do not believe the latter is happening at all (or enough) right now, so I feel former (Spreading out volunteer attention to everyone) is not helpful enough.

You know that we don't have a common definition of a "useful edit"? I don't know if this is the biggest problem to solve, but I'm fairly confident I've seen something like this before. Snuggle, Huggle, mw:ORES all have some way of judging the quality of edits. I know I've seen this in my Watchlist as well. This is a perfect usecase for this or similar tooling: Decent accuracy but sorts through everything. Soni (talk) 14:33, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I've often written about the inefficiencies of Wikipedia's discussion processes, and combined with the realities of most volunteer recruiting, where the vast majority of people stopping by aren't going to commit to staying around, agree that recruiting is costly. (There's a commonly used solution for that, but it's not one that I feel the English Wikipedia community is ready to accept: have paid staff do the welcoming and hand-holding.) That being said, I think that's just something that has to be paid to feed the pipeline for maintaining English Wikipedia at its current scale. While I also agree that having tools to help identify promising newcomers would be helpful to target them for retention, I additionally feel we need to work on ways to get more editors to the point where their promise can be evaluated. As others and I have previously suggested, perhaps there should be recruiting initiatives targeting groups whose interests align well with the idea of volunteering to write encyclopedia articles. This can be on a one-on-one personal level (current editors reaching out to people they know who would be interested) and on a higher level, such as trying to get history buffs involved. isaacl (talk) 15:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

@Soni, well the sustainability of any program that involve humans to help new users feeling welcomed and capable of editing is precisely the challenge.

My realisation was that most of the human effort on veterans' end was fairly wasted -- could you elaborate on this?

Regarding the quality of edits, there are two different cases: ORES can give a prediction of the intent or the level of damage. It is a possibility to guess if the edit is useful, but it is not qualifying as such for sure. Some obvious cases are immediately identified, but the grey area between vandalism and constructive edits is left to humans' appreciation. If we had a proper definition of a useful edit, the prediction models (ORES or its replacement) would work differently.

Regarding assigning a mentor to active users who already shown apetite for Wikipedia by a few edits could be a mistake. Being a mentor myself at my wiki, I often get questions from users who aren't sure if they can change something on a page. Their very first edit is a question to me. If i put aside SPAs, the majority of them are now active users (even if not regularly).

@Isaacl, if you have any link to your writings at hand, I'm curious to read about welcoming new users.

The Growth team worked on a tool to identify promising users, so that their mentor can encourage them. We tested it at a few wikis, but it is not ready at all for a larger release. We also have plans to assign mentors to newcomers who match their interests, but it is not on Growth's scope for now. Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 14:13, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to try to match mentors to new editors based on common interests, as well as directing new editors towards active groups of editors with matching interests. Unfortunately, many WikiProjects no longer have high levels of engagement on their talk pages, which makes it harder.

I don't think I've written much about welcoming new users. I once wrote down some quick thoughts on active mentorship for new editors. At the editor retention WikiProject talk page, I have discussed selective recruitment and challenges in understanding how to make English Wikipedia more attractive for new generations to edit. (I do not remember where I discussed recruiting from historians/history buffs.) On the general theme of trying to attract people to help out, I've floated an idea for volunteer weeks, where editors host "open house" activities to recruit potential volunteers for specific initiatives. (If you're asking about something else, you might find something relevant on my "Community" user sub-page.) isaacl (talk) 18:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

could you elaborate on this? We've actually discussed exactly this last year. I noticed that the Growth dashboard was casting too wide a net, so I got 10 mentees who had never made an edit (and never would again). I don't believes any changes were made from there. And the dashboard continues to not be clear on what "level of editors" you'll get questions from. Veterans are a 'non-renewable resource' so I always prefer them fully knowing what they're signing up for and/or being tapped after there's already a "filter" applied on their potential mentees.

Their very first edit is a question to me I guess we disagree. I would like those editors to also get some assistance, but I personally believe it's way more important to first build a sustainable structure at the "higher levels of the pyramid". That is currently missing, so in my opinion, you are giving good human support to a few thousand editors who edit once, but have nothing for few dozens/hundreds who are already super likely to stick around.

I would rather Growth team's efforts be on building the "newbie to experienced editor" mentorship pipeline for all levels of newcomers, than focus all new initiatives trying to redo fancy new ideas but only for the newest editors. The reason I suggested ORES is because it probably isn't perfect but it's definitely "good" as a starting point. The scale at which enWiki operates, I'll rather have an existing tool that's 70% accurate in iding newcomers, than a tool that comes a few months later. I'd rather WMF spent more resources improving current tooling and reviving good projects with promise, than continue churning out newer plans every few months. Soni (talk) 18:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

ITN reform

I am opening this discussion to invite suggestions and proposals to reform WP:ITN in anticipation of an RfC. Such reforms are long overdue: ITN has effectively shut itself off from the rest of the site as a walled garden and have developed their own system of rules that conflict with sitewide expectations, creating multiple problems:

• The inclusion criteria are entirely subjective and based on the personal whims and opinions of participants. Editors at ITN routinely use original research to determine "significance", applying their own analysis of each situation. Weight in reliable sources is not a major factor in whether ITN considers something to be "significant".
• ITN flouts community norms around consensus. Discussions are typically closed as head counts, without weighing arguments in regard to the application of policy. "I like it" votes are given equal weight in discussions. The discussions are also closed before consensus has time to develop: no other part of the project would dream of letting a discussion without a clear consensus be closed in under a week, but ITN's nature requires that they be closed in a few days at most. Many discussions are closed after just a few !votes one way or the other.
• ITN requires a fast turnaround, sometimes as short as a few hours. In addition to contradicting WP:DEADLINE, this creates rushed work and prevents in depth review. Nominal quality checks are done to make sure citations are present, but the window is short and most participants only evaluate "significance". This results in articles that are not only not ready for the main page, but ones that are unstable as they are oftentimes recently created, subject to early reporting errors, and undergoing significant changes.
• Since arguments about personal beliefs and opinions are built into ITN's processes, it is inherently less civil than other parts of the project. Over the years, drama at ITN has rivaled most CTOPs, to the point that applying general sanctions to ITN itself has been discussed in the past.
• The arbitrary selection of news stories (with a major systemic bias toward elections, sports, and mass-casualty events) misrepresents the overall state of what's actually in the news. Pushing this bias onto our readers does them a disservice.

These problems are intractable with ITN in its current form. I am asking for suggestions on how it can be reformed, or if that fails and there is consensus to abolish it entirely, how it can be replaced.

Examples of reforms:

• Remove the significance requirement entirely and include any article that is the subject of a recent news event.
• Require that a story receive significant coverage in a certain number of countries or a certain number of newspapers of record
• Promote articles based on trending topics (with oversight to prevent gaming the system)

Examples of replacements:

• Use the space to display several short blurbs for good articles each day, like smaller versions of WP:Today's Featured Article
• Use the space to provide links on how to edit and to help users find where to start in order to recruit more editors
• Move the "Other areas of Wikipedia" section of the main page into the space for easier navigation

These are ideas that have been suggested in the past. This is not an exhaustive list of examples, nor do I personally consider all of them viable. I'm requesting input from the Village Pump so we can develop additional suggestions and get a general idea of what the community thinks about them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Two issues with points raised:

• On the fourth point related to arguments: the only time general sanctions have been applied is when the topic itself falls into areas where general sanctions have already been applied (like AP2, etc.) There have not been any sanctions applies for topics outside these areas. So that's just how general sanctions should be applied, and not an ITN issue.
• On the fifth point, WP is not a newspaper and we absolutely should not share topics to match what is big in the news. Not every news story that gets a short term burst of coverage deserves a WP article (per NOTNEWS, WP:N and NEVENT) and ITN reflects that.

Remember that the main page as a whole is meant to showcase articles that represent some of the best of WP. Replacing it with a list of top stories in newspapers or with popular topics won't work at all, because not all those topics meet the main page requirement. — Masem (t) 19:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

I would also offer a suggestion that the ITN box include a permalink to the Wikinews sister project, which may be more attractive to those potential editors who get confused or put off in their first reverts that we are WP:NOTNEWS. SamuelRiv (talk) 15:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if there's even a consensus that ITN needs to be changed, before we even start talking about the specifics of how to reform it. But I do not see any indication on the above thread that such a consensus exists. If there is, please feel free to share the diff, otherwise I feel like this will just go around in circles again as such discussions always do. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that (much like changing the MP) consensus could be obtained for the general idea of changing ITN but it would break down when specific proposals are offered. I now believe that it should function more like RD with a reduced or nonexistent "super notability" significance requirement- but I don't think that would gain a consensus.(I've discusses it here previously) 331dot (talk) 15:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Just a thought on "article quality" as a criteria: maybe it shouldn't be one. Perhaps a purpose of ITN should be to direct readers to articles that are currently hot topics in the hope that the extra attention results in improvements. There's no better opportunity to improve an article than when lots of people are interested in it. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 14:18, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Content on the Main Page is supposed to demonstrate high quality articles and some of WP's best work. We can't remove the quality aspect with changing that aspect of Main Page. — Masem (t) 18:59, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

I get that ITN has its problems, but I don't get why it gets singled out so much when the other sections of the main page all have their quirky ways of working. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 17:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

ITN has actually been working quite fine recently, in my opinion. I am not sure this is needed anymore. Curbon7 (talk) 18:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

In-page attribution of authors/contributors

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T120738

Something I've been thinking about for a while is how Wikipedia could provide better attribution for the contributors of its articles. After all, attribution is a key part of our license, but the authorship of an article is very much hidden away out of sight. In order to see the authorship of an article, one first needs to go to the "View history" tab, then click on the "Page statistics" external link, which redirects to an entirely different website, and even then you need to scroll down in the page before seeing authorship details. It also appears to only be visible in the web browser version, while it seems completely absent from the mobile app version. This presents a pretty unintuitive set of hoops for readers to jump through in order to discover (and attribute) the authorship of various articles. Even as a regular contributor, I didn't know this tool existed until a year or so ago.

This means that, to the lay reader or content re-user, all of our articles might as well be written by a monolithic "Wikipedia", or maybe a vague gesture at "Wikipedia contributors". Contrast this with other prominent encyclopedias like Britannica, which display the primary contributors to an article quite prominently beneath the article title and list secondary contributors in an easy-to-find section in the article history.

I was thinking that, either in the main page or at the top of the "View history" tab, it may be worth including such a list of contributors. It could be as simple as listing the primary author (with the most percentage/characters contributed), followed by any secondary contributors (with >10% contributed), followed by an "et al", which could itself link to further information about the article's authorship.

I think this would be a very important fulfilment of our own license's terms of attribution, both for in-wiki use and for anybody that might be reading or thinking about reusing the article's content. It would be a step away from the monolithic conception of "Wikipedia contributors". It could also provide a greater sense of impact for the articles' authors themselves, who would be able to easily see the fruits of their labour on screen. Of course, I understand this may come with its own drawbacks. I know some editors prefer the anonymity, while others may be worried that this could encourage low-effort edits in order to farm credit. But I personally think that the potential benefits of such a credit feature would outweigh the potential costs.

Having looked through the village pump archives, I'm confident this isn't a perennial proposal. I only managed to find one discussion of such a feature, which was opened by @Doc James almost a decade ago, but it didn't seem to gather a clear consensus and I'm not sure if anything ended up resulting from it. If anyone has any comments on this embryonic proposal, I would be happy to hear from you. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@Grnrchst as an example, could you produce what you would expect the output of such to look like for this page? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:32, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

It's an odd example, because this is a discussion page, but it would currently be something like "Written by WhatamIdoing, Xaosflux, et al." --Grnrchst (talk) 14:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

So you'd be fine ignoring the thousands of other authors on such a byline? — xaosflux ^Talk 14:58, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's feasible nor particularly useful to include every single contributor in a byline, but I don't think they should be entirely ignored either, that's why I've included the "et al." (could also say "and others", or something). The reason I set the byline inclusion at >10% is because that's the rule of thumb used by the good articles project to determine major contributions. I think named inclusion in the byline should be limited to such major contributors, but linking to total authorship in the "et al." would also be useful for showing the full scope of contributions. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:05, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is going to be any good way to programmatically determine those values. In your example above, what calculation did you use to determine that WhatamIdoing and I were >10% contributors for example? This is primarily why the cite this page tool example just says "Wikipedia contributors". (see more below) — xaosflux ^Talk 15:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I was using the "Top editors" section in the Xtools page I linked to in the "et al." As this is a discussion page, rather than a mainspace page, Xtools doesn't show an "Authorship" section in this case (hence why I didn't think it was a good example). Whereas in the one for Morgan Bulkely, there is an authorship section that shows Wehwalt at 79% of authorship, Real4jyy at 6.2% of authorship, etc. The authorship tool on Xtools is apparently powered by WikiWho, which we may be able to use for generating such a byline. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:25, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

As for the "Cite this page" tool, I think this is an example of how just vaguely citing "Wikipedia contributors" is unhelpful and even redundant. Of course it's authored by Wikipedia contributors, it's a Wikipedia article! --Grnrchst (talk) 15:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Another example, using today's featured article Morgan Bulkeley, would read: "Written by Wehwalt, et al." Grnrchst (talk) 14:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking this "Written by [...]" could go next to the bit where it says "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". --Grnrchst (talk) 14:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

In the mobile view, we do advertise the "last" author (e.g. see the bottom of this page) - that could possible be ported to desktop. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the "latest contribution" is a good measure of recent activity, what I'm aiming at with this proposal is trying to demonstrate a broader scope of total activity. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:07, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• Note, a feature request that may address this idea is open at phab:T120738. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
• Note that we currently have https://xtools.wmcloud.org/articleinfo/en.wikipedia.org/C418_discography and Who Wrote That which calculate the percentage, the latter using an API that does it Aaron Liu (talk) 15:20, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think you'd want to use the WhoColor API (which is what mw:Who Wrote That? uses). The other methods tend to overemphasize people who don't actually write any words. For example, if the article has 50 edits total at the time of calculation, and five of them are me blanking the whole article, or changing the whitespace on a template, then I've made 10% of the edits, but I haven't written a single word on the page.

  @Grnrchst, the last time I remember seeing a discussion about highlighting the names of contributors, a jerk who normally edited under his real name created an account with a vulgar username and made one edit, just for the purpose of asking whether we really wanted to have vulgarities displayed in the mainspace. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  And his alt was banned for WP:DISRUPTNAME, right? Aaron Liu (talk) 20:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but DISRUPTNAME was declared to be an insufficient reason to revdel or oversight/suppress the change. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:27, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  I was having the same thoughts. It should be based on who contributed to what the article as currently displayed. It would be wrong for instance to list the top contributor as someone who hasn't edited the article since it was completely rewritten.
  It might also encourage more competitive editors to try and find ways to boost there standings, without having to do any actually helpful work. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

  For the reasons mentioned above, I'm not a big fan of crediting whoever ran the link archiver most often as being the "author" of the page. Nor am I fan of being assigned as the author of a page, even if I am indeed the #1 author. The mw:Who Wrote That? extension is excellent and should be promoted, because it allows seeing authorship of words and sentences currently live, which is an excellent (though not infallible) way of tracking down who has added nonsense to an otherwise decent page (caveat lector: sometimes someone who copyedits nonsense will be shown rather than the original nonsense-adder). One thing that may not be widely known is that you can run Who Wrote That? on old versions of pages, making it an arguably more efficient tool than WikiBlame.-- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 18:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  Although XTools is influenced by use of link archiver tools, the underlying WikiWho service provides token-by-token attribution of who added what. This can be used to determine authorship without considering anything between ref tags, as well as other markup that's seen to unfairly influence authorship stats. I have implemented this in SDZeroBot 6 task which makes the bot somewhat smarter about whom to notify about AfDs. – SD0001 (talk) 21:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

• I am concerned that this would encourage WP:OWNERSHIP of articles. The entire point of the Wikipedia model is that articles are “authored” by the community, not by individuals. Blueboar (talk) 20:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  This is a completely fair and valid concern. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:54, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the need for this. I do get a certain pleasure from seeing how much of the content in an article I have contributed (which I can see at Page Statistics), but I am well aware that no one else really cares, and the future of such content is out of my hands. I am not editing Wikipedia to build my curriculim vitae. Donald Albury 21:41, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

• As someone soliciting donations for your Wikipedia work, is this something you are considering using to attract donors? isaacl (talk) 21:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

  No. --Grnrchst (talk) 21:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Personally I strongly dislike the idea of articles where I have primary authorship saying "written by Levivich, et al." or anything like that. That is very much not the kind of attention I want. Also, xtools authorship is not really reliable. For example, I am listed as the #2 author of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez [3] but that's only because I once ran the archive bot on that page [4], I am not actually anywhere near a top author of the actual prose on that article. Levivich (talk) 17:15, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

If you have a divisive article and then add a note that User X was its most prolific contributor, readers will immediately assume User X holds those divisive views. And all the better if User X is an IP and offended readers can immediately find their location. (Which is already possible, of course, but why place it front and center?)

Speaking of which, how would this even work with dynamic IP addresses? 2603:8001:4542:28FB:25EE:12B6:DCFA:E43E (talk) 18:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC) (Send talk messages here)

I agree with the concerns voiced by Levivich and others. And even if the authorship statistics were 100% accurate I still don't like the idea of omitting certain users; as sappy as it sounds I think every contribution matters. Potentially, we could do something like Based on the contributions of 328 users but even then I think a more appropriate place for this kind of thing would be the footer alongside the last edited date. ― novov (t c) 08:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

• I can totally see the issues with this: we'll never have a 100% reliable measure of authorship, you can't include everyone, and we'll probably see a slight uptick in WP:OWNERSHIP and authorship gaming. But overall, I think it would be a nice way to acknowledge our volunteer editors and to communicate to readers "look, this was written by real people – you can join us". And twenty years into the project, with declining editor numbers, increasing restrictions and expectations of those editors that persevere, and donations to "Wikipedia" siphoned off by an organisation that has increasingly little to do with it, I think we really do need to start prioritising looking after our volunteer base over other concerns. Relying on the ideal of the selfless, perfectly-self motivated contributor, happy to work in complete anonymity, was fine in the early days of the project when the internet was the playground of affluent nerds with utopian ideals; those days are long gone. – Joe (talk) 08:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I can see how algorithmically a shortened authorship list would be generated automatically, fine-tuned for a relatively accurate representation. And while anything like that could be gamed by users, that's why we have lots of human eyes to review abuse. I can also see how such a list would be useful to researchers and those making citations. However, were such an authorship list to be implemented, I'd suggest it be hidden out of the way a bit, at least certainly from the front page of the article, and perhaps even completely hidden from UI except as metadata.

I'll give some contrasting examples: Scholarpedia places its curator-authors (respected subject-matter experts) prominently at the top of its articles: non-random example is BCM Theory (SP). By contrast, Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy has its authors' names and affiliation mentioned simply at the bottom, under "Author information" following the bibliography; while Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has its author even more nondescript, being in a footer at the bottom under a copyright notice, and not implied to be an actual "author" until you click on the "Author and citation info" link on the sidebar. (Again, respected subject-matter experts; random ex.: Gender in Chinese Philosophy (IEP), Plato on utopia (SEP).) Wolfram MathWorld also has authorship given relatively subtly at the bottom of the page -- if it's contributed by someone other than the editor, the contribution note precedes the bibliography; otherwise authorship is indicated only in citation information (ex. Chen-Gackstatter Surfaces (MW)).

Given all this, I don't know what example editors here would want to find themselves compared to, especially since an algorithm listing authors would not distinguish one editor writing 95% of an article immediately preceding GA, from one editor writing 55% of the prose in a B-class, for which others had to find new citations (unless we'd want it to do so, but this would epitomize wp:ownership). SamuelRiv (talk) 15:37, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

It’s really hard to measure the significance of contributions to an article. It’s not just a count of who added the most words, or even of who added the most words that survive into the current version. How should we weigh a user who adds some high word count nonsense to an article, against a user who painstakingly sifts through the garbage, deletes most of it, and copyedits down any remaining kernel of valid content? Or the user who contributes great source analysis to a talk page discussion on a matter which results in a single word changing? Perhaps the article on Antoine de Saint-Exupéry is finished not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 18:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This is an excellent point. We don't have any accurate automated way to assess contribution levels, and xtools authorship isn't it (neither is bytes added or edit count). Levivich (talk) 18:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Just because an algorithm isn't currently implemented, does not mean an algorithm doesn't exist. As a rough starting point: authorship+curation can be measured by taking the diffs made by an editor to bring text in line with the current stable state, weighted by time. (For the simplest measure, you can just use edit longevity with hysteresis.) Now, absent some new API properties, this is an expensive calculation to maintain for every article, but it's perfectly technically doable. (Another, more sophisticated method is analogous to a co-authorship network.) Of course this has been done before: Arazy et al 2010; Lanio & Tasso 2011 (citing Biuk-Aghai 2006). SamuelRiv (talk) 19:28, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

No algorithm will be perfect though, and the exact value of things other than clear-cut addition/removal is to some extent subjective. ― novov (t c) 01:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

• Fundamentally, I think this is a nice idea and seems like it would be easy to implement since we already track editor contribution metrics, so it would just be a matter of making this visible on the page itself somewhere, maybe in the footer (though, yes, XTools is imperfect and an alternate system would probably be better). That said, I would hope there might be some opt-out system for those of us who don't want any sort of public credit, which includes me. (I never let anyone IRL know what WP articles I've worked on because the layperson assumes that the current status of any given WP article I "created" represents my writing. And, in many cases, I want nothing to do with how an article I "created" has evolved.) Chetsford (talk) 02:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
• Much as with the hall of fame suggestion (people really seem to be concerned with credit and recognition, lately), this could go so very badly. Any algorithm that we set up is going to be full of holes. It is simply impossible to represent, with any sort of non-LLM algorithm, the extent to which an edit impacts an article's development and structure for a multitude of reasons. The first reason is the fact that anyone can edit Wikipedia, and edits are happening on a constant, minute-by-minute, second-by-second basis. An article could look one way today and then look totally different the following day, if it gets a massive rewrite. How would one recognize contributions in that scenario? If Editor X wrote the previous version of the article before its replacement, do they lose attribution now that it's been rewritten? Or do they receive attribution for something that no longer resembles their work?

The second reason, for Wikipedia articles, especially larger ones, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. One can do a massive amount of copy-editing in a large edit, mainly to make stylistic or grammatical corrections, and as a result it would have very little impact on the article's growth but they would be considered an outsized contributor. On the other hand, the addition of a few vital facts or details could contribute heavily to the article's development, ensuring that it's meeting WP:GNG or perhaps even putting it on the road to becoming a WP:GA.

The third reason is that someone will always disagree with the algorithm that determines who is an author. Attitudes on Wikipedia among editors regarding WP:OWNERSHIP are already very fierce. This would exacerbate it to a fever pitch. Or it would simply not be taken seriously, if enough people take umbrage with it. This metric would be divisive at worst, and superfluous at best. If one wanted to track the metrics of the article, the "Statistics" are available for this very reason. They do not attempt to ask the question "who wrote this article?" They simply provide the data. In fact, it's a good rule of thumb - Anytime you ask any sort of question regarding creative or scholarly human impact, the question should always be answered by a human and not by a machine. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 13:20, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia Hall of Fame?

What are your thoughts? Is it going to work? Comment down below. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 17:28, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Hall of fame topic; section break 1

• I'll bite. What do I get? Like, a room with a comfy chair? The one caution I would have about this is that there are some editors whose positive contributions to the encyclopedia would unquestionably earn them a spot, but who are presently indef-banned for other reasons. BD2412 T 17:37, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  "The one caution I would have about this is that there are some editors whose positive contributions to the encyclopedia would unquestionably earn them a spot, but who are presently indef-banned for other reasons." That's a good point. Though, IMO, I don't think HOF should be behavior-exclusionary and should be open to anyone who has made an enduring impact on WP, regardless of how they made the impact. For instance, I say induct Jordan French (maybe not in the inaugural cohort, but eventually). Chetsford (talk) 18:47, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with Chetsford on this. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 04:11, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  French certainly made an impact but then so did many LTA vandals. If this idea is adopted, it seems appropriate to limit membership to those who have shown altruism rather than encouraging those who make Wikipedia worse for personal gain. Certes (talk) 08:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  Never say never. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 13:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yeah, that's a good point, Certes. I think this was intended more as an exaggeration for emphasis that we not be rules-bound for a HOF, but probably not a good example to underscore that! Anyway, I agree with your suggestion. Chetsford (talk) 15:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

• We already have a lot of perks for experienced editors (Special holidays, Wikimedian of the Year, Editor of the Week, Service awards, ...), and I honestly don't think we need yet another way to separate "elite" Wikipedians from the rest of us. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:02, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• Similar to Internet Hall of Fame, to be serious, there would need to be a reliable advisory board. They can help surface little known but important people from the early founder days. It could be a popular vote nomination process, like the Nobel, but picking the winners would need a small august body, known for deep institutional knowledge and experience. After a few rounds/years of winners, those winners then become members of the advisory board. Overall this is probably something that should be organized by WMF. Or you can just do it, but it will be another "This one is special. This one is also special" award. -- GreenC 18:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

  @GreenC, i like the discussion here of this idea, but how about an opposite approach? such as, anyone who wants to be in the hall of fame, can be?? and maybe split it up by topic, so that it would have some actual useful format to make it readable to others? Sm8900 (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

• I like it. While we may have a superfluidity of awards, these cost essentially nothing to produce so I'm not sure I ever understand the resistance. All recognition systems are voluntary and those who don't approve can opt-out. Moreover, a HoF -- if managed through some approximation of the way GreenC describes -- would be different from existing accolades which are either interpersonal recognition (editor to editor) or metric-based recognition (e.g. Four Award, etc.). Chetsford (talk) 18:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Hall of fame topic; section break 2

• Of course they "cost nothing to produce", that's not the problem, the problem is that they give one more excuse to divide Wikipedians between "the ones who have power" (i.e. the unblockables) and the plebs like us. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 13:36, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• It might be a good idea. 3.14 (talk) 19:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
• The key questions for any initiative is what is the objective, and how helpful is the initiative in achieving this objective? For recognition programs, it's important to also consider how the selection process will work, and whether or not it will create more difficulties than benefits gained. Recognition programs are tricky because the flip side of selecting some is that many others are not selected, and that can result in conflict. isaacl (talk) 02:36, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  That's how recognition programs work, but I don't think they'll necessarily cause any conflict. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 04:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  "it's important to also consider how the selection process will work" After the inaugural cohort is selected, maybe it should become self-perpetuating with all prior inductees selecting each subsequent cohort. (Though you'd still need some system to choose the inaugural cohort.) This would mitigate politicization and degradation as inducted members would have a vested interest in maintaining its reputational coherence. Chetsford (talk) 05:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

  That would be difficult if they are dead or so long retired from WP they don't give a toss about the place anymore/are out of touch about who is still active and "deserves" a shout. - SchroCat (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  "would be difficult if they are dead" I imagine it would. Chetsford (talk) 08:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  I would object to exclusion of the deceased. There are some amazing editors who left us too soon, but with great work done first. BD2412 T 02:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  We don't mean a blanket exclusion, just that we will ensure that batches of cohorts keep on coming; this line of discussion was about a proposal to have each cohort select the next. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think we'll select a cohort that are all dead or inactive, for the reasons you've mentioned. Aaron Liu (talk) 11:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think it best if you don't have any intake at all: voting for one's friends make this an inbred and insular process. As I've said before (as has Chaotic Enby), this is a bad idea - divisive and with the potential for conflict when the "wrong" people are elected and the "right" people over looked. - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

• The English Wikipedia Hall of Fame idea sounds peachy keen, as Babe Ruth would say before tying his hands behind his back and hitting a home run with his neck (Ruth is, all kidding aside, the most underrated ballplayer in baseball history). The initial "class" obviously would include J and L, the pioneering heroes of our story, and I can think of several others who would be obvious. That first class probably shouldn't be large, maybe 7 or 8 inductees. Then the rules get tricky, but doable. In a perfect world we'd lock J and L in a room until they get to a place where they can come up with a plan of how to handle this that everyone says "Of course that's how it should be done". But, bottom line, I think an EWHoF is a good idea all around (without WMF involvement). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:22, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
• A second rate popularity contest with ill-defined criteria? What could possibly go wrong. Terrible and divisive idea. You think someone's great - give 'em a barnstar, or, even better, leave them a thank you note, but to 'promote' people who will undoubtedly be divisive to others? That way grief and conflict lies. And this ignores the fact that "hall of fame" is not a worldwide concept that people everywhere readily grasp or buy into.- SchroCat (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  Schro, the procedure is akin to the Wikimedian of the Year, except that it exclusively concentrates on the English Wikipedia. There's a purpose for these initiatives, and I firmly disagree that this is a "bad idea." Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 13:25, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  You are, of course, entitled to disagree. For what it's worth, I think the Wikimedian of the Year is a fairly crap award too, being a process with no criteria and something else that divides, rather than unites. Most people are happy to do the work for the sake of the work, not to seek vacuously external praise or validation just because they've caught the eye of someone powerful or happen to be pushing a zeitgeist line of thinking. - SchroCat (talk) 14:44, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  As you haven't yet stated the purpose behind your suggestion, nor proposed a process, there isn't enough info to understand the potential benefits and costs. There's an understandable view that costs quickly outweigh benefits as any process involves more people, adding up to more total effort expended. isaacl (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Hall of fame topic; section break 3

• More awards? At this rate, all our time will be spent giving ourselves pats on the back and giving each other shiny things. While I don't agree with the more extreme anti-award views (take wiktionary for example; wikt:Template:User barnstar has been nominated for deletion twice, and been described as cheesy and gaudy. I don't think we need all that Wikipedia's tinsel to encourage people.), we shouldn't go overboard with this. Cremastra (talk) 22:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

  (the correct link is wikt:Template:User Barnstar, with a capital B. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:51, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks. Cremastra (talk) 19:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's okay if you choose not to participate in the process. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 04:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  How would one choose not to participate? I would not participate, but saying so would make it look as if I thought I stood a chance of being elected, which I do not. I imagine that most of those who would choose not to participate think the same way. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 16:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't much like anything on Wikipedia which encourages elitism, political campaigns, cliques, inequality, etc. I can imagine that many wiki-politicians would waste a lot of time campaigning to be elected to a HOF and that the results would be divisive. "How come so-and-so got elected, and I didn't?" Smallchief (talk) 21:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• I think this sort of thing is better left to other sites. Maybe the people who hang out at Wikipediocracy would create a Wikipedia Hall of Fame? Or would it become a Wikipedia Hall of Infamy? Phil Bridger (talk) 08:09, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

  I especially don't like the idea of putting infamous characters in a HOF. Follow baseball standards. Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson are not in the baseball HOF because of scandal, despite being qualified. No bad actors, no matter how famous, in a HOF. Smallchief (talk) 09:04, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

  Good point, but Wikipedia is not baseball. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 06:57, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Indeed. Baseball is a sport where defeating others on the field is encouraged. Wikipedia is a cooperative endeavour where it's frowned on. Certes (talk) 09:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, this program is designed for honoring purposes rather than competition. I hope that's clear to all. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 04:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  In that case, it seems the honor should not be of the Wikipedian itself, but of the work that they accomplished in a given area. That's why the Barnstars exist, of course. Just as WP:NPA encourages us to comment on the content and not on the creator, so too should we be aware to not place individual people on a pedestal.

  Frankly I find it disappointing that, in bringing forth the idea, the OP has not brought forth any comprehensive or detailed arguments in support of this idea and in response to the above critique. We are simply discussing a nebulous concept of recognition, which I think Wikipedia already addresses, and which if people really needed to see more of, they could use other websites or mediums for this purpose. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  And we do celebrate content, quite satisfactorily, with DYK and TFA. So there is no need for a "hall of fame", it's just more self-congratulation. Cremastra (talk) 20:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

  how about a lounge for experienced wikipedians? would that be immediately misused, or could it serve a helpful purpose? Sm8900 (talk) 13:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  That would just be a way to create an in-group, and I don't really see how it would help the project. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 13:47, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with Enby. What purpose would that serve? Aaron Liu (talk) 15:27, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  Who decides who is experienced enough? On what basis? I hope it's not edit count, which can vary enormously between people having the same overall effect. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  Like an actual lounge, or some cliquey forum that would do nothing to benefit the project? All these ideas go against our core principles. Cremastra (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  ok, fair enough; all of these points are quite valid. so then, how about a lounge which would be labeled as being open to all experienced wikipedians, plus anyone who wishes to shmooze with them? that way, we are actually opening it to everyone, but giving it an underlying theme for those who are interested.

  to use an analogy, it would be like opening a lounge for woodworkers, or one for musicians, or one for ferryboat drivers, and also admitting anyone interested in that specialty. it would be basically open to anyone, and yet the theme would be clearly stated in terms of the specialty which is its actual focus. Sm8900 (talk) 19:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  can an editor nominate themselves for this "Hall of Fame"? if so, then it might preserve the grassroots nature of wikipedia, and still have a positive effect. kind of like hanging out at the local skateboard park, and popping wheelies to show off one's skills to other fellow aficionados. Sm8900 (talk) 20:08, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  Don't we already have every single needed discussion "board" known to Man? Aaron Liu (talk) 20:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  What would actually be the point of having a lounge with this theme? Like, how would it help the project like, say, the Wikipedia:Teahouse, the Wikipedia:Help desk or the Wikipedia:Administrator's noticeboard does? Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 21:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  The idea of an "experienced user lounge" very much echoes of Wikipedia:Esperanza which, although it did result in useful derivative projects, very much had a problem back in its day with regards to ingroup/outgroup behavior. _{Duly signed,} ⛵ WaltClipper -(talk) 12:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

• One downside of this proposal is that it would involve a fair amount of the electorate's time if they are not to just elect people who they already know. That time would be better spent improving the encyclopedia, which is what we are here for (or at least are supposed to be here for). Phil Bridger (talk) 15:48, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  another idea; how about simply call it something whimsical or jocular, such as "Wikipedia League of Super-friends"? or "league of adventurers"? that way, it still retains the air of a unique league, yet it would be clear it is not anything awarding actual higher privileges here. Sm8900 (talk) 20:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  I still don't see what the actual point is. Even with a funny name, it will still be a pretty divisive thing. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 21:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

  Divisive programs, like the WP:Editor of the week, already exist. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 22:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  And that's not an excuse to have more of them. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 22:46, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  OK, if you say so. Let us see if we can reach a consensus. Wolverine XI ^{(talk to me)} 23:10, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

  Editor of the Week was set up with a specific goal in mind: to demonstrate appreciation of specific positive behaviours and collaborative spirit by its recipients, with an explicit disclaimer that it's not intended to be a judgement about their overall characteristics. It was deliberately set up as a no-big-deal award with a very lightweight process, to avoid making it something that people would argue a lot about. The original pool of candidates was lesser-known editors, in order to give them a bit more encouragement to continue contributing, but has since been broadened to anyone. It's basically a slightly fancier barnstar, with some people slapping recipients on the back with a "good job". As a result of this carefully planned design, it hasn't fostered division. isaacl (talk) 02:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

The Developing Countries WikiContest

Several editors on the Wikimedia Discord server have come together to organize a new contest focusing on improving content from parts of the world that don't get enough attention. We aim to make this a three-month event running from July through September. Ixtal and Sawyer-mcdonell have volunteered as coordinators, and they're looking for a third! The organizers are also seeking feedback from the wider community, particularly from editors with experience running wiki-events. Please leave comments, questions, and suggestions below, or sign up here. Thanks! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Timestamp on video references

If a web reference leads to a more than hour-long video, but the citation in question involves a 10-second clip, I believe that could be made more accessible to a reader. I see this being something like an optional field on the web citation, but I’m really not very sure. Aaronlearns (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

{{cite video}}? Aaron Liu (talk) 02:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

{{Cite AV media}} already has a time parameter. For an example of it being used, see the references section of Half-Life (series). ― novov (t c) 03:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for these, sorry to bother.Aaronlearns (talk) 05:38, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

For YouTube videos you could add {{rp}}, as seen at Draft:New York City Jazz Mach61 13:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Aaronlearns, the |at= parameter works in a lot of the citation templates. It accepts free-form text describing where to find the source. You could easily write something like "starting at 23 minutes, 11 seconds" WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:42, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Search bars within the article

This is just an idea I had just now that there should be little search bars in different writings such as articles, category pages, lists etc. I feel it would be more effective and easier to use Wikipedia and so you can search for exactly what you want instead of having to scroll for ages, (depending on length). Thoughts?

｡ 🎀 𝒫𝓊𝓇𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓁𝒶𝓋𝑒𝓃𝒹𝑒𝓇𝓂𝒾𝒹𝓃𝒾𝑔𝒽𝓉𝓈 𝟣𝟩 🎀 ｡ (talk) 01:00, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

It's already (kind of) a thing with Ctrl+F! Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 01:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

oh okay ｡ 🎀 𝒫𝓊𝓇𝓅𝓁𝑒𝓁𝒶𝓋𝑒𝓃𝒹𝑒𝓇𝓂𝒾𝒹𝓃𝒾𝑔𝒽𝓉𝓈 𝟣𝟩 🎀 ｡ (talk) 01:52, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I think we should just leave that to the browser. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Recreating an article that was deleted in 2023

Hi. Am I allowed to try and recreate an article that was (ironically) created by me, but was deleted later, because it didn't have good sources. I'm asking this because I'm not sure if the article will be just automatically deleted. FYI, I have gathered much better references this time, so I was wondering if I could recreate the article with new sources. --Pek (talk) 16:45, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

See WP:REFUND. More specifically it would likely be best to approach the admin that deleted the article and ask that it be recreated in user or draft space, so that you can then add the references. Once you do that, you should then ask that admin if the article is good enough to move back into mainspace. Masem (t) 16:50, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

As Masem said, with the addition that if the article was deleted via the WP:PROD procedure it can be restored to article space, but you may find that it gets nominated for deletion at WP:AFD if you don't add notability-defining sources very quickly. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

In your place, I would start a new draft, take your time writing it, and when you're done, submit it for review. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

You can recreate it the day after it's deleted if you want – As long as the content is substantially different and you've made a good faith effort to address the reason for deletion. You can do so via draftspace as suggested above, but you don't have to. Either way, the important things to be aware of are 1) there's also nothing stopping someone else immediately nominating it for deletion again and 2) repeatedly recreating something that other editors don't think should exist is the kind of thing that very quickly exhausts the community's patience. – Joe (talk) 11:16, 21 April 2024 (UTC)